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The Feel Good Podcast aims to unpack what it means to be a man in the modern world. In each episode, we explore the evolving landscape of masculinity through open, honest conversations with guests from all walks of life, from sport and the military to leadership, mental health and the arts.
We challenge outdated narratives and dig into topics like emotional resilience, connection, identity and purpose. Our aim is to create a space where men can reflect, feel seen, and start to ask deeper questions about who they are and who they want to become.
Whether you're curious about redefining strength, navigating vulnerability, or simply looking for more meaning in how you show up day to day – this podcast is for you.
Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of feel good for men who want change where we talk about all things healthy masculinity. Now if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to tell quite easily that I'm not recording this intro from a studio and that's because my conversation with this week's guest Will was so great that I ran out of time and forgot to do it. So that's why I'm recording this one remotely. But the conversation with Will as I said was was great.
Tim Barber:It was fantastic. Just a heads up, we talk about suicide in the episode and that's because Will is an advocate for raising awareness for male suicide and male suicide prevention, having lost his father. We talk about Will's journey, we talk about his father in the episode, we talk about how the movement has really moved on from what he went through when he first lost his father to where we are today. And Will's part in that where he's one of his contributions alongside his fundraising is this beautiful short film he's made, which I'll include the link to and you'll hear us reference a few times, called Heirlooms, all about the sort of intergenerational trauma that accompanies suicide. It's a moving episode, but I think there's a lot to take from it.
Tim Barber:Whether or not you've been affected by suicide, I think you'll find a lot to take away from it in terms of how men talk about these topics, how men show vulnerability, and what we can do to help ensure that fewer people have to go through this. So as always, please enjoy this episode with Will Carsten. Alright. Will, welcome to the podcast.
Will Castle:Nice to nice to finally be here. Yeah. Excited.
Tim Barber:Excited. What? Excited for this or excited for the fact that you're going to see Oasis tonight?
Will Castle:A bit of both. Yeah. I mean, this is probably number one.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Will Castle:I think.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah. I'll message you after tomorrow and see how it goes. Well, thanks for coming on. Look, we've got loads to talk about and I think hopefully things that are gonna help a lot of people.
Tim Barber:But it'd be remiss not to start at the beginning and, you know, when we first met, you you gave this really moving talk. And and one of the things you spoke about was your childhood spent on yachts and private jets. So that might be a good way into your story. Tell us a bit about your your your childhood and your upbringing.
Will Castle:Sure. Well, I definitely didn't lead conventional childhood, as you've alluded to. So, yeah, my parents divorced and separated when I was really, really young. I have no recollection of them ever being together. And I sort of lived this double life of, like, my mom living, you know, a nice, normal inverted commas middle class life.
Will Castle:And then my dad who made and lost fortunes, I would be on his private yacht, private jet. I didn't really fly on a commercial plane until I was 18. You know, mansion in Oxfordshire, penthouse in St. Moritz. It was like things that people can only dream of.
Will Castle:Mhmm. You know, I was very, very, very privileged to have to have lived a life like that. But because of the type of person my dad was, he kept me really grounded. I had a weekend job from the age of 15. I was working in in Topman on the on on the floors.
Will Castle:Nice. I was I was cashing up. For those of you who remember Topman, who are old enough to remember it. And yeah, it was just it was a very, very unconventional upbringing. But I felt that my parents dealt with it pretty well, actually.
Will Castle:Like, they you know, I I look back on my childhood with with really fond memories even though it was utterly bizarre Yeah. And quite wild in places as well. But yeah, it was it was pretty cool.
Tim Barber:And you've got siblings?
Will Castle:I have a half sister. Yeah. Yeah. We don't really talk much at the moment. Yeah.
Will Castle:I have a half sister, but I am my mom's only child.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And and and, you know, wealth is one thing. But in terms of, like, the house that you grew up in, like, with your dad and your mom, was there love in the house? Did you feel supported alongside the world?
Will Castle:No. I I didn't have any I don't have any recollection of my parents ever being together. Like, zero recollection. So so to answer your question though, no, love was not a word that was used very commonly in in either household, to be perfectly honest. My mom is a very loving person.
Will Castle:Doesn't say it that much, but but but you can you can tell the warmth from my mom, whereas my dad was like an alpha male. Yeah. Like, traditional man's man, you know, men don't cry, like, all of that type of stuff. And that was instilled in me from a really, really young age. Like Like intentionally?
Will Castle:Intentionally. Yeah. Yeah. Very intentionally. You know, when I was I have vivid memories of seven, eight year old me being upset about things that kids get upset about Mhmm.
Will Castle:And really holding back those tears because things would get pretty angry Mhmm. If tears were were shown. It was a it was a it was a big thing in in in that household for sure.
Tim Barber:Mhmm. Well, tell us a bit more about your father because it seems like he was a larger than life figure, and obviously, we'll we'll we'll come on to sort of what followed. But what was he like? How did his success come to be? And yeah.
Will Castle:So he grew up yeah. He was adopted. He he had a very tough childhood. His dad walked out on him before. And that, you know, that has an effect on on anyone.
Will Castle:It really And my grandpa adopted him, and he lived on a council estate in Brent Cross. He went to state school, and he, you know, lived a a pretty tough life. He then moved out of home when he was about 15 and eventually moved to America where he discovered his talent for property. And then when he came back here in the late eighties, he basically absolutely smashed it and took advantage of the the eighties crash. He had some cash and he was able to cash in and buy property at the right time and made an absolute fortune and and was able to provide this life for me that one could only dream of.
