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What if you’re not lost, just living in a part of the story no one talks about? Holding Patterns is a podcast about the in-between. The messy, undefined seasons of life where nothing quite makes sense. Hosted by Ashton Arnold, a deeply curious traveler who is carving out a life beyond the conventional path. Ashton leads guests through the kind of conversations that get honest, intimate, and are rooted in what it actually means to be human. This show is for people who’ve felt unsure, off-course, or like they’re making it up as they go. Each episode features a conversation with someone who has built a life outside the typical script, unpacking the moments where success felt out of reach. From travel and relationships to money and mental health, nothing’s off-limits. Holding Patterns is here to remind you that you’re not behind, you’re not alone, and you’re allowed to figure it out your own way.
[00:00:00]
Ashton: Hi. I'm Ashton, and this is Holding Patterns. This is a podcast about the in-between moments of life, the ones where everything feels a little bit uncertain. I've spent the last couple years moving abroad, starting over, and honestly living in the in-between more often than not. But through all of my own experiences, I've realized quickly that these moments aren't meaningless.
They actually impact a whole lot of who we are. So this is a place to talk about them and to talk to people who've lived through it too. Today on holding patterns. I have a really good friend that I met while living in New Zealand. Her name is Caroline Kane. And Caroline actually was one of the [00:01:00] very first people who expanded my perspective in my world about the possibility of actually making a career through the outdoors and by being outside, which prior to her, I don't think I really.
Realized or understood that that was a possibility, and by hearing her story and all the adventures and lives that she has lived, it has influenced me and expanded my own brain on what is out there and what is possible. We talk. A lot about her career in the fire world and wildland firefighting and more about all the in-betweens, of course, that she has been through.
It's a very fun and expansive conversation, so I'm excited for everybody to get to know Caroline a little bit more.
Ashton: So today [00:02:00] on the podcast I have my friend Caroline Kane. Caroline is from Colorado and she has been doing seasonal work for the past three years before starting her PhD in fire ecology. Some of that seasonal work included. A lot of back country guiding saw work, also moving to different countries and a lot has revolved around wildland fire, studying it, fighting it, lighting it. and Caroline and I actually met living in New Zealand. We met on New Year's Eve and then what, two, two weeks later?
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: two weeks?
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: Two weeks later. Went on a backpacking trip, just the two of us for five nights And never looked
Caroline: And it was awesome.
Ashton: It was one of the best weeks of
Caroline: Totally same. Absolutely.
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: we didn't even get that much sand in the tent.
Ashton: No, no. We were backpacking us Colorado girls. Our mountain girls were backpacking on the beach for [00:03:00] the first time in my life.
I don't know
Caroline: Pretty much. Yeah.
Ashton: in your life. We were like in awe of
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and sand.
Yeah. It was one of the best
Caroline: Yeah. That was so fun. And like walking through the tides,
the hot French man we met.
Ashton: memory. Cambio.
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: brings people together
if you know, you
Caroline: Oh my gosh.
Ashton: Well, thank you Caroline, for joining me. I'm so excited to talk
Caroline: Thanks.
Ashton: and also catch up with you. It's just a good excuse to
Caroline: Totally. I'm so glad to be here. It's so good to see you.
I
Ashton: would love for you to just introduce yourself.
I kind of already gave the gist, but
Caroline: Um, yeah. I'm Caroline Kane. I grew up in Fort Collins, Colorado. right now I'm in Boman, Montana. I'm at MSU, for my PhD. but have been all over the place for the past couple years. excited to be back in Montana and excited to be chatting with you.
Ashton: Yeah. before we dive into these in-between periods, I want to [00:04:00] lay out life as if
each event in your life was a chapter of your book,
so people who don't know you and anyone listening can get a better understanding of in context to your life before we kind of dive into the nitty gritty of it.
And I think can help understand you better and where you come from and all of
Caroline: Sweet.
Awesome. Um, I mean, I think from like zero to 18 my time in Fort Collins in Colorado, I grew up in a super outdoorsy family and that was really formative. That's like definitely what both myself, my brother, have chosen to do for our careers. And, just that foundation.
Ashton: we're, we're gonna get into that.
Caroline: Yes, yes. Um, yeah,
Ashton: very unique.
Caroline: definitely. Um, yeah, so that foundation of just like growing up in the outdoors was really pivotal.
started college at Gonzaga University in Spokane. but then COVID hit my freshman year. and I ended up transferring to the University of [00:05:00] Montana, which is where I discovered fire science. and that was like super pivotal, a big, career path, just like laid out before me. And I started as a research assistant at Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory.
And worked there all through my undergrad and then, graduated and started this whole path of seasonal work.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: has been super awesome. So.
Ashton: Yeah. And can you describe some of those
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: work jobs? I know I mentioned some of them in your introduction, but what did those look
Caroline: Yeah, I'll do like a super brief timeline of it all. Um, graduated college, moved to Durango, Colorado to be, a backpacking guide for 16 to 18 year olds on these like month long expeditions. which is super fun. And then I started doing chainsaw work through a Conservation Corps in Durango, for a couple months, and then moved to New Zealand, which is where I met Ashton.
