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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's Misha. Welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Jordan Gleaves, who's a Chicago-based actor with a growing list of standout stage credits, including seven guitars, a Jeff Award-winning production.
A Raisin in the Sun at the Court Theatre Blues for Alabama Sky at Remy Bempo and Relentless at both Goodman and Timeline Jordan's toured nationally with Montana Shakespeare in the parks and appeared regionally with the Nashville Shakespeare Festival bringing a strong classical foundation to his work Jordan holds an MFA from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and a BA from Morehouse College You can also catch Jordan in the feature film BAM
It's a lot of fun getting to talk with Jordan, we're buddies, friends, neighbors, and yeah, we get into where he's at as an actor, what's clicking with him, what's uncertain, and how he's learning to adapt his instincts for both theater and film. Talk about the practical realities of staying in the acting game, auditions that go nowhere, instincts that are inspired by play, and parts of the work that are just still inspiring the chase and the joy and the play of it all.
that's something you're into, stick around. You can learn more about Jordan on Instagram at justjordan93 and catch him in The Unseen by Craig Wright at Tin Drum Theater, which is at the Bramble Arts Loft till November 23rd. So you still have a couple of days to check out the performance to play The Unseen. You can get all that info in the show notes. So without delay, here it is, me and Jordan. Hope you enjoy.
Jordan Gleaves (02:10.574)
I mean, just even in general right now, Wednesdays are my day off from work. So a much needed reset. You know, the show I'm in right now, The Unseen, don't go back until tomorrow. So like just a nice three day break I've had, which helps our discipline to like just focus on something else right now, which is mainly my plants today. Been doing some decorating.
Yeah. I love plants. think would like to have more, more in my apartment and get in there. Facebook marketplace, a great place to find plants.
marketplace, you know, I'm by Get Samedi
Always. So then the unseen is something you're you're acting in right now and is it you're in the rehearsal process? Are you running the show?
You know, we just opened last Saturday. did. So we're going into our second week here with Tindrum Theater playing over at the Bramble Archlof. So, mmm.
Mishu Hilmy (03:01.582)
Yeah, that's an Andersonville, right? That's the building up to the second floor, the Bramble Art, Bramble Arts Law. Cool. And then for you, you've predominantly been doing acting because I know you've also had a background in directing, I think a theater, right? As well as writing.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gleaves (03:18.38)
Yeah, directing stage readings has been the capacity in which I've been experimenting with direct, not experimenting, but playing with directing and then writing. I have a work of mine that's in Red Twist Theaters, Twisted Playfest, their new works festival. So that's been a great experience with that. yeah, primarily acting is my primary outlet. Theater to be more specific.
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know you were in a Jordan's feature film, bam, broke ass motherfuckers, as well as one of the Jordan's shorts.
Jordan Gleaves (03:53.082)
I think I saw myself in there like for a hot split second, but yeah.
But for you, seems like a conscious concerted choice right now to be focusing on theater acting. Is there a difference that you've noticed for you? Like why you're like, yeah, I've been in some feature projects and short projects, but generally you return to the theater. I'm just curious what brings you back to theater, say going for camera work.
I mean, it's mainly what's, you know, who's casting me to be honest. I get the auditions here and there and I'm just not landing those. don't know what, you know, that exactly is, but I'm not, I say I'm concerned. I am curious as to, you know, maybe is there something with my theater background, you know, still needing to work to translate, not translate, to adapt to the camera for the sake of film versus, you know, auditioning for a theater audition versus a film audition.
So I'm still working on that like personally, but the theater is my, I do seek out theater more work just that I like the live experience of it. I like to say, you know, the audience feedback, but also, you know, you can't, yo, you can't stop just cause something goes wrong. Yeah. And yeah, there's no cut unless it being dangerous is going on, but it was just like, what was it? I think it was previews for the unseen. just went up on a line and couldn't remember the life of me.
just sort of ad libbing and like walking in a circle. You know, I like that experience of figure it out, figure it out. And I did, I did. I know my lot, but.
Mishu Hilmy (05:27.886)
Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a, the, beauty of the adrenaline spike when you're performing of like, Oh no, I'm in an infinite loop. I'm in an infinite loop. I'm stuck.
I love that spike of energy. love the, whether it's a house of three or at the most I've done over a thousand with my Shakespearean parts. It's just that live experience. It's the hearing people respond, you know, whether it's a sniffle or, you know, I got called up my name by one student performance of Julius Caesar. And even that I'm like, yeah, like give it to me, give it to me. I can't get that in film.
Yeah. Yeah. I think like film is a beautiful sort of medium of artistic expression, much like all mediums of artistic expression, but I do think film is more unequivocally closely related to like commerce. the goal is like you got several dozen people, maybe even up to a hundred people on set trying to make this thing with a goal of it, like reaching.
thousands, millions of people to like make everyone money. Not that theater can't make people money, but I do think it's like a different experience being on set versus on stage for with a live audience.
I will say though, do appreciate, know, the little bit of film experience I've had. I do appreciate that challenge, however, of, as I've learned from Jordan, Trey Gash gave me advice of, you know, do that thing again, you know, we're going to do another take and having to, at times, like literally duplicate what I just did. And that is a difficulty of mine, just thinking more of theater, like, you know, I just go with what I'm feeling and that's, but for the sake of film, it's think about the editor.
Jordan Gleaves (07:07.17)
You know, right. You have like five takes, but yet all five are actually literally different. That makes their job harder. So it's the, I do like that challenge of, okay, what did I do? How did I get there? Like as, as my job is in whether it's theater or film, how did I do that? How did I get there? Now let's take a film, do that literally again, if I can.
