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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
We are in Hungary this week with Krisztina
Molnár who runs an organization which
of course in Hungarian has It's called
this, 'cause I'm now fluent in Hungarian
'cause I did this in Google Translate.
Elektrevalo Gyermekekért AlapÃtvány.
AlapÃtvány.
Okay, which apparently, with a bit of a
play on words, it doesn't really translate
fully into English, means something along
the lines of Child and Horse for Thriving
and Resource Foundation because there's
something a little playful in there.
And I got a sort of a doubtful nod
there from Krisztina Molnár, so
it's something along those lines.
But the reason I wanted her on the show
was she came at the recommendation from
someone else who's been on this show
from Norway, the august and respected Dr.
Norunn Kogsrud.
And Norunn is an equine assisted
psychotherapist a psychotherapist anyway,
a doctor an actual medical doctor,
a very accomplished dressage rider.
She's also a Horse Boy practitioner.
She's also a TTouch practitioner,
and she also knows Igala, and she's
one of these sort of all-round
wunderkind superstar type people,
and is also jolly, jolly cool.
And she contacted me a year and a half
ago or so and said, "I've just been
in Hungary, and I've met this woman
called Krisztina Molnár, who has this
incredible farm out in the east of
the country, and Rupert, she's kind of
doing a lot of the same work that you're
doing and getting a lot of the same
neuroplasticity results in the brain, and
you really need to talk to this woman."
So I'm like, "Norunn, if you tell
me I need to talk to somebody,
then I need to talk to them."
So we started talking and then we met.
Krisztina came out to Spain and worked
with us and our horses a little bit,
and I'm about-- This is September 2026.
I'm about to go out to her place
and check it out, and we will do the
first Horse Boy and other stuff out
in Hungary, so that's really exciting.
But to be perfectly honest, Krisztina
would be absolutely fine if she never
met me because her work is amazing.
I've looked at it online.
It's entirely child-led.
The horses are thriving.
They're in amazing condition.
It's one of those gold standards
of neuroplasticity and gold
standards of horsemanship place.
So I was intrigued, and I was like,
"We've gotta have her on the show."
So without further ado, Krisztina,
thank you for coming on.
Can you tell us who you are,
what you do, and why you do it?
Krisztina Molnar: Thank you
for your invitation and extra
thanks for Maroon connecting us.
And yeah.
Basically, I am a clinical
psychologist in Hungary with training
in equine-assisted therapies.
I am spe- specialized for kids, so
most of the time I, I lead the clinical
therapies for kids and parents.
And I also have certification in working
with the dogs, so I can also include my
therapy dogs into my therapy sessions.
And now I, I had a dream and I'm
very lucky to be able to live that
dream, which was, of course, not
that easy the way to get there.
Now I ran a foundation which has been
operating for six years now, so it's not
that old where we we kind of give home
to all kind of animal-assisted therapies
and activities, which includes mostly
therapies for with assisted by horses.
That means we have a classical
clinical equine-assisted psychotherapy.
Then we also provide therapies with
the, for the ne- neurodivergent
population, which is like a little
bit like special education, Included
with the animal-assisted work.
We also offer family
therapies assisted by animals.
And we also have some very nice
and wonderful group therapies for
children and, and adolescents.
And we also have,
Mm-hmm ⦠how to call it?
Horse-assisted- Mm, mm ⦠family
group therapies for parents,
which is wonderful to have.
And of course we we also
provide services for adults.
So if adults are open to
animal-assisted work in their own
self-development, that's also an option.
This is the therapeutic
part of the foundation.
And since I also have some little
background in dressage riding we also
run a riding school, a little riding
school, where children can come to
And spend their time fully in a
joyful way, or the, it's, there's
also option to work with the, with the
international dressage trainers and to
go on shows which also happens to us.
And we run a little vaulting team as well.
So there's also- That's a
lot ⦠an option for vaulting.
That's a lot.
Yeah, that's a lot.
Yeah.
And how many- And at the
moment- Go ahead, sorry.
At the moment, we, we have 14
horses at the farm, and three dogs.
And
Rupert Isaacson: it's- Okay.
Krisztina Molnar: They are all included.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, I presume
you don't do much sleeping.
Krisztina Molnar: I'm trying to.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
This is not the kind of work that only
one person can do, so you obviously
must have a team to help with this.
How do you organize this?
How do you put this together?
Who is your team?
Krisztina Molnar: I am absolutely lucky
to have a wonderful team, and actually,
truth to be told you know, first when I
started this foundation, my plan was to
have four up to six horses where I work.
And, and I can be perfectly separate
in my- ⦠in my fairy forest where I
live- Ah, yes, yes ⦠with, together
with my horses, and, and that's it.
And and I'm gonna live a
very peaceful and quiet life.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: And that's not what
Rupert Isaacson: happened.
Peaceful and quiet.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Krisztina Molnar: that's what happens
Rupert Isaacson: when you run
an equine-assisted service.
It's, it's so peaceful- Yeah, but that
was not- ⦠and it's so quiet and
⦠Krisztina Molnar: that was not originally
the plan because then I realized that,
okay, some children came that they
also want to ride, or they wanted an
option to practice dressage, okay?
Then we found a way.
Then a colleague came that,
okay, that's a very nice idea.
What if I, what if I take part in?
And then parents came that they
need help with this and that,
and we found something else that
could help them- Mm ⦠actually.
And, and once at a time, I realized we
have 16 horses and many, many families.
And you know, everything
just just grew around.
And there's only one point that we all c-
Try to keep in focus, and that point is
that we run something as long as it serves
all participants in the story, and it- Mm
the clients are included, the animals are
included, and the therapists are included.
Mm.
And if something works like
that, then it's gonna work.
And now it seems that having four horses
and doing some clients of my own was not
the way that serves- Mm ⦠the most,
me or the clients or the animals either.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, absolutely.
So
Krisztina Molnar: this is
how it happened, by accident.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you, you talk
about a fairy forest, you know.
I, I'm looking forward to
coming out to your fairy forest.
I'm a great believer in the power
of the forest or any nature to reset
the human organism because obviously
that is the environment that our
organism is supposed to be in.
And it's very interesting to me, this,
this has come up in conversation in
this podcast a little bit of late.
It's interesting how in science and
in therapy we use expressions like-
The, the mind body
connection or something.
But we don't say the foot body
connection or the nose body connection
or the arse body connection because
your foot and your nose and your arse
are all clearly part of the body.
But if we were to do an experiment to see
if the mind and the brain are part of the
body and we separated the brain from the
body, it would be a very short experiment
with a very predictable outcome.
So it's interesting that even in the
scienti- the science which knows full well
that the brain is part of the organism,
we still in therapy ex- seem to express a
kind of surprise that working in a natural
environment would produce better results
than working in a clinical environment.
So, but of course it is
going to get a better result.
It will always get a better
result because it is where our
organism is supposed to be.
And when I'm working in places where
almost all of the work is done inside,
you know, in a indoor arena or in rooms
in clinic, in, in clinics, generally you
just do not see the same positive results
that you see when people do it in nature.
So you are doing it in nature.
Tell us a little bit about what
brought you out of the arena
and into that, because you're a
dressage person, you like arenas.
You know, dressage people love their
arenas, you know, and they really
wanna stay sucking their thumb in
their arena and that forest out
there is big and bad and full of
crazy stuff and my dressage horseâ¦
So yet there you are
doing it all in nature.
Why?
What, what changed your perspective?
Krisztina Molnar: I think I mostly
change, or, or I most chose this
kind of environment because I knew
myself enough to know that I need it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: I need that to
function the best for me, and I, I
really need that environment when,
when, you know, the day is over or,
or people are gone, then I need that.
I needed that environment
basically to, to recharge myself-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Krisztina Molnar: in, in a bigger scale.
And what you've just mentioned is
very, very interesting, and I totally
agree with, with the part that in
any kind of horse-assisted therapy
or equine-assisted therapy there's
always a factor which comes together
with the environment of the horse.
And of- in psychological work, we,
we really like to have and work with
horses who are, who are as health as
possible or as healthy as possible
in in physically and mentally.
And of course- Mm ⦠if you want a
mentally health- healthy horse, you
need a natural environment for them.
And this is a factor that affects
therapies deeply, even without
entering a therapy session.
And that gives gives, as aâ¦
In my work, that gives me two
very important e- experiences.
One is this is very- That,
that can go very, very deep.
And if something goes very deep, it also
has a very big chance to grow, and there's
also a, a very big chance to fall apart.
And that being included in, in the
forest or being surrounded by nature
and seeing some deers and foxes on
your way, or looking at the small,
tiny house in the middle of the
forest, that, that are so archaic,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Krisztina Molnar: structures and
patterns that can drive anyone
into very, very deep, very quickly.
And that can also be kind of a danger
because for patients who are who
cannot use their impulses so nicely
as as later on with therapy work, or
children who are not contained enough
and who are overloaded by impulses,
they are going to be afraid of the
forest, and they can fall apart by that.
