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Regenerative by Design Podcast where we get to the root of health, climate, economics and food. Host, Joni Kindwall-Moore, is an RN, an Ethnobotanist and the founder of Snacktivist Foods. Join us on this journey as we explore the ideas, stories and personalities behind the regenerative food system movement including climate change, human health, economics and food as well as other deeply interconnected topics.
In this podcast, we will be “going there” and leaning into topics that might make you squirm… just a little. We want to challenge ourselves to think outside of the box and to discover the deeper side of our world’s problems so that we can better understand how to solve them.
We aim to unpack some of the most dynamic issues of our day with some of the most inspiring minds who are pushing the boundaries of our current norms and thinking paradigms.
We have seen incredibly disruptive events in the past few years like pandemics, climate events, disasters and war. These often trigger system changes that are reactionary and have short term gains. When these are practiced over the long term, they often have a degenerative effect on health and the environment.
Regenerative design thinking is the opposite, and is an intentional, premeditated process that involves a high level of observation, analysis, creativity, and looking beyond reductionistic principles while embracing systems thinking and additionality to create regenerative solutions.
Regenerative agriculture has become a powerful force for positive transformation and hope in todays world. And no discussion about agriculture is complete without a conversation about food.
Food is the connection between people and the planet so grab a cup of coffee or your favorite running shoes and get ready to take a mental and philosophical leap into the future of food and our planet.
Hello everyone, you are
listening to the regenerative by
design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. I
am your host, Joanie Kenmore.
Join me on this journey as we
explore the stories of
individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our
food system with both human
health and the health of our
planet. Okay, hello, everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us
for another session of
regenerative by design. I'm
really pleased to have Craig
Anderson joining us today from
dryland genetics. Good morning,
Craig.
Good morning. Yeah, I'm
really thrilled that you could
make the time. I've gotten to
know Craig over the last couple
of years, because he is doing a
lot of pioneering work in his
role as CEO at DryLin, genetics
and Ames, Iowa. And Craig, I'm
excited for you to tell our
audience a little bit about your
background for one and how you
came to be working in the
millets genetic and breeding
space. For those of you who are
out there in the audience, and
you're not familiar with how
important seed in genetics is in
the world of food. You're going
to learn a lot today from Craig,
as he's really working at the
leading edge of this. And as we
look at our whole global food
system, and we start to realize
that we want to bring, you know
reawakened crops into our modern
food system, a huge piece of the
puzzle that we often fail to
talk about is genetics, and
breeding, and how we select the
perfect millets. For the modern
situation. We're in today's. So,
Craig, if you want to get us
started a little bit, and just
tell us a little about your
background, because you actually
have a fantastic background
before you came to be working in
the field of millets.
Sure, first of all, I pleasure
to be with you today. And you
know, I think back on on kind of
growing up, I grew up in
agriculture. So I grew up in a
farm in southeast Minnesota, and
have really spent my entire life
in agriculture. And after
graduating from college, I went
to work for a seed company. And
I spent the next 32 years
working with that seed company,
mostly in the in the corn and
soybean space, and really had
the opportunity to watch crops,
crop breeding genetics, and some
of the things that we were able
to help growers with, really
changed the way crops were grown
and the expectation of how they
can withstand, you know,
difficult environments, whether
it's drought or heavy insect
pressure. And so I did that for
32 years and, and then was
looking for something new, a new
challenge to kind of take on
and, and in October of 2021, the
opportunity to go to work for
dryland genetics came up dryland
genetics was a proso, millet
breeding company that had been
formed in in 2014, I'll tell you
just a little bit of that story.
Because because it's a really
neat story. And then in October
of 2021, they were looking to
take the venture to the next
level and go commercial with it.
And so they, they, they brought
me on to basically develop a
seed organization, a seed
structure that could could take
their breeding program to the
next level. And so that's what I
did. When I think about dryland
genetics, you know, and I wasn't
really familiar with proso
millet to be completely honest.
And I guess I'd said birds in
the past so that was one of the
big uses for proso millet and
but but actually getting to know
the story was pretty cool
because the co founders are a
father son team. They're both
professors patch novel at Iowa
State. And, and his son James at
University of Nebraska. And
they're both PhDs in plant
genetics and breeding. And so
they bring just a tremendous
amount of knowledge and
experience to the whole idea of
plant breeding. And, and so, the
idea for breeding with personal
millet actually started with an
experiment James was doing, and
he was looking at several
different crops in a greenhouse.