Will Castle:And I think he was this type of guy who because he'd had such a troubled upbringing, he didn't want that life for me and my sister, and and he wanted to give everything to make sure that we would live the the best and most comfortable lives possible. But with that came a lot of sacrifice. You know, he was up every day at 04:00, and boy, did you know about it. Yeah. Everyone knew about it.
Will Castle:It was the thing that he used to shout from the rooftops about how hard he worked, you know, even on holiday, he was always on the phone. Every evening, always on the phone. You know, he installed that work ethic in me as well, but I've now learned to balance it. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Castle:Yeah. Is not something that he really had. He was that all nothing type of guy. But, yeah, as as I mentioned before, very old school in his views. Children should be seen and not heard.
Will Castle:Men shouldn't cry. Women should look after the children and and men should provide. And, you know, that was the beliefs that he tried to push onto me. And as and, you know, as we all know now in 2025, the world's a very different place.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:So there were lots of positives and to some extent negatives about his character, just like everyone. Everyone has positives and negatives. But I would go to the point of say he he was verging on sort of a toxic Mhmm. Masculinity type of person.
Tim Barber:And would you say that was something that he took from his adopted father or he picked up from the culture around him?
Will Castle:No. My grand I don't I don't wanna put words in anyone's mouth. My my grandpa was you know, my grandpa grew up in in the thirties and the forties. So so I think things were really different. I think he was a bit more gentle Mhmm.
Will Castle:My grandpa than my dad. But grandparents always are. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Will Castle:Yeah. You've always got that memory of your grandpa when you've done something naughty. He winks at you and gives you a word as original or something like that. But so no, I I don't think it was from his upbringing. I think it was more just the fact he was very determined to live a better life than he was given.
Will Castle:Yeah. And he just want he just was determined to be the best Yeah. At everything that he did.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And hard work being the way to that. Correct. Yeah. Okay.
Tim Barber:That makes sense. And for you as a as a boy growing up then, were you idolizing him?
Will Castle:Yes. Yeah. Very much so. Yeah. Very, very much so.
Will Castle:The only thing that mattered to me was to impress impress him. Yeah. And I just remember whenever I did something that I would get a nod of approval for, that was, like, the best moment Yeah. Of my life, you know. I have vivid picturesque memories of scoring my first goal in the football team where he was on the sidelines watching.
Will Castle:And I and I can still see his face beaming with pride. And that those are things that I just I just won't forget. My my goal in life as a boy and as a teenager was to impress my dad. Yeah. And I don't really know why that is.
Will Castle:I think it's just the effect he had on people. But yeah. I I really kind of yeah. I really did set out to impress him.
Tim Barber:Did you have a sense as to your life being, I suppose, different to others? I mean, you know, he was shaking hands with the queen, playing polo with Prince Charles.
Will Castle:It's a really hard question to answer because you don't really think about it in the time. Yeah. In hindsight, I knew, you know, my friends would come to my dad's house and be like, oh, wow. This is amazing. Got a pool and Yeah.
Will Castle:You know, all this land and and that you drive quad bikes and this so, like, I obviously, I I knew and, you know, the older you get, the more you realize. But I like to think I was quite modest and humble with it all because I still had that grounding from my mom. My mom is a very grounded person. She's very, very sensible. I have to give her big credit because she's the one who kind of made sure that my studies came first.
Will Castle:Like, she she did like, essentially, she did the hard work after my dad was the hero. Mhmm. And you gotta look back on that and feel a bit of you gotta give a lot of, like, credit to my mom for for for the role that she played, because that's not that is not an easy role. She was the one giving the sort of discipline and Yeah. You know, I was the one swatting off on private jets and boats with dad, and she was the one making me do my homework and all of that type of stuff.
Will Castle:So but, yeah, coming back to your question, yeah, I knew I knew things were different, but we tried to kind of give my friends and people who I was hanging around with a sense of it all and, you know, try and try and make positive change around them as well.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting. What's what I'm thinking of is that perhaps despite them being separated, your dad was still playing, I guess, the traditional, you know, male role in the household when your mom was doing more of that, I guess, unseen work Yeah.
Tim Barber:Quote unquote of, you know, caring and parenting.
Will Castle:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Spot on. Yeah.
Will Castle:My mom definitely had the harder. She drew the short straw in that relationship for sure.
Tim Barber:Absolutely. And look, you know, unfortunately, your your dad died by suicide and I guess is behind that presumably is some struggles that you weren't seeing.
Will Castle:Yep.
Tim Barber:Can you walk us through a bit, you know, what what happened there and and your involvement in it?
Will Castle:So rewind 02/2007. I've just gone to university and the great financial crisis had just happened or was happening. And you could tell things were being scaled back. You could definitely tell things were being scaled back, but everyone was struggling. So that wasn't like no alarm bells were ringing.
Will Castle:Right? You know, the the boat went, the plane went, but we were still living a much, you know, well above normal life. And then when, you know, a couple years on, you know, my dad obviously paid my rent at university. He paid my university fees. And I started getting letters from the university saying my my fees weren't being paid.
Will Castle:I started getting calls from the landlord saying my rent wasn't paid. And again, naively, I just thought, well, he's just forgotten or whatever. And I I never really kind of put two and two. Maybe I didn't want maybe maybe I had my sub subconscious protecting me. Maybe I didn't want to put two and two together, but I didn't really put two and two together.
Will Castle:And then I left uni in June 2010. I started work straight away. I literally took the weekend off and started work. And dad and I, I was working for a friend of his, and dad and I were looking for deals together. So we used to talk seven, eight times a day about deals and life and and whatever.
Will Castle:And it was only towards the end of his life, you know, he died in November 2010 and, you know, we're talking sort of August, September time. We were looking at some deals and they just very clearly didn't work. Mhmm. But he was desperate to try and make the numbers work, basically. And then things I started to kinda see what was going on.