And there, itâ¦
When you have a s- tiny indoor or you
have an arena where, you know, there's a
barrier, a scene barrier which keeps you
together, that can help.
And sometimes I, I really experience
that children were, who were too too
much overloaded by impressions and had
no really help to, to keep themselves
safe enough from their own impressions
were very afraid of the forest first
Rupert Isaacson: Did you find that that
fear of the forest lasted, or did you
find that it went away relatively quickly?
Krisztina Molnar: It, it depended
on many different aspects
Rupert Isaacson: But in general
Krisztina Molnar: It depend- in
general, where the connection and the
relationship was quiet, easily build
up with the- Mm ⦠parents, and then
with the child, then it went quickly.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: If not, then it's not.
Rupert Isaacson: If you find that
there were some dangers of working in
that kind of natural environment yet
you still do work in that environment,
so clearly you feel that those
dangers are worth the risk of facing.
Krisztina Molnar: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Whyâ¦
Yeah, whatâ¦
Tell us your reasoning process then
of saying, "Well, okay, if there's a
danger here, why do I still do it?"
Krisztina Molnar: Because I because
I believe that You know, that's the
⦠When, when something can go deep, there's
also a danger and there's also a chance.
And the therapist's job is to use that.
And, you know, if we have to face
with some kind of dangers, then we
would have face it al- also in a
room, in a clinical environment.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, I agree.
It's- And- ⦠it's
interesting ⦠Go ahead.
You go ahead, sorry.
Krisztina Molnar: A- and, and just to
add it, that that's why we also have
a an arena where we- Mm-hmm ⦠can
work, or there's also a small indoor
where we can work, and there's also
an inside place where we can work.
Right.
So I can absolutely tune to the
psychological need of the kids or
the client- Mm-hmm ⦠with how to
keep him or her absolutely safe, or
the safe as, as safe as possible.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
You know, it's funny, when we were first
working in Texas Texas is a more hostile
environment in nature than Central Europe.
So for example, we had
many poisonous snakes.
We had many poisonous plants.
And we had many poisonous insects.
And because my family is from Africa,
where we have the same thing I know
that kids learn really fast to organize
themselves in these environments,
provided you make the first contacts
with that environment very controlled.
And I was always surprised at how
we just did not have problems with
this even if I sometimes expected to.
And interestingly, the only times I
really saw real problems were where we did
actually work in an inside environment.
Because w- but we designed the geography
of the place around the needs of my son,
and my son was a kid that would run.
He was what you call a runner.
You know, I'm sure you call
them that in Hungary too.
And I was like, "Well, you know, how
am I gonna, you know, cope with this?"
And then I realized, ah, well,
he tends to run along the
easiest path of the, of going.
Like he doesn't run directly into
the thick vegetation because it's
too difficult, and he sort of
perceives it as something like a wall.
So we started to make trails
that were circular That would
come back on themselves.
So I could literally say to a
child, "Okay, you wanna run?
Run."
And, "Oh, there you are."
They would come back to you.
Or if they wanted to really
run away, we could make several
loops where they could avoid you.
But on each of those
loops, we had a person.
And then we found, ah, yeah, if the
child runs 500 meters like this,
after that, on a hot day, after
that they're like, "Okay, fine.
I'm done with running."
And we never had to say, "Don't run."
Yeah.
We also found using trampolines
was really useful for this because
you could use a lot of energy,
you know, in a, in a safe space.
And then we did have an arena.
We had a covered arena, but the
sides of our arena were open, so
you could see into the forest,
and you could go into the forest.
But there were really obvious
trails, obvious paths that we knew
the child would take, and then
we could be a little strategic.
But your point about fear of the natural
environment is interesting because my
family, for many years ran safaris in
Zimbabwe and in really wild country.
And you would be walking,
and the elephants are there,
and the lions are there.
And obviously you do this with a
qualified guide, and there's all
these safety precautions and so on.
But nonetheless, you know, you could
get stomped by an elephant or you could
get eaten by a lion, theoretically.
And we would find that there were
some people who would react with
great fear when they came out And that
fear would usually last three days.
It would be really
acute on the second day.
They would wake up in the middle of the
night, they would hear the animal sounds.
They'd, you know, they wouldn't sleep.
Theyâ¦
By day three, a shift would happen.
By day four, they were deeply into it.
They were going into their, the
resetting of their nervous system.
They were starting to really get
interested in the animal tracks,
really get interested in the plants,
really get interested in the insects,
really start to look at the detail.
And by day five they would realize,
"Oh shit, I have to go home soon,"
and they would start to cry.
And theyâ¦
It was always the people who had the
biggest fear reaction who then became the
most deeply enchanted by the wilderness.
Do you find that there's a similar
correlation in your clientele, the
ones who exhibit the most nervousness
at the forest then become the
ones who are often the most forge
the deepest relationship with it?
Krisztina Molnar: I think as a, as
a therapist or as a psychologist,
I think it's, the most important
thing is to understand that they
actually, they are not afraid
of of the, of the nature itself.
It's just a thing where their impulses
are projected, and actually they
are afraid of their own impulses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: And if you can
contain them, if you mirror them, if
you comfort them, then it will change.
But, you know, a big forest is
a very nice thing to project
impulses and unconscious fears.
Mm.
And this is why it's so fearful for some.
But that's not the
majority, that's for sure.
Mm-hmm.
For the majority, it is it is a really
nice place to relax and be be very
close to themselves in a peaceful way.
Rupert Isaacson: How typical-
Mm ⦠is your place in Hungary?
Do most equine assisted places work
in this way in the forest, or are you
somewhat of an exception, do you think?
Krisztina Molnar: That's a good question.
I I'm just starting to think of of other
places that I know and of course they
are more or less much more natural than,
than a normal h- riding school, for
example, or, or they are very close to
forest connection or nature connection.
But maybe, maybe our farm
is a little bit more se-
into the forest
And not, and it's quite far away
from big roads or big traffic
connections, so that means only
two kilometers from a main road.
But, you know, it's it's quite a long
distance when it's not in 200 meters.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Is there a strong culture in Hungary
of going into the forest, even
for people who live in cities?
Krisztina Molnar: I think not really.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: But
Krisztina Molnar: actually, I, I
don't live in the city anymore, so
I have no idea about city customs.
But what I can imagine is that there's
a growing population who tries to
care about themselves more and more.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: And probably they
have more idea about going to the forest
and connecting with nature, and that's,
that has something with biophilia and
wellbeing and something like that.
I, I am convinced that there's a,
a growing population of that, but I
don't think that this is a real strong
tradition like in Norway, for example.
Or
Rupert Isaacson: in Germany, for example.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Or in Germany, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That, because,
Krisztina Molnar: yeah-
It's not that popular.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's what I was wondering, 'cause
yeah, I lived in Germany, I worked in
Germany for- Mm-hmm ⦠eight years, and
I really appreciated this relationship
that people had with the forest.
Even people from the city would
take time to go into the forest,
and the forests often went right
up to the border of the city.
So you could be ⦠Like, if
you're in Frankfurt, you can be-
Mm ⦠out in really deep forest
within five minutes, 10 minutes.
And people really do.
And in the autumn, people are there
looking for mushrooms, and it's
part of the culture, you know.
So and I know that other parts
of Central Europe you have this.
So I'm, I'm intrigued to know that that
maybe isn't so much the case in Hungary.
Which is my next question.
Why do you think that is?
Is that because of the
experience under communism?
Is that something to do with
the post-World War II culture?
Was it more there before?
Talk to us a little bit
about the mindset of Hungary.
You know, how people operate there.
And also, how do they view special needs?
How do they view mental
health traditionally?
Krisztina Molnar: That's
quite a difficult question,
Rupert Isaacson: Rupert.
Hmm.
That's why I asked it.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Take your time
⦠Krisztina Molnar: I, I think that
has something to do with the, the
communism, that somehow people were
were kind of, blocked from their own
psychological needs, and that was
adaptive to be cut from your needs- Mm-hmm
⦠because this is how you could survive.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: In the in the ⦠As
far as I am aware of of the official
results, I think Hungary's mental
health is not really good in general.
And a lot of actions would be needed to
maintain it somehow or to get any better.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: That means I think we
⦠The third reason to, to be incapable
of work for long run is depression.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: Which is
quite convincing data of of the
state of, of people or mental
state of people in a country.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: But that should
be checked or double-checked because
I am not sure if it's a fresh data
or not, but as, as long as I am
there I think that's the case.
Rupert Isaacson: Now-
Krisztina Molnar: So-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: go ahead, sorry.
Yeah, I interrupted you.
Krisztina Molnar: So I think in general
Hungarian people are not living
a quite high level of mental
ha- health-wise at the moment.
But there's also definitely a kind of
promising projects and promi- promising
phenomena that, that shows that
something is happening in a positive
way or a positive outcome can happen.
