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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take your real questions about faith, the Bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Speaker 2:Hey, everybody. Welcome to the last episode of the debrief ever. I'm pretty sure that Fredo's gonna get us all fired today.
Speaker 3:I can't wait.
Speaker 2:Fired up. He's gonna be dressed as Groot
Speaker 3:for Halloween because I am
Speaker 2:Groot. Because the Lord blessed you with that body. You kinda look like a tree. What can
Speaker 3:I do? We walk in, and he's like, you got the body of Groot. What a way to start a conversation.
Speaker 2:You said that you were gonna be an Oompa Loompa, and I think that's the wrong I think that's the wrong look for
Speaker 3:you. No.
Speaker 2:You need people in your life that tell you the truth. Like, we all need that. Like, somebody needs to say, bro.
Speaker 3:Be Groot and not Oompa Loompa.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Alright. Yeah. That's good word. Alright.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, guys. We are talking all things Halloween today, and I am with my good buddy, partner in crime, follower of Jesus... Fellow follower of Jesus, Alfredo Ramos.
Speaker 3:It's good to be with you,
Speaker 2:man. Excited. Diego. So I was in Spain last week in Barcelona, and I learned that in Spain, you know, because I used to always make fun of my Hispanic friends because you guys have so many last names, and I learned where that came from, was in Spain, you take... So the mother's...
Speaker 2:Your maiden name doesn't get lost, so your middle name is your father's name, and your last name is your mother's name.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so it keeps going that way. So it's very very different. So I actually like that, and I wish I would have done that, so that my... Because it makes it also easier to figure out paperwork when you're trying to investigate your relatives, but...
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:You know, in America, we put so much intention on the middle name, but there, Spanish culture was, it's your your middle name is your father's name. Your surname is your mother's name. And then the next generation, it keeps flipping. Man. So so that was something that I learned.
Speaker 2:I thought it was awesome. Love Barcelona. Have you been?
Speaker 3:I have not been. So you wanna go back.
Speaker 2:What's it called? The Sagrada Familia, which is the holy family. That's the name of the basilica there in in Barcelona. And I I learned also that what makes something a cathedral is there has to be a cardinal that resides. So for something to be a what's what's the word?
Speaker 2:A cathedral, the cardinal must reside in it. And so... Yeah. So the Sagrada Familia is not where the cardinal sits. There is a cardinal that sits in Barcelona.
Speaker 2:But it's one of the most beautiful things. I told our church, imagine if the if the the Smurfs... Are you old enough to remember them?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And JR Tolkien designed a church. That's what it looks like. Wow. I mean, it's just it's just crazy. Like, it has, like, Nintendo, Mario Brothers fruit, like, hanging on the top of...
Speaker 3:So it's very colorful.
Speaker 2:Very colorful. Very beautiful. Actually With the shire. I actually cried Wow. When I was in it.
Speaker 2:It was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Man. And so every artist has complete authority to do whatever. So when you walk in, all of the sheep and the shepherds and everybody's Japanese because a Japanese artist covered the current entry, and so he designed everybody to look like him. And I just thought, what a beautiful picture of heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the opening doors in every language, every spoken language, come all to me... Come all who are weary and heavy burden, and I will give you rest. And it's just
Speaker 3:Just kinda getting the chills.
Speaker 2:Beautiful as the doors open, this invitation. So he was... Antonio Gaudi was just ahead of his time, the the most glorious... And he didn't get to see it finished because he got hit by a bus. Seriously.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So he died, and he's buried at the bottom of it, but it's pretty cool. Wow. Not that he died or got hit by a bus, but what he built was pretty cool. So, hey, we are talking Halloween, and all know that you dress weirdly.
Speaker 2:So I thought, what what what better guest to have pastor Fredo?
Speaker 3:Last year, I was a Yeti and a Dodger Okay. Jersey for Halloween.
Speaker 2:You can't go to the Dodger this year because we're all ashamed and embarrassed.
Speaker 3:We're gone. It's...
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like the Podcast fans now. Well, not that bad. We can barely just share our... Who we are and what we love.
Speaker 2:Alright. So we're gonna... Again, I love the Podres, but they never win anything. Alright. This is from Ella from Instagram.
Speaker 2:Is it bad to dress up for Halloween? So you're going as Groot. Yeah. What do you think?
Speaker 3:Short answer, I would say no. Yeah. I think there is plenty of freedom within our Christian faith to participate and engage with Halloween in a way that makes sense to your particular conscience. Right? Paul doesn't address Halloween in Romans 14.
Speaker 3:It'd be awesome if you did. Yes. But he talks about, similar issues, like how should Christians engage with, eating certain foods that are maybe used in pagan worship practices. Right? Is it inherently wrong to do so?
Speaker 3:And I love that he comes down to, man, let everyone be convinced in their own mind. And so for you, Ella, if if it is convicting you as a follower of Jesus to not participate or not dress up, then then don't do it. You know? But, I think of young parents who have kids, who dress up as Disney princesses or Right. You know, my son who liked to be Miles Morales a few years ago, like, you know, dress up.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I might go as Willy Wonka this year. We'll see, you know. Or Groot. Or Groot.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think you should go as Groot. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, Ella, you know, let me let me say this.
Speaker 2:Anybody that comes out of a background of witchcraft or anything like that, and there are people in our church, right, that have been saved from that kind of stuff. Mhmm. I I think it... In the same way that an alcoholic may not even want to go to a bar. Right?
Speaker 2:So it's not even that that, you know, that they need to be a 100% sober from all alcohol, but they... But it's not healthy for them to go to a bar. In the same way, somebody coming out of that, and if you have this person in your small group, maybe don't throw a Halloween party. Right? So you need to consider the weaker brother in this situation, and so make sure that you're very very careful and you ask questions.
Speaker 2:What I would say is, obviously, I think there are some limits to how we dress. I was at the gym, you know, shout out to Shane Gillis who was trying to get canceled for his comments about what women wear at the gym, but it's a problem. Like, it's it's a problem. And I I saw a woman at my gym, and and her shirt said it's all about Jesus, and her outfit did not communicate that. You know, it was very, very scandly clothed, and and what I would say, you know, for all things is that is that how we dress in everything should represent what we believe, what we believe about ourselves, what we believe about sexuality, what we believe about Halloween.