And when the study was done,
they basically just abandoned it
and laughed. And about a month
later, 40 days later, he came
back to the greenhouse and there
was one of the plants that just
didn't quit, it hadn't been
watered, it hadn't had any, you
know, fertility or anything at
it and there it was producing
grain producing, you know, just
a really nice plant and that was
white proso millet and, and so
that's kind of how dryland
genetics got started as an idea.
But the basics behind it was
really about working with water
efficiency in in agriculture,
grain crop systems. Both Pat and
James. Were really passionate
about that topic, because of the
struggle that we can see in the
US with you know, what, what is
water available? The ability
look like for for, you know,
agriculture today, clearly
agriculture is one of the
biggest consumers of water. And
and so we're going to in a water
efficient crop was really
important to them. And so when I
look at proso millet and say why
would you want to focus on that
crop? So one of the things is,
it's the most water efficient
crops being grown in the US, it
literally can produce a bushel
of grain on half the water
that's required to produce a
bushel of corn. And it also does
that with very low fertility
requirements, when you think
about added NP and K or are, you
know, just the fertility likes
to grow grain. So it's an
extremely good crop to grow from
that aspect. And then the second
reason that personal millet
makes such a great crop to be
working with is it's an
extremely nutritious grade. And
so whether it's gluten free
characteristics, we like the
fact that it's a ancient grain
non GMO, but it's also just a
really healthy grain. And I
know, you know, Johnny, you're
really familiar with that aspect
of cross millet. So I'd like to,
you know, we can visit more
about that, but, but that's why
we got started with the craft in
the very beginning.
I love it, because those are so
many, those are the reasons that
I became what people love to
tease me and call me the millet
cheerleader, or even the millet
pimp sometimes, which I kind of
have to chuckle because it's
kind of inappropriate, but
funny, just the same, because
you're always like trying to
solicit this new crop that
people haven't really heard of,
and that they don't have a lot
of familiarity with it. And if
they do, it's usually because of
poultry or bird feed. And so,
you know, when when you start
people down this path, usually
their first warm up is like, oh,
it tastes good, B, it's good for
me. D there's this huge climate
story behind it. And you know,
when I started to unpack the
deep layers of the climate
impact and the resiliency around
millet as a crop, that's when I
became like, convicted in the
fact that not only was it good
for us and tastes great, etc.
But we have to as a society
embrace crops like proso millet,
that can produce food in the
face of extreme, you know,
adversity from either like
climate extremes, like what
doctors naval experienced. I've
seen that was firsthand. Um, and
back in 2021, I believe we had a
heat dome, I think it was 2021
or 2022. And I was already
involved with a lot of millet
projects. But that particular
year in the Pacific Northwest,
we had this extreme weather
event where it was like 115 117
degrees, like the surface level
temperatures were like over 150
degrees, like it was crazy. And
one of the farmers that I work
with who is on a regenerative
transition pathway, so he's
bringing in different, you know,
diversity of crops. And proso
millet was on his agenda that
year, he had harvested his
wheat. And so there was a lot of
great stubble there. And he went
in with a grain drill. And he
drilled that person millet right
into that stubble. Well, you
know, two weeks of no rain, and
then the heat dome later, we
just assumed there's no way that
that person millet will ever
sprout or do anything. It never
had a drop of rain, extreme
heat, I mean catastrophic heat.
And what do you know that
October, we were out there
harvesting that proso millet,
and it was stunted. I mean, it
wasn't the most beautiful high
yielding proso millet, but it
did it it actually was able to
germinate. We attribute that to
the wicking of the moisture at
night just from the humidity.
And we're in a dry part of the
world. So there's not a lot of
humidity, but the wicking of the
wheat straw was able to be just
enough to get that proso millet
to germinate and to grow. And
for me, that was a turning point
when it came to advocacy for
proso millet as a crop. Because
seeing that firsthand that it
had been completely given up on.
It hadn't been I don't think it
had any fertilizer. I don't
think anything was done to it.
It literally was kind of given
up on and we still were managed
to have a pretty decent, decent
yield given the circumstances.
