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In this podcast, I am going to spill the beans about my semester abroad at North Carolina State University in Raleigh. That's going to include traveling tips, college gossip, cool events in Raleigh or nearby, day-to-day college life, restaurant tips and everything else I feel like talking about :) Be prepared to be entertained! This podcast is produced in collaboration with NC State student radio WKNC 88.1 FM HD-1/HD-2.
Rebecca Schaden 0:09
Hello guys, and welcome to my podcast Beccy On Tour about my semester abroad in Raleigh, North Carolina in the United States. My name is Beccy, and I'm your reliable source into the exciting world of American college life. So if that sounds like something you'd be interested in, stay tuned.
Today, we have a guest Tyler Dukes, investigative reporter at 'The News and Observer'. And he's going to tell you guys a little bit about his job as a journalist, how he started off his career in the media industry and the positive or negative aspects of his job. Thank you, Tyler for being here with me today. Could you please introduce yourself stating your name, your pronouns and your dream job growing up?
Tyler Dukes 1:22
Sure. Tyler Dukes, I'm an investigative reporter at 'The News and Observer' in Raleigh, North Carolina. Pronouns, he/him his. And my dream job. Actually, when I was very little, I actually wanted to be a marine biologist, so not a journalist.
Rebecca Schaden 1:37
That is so funny, because honestly, my last guest, he told me that he wanted to be a physician, like a doctor. So it's so funny how plans just change, you know?
Tyler Dukes 1:47
They do indeed, and, and even when I went to NC State to study, I actually wanted to be an engineer. So journalism was very far from my mind at the time.
Rebecca Schaden 1:58
So how did it happen that you started off in journalism?
Tyler Dukes 2:02
Well, one of my first days at NC State, actually, I was walking around what at the time, I guess was an orientation fair, I don't know what that looks like now, many years later. But there were a couple of people standing in front of this booth, talking about and recruiting for the Technician, NC-State's student newspaper. And for some reason, it just seemed kind of interesting to me. I wanted to be an engineer, but I also knew that I liked writing. And I, it kind of occurred to me that one way to make people understand that I was good at communicating as an engineer was to maybe write for a newspaper. And so I went to talk to them, the two editors who were running the paper at the time, and joined the news team, basically right after that conversation. And so a couple of weeks, I actually published my first story for the technician 20 years ago, actually, in October of 2003. And then it was sort of over for me at that point. I mean, I probably didn't quite know it yet. But it was a pretty sort of life altering experience, to have your name in print, to be able to talk to people and to synthesize a bunch of facts and information and put it out to the world.
Rebecca Schaden 3:27
Did you actually change your major from engineering to English or journalism?
Tyler Dukes 3:34
I did change my major. Eventually. What I actually ended up graduating was Science, Technology and Society, which I believe still exists here. But it's, you know, very interdisciplinary. So it was sort of an attempt to actually make a lot of my engineering credits count, so I can actually graduate. But you know, what, in effect I was able to do in the last couple of years of my time here is study a lot more science writing and things like that. So I was really trying to sort of parlay some of the technical and science based and, you know, sort of engineering and math that I had studied for the last like three years or so into something that I could use, hopefully, and journalism. And so it was, it was sort of a weird fit, but it ended up working.
Rebecca Schaden 4:26
So did you end up working at a magazine like a business magazine or like, engineering magazine later on?
Tyler Dukes 4:34
I didn't, but actually, my first job out of college was working as what in effect was a copy editor for 'Spectrum news', which at the time was 'News 14, Carolina'. So I was a online producer effectively. And so I did a lot of rewriting of scripts for TV. And in fact, you know, so it was sort of weird because working for television and broadcast television was not really what I, you know, thought I was going to be doing. But, you know, 2008 was sort of not the best time to be looking for jobs, we were sort of in the middle of a recession. And this opportunity came up and you know, actually learned a lot from it, I did end up eventually doing a good bit of freelancing in the science space. And so writing, you know, I actually freelanced for 'The News and Observer' for several years, writing science stories for them, also wrote for, you know, blogs and things like that. So I was sort of taking work where I could find it. And so, you know, I was trying to use some of that. But really, the technical skills that I sort of learned here, didn't really start coming back, full circle until I started to do more work in the data journalism space. And, you know, of course, by that time, I'd forgotten most of the, you know, programming and things like that I learned here. But, you know, I like to think that still some of the ways that this university sort of train my brain to think. Hopefully, I was able to use in some of the other types of work that I do now.
