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In this series we will discuss Contact Center industry trends and best practices, as well as sharing success stories and pain points with some of the most innovative professionals in the industry. Join us as we learn and grow together in order to provide world class customer service to each and every one of our clients.
Dave Hoekstra: Welcome to working
smarter presented by Calabrio, where
we discuss context center, industry
trends and best practices, as well
as sharing success stories and pain
points with some of the most innovative
professionals in the industry.
We're glad you're joining us.
To learn and grow together in order to
provide world class customer service
to each and every one of our clients.
My name is Dave Hoekstra, product
evangelist for Calabrio and my
guest today, I'm very excited
to welcome Bryce Ackerman.
Now Bryce and I have known
each other for a while.
Bryce is the workforce management
consultant at Roche Diagnostics
in beautiful Indianapolis.
And, bryce and I, like we've, like I
said, we've known each other for a little
while and we've gotten to know each other.
We've become pretty good friends our love
for all things Ted Lasso not withstanding.
And it's really exciting to have Bryce on.
Bryce, thanks for joining us today.
How are things in Indianapolis today?
Dave,
Bryce Ackerman: things are great.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I could say the pleasure is
all on this end of the table.
Thank you.
And I also want to say I
love the musical intro.
Was that ABBA?
Dave Hoekstra: It is not.
Believe it or not.
That's that's a custom composition
from my daughter's boyfriend.
So he's a bit of a music aficionado.
He was happy to provide me with that.
As a matter of fact, it's funny.
I was just talking to them
about this the other day.
He wants to redo it because he did
it when he was maybe 18 years old and
now he wants to completely redo it.
And he's he, you know how we all go
back and look at things in our career.
And we say, Oh my gosh,
that's so terrible.
Why did I ever put that out?
He feels like that.
Thanks for the compliment.
He'll be happy to hear it.
Bryce Ackerman: Hopefully he won't he
won't mind that I asked if it's ABBA.
I love ABBA.
Everybody loves ABBA, right?
Dave Hoekstra: Everybody loves ABBA.
The great Swedish band from
the Eurovision Song Contest?
Absolutely.
Everybody loves ABBA.
Bryce Ackerman: Dave, you're great.
So no, thank you.
Thanks, buddy.
No, I appreciate it.
It's an honor to be here.
You're great for the industry.
It's great.
You're doing this.
It's great.
You're on these podcasts and these
conference talks and these webinars
because of your personality and
your excitement about call center
stuff that many people just find
boring or workforce management.
There's all these introverts
that dig into the data.
You've got the passion.
I'm just excited to be here.
So thank you for what you
do and thanks for having me.
This is awesome.
Dave Hoekstra: Hey we're
glad to have you here too.
And I tell you what, if anyone says to
my face that call centers are boring,
they're gonna have a fight on their hands.
So that's I don't know what that
says about me and you, but you
know what, we'll roll with it.
Let's have some fun with this.
It's, I've
Bryce Ackerman: got an ongoing joke.
I've, I'm coming up this year is
my 30th year high school reunion.
And for all of you workforce math
majors out there, Do the math.
30 years, and there are a lot of people,
if I go to this thing, that I really
don't, I can't say I'm interested in
talking to, so when they ask me what
I do for a living, I'm just going to
tell them I work in a call center.
That's
Dave Hoekstra: right.
And move on.
And and so that's always where
I like to start with our guests
is going back in the history.
I love.
Finding out how people
got to where they are.
Roll with me a little bit.
How did Bryce end up
crunching Erlang numbers here?
What was the path that led you
down the workforce management
Bryce Ackerman: trail?
Yeah.
So I went to college and got a
dual major in forecasting and
scheduling and a minor in real time
analysis, like everybody else, right?
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
And call center you.
Bryce Ackerman: And then, my, my
plan, my life plan went exactly
how I expected to in college.
No, of course not.
I started like everybody else.
On the phones as an agent, but I
started as a, when I started as a call
center agent, it was a really good job.
I started as a travel
agent and this was 2001.
I was looking for a job and
the company was hiring, they
were looking for travel agents.
So we had, I was like 35
people in this training class.
I loved it.
I believe in travel.
I was fortunate as a kid.
I got to travel a lot.
I still travel.
So I was passionate about it.
And I think anybody who's in any
sort of sales job, they can say
that find something or people who
have failed at sales jobs, find
something that you believe in.
So I absolutely believed in travel.
My favorite thing was
selling all inclusives.
And I had this line, Dave,
you'll appreciate this.
I had this line, I had a customer
on the phone, and I'd ask them,
I'd say, What is it worth to you
to not have a worry in the world?
And I'd pause.
I love that.
And you could almost see them
smiling through the phone.
And for any of you that are
listening, that haven't been to
an all inclusive, it's amazing.
You don't have a worry in the world.
You truly don't.
And that's what I was selling, right?
You can go to an all inclusive.
If you want to sit on the beach and
read all day, if you want to sit
on your balcony and stare at the
ocean in Cancun all day, you can.