Will Castle:And then, yeah, in in in November 2010, I got 11/17/2010, I got a call from one of his mates. I was out for dinner with some friends, and they said, look, have you spoken to your dad today? And I said, well, I spoke to him this morning, but I haven't since. This was about 05:00. And he said, well, you better try and get ahold of him because he's just been made bankrupt.
Will Castle:And at that point, I was like, ah, shit. Yeah. I spent all evening looking for him. I went to every single bar I knew he hung out in, every single hotel, called all of his friends. And then I knew where his car was parked.
Will Castle:It was in a hotel car park. So I went to the car park, spoke to the porter, and said, can I have a look in his car? Because I just really want some clues as to where he might be. And then I needed to charge my phone. So I charged my phone in the car, turned on the radio, and on the radio, I heard the central line is suspended because of someone under the tracks at Bond Street.
Will Castle:And I was outside Bond Street Station. And I called his friend, and I said, you don't think that this could be dad, dude? He was like, don't be ridiculous type thing. And I said to myself, I've just got a check. I've just got to cross it off the list.
Will Castle:And I went to Bond Street. They told me to call the British Transport Police, and I called the British Transport Police, and, yeah, it it it turned out to be him. And that's how I found out. Yeah. I mean, I still remember it like it was yesterday, unfortunately.
Tim Barber:How old were you?
Will Castle:When he just turned 22. Okay. And, you know, nowadays, 22 is not really a child, but I'd lived such a sheltered upbringing.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:I had, you know I'd I'd I'm not asking for sympathy here, but I went from having everything done for me and everything on a plate to just not overnight. And me and mom weren't really close at the time. I was a horrendous teenager and a horrendous 20 year old. So we just weren't really seeing eye to eye, and I and I genuinely just had nowhere to turn. Yeah.
Will Castle:I I I was like, fuck. I'm homeless, basically. Like, I I I don't know what to do. So, yeah, that was, without doubt the worst day of my life.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Understandably. And and and what about the sort of days and weeks that that followed? Where did where did we find you there?
Will Castle:I went back to work. He died on Wednesday. Took Thursday off and went back to work on Friday. Obviously, stupidly, my head was just not in the right place. I had a good, close group of friends, but we were kids.
Will Castle:No one had ever really dealt with anything like that before. No one knew how to deal with it. No one knew how to speak about it. No one wanted to speak about it. Let's put it that way.
Will Castle:I think it was a relief to people that I just didn't talk about it Yeah. Because it was awkward. And so I hid it all with drink and partying and doing things that 22 year olds probably shouldn't do. Mhmm. And that got me through it in a weird sort of way.
Will Castle:It helped mask what I was going through. It helped me deal with the reality of the situation. And luckily, didn't have any dependence or responsibility, so no real harm was done other than to my body.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah. To yourself. Yeah. You know, when when we met at this talk, you know, I was sort of stunned.
Tim Barber:You said you gave the eulogy and then went back into work that afternoon. Know, brave face on it, crack on. I remember standing on that stage, you know, dad was
Will Castle:quite a character. There was hundreds, if not thousands of people at this this funeral. I stood up and I gave the eulogy, and in my head, I was like, do not cry. Because dad would not have wanted you to cry. So do not cry, and I didn't cry.
Will Castle:And then afterwards, I wore that as a badge of honor. I proudly told anyone who would listen that at this funeral, with thousands of people, I stood up there and I did not cry. And looking back, I mean, how brave would it have been to cry Mhmm. In front of all those people? Because, you know, just a 22 year old kid whose life had been turned upside down, like, who wouldn't be crying.
Will Castle:Yeah. But that was the toxic masculinity side of my dad screaming in my head to not show it.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah. And and that lesson that you'd taken on board so deeply that even in that moment Yeah. You know, that was strong enough to hold everything back.
Will Castle:A 100%.
Tim Barber:And I mean, just practically speaking after that, like, did you hold on to the job or were you sort of then listlessly rolling around with this grief?
Will Castle:No. I I I held on to the job. I I held on to the job badly, very badly. Look, I was working for a friend of dad's. There was obviously empathy there.
Will Castle:Yeah. And I had a lot of rope. Yeah. But there came a point where it was not tenable for me to be in that environment anymore because of the memories, because of what I associated with it, going to Bond Street Station every day
Tim Barber:Mhmm.
Will Castle:Being in the office. It just I just needed a fresh start. Yeah. So, yeah, I left. But something really important happened before I left, which I've forgotten to mention, is I met my wife.
Will Castle:I met my wife nine months after dad died. So I was just about to turn 23. Okay. And that changed everything for the better. How did you meet her?
Will Castle:We met at a mutual friend's birthday party, like, at dinner. I was wearing an extremely tight top that that that she and I still remember. And I went to go talk to her at the other end of the table because I really just wanted to end up talking to her friend, to be perfectly honest. Yeah. And we got talking, and then when I asked for her number at the end, she was like, but you're gay, aren't you?
Will Castle:And I said, no. No. No. I'm I'm not gay. Would love to take you for a drink.
Will Castle:And she still says to me to this day, I have no idea why I gave you my number. Really did not fancy you at all. Yeah. Wow.
Tim Barber:There's a lot of material there
Will Castle:for the speech
Tim Barber:and the wedding.
Will Castle:Yeah. Well, there there was. Yeah. So yeah. And then life just got much better.
Will Castle:Yeah. She stumbled upon this guy who had lost her dad nine months earlier in completely tragic circumstances. I didn't talk about it at all to anyone, but within five minutes, I was telling her my life story. And like, fair play to her taking on someone with all that baggage. There was a lot of baggage.
Will Castle:There was a lot of baggage. Yeah. But I don't know what I would have done without her. Yeah. Gave me like a bit of a purpose.
Will Castle:She just it gave she gave me something to live for again, show show that my life didn't have to revolve around this terrible tragedy that had happened to me and that I can pick myself back up and build a new life. And it wasn't didn't have to have private planes, yachts, and mansions, and it could just be a really nice, normal 2.4 children Yeah. Family life, which is one that I didn't grow up around, but one that I live now. And I couldn't be happier with it.
Tim Barber:I mean, what a gift from from her. Yeah. What what's her background?
Will Castle:Two point four family. Yeah. The most normal family you'll ever meet in your life. Absolutely lovely. Her dad who treated me like a son, unfortunately passed away a few years ago.
Will Castle:Not in similar circumstances may have. Was just the most lovely, kind hearted, humble, generous, just 10 out of 10 bloke. Yeah. Just can't couldn't get and her mom, very similar. She grew up almost polar opposites in the most loving Mhmm.
Will Castle:Beautifully humble household. And in parts, I'm envious of that. Yeah. And in parts, I'm not. Because when bad things do happen, as they do to everyone, she struggles with it more than I do.
Will Castle:Mhmm. Because she's not used to it. Yeah. Or she wasn't used to it. And they took me into their family, and it was just there's just no turning back from there.
Will Castle:It was just it was exactly what I needed at that time. Yeah. And it was brilliant.
Tim Barber:Amazing. And we'll come on to it when we talk about the short film heirlooms that you've made and and how the intergenerational ness of this all all matters. But I just wonder, you know, you had that that nine month period and we'll come on to a bit of sort of what what men in general are going through. But, obviously, you've got the power of hindsight and time now. But but back then, was anyone able to make sense of or have some ideas as to how your dad had reached that point without anyone knowing?
Tim Barber:Am I making an assumption that no one knew sort of quite where he was at?
Will Castle:I still don't know today. There's a lot of things I don't know. And to be honest, I don't really wanna know. Yeah. It it's gone now.
Will Castle:That part of my life is I put it behind me. There's no point digging up the past because it's not gonna change the future. So so I put that part behind me. There are rumors that he had health issues. He wasn't in and out of hospital the whole time.
Will Castle:We all know he had money issues. Mhmm. We all know that he prided himself on material things that he owned and could share, and we all knew that that was a big part of his life. Look. When he died, hand on heart, no one saw it coming.
Will Castle:Yeah. Like, he he was just the last person you'd put in that bracket, and it was a massive shock. So, you know, everyone who has gone through suicide, which is a unique type of grief. I, you know, hand you know, I've lost people to cancer. I've lost people to old age.
Will Castle:But losing someone to suicide is just next level. Yeah. It's just not the same because you're dealing with all the things you would be dealing with if you lost someone from natural causes, along with the anger, the unanswered questions, the confusion, and most importantly, the shame Yeah. That comes with it. The anger is very difficult to deal with because as much as I feel empathy for him to be in that situation where he thought there was no way out, I'm fucking angry with him.
Will Castle:I'm really angry with him. Why did you leave me and everyone else in this situation? Like, I'm sad that you got to that point where you thought that that was the option, but I'm really angry with you. Shame look, I had a lot of shame at the time, not so much anymore because of the way in which society shifted. And don't get me wrong, needs to shift a lot more.
Will Castle:But look, when I went home from work on Friday so he died on Wednesday. Went home from work on Friday. He was on the front page of the Evening Standard on Friday afternoon shaking hands with the queen, and we looked very similar. Very, very similar. So I'm sat on the tube, and I see all these people reading this newspaper with my dad's face all over the front.
Will Castle:And I got out at the next stop, and I went and bought a balaclava. And I've sat on the tube wearing a balaclava because I just did not wanna be associated with this situation. Yeah. Because I was just really embarrassed, if I'm And
Tim Barber:is that why because I guess for about a decade, you didn't really talk about what happened.
Will Castle:Talk about it at all. What changed? An accident. A complete accident. Me and my wife were just getting on with our lives.
Will Castle:It was great. Yeah. During lockdown of twenty twenty, as most stories within this space start.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Does come up a lot.
Will Castle:During during lockdown, like, no one believes this, but it this was all, I swear, on my life, completely coincidence. I'd always wanted to do Movember purely to grow a mustache. I have Sure. Half decent facial hair and it was a good excuse to try and look like Salvador darling. Or Freddie Mercury Yeah.
Will Castle:Or Borat as everyone calls me. Yeah. And it just so happened to be November 2020, which was exactly ten years since dad had passed. And I said to my wife, I wanna grow a mustache. And she said, no, you look like a tit.
Will Castle:And then I actually looked at what November did, and I was like, oh, it's a mental health charity. I could do something around losing dad to suicide. That would be nice on the ten year anniversary. Why not? Genuinely not thinking anything of it.
Will Castle:Put up a very nonchalant social media post along the lines of I've lost my dad to suicide. I'm raising money from November. Please sponsor my mustache. And I started raising a lot of money very, very quickly. Lots of messages of support, and it gets addictive.
Will Castle:It gets really addictive. And then I started posting about it, posting stories, posting a bitteries, posting all this type of stuff and I got it was it was quite cathartic. It was really cathartic, actually. And then I started raising a lot of money and then Movember got in touch and they wanted to kind of, you know, help me make more money for them, obviously. And I decided no, I didn't decide.