Rebecca Schaden 6:11
And would you say that it's difficult to find jobs as a journalist, as a freelancer?
Tyler Dukes 6:16
I think it's a lot better now than it was in 2008. I mean, you know, I think we, obviously, there have been, the media landscape is much smaller in a lot of ways. You know, whether you're at a newspaper or a TV station, or even some online publications, you know, we don't have the size staff that we might maybe had in the 90s. And so that doesn't mean fewer jobs. But I also think that, you know, we still do see media organizations hiring. And it's true of 'The News and Observer', it's true of some of my, you know, TV colleagues and radio colleagues, I think there's still a lot of opportunities out there for people who want to do this kind of work, whether, you know, they want to be in front of the camera, or behind the camera, or, you know, you know, shooting photos or, you know, whatever the case may be. So, yeah, I mean, and, you know, I think in general, there is also a real hunger for, for writing out there. And that's not necessarily just in the sort of traditional media landscape, I think there are a lot more jobs out there that require people to, again, like have the same basic skills, to be able to tell stories or tell other people's stories and to, again, synthesize information. So there's still a lot of opportunity out there, I think.
Rebecca Schaden 7:42
That is good to hear, especially for an international student who is looking for jobs in the broadcasting industry, because that is actually my next question. What do you think are the differences between broadcasting and writing stories? What did you observe in that regard?
Tyler Dukes 7:56
Yeah, so there's definitely some some differences. I mean, and I think in some ways, some of those lines are blurring a bit, because I think most even most broadcast TV stations have a huge online presence. And I knew, you know, a lot of the people who might be listening to this podcast might also look at wral.com Even if they're not necessarily reading, or watching, you know, Channel Five at 5:30 every day, and probably reading a lot of hopefully, newsandobserver.com or newsobserver.com. And maybe not picking up the printed paper every day.
Rebecca Schaden 8:28
Definitely.
Tyler Dukes 8:30
Absolutely. I hope so. But, you know, I think I think there are some differences that really come down to the strengths and weaknesses of each of these media. I mean, if you think about, you know, television and broadcast, and this is true, even of radio, I mean, the, the power in that medium, is being able to see and hear from people directly. Right. And so it can often be, those stories can often be strongest when they're, you know, emotional, and when the stories are very personal in some cases. I think with, you know, the written word, and, you know, some of the more traditional newspaper stories, I think we we have to go about things a little bit differently, because it just doesn't read the same when you're hearing from somebody by reading their quote in print versus hearing them say it. And so, you know, I think, you know, each of those broadcasts versus you know, sort of traditional newspapers and they have strengths and weaknesses. But I think one of the things that has been interesting to watch is how these places are sort of converging. So you're seeing newspapers do more with video and multimedia and interactive, you're seeing broadcast do more with long form writing, even experimenting with audio, podcasting, for example. And so, you know, we're seeing I think more decisions made about when we have stories that can be told in different ways. What are the best ways to tell those stories? What are the best ways to help people engage with some of these important issues or fun issues or whatever the case may be? That that they're interested in in need about their communities?
Rebecca Schaden 10:21
And what do you personally think? What do you prefer? More news-like stories or more emotional stories?
Tyler Dukes 10:28
You know, I'm definitely more of a sort of long-form writing person. That's partly because I also enjoy creating that kind of work. I'm generally not watching the five o'clock news on most days. And that was true even when I worked for WRAL I think, you know, they do some really fantastic work. But, you know, generally, I like to sort of have a little bit more control over what I'm reading and how fast I'm moving through the story so that I can really sort of comprehend it. And so, you know, that, that often means that, you know, it takes some more time. Because I think one of the strengths of being able to watch a broadcast is you get this, like, 30 minutes of news, right? And then you're done. Instead of sort of sitting on a newspaper all day, or sort of browsing through a website. But I do think it allows, at least for me, to engage with the, the message a little bit more like what is what is actually going on here. And there's a lot of times a little bit more depth to the written stories that we see. Because they have in we have space to tell that depth to tell that nuance. And so I do sort of prefer that.
