Mostly Books Meets...

This week, we welcome author Chloe Timms onto the podcast. Chloe Timms' debut novel The Sea Women was published in June of this year. The book follows Esther, a young woman raised on an island within a deeply religious society, that cut itself off from the mainland. Fellow author Kirsty Logan described it as The Handmaid's Tale meets The Shape of Water. When she's not writing Chloe is a passionate disability rights campaigner and also hosts the podcast Confessions of a Debut Novelist.

Show Notes

This week, we welcome author Chloe Timms onto the podcast. Chloe Timms' debut novel The Seawomen was published in June of this year. The book follows Esther, a young woman raised on an island within a deeply religious society, that cut itself off from the mainland. Fellow author Kirsty Logan described it as The Handmaid's Tale meets The Shape of Water. When she's not writing Chloe is a passionate disability rights campaigner and also hosts the podcast Confessions of a Debut Novelist.

Purchase The Seawomen here

(1:42) Chloe Timms' Earliest Reading Memory
(7:46) Chloe's Teenage Reading Slump
(14:43) Chloe's Current Reading Habits
(19:20) Chloe's Recent Reads
(25:48) The Book That Changed Chloe Timms' Life
(33:22) The Seawomen

Listen to Chloe's podcast, Confessions of a Debut Novelist here

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a weekly podcast by the independent award-winning bookshop, Mostly Books. Nestled in the Oxfordshire town of Abingdon-on-Thames, Mostly Books has been spreading the joy of reading for fifteen years. Whether it’s a book, gift, or card you need the Mostly Books team is always on hand to help. Visit our website.

The podcast is produced and presented by Jack Wrighton and the team at Mostly Books. It is edited by Story Ninety-Four. Find us on Twitter @mostlyreading & Instagram @mostlybooks_shop.

Meet the host:
Jack Wrighton is a bookseller and social media manager at Mostly Books. His hobbies include photography and buying books at a quicker rate than he can read them.
Connect with Jack on Instagram

The Seawomen is published in the UK by Hachette

Books mentioned in this episode include:
The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood - ISBN: 9780099740919
The Bed and Breakfast Star by Jacqueline Wilson - ISBN: 9780440867609
Light a Penny Candle by Maeve Binchy - ISBN: 9781787461536
The Last Days by Ali Millar - ISBN: 9781529109528
Educated by Tara Westover - ISBN: 9780099511021
The Pharmacist by Rochelle Atalla - ISBN: 9781529342147

To find more titles, visit our website

Creators & Guests

Host
Mostly Books
Award-winning indie bookshop in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.

What is Mostly Books Meets...?

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a podcast by the independent bookshop, Mostly Books. Booksellers from an award-winning indie bookshop chatting books and how they have shaped people's lives, with a whole bunch of people from the world of publishing - authors, poets, journalists and many more. Join us for the journey.

Sarah Dennis 0:24
Welcome to Mostly Books Meets. We the team at Mostly Books, an award-winning independent bookshop in Abingdon. In this podcast series, we'll be speaking to authors, journalists, poets, and a range of professionals from the world of publishing. We'll be asking about the books that are special to them, from childhood favourites to the book that changed their life and we hope you'll join us for the journey.

Jack Wrighton 1:09
It is our great pleasure to welcome onto the podcast this week, author Chloe Timms. Chloe Timms' debut novel The Seawomen was published in June of this year. The book follows Esther a young woman raised on an island within a deeply religious society, which long ago cut itself off from the mainland. fellow author Kirsty Logan described it as The Handmaid's Tale meets The Shape of Water. When she's not writing Chloe is a passionate disability rights campaigner and also hosts the podcast Confessions of a Debut Novelist, Chloe Timm's Welcome to Mostly Books Meets.

Chloe Timms 1:42
Hi Jack, thanks for having me.

Jack Wrighton 1:43
Our absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. So as you probably know, on the podcast we love talking to authors and people in the publishing industry about the books that they love the books that have spoken to them and the first question we always ask is the first book that they remember reading, so let's go into the past tell me about young Chloe and who she was.

Chloe Timms 2:07
I can say that young Chloe was a huge reader, absolutely loved reading and I mean, I imagine my parents read a lot to me, the only memory I really have of my parents reading to me is the book that I was obsessed with, which was Spot the Dog. I love Spot the Dog, you know, how I think about the videos as well and I think there was a video of me once watching Spot and getting really excited. For me, the author that I remember as being kind of the biggest love of my childhood was Jacqueline Wilson. I mean, you can't beat Jacqueline Wilson. She's an incredible author and I couldn't tell you how many of her books that I've read, I reckon it's gonna be over ten. But the one that stands out to me is The Bed and Breakfast Star, which is not her most well-known kids book. But it's one that I really felt attached to and it's about this dysfunctional family who kind of move around hotels and bed and breakfast because they don't have a house to live in and I think what Jacqueline Wilson does so well is these kind of gritty, almost dark family stories, but manages to make them child friendly and I have memories of me reading this book on holiday. It's also reading in the car, which is something I don't think many people can do without feeling sick. But I managed to be such a kind of addictive reader that I would read in the back of the car because I was so desperate to finish the book.