Yeah. You're serving two audiences when you're on set, you're serving the technical audience of the director and you know, the people who are physically in the space watching it and who might give notes, like you're serving the makeup artists by not, you know, sweating so hard or smearing, know, what touching your face and the director as well as, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're thinking about the editor, but, you're also, you know,
Not that in the moment you're thinking about it, but it's also in service to the story that's going to see a broader audience. So I do think there's like a certain challenge there of like, it's, two plus audiences versus like when you're on stage, it's like, these are the people who are ideally physically in the room who are seeing me right now. And then like, for sort of, you know, auditions, know theater does like lend itself to stylization, characterization in a capacity versus style for filmmaking is a little bit harder to convey because of
Exactly.
Mishu Hilmy (08:23.564)
whatever kind of default of reality. Like what's your relationship to performance styles, you know, in auditions or on sets or on stage?
for the stage auditions, it's something that we started to work on when I was in grad school. And that is, I mean, in this case, a lot, lot of these auditions are self tapes now. So you are having to act or the camera you are having to, like, I'm having to consider these days, like, what is my framing? know, they'll get, if it is just chest up and sometimes getting literally to a T like chest up, no negative space or only a couple inches of negative space above my head. So in that case, I got.
I feel like in ways I am having to play big, but smaller for the sake of staying in front, even though it is a theater audition, which is, which, which, you can lend itself, you know, can be easier at times and other times it's okay. How do I, how do I play this moment where maybe there's a lot of physicality going on, but all I have is my chest up. How do I, how do I still get that across for the sake
the stage, but then having to recognize things, helps me is, well, this is just the initial audition. The callbacks will most likely be in person. So I can play that moment if it's the same sides. I can now play that bigger, but for the sake of this, you know, play it smaller, keep it contained, still give it all. And then when it comes time to get in that room, let it out, let it all out.
Yeah, and has it just been since lockdown and COVID that it's been more theater companies are opting in to just doing initial self-tapes?
Jordan Gleaves (10:00.43)
I've, I've seen it more for myself post COVID. I mean, I graduated with our masters in 2018 and it was then for us that I only did a few self-tapes, you know, for professional audition during the, during the summertime. But even then, while I didn't really know it, like I know it now they were in ways like, Hey, like this is the way the industry is going. There's going be a lot more of this. So, you know, we're going to be doing mock auditions, you know, as if you're going to do a self-tape. We're going to.
watch those in class as part of the lesson. Like, you know, let's give out the self tape. How's, how was your, it's, it's going to be very film like, like, how was your lighting? How was your sound? Like, you know, you don't necessarily need a fancy mic, but okay. Like I live by a street now. So, you know, like always, how can I, how can I drown that out? Like I said, how's my lighting? How is, you have a backdrop? You know, it's, only intensified more and more I think since, COVID, which I prefer in person, but I do like me.
That ease that the self tape allows of, know, I'm not having to drive all the way down to wherever the theater is. Yeah. And just for the, just to maybe hope to get seen or to get seen, but be there for like five hours. can knock this audition out in 30 minutes.
Yeah, yeah. It does seem there's sort of like a risk reward and a, even a better payoff in terms of like your body and sharing your body in space. Yeah. To be like, all right, you got to drive to this audition place. You got to sit around for a few hours, maybe depending on how backed up they are. And then you go in. But I think that the risk is like self tape people watching it can sort of default into expecting filmic performances rather than, know, what do you bring as a fully embodied or.
you know, a body character.
Jordan Gleaves (11:40.898)
Which I will say quickly, just that point of which I have appreciated. I've seen it in a few audition notices that I've had where they will give a note on to not play this like it is a film audition. Like, yes, we're having your only waist or chest up. Like don't play this as a film audition, like still play large, like during the theater, which I have found great freedom when I, when I see those notices, like, okay, yes, one, like, yeah, thank you for that reminder that this, I can still play. If I go out of frame, you know,
That's fine.
Other than sort of the technical element of like you physically being there, you recording yourself, what has been, you know, your discoveries around risk taking or adventurous auditions or just like your audition process in general, what have you been finding that gets you in a place of, you know, focus commitment or play or whatever kind of point of focus you'd like to do for auditions?
At least give myself, you know, 10, 15 before I, you know, even after I've already set up giving a moment just to just play around honestly with it. Just, you know, loose a goose. like to say, you know, do it not how I'm planning to just to keep myself loose, comfortable. And then I give myself a three take max, which helps my process. Rather a three full take max, you know, if mess up fine, but only three full takes. Something again that I had.
Nice.
Jordan Gleaves (13:00.398)
a tip that I got while I was in grad school, a three, a full tape max, and you got to choose from there. Yeah. After those three, you know, I think that for me is what ultimately helps me keep focused. Or if I am, you know, maybe getting a little sloppy in my takes, like, okay, that was one full take, you know, I can go great about that, but you got two more, but also in, but also in those betweens, I to do what is known as a PSA, a positive self-assessment. And when I prep for an audition, uh, where I give myself,
three things that were working, not as the actor, but as the character. So, you know, like, do I quote unquote see the person that I'm talking to all about what my, all about as my character. And then I only gave myself one thing that is not that I didn't do or that wasn't working, but one thing that was missing. Another way of phrasing is if I could do it again, which I'm going to, what is one thing that I want to, one element that I want to incorporate in this next take. If it's from, if it's from reminding myself that it could be like, you know,
I want to remember that I'm in my living room and my, somebody in the, in the room next to us remembering that might be something I want to incorporate into that next take. So those are some things that helped me out of, you know, keeping it loose and goosey, also like giving myself a tape, a taping max and a personal feedback.
Yeah. Cause like, how did you develop that? Cause to me, think that the additional risk of the self tape that's totally inorganic to a regular in-person audition is like you show up to an audition, you're in front of the casting team and the director and maybe the producer is, and they let you do your one or two monologues and they might interrupt you and say, thank you. And then you're, you're off, you know, this to get the self takes and repeat takes. like, how have you organically developed your relationship with.
the risk of maybe perfectionism of I got this camera in front of me, it's in my apartment or it's at his studio and I can do this theoretically for an hour. can do a dozen takes if I really want to.