Um, and I was there for five or six months, just [00:06:00] like playing around, living outta my car. No. Agenda.
Ashton: Living the dream?
Caroline: Which was fun and also stressful, but mostly fun. Um, and then I came back to the States for four months to do more chainsaw work in Northern Colorado. This time, it's more fire stuff and then went back to New Zealand at the end of 2024, to teach for a study abroad program, like an ecology based study abroad program.
And then move back to the states. in January of 2025, it's all bleeding together. Yes. to do, yeah, to start, a prescribed burn job with a nonprofit in Sida, Colorado. And then from S slide, I moved to Moab to work a fire job for the state as like a kinda a more supervisory role, but still, you know, out in the field finding fire.
and then just moved to Bozeman last month for my PhD.
Ashton: Every time I talk about you [00:07:00] and describe you to people, especially when I was tour guiding last summer, Caroline was in Moab. And so I got to see her often, um, because I took tour groups through there. And so I would always like tell the people I was on a trip with.
I'm like, I'm going to see my friend. And they're like, what does, what does she do living in Moab? And I was like, oh, she's a
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: And they were like, what? And I had to go, I had to describe like
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: the, I'm like, yeah, she's my coolest, coolest friend, most badass friends. So for people who don't, 'cause most people actually have no idea what, like a career revolving around
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: in a chainsaw crew, in what that even is.
So would you describe to somebody who's never heard of like, what, what is a
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: were
Caroline: Yeah. There's kind of two sides to fire that I was doing. one side is fuel work and one side is suppression. So fuel work is before there's a fire or just like in, in general pre-fire, you go in and clear, trees and thin out the forest. So when fire does come through, it's [00:08:00] less severe. and then the suppression side is when there's actually fire, you're going in fighting it.
Um, cutting down trees so that they don't burn in front of the fire. yeah, constructing line, which is like a holding feature so fire doesn't burn over that. yeah, that's kind of the two sides of it. so I've spent a lot of time in both.
Ashton: when you're doing these types of jobs, what, where are you living? Like, what does life, what does life look
Caroline: Yeah. Um, in a tent for all of them. yeah, for fuels work it's a little easier 'cause there's, nothing's on fire, there's no, you know, emergency, but we still need to be out in the field. So, it's, everyone has their own tent, but it's pretty communal living. We're all cooking and eating together. And then on a fire you live in what's called the fire camp, which is where everyone, it's still in their own tent, but there's like a mess hall and like a medical tent and that's where like Martin briefings are.
Um, yeah, it's a typical fire roll is 14 days, but they can be up to 21 days as well.
Ashton: And how [00:09:00] many people are typically are you living with and doing these jobs
Caroline: Um, a fuel screw can be pretty much any size. I was on a crew of usually eight people. and then for when I was on suppression roll, I was on a hand crew and that's between like 18 to 21 people. Usually one of the only women.
Ashton: interesting. Yeah. I was just gonna say how many
Caroline: Yeah,
Ashton: are, it's a male
Caroline: for sure. Yeah. The last fire was on, it was me and one other woman,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: yeah.
Ashton: So funny. You're a strong woman.
Caroline: It definitely makes
Ashton: to, to live like that.
Caroline: you definitely make really good friends with the other women. You're just like immediately besties.
Ashton: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. You're
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: Okay, so we talked about the unique family upbringing you had. 'cause I remember when we first met, I was like, what you just have, and maybe in Colorado or like places that are more outdoorsy, it might be a bit more normal how you grew up or like your family structure, [00:10:00] but. For people who grew up in a city or nowhere near the mountains or nowhere
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: I think the way your parents raised you is very, very unique. So, I guess where I wanna start is like, describe your parents, what they did, like your
Caroline: Mm.
Ashton: um, what, what the household was like, what the Cain family was
Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my family's like pretty awesome. I feel really fortunate to have a really great family. Um, my parents are from the east coast, but they moved out to Colorado for my dad to start his PhD, and then raised their family there. I have an older brother who's like four and a half years older than I am.
and my parents, at least my mom specifically, has like always been pretty outdoorsy, but in a South Florida type of way where they would like canoe through the Everglades and like, they were doing really cool stuff, but not necessarily in the mountains. and then, yeah, once they moved to Colorado they were, my mom was like, I'm never leaving here.
yeah, so we
Ashton: Which happens [00:11:00] to a
Caroline: totally.
Ashton: A lot of people
Caroline: That was like, I don't know, like 1994 or something. they definitely raised us outside. Like we, every summer we were hiking in the winters. We were like snowshoeing or snow hiking and, my parents didn't ski, but both my brother and I picked skiing and snowboarding up, as kids as well.
my parents are awesome. They also had us do some, like pretty extreme stuff at young ages. I think I did my first fourteener.
Ashton: I
Caroline: Yeah,
Ashton: you're putting it light.
Caroline: yeah,
Ashton: there on the
Caroline: yeah, yeah. I did my first fourteener when I was like seven in a lightning storm.