Jack Wrighton 3:32
That's a commitment to reading. I try that still sometimes of going, I can read on this bus or whatever. No, I'm okay these days. But as a child, I had terrible car sickness and that's the only time that comes back to me is when I'm silly enough to think oh, yeah, I'll read now. So obviously then, yeah, a voracious reader, you know, really yeah, consuming a lot of books and stories and yeah Jacqueline Wilson, obviously, she's still publishing today, we certainly regularly have her books in the shop and yes, I remember recently on I think it was on Tik Tok, actually, obviously, book tock has become a sort of a huge thing and people were sort of joking about the fact that oh, you know, they read all these books of the kid, but actually looking back, they realise how dark they are, and how, and I think there's a wonderful lack of, you know, sort of trying to shy away from certain subjects for children, because, you know, children are a lot more with it than we give them credit for.

Unknown Speaker 4:34
Yeah, I think I mean, she explores like, divorce and kind of domestic abuse and I mean, my parents divorced when I was about eight years old. So it was kind of nice to have books where even if my situation wasn't the same, that was kind of nice to see, not the typical family in and I think that's what Jacqueline Wilson does so well and even as I grew up kind of later in my childhood, and I read the kind of girls and love books, and they were about anorexia and bulimia, I think, and, and all sorts of topics that were quite mature, but she handles them in such a straightforward way and such an accessible way as well and I think that's what makes her such a great author and I can't think of any other author that really inspired me. I mean, I used to write when I was a child as well, I mean, I've always just been writing my own stories and I imagine that Jacqueline Wilson was one of those authors that I kind of dreamt of becoming really because they were so good.

Chloe Timms 4:34
Exactly and I think, as you were saying, that importance of seeing an experience, or something that sort of speaks to a child personally reflected in, in a book is so important and really, I think, again, it sort of encourages reading, because, of course, you know, in a lot of children's books, I think, you know, particularly back to kind of pre, you know, pre-Jacqueline Wilson as well, you know, childhood is, I think, usually, you know, certainly within the family or whatever is depicted as quite idyllic, almost, you know, the kind of ideal of what for and, of course, you know, no family adheres to this ideal and I think it's, you know, it's great that she's always reflected on, you know, as you say, the housing situation isn't, you know, isn't secure and of course, then that was brought over to TV when they televise things like Tracy Beaker and stuff. You know, it's, that's hugely important. It's something I talk to authors a lot on here, particularly children's authors, is that kind of increased awareness of, you know, all kinds of children, you know, finding themselves in books, or at least characters that have a similar sort of experience and how important that is.

Unknown Speaker 6:44
Yeah, obviously, I'm not a children's writer, but I think children's writing young adult authors write such brilliantly diverse books now and I think they're almost leaps ahead of adult fiction in a way because you are seeing a better reflection of society, whether it be race, sexuality, gender, disability, we're seeing their stories, and we're seeing them more in children's fiction than we are in adult. Think adult fiction needs to step up a little bit really.

Jack Wrighton 7:16
I completely agree. I think that's a very good point. I think, yeah, children's publishing has led the way and I think adult fiction needs to catch up. There's a gap between them now and I think yeah, absolutely. Then there needs to be a catch-up there. So Jacqueline Wilson, The Bed and Breakfast Star is one that stands out for you? Are there any other books, you know, sort of going into your teenage years? Where you some people have a sort of a dip in reading in their teenage years? You know, what was the case for you, were you a big reader then?

Chloe Timms 7:46
Yeah, so I think my dip was probably, I guess, late teens, I'm probably reckoning about 17 to maybe 20 when I kind of pretty much stopped reading altogether. But before then there's that kind of transitional phase where you're not reading children's books anymore, and you want that kind of adult book and I don't really think that YA was a thing when I was growing up. So I read... there are two books that really stand out for me that I read when I was, I think about 12 and one of those was the Shopaholic series of books by Sophie Consella. They are brilliant books. I absolutely adored them. I think they were the sort of books that I just wanted to devour at the time. And then the other book that really stands out to me, which was really quite a chunky book for a 12-year-old. And probably a very grown-up book for a 12-year-old was Maeve Binchy To Light a Penny Candle and I haven't revisited it but I know it's a kind of classic and Maeve Binchy is beloved, but I have never gone back and reread any of it because I kind of see it as this really special book in my life that really introduced me to adult fiction and was probably too grown up actually for a 12-year-old to read, but I was quite advanced in my kind of reading ability when I was young and so I remember taking it away with me, and really staying up late to finish it. I think I've stayed with my dad at the time and I must have been 12 or 13 Because I remember it was like the year of the early big brother was on TV and I remember that finishing and then I was like I'm gonna stay up and finish my Maeve Binchy, because I was just totally addicted to it and I almost don't want to revisit it encase it's not as good as I remember.

Jack Wrighton 9:33
That's always a worry, isn't it when you've really loved something, but I feel there's a period where sort of going back to it or that seems fine. But the moment you pass that, I don't know, you kind of mythologise it in your head and it feels like a shame almost to ruin that. Of course, you could go back and go oh, it's just as wonderful as I remember and there's no reason why it wouldn't be but of course, you know, there'll no doubt be bits that you didn't you know that you don't remember when you think oh, I, you know, and it'll be surprising and new, it probably be like reading a new book, you know, from the start.