Jordan Gleaves (14:55.438)
I mean, well, having having already been in those positions earlier on of, you know, doing, you know, 10, 15 takes and here I am literally like an hour later and we're like, why is it? Why am I not having fun anymore? Which is biggest thing. So why am not having fun? Well, it's because yeah, you're, seeking the perfection. You're trying to be perfect with this and that's not going to happen. Like I've submitted tapes where, yeah, you know, I forgot the line, but I think what helps me is just like treating it like it's in person is I'm a human being.
these characters of people, like we forget what we're going to say all the time. So like, may, if like, it's, if it's a little crap that I will say, like at the same time, okay. Yeah. You see me working through, you know, going up on a line and that's part of the audition. Like, cause I may go up on a line on stage. So I try to just remind myself that yeah, if that happens, does it still, am I, am I still a competent telling the story in this audition? So if yes, just like got, went up on a line. Cool. You get to see me one, how my interpretation of.
This scene, you get to see how I also deal with a struggle, which may have been going up on a line when it's in person. If it is just that one and done, it's reminding myself that, you know, I always want to leave the room feeling that I like, gave what I could offer, you know, after that it's out of my hands. And I'm, and that's still difficult at times, especially when it's a project that I feel really close to. But I think over these many years of doing this, it's learning that you went in there, you did it, got let the shit go and now just go on about your day.
Yeah, cause ultimately it's like out of your hands, right? You could have the best performance you've ever done in an audition space, whether it's self tape or in person. And they're well, lead is very short and Jordan's too tall. So I just don't think it'll look like sense on stage.
Yeah, it's having to remind myself that yeah, there's maybe it was something I did, but you know, there's a thousand things that I, it could, a thousand reasons why I didn't get cast in this. So rather than trying to land on what the answer is that I can't ever know if that was the answer or not. Just it could be the, was too tall for the person they had in mind, who they already cast as my scene partner.
Mishu Hilmy (16:59.086)
How do you activate that sense of fun or that sense of play when you're doing a self tape versus activating that sense of play or fun when you are about to walk into a room for an audition?
think it starts for me even before the audition on like whether I'm saying yes or no to the project, to the audition. I think that's how the fun is activated is, know, if I'm not vibing with this project, like I'm not gonna have fun doing it. It's like, I'm not gonna have fun even auditioning, even memorizing the lines. So I gotta know something like, is the fun coming out of, this is a challenge like the show I'm in right now. Like, there's a challenge with the language that my character has. Like that's fun. I wanna take that on now.
Yeah, once I get in front of the camera, let's say I've already said yes to the audition. So this already sounds fun. I think it's, I don't know, actually, I've not thought about that. Like how do I activate the fun? In the room? I just tell myself, you know, or just remind myself to have fun. I think maybe it's, I think maybe it's, I'll think on that. I think maybe it's just a reminder.
there's sort of instinct, there's impulses and there's choices. So it's like when I think back to my time in theater of specifically toward improvisation of like, did I choose to play today? Like maybe earlier on when I was first learning, it was like, oh, I'm just so kind of overwhelmed that I'm just trying to make it work rather than I was offered something, a gift or am I playing this moment or am I choosing to play this audition or am I so focused on booking the job that I'm worried about the job and not the moment?
that I'm in and nothing's like right or wrong, but it's like a conscious MI of like choosing to, you know, inject a bit of whimsy or fun or risk taking.
Jordan Gleaves (18:35.598)
Talking about that, it does remind me of, I know I've mentioned grad school over the uptenth time. I don't know why I keep thinking about grad school right now, but I remember, and it's carried over to even now, like giving myself, I had this motto that I would use or this slogan or whatever that it was called cliff jumping for me. And that's what I had named for my, for risk taking in an audition and you know, in a performance of cliff jumping, like
Rather than play it safe, maybe just find a moment where I just, just try something. No, not exactly about it being the right choice. Just, just jump off the cliff and just see if it lands. Experiment.
And you still find that like, that's part of your process or is it something you're like, I haven't thought about this in a while that I used to integrate a sort of a cliff jumping mindset.
No, it's, still part of my process. Because Mishu, comes up when, if I find myself stuck in a rehearsal, I'm like, why am I just not reading this? it's because I'm so, I'm so focused on like showing you that I did, that I, that I did my homework that I, I learned the lines last night. I, I remember my blocking. I wrote it down. When it comes to me trying to prove to the director, to the cast and director that I did my work as a good student, whenever that happens, I remind myself that wait, no, have fun.
What does fun look like for me? Cliff jumping. So go in that room, have fun and remember, cliff jump, cliff jumping.
Mishu Hilmy (20:02.382)
I do think it takes a while to sort of dismantle the, the expectations that have been kind of set upon you through years of either learning or doing it or different kinds of advice. You know, I think there was one period where I remember either a teacher or casting directors, like we expect you to be word perfect in auditions. And I'm like, Whoa, I don't think I'll ever, like if that's the expectation I'm out, like I don't want to be like at most 80%. Like the gist, but for someone to say, well, when you're going for an audition, you need to have that.
shit memorized. It's like, no, I'm not going to spend 30 minutes or an hour to memorize something when I'm not even, you know, but again, that's like my, that was my perspective. And, know, but I think you got to have some, some way of dealing with all the different noise to get back a noise toward you to be like a good person or people pleaser or do it the right way. When it comes to theater work, there's new plays and there's classic plays and older plays like
speed.
Mishu Hilmy (20:55.714)
How differently do you approach say an audition for a new work where you only have the sides, you only have a scene versus approaching an audition where you could go to the library and pick up the play playbook. like, does it create a difference having access to the whole script for older works versus new works where you might not?