Speaker 2:And so what I would say is, you know, don't go as a demon. Don't go as something occult. Don't practice witchcraft. Don't play the Ouija board. Don't go as something overly sexualized.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of women, even Christian women, like the gym, you use you use the gym as an excuse to dress in a provocative way. Don't use Halloween as an excuse to dress in overly sexual way. I mean, I think, you know, in the Christian community, right, it's so important that we love our fellow sisters in Christ as our sisters. Mhmm. And so I would say, you know, wear an outfit that helps me do that as your brother in Christ.
Speaker 2:I think that we we live in a culture that already objectifies women and, you know, oftentimes engages in the occult. But what what I wanna say is I I think there's this there's this movement in the church that our faith is is is defined by what we don't do. So And we gotta be very careful because that's how Jews in the first century defined their faith, and that's what Jesus railed against.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm not going to eat with you. I'm not gonna wear these certain clothes. I'm not gonna participate in this. And so the Jewish person thought God was pleased with them by by completely pulling away from the world and culture, and I know that's something that you're concerned about. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And Jesus engaged culture. Jesus pressed into situations that that most first century Jews would be completely uncomfortable with. And what I would say to everyone listening is there's... You know, people say, well, Halloween has pagan roots. Everything has pagan roots.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, do you know... You guys know what Wednesday is? It's Woden's Day to the god of Woden. Do you guys know what Thursday is?
Speaker 2:It's Thor's Day, the god of Thor. Like, the the... So so this idea that somehow we just divorce ourselves from all things, you know, false gods, occult, like, whole culture is steeped in this. And what the church has historically decided, and this is all across the world is we don't abstain from these things, we conquer these things. So, like, if you had a pagan site, the church didn't say, you know, ban that site or stay...
Speaker 2:They built a church on it. They built a church over and on top of that. And so there was a movement, I think it was by the Quakers actually, who wanted to change our days. Are you guys ready for this level of Christian creativity? This was their big idea.
Speaker 2:Okay. Day one, day two, day three, day four, day... Anybody wanna know why we lost that creative argument? And and so here... Here's here's how the church put...
Speaker 2:Pushed back. Nobody thinks of Thursday as Thorsday anymore. I don't think
Speaker 3:It's just
Speaker 2:Thors Day. Anybody, except for Christians, think of... And and people who practice witchcraft, don't think of Halloween as the Devil's Day anymore. It's it's a day where we we celebrate. It's a day where we we gather together.
Speaker 2:We have fun. We have a good time. None of those things are bad. Worshiping the devil, worshiping demons, practicing witchcraft, all that's bad. Don't do that.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that. I remember years ago, I went to a party on Halloween and they were They were playing a Ouija board. I've never played it. I had one experience with it when I was 15 years old and I was at a party, and somebody said it keeps spelling your name. My name.
Speaker 2:And it really bothered me. I'm out. One of my female friends, she was a year older than me, she was crying and she said, Matt, I'm not making it. Spell your name. And so I I feel like there's been a call on my life from God, and there's been a pull from the devil both both ways my whole life.
Speaker 2:And so, especially those of us who are more sensitive to the spiritual realm and world, really, really be careful with this stuff. But I think it's important, and and you and I talked about this just a little bit. It's the one day a year your neighbors come over and you can actually meet them. A 100%. And in California, I hope that you have a heart for mission.
Speaker 2:A lot of these teachings come from churches that have have no desire to reach their community for Christ. So it's literally us four and no more. They think God is gonna be pleased by them holding up in this castle, protecting our theology, and it's like, look, we're supposed to be missional, we're supposed to go into the world, and we're going to engage with things that that may make us uncomfortable, and that's actually the commandment of Jesus, and I think a lot of Christians miss this. And so nowadays, with algorithms, with Instagram, with TikTok, like, can find a whole host of people that will tell you not to do this, it's just your algorithm. It doesn't represent what the whole church thinks.
Speaker 2:Every year I argue, this is the best day to meet your neighbors, have candy, decorate your house in a positive way, something that doesn't offend you, and meet them.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And exchange numbers, you know, meet your neighbors, meet their kids, oh and ah over their costumes. And, yeah, you know, there's kids that come up with scary costumes, but I... I'm not scared. Yeah. Like, it's it's a kid in a in a mask.
Speaker 2:And so I just think it's such a great opportunity for us as the church to celebrate childhood, which is something that we rob children by oversexualizing everything. A lot of kids don't get childhood, and I believe fantasy is a huge part of childhood. Playing with my toys, imagining, dressing up, I think that's something that healthy, normal, little Christian boys, little Christian girls, or non Christian boys and non Christian girls want to do and should do. Yeah. And fantasy is such an important part of childhood, and, you know, I remember being a kid at a Baptist church, and my mom and dad got, you know, derailed because my brother and I celebrated.
Speaker 2:And by celebrated, I mean, we we went trick or treating. Yeah. You know, like, we didn't sacrifice a goat or anything like that. We weren't trick treating.
Speaker 3:Someone in a dead spirit.
Speaker 2:And we came to church afterwards, and some people in our church were offended because they had not allowed their kids to trick or treat. And so, you know, we do Candy Rush at Sandals, and, you know, people have all kinds of opinions. But anytime you can open the doors of the church and invite the community in for candy, yeah, we might get some spooky costumes. But you know what? I think Jesus can handle it.
Speaker 2:Like, he he he descended onto hell. I don't know if you know this, but he won.
Speaker 3:Yeah. He did. He conquered
Speaker 2:Like, Satan lost. Yeah. I think he can handle a spooky costume at church on Saturday night.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:So I I just don't worry about it. But again, dress... You know, it's not an opportunity to sin. Mhmm. And so don't dress overly sexual.
Speaker 2:I I would not engage in something demonic or cursed, you know, but but engage in creativity. Do something fun. You know, I think I said, I think you should go as Groot. I think that'd be hilarious.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But Oompa Loompas are scary. Oompa. Yeah. It... Oh, man.
Speaker 2:When I watched that movie in the seventies, it's it terrifies
Speaker 3:It terrifies me. Was a trip.
Speaker 2:I was afraid it was little orange people, man. It was scary. Yeah. So... Yeah.