Chloe Timms 10:07
Yeah, I don't really remember a huge amount of the plot, I just remember how it made me feel, and the kind of effects it had on me at the time. And I remember just it was, it was a long book, I think it's about 400 or 500 pages and that was probably the longest book I've ever read as a child. But I remember, I think I'd said to my mom, I need a book to read that's going to, and I think she'd seen in me that I was now ready to read a grown-up kind of book and so gave me that because I mean, obviously, I had a library card and I think at 12, you're allowed to move on to the adult section, and you're allowed to borrow 10 books instead of five, or whatever it was and again, I mean, the library was incredible and I wish I could remember what books I picked up there because again, I probably is probably reading books that are way too old to me and I wasn't mature enough for but because my reading level was at that point, I was desperate for, I guess more and more challenging books and books that were, I think at 12, I probably thought I was an adult at that point. So I was able to read those books, but other experiences, but I loved going into the adult section of the library and having all these books and, and it was like, I guess opening the... having the keys to a magical world, I suppose and having all these books and being in awe with them really knowing that I could know all these books for free. I mean, that's what's so amazing as well about libraries is that you can, you know, you can use them and pick from all these books and it is incredible and I think, and it's a shame that we've lost so many libraries over the last 10 years or so. But yeah, I mean, another great love of mine was the day at school where the book fair would come and you've got to pick some books and that was like the magic day.

Jack Wrighton 11:58
It is a magic day. We do that here to some schools, and it's so fun to work on that day, because the energy is just amazing and then it's interesting as well hearing you talk about, you know, being an advanced reader for your age, when you were 12. You know, that's something we come up a lot, obviously, we do you know, YA does sort of exist now. And it's a really, you know, it's a huge area for books setting, but we sort of have that, you know, have the attitude, you know, if a child likes the look of the book and kind of wants to give it a go, as long as they have all the information and their parents have all the information about what sort of might be in that, that actually that freedom to choose the book that you want to read is so important, because again, it's about, you know, keeping them reading, if you sort of say, oh, no, you should read this book. But as you say, some children do get to a point where you can see they really want to challenge and the reverse is true as well. I mean, you know, I'm dyslexic, and we have you know, dyslexic readers coming into the shop and sometimes there's a sort of a shame attached to maybe reading a book that seen as like, slightly younger, but I was, you know, for a long time reading books that were younger than my sort of actual age, but I was enjoying them and that's the key thing, you shouldn't be restricted by that idea.

Chloe Timms 13:09
I think that's sometimes the problem with school and I used to be a primary school teacher. So I know the challenges I face. But reading almost becomes a little bit like a chore or a little bit like a competition sometimes and I remember in... I think I was about 10 and I was really, really into the Horrible Histories, books, as so many children and I had borrowed I think, three Horrible Histories books in a row from my school library and I think there was a note from my teacher saying, you need to read something else next time and I remember thinking, why I'm really enjoying these books. I also, you know, you get a lot from Horrible Histories because you're learning the history side of it and they're fun and yeah, so you know, all those elements of it and the same with you know, I would read a lot of definitely most in the row, I'd read a couple of Roald Dahl in a row and I think I understand why they want children to have that range of books, and I understand the reasoning behind it. But I think to get children to read in the first place is a challenge and if you if they're enjoying something, why put a stop to that and why are you discouraging it, because that could be stopping them reading for good, you know, so I think whatever they're eating, I think I mean, even if it's the case of their reading on their phone, I don't see it as a bad thing. It's just a different way of reading. So yeah, so I think, like you said, sometimes it's that thing of thinking, Oh, that they should be reading something more complicated, more advanced but if they're having fun. I don't really see. I don't really see why. Yeah.

Jack Wrighton 14:43
That's the thing. It's, you know, it's about enjoyment and that's the most important thing and sort of skipping forward to today. You're an author, you run a podcast about you know, being a debut author as well. You know, what's your reading like today? You know, do you feel you have less time to reading? Or do you find you're reading more? But what's the situation?

Chloe Timms 15:04
I read a ridiculous amount I read about three books a week, sometimes I have to do a lot of reading for the podcast. So I'm usually reading a book a week for that. I am also reading to inform the next book that I'm working on. I read for fun as well. I have a ridiculous number of unread books on my shelves just because I buy books so often I can't resist. I also borrow from the library as well and so yes, I read, I would say probably about 130 books a year and I've read more this year, just simply because I'm reading more for the podcast and I probably read more books for that than I have done that are kind of books I've chosen. But I don't see it as a hardship because I absolutely love reading and also, reading for the podcast has meant I read books that I wouldn't normally read. So I'll read a genre that is not normally my taste or what I would choose and it's introduced me to authors that I wouldn't have possibly discovered otherwise. So it's been a joy really, and I also really enjoy audiobooks, mainly when I do embroidery, just for fun, usually at the weekend, and I stick on an audiobook and I find that I can concentrate on an audiobook when I'm doing embroidery, if I'm listening to an audiobook anywhere else, I can't concentrate so it has to be kind of quiet, when I'm doing something crafty with my hands. I couldn't really get myself immersed in the audiobook.

Jack Wrighton 16:40
Yes, I'm a recent convert to audiobooks, actually, because I found you've put me absolutely to shame because for me one book in a week is like, Oh, wow, like, I feel like I didn't know I feel like someone should give me like a badge or something. But I did it...