Will Castle:I I did decide. I decided to write the story about what happened on the day that that I shared earlier. And I told my wife I was gonna do it and she was like, oh, no. You can't do that. That's that's a bit too too triggering a bit.
Will Castle:I said, no. Look. This is what I wanna do. I hope it works. And I shared it and I, you know, I raised I think it was $3 in one day or something like that.
Will Castle:And that was the start of the journey. And then Movember asked me to come on board as an ambassador, start sharing my story. And look, it's a two way street. I get I get some joy is the wrong word. I get comfort from it.
Will Castle:Mhmm. I find it cathartic. They get someone sharing their story in in the aim to raise money, and it was a really good relationship. And I met a lot of amazing people doing that. I did that for three years.
Will Castle:I traveled up and down the country sharing my story. It's a great community there. Mhmm. I still see all the staff from November. I still got all the friends.
Will Castle:Like, it was it was a great segue into this side hustle. Yeah. And
Tim Barber:how did the people you know respond who some of whom presumably knew what you've been through Yeah. Knew that you through the period of silence and then this change?
Will Castle:It's weird because my friends I can say what I want because they won't listen to this podcast, which kind of tells you everything that you need to know. My friends are still very traditional men. Yeah. I don't know if that's on purpose or just kind of is the way that they are. Look.
Will Castle:People obviously say, oh, what you're doing is gray and blah blah blah, and pat on the shoulder and pat on the back, etcetera. But it's not something we talk about as a group of friends, which is how I sort of met Josh who is our Yep. Is our mutual friend because I no, I love my friends. I love hanging out with my friends because I've been with we've been friends since we were, in some cases, five, six, seven years old. And we can be idiots together.
Will Castle:We can do stupid shit. We can do all the things that boys do together. But I need other things as well. Yeah. And that's where I get my so, you know, the the Mench community you had Josh on last week, that's where I get my spiritual mental needs, you know.
Will Castle:So, yeah, in answer to to your question, it's not really spoken about amongst my social peers.
Tim Barber:Mostly men?
Will Castle:Mostly men and their yeah. Look, their partners are my friends as well. But like, as you know, when you have kids, like, it becomes harder to socialize than couples. So yeah. I'd say mostly men.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, with the new parents that you meet with kids, it's not always, I guess, the easy It's not me.
Will Castle:No. No. Look, people see it. I'm I'm very public about it. Yeah.
Will Castle:I'm very open with my story. I am an open book. I feel no shame. I feel that only good can come from me talking about it, apart from people getting bored. Yeah.
Will Castle:So I that's why I am an open book. That's why I sit on this stage. That's why I say, if anyone was to ask me any questions, I will take no offense because that no one means any harm by anything they're asking. They're just genuinely curious.
Tim Barber:Absolutely. And to me, like, that is just so interesting that even among your your social group, there is still, I guess, some of that machoism that prevented your dad perhaps getting the help he might have needed. Right? Or sharing some of the struggles. And even though society has changed and the culture around men has changed and is changing, there's still this element of, you know, awkwardness and taboo around talking about not even something as specific as male suicide, but just getting help when you're struggling.
Will Castle:Yeah. You know, have friends who have gone through some some pretty dark stuff over the past few years, and I'm sure others have as well that haven't shared it with me. But it's always I you know, the conversation is always try and kept quite within a very, very tight group. And yet, I think there's quite a lot of that traditional machoism where there is shame in not being able to be the best version of you. Mhmm.
Will Castle:And if you are struggling and you aren't the best version of you, there is no shame in that because I can give you quite a good example, actually. I I came home having done the opening speech at heirlooms the other night not the other night, a few months ago. And my wife said to me, in a jovial way, she's like, you're such a fraud, aren't you? So what do you mean by fraud? Like, what and she was like, proper going for me, like, really laying into me, like, you know, you sworn around that stage, like, you're the be all and end all, and like, people don't know what you're really like.
Will Castle:I was like, but that is what I'm really like. And they're like, well, no, you're not. Because sometimes you're grumpy, you fart in bed, you know, because you're all this type of shit. And I was like, well, hang on. When I'm on that stage, I'm on stage for ten, fifteen minutes.
Will Castle:Yeah. It's very easy to be 10 out of 10 for ten or fifteen minutes. It's very easy. But you see me when I'm one out of 10 Yeah. When I'm two out of 10, when I'm zero out of 10.
Will Castle:And that's what it's all about. We all go through ones, twos, threes, like and it's impossible Mhmm. To be 10 out of 10 all the time. So you are gonna have ups and downs in your life, and being able to get a good support network around you to be able to deal with that and to be able to actually be open and honest about it and say, actually, you know what? I'm probably a four today and today's probably gonna be a bit of a difficult day.
Will Castle:It's fine. Yeah. Just admit it to yourself and it'll make it a lot easier. You don't have to hide away from it. And that's yeah.
Will Castle:That's my outlook on things like that.
Tim Barber:Your wife sounds amazing, by the
Will Castle:way. Yeah. Don't tell
Tim Barber:her that. And I'm curious about the change you saw in your or did you see a change in yourself when you went through this period of, I guess, sharing and advocacy? Yeah. Had you had any sort of I don't wanna call it like a therapeutic intervention, but had you had you done anything, any work prior to that? No.
Tim Barber:No. Nothing. Nothing.
Will Castle:Probably tried counseling months after it happened. Yeah. Like, to no real avail. When you say work, you mean like Yeah.
Tim Barber:Counseling, coaching, I don't know. Any kind
Will Castle:of yeah. It just I just wasn't even on my radar. Yeah. It was just like, I'd put it to the back of my mind and I just got on with my life. Yep.
Will Castle:But then there was with the benefit of hindsight, there was an underlying grief Yeah. There that just wasn't dealt with. It was just building, building, building. And who knows what would have happened had I not discovered this great new side of my life.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Because when I think about the arc of your sort of journey, you know, this feels like and that moment feels like you're sort of step into service, you know, which in the sort of 12 step world, you know, I've come through the a a piece, like, that is the final step. Right? Is is like to sort of give yourself to others to serve as a way to heal?
Will Castle:Yeah. Unintentionally. But if I'm being really honest, I think the serving others is a bit of a byproduct.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:It's a it's a lovely unintentional consequence. I'm glad my story helps people and it gives people solace and it gives me immense pride and joy that it does that. And every message I get and every person who comes up to me after a talk, I am so incredibly grateful for that and it gives me butterflies just saying that. But it helps me. This is my therapy.
Will Castle:My therapy is talking about it publicly.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Well, that's why it's I mean, I mean, like, but that's that's great. That's how it works. Right? Like, it's a step, you know, because it works.
Tim Barber:And the reason it works is because, yes, you're helping others, but in doing so, you're helping yourself. And that's kind of the point. Does that resonate with you at all with that sort of step into service?
Will Castle:A 100%. But what's really interesting is that, you know, I mentioned earlier that me and my sister don't talk anymore. And the reason is because of this. She is the total opposite to me. She's a very private person.
Will Castle:And she hated hates, I think. I don't know. Still hates Yeah. This whole public persona that I've built because she feels that it's something private that needs to be kept private. I disagree with that.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons why this topic does need to be spoken about and and why I think what you're doing is so powerful is the sort of numbers around male suicide, around suicide bereavement, which are huge. What have you learned from, I guess, connecting with others who've been through it?
Will Castle:So I would say most people who you meet and speak to have probably are connected, have been bereaved by suicide in some way, shape, or form, however many layers there are behind it. You know, stark statistics in The UK, six thousand people die from suicide each year. On average, they have five or six first degree relatives. That's thirty six thousand people Mhmm. Grieved by suicide each year.
Will Castle:One in three of them will think about taking their own life. How many is that? A third of thirty six. Twelve? Twelve.
Will Castle:Twelve thousand people. Yeah. Out of those thirty six thousand, one in ten will attempt to take their own life. Yeah. The three and a half thousand people.
Will Castle:And that's all as a result of generational trauma. That's all as a result of losing someone else. So the effect trickles down. And that is essentially what I tried to stop with the film that I created that you that you spoke about earlier.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And and we'll come on to that, and I'll I'll definitely include the film in the show notes because it's it's so moving. But in your experience and with the knowledge you've gained, like, why do you think the numbers are higher for men than they are for women of those who die by suicide?
Will Castle:Because all the things we spoke about earlier about what my dad was holding in, you know, women are naturally more akin with their emotions, more akin with their feelings, more open about sharing with their friends. You know, I get very jealous of my wife in all of her WhatsApp groups talking to her friends about everything, you know, the amount they whinge about our children and Mhmm. The amount they whinge about their husbands. Yeah. My mates don't do that.
Will Castle:You know, we talk about if Arsenal's gonna sign Victor Jokorez. Like like, that's what we talk about. Yeah. Like, there's no layered emotion. Like, if I receive a mate a text from a friend saying, you know, how you do it, like, just doesn't happen.
Will Castle:And I get very I get really, yeah, quite envious about that. And in my opinion, that is the reason why suicide is so male heavy. Like, men tend to carry the burden. They tend to feel collectively responsible for their families. I'm not saying women don't, but I'm saying just men deal with it in a very toxic way.
Will Castle:Whereas women just are better at understanding that some things are out of their control, and that's just how it is. Whereas men, I feel, will take it more to heart. And, you know, eventually those results can be quite catastrophic.
Tim Barber:Yeah. They yeah. Absolutely. Take it to heart and then just keep it all for themselves until they can no longer keep it. What do you think needs to change or or what spaces or conversations need to happen for that to be less true?
Tim Barber:I mean, you've spoken about Mench. And and for those who haven't heard that episode, that is a community for for men that was set up by a mutual connection of ours, which is kind of a men's circle. Right? A men's group.
Will Castle:Mench has given me a new part of my life, which has been so important in my growth to find, you know, essentially strangers, because they were. A lot of these people are strangers or were strangers, where you can just connect with on an emotional level. And there's no judgment. There's no point scoring. You know, I'll sit amongst multimillionaire CEOs and garbage men.
Will Castle:Like, that's and and there's no there's no hierarchy. There's no labels. It's we're all there for a purpose, and it's to kind of share your emotion and what you are going through on your individual journey at that point in time. And there needs to be more mentors. But not just that.
Will Castle:There needs to be a situation where if you're not getting everything that you need from your social circle, there is another group that you can find and needs to be easy to find. And I think that there's a lot of them happening now, which is great. A lot of the Andes Men's Club Yep. And all of that all of that type of stuff. And in Brighton, they've got Dad La Soul, which
Tim Barber:is Yes.
Will Castle:Amazing. Yeah. Personally, when I became a father nearly eight years ago, I really struggled. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. 100%.
Will Castle:The dad less old thing, think, a brilliant idea because, you know, I'm I remember sitting there after, like, two or three months of Arthur being born and just crying and tidying up his shit and feeding him and like not sleeping. Was just I was just like, people say this is the best time of their life. No, it's fucking not.
Tim Barber:Yeah. It's really shit. Yeah. Objectively.
Will Castle:And I just Yeah. Was like bursting to be able to tell someone, all my entities are like, yeah, this is great. I really love it. No. That's not healthy.