Speaker 2:Any other thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I would just say, Ella, you know, maybe the question isn't always to, like, frame it as, is it bad to dress up for Halloween or is it bad to do this? But really, a helpful way for me that I've I've navigated this issue and really any other cultural issue has been, what does it look like to be faithful to Jesus during Halloween time? You kinda touched on this a moment ago, but there is like this beautiful movement of people coming to Christianity, which is great, particularly in America. There's not just a spiritual openness, but people are coming to Jesus.
Speaker 3:But with it is like this strange version of holiness that is all about abstaining from everything Yes. In culture, And you and holiness is not just what I don't participate in, but it's what I'm consecrated to. Right. So as Christians, we're consecrated to Jesus for him, for his glory, for his kingdom, and so what is it like to be faithful to him as I engage my neighbors when they knock on my door and when I pass out Reese's cups to kids who are dressed up as Spider Man, you know? And so that's really the way I think about it.
Speaker 3:It's not so much is this bad or is this good, but what does it look like for me to be faithful to Jesus during this particular time of the year? And then I think from there, you just kinda navigate through it, you know.
Speaker 2:So And again, you know, I think everyone, you need to follow your own conscience. You need to ask God, what should I do? And I think a lot of Christians wanna pass off their own conscience and the Holy Spirit's influence in their life by just doing what everybody else does. Yeah. And just say, Lord, what, you know, what is in this for me?
Speaker 2:And I'm grateful that I had parents that allowed me to celebrate. I mean, some of my greatest memories, you know, I think about my mom's eightieth birthday. My cousin is there. He's not a believer. You know, he's as far from God as you could possibly be.
Speaker 2:Why did he come to my mother's eightieth birthday party? Because my mom would sew his costumes. Wow. And his best memories as a child come from the creativity that my mom allowed. And he loves his aunt Peggy, who is a Christian, who was a pastor's wife.
Speaker 2:And so, like, we need... There are enough negative contacts with Christians and with churches in the world. We need to really work hard at having those positive contacts, that positive moment. You know, every single weekend when I'm preaching, right, I'm trying to overcome the church is all about money. The church hurts people.
Speaker 2:The church doesn't actually care about me. The church is all about rules and regulations and doesn't care about relations. Like, I'm trying to overcome all these hills, and so if somebody can go, okay, so they're not just a bunch of smug, you know, you know, just absolutely no fun individuals, which some Christians are. Oh, for sure. You know?
Speaker 2:For sure. But they can have a good time. And again, I think joy is something that we should practice as Christians. And again, I'm not talking about satanic worship. That's wrong and off, don't do that.
Speaker 2:But we should be able to celebrate. I mean, there are Christians, you know, I mean, you can... That won't have a tree because the Christmas tree is the devil. They they... I I I literally...
Speaker 2:Some of the nastiest letters I got this year is that, you know, our church celebrates Easter. There are people now... Because any stupid opinion can just spread like wildfire on the Internet, and there's a lot of Christians out there that believe Easter comes from a pagan tradition. And I don't know if you guys know this. There's one line by a Catholic monk, one line, who may or may not mention a god named Eostre, and and we don't know.
Speaker 2:That... That's all we know. And all the rumors, all of that stuff, Easter is pagan. We we we just... We...
Speaker 2:Maybe. Probably not. One line, some guy... What, you know, it's just it's just crazy the things that people believe, and nobody actually knows history anymore. Like, I I mean, how many of our listeners ever thought that Thursday was Thursday?
Speaker 3:Probably. There's very few.
Speaker 2:There's just a lot of stuff about our past we just don't know. Mhmm. And, you know, people in history were trying to survive, they didn't write everything down.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, people are against Easter, people are against Christmas trees, you know, people are against yule logs, and may... Maybe that was pagan. Right? But it's not now. Dang.
Speaker 2:The church... Right right... It's a Christian celebration. A Christmas tree is a beautiful thing. The sign of everlasting life.
Speaker 2:Right? What is an evergreen? It's evergreen. Jesus has come that we may have life. And so, you know, a Christmas tree, I guess, could be a pagan tool, but it also could be a really positive, beautiful thing for a family.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But Christians, like, if you're looking for ways not to engage in culture, you know, there's gonna be endless chatter online for you to do this. Oh, for sure. What I found is it's just mostly a lot of people talking about stuff they don't know. And so, you know, the thing with Easter, you know, people... Easter eggs.
Speaker 2:Well, where that comes from, you know, a lot of Christians, you know, would abstain from eggs for Lent, and then they would paint them red for the blood of Jesus. And so Easter morning was a celebration of life, and they got to eat protein again. They hadn't done that because they were poor and starving, and and so they would do that. Now it may have had other influences and come from other places, but again, is Thursday is Thursday the day you worship Thor? Or is it the day you're like, Friday's almost...
Speaker 3:Friday's almost here, man.
Speaker 2:And I can't remember what Friday is. Friday's something too. It's like friggin's day or something. You know? Let me let me look that up because that might be a...
Speaker 2:That sounds like a cuss word.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. A Christian cuss word.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sorry. I I didn't mean that.
Speaker 3:Friggin's day.
Speaker 2:Friggin. Yeah. I forgot what it is. Yeah. I lost it.
Speaker 2:I had it.
Speaker 1:It's Friggs Day.
Speaker 2:Friggs Day.
Speaker 3:Friggs Friggs Day. Day.
Speaker 1:Friggs Friggs Friggs
Speaker 2:Friggs Day. So it honors the Norse goddess of love. Wow. Right? It's Friday, bro.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank God it's Friday.
Speaker 3:Yeah. TGIF.
Speaker 2:TGIF. So, you know, stuff like that. And I'm pretty sure, you know, Sunday is the sun's day, Monday, I think is the moon's day, you know, March is the goddess of Mars, the goddess of war, you know, like, I mean, so much of every part of our life is pagan because the world was pagan, and Christianity through Christ invaded a very pagan world.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, you know, we can... You know, it's so funny, you know, I have so many friends that are Irish. You know, Saint Patrick wasn't Irish? He's a Welsh slave. He was he was trafficked Right.
Speaker 2:Because he was he he was found, and he was smuggled as a slave to Ireland, and, oh, guess what? Led the entire island to Christ.
Speaker 3:They went back and preached on
Speaker 2:it. Yeah. Yeah. And most people think, by the way, there's no snakes in Ireland, it's that he drove out the devil. He drove out evil.
