They're Not As Fragile As You Think: Real Talk About Modern Fatherhood

Parenthood isn't about perfection—it's about showing up, opening up, and caring deeply.

Rodrigo Lagos shares his transformation into a sports dad and how driving his 16-year-old daughter Willow to volleyball created unexpected moments of connection. He discusses navigating the teenage years with authenticity, supporting his son Drake's passion for archery and robotics, and why vulnerability strengthens father-child relationships. This parenting podcast explores the power of family rituals, from their annual Lago Summer Kickoff Event to holiday cooking traditions, and offers wisdom on building resilience through consistent care.

Key Takeaways:

• Sports involvement creates natural conversation opportunities with teenagers
• Kids are more resilient than we think when we show up for them
• Family rituals evolve as children grow and contribute their own ideas
• Vulnerability and apologizing to your kids builds deeper trust
• Opening up to your children happens earlier than most fathers expect
• Screen-free time in the car offers valuable connection windows
• Physical exhaustion after sports helps kids be more present
• Letting kids participate fully in family life teaches ownership

If you enjoyed The Dad Manual, please like and subscribe. If you loved it, share this episode with a Dad! Send your questions to [e-mail].

Connect with Tony Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thetonycooper/

Creators and Guests

Host

Tony Cooper

Tony Cooper is the founder of Playing the Game of Business, a business coach, father, and podcast host.

What is The Dad Manual?

The Dad Manual is a fatherhood podcast hosted by Tony Cooper, featuring honest conversations with dads about the real, unfiltered journey of parenthood. This parenting podcast for dads explores everything from the excitement of being a first time dad to navigating the teenage years. As one of the best podcasts for expecting dads and experienced fathers alike, we dive deep into what it actually means to be a modern dad—the struggles, the growth, the mistakes, and the moments that change you forever. Whether you're looking for a new dad podcast or seasoned parenting wisdom, this family podcast delivers the honest guidance you won't find in books.

[Tony Cooper] (0:00 - 0:10)
And they got the hormones and, you know, they're exploring their identity and who they are in the world and all that can come out like explosively. Call it the excuse of why we're actually here together.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (0:10 - 0:20)
You've got a teenage daughter, like a teenage daughter, like let myself go and fell on the bed and my elbow hit my kiddo in the head.

[Tony Cooper] (0:28 - 0:34)
All right. I am here with one of my favorite dads, Rodrigo. Will you please introduce yourself?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (0:36 - 0:43)
Hello, my name is Rodrigo. I am a great dad and I have some wisdom to share. All right.

Let's get into it.

[Tony Cooper] (0:44 - 0:48)
Do me a favor. Let's just start with tell me about your kids.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (0:49 - 1:01)
Yeah, thanks. I'm really excited about this and I have two children, my daughter, who just turned 16 this Monday. Her name is Willow.

Happy birthday, Willow.

[Tony Cooper] (1:02 - 1:05)
I didn't realize she and Olivia had birthdays so close to each other.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (1:06 - 1:06)
Yeah.

[Tony Cooper] (1:06 - 1:07)
Yeah.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (1:09 - 2:23)
Oh, wow. Like really close. Oh, goodness.

I remember the kind of similar month. I wasn't sure. That's that's awesome.

They love it. They love each other. She adores Olivia.

Willow is a sophomore in high school and really is into sports. She's a big volleyball player. She's excited about this season.

She's playing a really high level team and she is a social person just through and through and really, really enjoys connections, caring for people. That's really where she gravitates to and she loves reading. Then Drake Rohan.

He is my son. He is 12 and a half born in March. He loves computers.

He really, really likes solving problems and getting really into robotics. Anything that he can get his mind around, he is totally game on with that. And this year, kind of one of the big things that he's exploring is archery.

So he's starting to do competitive archery for the first time. So really excited. And I get to go and do that and take him to that.

So I'm pretty excited about what this season is going to bring. It's a whole new game.

[Tony Cooper] (2:23 - 2:29)
You have enough property. You can just set up your archery targets right on at home.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (2:30 - 2:55)
Yeah. Yeah. It's great that you break that up because that's actually been the conversation we've been in, which is like, well, how do we set it up?

What do we need to do? And it's been really great to kind of hear him out and what he wants to do with it because it's kind of sometimes a little quiet. But this time he's really like, yeah, let's do it.

Let's set this up. So I think in the next few weeks, we're going to have something going and just ordered all his equipment. So it's coming in pretty soon.

[Tony Cooper] (2:56 - 3:44)
That I'll tell you, that's really cool. Remember, you know, the place we lived when we were on that farm in Davis and Leo was really into baseball. And we set up a, what do you call it?

Pitchers. What do they call it? Like a pitcher's.

But I don't know. Yeah. It was like a whole long tent thing.

And so he could practice pitching and hitting batting cage. Like we set up a batting cage right on our front. You know, that big expansive lawn we had.

It was so fun to have the like his sport and his practice. Like right there. And you, you know, and I just think, I think being involved with your kid sports is like one of the greatest opportunities that we have as parents.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (3:44 - 4:35)
So yeah, you know, it was kind of came a little later for me because, you know, it's really too much into sports. We did a little bit when they were younger and it kind of was a big lull. And really Willow was the one who came a couple of years ago and said, hey, I really want to do volleyball.

I'm like, okay, well, how do we make it happen? And next thing you know, a year and a half, two years later, I'm a sports dad, which is really a new thing for me. You know, showing up and going and learning the game and meeting other parents and excited for my kid.

And how do I support you? What are like the conversations really kind of opened up a different, a different relationship in a way with, with Willow. Last year I took her to almost all of her practices.

I went to her volleyball conferences. We traveled to Orlando, all this stuff.

[Tony Cooper] (4:35 - 4:39)
You live in Colorado. So that's, that's a distance.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (4:39 - 5:05)
Yes. That's right. That's right.

Yeah. So it's kind of traveling team did all this stuff. And it was a lot of fun.

And really one of the things that I enjoyed kind of a lot from this new world is the amount of time that I got to spend with her, you know, driving and going there and then sometimes just chatting with her after the game and hearing or the practice and what worked or what didn't. It's been really, really fun and kind of a really cherished that time.