And you know, but that opened up
my eyes to all these other
things that are needed to
develop this crop and
commercialize it for modern
agricultural settings. You know,
as we know, millet has extreme
diversity of genetics around the
world, but it's more like
landrace varietals, you know,
they're they're kind of hidden
in little nooks and crannies
around the world where this is
still commonly consumed. And I
know that Dr. snapeval did do a
global assessment of what they
called germ plasm of prosa
millet to get this started, and
if you wouldn't mind sharing a
little bit about that. I think
that's so fascinating. It's
almost like gathering the
genetic history and lore of a
forgotten crop, which is kind
Have any adventure? Yeah,
sure. That's, you know, so one
of the things about any seed
company is really kind of its
its future success will always
be based on the kind of the
depth and breadth of his
germplasm pool that has
available to work with weather,
whatever crop that would be in.
And could
you can you define germplasm for
our listeners who are not as
familiar with how breeding works
just a little quick crash course
is basically the parental seed
of whatever variety or crop
you're talking about whether
that's corn, soybeans, proso,
millet, vegetables, like
tomatoes, watermelon germ plasm
is just the the actual basic
parental material that's being
used to produce new varieties
or, you know, grow grow hybrid
production. And so what the
Snoballs were able to do was
actually go out and source white
proso millet all over the world.
And they came up with about 720
distinct different germ plasm
pools to work with through that
effort. All of those amazing
germ plasm pools had freedom to
operate, meaning we were able to
use that in our breeding program
without any restriction. And so
then they basically looked at at
a genetic sequencing model that
actually let them understand the
different diversity of those
pools of, of white proso millet
and and what we found was, to
your point, everything was a
little bit geographically tight.
So if it came from a certain
area, the diversity was actually
very narrow. So for example, the
US germplasm approach or millet
was a very narrow germplasm
pool, what we were able to do is
immediately start making crosses
between those pools of germ
plasm that really blew up the
diversity of proto millet and
just made a foundation for what
dryland genetics has to work
with going forward. And then
I'll talk a little bit about
some of our targets today,
because we move beyond the
important aspect of agronomic
performance and yield
performance in breeding new
varieties. And now we're looking
at more specific and use market
application to our program. So
that were actually better than
or better fit for their for
their use.
Okay, I'm gonna just give a
little quick synopsis of that
for our listeners, because what
you just said, could be easily
missed. And it's very, very
profound, because one of the
reasons why I was immediately so
excited when I heard about the
work of dryland genetics is the
is shifting that paradigm away
from our food system and our ag
system being solely focused on
just, you know, bigger is better
Supersize Me like, you know,
it's all about the yield.
Instead, you guys are also
focused on you know, usability
yield is always an important
part of the puzzle. But we need
to be breeding for climate
resiliency and nutrition as as
things that are of equal
importance, and that is actually
something that is very
foundationally different than
what has been driving our more
agronomic system the last 50
years like post Great Green
Revolution. And especially when
you're dealing with a plant that
doesn't require or respond to
really high fertilizer dosing.
And you know, that that's also a
really critical piece of the
puzzle that we've been directing
a lot of our breeding breeding
programs for varieties that the
more nitrogen you dump on them,
the bigger and fatter they get.
And now in this situation, we're
looking at germ plasm, and
genetics that have that
resiliency where you're breeding
for more nuanced things that are
important for health and planet.
So thank you, I just wanted to
give a little wrap up there for
our listeners. Oh,
that's fantastic. You know, so
So when I think about proso
millet as a grain crop, we
actually think about okay, it's
good for crop rotation. In the
US it's good because it's water
efficiency, it's good because it
uses a very limited amount of
resourcing in fertilizers and
whatnot to grow the crop. So
what makes him great green crop
but then if you shift to say,
you know, why is post homolytic
great grain that really gets
exciting because that's the
aspect that I believe has been
overlooked for a long time in
the US there's other countries
around the world that use postal
millet as a food as a feed and
have you know for a long time
but when I think about personal
millet as a grain I really think
about first its use in food. And
why do I think that that's
exciting is is if you look at
the nutritional value of prozone
Millet being gluten free okay,
that already covers a lot of
people who are looking for
something very specific in in
grain as as a you know, a food
source. And then you go to it's
low glycemic and very new
nutrient rich characteristics,
you know, it just brings in so
much value as a food ingredient
that I think the US will
continue to see growth of millet
as it's used in food. Then if
you look at opportunity that
exists today, it's mostly wild
bird seed or premium pet food.