Speaker 2:So there was never snakes. Right? So there's just there's just all this stuff that, you know, you don't need to be a Wikipedia expert. Just don't sin. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I and I don't think celebrating Halloween is a sin. You know, it it it might not be good for some people, but I think it's important. So the question is, should we as a church engage in Halloween activities? How does God see us when we engage in activities meant to celebrate evil? Well, we shouldn't engage in anything meant to celebrate evil.
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 2:But what I think you and I have argued is is that Halloween may or may not, at some point, have been meant to celebrate evil. You know, it comes, I I believe, from Scottish and Celtic ideas of of trying to avoid the dead, and so they use pumpkins and stuff like that. But who knows, man? I mean Yeah. America is this melting pot of cultures, and and things have changed.
Speaker 2:And and really what it is, is it comes back to good old capitalism, and in the nineteen fifties, they could sell costumes and candy, and they figured out a way to market that. Just like Santa Claus wasn't red, you know who made him red? Do you guys know?
Speaker 3:Coca Cola.
Speaker 2:Coca Cola. You know? And polar bears don't drink Coke.
Speaker 3:They don't?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I think in in this question, Miguel, again, I I would just, yeah, gently push back on if this activity is always meant to celebrate evil. Like on a very personal level, my wife and son were born on Halloween.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There we go.
Speaker 3:So, you know, it's... You can imagine how challenging it is when we kinda swim through Christian subculture Right. Where it sees this day as the devil's day where it's like, no, we're not celebrating death here. We're celebrating life here. Amen.
Speaker 3:You know? And so we're excited to, yeah, honor their lives. God brought them to earth that day, you know, they were born, and so we have a lot to celebrate that day
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And do so in a way that, yeah, honors them and also allows us to have a good time, engage with our neighbors.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I
Speaker 3:love And maybe I dress up as Groot, you know. So...
Speaker 2:So, you know, at Sandals, like I said, we have Candy Rush. It's a great opportunity to invite people, especially families now who are concerned about, their kid getting run over by a teenager on an e bike. I mean, that's a legit concern. Well, we don't allow people to ride e bikes through the church halls. So, know, teenagers, God bless them, they throw pumpkins.
Speaker 2:Stuff like that happens, you know?
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so it's a safe place for the community to come to dress up, to celebrate, for us to oh and on, oh, you're so cute, or oh, you're so handsome, you know, or... Creative costume. Yeah. Creative costume. And and I get that reference.
Speaker 2:And scary ones come too, and it's fine. You know, don't I, you know, I don't pull aside the scary kids and be like, you know, you're Satan's in your heart. I I don't say that. I'm glad they're here because here's what you wanna create, Miguel. You want to allow young people and children especially to have a good time at church.
Speaker 2:And when I when I was sinning and and fell away from God, what drew me back to the church wasn't just God, it was I had great experiences at the church. I had people who saw me, who loved me, who ooed and awed over me, and I didn't get that in the culture. I got that in the local church. And so we need to learn to celebrate that, to stop and... And by the way, when you're when you're oohing and awing over a costume, you're not just acknowledging the cute kid because the kid didn't make the costume, the mom and dad did.
Speaker 2:You're acknowledging their work. You're acknowledging that they're investing in their kids, that they're providing a childhood and a safe place for them to to to grow up. And those are beautiful things in our culture today. And a mom and dad probably spent money on it, they spent time on it, and it's a beautiful thing to acknowledge. We all wanna celebrate Miguel, parents who invest in their children.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And so I think it's just it's just how you look at it. And, you know, I was... I I... It's just so easy to be against.
Speaker 2:And so I was getting my my haircut this week and and the gal who's cut my hair, she's Catholic, and she was wanting to know... She said, well, you're Christian and I'm Catholic. So right... So automatically the discussion begins with we're against each other. And and in that moment, said, no, no, actually, we all used to be Catholic.
Speaker 2:And so I said, I'm called a Protestant because Catholic priests protested against the abuses of the church and the pope. We all used to be Catholic. We wanted to be Catholic, but ultimately, it didn't end up that way. But Catholic priests wanted to get back to what the church was, and that's why it's called the Reformation. We wanted to reform the church Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Not to do away with it. Nobody ever wanted two churches. But Catholicism refused to change. And so Catholic priests who wanted to change created the Reformation. And so I said, we're not two separate things.
Speaker 2:We're we're two branches of one thing. Yeah. And so... But see what I'm saying? Instead of saying you're this, you're that, instead of...
Speaker 2:Which is what I think the world is constantly trying to do to divide us, said, no. No. We're closer together than you think.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's really, really important. And and again, you know, people like to celebrate Halloween.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so by by being against that, what we're doing is we're not engaging with culture. And I think there are some who think that's a good thing. I don't think it is. I I don't think that you can be missional and not engage in culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I wish more Christians saw themselves as missionaries than, you know, here's the list of things I don't do. So any more thoughts? I talk too much.
Speaker 3:No. That was great, man. I think, yeah, especially on the culture piece. I think of like Andy Crouch's book. A number of years ago, he wrote this book on culture making, and he said Christians will either try to copy culture.
Speaker 3:Right? So we just kinda duplicate it, make a Jesus version of it. We do this a lot with our music, clothing. They will critique it, here's where you're wrong. Right?
Speaker 3:They'll completely condemn it. We're not gonna be a part of that. You're all going to hell. And his observation and offer is that we create within it. Right?
Speaker 3:So we utilize the culture that we all have to engage with and swim through and just create something good out of it. Yeah. You know, create a good conversation with someone, create an opportunity to lead someone to Jesus, or just be a good neighbor and give them a great candy, you know, and celebrate, yeah, whatever they're whatever they're wearing. So I think the fun thing about costumes is it creates a lot of common ground. Like, oh, shoot.
Speaker 3:I get that reference from that old show or that old movie, you know. So particularly in a moment where we're so driven to screens, we're so driven towards division, it's kind of a strange irony and beauty that a costume actually has a way of creating common ground again with someone. Yeah. You know? No.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 3:And and creating a shared human experience. So... Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and just saying this, you know, we used to go to pastor Aurelio's house. So he was the campus pastor here for a bit, and we would go there. And it was just a good opportunity for me to be walking the streets and to be seen. Hey, it's pastor Matt. Hey.