[Tony Cooper] (5:06 - 6:13)
It's really glad you said you talked about that because it is, it's like a, it's like a parent hack. Like the coaching Leo's baseball, he always found like the, the kids that were the best kids on the team had parents that were involved. And I always thought about that, like a chicken in the egg.

Was it, did the parents get involved because the kids were good? Or is it the other way around? And I, I, you know, like it really is one day, one of the parents came up to me and said, you know, his kid was struggling a little bit when he was like, how do I, how do I get him to, you know, like throw and catch better?

And I was like, do you play catch with him? He was like, no. I was like, he's not going to get better.

Like just, I mean, the kids at practice for what, three hours a week, I've got 12 kids. Like the kid is not going to be become exceptional in that. It's when you get involved.

But in addition, just the sports, totally what you're saying is it gets them in a very different, I don't know. How would you describe it? Like what's different about the quality of conversations you could have with Willow in that situation?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (6:13 - 7:48)
It's a great time. It's kind of almost like a, you press pause on this other attention drawing thing that happens in today's world with computers and social media and all that where she's at home and she'll be just using that. When we're traveling back and forth, we're in the car and she's kind of exhausted from the workout.

Half the time she's not on her phone and I ask her how things are going. So it's actually this little window that opens up where all of a sudden, I would say that maybe she's more in her body or more just kind of more physically here and we have these moments to be able to ask. And I think one of the things that really becomes for me really interesting is that it feels that it's much easier to open up conversations.

Hey, how did practice go is kind of a very easy, right? But like, you know, I used to get to know some of the other kids and it's like, well, how's it going with this other girl? You know, you guys had not a great time last time on practice.

How did it go? And all of a sudden you start getting a little more insight. You know, I kind of think that no, my daughter Willow starts to just let me in a little more.

And in those moments, I get to experience her world and I get to kind of hear what is it like to be 15 and a half being in these themes, going out there, putting yourself out there. What's her experience for us? It's just kind of these ends that happen.

I call it the pause where the other world just kind of hangs out for the 30 minute drive, 20 minute drive. And we get to have this moment together.

[Tony Cooper] (7:49 - 8:17)
You've heard me talk for years about like dating your kids. And I see as you're saying it like that's all it is. It's just finding that alone time where you're able to just to connect one on one where the rest of the world kind of fades away.

And yeah, that that's that's a really perfect. There's a connection that happens there that in a trust building that happens there that is just something that doesn't get fostered when you've got the rest of the family or the rest of the world around you.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (8:18 - 9:25)
That's right. And for her and I know for Willow, it's been this thing that she's been wanting. So she's been creating and generating this.

So it's been this I would say the first really clear example where she has gone and said, I would like to create this. And my role hasn't been one of like, how do I make it happen for you? My role has been like, okay.

How do I support you in this thing that you want? But it's actually you who's ahead. I'm actually here.

Of course, I'm here for you. But I'm here to support you and holding places that you may need or to drive you in the most practical sense. But it's her who's generating this piece.

And I think that that part is also has kind of this self pride of her like, hey, I made this happen. And I'm like, yeah, let's celebrate that you made this happen. Let's let's go on.

Let's actually where can we go with this? Great. Whatever it is that you want.

I'm here for you. So it's been this very, very unique experience. And I call it.

I feel that it's this place where she started to kind of turn and realize that she has that ability to generate and create.

[Tony Cooper] (9:25 - 9:39)
Well, you know, and so you got a teenage daughter, like a teenage daughter, like right in it. So I know you grew up with a sister, right? You guys were.

How close are you? How close are you in age?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (9:39 - 9:43)
We are about seven and a half, eight years.

[Tony Cooper] (9:43 - 10:03)
Okay. So not that close. So you probably don't really have much memory of her as a teenage girl.

So you've got one on your hands now. Like what are you noticing? What is like, you know, what's what's challenge about it?

What's awesome about it? I'm just I'd love to hear that description.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (10:04 - 13:45)
Oh, let's start with. What's awesome about it? Because that's that's that's kind of one is sometimes when you're in it, sometimes it's really hard because there's a lot of challenges come up.

But having those moments and having the opportunity to step out a little bit really gives that. So, you know, it was awesome is you really I'm really starting to see her emerge. You know, when I kind of said at the beginning, she is this social person.

She is and that's the gravity step. But what it is and like she really cares deeply for humans and for people or her friends. No, it really just anchors her in the world, which can be really amazing because you can really see her caring for others and having those relationships that really flourish.

And at other times, she may ignore her schoolwork because it's so important. She may skip a class because she did want to spend this time with kids with her friends for and or why reason. But seeing her emerge and start to try that out like literally, you know, two weeks ago where we live in a world where lockdowns happen at school and her school experience one of these things.

And she immediately called us and it was kind of a very heightened state. And when we got to the offsite school area where I could pick her up, my wife and I, what we found was her comforting and comforting each other with one of her friends there and really kind of paired up caring for this this kid who we know. And of course, it was like, yeah, we'll take care of both of these kids and make sure everybody's safe and we did that.

And but I kind of that's kind of the piece that I'm really, you know, like, oh, I love seeing that. I love seeing that portion of her and she's figuring it out. What's challenging is that, you know, I think, you know, coming into this world of parenting, you want to think that I remember a lot of folks that I knew said, you know, like, yeah, your kids are going to challenge you.

You're kind of racing these kids that are going to come up and push right against you. And I always kind of thought like, well, when is that going to happen? When is going to happen?

And the reality is that it's like, you know, it's boiling the frog. It's always been happening in different ways. And now at 14, 15 is this places that she's honed this place where she kind of sees it and she pushes.

And what that looks like is in our household is really where her emotions really get the best of her. And she is 15 and she is still figuring this out. And, you know, it's a two piece of like, oh, I'm glad that this is happening.

And like, oh, my God, I have no idea what to do with this. Whereas that she does let go and she may have those emotions that she has no ability right now to really regulate. And they happen at home and she explodes and she's like, hey, dad, no, or, you know, get out of my room or whatever that really you can elevate pretty, pretty high.

So this place where like when I'm outside of the moment, it's like, I'm glad that there's a safe space for that to happen. But at the moment is it's a very, very challenging place because she is pushing. She's pushing the boundary.