Will Castle:Yeah. That's really not healthy and society puts these things on you that you have to be in a certain way. But if we're all just honest with each other, it will take a lot of the bullshit away.
Tim Barber:100100%. Yeah. Honest with each other and you just made me think about the when we were we were a similar age, when we were becoming dads, like, the only books were like
Will Castle:Fatherhood. Great book.
Tim Barber:Well, no. There was one of those things that was like someone marine dad or like something like that, which was basically, you know, how to parent like a soldier, you know, like turning nappy to a military routine and that kind of thing. It's like, you're a man. There you go.
Will Castle:Did you read fatherhood? Because fatherhood was actually very know that. Fatherhood gave the real, like they basically say, you're going to have a shit time for six months. Interesting. So just like deal with it.
Will Castle:I've never heard of that one. It was a great I read it before parenthood actually. Thought Oh, it really helped. Yeah. It just made me think like, okay.
Tim Barber:Okay.
Will Castle:Yeah. Like, just, you know, batten down the hedges. Yeah. And look, yes, fatherhood is the most rewarding thing in the world. But for me, the first year of both of them Yeah.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Exactly. It definitely gets easier as they get older. Yeah. And look, you know, another thing that can help is storytelling.
Tim Barber:Yep. And you did that with this amazing short film called Heirlooms. Tell us a bit about the origins of that. How did that come to be?
Will Castle:Again, coincidental. No one believes all these stories, but they are genuinely true. So Luke Bruckner, who is a very old friend of mine, we went to school together. We've known each other since we were 13. Went to uni together.
Will Castle:Yeah. And then subsequently, post university, lived together. So he was living with me on the night that dad died. Just me and him. And he was a management consultant at the time.
Will Castle:And we went through that what can only be described as hellish period together. And then, you know, we kind of went our separate ways, drifted through life, and Luke decided he wanted to be a director Okay. Which at the time was that really? But but, yeah, he became a director and he is very good at it. He's extremely successful.
Will Castle:And he has produced Luke lost both his parents very, very young. Very, very young within pretty quick succession of each other. And he created a film about child bereavement and what what happens. Yeah. And I went to one of his premieres.
Will Castle:Again, by chance. I was actually supposed to be away that night, and one thing led to another, and I couldn't go. So I ended up going to his premiere. I watched his premiere, and I was, like, inspired. Yeah.
Will Castle:It was just the most beautiful piece of work I'd seen, And I still got the text. I messaged him that night saying no, not that night. The next morning saying, I've been thinking, can we do something about suicide? Mhmm. And he just replied straight away saying, yeah, let's do it.
Tim Barber:Amazing.
Will Castle:And that was it. Yeah. And then and and two years later, with a lot of late nights, a lot of fundraising, a lot of hard work, we created something that I'm extremely proud of.
Tim Barber:Yeah. And you should be. I watched it again knowing that you were coming on, and, yeah, it brought me to tears. And I'll include the link, but could you just give us sort of an abridged version of Yeah. Of what the film shows?
Will Castle:It it at first, I wanted to tell the story of what happened to me on the night I discovered dad died. And then I thought to myself that that doesn't really tell the full story. That just tells a story of a tragedy that happened that night. And yeah, it's great TV.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:But it doesn't it didn't really set out to achieve anything. And then I thought about the numbers, and I thought about the care that I received afterwards. And I thought about the amount of people that are bereaved by suicide and what they go through, not just on that night, but on a daily basis. You know, every big moment, every wedding, every graduation, every birth of a child, longing for the person that you lost. And I wanted to tell that as a story because I didn't wanna just tell my story.
Will Castle:I wanted to tell the story of the 36,000 people that are briefed by suicide each year. And we created a film that shows the impact of suicide amongst families and how that trauma can pass down through generations if not dealt with. And we did it in collaboration with a charity called Suicide and Co, who are, believe it or not, one of the only charities in The UK who deal with specialist suicide bereavement counselling. You know, as I said before, suicide bereavement is very unique. So there needs to be a unique type of
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:Treatment for it, counseling. And it's very, very limited to the services in this in The UK. Right. Considering the numbers, quite remarkable how limited the service is. So we we teamed up with this charity.
Will Castle:We wanted to put them on the map. We wanted to raise their profile, and we wanted to help them raise much easier money. And I think we did that.
Tim Barber:Yeah. A 100%. I mean, look, it backed by West Ham. It's been featured in Metro, viewed over 3,000,000 times.
Will Castle:Is that right? Three and a half million. Yeah.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Amazing. Well, I mean, what's that reception been like and those partnerships?
Will Castle:It's been it was very humbling. It was eye opening. It was one of the pride pride proudest moments of my life. But Luke said to me, he was like, when we finished it, it was done. And we were about to premiere it in front of all these people.
Will Castle:We did a premiere at The Curse in Soho. And he and he said to me, he was like he was so right. He goes, well, tonight is gonna be one of the best nights of your life, and you're gonna love it. You we've created a masterpiece, if I do say so myself. Yeah.
Will Castle:And people are gonna love it. But I'm warning you now, you're gonna go on a ride for a couple of months, and then it's gonna finish very quickly. So enjoy it while it lasts. And he was so right.
Tim Barber:Oh, wow.
Will Castle:He was so right. We rode the way for a couple of months and it was brilliant. And, you know, you get a lot of applaudits and you get a lot of publicity. And then it just goes. And and then the next thing is on people's lips.
Will Castle:We did win a couple awards recently, and it kind of increased it a little bit there. So that was great. But, yeah, the the new age of social media Yeah. People pick things up, put them down very, very quickly.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Well, we'll we'll we'll give it another boost, hopefully. What do you hope someone watching the film takes away?