It does. It does. I will say that in my experience, it's, I've been fortunate that even in new works that the script usually is provided or what there is up or what script there is, it's typically, is usually provided so that I have more context. But if ever that's not, you know, providing, it's just the sides. It's me reminding myself that I have that freedom to, know, this is all I got, you know, so as, as a writer as well, I just, okay, what is, what is my story for this thing? No. If all I was.
It's these two, these two people in a relationship and it's Rocky right now. And I just have these two pages. Okay. Well, I'm just going to make shit up and. but if, if I have the script, definitely is a like read the story or at least, or at least read, if not the entire play, at least read.
my scene and the scene before. Read the character description and all that good stuff. Outside of that though, it's treated, it's in both them pretty the same how I go about, know, looking up words I don't know, having done a lot of shakes where like that's just carried over into contemporary work for me of like, I don't, there's, there's been a lot of words in the show I'm in right now. Like, I don't know what that means, but let me look, but so I look it up, even if I think I know what the word means even like, I know that there are multiple,
Either, either I know that there are multiple definitions of this one word or if I don't know, I just, just look it up. Just look it up and apply the context to and find out which, which, uh, which definition is most appropriate for this word.
Mishu Hilmy (22:43.124)
So imagine it's similar with references, right? They're referencing like a pop album from the 60s. Yeah. I don't know this album.
I don't know. So I'm looking it up. I'm, I'm, I'm marking up my script of where the, where do I think the beat changes are? What are my tactics? You know, what are my objectives? What is the operative and this line of, so it's what started out for me, you know, earlier on as, this is classical tech. So I have to like treat this kind of way in this so I can be more, you know, chill about it is now they both, both the prep has its way into both. It doesn't matter as much. There's not, there's not as much difference on how I go about it unless like
Like you're asking like, unless there's less than one has a script that's provided in one dozen.
I think what I'm also getting toward is like decision-making, right? So you auditioned, it's a new piece and then they want to offer you the role. It's like one thing to know Shakespeare, we want to offer you a role in Shakespeare play versus we want to offer you a role in a brand new play. So maybe they give you the script at the audition or before the audition, but usually it's just the sides for newer works. At that point of the offer for a new role, do you have typically enough time or a chance to read the
the new work before saying yes, because he could be in a scene and like, oh, this is an interesting scene. And then you read the rest of your play like, oh, this is a problematic play. like, how does that impact your decision? Yeah. For newer works at least.
Jordan Gleaves (24:03.714)
What is usually helpful in those cases then is being told in the offer. But it's usually, I will say given is usually provided again, just my experience alone is usually has been provided even in the audition invite that the script is that there will be revisions happening during the rehearsal process. Typically, you know, the writer then will be in the room, you know, the actors like we'll have a chance to provide feedback, you know, offer questions. And the last most important thing for me is like, okay, well,
Is there a date where, okay, there were no more revisions? Like this is the script that I have memorized versus, you know, it's changed in the day of our first audience. So yeah, usually that's provided in the audition, but if not, definitely by the offer, like me, knowing that will there be revisions or is that, or is that an option on the table for there to be revisions throughout this rehearsal process?
Yeah, cause I'm really curious about like what filters you have between sort of saying yes to a role because I know in the past for me, like, I'm, I'm just happy to be invited to the party. You know, I got the offer. Of course I'll say yes versus as one matures, you're like, just because they're inviting me to the party, doesn't mean I need to show up. So do you have filters or guidelines you like to use to go, Hey, I had a great audition. The sides seem interesting.
But this or that reason is why I'll say yes or why I'll say no. I'm curious like what kind of filters you typically use or don't use, cetera.
Yeah, I'm past this headspace of mine where it's a, I'm just happy to be here. Like, you know, I'm happy to be in the room. I'm happy to give it the opportunity. Thank you. it's, I am having a reshaping at this time of, you know, just audition dude. You know, it doesn't mean that you're saying yes to the product. Especially if it's someone who I've not worked for, if it's not a company that I've auditioned for at all, or not very much of, like just audition. Just so they see me.
Jordan Gleaves (25:54.222)
See what I can do. Get a, get a vibe check of me. And when it comes to the offer though, like, and I may butch this, was trying to talk to somebody recently, a few guidelines that I, that I had been given by a, by a friend of, you know, if it at least checks two of these three or five boxes, then I would move forward. Like is the pay, like how was the pay? Is it a project that you are, that's going to challenge you? Is it a project that has people that you're excited to work with? And if you can at least say,
If it was those three things, like you can at least say yes to two of those. Right. And it sounds like a project, you know, strongly consider and probably say yes to if it's only one or none, then this may not be the one. Yeah. Say no to that. So those are typically been guidelines as I go, how I go about making my decision.
I think that's a great spirit because it's like you're, you're allowing expansion in like, I'm going to audition. I'm going to get reps. It's a joy to spend 10, 15 minutes for this thing or that project or this idea. And just cause I auditioned for it doesn't necessarily mean I'll ultimately say yes to it, but I still think that's pretty expansive because you're allowing yourself to practice, play, and also have boundaries of, all right, I did a great audition. They want me, but does it align with these three or five or eight criteria and.
I think that just empowers you as like someone who has either taste or decisions that guide your growth.
The decision to, you know, do more of, you've been called in, just audition. This is a pretty recent, I think the past year or two where I shot myself. was a great, it was a great learning lesson where I shot myself in the foot of like, got an audition for this company and you know, I already had tentative plans later that year. And I was like, no, I'm not going to audition for that. Like, no, because I've already got the same lined up. Like, mind you, like no contracts had been signed, nothing. It was just a verbal, you know.
Jordan Gleaves (27:40.43)
this is happening then. And I put all my eggs in that basket and I was being told like, you should audition for this. It'd be great for you. Yada, yada. And I was like, yes, it's true, but I already got this other thing. And when those plans fell through, I felt so dumb. I felt so bad. was like, you should have just auditioned, dude. Cause even if you didn't get it, they, they saw you. Yeah. It was, was a big wake up call after that specific instance a year or two ago where I was like, okay, yeah, this doesn't feel good.