She's pushing sometimes us, my wife and I have like, hey, I need this space. And that is, it's challenging because I don't, I would say that the real challenge is like, where is the line of like, this is okay and this is a safe space and she should continue to explore this. And a place of like, hey, now it's an opportunity for you to take a go at how do you regulate here?

Let's have a conversation. How do we actually go beyond just the emotion?

[Tony Cooper] (13:46 - 14:29)
So I'm curious for you. So when the emotion gets up, right? So kids, teenagers are exploring their emotions.

They don't have, like the wild mustangs still. They haven't been tamed. And they got the hormones and they're exploring their identity and who they are in the world and all of that can come out like explosively.

That's, I think that's pretty typical. I'm just curious, how do you regulate yourself in it? And then like they explode, you explode, it ends badly.

But I know someone who's a lot more measured than that. So I'm curious, how do you handle it?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (14:30 - 16:39)
Thanks. I appreciate that. I want to store that one in the back of my mind for those moments where I haven't quite gotten it.

Yeah. So I think there's one thing that I come back to that really helps me. And that is I am here for her.

Like there's this portion of me where I'm really, you know, when I've had enough sleep, but I have my resources in front of me when I'm on my best, I would say. What's really present for me is I am here for my child, for her to have the best possible upbringing, love, home, all those pieces. So that's what's at stake.

When I think about this, it's like I really get present to what's at stake in this moment. For me is to care and to love my child. How do I do that unconditionally now and forever right now?

So it's this place where I can really come back to what's the most important thing for me. It's her well-being, it's her future, it's her exploring and having the ability and the space for that. So that's kind of what I'm present to in the moment.

The more practical sense, because it's incredibly challenging when your child for the first time gets the courage to really push back and say, no, you know, get out of my room, which is something that was unthinkable maybe three months before, but like, no, you're out of my room, I want my space. There is a place where this too shall pass. There is a level of trust that I have that we will come back to relating.

This is not the end of it. It feels like it. It feels like, oh my God, the door is closing.

So there's this place of like, no, this too shall pass. No, that. I say it on my best, that's where I am.

I'm really kind of being able to see the wider field.

[Tony Cooper] (16:40 - 17:10)
Here's the visual that came up for me as you were saying that. I was imagining her eruption like a storm. And you were able to see through the explosion and the energy and the language and the word and all that stuff, and you can connect right through all the way back to like, that's my daughter and I love her.

And who do I get to be in this moment that's going to help her be a better human?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (17:11 - 17:42)
That's right. Yeah, definitely. It seems deeply and seeing her, there's been a few moments with her where it's been like, it's been waiting the storm out.

It's like, okay, I'm okay, I can weather more of this. What else do you have? It's okay.

And to some degree, when I'm really kind of present, it's like, it isn't personal. It is happening. It is the ocean being the ocean.

It is the weather being the weather. It isn't personal.

[Tony Cooper] (17:42 - 17:58)
You know, this is very deleted data, right? Like, the mass doing it there is the grounded consciousness and the feminine is there is like trying to fuck with it to see if it's going to hold. Yeah, yeah.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (17:58 - 19:19)
And there's been a few moments, I guess this was earlier this year where that was happening and there was a lot going on for her with a boyfriend and other kids, parents getting involved. It was a big, big deal and she was extremely upset. And it was first coming out very explosively and kind of there was this moment where I was really with her.

I was like, wait a minute. There's a portion I can be with her. I can feel with her that she's really scared.

She's never experienced this before. This is completely new. And I remember that night sitting with her and saying, okay, I'm here.

Like, let's figure this out together, whatever this is. And there was a moment where she finally kind of said, I am really scared. I don't know what to do here.

I was like, that's okay. Let's hang out here. So this moment of like really kind of just sitting and sitting and sitting and the layers and the layers.

So that really is the moments of that's what I'm here for in a way like this is what it feels like to me, like the unmapped because I say I kind of sit there, but honestly, I'm not sure which way we're going. I'm just here loving my daughter. Whatever is going to happen, we're going to be here together.

That's awesome.

[Tony Cooper] (19:20 - 19:35)
All right. So I saw this on Instagram the other day. I'm going to read it to you and get your thoughts on it.

All right. I never want my children to pause and think, I can't tell my dad, he'll get mad. I want their first thought to be, I need to tell my dad, he'll know what to do.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (19:36 - 22:01)
So that's actually really close to home right now. I think all the conversations we're having and it reminds me of something that a statement, maybe a mission statement, I'll call it that, that my wife and I created when we started to raise kids and said, what is, when we're all done with this thing and we've done the best we can, what do we want to have this look like? And the idea was like, hey, we know our kids, just like us, are going to make mistakes growing up in life.

You try things and sometimes they don't work out. Sometimes it can get very challenging. And what we want is that when that occurs, that they pick up the phone or they come to us and say, hey, here's what's going on.

How do we get help? And as they've been growing, you know, 15, 16 years old, that's been put to the test. And there's been moments when that's happened and it's been great, you know, you know, she called us right away when things were in lockdown at school.

I was like, hey, boom, that was very clear. Other moments where it's been like, hey, yeah, it's time to pick me up from this party. We have Willow and I have a code that she sends me a robot emoji.

One emoji is come get me. Two robot emojis is come get me now. Three robot emojis is come get me now and call me.

So there's this place that we've created also pieces for that. The interesting thing, so that's kind of the places that let's call those what I call maybe success versions of that. And there's other places where it's been challenging because I would say it's been challenging for me.

And for my wife to the degree to create and generate the room for her to feel safe to do that. And to be very, very specific about what I'm saying is scholastically. No, I have an expectation that, you know, we want A's and B's and this and don't be late at school and all these kind of rules.

And so a lot of places where that is, she hasn't come to us. She's been like, no, they're going to get mad because I'm not getting the grade or I'm failing or I kind of this. And that was a big struggle last year.

And I think this year, we'll have a little bit more of an opening, but last year, that was a huge, huge struggle.

[Tony Cooper] (22:02 - 22:13)
Interesting. What do you think the, what's the difference between those? Like why in some instances, she was like, I automatically need to come to you and others like, I don't want to go to you.

What do you think is different?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (22:13 - 23:30)
I think it's the reaction that I've had. I think the way in which there is, and I've thought about this a lot and it's this, there's this place for me that, you know, says doing well in school, like there's this measure of doing well, let's call it grades or success in that realm, gives you access and gives you the tools to be successful later. Like it gives you this place.