But we have a long ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, whatâ¦
Okay, so we touched a little bit on the
experience after the war with communism.
Yeah ⦠so Hungary was of course a
place of high culture leading up to
World War II, at least in the cities, and
produced, you know, all sorts of culture
and then of course under communism,
well, you know, the, it is what it is.
But of course there was an attempt similar
to the attempt in Prague in the 1960s by
the Hungarians to throw off the Russians,
which of course failed in the short term.
And do you think that that attempt and
that failure was what sort of produced
a, a state of despair to some degree?
Or do you feel that the mental
health issues in Hungary actually
are independent of that and have
their roots in other things?
What, what's, what's special
about Hungarian depression as, as
opposed to British depression or
Norwegian depression, for example?
What, what's specific to your
country and your culture?
Krisztina Molnar: Probably I don't
have enough knowledge about all
the historical roots for that.
But I think there's something in it
what you're saying that Hungary is
basically a very, very traumatized nation.
Mm.
But, mm, failing by the Russians or
being kind of conquered by the Russians
was not the first time of being- Okay
conquered.
And still somehow, somehow, mm, we still
have quite strong roots in Europe since
the nation has been here more than for
1,000 years- Mm-hmm ⦠still surviving.
We have no idea really how.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: And and you
know, I think there's a big-
amounts of transgenerational traumas
Which I think can be the basis of,
of of the current mental state.
It can happen, but has a, a
very big influence on that.
Rupert Isaacson: You know-
And- ⦠human brains are so strange
because you can be in countries
where life is really very good.
For example, Norway, you know,
we met through- Mm-hmm ⦠our
mutual friend, Nolan.
And, you know, you go to Norway and you're
like, "Wow, it's beautiful," and, you
know, everyone's quite wealthy, and, you
know, everything works, and hey, it's
sort of a bit like Canada, you know?
And y- you run into people who
are really depressed, you know.
But then people will say, "Ah, yeah,
but Rupert, remember it's dark for half
the year, and remember, you know, there
are these cultural things," and so on.
I say, "Okay, yeah, I can
understand that," you know.
And then you go to oh, the USA, and,
so I, I still live and work a lot in
the USA, and there's a special form
of madness there, you know, which
is almost a kind of paranoia where-
The, like people feel, "Oh,
I've got to have a gun, you
know, to protect myself fromâ¦"
And, you know, and you've got
someone like me who grew up partly
in Africa, and it's like, "Who
are you protecting yourself from?"
I mean, you know, I can, I can
take you to places where you
might have to protect- You need
protection ⦠yourself a little bit.
But, you know, not here in
suburban Indianapolis, no.
You know, but, you know, it comes
from a history, particularly
also with slavery and guilt.
Mm-hmm.
And then there's inherited trauma of not
just for people whose ancestors were the
slaves or whose ancestors were the, the
Native Americans, the Indians who were
had the genocides, but also the
trauma of being the perpetrators, the
trauma of being on the wrong side.
Mm.
And then you want to push that away,
and that results in a special kind of
poor mental health, and one can see
this, you know, and understand this.
And then my family in South
Africa, very similar type of story.
So I'm always intrigued why the human
brain goes so easily, even when life is
quite good- Mm ⦠to this negative place.
W- what is your ⦠You're a
psych- You're a s- you're a shrink.
You're a psych- psych babe.
What, what do you think about this?
Because it's every country
Krisztina Molnar: I see your
point, and actually I think it has
something to do with attachments.
There's a lot of information-
Mm-hmm ⦠which has an influence on
your neurological system- Mm ⦠has
something to do with attachment
in theâ¦
We, we are prone to give what
we have unconsciously fromâ¦
to give pass, to pass it to our children,
even from a very young age- Mm-hmm
which is totally unconscious.
And, you know, when when you go
on a way for 100 times, then it's
always much easier to go on that
way than on a different way where
you have already walked once.
And I think that that kind of gives a
feeling of safety- Mm-hmm ⦠because
this is what has happened-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Krisztina Molnar: for generations
and generations and generations.
Rupert Isaacson: Familiarity, yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
That's familiar.
Familiarity, and that's a pattern, and
probably that's why it's so difficult to
break out and to build new connections-
Mm ⦠to ourselves, in our brain, in
our relationships, in our attachments.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that
is why nature works on that- Mm-hmm
psychological level because inâ¦
You know, I have been lucky in that
I've spent a lot of time with hunting
and gathering tribes, so completely
opposite culture to our culture.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And w- what one observes
in the, when the situation is going well,
when they are on the land and they have
their resources, is all of the things that
we think of as justice, like for example,
equality between men and women, or the
rights of children being respected, or
non-hierarchical leadership where you have
a group of old people who have a lot of
experience, and you and me go to those
people when we need direction and answer.
And it wouldn't matter if
they were male or female.
It's all about experience.
And of course, you're on the land.
There's enough food to eat.
You're efficient at getting food, so
there's time for culture and conversation
and fun and dance and spirituality.
Mm.
And but th- this is the main thing.
When people live in that way,
particularly in a place like Africa-
You, the human, are only
halfway up the food chain.
You are not the top predator.
You're not the lion.
You're not the hyena.
And so the culture is about resolving
conflict, because if a conflict
gets too big and the community
splits apart, then every single
person will get eaten by hyenas.
And this is the human experience
over 300, 400,000 years.
And now f- for 10,000 years, since
more or less, since our experiment
with agriculture, we now have
a culture of conflict creation
Resources become scarce.
We overpopulate.
Now I need your family to be the
slaves on my farm because I need
more labor, more labor, more labor.
And injustice will creep in.
No, sorry, you do not have
control of your uterus anymore.
I need 10 children.
In fact, I need 20 children.
I need five wives, and I need,
I need slaves, and I need, you
know, and I need, and I, you know.
And now we need to go and have a war
with the people over there because, you
know, it didn't rain here, and it rained
there, so they have food and we don't.
So I'm wondering w- if the, this is
really more deeply cultural, and so
by taking people into the forest, you
reunite them a little bit with that
original state of conflict resolution.
Something in the genetic memory
goes, "Oh, I remember this."
What do you think?
What do you-- Well, what do you observe
when you're working in that forest?
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Krisztina Molnar: So speaking,
speaking of the forest, it,
it comes with low connection.
Okay.
But I think I was I, I could get
your point, and I think it has
really something to do with with
the process, what's happening in
therapies and in human's mind.
And I also have another idea of,
of how, how nature is a kind of a
pattern or a model of of resilience
because it doesn't work in a way
that our modern culture works.
So, you know, if there's an obstacle for
a tree, that the tree gr- grows around,
and it doesn't try to grow 100 times
in the same way where it's not working.
And I think that's also something that
has to do with the, the energy around,
and the atmosphere around the therapy.
Mm-hmm.
That o- in one hand, it, it, it works
in a way like you said, and I think in
some other hands it can also benefit in
a way like this, that nature shows lot
of patterns how to, how to process and
how to deal with difficult situations.
Rupert Isaacson: That is
conflict resolution, right?
But conflict- Yes ⦠resolution not
through combat, not through fighting.
Do you, do the, do the clients, do
you find that the clients draw these
conclusions themselves spontaneously?
Or is this a sort of conversation that
you would have when you go into the
forest, talking about that tree or how
the water finds its way or something?
Krisztina Molnar: It depends.
It can happen both ways.
But, mm, when, when there's a therapy
session, then we have an invitation
for the client for a situation, which
can be anything, like observing the
horses or doing this and that with the
horses, and doing this and that with the
forest, or just observing the forest,
or just finding a place in the forest.
And then what you need for, for
the therapy as it, it will come
up with you or, or it will comeâ¦
You will come across the therapeutic
material- Mm ⦠what you use later
on with the, with the therapy through
the conversation and through the
corrective emotional experience.
This is what, how, how therapy works.
And as a therapist, your, your
task is, is to click and help
finally in the integration.
But most of the things when you are an
animal-assisted therapist, that most-
Mm-hmm ⦠of the things can happen
between the nature and the client and the,
the therapeutic animal and the client.
And you are there to translate
and to understand what's happening
Rupert Isaacson: When you bring
people into the forest like this-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: let's say, it's too
hot today or the weather is really bad.
So you say, "Okay, I'd like to go into
the forest, but today's a bit difficult."
And let's face it, it has to be very
difficult because you can always, if it's
cold, you can always put on more clothes.
If it's raining, you can
always put on clothes.
You know, so, so maybe th- maybe
there's sometimes, though, when
it's just a bit too extreme.
If you then choose to work inside, do
you bring the aspects of the natural
world into the room or into the arena?
And if so, how do you do that?
Krisztina Molnar: I think including
any kind of animals will bring
the aspects of nature into the-
Okay ⦠therapeutic sessions.
Even if you are in a room with
a dog or with a bunny- Yeah
that will bring the nature in somehow.