Ashton: And for people who
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: or have been to Colorado, a fourteener is a mountain that is over 14,000 feet and we have quite a few of
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: Colorado. So if you grew up there, if you hike there, we just, it's like doing a fourteener is um, what would you say? Like a Colorado
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Ab I mean,
Ashton: But seven is Seven is
Caroline: [00:12:00] totally. And they're not easy, like a lot of people lived their entire life in Colorado never doing, which is also awesome. Um,
Ashton: I mean 'cause you're scaling at the top of it. You are. It's not a trail. You're scaling out and
Caroline: Yeah. Which
Ashton: Yeah. That's intense
Caroline: to which was like traumatizing. Yeah,
Ashton: Like traumatizing.
Caroline: yeah,
Ashton: How
Caroline: yeah. They were like bribing me up the trail with gummy bears.
Ashton: Was your brother into, into the outdoors thing at a
Caroline: I think neither of us really liked it till each of us respectively hit high school. I think I think we both were also just like, I would rather sit on the couch. I think we were just like, you know, it was like hard work, but he definitely took to it a little quicker than I did.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: probably just 'cause he was older as well.
But um, yeah, we grew up going to backpacking camp as well and I think learning how to do the outdoors without our parents was like really, really valuable. Um, and I think when both of us started to like, you know, take some autonomy in our outdoor personhood and really start to enjoy it,
Ashton: Totally, totally. And what did your parents do for [00:13:00] work? Because you mentioned your dad had a PhD
Caroline: He, um, is a water resource engineer. He never finished his PhD but he moved out there, um, to start it.
Ashton: for it.
Caroline: Yeah, so he's a water resource engineer, so he does river forecasting, um, systems all over the world. He's done a ton of work with the Panama Canal. It's a really big inside joke. In my family he's presented about the Panama Canal and every single one of my brother and i's classes like K through 12.
He has like a different PowerPoint based on the age group. And he like tried to present when I was in college to my environmental science class.
Oh
yeah, so he was like definitely in the, environmental field. And then my mom worked for Colorado State University helping, research professors find funding.
Um, so super important to academia and yeah, they're both now retired as of like January 1st,
so you grew up in a family that was kind of out of the norm. did you have friends who's parents were doing, like, were doing the same activities as you on the
Not [00:14:00] really like some, some of them, but I definitely feel like I was kind of like a token outdoorsy gal growing up.
Ashton: Yeah. That's kind of
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: most of your life. Yeah. Yeah. we talked about when you were younger,
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: it, but as you grew up and became a teenager and you know, were finding your own things and hobbies, was that an identity you were trying to run away from, or did you
Caroline: I think that's definitely something I embraced pretty early, well, maybe not early on, but maybe like middle school, late middle school, early high school. I started to realize that that was something that made me different, which I really enjoyed, like having kind of a thing like that.
so I definitely, it resonated early on.
It's, it's funny moving to places like, like Montana and Colorado where everyone is like that. I, I know, like I lost a little bit of that tokenism of it, um, for better or for worse, but,
Ashton: No, I mean, I've experienced that too when, like, I
Caroline: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and I wa Yeah.
I was the token outdoorsy person, and I wa I couldn't even be that outdoorsy 'cause I didn't have
Caroline: [00:15:00] Totally.
Ashton: to outdoorsy
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: I remember being like, oh, like just itching for, and Yeah.
and my friends still to this day, from that time period, like I'm the outdoorsy
Caroline: Totally,
Ashton: those friend groups, you know?
But then when you move to New Zealand, it's like, oh my God, I don't know anything. And same in
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: Canada. It's like, my God, I've never, I've never done a seven day overnight backpacking, sleep in a tent in the snow and cl also climb a mountain
but it's cool.
It's also, it expands your, your knowledge of the outdoors as well
Caroline: Yeah,
Ashton: environments like that.
Caroline: totally.
Ashton: Yeah. Um, so going, going off of that identity thing with being outdoorsy and Yeah. That kind of defining who you are, did you feel like there was a set of expectations placed on you from your family and even yourself of like what you were supposed to do and what your future should look like and what path
Caroline: Hmm.
Ashton: follow?
Caroline: Um, definitely not for my family. They would've been [00:16:00] equally stoked if I had gone into like accounting or something like that. but one thing that they really harped on was to choose something that would make me happy regardless of, any financial certainty of any of it. it's way more, they just, yeah, made it clear it's way more sustainable to something that will make me happy than,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: else.
Ashton: Um, and the one thing I knew when I graduated high school is that I liked being outside. So I chose ecology and biology to study and here I am Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think it's so and lucky to have parents who showed you that there can be success within the outdoors, because I think a lot of people probably love the outdoors, but the only, um, path they see in front of them, or the examples of success has been people who have gone into a corporate job or a, like, you don't look at outdoors usually and be like, oh, I can make a
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: So for you to have an example of that from such a young age is so
Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's just [00:17:00] like how you define success. Like my, my parents made it clear that their idea of success was like us being happy, not us being like on a certain path or like at a certain financial situation. Because the outdoors don't pay. They do not pay well.
definitely an undercurrent seasonal work.
Ashton: Yep. Absolutely. Well, that's funny. That was literally my next question was how was success defined in
Caroline: yeah,
Ashton: So
Caroline: there you go.
Ashton: But it is it, I mean that, I like the reason, and I've said this in the other episodes I've recorded, but why I think it's so interesting to like dive into the family background and spend a lot of time talking about this is because those things, those beliefs and those like of success and expectations, they literally shape your whole adult
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: unless you take the time to take a step back and you're like, wait, is that how I define success, or is that just how what was
Caroline: Totally. Yeah, exactly. definitely feel super fortunate with that and, I feel like it is a fast track to [00:18:00] choosing your career in the outdoors. I think a lot of people can come to that later in life, which is also awesome. but that definitely requires some, like unlearning or just like repositioning of your ideas of success.
Ashton: Yeah. Okay. So as you laid out kind of all the different jobs and where your life has taken you the last couple years, we're gonna get into a certain holding pattern, but I would love for you to set the scene for anyone listening what life looked like before the holding pattern started.
So, as you know, refresher of like how I define these holding patterns, it's really when a chapter kind of ended and then you were left in this space of no forward motion.
Caroline: yes, at this point I was living in Salida, Colorado, leading a prescribed burn crew there. It was so much fun. me and 16 of my friends all lived together in this like pseudo brothel hotel thing that was above a bar in a pottery studio.
And it [00:19:00] was so fun. Um, and we just like let stuff on fire and cut down trees. Um. Drank a lot, which was not great, but,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: definitely a defining trait of living with a bunch of firefighters. we were on a four on three off schedule, so I worked Monday through Thursday, 10 hour days, and then had, Friday, Saturday, Sunday off, and I'd ski most of the weekend and do pottery every weekend.
It was so fun,
Ashton: So you and I think that people who aren't in seasonal work, uh, maybe won't have much like defined endings, but I know that's something that we've bonded over and talked about many times is that that's what comes
Caroline: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: And a lot of times you can't figure it out fast enough
Caroline: Yes.
Ashton: then you're left with the, I mean, that's how
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: patterns have always come about is like the
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: [00:20:00] has ended, or that chapter has ended and I'm like,
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Totally.
Ashton: What do I do now? is that you didn't really know what was gonna come after this.
Once you were on and the season was over, you didn't necessarily have a
Caroline: No, I had no plan. I mean, and I feel like a defining characteristic of seasonal work, at least for my seasons, they were all like 10 ish weeks long on average. Um, so by the time you're halfway through the season that you're currently living in, you're applying for your next season. So it's like really hard to like even,
Ashton: Yep.
Caroline: enjoy where you're at half the, for like the back half of your season because you're interviewing, you're filling applications, you're trying to figure out where do I wanna live?
Where can I even get to, like, is it gonna pay me enough?
if you don't figure it out in time, like your options are slim, especially in, a career like fire where applications for the summer come out the September before.
Yeah. If, yeah, if, if you wanna go federal, you, you basically apply at the end of [00:21:00] your season for your following summer.
Ashton: Wow.
Caroline: yeah. And, and that's,
Ashton: no idea it
Caroline: yeah, mostly just federal. But if you didn't figure that out in time and it's January and you wanna start doing fire in, you know, may, your options are limited, you're not gonna go federal and you have to do like a fire protection district or, conservation core work or something like that.
Ashton: How did, how did you learn about this? Kind of going off topic a little bit, but how did you learn about all of these, like federal and like where to even look for these jobs? Or did you meet people in college who had worked these careers and then that led you to figure out how to get into this?
Or was it a lot of your own research? How did, how did you even find these
Caroline: Um, a little bit of both. I would say. Like kind of creating mentors at each job I was at, like, just like picking people's brains, a lot of trial and error and failing and realizing I'm too late, like to apply for certain things. there's in fire, there's, you take your like, firefighter certification class, it's called S one 30 and it's just like how to be a firefighter.
And part of that, at the [00:22:00] nonprofit that I worked for and instructed for, they do a jobs class at night, which is basically how to use USA jobs, which is the worst website ever. And that's where all the federal firefighting jobs are. Any federal job essentially is on USA jobs. Um, and it's just a nightmare to navigate.
And they jobs come out in like these weird rolling submissions where they're open for like six weeks at a time, but, and there's like different levels. It's just so confusing. So that jobs class, which I think is pretty unique to Colorado Fire Camp, um, was super helpful.
Ashton: And were you doing that during college? When? When did you do that?
Caroline: Probably the first, I did a couple, I did almost all my certifications with Colorado Fire Camp. Um, the first jobs class thing was probably like April of 2024 when I got back from New Zealand.
Ashton: Oh, okay. Okay. So when you were in college, were you doing any fire
Caroline: I was working at the fire lab, which was fire science research, but it wasn't firefighting. It was very controlled. We had, like, we had a burn chamber and we were lighting stuff on fire in there, but, um, yeah, nothing wild then.
Ashton: Interesting. Okay. Sorry that was
Caroline: No.