So there is this fear when I see her not do that, that it's not happening and that she's not going in that direction. And all of a sudden I'm in fear mode. So I no longer, earlier I was talking like, oh, this is great.

I have all the room in the world for you. You're exploding. It's fine.

There's this place where it's like, no, like, no, I see that you're not going in this direction. And that means that all these other, let's call them bad things, all these things that are not going to work out for you are all of a sudden just starting to happen. So that is, or another way to say it is, I want to make sure I'm holding very tightly that these things, the bad things don't happen to you.

So I think that that is one of the biggest differences. Like, you know, she comes in like, oh, this is all rigid. If I come now, like it's just going to be the same thing that there's no room.

[Tony Cooper] (23:30 - 23:37)
She can feel when you're contracted versus when you're open. Oh, yeah. You're contracted, she's like, fuck that.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (23:38 - 23:52)
Yeah, exactly right. Like, you know, whatever. I'm going to go and like, if it's going to be that way, then we'll fuck you then too.

There's definitely a pushback just becomes almost cyclical and feeds in itself because there's no room.

[Tony Cooper] (23:54 - 24:23)
So it's challenging. Yeah. And, you know, what's really present is how much, how we show up as parents, as dads, like our energy, you were talking before, but just like even like how much sleep am I getting?

You know, how much have I taken care of myself allows me to show up in a way. And that a lot of times they're just, we think it's them, but they're really just reacting against like how we are showing up.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (24:25 - 24:34)
Yeah, absolutely. Like hands down, you know, I went through a, two months ago I went through a fairly large event in my life where I have had their disorder.

[Tony Cooper] (24:34 - 25:03)
Yeah, I want to talk about this because this is a big deal. And in particular for you, right? You and I have spent a lot of time talking about this, but like for your kids, I'm really curious about what their experience has been and like what did you do?

How did you take that into account as you were going through it? So go ahead and share what you went through.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (25:04 - 25:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give kind of the short version. It's been 17 weeks since it started.

17 weeks ago I was diagnosed with a stomach cancer. I was just kind of really out of the blue, kind of came out. And to give kind of how this really affected our family and my kids, you know, my wife and I chose to wait a couple of weeks until we had more information, but we were committed to sharing what was happening.

As early as possible. So a few weeks, two weeks after my diagnosis, we sat down with kids and we shared this information. And it was really kind of like, well, we don't know where we're heading, but I do know that it's important that they understand and that they know that we're going to get through it.

And that was kind of the goal. It was like, hey, here's where we are.

[Tony Cooper] (25:52 - 25:54)
That was the message that was, okay.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (25:54 - 29:49)
We're getting through this. And, you know, at Drake, it was just past 12 at that time. He was very like, okay.

He had maybe one or two questions. What is it? What are you doing?

What's next? I was pretty kind of analytical and straight with this. Willow was a little different.

She kind of was like, no, I'm okay. I was like, all right. So it's very, yeah, it was kind of like, well, you have questions.

And she asked, like, I think one question that night, that evening. And I was like, okay. And as we progress, you know, the realization of what was going to be required of me, which was going to be a fairly big surgery to remove, a gastrectomy to remove part of my stomach, most of my stomach that was really in the horizon.

We had the conversations and we really came to head. Like I would say the moment that really kind of exemplifies this place is I'm three days out from my surgery. Which is a conversation today, right?

That's right. It was eight weeks ago today. So basically a little over eight weeks ago, we're sitting down and we're, this is the final prep.

You know, we have all the people who are going to help and all of these pieces are already in place. And I had a couple of weeks before asked both the kids, hey, I would like, feels like I would like for you to come and visit me in the hospital once I'm out of surgery. And they would say, yeah, yeah.

Okay. We'll come to prom. I'm sure that.

So great. It's awesome. And that night we're talking and a lot having happening.

It's very intense. You know, there's just a big event that's about to occur. And Willow comes and she says, hey, I want to go spend the night at my friend's house.

My surgery was Friday, Friday and Saturday night. And what occurred for me was this moment of being deeply hurt. And in that moment, what I, what I didn't have the resources for was to recognize that and, and, and own that and share that.

And what happened was that I, of years I kind of exploded in a sense and really said, Hey, like, no, it's not okay. Like that kind of really kind of spoke from a place of being hurt without me really. It took a couple of days, about 24 hours, maybe not a couple of days, but 24 hours for me to kind of like, Oh, wait a minute.

Like I am the parent I, I, I, and then what shifted kind of a really opened up for me in that moment was through conversations with my wife. And then later with Willow was how challenging the time had been for her. That I had four weeks before that been saying, I can't take you to this because this, or I have been planning like for this for four weeks, I'm not going to be there to be able to take you to your first day of sophomore school, you know, all these pieces.

So like it had kind of been building up for her and it was a way for her to kind of say, Hey, this is too much. I have to kind of take a break. So we actually talked about it later and she came and we talked and I had an opportunity to say, Hey, you know, like that was on me.

Like, like I take ownership of that one. That was her. But really, you know, what was, what was kind of present was two different ways that my kids took this on.

And for Willow, the part that really showed up was I've been so doing so many things with her that when she started to experience this place where I pulled back, that was really challenging for her. And not having the time or the space where we were having those conversations really kind of made a difference in our relationship. And now, seven weeks, eight weeks after my surgery, we've been starting to have those kind of really restoring pieces together around that.

[Tony Cooper] (29:50 - 29:58)
And, you know, thank God you're doing well. Right? You're on the path of recovery and...

[Rodrigo Lagos] (29:59 - 30:15)
Absolutely. That's been kind of, you know, the pieces, everything's gone as good as it can. And eight weeks out, I'm doing fantastic.

And all the signs are positive for the security of surgery. And we're going to continue to be here for a very, very long time. Awesome.

Yay.

[Tony Cooper] (30:16 - 30:53)
Yay. Yay. All right.

So I want to, something, you know, something else very, you know, interesting about you related to dad. So we all, you know, we all bring our upbringing into our own parenting. And so I'm just curious, you know, I want you to share about your childhood and your dad and your relationship with your dad and how those have formed your ideas about fatherhood prior to becoming a dad.