Will Castle:I just want people to be seen and understood. And I just want people to watch it and think, shit, other people go through this as well. This is this is how it feels. And like, oh, wow. Yeah.
Will Castle:I go through this and this is normal and I can resonate with that. And I just want people to get a bit comfort from that. Yeah. That's all.
Tim Barber:When did it come out?
Will Castle:February this year.
Tim Barber:This year? Okay. Yeah. So your your kids were well born, older now, like you could experience the making the film and the narrative Arthur's
Will Castle:in it.
Tim Barber:As a father.
Will Castle:Arthur's in it? Is he in it? Arthur's the boy. No. No.
Will Castle:No. No. He we're in the background. Oh. So as as we're going across the I thought
Tim Barber:he was the little lad
Will Castle:the little lad is is Arthur's age.
Tim Barber:Right. Okay.
Will Castle:The little lad is Arthur's age. And it's funny you bring that up because I'm talking about generational trauma Yeah. Passing down. How can we stop that? Again, very coincidentally, about six weeks ago, six, eight weeks ago, Arthur came home from school.
Will Castle:He'd had a really difficult day at school. He's very upset, clearly angry, something had clearly happened, and he was screaming to me and my wife, I hate my life. I want to die. I don't want to exist anymore. Blah blah blah blah.
Will Castle:And my wife's looking at me thinking, like, are you okay? Mhmm. Like, is this is this triggering for you? And I'm like, yeah, obviously, it's very triggering.
Tim Barber:Yeah. Imagine.
Will Castle:And she kind of took me to one side and she was like, maybe you should tell him. And I was like, tell him what? She was like, don't be silly. Tell him about your dad. He knew my dad had died.
Will Castle:He didn't know how my dad had died. Right. So I took him upstairs and I said to him, look, Arthur, I understand you're really angry at the moment, but you've said some things that are pretty serious. Like, not do you I didn't say do you mean them. I said, look, my daddy felt the same way too.
Will Castle:You know how my daddy died? He said, yeah, he he fell in front of a train. I said, well, what if I told you he didn't fall in front of the train, but he jumped in front of the train? And Arthur was like, what do you mean? He died on purpose?
Will Castle:And I said, yeah, he died on purpose because he didn't wanna be here anymore. And like, he was was shocked. He was like, what does that mean? And I said, but you said you didn't wanna be here anymore. Is that what you mean?
Will Castle:And he was like, no, no, no, no. That that's that is not what I mean. He he couldn't understand the concept of what he'd said versus the actual reality of what it means. Yeah. And I think that conversation, I hope that conversation, and I do think it as well, was impactful.
Will Castle:Yeah. I think he understood because I said to him, look what, you know, it was can you imagine how that made me feel? My daddy wanting to die. And I think he got it.
Tim Barber:Yeah.
Will Castle:I I I for an eight year old.
Tim Barber:Yeah. I mean, look, he's, you know, he's young but the act of having the conversation is the gift really. Yeah. Right? There's I I mean, who knows what the right way is to deliver that information?
Will Castle:Yeah. Exactly.
Tim Barber:But I think we both grew up in an era where our dads didn't even have those kinds of conversations, didn't talk about those kinds of things. And, you know, talking about, like, spreading the word that you're spreading, I had a similar conversation with my son this morning because he asked me what I was doing in London today. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I explained, he knows I do a podcast.
Tim Barber:He said, what are you talking about? And I sort of told a bit about your story. And so, you know, that's two young boys who will at the very least understand that, you know, sometimes we feel things and, you know, if we don't talk about those things, sometimes it can take us to bad places. Like, what a gift.
Will Castle:Yeah. I hope so. Look. And then when he grows up, he'll see all the feel he'll see the film. He'll understand.
Will Castle:Yeah. And, yeah, the film is basically trying to tell people, don't hold it in. Because if you hold it in, bad things can happen. Yeah. And what harm is it just to get it out?
Will Castle:So, yeah, please watch it if you're listening. And I hope that if you have lost someone to suicide, it speaks to you. And if you haven't, it helps you understand what someone may be going through.
Tim Barber:Absolutely. Well, I said, we'll get the link out there and make sure as many people see it as they can. I can't think of better words to to draw this to a close with than than those. So is there any other messages you'd you'd want men to hear who are listening today or or any final thoughts?
Will Castle:Look. I I think everything we said is very relevant today. But, you know, just to practice what I preach, have a look on my website, and if anything resonates with you, please do reach out if you feel you need to. Like, my email inbox is always open. And, yeah, I'm more than willing to try and help in any way I can.
Tim Barber:Amazing. Alright, man. Well, look, thank you again so much for coming in. I I know this, you know, can't be easy to talk about, but you do it beautifully. The film's brilliant.
Tim Barber:And, yeah, keep up the good work.
Will Castle:Cool. Thank you very much. Alright. Thanks, man.
Tim Barber:So there you go. That was my conversation with Will Castle. I hope you enjoyed it. And look, it was a difficult topic at times, an emotional conversation. But I hope for reasons that are pretty clear now, it's important that we don't avoid those conversations, but that we have them, that we lean into them, that people like Will fundraise and they raise awareness to it and they make these beautiful contributions to the conversation as he's done with his short film, Heirlooms, which I'll include a link to in the show notes.
Tim Barber:So yeah I hope you took something from it and whether it's something that you've been impacted by personally or you've just seen some of the headlines that are out there around the numbers surrounding male suicide hopefully this was something for you to take away and ponder on. So as always, please if you haven't already, like, subscribe and share this episode with another man who might need to hear it and that is how we will continue to grow this movement man by man, story by story. Work hard, be kind, and I will catch you at the next one.