In in the arena, it's, you know,
it's also outside or we are in such
a lucky position that our indoor
arena is total- totally transparent,
so actually you are in the forest.
You just- Wow ⦠have
a safety bubble around.
Okay.
Which was not deliberately like that.
It was the cheapest version, and-
in fact, turned out to be the
best version for therapies.
So you're, you're half
in and half out in the-
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, okay
⦠Krisztina Molnar: in the, the Hapsalot.
Rupert Isaacson: That
makes a lot of sense.
Do, have you had your clients express
that to you in tho- in that language,
say, "Oh, this is like being in
the forest in a safety bubble"?
Krisztina Molnar: Oh, yes.
Sometimes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
That's very cool.
Krisztina Molnar: That's cool
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and then
you can say to them, "Yes.
Yes.
We designed it that way.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We-" "Has nothing to do with the fact
that it was just the cheapest option."
Yeah.
It's
Krisztina Molnar: often- Yeah, but that
has psychological benefits for sure
because- Mm-hmm ⦠it's if you think of
Winnicott, then this is the transactional
space where, you know, when normally
in safe attachment there's between the,
the mother and the infant, then there's
there's a space which is half in and half
out, and it's, it's transitional space.
Mm.
And this indoor is, is the symbolic
of a transitional space because we are
half in and half out, and this is also
the space what we need to grow inside
this, the personality to be, to have
enough safety inside to look around and
observe what's happening inside me and
growing in the inner safety, which is
the basis of any kind of good connections
and good- yeah, functioning in life
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
you talk about half in and half out.
Yeah ⦠because you're familiar
with the word academy, for example.
You know, a- an academy, people usually
mean by that a place of learning, right?
An academy for this or
an academy for that.
But an academy actually means
exactly what you described.
A garden, usually a, a herbal garden with
a, in a courtyard with shaded areas where
people can sit half in and half out.
Mm.
Because of course this came out
of Athens in Greece where it was
very hot and sometimes very cold.
And the Academia, which is
where Socrates was teaching and-
Mm ⦠Plato was learning and so on,
this is the architecture of that.
And of course, all the early early
universities in Europe were on this model.
They were usually in monasteries,
so religious buildings-
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: or, or public buildings
that were built around this pattern,
and the teaching happened in this
half in, half out environment where
you could observe physics, you could
observe nature, but you could also be
protected from the elements to some
degree in order to, you know, concentrate
on what you were trying to learn.
So it's very interesting that
you've either consciously or
unconsciously taken that model.
Okay, talk, talk to me about how you work.
You, you have lots of
different modalities.
So equine-assisted psychotherapy
obviously, I think a lot of
listeners are probably quite
familiar with how that works.
But the other stuff that you're doing
tell us about the other aspects of your
program that maybe we're not so aware of,
because you've got a unique environment,
and I'm sure there are things that you're
doing that we could learn from, which is
why we wanted you to come on the show.
We want to steal your secrets, basically.
Krisztina Molnar: I, I, I don't
think there are any secrets.
Because it was, it was what you say,
that that was most of the time quite
unconscious how things worked out.
Mm.
And that was absolutely based on how
we tried to adapt to the circumstances.
And if you have a forest next
to your arena or around your
farm, then why not to use it?
So actually using the environments
developed around how we could adapt
to circumstances like you have
already mentioned, that there's forest
next to us, then why not to use it?
If it's too hot, then it's much nicer
to ride in the forest, even if it's- Mm
⦠riding school, even if it's therapy.
And then we started to build, ⦠or
started to find magical places of the
forest where, where, you know, you can
use in therapies and stuff like that.
So we have a forest for the
fairy tales where you can wish,
and your wishes come true.
Like I wished once six horses, and be
v- very careful what you wish because
then you have 14 . And there's also a
little mound where all your problems
can be blown away that we can find any
time when it's needed or the ⦠So a
magical place which is the middle of
the forest where you can find the most
magical things that you don't expect.
And, you know, through, through the
process and through the s- sessions
and through the psychological needs
of our clients, these places happened,
and these places were created.
And then, of course, it's much easier
to come across with the same place
and with the same idea for, for the
next therapy or for the next clients.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you
go, for example, to the mound
in the forest where your-
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: problems can go away how
literally are people interpreting that?
So for example, if they sit there and say,
"Okay, I have this problem, and I want
it to go away," and then they come back
one month later and say, "Hey, Christina,
I've still got the same problem."
W- or have you indeed found that
if people go and sit on this mound,
their problems do actually go away?
Like talk to us a little bit around
the rational and the non-rational here
because I think this interplay between
magic and science is fascinating,
and it's exactly where we all sit-
Krisztina Molnar: I think the key
is in, in the understanding and the
understanding of psychological happenings.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: Because of course
it doesn't work in a magical way like
that, that you tell me a problem and
I say to you, "Okay, there's a mound
where you go and you sit and you scream
it out, and then it will disappear."
It doesn't work like that.
But youâ¦
O- or I can and I'm just thinking how to-
Mm ⦠how to describe it, how it happens.
Because I think the keyâ¦
one of the keys is the, the tuning of how
you can feel and how you can recognize
the psychological needs of the child,
for example, if it's, if it's child.
And there you really understand,
you resonate on what h- he or she is
missing or what the unfulfilled need is.
And on the basis of that psychological
need, you create a, a, an invitation which
is a situation where she has or he has
a choice to do it or not to do it, or do
it in a way like she does or, or what I
imagine, or d- do it in a different way.
And I just offer then for example,
last time you mentioned how
much you hate the nurse in your
kindergarten because she's speaking
too loud to you and too rude to you.
And you know, that must have
been, you must have been very
angry when it happens to you.
And probably you, mm, must have
feel- felt very ashamed by that.
But, you know, n- now you have another
kindergarten where this is not a
problem anymore, but you may think that
this can happen anytime to you again.
And would you like to go to a place
like that where there's an option to to
help Mother Nature or to ask the help of
Mother Nature to blew this away from you?
And it's like it's like any kind of
game or drawing or, you know, all
the subjects that kids are able to
to cope with their- inner conflict.
And this is how it happens.
I, I find something that maybe
can resonate with this magical
place, and I offer that.
Or other way round.
It also happened that for a family I
offered that I know a magical place
where people can let things go.
Mm, would they feel like to go there
and try to let things, some things go?
And we will see what they-
Let go and what family members want to
let what, and maybe the mother wants
to let something totally different
than go than the father or the child.
So it can also work the other way around.
It's, it always depends
on what's what's the goal.
If it's a diagnostic goal,
because then then I think the
second option works better.
For example, you can transform a
diagnostic task of three wishes.
That's diagnostic task or exercise.
You can turn it into a much natural way
into the fairy tales, where there's a
fairy forest, and where fairies live
on the top of the forest or, or, or on
the top of the trees, and you can wish.
And if you really need that thing,
they will find a way to have that.
And what are the wishes you
wish for from the fairies?
Or what do you think your mother
would wish for you from the fairies?
And then there's a diagnostic role.
And on the way along- How,
Rupert Isaacson: how does the
diagnostic role work with this?
Krisztina Molnar: That you have on, on
the basis of the wishes, you will find
psychological needs, what they wish.
If they wish for one more toy, then
you can translate or translate it
into a psychological language, which
means that you have a desire that your
dreams should be always fulfilled,
and you would really like to feel
that somebody hears your needs and
that they are going to be fulfilled.
That means that they want one
more toy car, for example.
But kids are amazing, and they
always wish for what they really
need and what we really need to hear
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting.
I, I was just on the phone having a
conversation with a pediatrician, a
doctor in the USA who works with a
child that I know very well, and hasâ¦
She hasâ¦
This doctor has supported
the equine therapy.
She has supported the nature-based stuff.
And yet, and she's gonna be on
this show, I'm gonna talk to her.
But it was really interesting.
In the US, and to maybe a
lesser extent in the UK,
someâ¦
If you get the practitioners, and the
doctors, and people like that talking
about ideas like magic, and three wishes,
and fairy tales, they won't do it because
they will feel professionally really
vulnerable that that's just too dangerous.
You know?
And even though they probably very much
want to talk in these terms, because this
is how humans are they sort of can't.
Yeah.
You are there you're a clinician.
You're working from a diagnostic
point of view in Hungary, and what
I'm hearing is that people are quite
comfortable with that language, yet
you also told me that in Hungary you
don't feel that people have a really
strong relationship with the forest.
But now you're telling me that they
do have a really strong relationship
with story and traditional
storytelling concepts like fairytales.
Do you think that that is
something specifically Hungarian?
That, because you're the first
person, I think, on this show
to tell me a story like that.
Usually I'm the one talking about
that sort of thing, and here
you are, you're the, you're the
psychotherapist, and you go, "Yeah,
Rupert, fairytales and three wishes
and there's a magic mound," and theâ¦
And I, I love it.
So y- yeah, is this something
specifically Hungarian, do you think?
Krisztina Molnar:
Actually, I have no idea.