And then like what you've learned, you know, since you've actually been a dad now for a while.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (30:54 - 32:52)
So I'll say a couple of things kind of my upbringing to give a bit of a window there. You know, I'm in my late 40s now. I was born in El Salvador and grew up until I was almost 10 years old.

I'm the youngest of four. So, you know, I kind of came along. My parents are in their 30s.

I did the math. That's right. And, you know, what the memories that I have growing up is, you know, my mom was really kind of mostly, you know, home and kind of caring for us in a lot of ways.

And for my dad, he worked a lot. He's a professional civil engineer, ran a company, all kinds of different involvements outside the home. Very active in that.

So the majority of my interactions with my father and in those may I would say early preteen times is around discipline and knowing him as somebody who provided for the family. So my ideas of a father from that, what I really took away is there's a huge portion around being a provider, being somebody who cares for the family in that way. My interactions with my dad were, I would say, fairly almost at times transactional in a way.

So the level of affection was not incredibly high. So like, and that has, you know, a lot of pieces know he grew up with our mother and that kind of nurturing aspect for him really didn't exist. So my idea of kind of how to care for my kids or how to show, let's say, paternal love for my kids really came later.

I would say, you know, we emigrated to the United States and then later as life changed, I ended up moving in with my sister in my mid-teens when I was 16 to finish up high school and so forth. So I really kind of went into the world a little earlier than other folks.

[Tony Cooper] (32:53 - 32:59)
Well, I mean also, you know, the background of being growing up in El Salvador, right? That was not a pleasant time.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (32:59 - 36:52)
No, that was the middle of, you know, a civil war. And definitely, you know, we were extremely lucky that we weren't affected in a dramatic rate on, I would say, a daily basis. But it was definitely many moments of my upbringing that affected me and how life is, sometimes can go from being here and not here very quickly.

And safety. I would say like that statement that I just made is really actually how it's incorporated into my world and my life is about safety. What does it mean to have a safe space, a safe environment?

So I'm somebody who I would characterize myself as hypervigilant around these pieces. And I would say that's been something that has been so part of, particularly when my kids were younger, like to be more concrete is like, okay, we're going to travel and we're not going to travel to these places. We're going to go here and here are the places where I feel okay with my kids and not.

And like, we lived in San Francisco, which is a great city and absolutely go out. I'm the kind of dad who sees the entire playground and says, I'm going to sit here to keep an eye on my kid and this. So a lot of my attention, I would say, was this place of safety and to some degree helicopter parent, maybe to a degree, but definitely somebody who was like, hey, I'm going to be right next to my child to some degree and keep them safe.

So there's a lot of that that kind of showed up in definitely my early upbringing. I would say the second part of the question, which was kind of where a little later, where did the ideas come from for parenting? I was really lucky that in my early 20s, I became friends with a lot of people that were older than I, about 10 years older than I, give or take, just happened to be that that's what life brought to me.

And one of the things that that brought to my world was children. So in my early 20s, I had the idea that I was like, not going to have kids. I was like, I'm good.

And I remember this very clearly. I had a roommate whose girlfriend lived in this for a little while, and she had a two and a half, three year old daughter. And it was the first time that I had a relationship with a child that I wasn't related to.

And in that moment and seeing her also parent and then having this relationship shifted and what shifted was like, oh, I'm trying to see if I can really name it. What really shifted was this place of, it kind of awakened me. I may be a part of it.

I was like, I truly, truly love being, I'll use the word accountable or responsible for a human being. And it's not like it controls me, but it's more like there's this place where it's an incredible responsibility. I got to remember being left alone with this three year old for the first time here.

Why don't you babysit? I never done that. And all of a sudden I'm sitting there, I'm like, well, okay, well, what?

And all of a sudden it was like, not only like a little scared, like I don't know what to do, but at the same time, like, oh my goodness, this is a great, amazing responsibility opportunity. What do we do? And then we watch shows and we had a ton of fun and we did this.

So it just opened up my world to like, wow, this is a world that is amazing and that I really enjoy that bit. And being around a bunch of other dads that were had younger kids, seeing how they interacted. And I can remember another moment, which is the moment that I say is experiencing, seeing other dads being unconditionally loving to their kids.

Of course, I'll take it here. Not like, you know, a pushover, but more like, yeah, we're going to take care of kids and whatever's happening with this child, I'm here. That was kind of a different window into the world of parenting.

[Tony Cooper] (36:53 - 37:03)
I didn't know that about you. I didn't know you weren't interested. What made you certain about that?

Like, what made you believe that you didn't, that you were okay not having kids?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (37:05 - 38:49)
Like I said, at 16, I felt really like, here you go, grow up. Like, you're part of the world now. You know, at 16, I did live with my sister.

She's eight years older than me, and she was a teacher in Los Angeles. And mostly the rule at home was, get good grades, you do whatever you want. So I felt kind of like this place of like, oh, no, this is how you grow up.

And from that perspective, I felt this place where I can be responsible for myself and then leave me alone. Like, that's enough. I'm going to be, I'm going to take care of me, and I don't want anything else.

And that's kind of really where it was for me is like, no, I don't want, it was a, it was almost a, an idea of, let's say burden maybe is the best word that I have, but more like, why do I want to take on this, like, this response? Like, I used the word responsibility earlier, but in this sense, I'm using it as like, why do I want to take that on? No.

And that's really what shifted. Like, for me, in that moment that I described this, seeing these are a human being, being with them and having this relationship, but all of a sudden it changed from a place of like, oh man, I have to do all these things. Like, they have to do these things too.

I get to do these things. I am lucky enough to be a part of this other life where they're impacting me and I get to impact them. And that is an amazing opportunity.

There's kind of like, that's really what shifted. It's definitely like, I have to, to like, no, I get to. I am lucky enough that I get to do this.

[Tony Cooper] (38:52 - 38:56)
Yeah, just to change it, change of one word, changes the whole story.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (38:57 - 38:58)
Yeah, it does indeed.

[Tony Cooper] (38:59 - 39:40)
Yeah. So how, and then so how has being a dad continued to change you? And also, you know, maybe through the lens a little bit, like, you know, they say that kids are mirrors.

So like, what if they reflect it back to you? What has changed about you? Because to go from, it's interesting.

It's not even like you went from like, oh, I was selfish and then I became unselfish. That's not what happened. You went from like, I was thinking about myself and thinking like kids would suck to, I was thinking about myself and thinking about how like kids would be great.