Ashton: but I just
Caroline: Totally,[00:23:00]
Ashton: of how you even figured out how to get yourself into
Caroline: totally. It's, yeah, I feel like if you, yeah, it's kind of like an insider trading secret sometimes of like how to, how to apply, how to do a federal resume is its own beast. It's an entirely different style of resume than anything you have. Like, um, yeah.
Okay. Um, so to go back,
Ashton: So the
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and I'm, I'm assuming here you didn't have a job, a next job lined up
Caroline: Yeah. I, it was like the last week of the season is when I finally got something lined up, but it was, scheduled way out. Like the timeline did not exactly line up. I knew I was going to Ecuador with my mom right after my season ended, but didn't know what was gonna happen once I landed back in the States.
Ashton: So now, now take us, take us
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: pattern. We're
Caroline: Yes. We've arrived.
Ashton: depths of it.
What does life look like in the holding pattern?
How are you feeling?
Caroline: Um, I mean, I feel like I go through one of these between each job, which between each jobs eight jobs was seven of them. But this one was, [00:24:00] um,
Ashton: so exhausting.
Caroline: this one is like pretty, I've never, like, I usually have something lined up by the time that job finishes, but it's never an exact match. Like, there's always weeks in between, down to like, months in between, which can be hard.
And when I was in Slyda, I, there was, I mean, there's a lot of factors that played into not being able to find a job after the season. I think a large one was, the current administration had recently cut a ton of funding for anything related to natural science, fire, any even, there's a ton of
Hiring freezes. Like it was a tough time to be in the field of natural resources. and all through my seasonal work, I, I've always wanted to go to grad school. That has like, been my goal since I graduated college. I knew I wanted time off before I did that, but um, after I got back from New Zealand the first time I was like, okay, I think it's time to start applying.
And so by, by the time we hit January in Sida, I'd been applying for grad schools for a year and getting rejected, just mercilessly, um, [00:25:00] partially due to just
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: wasn't the right fit. I wasn't the right person. And also due to funding being cut for grad school programs. so no one's able to bring on anyone.
I got in the time of January to March of 2024 when I was in sled, I got rejected from 10 grad schools. Which was gnarly. Yeah, it was, it was awful. And like I had federal research experience, I had field experience, I had, you know, I did everything right in college in or so to so to speak.
yeah.
yeah. So it was just like utter defeat.
Ashton: out of your
Caroline: Yeah, totally. No job lined up. Grad school was not gonna happen on the timeline that I wanted it to.
Ashton: So the feelings, the happening right now is a lot of like, is it self-criticism? Is it self-doubt or that you in a place of really lacking hope?
Caroline: yeah, definitely, definitely started to feel hopeless. just like rejection after rejection, both from jobs and grad schools is like, was just a lot. Especially someone who I haven't. I really failed a whole lot in my life, which is really a crazy thing to say, but,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: yeah, to like have that repeatedly handed to me [00:26:00] over, a pretty short amount of time was definitely really hard.
also just like tinge with desperation for sure of like, I'll honestly get on any crew that will take me. Like, I, I can't afford to have standards anymore,
Ashton: Yeah,
which is tough.It is tough. It is tough and you don't, yeah.
it's hard to talk about when you're going through that as well. I'm similar, like, I, I think I've avoided
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: for a lot
Caroline: Yes.
Ashton: fi my life because I've
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: of it. I, not that like I feel lucky that I haven't failed.
I think, I think failure is actually
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: thing to go through, and I didn't put myself in situations to fail. And I, I mean, I think now. For sure. I, I do when I have, and I'm getting more comfortable with it, but I think it's been a disservice to myself to like,
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: but perfectionism deep sometimes and then when you do fail, it feels like your world
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Ashton: how do I
Caroline: Yeah. I, I mean, I think I [00:27:00] sometimes even get caught up in like, the concept of baby steps. Everyone's like, well, just like baby steps towards your goal, but baby steps are way safer than like a leap of faith. and sometimes baby steps aren't enough, you know, you just like have to full send, and that's, that's where failure happens,
Ashton: Yeah, But you've learned, I mean, you do, you've
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: much through it and I mean
These holding patterns and like these places of pause, I think can. Bring so much good into your life if you just let yourself
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: it. yeah, like I think you get, for me personally, and I think anybody I know close to me, and I've watched them go through their own in-between periods. When you let yourself sit in the failure or experience it, I don't know you, I think you gained so much more than just like getting it
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: or just like coasting through you're a more interesting person if you've been through the ups and the
Caroline: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah.
Ashton: So when you're having all these rejections [00:28:00] and still nothing's really coming through, how are you just getting by day to day when you're not in the best mental place? A lot of the, a lot of the hope is gone.
what things were you relying on to. It just make you feel better. what in this holding pattern was helping?
Caroline: I feel lucky that like kind of the, the brunt of all this was happening in the last week of my season. so I was surrounded by like a really great support system like we all live together, um, which is a lot of us all together in a small space. but they all also do seasonal work and I was really able to rely on everyone around me who's.
Honestly kind of experiencing the same thing.
yeah, I think, I think that was a big one, is we just like all talked about it all the time. we all just talked about seasonal life and what it was like and you know, the good things, the bad things, the woes of it all. Um, so that was definitely something I relied on.
And then, skiing a lot, got really into backcountry skiing that season. 'cause I liked the, the uphill element of it. [00:29:00] Um, the like low key suffering part of it I think was super helpful.
Ashton: I like that you pointed that out because I do think that what can make these periods worse is if you're looking to advice or looking to people who aren't living the way you are living make you feel better. And sometimes that's your parents and sometimes that's your
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and sometimes that's your siblings. But you're live living this seasonal life. You're looking to your parents who have never lived a seasonal job or lived this way to try and make you feel better. It can honestly sometimes make you feel so much
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: you feel so
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and that, wait, actually the path that I'm on is wrong.
And I am, I've made the wrong choices and
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: But when you're surrounded by people who are living the exact same way as you, and you can, yeah, you can lean
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: in such a deeper way. It is so helpful.
Caroline: Absolutely.
Ashton: so helpful. And what Ihope that this, these conversations give is to maybe [00:30:00] somebody listening who isn't living with
Caroline: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: through it.
They can listen to this and be like, listen to you. Talk about going through it and be like, feel, you know, just comforted to be like, Ugh, I'm not
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: in this feeling or navigating this. Yeah. And Yeah.
getting outside and
Caroline: Yes.
Ashton: is, I mean, that's been my solution during all of these
Caroline: Always
Ashton: It's, it's like the, what's that saying of like, depression, can't get a moving
Caroline: can't hit a moving target. Yep. Yes.
Ashton: Like,
Caroline: Yep. Exactly. Yeah.
Ashton: Just keep swimming.
Caroline: No, definitely.
Ashton: what like fueled you to after 10 rejections and the fact that you're here and you did get into a PhD program and you got through this, like in those moments, what, what kept you going and moving forward and like still getting after this goal?
I'm sure it didn't happen right away, but in the periods, can you look back on that and be like, ah, that, that was my fuel, my energy for [00:31:00] this.
Caroline: I just kept applying, I kept emailing. I think I feel kind of, it started to come from like, I, okay, so the process of me applying to grad school was like blasting out emails to literally any, every professor who had anything remotely related to what I wanted to do, begging them to take on a grad student.
Specifically for ecology and a lot of like research-based grad programs, you have to join a lab. In order to join a lab. You have to have a professor sponsor your grad school application. So you can't just apply to a school and hope to get in. You have to have a professor who wants to, so hence the, like the email blast to literally everyone.
And I would say 80% of the time, I just didn't even hear back from them. Not even a yes. Not even a no, like radio silence. So honestly, once, even if they were replying to reject me, it was better than not hearing anything. And so that was like little, little bits of fuel that I was like, okay, like at least it's something.
At least I acknowledge that I exist in this world.
Ashton: for
Caroline: Um, so that was one thing. I think also leaned a lot on like my resources, chatting with, friends who had gone to grad school, my parents' friends who [00:32:00] are professors. I did a lot of that actually.
talking to them being like, what should I do? What am I doing wrong? And I had one conversation with a professor who's one of my mom's friends that I think really kind of changed everything for me. She just kind of told me the way to structure my emails and what to say that professors will respond to and what, what time of year to email them.
Ashton: What was the best time of year to send a professor An
Caroline: she said two or three weeks after classes start is usually good. or like, right before classes start, before students have come on campus, but they're already kind of like working and stuff.
Ashton: Insider
Caroline: Yeah, totally.
Ashton: So you fuel from just keep, kind of keep with it and then also just looking to people who are in the field, in realm that you
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and looking for those, that advice as well. And you're just very passionate about this, so I'm assuming that kept the fuel, like there was no other option but for you to get to where you are.
Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. mean, yeah, I've always wanted to go to grad school, like I've known that since I was young. I've, I've wanted to get a PhD forever. [00:33:00] so failing wasn't an option. It was just,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: would just take longer to get there, but it, it was, it was never, not going to happen.
Ashton: So we talked about the feelings and how you navigated it. Did you come out of this job and then still were like, in this liminal space
Caroline: I mean, for me, I feel like those, like the holding patterns in liminal spaces don't really end until I'm kind of like, well settled within my next job. I think another thing that really characterizes, especially in seasonal work, characterizes those holding patterns is saying goodbye to your community that you've just built and been so close with, my friend Jake and I talk about how it's, it's like our dog dying every 10 weeks.
just saying goodbye to these people.
horrible. Like every time I would leave a job, I would drive away sobbing, which is it's awesome that I like created such intense deep friendships in such a short amount of time. But 80%, 90% of those people I probably will never see again. But they were like a very large part of my life.
We lived together, worked together, eight together, exercise, like literally every waking moment was spent with these [00:34:00] like random people. So I think
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: you kind of form that new community in your new role, that is very hard to let go of and definitely can shape those holding patterns for a while.
Ashton: I feel like that every time I've ended a seasonal job where I've gotten community, it's just like I'm chasing again, that
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: probably why we're both attracted to seasonal work is the community aspect. It's like such a beautiful, beautiful thing that we get to experience that over and over again with all the jobs.
But then it's also such a harsh lesson of like, nothing lasts forever,
Caroline: Yeah, it's horrible.
Ashton: Okay. So when, when do you start the next job?
Caroline: So I, I didn't know I got this Moab job till a couple days before my season ended. they had told me that they would let me know by this Thursday, and I didn't hear anything from them on Friday, on that Friday. And I was like, that was my last option. that was, I'm out of job applications.
and that was like a low,
Ashton: What were you feeling? Describe, describe that a
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: Like what were
Caroline: Um, definitely feeling just super lost. I was like, my only option right now is to move in with my parents after Ecuador. [00:35:00] seasonal jobs don't pay. Well, I did not have enough money to live on my own somewhere.
So I was kind of reckoning with that. I was definitely just throwing myself a pity party that day for sure. Of just like,
What, what is this? I remember sobbing in a coffee shop and my friend walked by the window and did a double taking game inside.
He was like, are you okay? And I was like, literally no.
Ashton: oh,
Caroline: yeah, which was funny and really nice of them.
so that was definitely for sure and like kind of that whole
Ashton: Feeling pity
Caroline: That whole weekend was just like major, pretty party. definitely super tough. But then that following Monday, I heard from the Moab job that they wanted me in a permanent position, which is really exciting.
Like pretty rare in the fire world. yeah, so everything definitely turned around after that. so after Ecuador, I did know where I was going, which is really nice.but
Ashton: Which is
Caroline: helpful. But there's always like that in-between time where for me it was like I was always just living at my parents, like in my childhood bedroom
Ashton: well thank you. Thank you for kind of going back in to [00:36:00] things that might not be the most fun to talk about, but again, I think are really helpful to just normalize. ' cause even if you're not in seasonal work. We all go through
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: it's inevitable. And we also all go
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: Even if people are like us and try to avoid
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: you're gonna go through
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: it's like, might as well just acknowledge that and figure out how to
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Ashton: Because I don't think it always has to be this soul crushing, knife in the
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: type of experience.
It can, it can roll off your
Caroline: Yeah, totally.
Ashton: I think. so that being said, What can you look back on and feel like something shifted for you? In that time period, if anything,
Caroline: I think out of all the holding patterns I lived in, that one is definitely framed with the most, desperation or fear of the unknown, which I've, I've lived with a lot of my life the fear of the unknown just is inherent with, she's an working, traveling, That one didn't seem to like really have an end to it, that I could see from where I was standing. And obviously on the other [00:37:00] side, I can see it very clearly. but I think, I think I was able, like on that one day that it was just like I didn't hear anything and I was like, this is, this is so bad. I was kind able to see like, this isn't working out the way that I want it to, but it's gonna work out the way that it will, you know?
and I think that
Ashton: like acceptance a
Caroline: kind of accepting defeat a little bit of okay, I can't always control every single element of this. it's all worked out a little too well for me in the past in terms of like lining up gigs and, getting on really great crews and stuff.
that fear of failure, and then it
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: it happens, it, it
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: but you think it does, and then you're like, okay, it, didn't
Caroline: Yeah, totally.
Ashton: I'm
Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. And like
Ashton: You
Caroline: things considered, I had a very soft landing place. like I said, moving with my parents was not the end of the world. it's definitely not what I wanted to do or was remotely even like plan C, but, it would've been fine. I would've been okay, and I would've figured something out.
and I did
Ashton: the only option is to figure it out or, or,
Caroline: that's the only option. Yeah, exactly.
Ashton: Like those are the
Caroline: Exactly. I think always reminding myself and just like with how I got into this [00:38:00] PhD program, like it just never will look the way that I planned in my head, but it will happen the way that it will, it's not up to me.
Ashton: I think when you
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: and accept that it's a little less
Caroline: Totally. Yeah. that concept of radical acceptance. What easier said than done though.
Ashton: Absolutely. We can say it on this podcast, but do
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: it
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: I think also because I've taken the time to
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: them so much. And even doing this has forced me to reflect on all of my transitioning periods. It's like, think if you take the time and reflect and like, what did that one
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: I, what did that one really, how did it really impact me? I don't know. When you're in the next one, like the
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: now, unemployed and it's like, don't know.
I think I
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: a
Caroline: Yeah. Something will work out, you know?
Ashton: I'll find someone's
Caroline: Exactly. Always.
Ashton: I need to.
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: Always, always. going back to the reflective questions, was there something that you really had to let go of during this
Caroline: Mm-hmm. I think the, the version of the future that I had built up [00:39:00] in my head, maybe for like months at that point of what I wanted my summer and my career and my future to look like. It kind of all came crumbling down. So I definitely had to just deal with the fact that it wasn't gonna look like that.
and yeah, that was, that's never easy, you know, it's, it's, especially when you build up an idea in your head, you become really attached to it, regardless if it's like realistic or not.
Ashton: With
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: relationships, jobs, houses, everything. now that you are where you are, you're at your PhD, have a nice home, like everything's
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: right now, can you look at your life now and think, I wouldn't have this if I hadn't have gone through that period?
Caroline: For sure. Oh yeah, I think, I mean, I think that letting go of what I kind of wanted everything to look like and had just more like if it'll happen the way it's supposed to mentality, I think honestly gave me this position in a way. I only have like my bachelor's degree, I didn't go for my master's, so when I saw this PhD position posted, I was like, or I'll just apply, [00:40:00] whatever.
It's probably it's just a, I don't know. I had no, nothing tied to it. No, moral standing in it. it was just like totally on a whim and then I kept getting in interviews and then another interview. and now I'm here, but I think it's because I,
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: let go of the outcome of it.
I kind of viewed it as just like, well, this is good practice. You know, this is just another stepping stone. This is necessarily the, the end goal. And I think kind of having a more,
Ashton: a loose take on it all because of learning to let go of how I want things to look, just really set me up well and helped with that.
That's a great answer. And I guess we kind of already answered this question, but would you describe your current life phase where you're now, are you settled? Are you still
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: Are you in the uncertainty? Are you in the unknown?
Caroline: Yeah, definitely a bit of it is still known. Like I've only been in Bozeman for a little over a month and a half now. and I think I'm still definitely in a way mourning my community that I had in Moab. like I had such an amazing, it's such a small [00:41:00] community, so, everyone gets really close really fast there.
And yeah, I just had an excellent group of friends there. and that was hard to let go of. and I think the position I'm in now too, I, there's definitely a decent amount of imposter syndrome of like, holy shit, I haven't had to use my brain in three years.
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: so just kind of relearning academia, just also being a PhD student without a master's is a whole nother thing.
Yeah, exactly. and classes are hard. My research is really hard. it's all fun and exciting, but. Yeah, I think I'm still in that kind of like reaching the end of the holding pattern of this phase of life,
Ashton: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: for sure. yeah, definitely getting more settled and, you start to like emerge out of the fog a little bit.
Which is really nice. Like, oh, can see the sun again.
Ashton: And it
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Always, every, every time. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: time. Yeah. And then it,
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: again,
Caroline: It'll get foggy. Mm-hmm.
Ashton: foggy. Exactly. Well, to wrap this up, What advice would you have for the future version of yourself that's gonna [00:42:00] go through another holding pattern? What advice would you give her now and to anyone listening that might be going through a holding pattern right now or in the future?
Caroline: I think
Ashton: I.
Caroline: just knowing, and it sounds kind of bleak, but just knowing the only way out was through, and you will get through, I think in the thick of it. the fog analogy. you can't see which way you're facing, you don't know which way you're going.but like we said, the fog will always lift.
and I think it's easy to see that, like hindsight is 2020, you know, but when you're in the thick of it, you can't see. so I think just
Ashton: Yeah.
Caroline: of keeping that on the back burner of everything will work out, you know, again, not the way that you picture it. and maybe even just trying to let go of the way you're picturing it, ' cause that might be holding you back from what's actually supposed to be happening.
Ashton: back for sure. Yeah, that's such a good point. That's such a good point. last question, because I want to shift the spotlight away from just highlighting successes
is there one thing you can think of in all of your transitionary times that is actually like something you wanna celebrate
Caroline: Totally. I mean, I think, I think too, first of all, like it builds [00:43:00] resilience like none other. and I think that is like super applicable to every realm of life. And I think I chalk a lot of that up to all these uncertain times and, Floating for the better part of my twenties so far. I think, yeah, it's allowed me to be incredibly flexible and resilient.
and I talked about
Ashton: Oh, those are great.
Caroline: and the, the communities that you get out of it too, I, I would not trade the holding patterns for the community. Like I going through these holding patterns is so worth it because of the communities on either sides of them. And the people you get to meet and the experiences you get to have, it's definitely worth suffering for a couple months just to experience some of those incredible people and places and jobs and all of it.
Ashton: Yeah. Yeah.
Your main goal, your main success of life can't be to be at the high the
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: time. It's just that's
Caroline: Totally.
Ashton: You know? You have to have, you have to
Caroline: Yeah, exactly. And
Ashton: You have to
Caroline: yeah,
Ashton: pattern to
Caroline: exactly. Yeah. And also to make you appreciate them that much more. I think I appreciate the stability that my life is offering me now because I have lived in such instability for three years, so.
Ashton: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you had, [00:44:00] if you had
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Ashton: three years ago, you might
Caroline: I'd be bored outta my mind.
Ashton: quit
Caroline: Yep. I'd be burnt out, bored outta my mind.
Super unres, like restless and Yeah, for sure.
Ashton: Exactly. Exactly. thank you so much. That was such a good conversation and I love
Caroline: Yay.
Ashton: You're, it's just like I said, you're my
Caroline: Oh,
Ashton: friend and I love
Caroline: I love you too.
Ashton: and I am sure that hopefully we'll have another
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: And for anyone listening, if you are interested in fires
I'm sure Caroline would love to all put your Instagram
Caroline: True,
Ashton: or something attached to this,
you could reach out to Caroline if you have any questions about that.
But she is an amazing person to talk to about all things, in that regard. So yeah, definitely reach out to her and thank you again
Caroline: Yeah.
Ashton: I
Caroline: I love you too. Thanks so.
Ashton: [00:45:00]