Rebecca Schaden 11:46
So what exactly does an investigative journalists do?
Tyler Dukes 11:50
Yeah, that's a great question. So I mean, you know, we do what pretty much every journalist does, right. It's just there are some differences in terms of the kinds of things that we take on as projects. And, and sometimes it can come down to just the time we have to work on things. You know, a lot of my colleagues at 'The News and Observer' and certainly, you know, my former colleagues at places like WRAL and other TV stations, you know, their their mandate is to really say, what's going on today? Or what's going on in some cases, maybe tomorrow? And that, doing that job well requires speed. Right. You know, it doesn't help somebody to know about something that happened three months ago, right, if if you know, the legislature's voting on it, or the City Council is voting on it, or the elections happening today, right? You kind of need to know, I think the the stories that my team focuses on and that other investigative reporters across the country really focus on are oftentimes stories that if we weren't doing the digging, may not come to light. And so we would typically call those sort of enterprise stories. So these are stories that aren't sort of as reactive, as we might see from sort of news of the day. And so what we what we need, I think, in most news organizations is a balance between those things. Like we still need what is happening today, and we still need to alert people about what's happening tomorrow. But we also need in most cases, I think, you know, folks who are going to dive deep into some really nuanced and complicated issues, and in some cases, issues that, you know, you might not know a whole lot about and might not know enough to talk about if you were just sort of going on with your daily life. And so, you know, that also often means pointing out some pretty deep and terrible things about the way our society works, and how power is abused and misused. And who is victimized by that. And so I think that's, that's kind of our, our sort of 10,000 foot view. And obviously, it gets a lot more specific than that, but that's really where we try to, to focus. Our sort of internal mission statement is to, you know, find ways to interrogate systems of power. And, you know, that's, that sounds a little bit high minded, I think, in some ways, but, you know, for, for practical purposes, that means, you know, really trying to be a watchdog. And, you know, examine, you know, the folks at the local state, in some cases national level that are setting policies that affect people and trying to figure out whether those policies are appropriate or harmful, or if they're even working as intended.
Rebecca Schaden 14:53
Can you maybe give my audience an example of a story that you covered recently?
Tyler Dukes 14:58
Sure. So I mean, one One of the big things that we took a look at last year actually is the rise of corporate landlords in North Carolina and across the country. So many of your listeners may, at some point in their lives be very interested in owning a home. In the United States, it's one of the very few ways that most of us will ever sort of establish any sort of wealth. That's kind of how the society we have built for better or worse. But what we have seen in the last 10 years since the rebuilding of the Great Recession, is a new class of companies that have come in to purchase single family homes, often the kinds of single family homes that you might buy, if you were getting out of college, getting your first job starting your career and sort of building sort of your larger, you know, some of your life goals, right. And not everybody, you know, buys a house, not everybody wants to buy a house. But basically what we have seen in a lot of particularly popular urban areas, places like Charlotte, Raleigh, outside of North Carolina, Atlanta, Phoenix, other places, these companies come in, and with a massive amount of Wall Street backing, buy up homes over asking price, all cash. And it can be very, very difficult for normal buyers like you and me, who probably have to go to a bank and borrow some money and you know, have to worry about, you know, losing money potentially, to compete. And so we spent a good bit of time trying to unravel the growth of these companies and their impact on our communities, and really, for the first time, due to the complicated way they conduct business actually count just how large their influence has become in North Carolina. So that's one example. We've looked very closely at rising rates of maternal mortality and pregnancy related deaths in North Carolina and across the state and what, what policymakers are trying to do to stop that trend. And more recently, we've looked at a pretty massive transition with the the state's court system to this new, modernized digital court case management system that some allege is actually landing people wrongfully in jail. And, and so, you know, again, we sort of are all over the map in terms of the types of things that we look at. But all of these these things have, have a one thing in common, which is that they're really, we're looking at, you know, organizations and companies and industries, and, and even in some cases, state actors that, you know, are having some pretty profound impacts on, you know, people's day to day lives.
Rebecca Schaden 17:57
So you're basically the voice of the society, and you're helping us with our issues that we cannot speak up for, ourselves. Is that right?