Speaker 2:You know, and I wasn't in a costume. I was just, I guess, dressed as myself, you know, but I would walk with his kids door to door, knocking on doors, now it freaks some people out, you know, it's Halloween and your pastor shows up to your door while you're delivering candy.
Speaker 3:But you're dressed as Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's dressed as Kevin Bacon. And and, you know, it's a good time to engage with your community, and I think that that's so important, you know. So that's good. Alright.
Speaker 2:So this is from Angie, Moreno Valley. Angie, thank you so much for writing in. We appreciate you. As Christians, is it okay to enjoy horror movies or attend haunted houses, or should we avoid them altogether? How do we discern...
Speaker 2:I love that word, Angie.
Speaker 3:That's great.
Speaker 2:The line between entertainment and engaging with things that don't honor God. I'm gonna go first and then I'll let you go. I don't... I've never done well with horror. Now, I think it would be really easy for me to make that sound like my...
Speaker 2:Like I'm being more righteous than people. I just don't deal well with it. It bothers me. I have bad dreams about it. I'm very uncomfortable in engaging with most horror.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Now I like a... Like, if it's an alien chasing you or a dinosaur, I love that. So I like like Jurassic Park, stuff like that. So I I like to be like like like boo, like like that.
Speaker 3:Little jump scare?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I like a jump scare.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I don't like demonic things. They really really bother me. Like, I couldn't even get into Widow's Bay. Oh.
Speaker 2:Widow's So Bay, which is a very popular show right now. No judgment at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I watched the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I I had a hard time sleeping a couple nights.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's it's
Speaker 2:it's it's hard to... It... You know, it really really bothered me. And again, that's no judgment to anybody who loves Widow's Bay. Some people just are are are are are like stuff like that, and I and I wanna be...
Speaker 2:I don't wanna come off as self righteous or, like, I I wouldn't want to. I, on the other hand, have real issues with nudity. So, like, just for me personally, because when I was a young man, I I looked at pornography so much, and so, you know, my son's been really good. You know, he... We went to see Resident Evil.
Speaker 2:That didn't
Speaker 3:because bother
Speaker 2:that's, like, zombie stuff.
Speaker 3:It doesn't
Speaker 2:bother me. It's weird science, you know, plague, we turn into monsters, like stuff like that doesn't bother me, but he's like, dad, dad. He's like, there might be nudity. I don't know. And I was like, it's funny your son is telling his dad there might be...
Speaker 2:Like, okay,
Speaker 3:I've seen... Got your back.
Speaker 2:I've seen it. Love it. But he knows that I'm just not about that. And so for... Again, for me, just like the the person who's participating in witchcraft, Halloween might be off limits for them.
Speaker 2:For me, nudity, which is not a sin, I mean, nudity can be artistic. The female body can can be, is beautiful. It can be used in artwork just as a male body can be. But for me, it's just something that I I just have decided to avoid because of my own background
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:As a young man. And that's a boundary that I've drawn for me. You know, and again, I... I've done stuff like that with alcohol. You know, you and I've had that discussion.
Speaker 2:I drink almost never. And that's just because I've drawn a health boundary for me because my dad has dementia, and my doctor, his doctor said anything affects your brain affects your brain. And I went, okay, I don't need to do that because we got four generations of people with dementia. But that's not a religious, like, righteousness thing. It's...
Speaker 2:It was just as a health decision. Yeah. So I would just say, watch what you can watch, you know, pray through it. You know, we watched years ago... Oh gosh, what was the what was the zombie show that went crazy on TV?
Speaker 3:The Walking Dead.
Speaker 2:So we watched The Walking Dead, and I was a huge fan until... Carl. Yeah. There was a moment, there was a scene there was a scene in the in the show where this guy beats these people with a baseball bat. So it's not aliens.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. That was And here's the thing
Speaker 3:The governor, I think?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. It was intense. I want everyone listening. I never watched again.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I never watched another episode because I felt like I was watching some sadistic porn, like, where people get off... Almost senseless. Yes. It was just... It was so gruesome.
Speaker 2:And again, those are real people. So now if they're aliens... I mean, even that way, you know, I don't want just grotesque violence, but make believe things don't bother me when they die. Mhmm. Real people suffering...
Speaker 2:Like, can't watch Saving Private Ryan. Like, I I watched that one time, and I was not okay for a year. Yeah. You know? There's a scene in that movie where guys are fighting, and and there's...
Speaker 2:It comes down to two guys, a German and an American with a knife, and he says, you don't you don't have to do this. And he stabs him. I needed therapy after that. And I I remember walking out of the theater, and I just said, god, I'll do whatever you want. Thank god I didn't have to do that.
Speaker 2:Like, killing people you don't know. Yeah. Like, think about... None of these Germans have done anything. It's it's Hitler and the Nazis.
Speaker 2:They're on the front line. These Americans, right, they they don't even know these Germans, and then you end up having to kill each other because of these super elitist individuals who made these decisions. And I'm not saying America was wrong. I'm just saying these German guys, a lot of them were kids at the end. You know?
Speaker 2:So so stuff like that bothers me. So violence... I would say I have more of a hard time with with violence than I do with horror.
Speaker 3:Consensus violence. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, let me push back before you jump in. Couple years ago, I went to see... This twenty years ago, because Carlos Whitaker was on staff then. I went to see the Exorcism of Emily Rose. I know.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna use this movie right now and I respond to those... Dude, yeah.
Speaker 2:Terrifying. So this is a true story. So The Exorcism of Emily Rose is a movie documenting the church doing exorcism. I've done exorcisms. The devil's real.
Speaker 2:There's a scene in that movie where the judge says, are you telling me it was Satan? And when he said that, we were in the movie theater. We had an earthquake in Riverside at that exact moment. This is a true story. Wow.
Speaker 2:And Carlos Witter can can aim in this. He jumped out of his seat and ran out of the theater, left me in the theater alone. Because the whole theater shook while we were in there. It was terrifying. Wow.
Speaker 2:But here's why I like demonic horror, because it is real. And I don't... When I say I like it, I don't watch it. But I want people to know the spiritual realm is real. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And one of Satan's best games is camouflage. Mhmm. People think it's all fake.
Speaker 3:We're not actually there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's there's a great book called People of the Lie written by M. Scott Peck. You wanna talk about a scary book. So he was a therapist for the United States Army, and I think it's called...