I think it's specific to children
and not specific to Hungarian.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but
you talked about families.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You talked about-
Krisztina Molnar: yeah,
but of course in- ⦠it's
Rupert Isaacson: for
families as well and so
Krisztina Molnar: adults ⦠in,
in the fam- yeah, but you're right.
In a fam- in a family therapy,
Also always children, or most of
the time children are present.
Mm.
And there, there you also have to find a
way how to how to connect everyone in, in
a family me- member, through the family
members and the systems or, or, you know,
the smaller systems inside the family.
And of course you are also a model
in a family therapy how to connect
to a child, because many parents
are just can't think in terms what
they used to think in a childhood.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: And m- most of
them are very open to it, to that.
But I, I'm sure that not in
every family therapy and not in
every phase of the family therapy
would work with fairy tales.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless- But-
You're, you're there in Hungary- Number-
⦠in Central Europe, and fairy tales
are a big part of the culture, right?
All the Disney stories-
I think- ⦠come out of
Krisztina Molnar: Central Europe
⦠Rupert Isaacson: yes.
Yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, and actually
we have quite deep tradition in
traditional tales, which are, are very,
very famous and popular in Hungary.
So I think what you're saying has
something to do with the tradition
and Hungarian specific terms.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: But I think it
comes very, very deeply of, of,
of how, how is being a child.
Rupert Isaacson: We run a, a
neuroscience conference every two
years at medi- at a medical university
medical school in Virginia in the USA.
We justâ¦
It was just two weeks ago that we had it.
It'll be in n- the next two years.
I think on the next one, I want
you to come as a speaker, and
I want you to talk about this.
Oh, my God.
You'll be, you'll be- Okay ⦠you'll
be dragging a, a two-year-old too.
But- ⦠I think this is a really unlooked
f- y- this is a really overlooked area.
Look, when I wrote the Horse Boy book I
was talking about directly going to the
old lady in the forest, directly going
to the old man in the forest in parts of
the world where this is not just a story
that's partly forgotten, where it's still
very, very, very much a living tradition.
However, it still comes down to story.
You arrive with a dilemma, with a problem.
There's a quest.
You go on this quest, and you are looking
for an answer to this dilemma, and in
nature, usually deep nature with some
real challenges and some dangers you
eventually find your way to the wise
man or the wise woman, and they do what
they do and give you A s- connection
with the spirit world that you're
talking about, which is fairies and that
sort of thing, but for them it's very
real and tied up with real survival.
And then they bring you an answer,
and you implement their instructions.
And of course, when I wrote that book
and made that film, you can imagine
that there were 50% of people who
said, "Wow, that's amazing," and 50%
of people who said, "You're an idiot
because you are saying that shamanism
cures autism," or something like this.
And I say, "No, no, of
course I'm not saying that."
In fact, if you look in the book, you
will see that I say specifically that
I'm not saying that about 100 times.
But hey, okay, fine.
You think this.
I can understand why you think this,
because you're terrified that I might
make you go out into that big, bad forest.
Just like you said, there are some people
who are very afraid of this, because what
we're talking about is a loss of control.
And what I think you're touching on
is that when you are in a situation
where you have already lost control,
when you have an autistic child, when
you have a special needs child, when
you have a psychosis, when you have
depression, you are not in control.
You have lost control completely,
and this is very distressing And
so then of course you try to get
control, and it, it doesn't work.
In fact, it makes it worse.
And then you have to fall back on these
ancestral technologies, and of course
these traditional stories that you're
talking about in Hungary are technologies
for understanding the human condition.
And why then if they mean
nothing, if they're so stupid,
why is every Disney movie that?
Yeah.
You know?
And all of the early ones all came
out of those traditional central
European stories, the German ones,
the Czech ones, the Hungarian ones.
Yeah.
And then later they went
to other cultures as well.
But if there's nothing in it, then why
does it sit at the center of Hollywood?
Why does it stat at the center of
where people look for meaning in their
day-to-day lives, and that they will
consume this, they will pay money
for this in an entertainment setting?
You're now talking about bringing
it into the clinical setting,
which I think is 100% sane because
that is what they exist for.
But it's interesting that this is not
the norm, and I think if you were to
come and talk about this more at this
neuroscience conference, what would be
very interesting would be to look at,
well, what's the neuroscience of this?
What goes on in the human brain when you
put them in nature with a story like this?
Why do you see change when you do this?
There must be changes in the neurons.
There must be.
There must be m- more neural connections.
So could you speculate
a little bit on that?
You don't have to say, "Well,
Rupert, I don't know because,
you know, the science is out."
We're, we're not talking about
that kind of science here.
I think we're allowed to speculate
and observe that something is
working and then wonder, "Well, why?
Why might it be working?"
So what do you think?
Krisztina Molnar: An idea has come
across since you were talking, and
and when you were talking about that
you literally went after the wise man
and the wise woman in the forest, that
actually I think what's happening in
therapy is that each and every human
being has a wi- has a wise man or a wise
woman inside, which, you know, isâ¦
Schema therapy has a whole term of that,
that this is- Okay ⦠the wise mode.
And and the nature and the forest is an
excellent tool to connect to your wise
man and wise woman, or it seems to be.
And maybe that's that's an aspect
that probably that would be also
interesting to check out, that
probably, mm, this wise mode in, in
this term or, or this connection to the,
Rupert Isaacson: So
Krisztina Molnar: let's- The,
the, the, the natural wisdom-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Krisztina Molnar: can happen more easily.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, let's
talk about this a little bit more.
I'm making a couple of notes.
Mm-hmm.
All right.
This is really good.
You said schema therapy.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
That's a, a very, very big concept of on
the basis of the work of Jeffrey Young.
Rupert Isaacson: Jeffrey Young.
Krisztina Molnar: I think, y- yes.
And schema therapy is very, very
popular in Europe, also in Hungary.
That's, that's a psychotherapy- I've never
heard of it, so you need- ⦠setting.
Really?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: So can
you explain it, please?
Actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
As far, ⦠Yeah, it
was depe- first ⦠No.
Okay.
I'm getting a little bit confused now.
So, it, this kind of therapy was
developed on the basis of Beck's work.
Beck had a lot of
patients with depression.
That's why we also have the Beck Scale and
stuff like that for measuring depression.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: And he realized
that the, the therapy for
depression didn't always work
patients.
And with some patients who had not
only therapy but probably personality
disorder, they needed much more than
cognitive behavior therapy, which was
originally- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ⦠used
very widely for depression.
And then Jeffrey Young came, and
on the basis of what Beck found
in his work he started to create
a much wider, mm- concept of of
how, how we think about- Mm-hmm
the personality and how we
think about the therapy work.
And he assessed not only the cognitive
behavior methods, but also the work
with the, the attachments and with
the, the, the relationship be- with the
therapist and the in the, the client.
And he also created the
concept of schemas and,
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Krisztina Molnar: that according to
that s- that concept, then you have, ev-
everyone has schemas in, in the core of
their personality, which- Right ⦠are
built in from early childhood through
the experiences and can be formed also
by temperament and inherited stuff.
But we all have schemas w- m-
that can be very, very different,
and you can also have positive
and also negative schemas, too.
Okay.
But for example, mm, I'm just
thinking of one specific, that you
can have a schema of being deprived.
And then you, through your life, you
will come across with situations when
you feel deprived, and you somehow create
that situation around you, and that's
why you face many, many problems or, or
not problems, but, you know, difficult
circumstances through, through your life.
And okay, that's the very
easy way of schema therapy.
Right.
No, absolutely.
W- There's much more, much more
difficult than that, but that's-
Rupert Isaacson: While you're talking-
⦠somehow ⦠I'm, I'm, I'm looking on
my phone, you know, and looking it up.
Mm-hmm.
And so basically what you're
talking about, a schema is
a belief system really, and-
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, exactly
Rupert Isaacson: Where this comes out
of experiences early in your life.
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And some ofâ¦
And then they, these belief systems
result in coping strategies that
might or might not be helpful for you.
And schemas can be triggered, these
belief systems can be triggered.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly ⦠okay.
Okay.
And then you can even do some sort
of re-parenting therapy where-
Krisztina Molnar: yeah, of course.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: very important ⦠you
provide the safety and emotional
support the client maybe
missed out on during childhood.
Okay.
Okay, this makes sense.
So- I, I suppose if we're talking
about belief, then what is a fairy tale
other than a schema, other than a, a
belief system told through a story?
Because most fairy tales follow more or
less the same, the same pattern, right?
There- Mm-hmm ⦠there's usually
a, a, an, a hero or a heroine.
Sometimes both.
It could be two young children even.
Usually that person, the princess, the
mermaid, whoever, gets drawn into a story
that's dangerous, but they have no choice.
They have to, they have to go and deal
with it now, even if they don't want to.
And then it all goes wrong, and just
when the witch is about to eat them or
something- Mm ⦠they realize that they
can find some inner resource which might
have the personification of a fairy or
an animal or something, and they get
a gift, and this gift i- is a power.
And then when they go and face Darth
Vader again, you know, or Baba Yaga
or whoever, they use this power, and
this is what allows them to resolve the
conflict, whatever the conflict was.
And that's a fairy story,
basically, you know?
So it would make sense to me that you c-
have a fairy forest, and you take someone
in who has a belief system, a schema-
Mm ⦠and then you answer that with a
belief system that is traditional, that is
usually set in a place like this forest.
And I could see how also through
genetic memory, I could see how if
your ancestors spent a lot of time in
forests like this and a lot of time
hearing stories like this, that it could
spark a sort of a- a recognition and an
acceptance that would be really helpful.
I could see absolutely the psychological
process there, and I could also
understand why, let's say, if you're
walking through that forest or you're
riding through that forest, you will
undergo a neurological change because
your vestibular system is activated.
You have to engage in novel movement.
You have all this sensory information
coming in from the forest, which is
natural, and this is going to cause you
to create brain-derived neurotrophic
factor, BDNF, that protein- Mm-hmm
that leads to neuroplasticity.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And among those
neurons, there are going to be
Purkinje, Purkinje cells that
deal with social skills, so youâ¦
That's emotional intelligence.
And I could see how those allegorical
and physical things could come
together to create real change.
So now I'm gonna ask you a
really challenging question.
Are you ready for this one?
Krisztina Molnar: Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there
actual fairies in your forest?
Krisztina Molnar: What do you believe?
That's
Rupert Isaacson: my answer
What do you believe?
What do you believe, Christina?
Krisztina Molnar: Of course there are
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Krisztina Molnar: There are many,
there are so many proofs of that
Rupert Isaacson: So talk to me about
this because, you know, y- we've
talked a lot about the rational, right?
Yeah We know that you have, that
you're, y- you've got your degrees,
and we know that ⦠Yes, yes.
Okay.
Now talk to us about the irrational.
Why are there fairies
in your forest, and how
Krisztina Molnar: do
Rupert Isaacson: you know this?
Krisztina Molnar: Because if in, in a
fairy forest, there are always going
to be creatures that just like in the
tale, that are created somehow inside
you, and they come to life outside.
And if you are around with such b-
wonderful creatures like our horses
and with such wonderful people like
my team and with so many wonderful
happenings around and events around,
then what else can you have in
a forest like that than fairies?
Rupert Isaacson: Have you met one?
Krisztina Molnar: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you seen one?
Krisztina Molnar: No
Rupert Isaacson: Shall I tell
you an interesting story?
Yeah, please.
I went to do a retreat well, to h- to
lead a retreat with another person,
a lady called Emilie Keyes' daughter.
She's an extraordinary woman in Sweden and
she's been on this show, and she's one of
the most interesting people I've ever met.
And you know, you often hear people
say they're animal communicators,
and usually when people say that to
me I'm like, "Nah, no you're not.
Nah, you think you're an
animal communicator, but
nah, you're not an animalâ¦"
Why do I think that?
Because I've seen real animal
communication at work, particularly
with hunting and gathering people,
where they really do have to learn
how to communicate with wild animals
and, you know, in ways that if they
don't do it, they don't survive.
I don't disagree that in our modern
context there would be people
in our society with that talent.
Of course there are, but the v- it's, it's
a rare talent, so given how many thousands
of people in the equine-assisted world
talk about being animal communicators,
it's unlikely that so many would be.
However, she really is.
And not just not just animals, but
rocks, plants, and she talks about
these entities, these energies of
the plants, of the stones, of the
forest, of the animals that can project
themselves through the human imagination.
And if you are open to it, you
can have communication with them.
And over three or four days, we were
playing with these ideas in, in her way.
On the last night that I was there, I was
sleeping by myself in a hammock in the
forest near a rock face, and something
came out of the rock and looked at me and
then went back into the rock And it wa-
Krisztina Molnar: That's amazing
⦠Rupert Isaacson: very, you
know, it was unmistakable.
Mm-hmm.
And it- I'm also totally
comfortable with people saying,
"Rupert, you're full of shit."
That, it's, it's fine if
that's what you wanna think.
It's, it's ⦠I'm not
trying to convince anybody.
And I've seen stranger things
than that with the Bushmen.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it was
really interesting to be
in Europe with this person.
Mm-hmm.
And then if you think about
what Nikola Tesla said.
So Nikola Tesla, we would not be able
to be speaking over Zoom or using-
Mm ⦠cell phones or anything except
because of this man, Nikola Tesla.
We use all his technology
all the time, but they don't
teach us about him in school.
They teach us about different
physicists and different scientists.
They, they talk to us about
Alexander Graham Bell, and they talk
to us about some of his content.
All right.
But he said, "If you want to
understand the universe, you have
to think in terms of vibration,
frequency," and what's the third one?
Frequency, vibration, it'll come to me.
And we know now that this is true.
Like, I look at you and
you look pretty solid.
Look- Mm ⦠there's Christina.
Like, I can touch her.
There, she's there.
But you and I both know that you are
not that solid, that you are composed
of lots of molecules dancing around each
other- Mm ⦠like with a distance, and
most of you is actually empty space.
But this electrical charge, this
vibrational charge- creates matter
if it gets close enough together.
And we even observe this in matter
because we can observe liquids, which
are a little bit further apart, the
molecules, and we can observe gases
where they're really quite a lot fur-
and then there's a lot we can't observe.
So we know this is true.
And there is an interesting idea that
Tesla was playing with, but it's there
in shamanism and it, I think Einstein
played with this as well, which is
that if you project enough thought and
belief into that vibrational field, that
molecular electron quantum field, you
create a certain density of molecular
light really, which can then manifest
as a projection of your thought.
Perhaps that energy was already
there and now you just see it
through a lens that is cultural.
So we might see a fairy or-
Mm ⦠the thing that came out
of the rock, but someone else
might see it very differently.
But nonetheless, there it is.
And so when I asked you about are
there fairies in your forest, and you
said, "Of course there are," right?
I immediately thought, "Well, yeah,"
because if Christina puts enough
thought and enough Hungarian people
before Christina put enough thought
into this forest and this mythology of
nature spirits through this particular
cultural lens, and she now brings her
belief and focuses that vibration and
frequency, why would there not be?
You see where I'm going?
That it's still scientific in youâ¦
Or, or let's say you could look
at it through the lens of science.
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
Yes, that's a very interesting
aspect that I I haven't really been
thinking of, but it's worth thinking.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I, I'm
thinking too, if you're talking to a
child like this or, or, or an adult
and say, "Well, okay, this is what
Nikola Tesla thought," and clearly
he was a clever bastard, right?
You know?
Why wouldn't we play with this concept?
So why don't we talk about fairies?
So if, if we sit on this mound-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and we call
to those fairies for answer
to this dilemma- They will
Krisztina Molnar: probably come.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, of course.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, whenâ¦
You will see when you're here.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Take me there.
Let's, let's do it.
Yeah
you know, but you, you could, you could
say, "Well, I invite you, the client,
to start thinking about the world in
the same way that Nikola Tesla did."
Mm-hmm.
Because why not?
And does it matter if it's true?
But given that Nikola Tesla was a
clever dude and he wasn't trying
to make money, he was just playing
with energy frequency and vibration.
Energy frequency and vibration,
I knew I would think about.
And indeed, here we are using wireless
technology to talk to each other,
energy frequency and vibration.
Yeah.
So yeah, I want you to think about
this some more, and I want you to come
and talk about it at this neuroscience
conference because I, I'd like to
explore the neuroscience of this.
Krisztina Molnar: Okay,
that's very nice invitation.
Rupert Isaacson: And I didn't expect
the conversation- Yeah ⦠to go here.
You know, I, I-
Krisztina Molnar: No, me, me neither.
Yeah.
I, I'm sure that I didn't
expect to come up with that.
But this is how it works.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
You know, it, it- We, we both- Go
ahead ⦠feel safe enough to talk.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: Things like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel that
if people like us are not willing to
take these sorts of conceptual risks-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: then what's the point?
I mean, why don't we just go and
get jobs as accountants or dressage
trainers or, or something, you know?
If we're dealing with the interplay
of the human mind with nature, and
even if you're not in the forest,
you're still in nature, right?
I'm in a room right now,
but I'm breathing oxygen.
That's nature, you know?
Mm.
I'm sitting on a chair
that's made of wood.
That's nature.
Ifâ¦
But I'm talking to a microphone
that's made of metal.
That's nature.
And plastic, which is forests
from the dinosaur times.
It's still nature, just
not as nice as the forest.
But yet i- in a funny way I feel it's our
duty to have these conversations because
a- again, in therapy, have you ever met
a child who said, "Hey, Christina, Dr.
Christina, I really want some therapy."?
Fuck off.
No.
No kid ever said that, ever.
A- adults might say that.