I don't want to feel this feeling again. Just audition.
After the audition process, how, like how have you interact with rehearsals? You know, what's, what are things that work for you directing the styles that work for you? I'm curious, like in the rehearsal process, things you're excited about, like what's been really exciting you during that, that move from say audition to now rehearsing for a performance.
Most of memorization comes from being in the room, know, getting a vibe check of my scene partner, scene partners versus coming in, you know, already off book. You know, that's not been my way of going. I know that works with some people. It's not worked for me. At point though, I am recognizing with a show like The Unseen right now where while it was difficult to memorize the material, I think that I, no, I think I'm...
I know I made it harder for myself and not prepping way ahead of for as much time as I had beforehand. You know, it was very much a, well, I I know what works for me and realizing in the rehearsal process that yeah, I should have taken, you know, now if I say I'm memorizing, just being just very, very familiar with the text. When I get in there, the memorization comes more easily because I've been saying these lines for the past three months. Even right now I'm having a, you know, I'm readjusting on what that, on what that process looks like to me. But you know,
Jordan Gleaves (29:28.504)
to your question, like, you know, what kind of directors have I realized that I like working with? I learned that working with Chuck Smith, you know, I will name drop that off. Having a director who, and it's, it's, it's been lovely that I've come in contact with many directors who are this style where it's quite hands off in a sense where it's like, I cast you for a reason. You're the professional. Let me tell this one time. He's like, you're the professional. I cast you for a reason. You know, when you're bullshitting and when you're on, I'm here as a director. I'm trying to focus on like.
the blocking and like knowing that we have tech and like, so I'm trying to make sure like where do I need you to be? Because the lighting is going to be right here based on the theater that we're going to be in. I'm thinking he's all this other stuff, know? And I love that hands off approach from a director, you know, versus the other style, which it's not a bad thing. I've just said it doesn't work as well for me of being very, very particular, very overly hands on in my case, you know, like I need you to like care, like stopping every moment. Okay, you know,
not giving you a live reading, consider saying it like this or being very prescriptive. That's very prescriptive. Yeah. Versus, you know, I brag, not I brag, I bring up a lot like in these directing styles of like working with Chuck and do well, like, you know, you have like hours of rehearsal and he may give one note. Yeah. One note and that's it. And it doesn't mean that you do anything wrong. It doesn't mean that you did everything right. Just here's one note, shoe on this. And if I didn't give you a note,
You know, still go home and again, you know where you need to pick up and where you're you're at. I appreciate those new directors who can do that. Part of how I go about is, you know, open heart, open mind, try it 10, 12 times. And if it's working like, Hey, I have this alternative idea that I like to try for this moment. Yeah. And have any directors. Yeah, go for it. Cool. You know, it sticks and sticks as long as it's serving up the play, moving the story forward. Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it's in the spirit of collaboration. And I think there's that flexibility where they might give a recommendation and you committed to it. You're trying it, but as you're, know, you know, think actors are the experts in the character and the directors and the expert of the story. So it's like, try and trust like Ken Jordan get to what needs to happen to sort of hit those moments in the story and then let, let you figure it out. But yeah, I think it's a, it's a tough thing to navigate when you might have someone who's very prescriptive.
Mishu Hilmy (31:49.014)
And I think that just slows down the rehearsal to be like, all right, getting hung up on one moment. think that's where like everyone has a perfectionism, but it's it's a strange thing when the story gets halted because the director's like hyper fixated on like three random throw throw away moments. they like, no, you gotta walk this line to this section. Why do I gotta do that?
Which I mean, and I'm not against that. For me, it's at that point, even speaking on, on me, having directed sage, like sage ratings, like it's for me, that's fine. Cause that works for some actors. And at that point for me, it's like, know your actors. Right. Maybe you need to be, you know, maybe I need you more hands on. Maybe this person needs a more hands on experience to get to where we're all go. And this person needs like, Hey, let them like, I'm gonna sit back and let them cook. Right.
Oh yeah, this work for this person is going to work for everybody in here. And that's, that's where, that's where I, that's where I can find myself withdrawing is, Oh, you're not even giving, you're not taking a chance to learn how I work, learn how I like to collaborate. And I've been so small, man, I won't get into a story of it, but like having a tele director was like, yeah, I would respond like that. You've just not taken a chance to get to know me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like for you, like, how do you, how do you approach maybe the opportunities for getting new tools within each rehearsal process? Like, are there tools that you, that you kind of go to that you use a lot in your tool belt and are there also rehearsals where like, wow, I never thought of doing it this way. I'm so appreciative. Like I'm wondering like what's your relationship to kind of techniques or tools that you bring ready, ready equipped versus things that you might be offered in rehearsal, some that work, some that don't.
Go for walks. Go for walks and working my lines. I've been doing this for, since 2018 when I discovered that like that did really well. me, let me keep trying that. And that's if I'm not in rehearsal going for walks and just, just running the lines. don't, I'm, I don't know exactly why that helps me so much, you know, aside from just being on my feet, but it does. And a new thing that I'm wanting to find, you know, maybe, and maybe you have some.
Jordan Gleaves (33:58.786)
You can name drop some apps for this, like I've discovered in this new, in in this show, like I try to pull from what other people do, you know, like I'm struggling with this and finding, finding an app where I will typically use my recording, Apple's audio on my phone and just record, record those lines. I've recorded my listening partner's lines and just repeat it back versus apps where I keep on the name of it, where you can record all the lines and you can decide if it says everyone's lines, just your lines, just your partner's lines.
I'm always open for new ways in which I can get to where I want to get to even faster. in memorizing, but typically in my processes, I go for walks. like to put on music. Again, going back to the lucid gooseiness of it. you know, maybe one more, maybe it one, maybe one night run the lines to DMX and then the next night lines to, I don't know, like, let's yeah, like just,
or revolver or whatever.
But it gets me just for the sake of while I'm not in rehearsal, keeping it fresh and not getting so stuck on, this, I'm going to say this line. Right. Yeah. Unless, unless I'm being intentional with that for the sake of, I just need to memorize this monologue and I'm struggling with. So for right now, I'm going to memorize it at this pace, get this word until I'm so comfortable in it that I can now start to let that, let that go. And I can be more loosey goosey with it. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's, mean, a lot of the actors sort of the challenge and the monotony of, of like memorization, like I love learning languages. So the only thing I would pitch is there's no, the brain has no central storage for memory. So it's like all, all memories are like associative. So I just think the more, I don't want to necessarily use the word random, but the more you can associate new memory to what you're learning, the easier it could be retained. it's like, Oh, well, I've never done dishes learning, practicing this line.
Mishu Hilmy (35:52.142)
So then I maybe I'll practice doing dishes while running that line or stuff like that, or doing pushups for a certain line. So to create as many new fresh novel connections, because if you're always like sitting in one corner in your apartment, this is the corner where I memorize lines. It's not organic to how the human brain retains language and memories. It's, know.
That's why think going for walks probably really helps because every time you're maybe muttering or practicing the words, you're in a different physical location and new associations are inherently tied to that specific line. yeah, I do think novelty really does help.
Thank you. Thank you. I've noticed myself that, you know, I think that is a nervousness that I have to learn to get past is well, I've I've never tried running the lines, running these fresh lines, you know, while doing the dishes. Like, I think it's that perfectionist mindset of like, well, I don't want to try doing, I don't want to the dishes until I become, until I'm more solid on the lines versus.
I don't know the lines at all. So I'm going to do the dishes. Like, no, that's, that's, that's getting out of my comfort zone. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, think to break through that, it would be a solid breakthrough because it's like, you're creating an impediment within yourself of like, can't explore. can't play until I'm perfect or I'm good enough versus like, what if I don't even know the line, but I'm going to, I'm going to start as a bullet point. Well, I know the character says something about dating. I don't remember the line exactly, but I'll just riff on dating and be like, okay.
Mishu Hilmy (37:22.9)
I got three out of the 30 words, at least I allowed myself to like play around with it, you know, and embody it in a different way.
And see, I'm going to spiral only knowing three out of the 30 words, but you are very right. And this is exposed in the light. Maybe this would, this, this is what would probably help me greatly. That's very, I appreciate that.
Totally. It's all in spirit of play, right? And I think that's why I'm drawn to the arts is like the anarchy and the play of it versus like, want to try to avoid as many qualifiers as possible of like, no, you can only write a script if your outline is perfect. You can only create a perfect outline if you're using this type of pen, you know? So it's like, how can I avoid that and go, no, for this one, I'm, I'm, I'm writing with a scented marker.
And I'm only using one syllable words to do a, outline. What would that yield? And that just invites maybe a little bit of creativity and play versus, you know, a novelty rather than, you know, father knows best. know best ego knows best. This is how I've always done it. I can't diverge. And I think as an artist, you're inherently curious. So I hope you keep practicing and fucking around with like, how can I surprise myself? if it's scary.
Thank you. I've just been telling myself these past few days, will reminding myself, the older I get, my mom, she's very right. I struggle with change. I can, I can, I can struggle with change and adapting to new, to new methods or possibly, or possibilities on getting to the same destination. So that's, I will take this as a sign to, yeah, just do what I've been talking about our time, which is having fun with jumping.
Mishu Hilmy (38:59.864)
Sorry.
Mishu Hilmy (39:03.446)
Yeah, man. Yeah. I think, I mean, I get this on Tik Tok or on Instagram reels, maybe six months ago, something like a reel about, your anxiety is coming from an unhealthy relationship with certainty. And it's like, seeking, I'm hyper seeking certainty. And maybe that's not the most helpful because the world is fundamentally unknowable and fundamentally uncertain. So is it really helpful for me to like create constructs that are demanding certainty? Well, I can't audition for this because
I don't know, they don't have the dates or they don't have this or they don't have that, or I can't write this because I don't know if it's the market wants it. like, well, how about I chill out? Nothing's going to be certain. And how can I approach it with like gentleness and lightness? But, then like, around learning lines, cause like, to me, I think a lot about going to the gym, which is very difficult to have something be consistent. So like, how do you deal with maybe some of the more monotonous gym like elements of the craft?
Amen to that.
Mishu Hilmy (39:59.458)
Like how do you, how do you maybe stay motivated when it's like, okay, I got, you know, this is a 90 minute play and I'm in 30 minutes worth of scenes. Like what's it's like doing your reps, going to the gym. how do you stay consistent when it's, it's, it can get monotonous.
I mean, I know I've been plugging the show, The Unseen, but it's literally like, I would often have these moments like, okay, you there's only like 47 pages of this. I'm on page 26 right now of memorizing or, you know, doing a run. I'm around page 26 right now, so I'm more than halfway there. I think just telling myself, breathe, take my time, slow down, it's a constant for me of having to remind myself.
whether in the rehearsal or in the performance. I've had to do that think almost every night with this show up to this point of in these three runs we've had so far of finding moments where I'm getting uneasy or I am getting into a kind of getting a little robotic with it. I've done it this way. It's what just worked. I'm losing the fun. It's okay. Like my attention just left. Why? Okay, because I'm on autopilot right now. Breathe. Maybe even right now on the stage, like stop moving for a moment and just check in with, oh.