Tyler Dukes 18:05
Well, you know, I think it's an interesting way to put it, you know, I, because there was, you know, for a long time, this idea that journalism, has the potential to give voice to the voiceless. And I'm not sure I am 100%, on board with that description sometimes, because, you know, this is a conversation that has been sort of ongoing in the industry, especially when we spend so much time talking to people who have been victimized. You know, this idea of us being the ones to give them a voice sometimes feels a little icky, because it feels like we're sort of robbing people of their agency. And so, you know, I think, I think I'm not 100% sold on on that as like a description of the job we do. I think it's certainly part of it, we certainly try to amplify people's voices when they feel like they have been mistreated. And, you know, we try to act in that role. But I think more and more, one of the things that we're also thinking about is like, how to make sure that the work that we're doing here is not being exploitative. And so we're, we're, I think, especially in this kind of work, specifically, we're really trying to sort of grapple with that, like, how do we, how do we work with our sources? And you know, the people we're talking about, especially people who aren't used to working with talking to reporters or being quoted or being in the newspaper, you know, how do we talk to those folks and make sure they understand what they're getting into? And they talk to us, right? I mean, I think that's a big part. That's been a big part of the conversation about how we protect people, especially people who are particularly vulnerable.
Rebecca Schaden 19:57
Yeah, I believe that the reason why some people might be reluctant to talk to reporters is because they kind of have an image of sometimes being unethical. Did you have like any experiences with that?
Tyler Dukes 20:09
Yeah, I mean, you know, every interaction I have with somebody is, you know, I'm, I'm sort of representing my entire industry, right? Because it only takes one bad experience with a reporter. I mean, because most people will never talk to a reporter, like, just just, they'll go through their lives, and they probably have never interacted with a reporter before. And if you think about it, like the fact that we have fewer and fewer people covering our communities, that's even more true over time. Right? You know, the newsrooms ever used to have hundreds of people working in the in the staff, now we have close to 50, you know, there's, you're a lot less likely now to run into a 'News and Observer' reporter on the street than you were in the 90s. And that's true of of every newspaper and every TV station. But, you know, yeah, if you, if you mistreat a person, if somebody has a bad experience, if even if you misspell their name and print, right, I mean, it can really sour people on their experience. And people are smart and savvy, and they watch you and they pay attention, and they want to be treated fairly. And so you know, whether it's, you know, a very quick conversation you're having on the street with somebody who's protesting, or, or you're spending months with a person to get a sense of what's happened in their lives. You know, I think, you know, there's a real desire to make sure people, you know, understand what it is we do. And, you know, even if, you know, it's a confrontational experience, in some cases, gonna, not everybody wants to talk to us, you know? Because they might be, you know, under scrutiny. Right? You know, but the goal is to make sure everybody at least, feels like they're treated fairly, even if they're not necessarily happy with being the subject of coverage. But yeah, I mean, I've definitely had conversations with people who have had interactions with reporters in the past, and they've not been happy with those interactions. Sometimes that means that that conversation is shut down, right forever. And it's something that you kind of just have to roll with, of course, like, no one's under any obligation to speak with us. Right. And that's especially true with people who don't seek the the public eye, I think you could argue that public officials, you know, in their capacity, may have more of an obligation to speak with reporters, right? Even though that's not a legal obligation, that may be like a moral obligation. But you know, if you're just a person on the street, you absolutely have no obligation to speak to us. And so, you know, I think it is, you know, acting ethically in this work is not only sort of important for the day to day of the work we do, but also for building trust in the community, because I think, by and large, there are a lot of people who mistrust journalists, they mistrust the newspaper, the TV station, CNN, or Fox or whatever. And, you know, not all of those reasons are totally unfounded, right. And so, you know, I think, you know, we, we have to be honest with ourselves and as an industry about that, like, we've done a poor job, sort of building that trust over time. And I'm speaking of this generally. But, you know, I'm also a single reporter, and it's hard for me to fix the problems of the entire industry. But that absolutely is a conversation that we have all the time about, you know, how do we build trust, especially when we are local reporters, like, I'm a North Carolina native, I was born in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, I went to a public university, I went to public school, like I am a I'm a product of this state. And, and I, that really matters to me, because when I report on the state when I report on my home, I'm doing it because I, I love it. Right. And I love it, I want this state to be great. And so, you know, that's a that's a thing that I think is also very important is that like, especially for local reporters, we are part of this community that we are reporting on. And so we are, we are also part of the public we serve. And so that's another thing that we we try to make very clear. It's like we we want people to see us as also members of the community. And that's hard sometimes because we're you know, behind the byline or you know, behind the anchor desk or whatever, but you know, it's very true.