Speaker 2:Can you guys... Do... Can you have Internet? I think it's called something My Lai, the My Lai Massacre. And it was in Vietnam, and a bunch of Vietnam soldiers, black, white, Jewish, Hispanic officers, and enlisted, killed this whole village of Vietnamese people.
Speaker 2:And so it's this huge case. Why do good people write different religions, different backgrounds, different... Why did they why did they commit such an atrocity? And the United States Army wanted to understand why. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I mean, all all war... There's atrocity in all war, but this was this was bad. They they killed the whole village.
Speaker 3:There's darkness there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Men, women, kids. Yeah. And no one spoke out against it. Everyone just...
Speaker 2:Even the people that didn't... They don't... So m Scott Peck was... He was called upon to investigate why. Why does this happen?
Speaker 2:Because, you know, you want soldiers to kill, but you don't want them to be evil. Right? And so what he said was, as he was pursuing this, he was an atheist. He discovered evil. And what he said was, if evil is real, then I wonder if god is real.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so it was actually darkness that led him to the light. Yeah. And this is what happens in many people's lives. It it...
Speaker 2:It's not the good things in life that lead them to God. It's evil. Yeah. And they encounter it, and it scares them, and they run to the light. And so while I may not wanna watch a horror film or a demonic film, I think it has a place, because I want people to know it's real, and I believe that it's real.
Speaker 2:And and I I say this all the time at the church, you know, when Stephanie... She's Schaefer now. Stephanie Keane was my assistant. We got a phone call. Hey, come to our house.
Speaker 2:It's haunted. Like, they were saying, like, furniture's moving, things are going all over the place, and I was like, I'll go. And she was freaked. And she's like, I mean, she was like, so scared to go in this house. And I said, she's like, why aren't you scared?
Speaker 2:I said, I don't have to outrun the demon. I said, just have to outrun you. No. She was so mad at me. And, you know, here's the thing is most of the time, listen to me, it's just noise.
Speaker 2:It's a creaky old house. It's your imagination sometimes. It's a real fish. And in this instance, I think it was a real issue. And we prayed and delivered the house, and there was a real change.
Speaker 2:And so I've told that story on episodes past on Debrief, so I don't wanna get into it. But there was an evil presence in the house. And this woman was ready to sell her house. She's like, I'm out of here. I'm never living here again.
Speaker 2:And I was actually talking to a director friend of mine in Hollywood, and they were making a movie, and they had to move the entire staff out of a house. They were making it in Louisiana. And he told me, he said, look, man. He's like, don't know what I believe about ghosts. He's like, there's something in that house.
Speaker 2:Like, none of the cast would stay. No one would go there, and they had to literally spend, like, $30,000 on new air air... A r... Airbnb's moved because like no no one no one was willing to work. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're like, what happened there? The devil's real, but so is God. And so my hope is that as bad as darkness is, if it leads one person to the light, it's worth it. And so so it's why I didn't like Widow's Bay.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So spoiler alert, if you're not... If you if you're gonna watch it, shut this off because I'm gonna spoil it.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:Here we go. You know, I didn't like that the priest killed himself. Oh. Because when we face evil, it's clergy's responsibility to defend the locals, not to run and hide. I thought I thought how lame is that that the priest is afraid of this demon that's on this island.
Speaker 2:That's fair. And and he is what the people needed. Right. And he was afraid of evil and killed himself, which I just think is was pathetic. So that's what...
Speaker 2:It turned me off. I was like, oh. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, don't wanna...... Missing the plot point, but I am curious because I felt like they they didn't fully answer why he made that decision. Obviously, he was under that kinda trance and, like, dream. He had seen some darkness, you know. But...
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think that's a... Yeah. That's a fair critique for sure. That's good.
Speaker 2:A true priest would never be afraid of evil. A true pastor would never be afraid of evil. Amen. Like, I mean, I've I've had to call 911 before. Like, we...
Speaker 2:We've done a deep healing that went bad, and we called the cops because I could not control this young lady. Like, she was terrifying. And you you wanna you wanna have a funny 911 call when the cops show up, and you're like, it's the devil in that room. And these guys are just like... I mean, imagine rolling up to a church, and they're like, what?
Speaker 2:I'm like, no. No. That's the devil. She needs to be fifty one fifty ed. And I mean, I I've told this story before.
Speaker 2:She crawled up the wall backwards, dude, right in front of me. I was like, I'm out. So... But I did pray with her later, and we had some parameters. We prayed, we talked, and she was healed.
Speaker 2:She was delivered. She was a UCR student, and it started with her with manifestations of something pressing into her on the bed. Wow. And I think she got into some stuff, some some sexual stuff with a roommate, and and then invited other darkness into her life. But I was not prepared for that.
Speaker 2:Thought it was a college girl. Yeah. And Wow. It was not. You know.
Speaker 2:There's like the seven sons of Sceva. They go into... Keep that demon out in book of acts, and he's like, I know who Paul is.
Speaker 3:Jesus, I know Paul. Know, but...
Speaker 2:He's like, you do, I do not. And he beat them bloody.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They they left. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I I was not prepared for that one. But I would just say this, evil is real. Don't get into darkness. Don't invite that stuff in your life. And for me, I feel like since I was a I was a teenager, there's always been a spiritual pull on my life.
Speaker 2:You know, like, some people can sing, some people can do math, some people, you know, like everybody has their gifts. Right? I've always been super aware of the spiritual world from the time that I was... I could see darkness when I was a kid. I could see darkness in people.
Speaker 2:Wow. I could see light in people. Like, the Lord has has made me deeply aware of a spiritual realm. And so when I engage in horror movies and stuff like that, it really affects me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So... Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and some people can watch it and it doesn't bother them at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like watching a football game. Yeah. You know? But for me, it really it really messes with me. And I I feel like almost for me, it's like I'm I'm opening the window just a little too wide of that world into me.
Speaker 2:And I I don't... I... I'm already sensitive enough, just like with nudity. I've already I've already had enough of that in my life. I don't wanna I don't wanna give it any more attention in my life.