You know, this particular part of maybe this, this, this person's. Modellogue I've not, I'm not necessarily like leaned in and listened to this particular part of the story. Just a moment and just pick up one new, one new word that you've not, that I've not heard in this, in this monologue of theirs and just respond to that. Right. It's a long room. It's a lot for me of this needing to slow down and breathe.
and just lean a little bit more or a little bit differently. think that's what else, you know, not to be so robotic or to fall into autopilot mode. Yeah. Repeatedly or so, or so often.
Mishu Hilmy (41:54.318)
Yeah. Cause I think it gets me just thinking about the gym. Like there are no bad reps as long as you don't get injured. Right. So it's like slow down, breathe very applicable to also like being in a gym. And it's like, yeah, how can I, cause yeah, when I'm on the treadmill or when I'm lifting weights, it's like, all right, just come on five more, you know, do like five more lines, five more minutes, five more pages or whatever. But the reward is in, in the doing of it, but it's like finding all the different ways while you're doing it to like.
be present with it. Cause yeah, it's not always going to be manic joyousness, super whimsy, super playful. But I do think it's like, how can I at least allow for variability or presence when something could be very repetitious? Like, you know, I'm going to be present to my scene partner versus like, all right, I'm just waiting for that queue line. I'll wait to get hit with the queue line and then like moving into performance. So it's like, know, you're doing a run of a show for X number of weeks, X number of performances.
What, what are some things that you like to lock in that are different from say rehearsal to when you're, you know, live and on stage that, you know, work for you or haven't worked for you.
Before every show, like to, you know, I get to the space, my highs, check in with the stage manager, check in with my scene partner as a director, whoever's in the space, just, hi, how are you doing? Drop my stuff off and I go into the space and just take that in. Everything from the chairs to the lights, walk on the set and I like to try to find just one new thing I've not noticed on this set.
It can literally be, oh, I didn't know this part of the painting of the wall. Like it looks like a dolphin. I've never noticed that dolphin right there. Uh, I think just, just keep keeping it fresh in that, in this way, the dust room, but also it helps center me for the show. I'm about to be doing it. Also it reminds me that I like to be grateful that I have this moment to do this right now. I say, I say a quick prayer before I leave the set of just.
Jordan Gleaves (43:55.896)
just out of gratitude for this moment. I'm, having the chance right in this moment to do what I believe I've been called to do. I'm having this moment to don't know when the next gig is coming. You know, it's, it's nice if, if I'm on a hot streak right now, but that could end after this gig. you never know. like, it's just taking the moment. Like I get to do this right now for an audience, you know, whether it's, know people are coming or not. So yeah, I've taken that set and then it's heading back to the dressing room to.
You kind of let go, you know, be a little loose again, but yeah, it's the I'm here. You can do a job. Here to have fun, just checking in with myself when I show up.
And then once you sort of hit the stage, what's that experience like for you? How do you attune to the audience or disregard the audience? Like what's your relationship like once you're in it? I imagine it's in a flow state and you don't remember much. You're just like, shoot, 90 minutes they just disappeared. Anything going on then?
I try not to, you know, I, I do try not to focus too much on the audience, you know, especially, especially when I got somebody out there who I know, like whether it's family or just, you know, a really close friend and acquaintances. I always say like, my main rule is y'all are not allowed to sit in the front row. You cannot sit in the front row. If you do, I will, I will be mad in that moment. will be like, but even if you're in the back row, once, once if I see somebody, I know like once I see that person,
I have to now like find somewhere else like to look in this. It's okay. Like they're here. I don't, I can't look right there. Yeah. I try to tune out the audience. I always get those, those, but I think are good nerves. get on that stage and like heart is pumping. You know, it's a mix of that, you know, do I, do I really know my lines? Do I really know the show is the perfectionist department did, but I think also it is, it's the, it's the excitement of I, I get to do this. I get to do this. Like it's time. It's actually time. And then those lights, those lights come up and it's almost like,
Jordan Gleaves (45:54.974)
All that just leaves once I get the first words out or the first nice point that I'm listening to it, it just goes and it's I'm here and then yeah, it's before I know. yeah. The 90 minutes are up or up. It's curtain call time. Yeah. I try to just keep it. It's, just me and this people or this person up on stage with me. It's, it's hard. It's, like to think that it's, hard to look out into the audience for a reason.
Yeah, there's, I
Here are-
They go, yes, I do. There are days where like, my goodness, like it's, it's a, it's allowing myself to, feel those moments. Like I'm cooking right now. Yeah. I'm on it. Like, but they're like acknowledged, but, but then to almost, you know, just as quickly as that came to let that go, just stay in that state, you know, I was actually just telling, was actually just talking with someone recently, saw a Nate recently, for those listening, that's my partner, Nate. The night they came, like there was a moment like,
I was in this flow state and there was this tremoring happening in my voice that I, it just happened. And the little man, the machine came in. He was like, that's hot. I'm cooking right. But then just as, just as quickly as that, as that voice came in, now I'm starting to perform. let me melt this moment out. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's use this like to, to convey this moment. It was like, now this is becoming less.
Jordan Gleaves (47:47.918)
genuine and more of I'm trying to impress. So it's for me, as I had a professor say, even he was like, I've been doing this for decades. I'm never a hundred percent there. I may be 90 % there and the other 10 % is, I tacos after the show is done. What kind of tacos do want? At the end of the day, I'm a human being up there.
And just as it is, when I'm, when I'm talking with you or anyone, it's like, you my attention is here with you, but also at times the attention is going to go to dinner. And that's just as real as okay. Is that is just in our day to day, like that, like I have to be okay with that up on stage as well. Like I'm in this flow state and that flow state is going to break. But as long as I'm still at least mostly here with my scene partner on the show, like that to me is what's important. You know, as long as I.
Like, sure. Let me allow myself to recognize that. yeah. Like I'm cooking right now or, it's the same thing. as, just as I was like, like I'm starting to kind of freak out right now. Like, Hey, checking in with myself, breathe slow down just as much as that's important to remind myself to slow down. It's just as important for me to acknowledge like this, this rope, maybe this new discovery I'm having or this very fun moment that I'm having now. Those are both just as important as the other.