Chloe Timms 16:58
One book a week is good. I don't think that like, again, we shouldn't make it into a competitive thing because there shouldn't be a number. I mean, the way it really because as I said to you, when I sort of was 20, I'd kind of stopped really reading I maybe read one book in the summer, and that'd be it. But the way I kind of got back into it was I decided that basically, I was spending too much time staring at my screen or my phone. So I made it my aim to read for one hour every day, every single day and it's amazing how quickly you get through books, just from reading an hour a day and now I stick to my hour, but then I do read extra just simply because I have to read more at the moment. But yeah, sticking to an hour a day is amazing how many books you get through.

Jack Wrighton 17:45
it. That's a good yeah, having that. You know, that scheduled time? Yeah, that sounds like a good way of doing it. Because I sort of find I'm terrible for going oh, you know, ooh I'll read in five minutes, then I'll just just add, and then you know, or worse social media, I'd go on social media and I think no, where is this hour gone? Terrible. I think I saw from a blog of yours actually talking about like Twitter, like, I don't know, the draw of Twitter, when you should be writing.

Chloe Timms 18:18
Absolutely, Twitter is my nemesis really. I mean, it's even sometimes when I'm reading, I'll read for half an hour and then I'll think, oh I'll just check Twitter for a minute. But like you say, after 10 minutes that 10 minutes becomes an hour and you click on a link, and then you're reading an article or a blog post or you're replying to a message and then you suck your time away, which is why I made the conscious effort to say, okay, for one hour only, I'm going to put everything down.

Jack Wrighton 18:46
Absolutely, that's very important and, you know, with the finding the different formats as well, what works for you, you know, now I found, you know, audiobooks, I've realised actually, that works really well for me, because my thing is my, my eyes get tired very easily and actually, you know, just sort of sitting there and, you know, doing something else. I agree. It has to there has to be something else contemplative going on or I find on public transport, I sort of go into I don't know, sort of the zone where that's fine. Anywhere else, yeah, I can't, I find myself going away and I have to skip back by like, a minute because I might actually no, I haven't taken in any of what's happening. So yeah, I completely agree with that. So in terms of you're doing lots of reading for your podcasts, what's a book that you've read relatively recently that's really sort of, you know, stood out for you or comes to your mind?

Chloe Timms 19:40
Yeah, so the book I want to talk about is actually one I listened to an audio and it's The Last Days is by Ali Miller, and it's a memoir and memoir is something I've really got into in the last couple of years and again, I really, for me, audiobooks work best when they're non-fiction I think. I do struggle a little bit with fictional audio because it's really following it closely with a memoir, I think, often when it's someone else telling their story, there's something almost about it that feels like a radio show and I find that easier to concentrate over the key and I always used to think I've got no interest in memoir or autobiography or anything like that. and I suppose there used to be an association that it was all kind of celebrity autobiographies or biographies and then I can't remember where my kind of interest in memoir started. But I now have, it's become one of my favourite genres and I love listening to people's real-life stories or events that have happened to them, or something in particular, they're exploring in their identity and I've read some amazing memoirs, but The Last Days by Ali Miller is an exploration of her leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm really interested in kind of cults and religious organisations that are kind of on the extremist side and I'm particularly fascinated by how they work and how they attract people, but also where that line comes where people decide that it's not for them, or they want to get out of it, because often these organisations are pretty difficult to leave and Ali Miller's writing is so lyrical and beautiful, and I mean, she reads it herself, which makes it even more special. I think, when you're reading a memoir that's being read by the person that wrote it, there's so much emotion in there and that was one that really stood out for me lately and as I said, I particularly like memoirs, and I'm always looking for ones that are going to kind of tick my boxes in terms of the topic and this one really does.

Jack Wrighton 21:49
Yeah, that sounds like a really, yeah, a really interesting story and particularly, for me, my ear sort of pricked up then because my grandmother later on in life actually became a Jehovah's Witness, she passed away last year and we, you know, the family were close but there was an interesting dynamic there, because the rest of the family isn't religious. And I think religion, and its sort of social aspects or, you know, or for many different reasons is such an interesting area and such a fascinating subject to explore.

Chloe Timms 22:23
Definitely, I have always been interested in that the kind of psychology of it, I suppose, something when I was writing my novel, The Seawomen, I did a lot of research about people who had escaped or left these organisations, I read a lot of memoirs, actually, of women who had left particularly American memoirs, where they'd left like Scientology and things like that, because I just find A) I find it so fascinating, and why people join these societies in the first place. What is it that appeals to them, and whether it's kind of charismatic leaders or whether it's something about the structure that makes them fascinated, and the community I guess, and then also what tips them over the edge and what makes them reconsider whether that is their beliefs, or whether they see something in the outside world that they crave, and those are kind of themes that I exploited my writing as well. So it was really, I think, even though I'm not writing that book anymore, and I've moved on, I will always be drawn to those kinds of topics and I think I always watch the documentaries that are about a cult, and I'll always read the books that are about that, because I still find it interesting.

Jack Wrighton 23:36
We all have those subject areas where you see a book or a documentary, and you think sold! You know, Netflix or wherever, says, you know, knows you through the algorithm, and it's like, you're gonna like this and you're like, yeah, probably I am and then yes, because that makes me think of and of course, there has been a lot of interesting writing of that, particularly, I mean, I think there always has, but it feels like particularly in the sort of the five years because I think Educated by Tara Westover. incredible book. Yeah,

Chloe Timms 24:07
Oh that's an incredible book, I love that. Yeah.

Jack Wrighton 24:08
But yes, as you said, a lot of that was researched for The Seawomen which is already out and it sounds like you're you're now working on on something else, which is yes, yeah, I won't, I always feel like when an author says that you're so tempted to be like, Oh, what's that about? But then you're like, No, no, we're talking about the current book.

Chloe Timms 24:29
Yeah, it's early days and the content change a lot when you when you're working on a title. I won't say too much. But I think writers tend to often explore similar things in their books just because really, you have a lot of crossover with topics that interest you and themes that regularly make an appearance in your work just because that's what you enjoy writing about, I suppose.

Jack Wrighton 24:52
Yes, exactly. I think it's one of the joys of really actually reading several of an author's works is kind of seeing those common themes that crop up, I think that's, you know, writing is kind of a way of, you know, fiction or whatever is a kind of a way of understanding something I feel, you know, I feel a lot of writers, you know, write to kind of understand the world, even in kind of extreme fantasy, you know, I feel I feel it's all really a kind of a process of mulling things over and it's fun to see an author, you know, where you go, Oh, this particular subject, you know, really is something that they're kind of going over and, you know, it's part of part of the joy of it really.

Chloe Timms 25:31
Yeah, definitely. I think, even like you say, even if you're writing high fantasy, there are elements of current world politics or society and culture that creep in there. Whether you're intending to write about that or not, I think they do they do leak into your work.

Jack Wrighton 25:48
Yeah. The real world has a tenacious habit of kind of finding its way into everything, even if you want to go no, I want to ignore that for a while. It's kind of it's always there. So yes, obviously, you know, been reading for the research for the book, but also for your podcasts as well. Now, a big question, which I always feel slightly mean, asking and I say this almost every time on the podcasts and yeah, I ask it anyway, because I think it's a, it's a huge question and different author authors have different approaches to it and I find that just as interesting as well, which is a book that changed your life. Of course, for some, that could be several books, or they might just say they can't even pick a single book. But what's your reaction to that what comes to your mind?

Chloe Timms 26:31
My reaction, always feels like a really obvious choice, but it's a totally honest choice in that my book would be The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood and I think when I read it, which was probably when I was about 15, at school, and we studied it for school, we studied it for an exam. I had never read anything like it in my life. I didn't know fiction could do what it does and it's such a short book. It's such a concise book and I think Margaret Atwood's world-building is incredible and I really liked that she says that nothing in her book is fictional in a way, because everything she wrote, she based on something that's happened in history and the book has obviously become hugely popular again, because of the TV show and it's become in the kind of consciousness of everyone really, and it's talked about a lot when we talk about kind of the politics of women's bodies, and body autonomy and it has become a little bit of a kind of cliche and you see kind of women dressing up in the red outfits with the white hoods, and it has come it's become a little bit, I guess, overused, a bit kind of cheesy, in some ways. But for me, the book itself still means so much to me, because it has such a powerful impact on me when I was 14, and I just remember, I mean, I had an amazing English teacher at the time and she had such a passion for this novel as well and she would, you know, she'd pick a sentence on a page and we would spend 45 minutes discussing one sentence and I just, that's what I've always loved. I mean, I know that's what's put some people off reading, I think, the idea that in school, we have to analyse things to the degree. But then when you get a book like The Handmaid's Tale where there's so much space left for the reader, to fill in the gaps, and that's one thing I love about fiction and particularly, that's one thing I love about speculative fiction and I was having this conversation with another author recently, her name's Rachelle Atala and she's written a novel called The Pharmacist and her book does what The Handmaid's Tale does, which is doesn't tell you everything and there are gaps in there where the reader has to do a bit of work and music imagination, and you don't get all the answers and that's what I loved about The Handmaid's Tale is that, you know, even and hopefully this doesn't spoil it for anyone, but even at the ending, you don't really know exactly what happens and it's up to you to decide what you think has happened. I know she's written a sequel, which kind of spoiled it a little bit for me because I think that book is so... the book has always been so special for me, because I love that you don't get all the answers about what's happened to the world and why it is... why it's become this kind of regime and I like the idea that you've got to do the work a little bit and you've got to be able to imagine it for yourself and fill in the gaps and also, I liked that she had so many kind of references to biblical things that you then had to I mean, I remember my teacher saying in summer holidays, we have to go and read the Bible because we were then going to read The Handmaid's Tale and she wanted us to have biblical knowledge before we went and needless to say, I did not read the whole Bible But yeah, I just I just find there's so many layers to it and I mean, I can I've read it a couple of times now. Nothing beats the first time reading it where I had my incredible English teacher telling me, Well, letting us discuss various things and picking apart the words that mobile app would reviews and, yeah, I just, it really, totally shook up my idea of what fiction can be, and what it is, and I've never read a book like it and I don't know whether I'm ever going to feel the same about a book again, I just, I always feel a bit sad that the books almost become a little bit of a buzzword and a cliche now because I actually think it's special to me and I think it's, it's more than that and I think it's, it's a shame that it's become a little bit of a kind of, I guess, a white feminist cliche way to use it, rather than to engage with issues and just kind of go, Oh, we're living in Gilead where it's actually for some women, they have been more ostracised, and then Gilead, explore so yeah, I but I love the book and I have reread it recently. I reread it when I was writing my novel and just because, I mean, I'm grateful for the quote that Kirstie Logan gave where she compared my books to The Handmaid's Tale, I still I don't think it's anywhere as good as The Handmaid's Tale. But I did very much try to use the idea that Margaret Atwood has about using things that have happened in the world throughout history, and not kind of make anything up in that sense. In terms of the way women are treated because I think enough atrocities have happened to women that we don't need to push the boat any further.