But university studies that have
been done recently have shown
that it's extremely effective as
as a replacement for corn in
both hog and poultry ration,
we're actually seeing the
benefit of switching out the,
you know, the corn in poultry
rations, and actually getting
better performance. And now what
we're looking into is, are we
actually getting more nutritious
and products, whether that's an
egg, or whether it's a chicken
breast. So we're continuing our
work with universities to
actually support those studies
that can validate, you know, the
use of that as a as a feed in
the ration.
That is such an important topic
right now, because it has really
been long, undervalued,
especially when you're looking
at the end quality and nutrient
density of an egg. Not all eggs
are created equal, is what we're
finding. And if we can find that
a change in the feed in poultry
creates a better nutrient dense
and product. That's that is when
the consumers will start to
respond and support these kinds
of changes. And then there's
always this upside that, you
know, when you really kind of
calculate out some of the math
switching away from a heavy
irrigation commodity food to
something like proso millet,
where you're dramatically
reducing your water footprint.
Now it starts to make the
conversation around animal food,
less climate impactful. Um, you
know, when it comes to water,
and when it comes to a lot of
other things that that tend to
be really hot topics in today's,
you know, food climate
intersection conversations. So I
really love that you guys are
taking a deep dive into that to
better understand that.
Yeah, we've got we've got
several projects that are
ongoing with with universities,
but then we're also starting to
work with the industry. And it's
exciting to hear and note that
there's actually a level of
interest, whether that be group
groups like you know, the Hormel
Giniel group, or even the big
groups like Tyson, that there
are people in those
organizations that are
interested in what I would call
the reality of that story.
Meaning it's both a climate
friendly way to produce grain to
feed animals. But it's also a
very nutritious feed, that can
actually have, you know, a big
impact in a big outcome. So it's
nice to see actually some energy
behind that. And, you know,
we're supportive of, of any of
those initiatives that can
expand the use and let people
see the value, of course,
absolutely.
And you know, one of the things
that I think is of note when
we're discussing a crop like pro
Samila, is that it's not
necessarily competing with like
another cash crop for acreage, a
lot of the time, the farmers
that I work with are using proso
millet either as a rescue crop
when the first crop has failed,
and they have a shorter, Hotter,
Drier season gap to fill. Or
they use it in our neck of the
woods out here in the Pacific
Northwest to eliminate summer
fallow, which is historically a
time that the ground is just
tilled and left bare, to blow
away and run away and degrade.
And we know that with
regenerative agricultural
principles, we always want to
have the ground covered with a
living route. So it really plays
a vital role in filling some of
those gap times in our more
legacy agricultural systems,
that we can sneak in a really
short growing season crop like
proso millet, that doesn't need
all the irrigation and all the
fertilizer and can actually be
grown in areas that have been
deemed not really great for
agriculture anymore, and maybe
at threat for desertification.
You look at like the Southwest
along the Colorado, where
there's been dramatic impacts to
access to water rights and for
irrigation. And a lot of times
that we hear from farmers will
have you know, we're throwing in
the towel because we can't grow
anything because we don't have
access to the irrigation we need
for our alfalfa or whatever
else. I invite those farmers to
start thinking about growing
these climate resilient crops
that that need a fraction of the
water and fertilizer so they can
still keep that arable land
productive and not let it go
towards a desert of fight
abandoned status. I'd love to
hear your thoughts on
on for sure that I mean, that's
one of the key reasons why, you
know, we're looking at expanding
the what I would call the
recognized use of personal
Melendez as a feed ingredient.
You know, we believe that as
water issues become more intense
that it will become more
difficult to raise corn in some
of the areas that are raising
Corn today. And to your point
what what's a crop that could
actually come in and help these
guys still find a really
economical way to farm ground?
You know, the neat thing about
corn is, is it is so much more
resilient than it was 20 years
ago. And that's through breeding
progress, and just some of the
tools that we use around
production management. But
there's still a mathematical
formula of how much water it
takes to grow a bushel of corn,
that that math doesn't change.