Speaker 2:And so and so that's where I think what the church does is maybe a pastor has an issue with that, and then they, you know... And it's all... You know, it's always funny to me. You know, guys that are, like, just super, you know, loud about sex and stuff, they're always the ones that end up having affairs. You know, the guys that need to build the biggest walls are are usually the ones with the deepest darkness.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know? And so that... That's... I'm always like...
Speaker 3:There is an interesting correlation Yeah. At times, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so, you know, when I was a when I was a kid at youth camp, girls and boys weren't allowed to swim in the swimming pool at the same time. I kid you not. And so and so then they compromised and put t shirts on the girls, because god knows that would That solve everything. A wet t shirt solves everything, and I'm just like, these guys.
Speaker 2:But I remember the pastor that was the most upset. He actually took all of his kids out of camp. So think about the decisions that were gonna be made that week, lives were gonna be changed, He took his whole church home. That guy left his wife for his secretary later that year. So it was things he was dealing with Yeah.
Speaker 2:That he, I think... Projected. He projected on a bunch of kids that were trying to have fun at youth camp, and that stuck with me. So so I'll just say this. I'm super sensitive.
Speaker 2:I I I think you can you can engage in horror. Like, Widows of Bay didn't bother you at all.
Speaker 3:Oh, no. I mean, it's it's pretty it's pretty scary for sure. Yeah. I I thoroughly enjoyed the story, the principle behind it, you know, that that people can make bad decisions, and it has ramifications, generational. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know? I like the callback to other films like Jaws and other, you know, horror and stuff like that. The writing was creative. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's some elements to it. Yeah. You know, we could we we could chat more if someone No. I I'm not saying... Wants my thoughts
Speaker 2:on So I want everybody to hear me. I'm not saying don't watch it. I'm just saying
Speaker 3:Yeah. For
Speaker 2:me, I didn't sleep well afterward.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There's some there's some spooky stuff
Speaker 2:for sure.
Speaker 3:Angie, I love this question. I've I've enjoyed all the questions so far, but this one in particular, to enjoy horror movie... You know, is it okay to enjoy horror movies or attend haunted houses? I think, first, there's a great book I'd recommend to you called The Stories We Tell by Mike Cosper. He used to pastor in Louisville, Kentucky where I attended seminary for some time, and he has a whole chapter dedicated to horror, and he unpacks a lot of what you've shared, that there's a reality there in these kinds of stories that we should pay attention to, right?
Speaker 3:So the human curiosity towards spirituality, towards darkness reveals the truth that's there. Right? That there is a darkness in real life, there is a darkness in humanity, in the world I think we're trying to make sense of. That I believe the story of the Bible gives us a great understanding towards. Right?
Speaker 3:And so when it comes to you as a Christian, is it okay? I would say, what what does your own personal conviction say? Like, where is your conscience in this? Going back to Paul in Romans 14, you know, where do you land personally? But then also your community.
Speaker 3:Like, do you have some good people in your family, in your life, also believers who can tell you this is how they're experiencing you because of the way that you engage in horror, or because of the way that you go to, you know, haunted houses. I think conscience and community can be helpful parameters for how we navigate as Christians certain things that we engage with. Movies, films, TV shows, whether they be horror, comedy. Right? One thing I think they do help us do is when you choose to watch a show or a movie, you're choosing to look at the world through the lens of a director.
Speaker 3:Right. So it does create a kind of empathy. Here is their point of view. Right. Here, and they're kind of guiding you through a particular story.
Speaker 3:Now their view of morality, God, people, sexuality, all of that is up in the air, right? But you're choosing to empathize to the degree that you see the world through their lens, literally and metaphorically, right? And so I think there is a need for entertainment, but it does come down to, yeah, personally, what are you okay with? You know, what kind of boundaries will you set? I I love that you used the word discern, discern the line between entertainment and engaging with things that don't honor God, because there is a way in which we cross personally that I think could be super unhelpful.
Speaker 3:But yeah, horror movies definitely communicate reality, the the darkness that is very present, and I think it's important that we bear in mind like what those things are particularly the same. You mentioned the Exorcism of Emily Rose Yeah. Directed by a Christian, Scott Derrickson. Yeah. Went to Biola, then went to, I think, USC Film School.
Speaker 3:So he is a Christian. Yeah. And there is a real principle there, you know? And so I love that you mentioned The Walking Dead too because at that same moment, I think Ash and I were done with it too. Because there is, I think, some point, a senselessness Yes.
Speaker 3:To violence or to evil where it's like, it's not really serving a purpose to the story, it's... The meaning is very obscure, right? And so there is a way in which I think stories can be done, movies can be done, where the meaning is really clear. And there is a principle to to draw from, you know, and to learn from. But sometimes there is a senselessness to either the violence, the whore, the nudity, which is just kinda there, I think, to get people to go and see it right, and to play into the brokenness of humanity.
Speaker 3:But I think that's when you begin to cross the line. It's like, it's just kinda senseless. It doesn't really serve a purpose, you know? Yeah. That I think is is worth examining and saying, hey, is this even...
Speaker 3:Yeah. Do I need to engage in this? Do I need to watch this? You know?
Speaker 2:Well, I think all Christians need to pay attention to the inner thermometer, and when it's too hot or too cold something, you you need to be able to pull out. I think sometimes as fans, right, so I would say we were Walking Dead fans. Like, we didn't miss. We we gathered together with Christians from our church. We watched every week.
Speaker 2:You know, I love dystopian, end of the world. I kinda gravitate towards that. Like, my favorite show this last year was Silo. Like, I love Silo for those who haven't seen it. You know, I think that every young person should watch that because it's just interesting, the evil that can occur when somebody is trying to make the world a better place.
Speaker 2:And Yeah. You know, you know, it's just it's it's just so interesting. But I lost my train of thought. I can't remember what I was singing. Sorry.
Speaker 2:I lost you.
Speaker 3:Silo. Yeah. Evil. Dystopia.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So I was saying, oh, With your thermometer, you need to be willing, like like as a... And I and I think this is true in the political process left and right. People treat politics like sports teams. They're just...
Speaker 2:No matter what somebody does or is doing, I'm a Democrat or I'm a Republican, I'm a Laker fan and a Dodger fan, and we don't we don't just want people to be so immersed in being fans that they can't think anymore. And you need to be able to say, okay, there's a point at which I'm not gonna watch this anymore. And so, you know, sports teams can engage in behavior, have athletes that are just really bad people, and you have to decide, you know, do my principles matter as I root for my team? And I think this is true across everything. And so, like, for me, I really like this show, but the director crossed the line for me that I was unwilling to go.
Speaker 2:Don't wanna watch human beings have their heads bashed in. That's not something that I wanna be a part of. And we... It was tough because we watched that show with our kids, and I was like, I'm out and here's why. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so... And and so for me, you know, the same thing is true with sex, you know. There's there's nothing wrong with female anatomy or male anatomy. That is not in and of itself sinful, but how it's being portrayed, you know, in a movie or a show. And I mean, this is even like with our kids with Disney.
Speaker 2:When they... When the show makes the parents idiots Mhmm. And the kids know better. I'm always like, that's... That is not something that I want our kids to think or feel.
Speaker 2:Because that's that's... If that is the case, it's... That's not right. Mhmm. You know, parents should know better and should be able to morally guide and intellectually guide children.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the role. And so so I just think you have to follow your own conscience and then know yourself. Know know know what... Because, you know, my my wife and I, nudity does not bother her. It does not trip her up at all.
Speaker 2:She doesn't have that background. But if we wanna wanna watch a show together, then she has to choose not to watch that, because it's it's just not for me. Yeah. So... And we used to do that Christian app.
Speaker 2:What's that Christian app where they edit it for you?
Speaker 1:Oh, is it Angel?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Angel sounds like... Yeah. So I used to pay for that, and then I was just like, why what am I doing?
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 3:Now you just got
Speaker 2:the skip pants. No. We tried to watch Game of Thrones with it, and you would miss like 40% of the show. So I never knew what was going on.
Speaker 3:It's eighteen minute episode.
Speaker 2:I was like I was like, this is so dumb. Yeah. Like, are we doing? But it was literally, you would edit and you could choose, you know, male nudity, female nudity. And I was like, gosh, there's some really horrid choices on here.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and and so... Because my my my my kids' friends were all watching it, and I couldn't engage in it and didn't know. And so I think Madison showed me that angel... I forgot what it's called.
Speaker 3:Angel words?
Speaker 2:It's angel something, but basically, it will it will edit the show for you. And then I just... I didn't feel good about it. So, like, this is dumb.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So for Angie and everyone else who's watching and listening, I think when it comes to all kinds of entertainment, the the issue is what's being formed in me, you know, like how am I how am I being shaped by this and changed by this?
Speaker 3:Because I know I personally, I lean into entertainment when I'm trying to escape reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I can tell when it's taking me to a place that's unhealthy. Right? I'm avoiding responsibility, I'm avoiding hard things that have to be done. And so that's when I need to watch myself, you know. And so that can happen with, I think, any any kind of entertainment or any kind of thing that we have just in life that we engage with.
Speaker 3:We gotta think about what's being formed in me right now. You know, am I becoming more like Jesus or less like him Yeah. Because I choose to watch this.
Speaker 2:And so... Yeah. We didn't talk about haunted houses. When I was a kid...
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm scared of them.
Speaker 2:You guys know who always... I was a kid in the seventies who had the best haunted houses? It was churches. I I kid you not. Like, all my friends would go to churches because they would scare the hell out of you, literally.
Speaker 2:Like... And they would give you a gospel track at the end of the thing. You're gonna go to hell, and there'd be, people in chains. I'm so sorry, save me.
Speaker 3:I remember
Speaker 2:crying as a kid, you know, and that's when the rapture and like some people would get sucked out of the... You know, like, I'm like, dude.
Speaker 3:My parents would take me to this one that the firefighters put on, but I was always such a chicken. I had the don't scare me paddle. It was like a red, like, ping pong paddle. I would go in like that. Then I remember a number of years ago, me and my brother-in-law, who is as tall as me and as big as me, Donovan, we were at Scandia.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Out there kinda towards Redlands, and they had a legit haunted house where they had, like, the scare count of how many people chickened out, and two grown 21 year olds come running out holding each other. And our, like, our girlfriend... I mean, they're our wives now, but girlfriends at the time were just laughing. Was like, look at you guys, man. But...
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'm a big chicken when it comes to handout. You will not find me one. Nope. I'm
Speaker 2:good. So you don't like people, like, scaring you?
Speaker 3:No. No. Yeah. I'm liable to swing on somebody. You know?
Speaker 3:Not scary, Varma, all those play. I've been to him a few times, but I can't I can't do it. I'm not gonna pay all that money Yeah. To just run around and get anxiety about someone on rollerblades coming up with a chainsaw.
Speaker 2:Dude, I I love scaring people. And actually, it's a miracle that I'm still married. I used to hide in the garage
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:In a sleeping bag and wait for Tammy to come in. And the garage door would go down, and I I'd have the light on a switch and I turn the light off, and she'd get out of the house.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:And she finally told me, she's like, if you wanna stay married, we gotta stop this. And I was like, oh, I thought it was fun. She's like,
Speaker 3:no. I have to announce in the room. Yeah. If I haven't been around Ashley, it's like, if she's like doing her hair or something, I say, Ash, Ash, I'm coming in, and sometimes I still... Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's a jump scare. I know, dude. So... Yeah.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 2:I I I like being scared, you know, like like like like jumping out.
Speaker 3:Oh, jump scare.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Alright, guys. Thank you so much for listening, and and just know, it's easier to just draw walls and call everything evil and seclude yourself than it is to actually engage in culture, and try to be able to have conversations with people that are living real lives.
Speaker 2:So I would just encourage you, you know, don't worship the devil, don't dress overly sexual, but try to engage with your neighbors, and show people that Christians are real people, and that we we wanna enjoy life and and have a good time. Because remember, Jesus said, I have come that you may have life and have it to the full. He didn't say, I've come to bore you to death until I return. And so a lot of Christians unfortunately live
Speaker 3:in that....
Speaker 2:Translation. So thank you so much. I'll be praying for you guys, and I realize this conversation comes up every single year at Halloween, but be a missional Christian, meet your neighbors, pass out candy, be a good Christian, and make sure you have a Sandals Church sign on your front porch and pass out good candy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Good Don't pass
Speaker 2:out cheap granola bars. Good candy. Alright. Thank you so much. Send your questions in.
Speaker 2:We appreciate you guys. Until next time, grace in peace.
Speaker 3:See you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.