Yeah. I don't think I've thought about it before, it kind of reminds me of meditation practices where it's like, you know, let go of your thoughts. And when you're on stage, it's like, you're in a state of hyper-presence, but also sometimes that presence gets interrupted with an idle thought or a curious self-celebration. But for the most part, it's like a beautiful thing to be flowing and being very present. I think it's maybe the closest analog I've had to think about meditation of, maybe that's what they're meaning by like, let the thought go, forget about the thought.
What a gift to be in a place where you can practice that degree of presence and let go of those moments when you're thinking about an audience member or you're thinking about dinner or you're thinking about how to milk a moment or whatever.
Jordan Gleaves (49:50.062)
It's, it's a, it's a beautiful moment that, you yeah, like I also know how to put into words. like, I've, I have felt it. I felt that flow state so much in this, in this show already in just three performances, um, since opening. It's, I walk away being just amazed at the human mind. Oh, like memorizing all this and like what it really, what it really can feel like.
and sound like when one is really leaned in and tuned in with their characters given a certain chance and also just where their scene partner is. It's a high worth chasing continually. I will
Yeah, it's like, it's kind of sometimes an unspeakable experience because the words can't quite convey. Sometimes I remember it would feel like I lost myself and sort of merged into something clear, more authentic or more human or more eternal or infinite or metaphysical. And just as quickly as that sensation exists, it goes away as soon as I realize I'm having that sensation.
and then after the show, just got done. Like what's your relationship to the post performance, you know, seeing your friends in the, you know, in the lobby, getting compliments, getting criticism, getting feedback. Like how, how do you navigate that after a stage performance?
It is, it's first, just like, you know, I mentioned with auditions, it's, it's doing a PSA, you know, after the shows, you the bowels have happened, you know, actually even before then, you know, the show was done, it's the curtain call. Like it's taking in everyone, know, thanking them. mean, thanking the stage manager. It's again, recognizing that I have had this opportunity and that this is the last time I get to do this. I want to take in as many people as I can in that moment for leading the stage. Cause.
Jordan Gleaves (51:36.14)
It's live. don't know what life's going to throw my way, you know, between then, between then and the next time I get between the next performance. But it is after that, is doing a PSA. Yeah. What were three things that were working for me as the character? Not as like, or it's not about, I remember my lines. That doesn't matter. It's, I smell, you know, I could, that little drop of water, I, it reminded me of, I don't know, when they were waterboarding me in the show. Right. It's, but yeah, like see, you know, after, you know, being out there,
the audience, know, getting that feedback, both, you know, praise and if there is some critical feedback, you know, it's reminding myself like, you know, each of those are this individual person's experience with the show. The one who was very, who was as well as the one who who, who was in it and got it from beginning to end. You know, these are all individual experiences. Um, it's just, at that point, it's just fun to share. Yeah. We all just, we just all went on that ride together.
Ha ha.
I had a memorized, memorized line for the sake of this ride and you had to sit there for 90 minutes, you know, for this ride with your suspicion. We were all on this ride together and it's just fun to celebrate that moment, to celebrate the art that was your film. And whether it was, you know, I guess going to go good or not a good performance, whatever that is, like it's, it's still the fact that like you showed up, we got up there and did something. Let's just celebrate that. Let's by celebrating, let's, let's just talk about that. Let's just acknowledge that that art was done.
Right. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (53:02.894)
Yeah, that's sort of an ancient art form, which is also sort of beautiful, a communal experience. And I think that's the beauty of theater. All theater is community theater. It's serving a physical location, a physical space with your neighbors who can go see it. Given how uncertain life is, the world is, and the sort of arts are in the entertainment industry is, how do you stay motivated with that uncertainty?
remaining great that I've had the chance to do what I do. All that work is done in the audition, as I've been talking about it. It happens when I go and walk the set before the show. It happens when I take in the audience at the curtain call. It happens when I give myself that PSA after an audition, after a performance. I think doing all that work helps when the world does feel so uncertain. All that work is already being done so that when
When I do face those uncertainties, it's I'm just grateful that I've had a chance to do, to do this one more time that the audition itself, that is my performance right there as well. It's not a performance doesn't happen when I get cast and performance is the audition itself. think also just in the moments of uncertainty. Yeah. Like staying, staying aware with what's going on in the world. Like it is the reading, you know, it is the what's going on. But it also is the, I need to off social media for the rest of the day. Cause this is just too much to continue to read.
Yeah.
Jordan Gleaves (54:24.974)
To appreciate the art that I'm doing, appreciate just the art that I'm not doing, I just need to get off and just not read the news, hear the news, think about the I just need to go take care of my plants.
Well, Jordan, this is absolutely lovely getting to talk and I'm so grateful we get to share time and we're neighbors. that's, grateful for.
No, I really do appreciate this. I, I even in this talk, it, it gives me a moment to pause and to think about like, yeah, like how do I go about doing the art that I do? Why do I do it? And how do I make sure that I'm, I'm in a good enough space to continue to do it and what helps me to do it? I appreciate this opportunity. It's always good chatting with you.
Yeah. Well thank you, thank you so much.
you
Mishu Hilmy (55:13.486)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, let's do a fun prompt. Something around action. Yeah, let's...
close the loop around avoidance. So this is just to pick the smallest step. Look at your to-do list. Find one of the items that feels big, seems big. Just spend 10, 30 seconds identifying the smallest units of action related to that item that feels big. know, if it's right a screenplay, maybe it's a small action item is a piece of paper and a pen and outline and doodle and circle. just list, list smallest units of actions related to.
big thing. that's it. Micro chunking, whatever. Avoid, destroy the avoidance loops. And yeah, I'm rambling. So enjoy the rest of your day.
Jordan Gleaves (56:35.478)
you