And when you look at a craft
that can actually do that same
bushel of grain on half the
water requirement, that's a
significant step change, I mean,
that's something that will make
a difference in water
utilization, and still allow for
production of grain. So I think,
I think that, that, you know,
proving that this is a good
direction, and benefiting both
the farmer, the producer of
grain, and the end user that you
know, the person feeding
livestock or feeding people or
feeding, you know, pets, that
that this is a great
combination. And it's and it
really is a win win for the
environment and the people as
well. So, you know, we're pretty
excited about our breeding
program is making progress we
were talking about, you know,
that it's not just about
agronomic seed yield anymore, it
will always be about economics
and yield. But we've been able
to go beyond that and start
thinking about end use value. So
whether that's just uniform
maturation, one of the things
that farmers are up against
growing proso millet is that the
way the crop matures, by the
time the whole seed head is
mature, it's subject to
shattering. And so then you can
have lost grain that isn't
harvestable. Well, through
breeding, we can actually work
on changing the dynamics, the
physiology of how that grain
head matures, so that the farmer
can actually straight cut the
variety and save all of the
grain versus worrying about
shatter. And so that's
what was the big deal for ways
Yeah, we're working on that for,
really to benefit farmers. But
then there's other things like,
are waxy varieties are easy to
be hauling varieties are large
seeded varieties, that all have
specific value end for end
users. And, for example, just
easy to hauling, if we can limit
the amount of waste and lost
during the healing process by 25
to 30%, because of the new
varieties, that makes a
significant value to the whole
food chain, when we're bringing
D hauled millet into whether
it's flour or whether it's used
as you know, just old mill it
for food
absolutely brings the cost down
a lot to the consumer. Because
you know, ultimately, when
you're buying millet on the
market today, you know, you you
are paying for some of that loss
during the inefficiencies of the
processing. And so all of these
initiatives help us get pro
simulate to a point where it
really is more appropriate and
scalable in modern food systems,
which is so important. I love
that you guys have have worked
on the easy to D haul aspects of
it because I know when I first
started talking to Dr. Sable
Schnabel at UVA University of
Nebraska Lincoln, I was like
That is such a big deal. For
those of us on the food side, I
really begged for you guys to
make that a huge focus, because
we just see it as like a barrier
to commercialization. And now
that with the OMD G grant that
back of us foods and zego foods
received to get what we're
calling civic launched
collaborative integrated value
chain, we're going to have a
millet the hauler at that
facility next year so we can
start actually really working
these new varieties that you
guys are developing and bringing
them through the value chain so
we can start evaluating them for
better and quality use when it
comes to either cooking them as
a rice substitute or flowering
them millets really represent
like the wild west right now
like there's so much exploration
and there's so much creative
work that is needed to to hone
it in to the refinement that say
wheat and rice and and other
commodities enjoy because
they've had decades of people
really discerning the details.
So it's an exciting it's an
exciting place to work. Yeah,
and
I'd see some of that is actually
needed in the industry. Yes to
bring millets alongside some of
the other food grains that are
already available whether it be
rice, you think about you know
people eating starch grains like
rice potatoes, noodles. If you
haven't tried millet, you should
find a source and try proso
millet as a rice replacement for
example. I think it just makes a
really neat interesting flavor
difference for a meal. Yeah. And
and it's actually one of my big
hopes in the next year or so is
that we'll start to see posts on
millet on a grocery shelf,
whether it's Kroger or or Costco
or any of the big chains, just
like you'd see cane water
rights. Today you can find some
millet flour and some some other
things of millet occasionally
you can find millet at at Whole
Foods and some some of the other
health food stores. But yeah, I
would like to see Muller readily
available to everyone as a
choice, consumer choice. And
then as people try it, I mean,
I've been amazed at how many
friends and family have tried
millet and said, Oh, my gosh, I
didn't know what we were missing
it. We had never even thought of
it. Yeah.
And so I hear that a lot, too,
from people. And honestly, like,
where I'm also very excited to
see more millet, and it's
happening with conversations
that we're developing on the
snack of a side is to get it in
front of chefs. And so that way,
chefs can start serving it to
people because you look at like
what happened with quinoa. And I
remember buying quinoa in the
early 90s and cooking with it.
And it was back when you had to
soak it because it saw the
saponins I mean, there were a
lot of barriers to the bringing
bringing popularity to Kinlaw.
But they managed to do it. And
it's really fascinating. Sergio
Nunez, the arco who's a friend
of mine, and, and lends a lot of
efforts and wisdom to the snatch
of this initiative. We'll have
him on the show here soon. He is
really one of the godfathers of
the modern clean water movement.