If you want to go to the pool bar and
make friends with everybody and do
drinking contests, you can do that.
And every, everything in between.
So I love the job.
Unfortunately, this was 2001.
September 11th happens.
And I remember going into the,
to the call center on an evening
shift, and there are probably 30
of us sitting around doing nothing.
And once in a while you'd
hear a phone ring or hear one
of the agents start talking.
And I took two calls the entire
day, September 11th, one was
somebody looking for a hotel room.
So that was easy.
And the other was a guy that
was pricing airline tickets from
Baltimore to Dallas, hoping to find
a good deal on airline tickets.
And I couldn't even fathom how somebody
could not only be shopping for an airline
ticket, but actually even consider flying.
And it was a crazy time.
Fortunately, travel back bounced back.
But it, in the call
center, we got phased out.
We were guaranteed jobs in other parts
of the call center, not in travel.
I ended up two years later in 2003,
there was an opening in real time
analysis and workforce management.
It just fit.
So finally got off the phones,
found something in real time and
workforce, and the rest is history.
And since then I've done.
Anything and everything in
between started, as I said,
in real time, scheduling,
capacity, planning, forecasting.
I've led big teams, small teams.
I've started teams in the back office.
I've started teams with the phones.
I've been a complete workforce
management nerd, and I could probably
say for the past 20 years, 20 years.
Dave Hoekstra: That's great.
That's awesome.
And that's what's always fun.
I always have to ask the question.
Was it because you liked Excel?
That seems to be, that seems to
be a very common theme as people
get into their WFM careers.
Bryce Ackerman: I think you quickly
figured out that Excel gives you answers.
It's a fun tool.
And I didn't really grow up using Excel,
but you learn how to use it as a job and
then it's wow, you, this is a good tool.
And you figure it out.
So you're exactly right.
If you're good in Excel, you find
that data part, that introverted
part of you that really enjoys it.
So yes, it was a good fit.
Dave Hoekstra: I would say,
honestly, Excel might be the greatest
program that has ever been created.
With the most far reaching
implications across, the entire world.
And, but, we can argue
that for another day.
I'll, maybe that's what I'll do my
TED Talk on is Excel the greatest
Greatest program ever created.
But tell me a little bit
about what you do today.
What is your role with Roche?
How do you guys manage through
and what are some of the things
that you guys do especially around
workforce management that might
make someone go, ah, I love that.
Yeah,
Bryce Ackerman: so I, I am a
workforce management internal
consultant for, so I work for Roche.
I was hired to do all
things workforce management.
We have a very small team that did not
have that workforce management experience.
So it was an awesome opportunity.
I can honestly say Roche is the
most supportive organization.
That I've ever worked for.
I might come up with a crazy idea
and then my boss will say, run
with it or see where it goes.
But as far as my role now, it's
all things workforce management.
It's forecasting.
I'm in the tele opti tool or the now the
new collateral tool all day, every day.
It's forecasting.
It's working closely with the
scheduler to make sure that works.
It's forming relationships
with IT operations.
This time of year, we're
going into budget season.
Now it's capacity planning time.
So I built the capacity planning
models in with a lovely Erlang.
In the model, right?
That's absolutely necessity that
we joke about Erlang, but it's
such a big part of our business.
So it's anything and everything.
I do workforce management related.
I've got that consultant
term or title to go with.
It gives me a little leeway to look into
other things as well, which I love to do.
I love thinking big picture.
I love thinking strategically.
I love talking to the I.
T.
People and thinking, thinking how
anything and everything we're doing.
Could affect workforce management.
So that's
Dave Hoekstra: kind of my role now.
Yeah, cool.
And one of the things that we've talked
a lot about you and I just as discussing
things and yes, people, we do sit around
and talk nerd stuff from time to time.
I'm not making this up, workforce
management has such a prominent role.
And the overall contact center experience.
And what's funny is, when I started
in workforce management, around the
same time you did, it was, we're the
command center and we rule from on high.
And, edicts come out and we, and, but.
Once the phone actually rings, the
workforce management role disappeared.
That was back then, and now
workforce management has such
a large role to play in that.
And so what I wanted to talk to you
is, looking from a customer experience
kind of standpoint, how critical
is WFM, what is the change that has
happened over the last 15, 20 years
that makes customer experience and
workforce management go hand in hand?
Bryce Ackerman: So I think that in a lot
of ways, the operations teams are ahead of
us and there are some workforce management
teams that are doing a good job and with
schedules, for example, and talking to
our frontline agents about schedules
and what they're willing to work.
And I think that's something where a
lot of us really need to improve on.
And I'll give you an example
is operations leaders.
They're good at reaching out to
their people, talking to their
people during the pandemic.
They really talked to them and
found out what was bothering
them or what was going well.
And they made it a point to do that.
Workforce management has always been a
challenge for me, reaching out to the
frontline staff, because every company
I've ever worked for, there's been this
rule, whether written or unwritten,
that The front line agents cannot
contact workforce management directly.
And think about that.
These call center agents are so important.
Without them, we don't have a job.
Workforce management,
schedulers, forecasters, capacity
planners, we don't have a job.
Finance, accounting, reporting.
Anybody who supports the contact
center doesn't have a job
without these frontline agents.
So it just shows how important they are.
And we need to do a better job at
bringing them into our conversations.
And workforce management's
often the schedules.
But I'll give you an example.
The first company I worked with,
worked for, we had a group called
Bridge Backups, which the bridge
was like a real time center.
Or like a bridge of a ship where
we would bring in real time backups
to assist when somebody was in real
time, was on a project or on vacation.
So people directly off the
phones would come in, learn
real time analysis, workforce
management, and they would assist.
And they were amazed at
first on how much we did.
And they'd say, I had no,
no idea what you guys did.
It's nice to see the big picture.
You can monitor all these call
queues and really see that.
And I think that was a really good
example of how we can bring in our
frontline agents to see what we
do to really start a conversation.
And I think it goes both ways.
As you had a company on
a webinar a while back.
With Calabrio talking about how every six
months, everybody in a support role has
to go and listen or sit with an agent,
a frontline agent and listen to calls.
And I thought it was a great idea because
that's something we lose sight of, right?
We forget where we came from
and it's so important and you're
going to guarantee learn something
sitting with that frontline agent.
But you're also going to gain their
appreciation and their understanding.
You're going to start a conversation.
So as far as none of us are going
to argue how important that is.
That ex is that employee
experience and the impact it's
going to have on CX, right?
The customer experience.
So I guess what I'm saying is we can
do better in workforce management
because oftentimes when a team of agents
come out of training, what typically
happens is a workforce management
person goes in, does a 45 minute.
Seminar or webinar, I should
say, on how to submit schedule
changes or how to request vacation
or sign up for overtime or BTO.
They're going to retain
about a third of it.
And then we tell them talk to your lead
or supervisor if you have any questions.
And we really cut them out.
So the challenges I think for workforce
management professionals, again, some
are doing this better than others.
We've all got a lot to learn
is how to bring them in.
How to just start those conversations,
and it could be as simple
as, look, this is what we do.
And I've seen it work really
well in organizations.
This is what we do now.
Show us what you do.
And if you can find that person in the
call center, that's that influencer.
Where that has a voice and bring
them in a really nice place to start.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, I used to do that
a lot with it was funny how I think
I realized the importance of taking
someone off the phones, even for an hour.
And showing them what goes on behind
the scenes, because those people go back
and then they go, you guys are going
to did you know that this and that, and
I remember my biggest fight though was
getting management to allow me to take
that person off the phone because you
have it's one person off the phone for an
hour and our service level is destroyed.
I'm like, guys, that's what I've been
trying to tell you for six months now.
We need a couple more people here, but.
That's not, that's neither here nor there.
But it was always amazing.
I think that eye opening moment of,
wow, this is what you guys do over here.
Like you're not just sitting there
clicking deny on my absence requests.
That's that's what people think
that we do a lot of times.
And the more you can open eyes
to that, it also, I think the key
thing for me has always been that.
They now understand why the answer has
to be no sometimes, or they understand
why schedules are built the way they are,
or they understand why we go into panic
mode when the calls in queue shoot up,
and there's nothing quite like having
an agent look at the real time screen.
And when they look at it and say,
where in the heck is so and why
isn't so and so on the phones?
You're like, see that's why we do that.
You're literally seeing in real time
why we go on the rampage and try to
find people and make sure that you're
doing what you're supposed to be doing.
And it's actually a
really fun thing to do.
The hard part for me has
always been trying to get that.
shadow program off the ground because,
management doesn't always see the
benefits sometimes, but that's our
job is to teach them how to do it.
And yeah, it's I think it's great.
And it's, if you guys are
doing that we recommend that.
Anybody out there listening, and it
doesn't have to be workforce management.
It can be QM.
It can be analytics.
It can be anything.
It literally doesn't have
to be contact centers.
If you had the ability to take
your frontline employees behind
the curtain a little bit, and let
them see how the machines work.
They're going to usually come back and
perform their job better because they
now understand the implications of what
they're doing and that's such a key part.
So I think that's great and love
that you guys are doing that and
you want to continue to do it and we
want to encourage others to do it.
Bryce Ackerman: Yeah, I think now
I think it's an excellent point.
I was just going to say you made a
you're right when you said to talk to
operations management and to get that
approved or talk them into it because
there's not always that ROI, right?
Or the they don't see the benefit.
They just see the impact
of the service level.
So I think that's where the challenge is.
And I once had a manager that told me to
get further in my career that I needed to
speak up more in meetings, but it's funny,
this meeting that he was referring to, it
was, you'd have all workforce management
in there and you'd have all of operations.
And it was typically the director
of operations and the director of
reporting and workforce management
talking the entire time, trying
to show how much they knew.
And the little people in the
room didn't get a chance to talk.
And what I didn't know at the time that
I didn't really understand that I just
saw it as, no, I'm not going to talk.
It's pointless.
It's just a couple of
big egos in this meeting.
What my boss was trying to tell me
was to form those relationships.
And those often come
outside of the meetings.
And it's more challenging
now because we are all.
For the most part virtual, but you
really have to make an effort now,
where in the past it might have been
easier to walk up to somebody's desk.
Now it's, let's talk.
Can you chat for five minutes or put time
on the calendar, talk to those operations
leaders and just start a conversation.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, it's exhausting
being remote all the time.
I'm remote all the time.
And the.
Level of effort that you have to put
forth to build those relationships
can be daunting at best sometimes.
And but you got to do
it, you have to do it.
And especially if you're in a situation
where, you're newer in, in what
you're doing hopefully you're not
running into people that are going
to stonewall you, but it does happen.
But sometimes you gotta
locate who, who's that person.
Who's that one that's going to get me
the in, who's going to really open up.
My door's here and yeah, I'm
tired just thinking about it.
But it does work.
Yes, being an extrovert that
works remotely is a unique set
of challenges all on its own.
When I do get into the office at
Collaboreo, everybody's slow it down,
Dave, relax just a minute here, because
I'm just so excited to see everybody
and I want to go talk to everybody.
They're like, we have
work to do, Dave, stop.
But that's neither here nor there.
I
Bryce Ackerman: think it's, I mentioned
you're an extrovert because in workforce
management, what would you say, 80
plus percent of us are introverts?
Dave Hoekstra: It's probably
a fair assessment, yeah.
Yeah,
Bryce Ackerman: it's, and
that's where the challenge is.
I'm an introvert.
But I make this joke that I took
that Myers Briggs test years ago.
I was right on the line, right?
But I'm on the introverted side.
I make this joke, one glass of wine, one
beer, Oh, and then it's all the way to
the other side, to the extroverted side.
But yeah, I'm the one that, especially in
the winter months, when it's gray in the
Midwest, I just want to read a book and
not be bothered and not talk to anybody.
So that's really a challenge.
And I know there's listeners out
there and workforce management.
Or quality who are reporting that are
those introverts and that is tough, right?
Because you have to push through it.
I'll give you a really
good book recommendation.
And it's called, actually two of
them, by an author called Seth Godin.
And one's called The Dip.
And the other, and we'll
start with The Dip first.
And basically, what he says
is we all start in jobs and we
start our job, we're hungry.
And we're curious as you like to
say, and we ask questions and we
we talk to people that have been
in a company for years and years.
And they're in something called
the dip that they can't get out of.
They just come in, do their jobs and
just go through the motions almost.
And he basically says the biggest,
the best, the brightest, the
CEOs push through that dip.
They made an effort.
To talk to people, to make contacts
internally, externally, to constantly
be making those those contacts
with people to learn, to constantly
be challenging them themselves.
And the other book he wrote is called
the linchpin, which is fantastic.
If there are any readers out there, it'll
slap you in your face and tell you need
to do more, you need to get involved,
you need to make those connections.
So both books are short to the point.
They're excellent for introverts
like myself who need a little
motivation to get out there and
really make those connections.
So it's, I would highly recommend
those books if you're a reader.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
So it was The Dip and the
Linchpin by Seth Godin?
Correct.
Got it.
G o d i n, if I'm not mistaken, it.
Yep.
Okay.
So great book reviews that definitely,
I saw your presentation at SWPP
where you mentioned those as well.
They're on my list.
Haven't gotten to them yet, but I'm
still working through my schlocky
science fiction novel at the moment.
We've all
Bryce Ackerman: got
our nerdy sides, right?
That's right, podcast, I totally get that.
Dave Hoekstra: Absolutely.
So what are the other
questions I wanted to ask you?
And you and I talked a
little bit about this.
is, over the course of the last 20
years, we've both had the opportunity
to see what kind of ideas spring
forth out of people when we're
talking about workforce management.
And one of those things is,
those myths those urban legends
about workforce management.
And so I'm interested from your
perspective what are some of the myths?
that you've seen that maybe need
to be disputed, and then what are
some of the myths that you see?
There's actually some
kernel of truth in there.
Bryce Ackerman: So I thought of one that
you are going to appreciate that's a myth,
and that is the software will run itself.
Dave Hoekstra: Don't even get me started.
Bryce Ackerman: What's funny, David?
It's something I think it's happened
in the past few years is with this
pandemic, something's happened with the
pandemic where people have gotten real
and gotten honest, and I've noticed just
from talking with vendors over the past
few years that now you hear that the
software is not going to run itself.
But that was a myth for so many years.
I have a job.
Because the software doesn't run itself.
So I appreciate that people
that have been in workforce
management, they know this, right?
But it has been a myth and myth for years.
It's starting to change.
Fortunately, for companies like
Collabrio that are saying, look,
you're going to need somebody to
either work with this, administer this.
You're going to need a data
analyst or some sort of analyst
to get the most out of it.
And that's come a long way.
And I think when you say, don't get
me started, I'm sure you've heard,
I can just guess where you've sold,
we've sold your software and it doesn't
run itself and people are frustrated.
And that's got to be tough because it
really does take a workforce person
or a data person to work with us.
Dave Hoekstra: It does.
And we.
As much as we'd love to tout, AI and
the different things, and there are
certain elements of that, that we want
it to, we want it to do things for us.
And unfortunately, so
here's the problem, right?
If you're running your workforce
management from an Excel
spreadsheet and you move to a.
A software solution.
There are so many things
it does do for you.
You're like, wow, this is amazing.
I think this is the best thing
I've ever seen in my life.
Look at how much less work I have to do
to get to the answers that used to take.
forever.
Sure.
And then there's the next level
of now that it's now we've
automated a ton of this stuff.
You mean to tell me I still
have to go in and do this work?
And, it usually there's almost like
a before and an after persona in, in
learning how to use a software solution,
and it's not just workforce management.
It's not just call centers.
It's, look at an iPhone.
It's like people who grow
up using an iPhone have this
expectation that it should.
But for those of us who grew up even
without cell phones and then moved to
the kind of the flip phone, it's Oh
my gosh, I think, I don't think you
appreciate what this amazing piece of
glass, plastic and silicone is doing for
us that we used to not be able to do.
And so there's a definite
kind of a awakening.
That happens.
So I think that's a great one, right?
The software does things and
it automates a lot, but there's
still that human element, right?
We talk about the art and
the science of forecasting.
We're still responsible
for the art part, right?
It's still what we're trying to do.
So that's a great
Bryce Ackerman: one.
Yeah, you talked on, when you were on
the WEWFM podcast, you talked about
that about how it's like a garden.
I thought it was, I thought it was
just a great great comparison how
you do have to nurture your garden.
Typical with a forecast or your
schedules or the software you're using,
Dave Hoekstra: it's absolutely necessary.
Yeah, there's so many great analogies
in the garden metaphor because,
you can, there's so many things.
Have you ever tried to do a garden?
It's really hard.
There's a lot of work.
Yeah, I know.
Just getting out there doing the Basics
is hard, but to do it really well,
it's Oh my gosh, there's a reason that
people go to college for this stuff
is because there's so much about it.
And I'm just over here trying to
make my yard grow in the summer.
And it's insane.
So that's why I like
that particular analogy.
It's great.
Bryce Ackerman: And I thought about
when you were talking about forecasting,
when I was at your conference
in the fall, Shane on your team
talked about, this is a great term.
I loved it.
He said, don't snorkel in the forecast.
And there were times where I found myself.
scuba diving in the forecast
because you can do it, right?
But that's not always the best way.
It's his point was find the way
for the software to work for you.
And I thought it made perfect sense.
And that's a challenge just getting
there because a collaborative
software like I would imagine any
software is not created for one exact
company with one very specific needs.
That's something I've learned.
And we could call it a myth as
well over the years is that not
every company is the same, right?
And you sure.
We are different and we have to make
the software work for ourselves.
And it's not always easy.
I also say the best part
and the worst part about a
contact center is all the data.
It's amazing, but then it's tough.
So just working through those myths
and working through all the data.
It's time.
What we do is not easy, but it's fun.
It's challenging and it's super rewarding.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
And I can't wait to see Shane's
LinkedIn where it says don't
snorkel in the forecast as the quote
underneath his underneath his picture.
That's awesome.
And I think that's a great analogy, right?
You gotta you have to learn
to embrace yourself, right?
Sometimes you have to
get your hands dirty.
Sometimes you're just not going to be
able to ride on high and then have all
the answers just appear in front of you.
And you talked in your session
at SWPP a lot about curiosity.
And I've talked about curiosity a lot.
And unfortunately, curiosity is not
necessarily something you can instill
in someone, but it's certainly a
trait that you can find in people
when it comes to what we do.
And, again, it doesn't matter if we're
talking WFM or we're talking about.
The a programmer or, someone who's trying
to build architect curiosity is just
an absolutely critical trait when it
comes to succeeding overall in business.
In my estimation, it's probably the
number one thing that I've found to,
that equates to a level of success.
Would you agree?
Bryce Ackerman: Yeah, I would agree.
The tough part for us introverts is
staying curious because we can all go
into a job like I talked about or Seth
Godin talked about the dip where we're
hungry and we're curious from the start.
And I like to say.
If you show up every week, like it's
your first week on the job then you're
curious because you're asking questions.
You're challenging the status quo.
You're pushing the envelope,
all that fun stuff, right?
Where you're making the job fun, but
you're showing you're showing your boss.
You're interested.
You're You're doing good things for
yourself, but you're doing great things
for your department, your company as well.
If you're staying curious, because
I think that's so important to
stay curious and to stay engaged.
So absolutely agree.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
If you have good leadership, the
best thing you can do is open
those doors that that, and I will
say I've seen bad situations where
you don't have good leadership.
Opening those doors can
cause you more problems.
And that's probably a reason
a lot of people get burned.
And don't show that initiative
later on in their careers
because they have been burned.
But if you can sit there
and say, you know what?
I think my boss is actually really
great and would be responsive to this.
Those are the kind of doors
that we recommend you open.
So it's
Bryce Ackerman: fortunately, sorry.
I know we got a little
sidetracked, but it's so fun.
I'm so passionate.
Like you are talking about
workforce management.
So the company I work for,
my boss is great because she
allows me to run with ideas.
And there's, I'm going to give you
another recommendation for a book for
any readers called Prime to Perform.
And I learned this from Nate Brown.
You had Nate Brown on a while back.
But Nate's that character who shows up
at the conferences with the crazy clothes
and the hat and the big red beard.
And he's, he had a really
good recommendation.
This book, Prime to Perform,
basically says that for all the
leaders out there, give your team...
Time to play and he wasn't, the
authors weren't talking about
the X Box in the break room.
Though I talked about this as well, this
company I worked for had an X Box in the
break room and it was amazing because
all my friends in workforce, we'd go out
and play on the X Box on every break.
And I guaranteed we were out of
schedule adherence because we were
playing more than our 15 minute break.
But that didn't make
us like our jobs more.
What they talk about in the book is
playtime is time to do more than just.
Schedule or just forecast
or just do real time.
It's pushing yourself to find things
that can influence all those things
that making connections with people or
contacts or building on that and doing
more, finding more challenging yourself,
challenging your company, challenging
your department that can absolutely
have an impact on workforce management.
So there's just huge opportunities.
And I think that's tough,
whether you're in quality or
workforce management or reporting.
Is to push through that every
day grind and find things.
Cause I guarantee you in workforce
management, you're going to find things.
Actually, every conversation
probably happening right now with
leadership or with it is going to
impact staffing, which means it's
going to impact workforce management.
So why not push yourself out there,
put yourself out there and get
involved in those conversations
Dave Hoekstra: and show people that.
It matters, right?
It teach people, educate
them why what we do matters.
Because if somebody asks you what
you do for a living, Bryce, do
you tell them you do workforce
management and contact center?
No, of course not.
Nobody knows what that is, right?
We have to explain it.
But when you work through
that, people go, huh, okay.
I didn't realize that was a thing,
but it sounds super important.
You're like, you're darn right it is.
That's exactly what I've been trying
to tell everybody for all my life.
It's super important.
You're exactly right.
Okay.
So I wanna try something new with you.
We're going to we're gonna, we're gonna,
we're gonna try something on the podcast
here that we haven't done before.
I'd like to call it the call
center lifer lightning round.
So we're gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna
throw some questions at you and answer in
as much as much or as little as you need
to, but we we like it Now, unfortunately,
you already stole the first question.
that I had, right?
Which is, but it's okay.
The first question was, have
you ever worn the headset?
And if so, what was your first agent job?
So we know the answer
to that question is yes.
And you were, you're trained as a
travel agent and that's fantastic.
And so that kind of leads to
the second question, right?
So what is your favorite KPI?
Bryce Ackerman: It was service
level, but you gave a great talk.
At the Society of Workforce Planning
Professionals, the SWPP, which
I thought was amazing, Dave, and
you talked about 80% versus 79%.
And the difference, 80% to be in
people's minds and 79% to see.
So I've come around.
It was I'm still trying
to find the new KPI.
That might be my favorite.
It's been service level for years, but I
think you really opened my eyes to that.
And I think it's important
for people to realize that.
And I don't know if you want to elaborate
a little, but you talked about how
nowadays that service level should be
used for staffing and not necessarily
scoring customer experience, right?
Dave Hoekstra: It worked great back in
the nineties and the early two thousands
when the only data we really had was how
long did it take us to answer the phone?
That to me was, that's basically,
that was the measure of customer
experience was, did we start the
inquiry fast enough for your liking?
It's no longer about that.
I've heard you talk about this is that,
I'll wait for an hour if it's really
important to me, and I don't care how long
it takes to get this question answered.
So it's really become much more about
what happens during the call than how
long it takes us to get to the call.
Service level is a really good
measure of did we prepare the center
for what, what needed to happen
to get the phone call answered.
Or the chat answered, but it
has no bearing whatsoever.
There was nothing quite like seeing
a report that says, yeah, we did
really well for service level over
the last, six months, but our stock
prices tanked because all of our
customer service agents are terrible.
That doesn't equate.
So it's okay.
You can have different KPI
Bryce Ackerman: favorites
coming around, right?
I got to figure out the next one, but I
even talked to my leadership team when
I came back from SWPP and we talked
about it about without, with all this
new AI software coming out there and
ways to measure the customer experience
is service level really the best.
So I think we're all adapting
or thinking through it, but I
think it was a really good talk.
I'm glad you brought it up, and I
think it definitely had an impact.
Good.
All
Dave Hoekstra: So putting the
lightning back in the lightning round.
What was the moment that, what
was the moment that you said in
this, your career, I like this.
This is
Bryce Ackerman: good.
The easy answer is as soon
as I got off the phones,
Dave Hoekstra: Hey, that's all it takes.
Bryce Ackerman: That's the easy answer.
When it's like you're sitting
down as analyze some data.
And that was fun, right?
Like, all right what the heck is
happening here and analyzing some data.
But I talked about it earlier is
with my current company is Roche
and just and I'm allowed that play
time and allowed to do things.
Things are fun now.
And things haven't always been fun,
but Dave when we were at customer
contact week a year ago and you look
through all this stuff that's happening
and the craziness, that's another
point where I just realized the whole
world is blowing up and this is fun.
The potential for contact
centers is absolutely amazing.
So early on, yes.
But now I'm in this zone where the job is
just fun because of everything happening.
Dave Hoekstra: Okay.
Here's the next, here's
the bummer question.
What's the biggest mistake
that you've made in your career
that others can learn from?
Bryce Ackerman: Oh no one
had time to walk away.
And I'll tell you a story.
Cause this has happened to me a
couple of times is I was working for
a company that I was very loyal to.
I was so loyal to that I left the company
for nine months and went back to them.
And I brought in a priority
skilling to a back office team.
And we had an ROI that was in the
millions and millions of dollars.
And it was a hugely successful pilot.
And we wanted to implement it, or at
least my team wanted to implement it
again, millions of dollars in savings.
And we absolutely got resistance every
step of the way from operations from
the lowest level supervisor up to the
highest level of the organization, even
though there is a huge ROI and potential
with that priority skilling a piece.
And then I think it was six
months later, I got laid off.
We had merged with another company.
And that would be what I would say
is be aware of your surroundings,
see what's happening, find a company
that will absolutely appreciate you.
So that's my tip is just step back
for a minute, analyze the situation
as any good workforce person does,
and don't be afraid to walk away
and know when it's time to leave.
And especially in this day and
age with everybody, many people, I
should say working remotely, there
are tons of opportunities out there.
Dave Hoekstra: Fantastic.
Okay, what, now we'll end on a positive.
The last question in the lightning round,
who's the, who is the person that has had
the most positive impact on your career?
Bryce Ackerman: I think there
have been many, but I once
worked for a vice president.
I was at this company for a very
small time and she challenged me.
without telling me what to do.
And a couple of examples is
or I had to manage she told
me I had to manage a project.
I was on the job about two weeks
and I need you to be the workforce
management expert and I also
need you to manage a project.
Which is bring on a third party BPO or
a third party vendor and I never really
managed a project before So I show up
at the meeting and she's like great.
What's your Where's your project plan?
And I didn't know what a project plan was.
Where's
Dave Hoekstra: your Gantt chart?
Bryce Ackerman: Exactly.
I learned very fast.
I did not fake it till I made it which I
hate that term No, I went out there and
I Googled it, how to manage a project.
I was watching YouTube videos.
I was talking to a project
manager on the team to learn how
to properly manage a project.
And then nine months
later we met the deadline.
We met the goal on budget and successfully
brought that project in on deadline.
So what I would say is she was
probably the most influential because
she challenged me and forced me.
to learn without just
telling me what to do.
And that was
Dave Hoekstra: huge.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And that's great.
That's why I like to ask that
question because there's always
those kind of those linchpin moments
that that, that keep us going.
All right.
So my part is officially done.
Now you said you had a couple of
questions you wanted to throw at me
and I want to give you the opportunity.
I'll, I would be a poor podcast host if I
didn't give my guests what they asked for.
So
Bryce Ackerman: first, I didn't
get a chance to congratulate you on
your win at customer contact week.
So congrats to you and collaborate.
Yes,
Dave Hoekstra: thank you.
We won the workforce innovator of
the year award, which is great.
Like when it's nice when you try
to do something in that space
and it actually gets recognized.
So thank you.
Bryce Ackerman: Absolutely.
Yeah.
One of our sister companies,
Genentech won the award for their
channel ops department, won the
award for small call center.
So it's a nice, it's a nice award.
So congratulations to you.
Congratulations to Genentech.
Sorry.
I just thought of that.
So I saw Calabrio come up
multiple times on LinkedIn.
So I'm really happy for you guys.
Also podcasts, what do you listen
to when you're not listening to
yourself on your own podcast?
What do you like to do or
what do you like to listen to?
Dave Hoekstra: So I, my favorite
podcast is a podcast done by
Dana Carvey and David Spade.
It's called Fly on the Wall, and
they basically invite people in
and around the Saturday Night Live
universe and talk to them, right?
And I have loved Saturday Night Live
since so long as I can remember going
back to the very early days, everybody
has their favorite cast in SNL and mine
was the right when Mike Myers and Dana
Carvey were at their peak with Wayne's
World and the church lady and that era
right as Adam Sandler started to come in.
And yeah, that's, the huge part of
my life, and so they have fantastic
guests and they come and they talk
about SNL and they do that a lot.
I, it's funny because I work from
home, I don't get as much podcast time
as I think a lot of other people do.
I don't get a ton of time to sit
around and listen to podcasts.
To be honest.
If I'm being perfectly, most of the
podcasts I listen to are just replays
of the segments from my local sports
radio station where they talk about the
Cowboys and the Rangers and the stars.
But from an educational standpoint,
I do try to listen to there's
a couple of marketing style
podcasts that are out there.
I'd be remiss in telling you the name
because I don't have them off the
top of my head, but it's mostly just.
SNL and sports talk radio, if
I'm being perfectly honest.
Bryce Ackerman: No, thanks for sharing.
And it's, I totally know it can
relate to what you're saying.
When you are working from home, you
don't have that drive time, right?
Dave Hoekstra: No, I don't.
I barely drive the car ever.
Bryce Ackerman: Sure.
Okay.
I've got one more.
And it's, you're going to have to
be a bit vulnerable here maybe.
Alright, please.
You and I were talking a while back and
you told me your father passed away.
My father passed away as
well about ten years ago.
So I was thinking about that
and our parents leave something
to us, often good and bad.
But I want you to think about something
good that your father either left you or
a message or a time that you can think
back to that really had a good influence
on you or positive influence on you and
wondered if you could share that, whether
he tells you something or did something by
Dave Hoekstra: example.
What a great question.
What's interesting, for those of
you that might not be aware, my role
at Collabrio is product evangelist.
And my dad was an actual
preacher back in many years ago.
And I spent more time in church
from the age of zero to 10 than most
people have in their entire lives.
We lived in the parsonage.
Next door to the church I had to go
to, I was at the church every day for
various reasons, whether it was the
youth activities and things like that.
And the one thing that I got to
do is watch my dad preach a lot.
And.
His, I can promise you, when you see
me up giving a presentation or on
stage talking all of my mannerisms, my
cadence, my presentation style, every
the pauses, the breath between the
words, that all comes from my father.
Watching him...
Watching him preach the very calm
demeanor and what's really funny
is I don't think I realized it
until I was in my mid thirties.
I didn't realize that I emulate my
dad when it comes to my presentation
style and things like that.
And his ability to To draw you in with
the spoken word and leave you just in
the right position to hear the next
message and the next piece of information.
So I definitely from what he
left in his impression on me.
Has a strong impact in the presentation
style that, that I work through.
And in, in many ways that I very
much emulate my father when it
comes to that presentation style.
Just know that if you see me speaking
in front of a crowd of people, that
you're getting a good impression
of exactly how my dad did things as
Bryce Ackerman: well.
Thanks for sharing Dave.
I think that there's many of us
out there that think you have
the coolest job in the industry.
Dave Hoekstra: I do.
And I love my job and I get to talk
to awesome people like you, Bryce.
And it sometimes doesn't feel like work.
Let's just be honest.
But I put in my time we've all had
our our moments where we feel like
we're sweating it out in the minds.
It's it's, it's a great industry to be in.
It's a wonderful organization like
Collabrio that really supports doing
things like this to externalize the
message and, yeah, like I said, I get to
work with awesome people like you and the
team at Roche and it's really amazing.
So thank you for the wonderful questions.
I do appreciate it very much.
So I think we have covered all
of the main things that I really
wanted to talk to you about.
And so let me be the first
to say to you, Bryce.
Thank you very much for joining us
here on the working smarter podcast.
It's always, it's awesome to get to talk
to people that know what they're doing.
We'll know what they're talking about.
And I really do appreciate
you spending some time with
Bryce Ackerman: us and are
passionate about, so thank you, Dave.
Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.
So from me from the team here
at Collabrio, thank you guys
for spending some time with us.
We had.
Good episode.
This is going to be great.
I can't wait to get it out there.
As always if you have the, if you have
the idea that you'd love to be on the
Colabrio podcast, send me a note dave.
hookstra.
com or just email marketing at colabrio.
com and let them know you'd like
to be on the Colabrio podcast.
We're always looking for the
next great, we're not, we're
always looking for the next Bryce
Ackerman to join us on the podcast.
From me and the Collabio team, a huge
thank you to our listeners and our
group that's out there and Bryce,
once again thanks for joining us.
What I always like to do is
give our guests the last word.
So the floor is yours.
Let us know whether it's a piece
of advice or just in something in
general let us know what's going on.
Bryce Ackerman: Oh, wow.
The general, okay, I'll
give you one more tip.
And that is find a friend at work
that you can bounce ideas off of.
And I think that's so important,
especially as we're mostly
virtual, is to be able to
collaborate or talk with somebody.
The work we do is often not easy,
especially if you're on a small team.
So find a friend, make a friend,
bounce ideas off that person.
And it's only going to help you.
That person, your
department and your whole
Dave Hoekstra: company.
Wonderful.
All right, Bryce.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Everybody else out there.
Have a great rest of your day.
Have a great rest of your week.
Stay cool during the summer here
in the, in North America and for
the rest of you in the world.
We'll be looking forward
to seeing you more.
Once again, call me if you want to be
on the podcast, I'd love to hear from
you, but from us at the Collaborative
team, thank you guys and keep out there.
Keep working smarter.
Thanks everybody.
Talk to you soon.