Rebecca Schaden 25:05
That is a very, very beautiful way to put it. And I believe that if that is your motivation for journalism, I think you're doing a great job. Because I think there are a lot of journalists out there who have different kinds of motivation.
Tyler Dukes 25:17
I think that may be true. Yeah, and, you know, the Yes. And, and I think there are different lots of different reasons to do this work. I mean, some people, some people really love, you know, being on TV or just seeing their names in print. And that's not necessarily bad in itself. I mean, I don't want to be dismissive of that. But, you know, I do think by and large, the people that do this work, which is not terribly easy work, it's not terribly, it's not work that makes you terribly popular. And it's also it's, it's a lot easier to do it bad than it is to do it well, like, it's, it's difficult. And it's also very easy to make honest mistakes. Because, you know, a lot of times that it is said that journalism is the, you know, the first draft of history, right? Well, you know, we're, especially when we're talking about things as they're happening, we don't always have a full account of what's going on. But we need to say what we know. And sometimes also what we don't know, in order to sort of help people understand, but you know, sometimes that that accuracy can be a bit of a moving target. Because, you know, especially as events unfold, and things we're covering unfold, we're learning new things all the time, and we're trying to, we're trying to be as transparent about that as we can.
Rebecca Schaden 26:55
Yeah and you kind of touched on the challenges of the industry. What are your challenges that you have had during this job?
Tyler Dukes 27:02
You know, I think one of the things that can be tough, especially in the investigative context, and this is probably true of a lot of a lot of reporters, depending on what they cover is that, you know, we cover a lot of times, people's lives, when things are not going well, right. It's a, it's a lot of trauma, it can be, you know, in some cases, the worst days of people's lives that we're talking to, or we're asking them again and again to recount terrible experiences, for the purposes of making sure we're getting it, right. Right. And that can be, you know, challenging, I think sometimes. And, you know, both not just for us, but also for our sources. And so, you know, I think that's, that can be a part of the job, that's not terribly fun, but is also really, really important. And so, you know, trying to make sure you're sort of balancing the, the impacts of that I think, are really important. I think also, too, you know, one of the one of the things we want, there's like the classic dismissive way to say, of a, of a newspaper, or you know, or you're just trying to sell papers, or, you know, you're just you're just trying to get clicks. So the other thing is, I think we we want to make sure that our stories are resonating with people. And I think that's a, that's a thing that has changed very drastically in the the media landscape versus several decades ago, when, you know, if you had something come out in the newspaper, or the five o'clock news, you had a lot more people watching and listening and reading. Because the saturation was much higher. You know, everybody or a lot more people got the newspaper, a lot more people sat down to watch the news. And so, you know, one of the things we also want to make sure we do is when we write stories, we get them out to people, and then people understand that the stories we're writing are important, and they should read them, convince them, they should read them, and also meet them where they are. And so, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, not just how to write clickbait, but how to get people to click on things because if we're reporting on it, we think it's important we think we you should read it, right? We think we think you should buy the paper or watch the news or listen to the broadcast or whatever. And so we, but we also want to make sure that we're being very honest with people about out, you know what they're getting when we're telling them in the headline or in the, you know, in the tweet, or whatever, the x or whatever it's supposed to be called now, or the Facebook posts like, when you when you come to us for this information, it's going to be worth your time. And that's sort of a constant thing that we're trying to make sure we're doing because we want our stuff to be read. And the only reason and way it's going to actually make an impact is if our audience sees the value in it engages with it, reads it, watches it, and sort of acts accordingly.
Rebecca Schaden 30:34
Thank you. And we've talked a lot about the challenges of this job, but you are doing it because you love it. So what would you say is a positive thing of the job or something you're proud of?