Jack Wrighton 31:52
Yes, new ones don't need to be invented, when sort of human history unfortunately offers up a slew of examples and I think it's really interesting you to hear you talk about your love The Handmaid's Tale, but also kind of, you know, saying at the same time, but actually, in some ways it's become a cliche, or kind of, like, an easy shorthand for something that people that people kind of use, because I think actually, sometimes some of the most meaningful books to us, you can also have a kind of a difficult relationship with sometimes or there is a difficulty there, because you can say, Oh, actually, you know, I mean, anyone who I'm sure is really into books from a certain period of, you know, the past will go, Oh, I love these books, but actually, you know, there's loads in it, that's, you know, when looked through, you know, the lens of today is actually think more that, you know, there's something problematic there, or there's something that, you know, doesn't, doesn't work and I think that's a kind of another part of reading really, is that books are difficult things and, you know, particularly when they talk about people and issues, you know, like The Handmaid's Tale, as you say, you know, it's a piece of fiction, but everything in there you can you can find in history. So, you know, it has much to say about our world and kind of say about our society as any sort of non-fiction book. And that's always good. You know, that's always going to be difficult and that's always going to bring, bring things up. Going on to your book now for The Seawomen, you know, when did that idea sort of come into your head? When did you know that this was the book that you wanted to write?

Chloe Timms 33:31
I don't have like a light bulb moment for the kind of genesis of The Seawomen because it kind of came to me in different pieces, I suppose. So I'd written a poem in 2014 for short, fiction writing course I was doing, we had a poetry module, and I'm really not a poet, but I had to write a poem and I kind of come up with this idea of a woman on the edge of a coastline and I guess, a merman emerging from the water, but then never being able to get to each other because the woman can swim. She was married to a fisherman, and there was that kind of that angst, really and I'd had this idea for ages and I kept kind of revisiting it in my mind and thinking about it and then I was doing an MA at the University of Kent, and we had to do a piece of writing to submit for a workshop and so I decided to revisit this idea that I'd written in the poem, but turning into a short story and I started to think, okay, well, what kind of woman would live on the coast and not be able to swim? Because I'd really loved kind of these dystopian novels and the speculative fiction, I decided to kind of make this place that she lived into a regime or kind of controlled society and so I explore this idea of an island that were controlled by a cult and that's really where the idea began and it kind of started life as a short story and then one of my tutors said to me, this is too big for a short story, you're gonna try and attempt to turn it into a novel and at first of all, I was really anti the idea of writing a novel because I thought it's too much hard work and I thought, no there's something about this, but I really think has potential and I wrote a version of it and I think I got to about 40,000 words, and then there was something about it, it wasn't quite working and I realised what I needed to do was flip the perspective and start the story much earlier and start the story from Esther's point of view, which is now how the story is, and it's from Esther's point of view, and we will see her grow up on this island that is controlled by a religious cult and it didn't always used to be when it just clicked in my mind, it was just a kind of shady government type media in the background. But the more work I did on it, the more I realised that it works better when it was an antagonist that we could meet and that we could get to know and so then I created the character of father Jessup, who is the man that runs the coop, and he became one of my favourite characters to write actually, because kind of trying to embody someone that is, on the outside, very charismatic, very amiable. But inside is despicable was a really fun challenge to do and I ended up reading a lot of kind of speeches that were given by dictators, and reading a lot of things like Nazi propaganda and things like that to try and see the language that was used and try and create that in a different way and as I said, I read a lot of cult memoirs, to try and make my own religious cult. So it's not based on a particular religion, they have their own kind of holy book, and they have their own belief system and so the idea was one that changed. I always had a sense of what the island was. But I think that most writers, the details of it came at different points and I was quite influenced, as I said, by people like for Sophie Mackintosh, Kirsty Logan, who was kind enough to give me a quote for the front cover. Her writing really, really appeals to me, because I love the way she uses kind of folklore and fairy tale, and myth, but makes it really contemporary and makes it really fresh and that was something I really wanted to explore because there is a fantastical element to the novel, because the islanders believe that in the water are these creatures called the Seawomen and they believe that these are kind of selkie or mermaid type creatures who are basically a corrupting evil influence. So the women of the island are very heavily controlled, because basically, the men on the island want to preserve what they have, and preserve this sacred island that they have. So yeah, the inspiration came from a lot of different angles and I think I had some advice once from a tutor of mine that said, often when you're having ideas for things you want to write, sometimes what you think are separate ideas are actually the same idea. But you've got to kind of combine them. So I think that's kind of what happened.

Jack Wrighton 38:36
That's great, that's really interesting, I've never heard anything like, you know, speak to a lot of, you know, speak to a lot of writers on here. But I really like that the idea that, you know, if you have a couple of ideas going around your head, well, maybe actually, in some way, then they need to come together. That's quite a, because I'm sure as a writer, ideas sort of come in small forms all the time and actually, one of the big difficulties is deciding, well, what do I now sit down and actually write, you know, I can imagine, it's quite tempting to be like, Oh, but actually, I just write a sentence about, you know, I didn't know, do you find that? Or are you quite like, sort of...

Chloe Timms 39:19
I always tell people, I'm not an ideas person, which is probably not true. But for me, I find that because I know now what goes into a novel and how much you have to be committed to it and how many hours and how many times you have to read it, it has to be an idea that I think is really going to last that scrutiny and you want to be able to sit with it for a long time and I think if I have an idea that I don't think he's going to work for a novel, I've already dismissed it before I've even had long time to think about it. So I really have to spend a long time I'm not one of these writers that has 500 ideas, and then just has to get them down on paper. For me, the idea process is one that kind of evolves. So I'll read something and that interests me, but then I'll sit with it for a while. It doesn't kind of spiral from that one thought it takes time, I think almost like planting a seed and watching it grow. Ideas are a bit like that you have to, and I think, because I read a lot, and because I am a writer that when I'm writing my novel, I read a lot. I know of some writers that don't read at all when they're writing, but I find that it's kind of like, my fuel and when I'm reading, it's almost like, part of my brain is still working on my book and so I kind of feel that as I'm reading someone else's book, my brain starts firing and going, what about this? What about this? And sometimes I have to put a book down, and then go back to my writing. Because it's not that I've read something that I want to copy or, but it's just something about other people's writing, and particularly when they're a writer that really inspires me and the language that they use is really evocative, that somehow sets off my slight synapses and starts pinging in my brain, and I have to then go back to my work and put the book away for a while.

Jack Wrighton 41:25
I know, I completely understand that, because I think we have, you know, people in the shop, who say, Oh, I love reading but then make a comment to suggest that they're not a creative person in any way and I'm like, well, but reading is creative, you know, it's an act of creation, you know, it's a relationship between the writer and the reader and, you know, the writer can describe the scene, but it's you in your head that kind of adds in, it's like you talking about this writing that allows the reader to fill in the gaps. I mean, it all does in a way, because, you know, if you say, I didn't know, they're in a house, you know, you might not necessarily describe every detail, so your brain has to kind of fill gaps.

Chloe Timms 42:07
Yeah, I love that and I think sometimes it's hard as a writer to remember that readers do that all the time and quite often I do sometimes do mentoring and workshops and I often and leaving feedback from people that says, trust your reader, they don't need to know this and pare back a little bit. I mean, I do it too where I want to describe something more, or I want to really give someone... almost stage directions, I guess. But what you forget is that a lot of readers as they're reading out, almost playing the movie in their head, and you're just giving them bits of the script, and they fill in the rest and I love that. It's the kind of the relationship between the reader and the writer and I have, the thing I've enjoyed most about the being published is hearing from readers and getting feedback where they say, Oh, this is my favourite scene and my favourite character and I have so many readers, because, again, without giving anything away, the ending of my book is left quite open and I've had so many readers tell me their version of the end and that is one of my favourite things because I have to say it frustrates... Well, my best friend has text me, telling me her version and then she said, and now tell me what actually happens and my reply was, No, I'm not telling you what actually happens, because it doesn't matter what I think the important part is what you think is the ending, which didn't please her because she thought she had exclusive access to the author and wanted the final say on what actually happens. But, I mean, I do have my own version and I have my own interpretation of the ending, but I much prefer not telling people and I much prefer hearing their version because, to me, that's far more satisfying to know that they thought about it, and they have an emotional response to how they want it to end and I think anything I say would spoil that a little bit.

Jack Wrighton 44:00
And that's really interesting, because, you know, people have people do get this idea of there being a sort of an official ending, and the author is the kind of the only source of kind of the true elements of the story and I think, you know, particularly in the world of the internet fan fiction stuff, you know...

Chloe Timms 44:22
Oh yeah, and I had this argument with my editor, because my editor had a very different idea of what happens after the ending than I do and we had an argument, not an argument, but a rational argument about the end, and my editor kept changing a word and I kept changing it back and they change it again, I change it back, because to me, changing that particular phrase, altered what I thought it should be interpreted as, but most of them joked and said, Well, I don't care what you said the ending is, I'm gonna release fanfiction to tell everyone the real ending so if they want to write their own fanfiction of the end I'm more than happy. But yeah, like you say to me that, I mean, I've written fanfiction, I love the idea of fans interacting with fiction. I mean, that's what you create for, you create to have readers interact with and have responses to your work, I wouldn't want people to shut the book and go, okay, that's done and just want people to complete, you want it to resonate with people and for them to be thinking about your characters and if I like stories where everything's not tied up neatly with a bow, I'd like there to be an element of an open openness and that's been the best part it's hearing and I always wonder how people interpret my answers, because I never say, Oh, yes, you're correct, that is the ending, because often it isn't that their version is not my version, but I don't want to spoil their enjoyment of their interpretation of it, I'm quite happy to, to hear their version and I support them. However they want it to, to fit, that's fine by me.

Jack Wrighton 46:06
And do you think as well, we've sort of books you know, like The Handmaid's Tale, or yours, The Seawomen where these kinds of these gaps are left, but also because of the subject matter because you know, it's through these stories, you're kind of exploring, you know, oppression in the real world, or kind of, you know, the reality of people's lives in the real world. But actually, those gaps, where someone's imagination can kind of fill them, if it was a kind of close, no, this is the official story, it has a beginning in the end, you know, and I've said that, that suggests a kind of closed off-ness a kind of an official view, you talk about in your book that they have their own version of like a sort of, you know, scripture, it becomes almost scripture, then like this is the only word but actually having that freedom allows the reader to kind of think about, well, how did the words in this book kind of relate to my life or like the world I live in? And I didn't know that that freedom to imagine is kind of important there.

Chloe Timms 47:02
Yeah, absolutely, because I think that often when we write about and when we witness societies that are oppressive or regimes that are very controlling, there is no easy end, there is no quick solution to these things being disbanded or there being a revolution or change. Change doesn't happen overnight and that's why I think my ending is very much left open because if I resolved everything in the book, I think it'd be really unsatisfying and I think that it would feel really inauthentic and I think the same with The Handmaid's Tale, you can't suddenly have Offred, you know, overthrow the government, and suddenly, everything has gone back to normal, because also society would still be completely different. There is no return to normal and I think that's the same when you're trying to reflect the world that you live in, even if you're doing it under a slightly fantastical lens. We are only living in the present. We don't know what's going to happen in 10 years, 20 years time, we don't know what society is gonna look like, we cannot solve the problems that we have in our world by, you know, a quick fix. So I think leaving it open, leaves it more realistic anyway and I think, I think over-explaining things or trying to find an obvious or a simple answer would be unsatisfying to read and like I said, when I was having this conversation with Michelle Atala about her novel, The Pharmacist, and she said, I don't know, hers is set in a nuclear bunker and she says, I don't know what's gone on in the outside world and, again, her readers, I think, feel the same frustrations. But does it matter? Because actually, it's letting the readers decide, is the most exciting part about fiction, I think is letting your imagination run wild and that's what we enjoy as authors and that's hopefully what readers enjoy as well.

Jack Wrighton 49:05
Yes, absolutely. I think that yeah, I completely agree. I think that for me that freedom, those gaps, they're the most exciting thing.

Chloe Timms 49:14
I have had a lot of feedback of people saying, even though to me, the ending is open, I've had a lot of people because they have such an emotional response and they build in their head, their own ideas of what happens next. A lot of people have said that they found the ending very satisfying, but I wonder whether that's because they have interpreted it, how they want it to end possibly, and then that's good because I haven't disappointed anyone.

Jack Wrighton 49:39
Well, of course The Seawomen is out right now, it's out in the world. As a debut novelist like how does that feel?

Chloe Timms 49:46
Yeah, I've loved hearing from people. Hearing from readers has been my favourite aspect of the whole thing and there's nothing that beats someone excitedly sending you a message and strangers sending me messages to say how much they've enjoyed it or how I actually really liked a particular character and I've had book clubs that have read it and had deep discussions about it and that's just been incredible and so much fun.

Jack Wrighton 50:09
Yes, yeah, suddenly having that sort of organic response as well because, you know, if you give a book to a friend, you know, that their response either way, you know, it's been prompted, but when someone's found a book, on their own, or maybe with, you know, with the help of a bookseller, and then decided to reach out to you, there's a lot of chances there that that might not have happened, they could have reached for a different book, or they might have decided not to reach out. I mean, what a wonderful thing that must be just so rewarding. Yeah, so exciting.

Chloe Timms 50:44
Yes, that's definitely the best part, I don't think anything's gonna be that really, I think, hearing from people that you don't even know, but I think writing is so personal and it's a... it's quite intimate really to be baring your brain into someone else's brain I suppose and that's such a fun thing to have people say that they read it, and I love hearing people discuss it because I find it quite funny because to me, it's just a little thing I made up. So discussing it as a real living thing with characters that exist to them, almost like real people, as has been an incredible experience and yeah, I'm really excited and if anyone has any theories about the ending, and that they want to tell me please let me know because I love hearing them.

Jack Wrighton 51:33
Oh that's good. Well, as I said, it's it's out now it's available in bookshops, in libraries, wherever you get your books from, it will be available there and it's certainly available at Mostly Books, both on our website and in that store as well and as you heard from Chloe herself, you know, if you read it, if you have any of those theories, you know, reach out, let her know, you know, you don't have to hold back it doesn't have to just stay just with you. She you know she would love to hear them. Chloe also, as we previously mentioned, runs the podcast Confessions of a Debut Novelist, so check that out as well. Chloe Timms, thank you so much for joining us on Mostly Books Meets.

Chloe Timms 52:10
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Jack Wrighton 52:12
Thank you so much.

Sarah Dennis 52:15
All of the books mentioned during the podcast are available to buy for the Mostly Books website. This podcast has been presented and produced by members of the team mostly both in Abingdon. If you enjoyed what you heard, please rate review and subscribe, because apparently it helps people find us.