A kid says, "I would like to go in
the fairy forest, please, Christina.
I would like to ride the horse
into the fairy forest and,
and play and talk to fairies.
Can I do that?"
And you'd be like, "Absolutely."
Or you could say, "No,
fairies do not exist."
Which is gonna get better mental health?
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, of course.
The first one
Rupert Isaacson: So let's talk
about fantasy then, because some
people will say, "Rupert, now
you're in the realm of fantasy."
But could that be exactly
where we need to be?
Because is that the realm of possibility?
Is that the quantum realm?
What do you think?
Krisztina Molnar: Let me think
I think fantasy is kind of
part of the healthy mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: But of course in
a way, or as long as it serves the
wholeness or, or, Or, you know, the
developmental of of the personality
or, or the wellbeing of the person.
And it's like, mm, it's like,
you know, just a tool that it can
serve very beneficial ways and
can serve the other way round.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
What is the difference for
you between fantasy, which
is using the imagination to-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: come up with
alternate possibilities, right?
We, we must do this or
nothing would ever happen.
We must imagine something.
But there's also delusion.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: How do weâ¦
A, what's the difference between
fantasy or imagination and delusion?
And if somebody is in delusion,
how do we bring them back to a
healthier use of imagination?
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Krisztina Molnar: I'm thinking how
to describe what I have inside.
But I think, The difference between
fantasy and illusion is, if it serves you
growing yourself and your relationship
with the world, I mean relationship
with people and relationship withâ¦
around yourself with other creatures.
If it helps you to function that
better, then this is fantasy.
And and of course, there's a
psychotic level of fantasy, which is
also delusion that not, that is not
connecting you to yourself, to your
true self, and to your true relations,
but cuts you from yourself- Mm
and from your real connections, then
this is not helpful Because that can
also be kind of coping of- Mm-hmm ⦠you
know, reaching out for fantasies
and living in a total fantasy world
that has nothing to do with reality,
and that's not gonna be helpful.
And there, there will be-
Sounds great, actually
Rupert Isaacson: with
Krisztina Molnar: the im- But yeah.
With the imagination.
If it's connecting, or if
it's- Yeah ⦠disconnecting.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
If it's connecting or
disconnecting, that's good.
Okay, and then I presume that if
fantasy and imagination is projected
through the lens of psychosis-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: then some
bad shit could go down, right?
People could think that their
mother is the devil and-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: they need to kill
their mother or something, and
this, we know that this happens.
That would seem to me fantasy and
imagination gone wrong through-
Mm ⦠a lens of psychosis.
And I could see in something like
borderline personality disorder- Mm ⦠a
milder version of that happening.
Okay, so if you identify, let's say
you have a client and you're taking
them into the fairy forest, which is
about the use of imagination and mind
and nature and you want to help that
person sort order, where is my fantasy
and imagination helping to connect
me, as you said, and where is it- Mm
disconnecting me?
How does the horse help in this?
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, that, that's
what exactly came up in my mind, because
probably resonating with why I lost it.
What, what's the core of the horse?
I think the horse and the
animal is kind of an anchor
that keeps you in the present-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
⦠Krisztina Molnar: and, and makes you
to connect to the present and you
know, in, in, in the very minute you
have to be aware of everything when
you are sitting on a horse or- Yeah
when you are leading the horse.
They are the anchor
Rupert Isaacson: That
was a really good answer.
That was a really good answer.
Like, that, that, that's
that's such a succinct answer.
Because I could see how you talked about
earlier when you bring certain people, a
small minority of vulnerable people into
the forest, and they react with fear.
Okay, maybe that gets better, but
certainly in that moment, maybe the
forest isn't where they want to be.
And you talked about your arena
being a transparent, so it's like
a safety bubble in the nature.
That was really good.
But somebody going in with a psychosis
or a delusion, I could see they could
look at the forest as just a sort of a
landscape, a background to their delusion.
Mm.
But it would be very hard- And
Krisztina Molnar: you never go
to the forest with them- Yeah
because it's not safe enough.
Right.
And and youâ¦
A- and if they are so disconnected of
reality and themselves, then it'sâ¦
that is the therapist's responsibility
to take care of them and not
deepening more their delusion.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But I do wonder if that-
Mm ⦠could get better.
Because, for example- Mm ⦠we
have a colleague that we work
with who I hope you will meet.
She's called Leanna Tank, and she
works in Michigan, and she works
with people who are deeply psychotic.
Mm-hmm ⦠they can't be
allowed back into society.
Many of them have done
really terrible things andâ¦
but under psychosis.
And she says getting them out into
nature actually works very well
to bring them into the present.
Like, literally-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what is that bug?
You know, what is that cloud system?
Is it going to rain?
You know, where is the wind coming from?
Is itâ¦
What's the weather t- you know.
But she would, I think, also agree with
you that if you do it with a horse,
the horse really is that anchor to the
present moment because there's something,
I think, in the human that says, "I am
with a really big animal right now, and
I need to pay attention in a way that I
don't normally need to pay attention."
Krisztina Molnar: And there are so
many stimulate coming out from the
horse- Mm-hmm ⦠that you need
to pay attention, as you said.
That it, it, it helps you to,
to keep you in the real moment
Rupert Isaacson: All right, so finally, we
know that you're also a dressage person.
Yeah.
Kind of.
And so am I.
In a different way maybe, but I am.
What, for you, is the helpful role of
that kind of approach and training with
horses, let's say that culture with
horses, to the work that you're doing?
Krisztina Molnar: Maybe I should I
should think of my concept of dressage,
which is somehow about harmony.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Krisztina Molnar: And, and
maintaining harmony somehow in, in a
changing circumstance, ch- changing
balance from second to second.
Mm.
And still maintaining harmony.
Mm.
Which needs I think, a wonderful pre-
presence from, from the horse and from the
rider too, and and constant rebalancing-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Krisztina Molnar: somehow.
And and I think that's, you know, when
it's not working like that, and most
of the time it's not working like that,
that's why we work so much to work like
that, that you feel the most balanced way,
the most harmonious way- Mm ⦠and most
harmonious cooperation with the horse in,
in, probably in a quiet, collective way.
Mm.
But you work a lot for that.
And through that road, there's a
huge chance for self-development.
That's my experience.
And, but probably that's an option
for me, but for someone else I don't
know, playing tennis can be the same,
or playing basketball, or running, or
playing football can mean the same.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm skeptical
actually that it would mean the same.
But I, but I'll tell you why.
I think that there is something special
about having to work with another animal
because it's not just you and your
nervous system and your brain trying to
figure out this balance or this skill.
It's you and this other
nervous system and brain.
There's a partnership, but the
partner does not understand you.
And then let's say dogs, you
have therapy dogs, right?
But we know that dogs see life,
and humans see li- Dogs see life a
little bit like humans, and humans
see life a little bit like dogs.
Dogs domesticated themselves
voluntarily with humans.
It's relatively easy for most
humans to get along with a dog.
There's a lot of similarities.
We're s- we're social predators
who strategize together and, yeah.
But horses-
aliens, man.
You know, we are the alien
monkeys, you know, and we come
down with our alien monkey ideas.
You know, first it's I'm gonna eat
you, and then it's, then that comes
to I'm gonna ride you, you know,
somewhere about 6,000 years ago and
the horse is like, "Well, okay."
And now every herbivore is
born completely wild, right?
You know, not like a puppy or a
kitten that's born in your house
that domesticates because the mother
and the father are domesticated.
The horse has to be
domesticated every time.
And then This monkey comes up with the
idea of getting on the back of this thing,
which was not designed for a monkey.
And now we're monkeys who we do everything
with our hands, and we do everything with
our eyes, and our balance is weird 'cause
we're heavy up here, and this thing is
like this, and we're gonna make that work.
Oh, and this thing is terrified
of us, or at least skeptical.
But it does work.
We make it work.
It's a miracle.
We somehow cross another magical barrier.
That is a fairy tale, I think.
Mm.
And it's a, it's a miracle that happens
every time you get on the horse.
And I liked what you said about the loss
of balance and the retrieval of balance,
that, you know, some people think of
riding as you must always be in balance.
We know that's not possible.
So we know that it's the loss and
retrieval that is the miracle,
that that's the ecstasy, that's
the that we can take this risk
together and be carried by this- Mm
⦠mythological being almost, the horse.
So yeah, I think that there's
something a bit more special,
you know, than playing tennis.
Not that I have anything
bad to say about tennis.
It'sâ¦
But if the, if the tennis racket and the
ball had their own minds, okay, maybe.
So-
Krisztina Molnar: There's an aspect.
There's, there's an aspect, let's say.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay, fair enough.
Yeah.
Especially if I'm playing tennis.
But okay.
So, but the, but the dressage, okay,
you, you talk about balance and the soft
collection, and I like that too because
what are we trying to do with emotional
regulation but collect ourselves?
We need sometimes to be able
to really wah, but then we need
to collect ourselves again.