Yeah. And so you keep thinking about yourself, like your own image about yourself continues to change. So, yeah, what's the journey been like?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (39:41 - 42:02)
Yeah, there's two moments that I think that, when you asked the question came up, and I think early on, Willow, I was the parent at home that was in charge of a movie, transferring our kiddo that had been sleeping with us into her own bed, and we're doing that transition. And that's notoriously can be very challenging. And it was at home.

And I remember this moment of struggling with that, struggling with being in there, and we're trying, you know, like now she's crying and she doesn't want to go to sleep and she wants to go back to the other bed and struggling and struggling and started reading to her. And there was times that it worked, there was times that it didn't. And I remember one night being so upset that I didn't know how to do this, that I wasn't succeeding, that she was just kind of like, and then what started to happen was like, that I have to do this kind of was showing up.

I think it didn't have that distinction at that point, but it was this like, kind of really intense anger and kind of frustration. And what changed, kind of what changed in me, what my child changed in me was like, again, sort of like, wait, I get to spend two extra hours with my kid tonight, and maybe it's not the best hours where like I'm having fun and building this or not, but I do get to spend these hours. And that started to shift for me over time where, one, I started to read things that I liked, that was a big change, not necessarily this book that I was tired of reading 20 times, but something like a little bit more interesting and maybe she didn't understand all of it and it was just fun books anyways, but that started to change.

So it was this moment of I could introduce something that I was excited about too, but also I got to say I get to spend this time with her. So how it shifted for me was like, oh, I get to make a difference on how I relate with my kid. What do I do?

That makes a difference. And then going like later, and I would say that over the months, we ended up actually reading quite a bit together and it was really fun moments where sometimes I was spending even extra time after she fell asleep just reading my home book because it was exciting. So I was kind of this first moment that early on it shifted for me that I have a say, a big say in how these moments can go.

A big, big piece.

[Tony Cooper] (42:03 - 42:42)
What really came up for me and I can even said that because I totally get, I think most people can understand the frustration. I'm like, oh my God, it's the same fucking book like 20 times. Like, how can you keep being interested in the same book?

But what I got from your telling of that was that's my perspective, the reader of the book, but the receiver, the one listening, probably didn't even shit about the book. It's the connection that's there, that they're really like, the book is sort of irrelevant. A book is the medium for the connection.

So that's something I hadn't really considered and I'm like, yeah, that would be a good thing to remember.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (42:43 - 44:26)
Definitely, definitely, you know, it's the medium, it's the, let's call it the excuse about why we're actually here together. Almost no way. Like, yeah, we're going to bedding all this and the book or the reading sort of facilitates this thing, but the content is almost, it really is irrelevant to a large degree.

And it was that. I didn't read a lot of books. And it was funny because we actually, just a slight segue, we had a lot of fun, actually got a little older.

She started to choose books, and she chose this storyline that kept on repeating over and over again. There was like 40 books in this series. And by the fifth book, you know, there's different names on the characters.

And what occurred, I remember this moment, that was so fun for us, where I asked her like, hey, have you noticed that we're just doing the same thing over and over again after the, you know, there's the fifth or eighth book? And she's like, yeah, yeah, it is. And so we had this great kind of fun moment of, I think she had to have been probably about maybe six or seven years old.

I can't remember how old she was. But this moment of, hey, we just dropped down just a hair from content to context to like, what's actually, like, how do these things get built? It was kind of a really, really fun place.

So actually, I came to really, and just so funny, I hadn't thought about this in a while. I came to really, really enjoy this moment together with both my kids of reading, of putting them to sleep, going to the room, and the ritual of reading and all these pieces. You know, if I would say what shifted, you know, like it was so hard, and that was so frustrating.

All these pieces too, really enjoying that time and cherishing it and absolutely having a ton of fun with it. Both of them are big readers now.

[Tony Cooper] (44:27 - 45:38)
Yeah, you also just reminded me of when we lived in the Western edition when Leo was just born. And he was, Olivia was easy to put to sleep. She would fall asleep immediately, but then she would wake up a lot.

Leo was very hard to put to sleep, but once he was asleep, it was out, out. And I remember sitting there with Leo, there's like a very specific, like, set of, like, movements and activities we would do. Like, we kind of figured out a little bit of a formula.

It took a while. And I remember sitting there, like we had this special rocking chair, and he was sitting on my lap, and I would just remember caught myself like, just, God, would you just fucking fall asleep already? To, like, kind of getting, this is a pretty unique moment.

Like, he's not going to be this size for very long. He's not going to be this age. And it allowed, you know, it definitely allowed me to just, like, be more present to this moment, knowing that kids grow, like, really quickly and change really quickly.

And so, it definitely was one of those parenting moments where I kind of woke up to, like, be present with it because that's, it's going to be gone quickly.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (45:39 - 47:35)
I want to just, you know, kind of write the coattail where you just said there, because it reminded me of this very early moment. Willow was not a car person, a car child. You know, I remember being very, you know, put it in the car seat in the car, and it would be screaming like we're hurting this child.

And we're just going to the store, okay? We just got to go get whatever we got to go get, right? And I remember, you know, it's like, okay, I'm going to get in the back with her, and we're going to distract her.

And it didn't matter what we did. It was just like, I have like the screams and the crying. And I remember at one point, you know, speaking with my wife and just talking about it and kind of, but for me personally, what you just described exactly is like, oh, how it showed up for me was, you know, she is six months old or whatever month old she was at that time.

It's like, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be sitting back in the back seat when she's 16, and it's going to be crying and screaming. I remember that moment. I'm really wrong.

And it might be, but it might be a different story, you know? And I remember thinking about that and it's like, okay, well, what about eight? What about five?

What about, you know, so it's kind of these moments of kind of realizing like, and the reality is like, oh yeah, this moment too shall pass, right? But the other aspect that you're calling out, which is it'll pass, but also there's something really unique about that moment and to recall that it's happening now. Like right now you have this moment with your child and it may not be the one that you expected.

It may not be the one that you actually are saying you want, but it is happening. And there's something truly amazing to say, okay, let's be here now. And we got through it, you know, and it didn't last that long.

It was a few months. It felt like an eternity and then she was okay. I love that.