Tyler Dukes 30:44
Yeah. Which is good, because it's important to remember those things, too. I mean, you know, I think one of the things that I find really rewarding is being able to put something new out into the world. And I think the sort of work that we do that is most valuable to me, is the stuff that, you know, we spent a lot of time on and, you know, I was ripping my hair out, or, you know, I was really stressed out about, but you know, we got it right. And we've made it clear. And we put it out there in a way that no one else did. And so it either added to our audience's knowledge about the way things worked, or, you know, points out a new problem that, you know, state lawmakers were local leaders might want to consider solving. And so those types of impacts, I think, is what we're really looking for. And I also, you know, especially from people who have chosen to tell their stories to us chosen to come to us or share their stories. Quite frankly, hearing those folks tell us that they think we gave them a fair shake, that we treated them fairly. That's also very rewarding. I, you know, especially for people who are in particularly vulnerable situations, I want them ultimately to, to hopefully, be glad that they brought their stories to us that that was ultimately a good thing that it was hard, and probably painful to revisit some of these things, but ultimately, it was something good. That's something good came out, they shared their story, they wrote they raised awareness for some issue, or made other people feel more empowered to tell their own stories, right. And so we do hear that from the sources that we talked to, and we you know, we often that's another form of impact that's much smaller. But it's something we also do not take for granted.
Rebecca Schaden 32:48
Yeah, and I don't know if you know that, but we have a mental health journey on Technician in the opinion section. And I believe that is very rewarding, just knowing that somebody reads your story and reads your mental health journey, and that it might help them improve their own lives.
Tyler Dukes 33:02
That's great. That's great. Yeah, because I think that's a that's absolutely under, under utilized, and under, I guess, thought through, you know, issues, you know, making sure that people are taking care of themselves, you know, mentally and physically.
Rebecca Schaden 33:20
Very true. And the last question, actually, what advice would you give someone who wants to start off a career in journalism.
Tyler Dukes 33:27
I would say not to wait for anybody to give you permission. You know, I think, you know, especially as things stand right now, there's so many ways for you to practice doing journalism, even if you don't even consider yourself a journalist, right? You can go to a city council meeting and understand what's happening. And you know, you know, learn how to write that up in a way that's going to engage people on whatever platform you want to use, right? You don't have to wait for a newspaper to give you a job or a radio station to give you a job. Because the fact is that, like, if you go out there and write a story, you're still competing with me, right? I mean, you can go and, you know, publish something in a newsletter, or substack, or a Facebook post or, you know, a Twitter thread. And, you know, people may respond to it in similar ways that we might have seen them respond to, you know, classic newspaper stories or classic broadcast stories. And I think audiences in particular respond when you take them to places that they either want to be or feel like they need to be. Right. So not everybody can make the city council meeting, or the tuition and fees meeting on campus or whatever the case may be. But there's information that's coming out of being in that place that they might need to know or want to know. And so, you know, there are opportunities like that to practice doing this kind of work and serving your community in some way or another or serving some online community, even if it's a if it's a niche subject that, you know, maybe it's not city council or tuition and fees. But, you know, there's all kinds of ways to do this kind of work in a way that you can find an audience and speak to them. And so, you know, don't wait to do it.
Rebecca Schaden 35:32
And the news and observer actually has internship opportunities in summer, right?
Tyler Dukes 35:37
We do indeed. Yeah, we are. We're actually looking to start that intern selection process right now.
Rebecca Schaden 35:45
So to all of you guys who want to start a career in journalism apply! Thank you so much, Tyler, for sharing your experiences as a journalist with my audience. I think it's a very, very interesting job with so many different layers. So you definitely will never get bored as a journalist guys. Thank you, Tyler for being here. It was great talking to you.
Tyler Dukes 36:07
Thank you for having me.
Rebecca Schaden 36:08
Thank you so much, guys for tuning in today. I hope you liked this episode as much as I did. And I know my voice might sound a little strange because I have a sore throat but I hope it wasn't too much of a disturbance for you. Let me know what you thought of this episode. I am always eager to get your feedback, constructive criticism, recommendations, or any other ideas you might have for this podcast or maybe any other topics you want me to talk about. Just drop me a DM on Instagram on my main account, beccy_schdn or on my second account beccyontour_ underscore, I'm always happy to answer all questions you might have on Instagram. That being said, I hope you have a great rest of the week. Greetings from the other side of the ocean and I will talk to you in the next episode. Bye bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai