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This episode covers the shame trigger of sex. Samantha talks with Sex Therapist Ashley Grubbs about how to discover desire in your sexual relationship. Pleasure can be found for both genders when it comes to sex, but you have to figure out how to find more "yes's" than "no's." Listen in as Samantha and Ashley "Flush It Out!"
Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.
Ashley Grubbs 0:00
I did a consult on Friday, I always do consults Monday and Friday. So I don't work with a woman who is going through cancer treatment and already didn't like love her body before and is really concerned about like, now I don't, you know, I don't have breasts anymore. It's totally different. What's my sex life gonna look like now and my body image is already terrible. And she told me how she was talking with her husband and her husband was saying, like, this is very unique to us. Like other people don't have this problem. Like, we're the only married couple not enjoying our sex life. And you know, she's telling me like, you know, isn't this crazy, that's what's happening to me. And I told her, I will never not have a job. Like every client that comes and goes and is in a good place and doesn't need me to help them rebuild. There's another one immediately in the weeds, like waiting to take that spot. Like, this isn't weird. It's obnoxious. Yo, we just think it is because no one wants to talk about like, why don't I want to have sex with my partner trauma or not? You know, no one's talking about sex, or intimacy, or you know, what happens behind closed doors in a variety of situations, not just sex. But, you know, in general, and that's what I think is super interesting that when people start talking about it, like you experienced, right, like the second someone who's willing to say, this, one thing happened to me, it's 2000 people saying, Oh, me, too. You know, that's what I think is super cool.
Samantha Spittle 1:22
Well, that is a perfect intro to today's episode. So yeah, there's all these conversations around this that people aren't talking about?
Ashley Grubbs 1:28
Yeah, I tell my clients, you have to talk about it before you can have it. Like that's always the first thing we're doing is working on how are we talking about sex with our partner, not working on? How are we having sex with our partner, because if you can't, if we can't talk about it, if it can't be like a place of comfort, we're never going to be able to get our needs met on any side of the equation, you know what I mean? And so my first vacation I took with Alex as my husband, our first vacation, together, we went to the Bahamas, and I was already a sex therapist, like Alex knew when he started dating me, this was the career I was going to be in. And so I'm very comfortable, like saying penis revolve are talking about, like different types of sex or intercourse or intimacy is very normal for me. And so that like painted a picture in his head of what kind of person that was going to make me from a sexual perspective. Because he didn't know any other women that were cool talking about it. And we had a really big fight in the Bahamas, because he expected like a week away from work for both of us, meant we were going to have sex every day. And to me, it was a week away from work, I just want to like sit and breeze, air, you know, like, it's not a that's not something that's going to rank, but that we weren't talking about what our expectations were what frequency was. And so when we were in this beautiful space, like really enjoying our time, he was like, What the heck is happening? You know, like, why is this only once every three days or every other day or whatever? When for me, it was why would you assume that seven out of seven days, that's gonna be what I want. I want that. So it's like you said, having the conversation about like, what does this mean for us? What do we want this to look like, within our relationship? Because most people are just going to make an assumption and move forward with that. Like, even my husband who knew better like knowing this is what I talked about. He still did the same thing. I was like, tell the client not to, you know?
Samantha Spittle 3:13
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so perfect. Because you look at it like, Okay, we need to normalize the conversation. So for today's conversation, you know, we're looking at a stereotypical monogamous, committed couple to each other. Of course, this might look different to each and every person but just for the sake of today, and try instead of trying to cover all the different things we're kind of looking at, okay, couples, and today guest sex therapist, Ashley Grubbs. So I'm gonna let you introduce yourself. And also give me the correct term because I don't know if that's the correct way to say it. So
Ashley Grubbs 3:47
it is the correct way. So I'm an LPC, which means Licensed Professional Counselor and Texas, Colorado, Virginia and Maryland. And I specialize in sex therapy and neurodivergent relationships. Awesome.
Samantha Spittle 4:02
I'm excited to continue this month's shame trigger of sex. And the reason I think, you know, there's many different reasons that it causes shame and whatnot. But a big one is there's so much that happens, you know, obviously, whether when you're in a relationship with someone, sex is a part of it. It's awkward to talk about not only publicly or with people or whatnot, but even within your partner. And then there's all these things that go on or don't go on that then no one talks about, because, you know, it's intimate and we're not supposed to, but yet, everything's supposed to be great. There's just a lot there. So for today, I would love to kind of start out with, as you said, the thing you talk about with your clients first off is how do they say yes? How do you say no? How do you approach it? So I think that's a great way is like, let's first kind of put some boundaries in place, and then we can jump into kind of just this whole idea of desire within the marriage because a big You know, there's that whole frequency talk and who wants it? And then of course, you get into the stereotypes of that. It's mainly for the men and the women are just checking the block and chugging along. And so, you know, here's a mind blowing, what if both people enjoy it? So, I would love to have you start, as you said, the way you start with your clients, and your biggest piece of advice for you even jumped down?
Ashley Grubbs 5:22
Yeah, where we always start is how do you want to be approached? And how do you want to hear no, because if we're not talking about it, and we're not feeling good, or approaching our partner with sex needs, the sex we're having is going to be garbage, you know, like, it's just not going to get any better. We can't talk about it. And so I have all of my clients one at a time determine, what do you want initiation to look like? Most people have never been explicitly taught or even like acknowledged in their own body? What do I like versus what do I don't like, not when sex is on the table right now when we're naked and already in bed, or on the couch or in the car, or wherever you're having it, but before that, so I tell my clients all the time, like all day, foreplay is the thing. So you want to be like in the mood, doing whatever you can to really increase that bond. Even if that doesn't mean sex is happening, you want to do something that's drawing your partner towards you. And part of that is knowing how are we initiating the actual act? So some people especially like I said, I see a lot of neurodivergent clients are like ADHD, autistic, etc. Some of them prefer very explicit, like, do you want to have sex now, I would like to have sex now, like, some people are really into that, versus some people, if you approach them and said, Hey, I want to have sex. Now, it would be like a disgust response, like to blend too quick, not enough warm up period. And so we're just going to totally shut down. And so if you have someone explicitly telling you like, this is what I would like to do, and your brain is still thinking about work, or the kids or whatever, like, we're never going, we're never going to get there. Right? And so I have them talk about with each other, like, do you like physical touch? If so, what kind of physical touch because we can't just say straight up, I like it when you touch me. Because then you'll think your partner's initiating every time they give you a kiss on the cheek to go to work, you know, like, it has to be very explicit, like, what what do you like? What about being approached is meaningful for you, the words, the conversation, the feeling, whatever, and your partner needs to know that, that tends to be the easier one for most people is, here's how I want you to approach me instead of however, you've been approaching me before, but the know is a little more complicated. And really, the knows probably the more important of the two to some degree, because it's like, it's kind of silly to assume you'll always be in a yes place at the same time, like, it's just not going to happen. So the partner hearing the note gets to pick this. So again, some people like very explicit, like, No, I don't want to right now. And that's totally fine. Some people like to hear a Reason No, I don't want to, because I'm still mentally thinking about work. You know, like a little bit easier, we'll get down some people prefer some people again, don't want it to be verbal, it would just be like a kiss on the cheek and walk walking away works. But having this really explicit conversation of what words are you choosing, and why are we choosing those words? And what message am I receiving from those words, is really, really impactful. Especially if it's, like the stereotypical high sex drive partner. So like, with me and my husband, he has a higher sex drive than me, he'd be very cool with me saying that. And so if I approached him, he likes it explicit. So I would explicitly say, Do you want to have sex? Now? That's how my husband prefers to hear information. He would say yes or no, we would move on whatever. If I asked for that. And he said, No, and then just got up and walked away, I'm going to be very hurt, even though I know he is a very black and white to the point, kind of person. Like that's just who he is. He would never intend to hurt my feelings. But because I don't hear no, very often, and that's very abrupt. Like, we're gonna have an issue that's not about sex. Like now my feelings are hurt. Now, I feel unwanted. Like, what about me is a no right now. You know what I mean? So being explicit and talking about how do we want to hear these things? How do we want to be approached? And how do we want to be turned down eliminates the kind of superfluous issues that come from like, when I just think you're not into me? And so now, I don't want to talk to you for a few days, or like, I want you to sleep somewhere else? Or, you know, like, are we in a bad spot when really one of you just didn't feel like having sex right then.
Samantha Spittle 9:28
That's great insight. Thank you, Ashley. Um, so there's the reasons so you go through and it's like, so I love you know, okay, let's start out we've got this nice, we're framing it we have these boundaries around initiation and saying no, but then with the reasons we say no, okay, it could literally be like, I have a headache. Or, you know, I'm just not that into it. But what about when it's when it is a desire thing? And it is like yeah, I don't not want to have sex like so. Yeah, I'm willing too, because to check the block and things like that, but if you really peel back the layers, it's like, I mean, you could say, so like, I'm being touched all day. I'm this, like, there's all these reasons which are, of course, totally valid. The question is, you know, how can women work towards having more desire so they can play a more active role in their sex life?
Ashley Grubbs 10:19
Yeah, I think a really, really big part of the narrative is sex isn't about women. And that's not a complaint on men. I'm married to a man, he is a great human, of course, I would choose him again, society still kind of skews it towards one of two ways, right? So either you're like, this huge sex goddess. And that's all you ever want to do. And you're super into it, in which case, a lot of times, what I would expect to see you there is people thinking you don't have any boundaries, which is still going to impact your desire, right? If other people aren't respectful of what you're into, and not into cool, why would you want to have sex with them? Or the other way, which is that you're not supposed to be sexual whatsoever? And both of those kinds of people at some point might get married? And then what are you doing now that we're married, and that's a totally different type of narrative, right? Like you're supposed to be your partner's needs, you're supposed to be into it. All these kinds of things, which really sends the message to women that, like sex isn't for you. And so what I asked people super, super often is what determines the end of sex? So like, you don't have to tell me yours? Of course, obviously, but like, how do you know sex for you is over, right? Like when people chew on it for a minute. Usually, it's when the man has orgasms, and it's done like 99% of the time, that's going to be the answer I get is like, Oh, my partner comes and we're finished. And we move on, like, it's never going to be very rarely not never going to be like when we both feel like it's done, or when I feel ready to, to end it or when I want to move to something else. Like that's not it. Like even in a movie or TV show or book, that's still going to be where we denote sexist finished. It's all about like the penis owner, the man in the situation. And I think that's already starting women kind of a crappy spot that now we have, we already have this internalized message that we get so young, like eight, nine or 10, you're starting to already kind of get the message about what your role is. And then, like you and I talked about earlier, if we bring in religion, or like beliefs within your family of origin, you could be even further and further back from it being about you. Yeah, now we have to overcome, like society is saying like you don't, it's not really about your enjoyment. Maybe your partner is saying that, right? Maybe the focus has never been on your enjoyment, whether that's explicit, implicit, whatever. And a lot of women don't know what brings them pleasure. And so when we're adding all of those things, it's the same as like, my least favorite chore is vacuuming. I would rather do anything than vacuum my house, anything. Like that's not implicitly enjoyable. For me. It's a waste of time, it needs to be done, but it's kind of annoying. And that starts to be where sex gets lumped in to is like, this is a chore. I'm doing it once a week because it needs to be done once a week like maintenance sex is what I'm going to see here a lot. Because like this is just a thing we do that I'm not actually interested in. I just need to keep moving forward until like, women are having a good time you're not going to orgasm your pleasure is out the window like why would we want to keep moving forward? So that's probably the number one factor I see when it comes to not having desire is no one has taught you what having a desire can be.
Samantha Spittle 13:26
Okay, so how do we start digging into that then?
Ashley Grubbs 13:30
Part of that is figuring out what you like. So partner, no partner, it doesn't really matter. You know, what the sexuality of gender or have your partners it's what feels good to you. So for a lot of people, this is like exploring your own body. This can be masturbation, but it doesn't have to be. It's just figuring out like what touch feels good. So like, why do you gravitate towards your favorite shirt? Is it like you like how it feels? Is it the material like what feels good? versus what's something you would never wear? Like I don't really like corduroy, I think it's really scratchy. So like that kind of texture wouldn't work. That's not something meaningful. You might like lighter touch, or firmer touch. Like what about your partner do you enjoy in the first place? Like how are we bringing more of those things in to play with ourself and existing as like whole humans with or without a partner, and then translating that into what sex with a partner is. So it's a lot a metaphor my clients to hear me use a lot that I did not come up with. I stole this from Emily to go ski who's way smarter than me on this topic, is the concept of brakes and accelerators. So 24/7 Everything in your entire life is going to fall into either green a brake or an accelerator when it comes to your sex drive. And these things do not have to be sexual. Right? So if you have a bad night's sleep, I don't care who you are. That's a break. Doesn't have to be anything sex related whatsoever. It could be like, your dog was barking or your baby was crying or for whatever reason the temperature wasn't right like because that's a huge break for your sex. Life versus your partner was really loving, and very kind to you that might be an accelerator, even if their goal was not to have sex with you either. And so being able to determine like any 24 hour span, what's happened, that's been a break on your sex drive, and what happened that's been an accelerator on your sex drive is super, super important in the starting place. So you know, like, picture your car, if you're a person who sits heavy on the brake, you just wake up in the morning, and by default, you're a person who's on the brake, cool, there's nothing wrong with being a brake sensitive person. But if you also try to slam on the accelerator, like in your actual vehicle, when you have your foot on the brake, you're still not going to move anywhere, you know. So it's not about just adding more accelerators, it's are we also taking things off the brake, right, whether that's via communication, or stress management, or whatever. So that way, when we do have some pressure on the accelerator, we can actually start to move again. Right. So that's like a really, really good starting place, I would tell women is like, figure out for you, what's contributing to where you're sitting, and then we can make a game plan about how do we want to fix it or change it?
Samantha Spittle 16:05
That is a great analogy. And I'm also going to give you credit for your analogies though, with the clothes because my next question or area I want to dive into is, all right, the way we start tackling I mean, with sex, we have to normalize the conversation around sex, we have to say the words and, you know, figure out our own stories and what makes us uncomfortable and comfortable. And then the next thing is okay, you say, with our desire, well, we have to start exploring it. And I felt myself immediately as you were talking, it's like, I think I'm this open minded person, but like, I have all my own crap, too. And I'm already like, oh, gosh, whoa, that, like what you do. I mean, that's like the dramatic version of what's in my head. And so I know, I'm not alone. And so when you switched the analogies of the clothes, it felt so much safer, because of course, all that sex shame was quieted down because you were just talking about safe clothes. And it makes so much sense. You're like, you're right, why do I like the way this fits? Why do I like, you know, don't like the way this fits. And so I in live time, as you were talking was experiencing that whole shame around sex and desire and pleasure. I mean, all those words. And so, women here like, Okay, I have to figure it out. It's almost like you're going to the next level, you go through one door, and now you hit another and you're like, wait, no, but like, if you've grown up that, like sex is bad. And you, you shouldn't, you know, have this, you spend so many years. If you're especially with a purity culture, it's like you spent so many years pushing it down. And then suddenly, oh, I'm just gonna flip the switch. And now I'm this sexual, as the 90s kids will remember a lady in the streets, but a freak in the sheets. You know, boom, we just do that. And so if someone you know, so we're looking at, we want to discover this desire, but now I've got this next. Shame trap almost waiting for me. Right? How do you work through that?
Ashley Grubbs 18:05
Well, your word choice is super, super important. So you said it makes you feel safe. You didn't say it makes you feel comfortable? And then that's a really key difference. Sec should always be safe. Always. Always Always. It should always be consensual should always be on your terms. Like that is the hill I will die on until all of my clients gender sexuality are irrelevant. Like if you're not an enthusiastic Yes, it is a hard no the end like that's the role to play by. That does not include comfort, though. Right? So like if you're including purity cultures are excellent, super great example of this, like I'm from the south, I'm from Texas. That's why I became a sex therapist is 0% of people minus my mom who's like a cool lady props to her. No one else was talking about sex and ever anywhere, right? Nowhere was it a thing. So it would be more comfortable for me to not think about it or talk about it. Especially if you add in that purity culture piece like religion says, This isn't a thing I'm supposed to even want. It is comfortable to think that I don't want it. Right. So like, even if it's not true, even if that's not who you actually are. When you learn something so deep, that is comfortable, even if it sucks and you hate it. And it's not actually a good thing. Comfort is really appealing to cling to something that like, feel soft and warm. And at least I know what to expect. That's what I hear all the time, like, well, at least if it goes like this, if I'm not into it, and I'm just doing it for the sake of my partner. I know how it ends, I know what's going to happen. I know what I have to do to get them off. That's all comfortable, but it's not necessarily safe. Right? Like we're not invested in it. Our body's not part of the experience. Like we're thinking about, you know, do we have to vacuum after like, it's my take gonna get worse and I have to have my least favorite things back to back. Like safety isn't included. If we're not living in our own body. It's just comfortable. Does that make sense? And I think we have to look at like if you're wearing comfy clothes that can be safe and comfortable. So how do we make sex both safe and comfortable? Not just one or the other?
Samantha Spittle 20:04
Yes, that's exactly. That is brilliant. Like, and I think that's with why it's so hard to talk about in marriages. Because it's, you know, and it's also it's almost like it's hard to say, well, it's not like it's unsafe, you know, if you're let's, you know, as you said, the consent the hills, you'll die on all the same things. Ditto. So we're not talking about an unsafe, unsafe as far as, like an abusive, manipulative thing, right. There's people, they do still feel safe in their marriage. You know, there's no, I don't feel like it's an unsafe thing. And it's comfortable. I know, all the I know, the routine bah, bah, bah. So I guess that's why I'd like to, I just want to continue down this this road, because it's like, well, what do you mean, I don't feel safe. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel like I'm being forced or anything. But that enthusiastic? Yes. I mean, I think women can relate to that. Like, if we just pause for a second and say, you know, women listening or men, like, everyone knows there's the enthusiastic Yes. And there's the Okay, fine. But it does, but it's I would say I think, like, but I don't feel unsafe, though.
Ashley Grubbs 21:23
Yeah. But when I would say if someone has both right, like, again, doesn't sound like you hate your husband, I don't hate my husband. But like, maybe I'm not always feeling it. And then you're looking for variety until you do. So, like we talked about changing the time. So like, if you're always having sex at night, can we change up the time, like, does something there spark desire for you more, or changing the location? That's the second one. So if you always have sex in your bedroom, granted, there are limitations. Of course, like if you have kids, if you live with your parents, if, like, it's not a place in which like you want to leave your bedroom, that's totally cool. But can you have sex at the flip? So where your head is usually where your feet are, you know, like, can we still work with the space that we're given. And then the third part is changing the position like that was pretty explicit, don't have to give a lot of example there. But if you're having the same sex all the time, like for plays, always acts, penetrative sex is always why or there's always penetrative sex, because sex without penetration, like still gets to count, right, of course. But if it's always the same thing, that's where we start to over rely on comfort, right? And so like, we're not necessarily getting something that speaks to us or that feels good, or is a celebration of our bodies, or our relationship or the passion that we feel for each other. Because it's like, this is just what we do. You know what I mean? Like, this is just the way sex goes, it starts to be kind of boring or feeling monotonous. Like there's nothing like why do I want to keep doing this, then I would say like, if we have safety and comfort, let's add variety. That's like the third, the next piece I would look for, you know, like, in order to keep keep that momentum going. That's good.
Samantha Spittle 22:59
Okay, so we've got kind of our desire ways to increase our desire. So you're looking with couples, you know, I know, we talked about before, before we started about, you know, body image being more common in younger women that see you. But there's definitely you know, you when you've been married 20 years, your bodies are changing, you're getting older things are different. How do you know if that impacts our desire? How do you kind of walk through that?
Ashley Grubbs 23:31
It's kind of depends on if it's something sudden, or more subtle, right? So like, as you continue to age of course, there's going to be some health issues that come along with that. So using my my parents as an example, not that I know about their sex life with nor would either of them want me to, of course, but my dad had prostate cancer last year and had to have his prostate removed. That's not stereotypically something like someone who sees themselves as a manly man, like my dad does. My dad, you know, was really good with his hand and he's very outgoing, and really wants to be a provider for my mom and for the family. Like that was part of his self identity. And then you lose a piece that to him and to him to a lot of males, right. This is a part of what, like a masculine person is what being able to be a sexual being is right. And again, I don't know how my parents worked it out confident that they did, but now it's what do we do when body images in there like do I feel uncomfortable? Are you not going to like how I look when I don't look how I did the entire length of our relationship. And so it's a lot of safe exploration. So this can be like where sensate play comes in and you can be totally closed you don't have to be naked. You don't have to do anything uncomfortable but exploring your body with your partner and hearing what they like. Right and then also hearing what you like and bigger than body image. I think like when we're sexual beings and we've been with someone for a really long time, what we like is going to ebb and flow. You know, like you might always like one kind kind of thing, like, what kind of sex position and then you get pregnant. And perhaps that position is really uncomfortable when you know you're growing this watermelon in your belly. And so we have to switch to something else, that's going to impact your body image too. And so when we're able to look at it and say, like, my body is changing, and I don't know how I how I feel in it, or if I like it much less, how do you feel about it? Do you still like it. So really opening up that vulnerability with our partner and exploring like your touch here feels really good. Even if you're just rubbing my elbow, which to me is like, that's not super sexual. It's not a sexy part of my body, no judgement to other people. But that's not a part I would feel sexual seen in the mirror. But if that kind of touch feels good, exploring that I can still get pleasure, I can still get joy and connections through a body that I'm not quite sure as mine still, you know. And so sometimes over focusing on what's going on with your body and trying to fix quote, unquote, the body image doesn't necessarily have to be the step you're taking when sex is involved. Or sometimes it's just better to explore the uncertainty with someone who makes us feel good. Yeah. There's a particular type of sex therapy called sensate focus therapy works or doesn't work about 50%. But it's all about and like sensory liens without having actual sex. So it's exploring like, do I like the way a feather feels? My really turned on by an ice cube. So really focusing not what on what your body looks like, but what is it providing for you, which is like information about the world around you. So like, do you like to have sex with the lights on or off? Not because of how your partner is viewing you? But how do you feel in the moment, like living in your own body experiencing those different sensations? Right, so more like your internal experience of your external body? If that makes sense?
Samantha Spittle 26:52
Yes. And I just had a big aha moment. So I'm going to share in case anyone else benefits from it. But when you were just for walking through that the feather, the IceCube, there's all this stuff, you know, and we each have our own sex stories and what makes us comfortable and uncomfortable and safe and all that. And so I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, okay, if you want to, you know, people listening, want to spice things up, or whatever. It feels like there's, I was noticing in myself, you know, that's certain things feel like such commitment, like if you're going to, like, so we'll just use your two examples to keep it easy, like feathers, like the thought of that, like, oh, my gosh, I have to do this whole sex Thing With Feathers. But like when it was like, Oh, before you get there, this goes back to what you said in the beginning. Like, before you have the sex, you have to talk about the sex. Like you could figure out, do you even like the way a feather feels when you're just sitting together? You know, fully clothed, like, oh, and then if it's a no, well, then yeah, you're not going to do whatever foreplay things could involve and then, right? Like that, just it seems so simple. But it's such a huge, huge aha, that it's like, you don't have to jump in the deep end with when you're exploring things. When you're trying to rediscover your own desire and your connection with your partner. It's like, there's these wonderful little steps you can take.
Ashley Grubbs 28:13
Yeah, I would even say, don't jump into the deep end. And let's jump into the deep bond on its own just a turn on for you. Because we want to get more yeses in the nose. You know. And so if you're like, figuring out if you like a lighter touch, like a feather would give, it's going to really suck if you get all the way to the having sex partner using it, and you're like, This is gross, and I hate it. Like now we've cemented in another message to your brain that sex isn't for you like this isn't enjoyable. So I would say like, definitely have fun with it even in a non sexual setting. And like I said, it doesn't have to be sexual. But do I like this? Right, like, figure that out? Before we give an accidental nod to it being terrible?
Samantha Spittle 28:53
Yes, my gosh, I feel like we have just scratched the surface. And there's so much more we can talk about, as we kind of start to wrap up this episode, because I think we're gonna have lots more we could talk about with this. This is actually kind of I feel like the heaviest and this can be a whole episode in its own but I so I, but I want to at least touch on it. As you said, you know, you you hear a lot of people stories of trauma and abuse and things like that. And that's just such a huge part of your sex life, especially if there's sexual abuse involved. Absolutely. And so if a couple is navigating that or might not know they're navigating it, but it could be impacting how do you start walking through all this professional help is my unofficial my official actually, I should say, recommendation, but to just kind of help plant some seeds for people.
Ashley Grubbs 29:45
Number one thing is to not talk about it and a time where it could get sexual. So any client that comes in mind whether it's a couple or an individual knows my number one rule for talking about sex, trauma included is you don't talk about it at night or the time you're most likely to Have sex and you don't talk about it in bed or the place, you're most likely to have sex. And we've The reason for this is like, we really, really, really don't want to conflate this terrible thing that someone else did to you like this, I say it's a gift we're trying to return is like what I would say in session about it, that gift doesn't get to go with something beautiful, you're choosing, you know, like, we have to keep those as much as we can separate from each other. So that we when you are enjoying, like something really passionate and beautiful. And on your own terms, and conceptual more than anything, we're not accidentally remembering. This time, we talked about a really deep sexual trauma with the same person, right? So like, where we're talking about, it really, really makes a difference to say like, okay, cool, I have this thing I want to share with you, whether it's just like this is okay, or this isn't okay. Or we're like actually talking about the trauma. You know, doing those and very separate entities from one another, is most most important. The second part is you don't have to be detailed, you know, when I think a lot of people think like my partner, so I'm gonna use myself as an example, my sexual trauma happened way before I met, the person I'm married to, like, he was not part of it. He wasn't there, he didn't know me, none of that I was much, much younger. And he doesn't have like, there's no need for me to tell them everything that happened unless I want to, you're allowed to be short about it, you're allowed to be to the point and just say, like, here's what's important for you to know, especially as it relates to what our intimacy together looks like. So my husband knows, that are specific things that will never be on the table and our relationship ever, it's never going to be something I'm into never going to be something I'm going to consider. And so that's the rule he operates on until I until I change my mind, right? And so you're able to say like, Hey, this position, I don't, I don't want you to bring it up. I don't want you to lean towards it. I just want you to know and respect that. For me, that's always going to be a no, no, and not feeling like you have to explain to your partner like, here's why this is and now you know, just respecting yourself more than anything as we go through that. And allowing yourself to explore whatever comes up. So if you're experiencing like sex by choice with your partner is beautiful, and it's lovely, and you still notice you're crying, are still having some kind of emotional response, like talk about it if you want to, or don't talk about it, if you don't want to, you know, allow yourself and your body the space, it needs to process that information is super, super crucial. You know, that respect to yourself matters much more than what kind of sex you're having. And because we look for not having any read it again, we want more yeses? Alas, no. So if in the middle of sex, you're you are having a trauma response, we ended there, like there's no need to power through it, to rewrite that memory. If we're experiencing trauma, we're experiencing trauma, and that's okay. And that can be healthy. And we can respect that. And so it helps your brain to know like, now you're in control and can can say no whenever you want to. So that's like the the very basic pieces where I would start with a partner with healthy sex or those things.
Samantha Spittle 32:59
Great. Thank you. That's huge advice. I feel like you know, with listening today, we if you're listening, it's like we scratched the surface. And if there's things that resonate with someone, kind of the last thing is how to delicately bring some of this stuff up with your partner. Because it's Wednesday, this is like going zero to 60. If there's so many things that people just assume is normal and no one's talking about and so hopefully, you know, if there was some seeds planted today, but that next step, like what does that look like?
Ashley Grubbs 33:33
Yeah, same rules, don't talk about it in bed, don't talk about at night. And I like to prompt it. So hey, I really want to talk about this thing that's important to me, about you can label it, I really want to talk about sex, or I really want to talk about this type of foreplay, or I really want to talk about like a body odor. Or it could be something silly like you need to shower before you're having sex with me, right? Any of that. You lay it out there and have your partner tell you when they feel ready to talk about it. So I want to talk about sex. Let me know when you're ready. That way they can work through and they can acknowledge and own like, oh, what baggage do I think I'm about to bring into this? Am I feeling nervous that you even said it? You know what's going on and have them have their own time and space. Because if you just throw it out there, like I want to talk about sex, people are going to shut down. Like you're not going to be in a place where your partner can hear you or is even on your side, we're immediately and if that's like big picture, we even me, who knows better? That's like, naturally what's gonna happen? My husband was 10 out of 10 Say I fall into this trap on my own. You know, so giving it the space to say like, what parts of me feel activated? Like what am I fearful what's going to happen in this conversation? And then talking about it, you're going to be much more successful than just like, by the way you stink, don't get in bed again. You know, like, give your partner some space to get to where you're at.
Samantha Spittle 34:51
Yes. Oh my gosh, that was huge. Because you were talking and I was like, Yeah, okay, if Jeremy said that to me, what would be activated in me and it would be me yet Lee, what am I doing wrong? Obviously, I'm doing something wrong. Because that's my default of you know, it's my job to make everything great in every person's life. So that's huge. I love that space. So, oh my gosh, Ashley, thank you so much for helping not only normalize the conversation, but help us improve because I think beyond just talking about sex, it's reminding people you know, both men and women like anybody, like sex is supposed to be a good pleasurable a hell yes thing. And, you know, as we start unpacking our own baggage and whatnot around it, getting closer and closer to that, and of course, the emotional and physical intimacy that it provides with your partner. So thank you for helping us start tackling this. And how can people get in touch with you because I know you have some great insights. So
Ashley Grubbs 35:58
I'm the world's worst at answering phone calls and or listening to voicemails. So email is better. So my email is Ashley sh le y at Blue, the color harbor where you park about therapy, what I do.com or sending a message through my website blue Harbor therapy.com.
Samantha Spittle 36:17
And I know you write to for some other pieces. Did you want to share any of those pieces that you write for? Or?
Ashley Grubbs 36:22
Yeah, so I write monthly articles on sex and relationship from kiss and tell magazine. So if you just Google kiss and tell you have to specify magaziner, you'll get some like weird stuff coming up. You can click me and see everything I've written for them.
Samantha Spittle 36:37
Awesome. Well, Ashley, thank you so much. And as I said, I know we just scratched the surface. But I'm just grateful for the work you do the work you do with your clients and I just know that the information you shared today will definitely make an impact. So thank you so much. Thank you