[Tony Cooper] (47:35 - 47:57)
Another thought. So given that you're somebody who has been pretty active in personal growth, transformation, what are some of the things that you've worked on, maybe their generational type trauma, inherited things, worked on yourself that you feel really helped you be better dad?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (47:58 - 51:42)
Yeah, yeah, thanks. That's, I appreciate that question. It's one that, one, there's always more ease to go.

There's always more work to do, but I'm really fortunate that I've had the opportunity to be exposed to a lot of these things and bring them back. I would say the biggest thing for me is one of the things I dealt with a lot growing up in the trauma was really about this place, like I said, safety early. But if I kind of go a little bit deeper in there, it was this place that for me in our home, a lot of the ways in which conflict or tense and difficult moments were really dealt with were mostly we're going to forget about them and in a few days it will be better.

That's kind of one of the sort of strategies. Yeah, so that's one thing that really was challenging because I had no, in a way, idea how to be able to handle that as I can start becoming an adult. So I worked with that a lot in different mediums.

So at home, we try a lot where it's like, you know, okay, let's talk about them. How can we talk about them? How do we bring them in a place?

And sometimes it's easy. It's like, okay, it's this, you know, the laundry didn't get put away or whatever, something like that, and it's very straightforward. And there's moments that are very, very challenging, you know, with like, let's talk about grades.

Let's talk about these other pieces where something has really, you know, impacted our lives at home where there is something that we ask the kids not to do. Our child, like, hey, no, please. You know, like, hey, call us when you're in trouble and it hasn't happened.

How do you bridge that subject? And I think what's important, I used to think that what was really important is that we talk about it and we get to a resolution. And I was really committed, like, that was the important piece.

What I've really realized after doing this multiple times with my kids now is that what I find that the really important thing is, is that we open the conversation and it's happening. We may not get to a place where my kid walks away going like, oh, okay, this is great, right? Like, that actually doesn't happen all the time.

You're less of the time, you know? But what I really find is that we're having the conversations and we're introducing concepts like, hey, you have a say here. We have a say here.

What happened for you? And we heard them. And maybe there's times that my kid may walk away saying, like, still angry or still pissed or still, like, whatever.

You still didn't hear me. And a few years ago, I was like, oh, man, that was a failure or a conversation. And kind of where I've gotten to now is like, there is no failed conversation if you're engaging with your kids.

There's this place where I get it like, that's right. It is the ongoing piece. You're building.

It's like, you know, you're not building. You know, you're like the river doesn't get carved out on that one conversation, right? The river gets carved out over and over and over again.

And you're bringing it up and you have it in the room. And every once in a while, then my kid brings up something like, hey, you know, they called me out of something. You said this.

You said you would take me to this. One of the drakes said the other day, you said that we would go to archery on these dates and it didn't happen. And he was right on.

Like there was these days and I didn't put it in the counter and they fell through and like, oh. But it's allowed for that. I couldn't found saying that to my father growing up, you know, but this is the difference.

I would say like there's this place where like, you know, going back and having those conversations opens up the pieces.

[Tony Cooper] (51:43 - 52:13)
Yeah. Well, what I, I, what I really appreciate about you and joy and how intentional you've been with, with the, what you want to create with your kids. And so what are some of the core principles that you've looked to establish, you know, I don't know whether you can call it like family values or something like that.

And also what are some of the rituals? Cause I know that that's another thing that, that you guys love to do. So what are some of those things?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (52:14 - 53:25)
Yeah. Core values. And I think is we're always here for each other and like there's, you know, I've said it a few times, but kind of it's easy to say the word unconditional love.

And I think for us, what it really means is we don't matter what's going on. We're here. We're always going to turn towards each other.

That's fundamental for my relationship with my wife. That's kind of like one of the pieces, but it's really this place that also has infused the relationship with our kids, which is that we're here for each other. You know, ultimately, okay, that great didn't work out, but I still love you.

Like the greats don't mean anything around the relationship and the love that I have for you. I can be, I can have disappointment. I can say I can express my expectations, but those are not my love.

Those don't represent how I love and I care for you. Those are distinct. Those are distinct things.

So I think that's kind of one of the fundamental things. For us and our family. And as they get older, it's been a lot more interesting on how we can distinguish that together with them.

It's easier when they're little, because you just love them. You take care of them. You feed them, et cetera.

As they get older, it expands.

[Tony Cooper] (53:26 - 53:29)
Yeah. I'm so furious. You know, because I love you.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (53:29 - 53:59)
That's definitely, you know, like, or it's like, yeah, that consequence is happening and that. And you know, my kid may say like, well, you know, you know, this happened. If you love me, that wouldn't be happening.

It's like, okay. Yeah. I get it.

Like, okay. That, that, that did not feel good. That felt like shit.

Yeah. All right. Well, we will have an opportunity to have a conversation.

And at our best, we do. We have a conversation. I was like, damn, that really hurt.

That really, really hurt.

[Tony Cooper] (54:00 - 54:02)
Finding and pushing your buttons.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (54:03 - 54:28)
Oh, man. Definitely. And just wait till you have what I call the three way.

Argument where it's my wife and me and my child. And then she's pushing both our buttons and she knows how to push buttons that will have us all of a sudden get into it. Oh, like that is masterful.

That is, that is, that is like that happened two weeks, three weeks ago. And I was like, oh, okay. That was, that was a good show.

All right.

[Tony Cooper] (54:30 - 54:32)
Let's come back to that one later.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (54:33 - 56:28)
Fantastic. But I love your ritual question. I don't want to miss that one because I really, you know, as an immigrant, sort of, you know, I grew up with kind of recreating myself in a way.

And sort of rituals that I had growing up kind of being sometimes in the background. And as I started to create our family, we said, well, let's create rituals. And when we had kids became more important.

And one of the things that Joy and I created when they were about four or five years old, just when they started to go to school and they were coming back from school, was that at the beginning of every summer, we have our summer kickoff and we call it the Lago Summer Kickoff Event. So no matter what's happening, what we do is we go somewhere together as a family. And at first it was like, you know, we live in the Bay Area.

Let's go to Monterey for a day, overnight. There's something where we have to drive or go somewhere to enjoy. And the goal and the intention has always been, we're here as a family and we get to enjoy each other no matter where we are, no matter what we're doing.