He's Bolivian and he really
wrote that entire wave and
really understands what is
needed to popularize the new
green in modern markets. And we
do know that chefs and getting
those influential chefs, working
with these new greens, that's
how they drive the awareness in
consumers. Because they're like,
Oh, I've seen that in the store.
But I was scared to try it. I
didn't really know what to do
with it. And I didn't know how
it tasted. But then they go out
to dinner. And what do you know,
somebody serves a millet to
Bulli? Or, you know, maybe even
just blends, millet was rice
instead of just plain rice.
Definitely, their mind is open
and their palate is open to a
new experience. And then they're
more apt to go home and try it
themselves.
Yeah, I was kind of surprised.
It took me as long as it did to
ever really tried millet. Now
there's there's millet in Kind
bars and some of the other help
like the 12, grain breads, a lot
of those will use millet. But
but our family now eats millet
on a regular basis as literally
as a rice substitute. Or like
you mentioned, you make a rice
millet combination meal. And
it's extremely well. But yeah,
it's actually really delightful.
I mean, when kids come over,
they're a little scared, because
it doesn't look just plain
white. But you know, honestly,
what we hear from even kids here
in North Idaho, which not to
pick on my local community, but
not always is adventurous with
like eating choices. So like,
you know, it's just a little
it's, we don't have the ethnic
diversity here that drives
discovery of a lot of new
ingredients. And so, you know,
we'll get these kids that come
over, and they're scared to
death at first, and then they
try it and then they love it.
And then they come back and ask
for it again. So I'm always
happy that they're getting a
little more nutrition because I
tell you, when you look at pro
Samila, against white polished
rice, commodity white polished
rice, it's night and day. And
that's how we're going to really
debunk this whole anti carb
movement that's taken over the
mass media in the last 20 years.
We're just eating the wrong
carbs. I mean, we're eating
highly refined carbohydrate
sources that have really had a
lot of their nutritional values
scraped away. And they've been
bred for carbohydrates, not for
nutritional integrity. And no
wonder people are shunning
carbs, which is really a
tragedy, I really feel strongly
about reclaiming our
carbohydrate staple sector, and
just demanding that it delivers
nutrition again. And that's,
again, you know, I mentioned
earlier on that, when used as a
food, I think, I think that
nutrient rich density of cocoa
millet will continue to add
value as a food source. And then
you know, whether it's low
glycemic or gluten free, I mean,
that's helping some people out
that really need something
different than the norm. And so
again, I I fully expect we'll
see proto millet become a bigger
staple in the food ingredients
space. Absolutely, if we can, if
we can have a bit of success,
we'll see it become used, again
as a feed source in both maybe
hog and poultry rations, really
giving growers the opportunity
to think about a crop rotation
strategy that adds something new
into the mix for him. And part
of the benefit of our breeding
program is that we can actually
start to now geographically
expand where ProSolo is and has
been grown in the US because it
was really grown in the High
Plains due to its water
efficiency for the most part,
but varieties were actually
developed for that geographic
area. And so because of the kind
of the depth of our, our, our
breeding pool, we're actually
able to go south go west to go
north. and really look at proso
millet working specifically with
new varieties in new in new
geographies, which I think is
also going to be necessary to
expand the supply chain model
approach.
Absolutely, yeah. Because as, as
the discovery, you know, starts
to happen. And we are having
conversations with some really
fantastic medically tailored
meals companies, and
institutional food service
because they're interested in
things that, you know, can
substitute for rice with a
better nutritional profile and
more favorable glycemic index,
that's going to trigger demand.
And right now, that's what our
farmers need. Because the last
couple of years, we've had a
surge of interest from farmers
wanting to plant and grow proso
millet, we had last year's UN
year of millets, at the UN FAO.
But we still don't have that
market poll established. And
that's a place where I'm very
focused on working to develop is
getting that millet in front of
people. So we can start to
ignite that demand cycle that
will help support the farmers
that are growing prosa millet,
rather than having them be stuck
with millet at the end of season
and not having a a way to move
it to market or a stable
contract in place that gives
them any sort of protection
around their pricing. I know
that you've dealt with a lot of
that, to me,
that's still one of the fun
things about about building out
this dryland genetics story is,
is really the fact that, you
know, while we're a breeding
company, producing new varieties
for seed, we're extremely
involved and very passionate
about helping to develop the end
use markets, and then really
think about the supply chain
model that's going to have to
change to make the story
successful.