'Cause if we spend all our time in brr,
well, the police would probably have
something to say about that, you know.
So your horses go through, your
therapy horses go through a c- a
certain amount of this training.
When you were first working in the
therapeutic environment with horses,
probably you were working with horses that
did not have so much of this training.
What difference do you
observe in the horses?
Krisztina Molnar: I'm not sure that
it, it actually, the difference
actually depends on, on the dressage
training or not in terms of my horses.
Go ahead.
Because my I know you have very, very
well-trained horses, and I do not have
the same training level with my ones.
But what comes to my mind is,
mm, the difference I can observe
is normally by on, on the basis
of the personality of a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: But the
truth is the main training-
Any kind of training you, you
use or you put into your horse or
you work on with your horse the
more situations they can handle
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: That's for sure.
Mm-hmm.
And it, it can be dressage too, but it
can also be groundwork, or and it can
also be natural horsemanship exercises-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
Krisztina Molnar: uh, and
or, or, or anything else, or-
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would argue that
those exercises- It's just- ⦠are
actually a form of dressage.
They are just- Mm-hmm ⦠the
beginning forms of dressage.
Mm-hmm.
But I think natural horsemanship
and groundwork, they are dressage.
Yeah ⦠just not at the higher
level, but they're still- Yeah,
Krisztina Molnar: you're right
Rupert Isaacson: more or less
doing the same thing, yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah, you're right.
So actually, mm- Actually, I cannot
experience at my level of, of dressage
knowledge of my horses a difference on the
basis of how trained they are in dressage.
But truth to be told, that we, i-
in the therapies, most of the time,
we only use walk as a placement.
Mm-hmm.
So, there you don't really have
difference some- somehow in collection
and so on, and there's only very
few therapies in our therapy qutine-
thera- therapeutic routine right now-
Mm ⦠where we use canter, for example.
That's very rare.
Mm.
But for that, I would much more likely
to choose a better dressage horse- Mm-hmm
who can canter very correctly collected,
collected canter- Mm ⦠she has.
And I can be 100% sure that
the child can sit safe-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Krisztina Molnar: on the top.
That's true.
But we, most of the time, we use the walk.
Because when you go out to the forest,
normally we in, in, in our tradition or
in our concepts- Mm ⦠so far it worked
mostly the same, that you lead the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Krisztina Molnar: With
Rupert Isaacson: the kid.
I'd be interested to see as
you, as you delve into it if you
begin to notice some differences.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you can, you can
train, for example, a very collected
slow trot into most horses, right?
Mm.
And then if you- Yes, yeah ⦠instead
of being in front of the horse
or at the head of the horse-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: while you,
you would just go back a little
bit, you're at the shoulder.
And you can create underneath the
rider a lot of oxytocin, for example.
And that's a communication hormone.
We also know it's going to
soothe the nervous system.
But equally, when a horse is moving
in that way, they're going to develop
muscle in a way that they might not if
they're just walking on the shoulders.
The, there's also, there's another type
of walk, which is really fun to explore,
and of course, that's the piaffe.
Yeah ⦠even though
people argue, is it a trot?
Is it a walk?
Let's go with Nuno Oliveira,
who says it's a type of walk.
I have a feeling that I know the
training that you're doing right
now because we're working together.
I, I have a feeling that you're going
to find within a year or so that your
horses are doing this, and then I'll be
interested to see what you come back with.
Because there's nothing wrong
with just working at the walk.
Working at the walk
still gets you so much.
It's just that, hey, why not be curious?
But I think what you said about emotional
regulation is really true, that the
horses need to go through, if you like,
personal development, self-development-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in the
same way that humans do.
Particularly if they're going
to be working with people who
need that the horse needs to
be going through that as well.
And I know for a fact that you
are doing that, so I'm really
looking forward to seeing it.
So we are sort of approaching
the two-hour mark here.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I think I would
like to have you back on the show.
Oh
Krisztina Molnar: my God.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'd like to
go a little bit deeper into this
neuroscience of imagination, which-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: I loved that.
And I want to develop this
more in my programs, I think.
So before we close- Mm-hmm
⦠could you tell us a story
Tell us a story of a fairy
tale from your forest.
Tell us a story of an encounter,
imaginary or not, with
forest and story-
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that we can take away
as listeners from this conversation?
Krisztina Molnar: Do you mean kind
of technique or therapy sessions that
Rupert Isaacson: can work?
I think the, the technique will come
out through the story, and I think the
therapy session is probably the context.
Mm-hmm.
But the story is the story.
Krisztina Molnar: Mm-hmm.
Let me think.
Because normally I don't really
tell anything about how the
fairies come, came to the forest.
They have always been around.
That's not a question.
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed
⦠Krisztina Molnar: and,
Rupert Isaacson: But the story is
one of your encounters with this
Frequency vibration and energy
Krisztina Molnar: I think I've
already told you the story.
That's when I
I have always loved the forest.
And when you love the forest,
then probably you can find
fairies anywhere, in any forest
And when I had the desire to, to have
a life before the foundation, to have
a life like what I I can live now
together with my horses very, very
close to nature and to my natural self,
then m- then I asked in every forest,
every fairy to have an option for that.
And then finally as, as in the fairy
tales and as in the therapies I teach,
when you actually really need something
from the fairies, then they will give
you, but they ha- you have to ask for
it because they cannot read your mind.
So first of all, you have to somehow ask
for their help, and I asked their help.
And then finally I found myself
living in a forest surrounded by
fairies and surrounded by horses that
I have never imagined to have, and
and wonderful colleagues like Naroon
or you or my Hungarian colleagues
that I have never imagined to work
with and options and chances I have
never imagined to be able to serve.
And I think that's my fairy tale,
which is kind of real-life fairy tale.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Krisztina Molnar: So I can't say
anything more magical than that.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
That's beautiful.
I think we'll leave it there.
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And I really
look forward to seeing you in
that forest in a few weeks.
Krisztina Molnar: I really hope so.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm, I'm very much looking forward to it.
Yeah.
Okay.
People might want to contact you
and ask you more about your work.
How can they find you?
Krisztina Molnar: Okay.
We have a website that you, you
actually have, or Ileana has it.
So they can find my email address
or phone number on, on our website
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us
the name of the website, please?
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Is it easier to put it down?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, we will
have it in- Because- We will
have it in the show notes anyway.
But is, is it- Yeah ⦠a very
difficult Hungarian name- ⦠or is it?
Krisztina Molnar: It's, No.
I, I have no idea if it's
difficult for non-Hungarians.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's
Krisztina Molnar: give it a
Rupert Isaacson: try.
But
Krisztina Molnar: it's Electra Value.
It's Electra Value
Debrecen dot com, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you go
a little more slowly, please?
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Wait, I have to double-check
it because actually I don't
know exactly the website name.
Okay.
That's for sure, Electra Value Debrecen.
Debrecen is the place
where we are located.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Krisztina Molnar: Let meâ¦
Yes.
It's www.eletrevalodedbretem.com
Rupert Isaacson: Can you
just spell that slowly-
Krisztina Molnar: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: please?
Krisztina Molnar: Eletrevalo, that's
E-L-E-T-R-E-V-A-L-O-D-E
Rupert Isaacson: E
Krisztina Molnar: B
Rupert Isaacson: B
Krisztina Molnar: Yes.
B-R-E-C-E-N.com
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Elektravalo Balod.
Elektravalo-
Krisztina Molnar: Yes, so far so
Rupert Isaacson: good ⦠Balod-
balodbretsen.com.
Krisztina Molnar: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Kinda?
Or sort
Krisztina Molnar: of ⦠but
I think, I think so.
I'm not sure.
All right.
But, uh
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Krisztina Molnar: I tell you
what- I, I, I'll also send to you
⦠Rupert Isaacson: we will have it in theâ¦
Yeah, send it to me, and we'llâ¦
or 'cause we'll have it in the show notes.
But, but listeners and viewers, as
you can see Christina speaks very
good English, and I correspond
with her a lot by text and email.
So if you getâ¦
If you send her an email on that,
she will respond to you inâ¦
or she will get her fairies to
respond to you at any rate, in, in a-
Yeah ⦠in English that is very clear.
And I think a lot of people will want to
know how to talk to you about what you do.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna read it out again.
www.E-L-E-T-R-E-V-A-L-O-D-E-B-R-E-C-E-N.com.
Elektrevalodebrecen.com.
Krisztina Molnar: Ah, that was perfect.
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, shoot her
an email there and find out more.
All right, my friend.
Krisztina Molnar: Thank you very much
for your fam- for your friendship and
for your time and for your conversation.
That was
Rupert Isaacson: very exciting.
Krisztina Molnar: Likewise.
Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.
It was, it was a brilliant conversation.
I'm going to go off and talk to fairies.
All right.
I will see you-
Krisztina Molnar: Bye
⦠Rupert Isaacson: soon
in that forest.
Bye.
Bye bye.
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