And it's a thing now and we love it. And even through COVID, as hard as it was, you know, is one of the reasons we made it to Boulder. You know, that was that summer's event where, so let's go to family, we're going to be together.

And we're going to explore this place that we may move to. Surprised we moved here. But as this place, and it's become a ritual for us.

And now the ritual, how it's shaped is that the kids are required to go on our vacation ritual together until they're 25 years old. 25, okay. 25, which we joke about.

And it's funny because Willow brought this up. She's like, yeah, wait a minute. You're taking us somewhere and you're paying for our tickets and our meals.

Yeah, don't worry. I'll be there.

[Tony Cooper] (56:28 - 56:38)
You know, they're not dumb. We're just kind of fun. You know, the other thing you did not acknowledge is they like hanging out with you, which is huge.

They do.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (56:39 - 59:11)
They do, yeah. No, it's kind of a joke about that. But, you know, we have a ton of fun and we get to create it together.

That's enough to get older. The ritual expands and it shifts. And it kind of takes its own form in a way.

I know that Joy and I sort of, let's say, we put the seed down and we started kind of the idea. But now it's sort of like they get involved. They're like, well, we like this.

You know, we want to do this. Or what about this? I think one of the rules that happened a couple of years ago was we have to go somewhere where it's warm, you know, where we go and enjoy the warmth, whether it's a beach or this.

It's this fun place where they get to kind of infuse their ideas, their portions, and it becomes, it becomes our ritual. You know, it becomes this thing that we do together. So that's one of them.

And then definitely the holidays is the other one where we kind of generate our own thing. And Drake, I have to really give credit to him because he is that person that can see in between the lines. He observes very clearly.

And a few years ago, he said, I want to create a ritual for our holidays together. Now, he loves to cook. He loves to be in the kitchen with joy primarily.

So the ritual is that every year in the holiday times for one of our meals where we have friends and family over, they create the main course. And they happen to be whatever their imagination really goes. But it's always very intricate and fancy.

And he's all about doing it from scratch and all this. And it's been amazing because it's not only the ritual we get to consume and everybody gets to enjoy, but it's the ritual where people get invited to create together. So it's been kind of great.

Like, as they get older, it kind of makes me think in this conversation, as they get older, one of the most amazing things is they start to participate in a whole and full way in the family and together. So I get to learn from them. I get to learn like, hey, we can create anything we want together, like this ritual.

I get to learn that. I get to learn the places where I have the opportunity to take ownership or apologize for the place where I hurt them. I get to learn the value of that and the remembering, like, yeah, that this is part of the game that we're playing together.

[Tony Cooper] (59:12 - 59:41)
You and I have so much more to talk about, but I wanted to keep this to about an hour. So we're out there. So let's, you know, one thing I really hope is that we'll do this again sometime soon because there's definitely to be continued about it.

So to finish off, final question I have for you, going back to like the purpose of this whole thing, is what advice, based on everything you've learned and experienced, what advice would you give to a brand new father?

[Rodrigo Lagos] (59:43 - 1:01:49)
I give two pieces here because there's one that I learned really early on that kind of changed my perspective. I remember Willow being two or three days old and I was at home. She was born at home.

We were lucky that we got to do that. And I remember she was laying down in the middle of the bed and I went to lay down and I had this moment, this lapse of forgetting that my kid was there. And I just let myself go and fell on the bed and my elbow hit my kiddo in the head.

Of course she woke up and she started crying. And I remember what I felt, which was like, I just damaged my kid. I just hurt them.

And this is like, oh my God. And I feel horrible and all this. And my wife, being the sensible mother she is, she's like, it's okay.

She's fine. Took her, started to, you know, take care of her and rescue her if she was fine. And what I want to kind of share in that moment is that for me it was like, they're so fragile.

They're so this. They're so like, I'm going to hurt them like there was this moment. And so that what I want to impart here is there's a difference between fragility and caring.

Like, you know, your kids are resilient and they're resilient because you are caring for them. You build the resilience with them. And so I would say what you take away is what you put in, how you care for your child.

You have a say in the resiliency and how well they will do, how you care for them. They're not as fragile as you think. There's a lot there.

And they're not as fragile as you think because you're there for them. Like that's the kind of the key part. It's not like, go on your own.

It's more like, yeah, when things happen, you'll be there. Of course, you'll take care of them. You're going to be there.

And that's the part that I think that hearing if I would have heard that as a young parent, it kind of really would have changed some pieces where it's like, I have a say, I can participate and I can make a difference. That's one.

[Tony Cooper] (1:01:51 - 1:01:52)
And remember there's there.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (1:01:53 - 1:03:25)
Don't lie down on it. Yeah, there is that part. I can remember that.

You know, that was a good family story nowadays. But definitely that's all, man. That was a fun evening.

I'll say another second piece is opening up to your kids. Like there's just going to be maybe a different one, a different take on it. Opening up to your kids and letting it into your world is an amazing, amazing opportunity and moments.

And what I say is it can happen earlier than I thought. Like I kind of was like, oh, this happened later. This will happen later.

Like I can kind of just, it's always happening. You're always opening up to your kids. They're always seeing, right?

So realizing that you're doing that, realizing early on that there is this like when you're sharing, when you are reading to them, when you're choosing where you're going, whether it's you're choosing to go to the farm or you're choosing to go to the movies, whatever. So you're opening up your world to them and you're opening up the world for them, right? What is it you're doing?

So I would say there is this aspect of realizing that every moment that you're sharing with them is an opportunity for that. And then you get to choose that. You have a say again, kind of you're doing that.

That is so like, you know, it's I say it now, like it's opening up myself to them, but really is like, you know, you're opening you and through you, they're seeing the world. So that happens. Beautiful.

[Tony Cooper] (1:03:25 - 1:03:37)
That's beautiful. Wow. That's awesome.

Rodrigo, thank you so much for participating in this wonderful conversation. And I love you so much.

[Rodrigo Lagos] (1:03:38 - 1:04:00)
Hello, Tony. Thank you so much for this opportunity. It's just been so great to have a moment to recall, to share and spend time with you because I love this.

I love your kiddos. I love your family and you've been a huge part of us. So it's just, thank you so much.

Anytime, bring me up. We'll do it again.

[Tony Cooper] (1:04:01 - 1:04:02)
All right. Until next time.