Yeah, there's a lot of moving
parts in the middle there that,
you know, honestly, you just
don't even know are there until
you're trying to navigate
through it. I was so surprised.
A few years back when I first
started getting involved in
farmer connected supply chains,
that we had all this fantastic
millet and we're the closest
place to get it hauled was 1000s
of miles away. So when you did
the math on trucking it halfway
across the continent, paying to
process it and shipping it all
the way back, suddenly, you're
paying for a very expensive
commodity, not because of the
cost of the commodity, but
literally just the trucking to
get it moved through the value
chain. So it's been a real focus
of ours, the last few years just
to really catalyze that, you
know, fixing the bottlenecks in
processing. But you know, again,
it's it's all they all have to
move at the same time, all the
pieces of the puzzle, have to
move at the same time. And then
all the while had this consumer
communication and education
piece that's happening. So are
you guys that dryland genetics
working with, like any
influencers out there in the
market, that are like helping to
educate the public about how
cool Mila is? So
you know, right now, to be fair,
a lot of our effort is actually
spent also on the fuel side. So
we're looking at being used as
an ethanol feedstock, and
really, for a couple of key
reasons. One is it has a carbon
intensity score that is
significantly better than that
of corn, especially corn grown,
grown under irrigation. And then
secondly, just the very nature
of of its fiber content versus
corn, it's got to add added
value in the in this space that
we believe will become big and
sustainable aviation fuel. And
so we're actually doing some a
lot of work right now in the
public relations side of things
with, with the government to
make sure that that millet isn't
forgotten when this whole new 45
Z comes along. And we're looking
at, you know, what, you know,
what crops qualify for programs
under the sustainable fuels act?
Yeah, that being said, that
we're also still very engaged
with people on the on the food
and feed side. And really, what
we're trying to do is, is just
give people the opportunity to
do some trialing to do some
things that can prove the value.
And that's where we can we can
be kind of partners in long in
the process. And so, so we've
been trying to be really
supportive in in that space with
with both food companies and
with with poultry producers and
feed companies and then
supporting the academic side of
research trials being done.
Over the next I'm glad you
brought up this. Yeah, I'm glad
you brought up the sustainable
aviation fuel piece because it
is actually a really big deal
right now, for those of you who
aren't following those
conversations. It's a hot topic
right now. And the carbon
intensity scores are I mean,
that's the name of the game
right now Thank you for bringing
that up. Again,
you know, that can be a subject
where people are on either side
of the fence on a hard way
about, you know, using grain as
a fuel source. Yeah, but one of
the things that I get excited
about is, the more realistically
sustainable, you make that whole
process, the better the model
is. And while
otherwise,
I was supportive of it being in
the corn industry, most of my
career, I'm really excited about
millet having an opportunity to
at least play in that space. One
of the things that would be very
beneficial is that would help
mature out the supply chain.
Because one of the things that
ethanol will do is always go to
the lowest practical feedstock
that they can produce ethanol
from. And so that can help even
out the the highs and lows of
what's been the millet market
and consume a lot of rain in
times of overproduction, but
still be supportive when when,
you know when things are in a
different spot. But But yeah, I
mean, dryland genetics is is a
breeding company. But we're much
more focused on how do we use
the product we're working on in
breeding? How can we actually
make it a more reliable and
sustainable product in the in
the food and feed space, you
really have to look at the whole
system. When you're bringing a
reawakened crop to market at
scale. It's impossible to solely
focus on one of the use cases
for it, because that is the
reality of, of agriculture. I
mean, it's it's rare that you
have just one thing grown for
one part of the plant. I mean,
there's just so many diverse
uses, you have Grade A Grade B,
that naturally because not every
crop turns out perfect. What do
you do with the imperfect
harvest. And that's where animal
feed and things like a, you
know, sustainable fuel
initiatives can play a vital
role in just making sure that we
don't have waste on the market
that doesn't have an end use.
And I have always been a little
skeptical about corn and
sustainable ethanol production
just because of the water
intensity and the fertilizer
intensity of corn. It just
didn't necessarily always add up
to me when when looked through a
true cost accounting
perspective. So I'm just so
happy to hear, you know, sorghum
gets involved in these
conversations a lot. And I work
with sorghum and sorghum, a
geneticist and agronomist, as
well. And it's just neat to see
this whole interconnected
conversation really take hold
and grow. So I'm really great.
You know, one last thing, Craig,
that I would love for you, just
to clarify with our audience,
might not, I frequently find
that people are not super clear
about the difference between
classic plant breeding and
genetic modification. And, you
know, one of the conversations
that comes up a lot with people
in my world, is that, you know,
when we when we have huge
germplasm reserves of new
genetics to explore, we could
spend a lifetime just working
there without ever needing
artificial genetic modification.
But when people hear the word
plant breeding, they often their
mind immediately goes to like
CRISPR technology. So could you
could you just add a little bit
into a conversation about your
philosophy at dryland genetics
on on plant breeding? So
one, you know, to be very clear,
dryland genetics isn't doing
anything with genetically
modifying personal milk. And so
there's, there's really, when
you think about, you know, the
answer to your question there.
There's what we all have been,
you know, heard of in the past
of GMOs. So basically, that's a
genetically modified organism.
For the most part, I think there
was maybe 15 different crops
that have been genetically
modified that way, but for the
most part that was actually
being done to confer insect
tolerance, or herbicide
tolerance into the plant.
There's, there's been a few
other modifications, but that's
primarily what what was used in
creating genetically modified
organisms. There's a newer
technology I would call gene
editing, that really uses very
specific tools to make gene edit
changes. It's not modifying it
by adding in anything that
wasn't there. But it's using a
very specific scientific process
to edit the, the general of the
plant. What we do at dryland
genetics is classical breeding,
but we're using the modern
science of sequencing so we
actually understand the
populations that we're breeding
with. So, so that those three
things are basically traditional
plant breeding. You have the
very new modern science of gene
editing, which isn't it's
basically What I would call
Super Science breeding,
traditionally, you're using some
very specific tools. And you're
making some very unique edits to
the plant. But it's not that
different than what happens in
traditional plant breeding, when
you're letting mother nature do
those edits, and then select it
for the genetic modification was
something different, because
that was adding something that
the plant didn't already have
naturally. Yeah, and so to me,
that's kind of the three
differences there, I'm not
advocating for anyone being bad
or anyone being really good.
Other than I think, the more
scientific we are in our
approach to plant breeding is,
the more we'll be able to draw
out of plants, and keeping the
what I would call the healthy
profiles or, or the value added
things that things like millet
have today, we'll be able to
keep those intact, because we'll
understand what we've actually
done with our, with our breeding
in advance.
Yeah, and it's such a hot topic
that gets very polarizing. And I
think right now, it's really
exciting to work with companies
that are using classic plant
breeding, but leaning into
science to help expedite the
process. So that because we
don't have a lot of time to wait
when you really look at like
temperature trends that are
happening globally, and how that
impacts our ability to grow
crops to feed the world and feed
our livestock and whatnot. So
time is of the essence, I
wouldn't want you guys to take
25 years to develop a viable
seed crop. So I love that you
guys are leaning into like, you
know, just good, good sound
science to help accelerate that,
but without the you know, like,
like actually, like actually
doing anything invasive, like,
you know, classic GMO type
things because that just gets
into a lot of murky ground. For
a lot of people. It is a hot
topic, I tend to kind of, I have
my own personal beliefs about
it. But I love when I find
people who are really doing high
quality scientific breeding. And
but still using nature's
toolbox. It's really great at
scale. So good job, you guys.
It's it's really, it's really
fun to watch everything that you
are all doing. And as someone
who's a millet, innovator, and
really developing those markets,
your work is critical to all of
our success. So I just want to
thank you for joining us. And
we'll go ahead and wrap it up.
You know, and I know that this
has been a jam packed session
full of all kinds of great
information. So for those of you
who are listening, if you want
to reach out to Craig Anderson
at DryLin, genetics, I know that
he's on LinkedIn and responsive
there and, and whatnot. So we
can put his information in the
show notes. So you can learn
more about DryLin genetics and
about Craig's work and the work
of both Dr. Staples and the
things that they're doing to
help advance climate resilient
agriculture. So thanks so much
for joining us, Greg. It's been
lovely. Thank you. Pleasure
to be with you today. This
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design podcast is brought to you
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