The Marriage365 Podcast

Ever feel like you can’t bring up a problem without your spouse getting defensive? One minute you’re trying to have a conversation, and the next you’re arguing about your tone, defending your intentions, or wondering how things got so sideways.
In this episode, Casey and Meygan Caston are breaking down why defensiveness shows up in marriage. You’ll learn how to approach difficult conversations without triggering a battle, respond when your spouse gets defensive, and recognize your own defensive patterns, too.

Resources in this episode:
Book a coaching session with Casey, Meygan, or one of the Marriage365 coaches here.
Get access to videos, worksheets, challenges, and more free resources in Marriage365 membership.

Want more practical tools for your marriage? Follow Marriage365 on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.

Creators and Guests

Host
Casey Caston
Host
Meygan Caston

What is The Marriage365 Podcast?

The Marriage365 Podcast is hosted by marriage coaches Casey and Meygan Caston, who share honest conversations and practical tools you can use in your relationship today. Each episode is designed to help you communicate better, work through conflict, rebuild trust, deepen intimacy, and feel connected again.

Whether your marriage is thriving, struggling, or stuck in the roommate phase, you’ll walk away with clear, practical steps toward a healthier, stronger marriage.

Because a great marriage doesn’t happen by accident. It’s built one choice, one conversation, and one day at a time.

Meygan:

Have you shared something with your spouse and you can tell they took it personally? And then rather than taking ownership or responsibility or even responding in a healthy way, they do all sorts of unhealthy behaviors like blame shift or play the victim, gaslight you, or even point out the things that you're doing wrong. In this episode, we're going to break down all things defensiveness.

Casey:

Welcome to the Marriage365 Podcast. We're your hosts, Casey and Meygan Caston. And in a world that is very confused about love, relationships and marriage, we're going to give you clarity and the next steps for you to build a thriving marriage so you can experience the joy of connection.

Meygan:

So let's define what is defensiveness. This is how Casey and I describe it. It's protecting yourself from a perceived attack. Now this doesn't necessarily mean that your spouse is actually attacking you. Okay?

Meygan:

It's a perceived attack. So they they could be attacking you. Their words could be sharp, their tone, their body language. You're like, I know I am being attacked right now emotionally. But it also can be a perceived attack.

Meygan:

You feel like they're attacking you even if they're not.

Casey:

Right. This is where a lot of spouses want to contend. My intentions were good but the other person is receiving it as an attack. I think we all have a survival instinct. I mean, that's that's kept us alive for generations.

Casey:

Right? I mean, I get pretty defensive around bears. I don't know about you.

Meygan:

Have you been around bears before?

Casey:

No. But if I did if I did see them.

Meygan:

Oh, yeah. If I saw a bear, I'd be freaking out.

Casey:

How about coyotes? We have a lot of coyotes in our

Meygan:

We do.

Casey:

Where we live. So... And I think it's great. Right? I mean, you should be able to feel that scent...

Casey:

Heightened sense of like, I'm going to go in protection mode. When we feel that sense of physical danger, we go into fight or flight. And you know, either you're gonna try to outrun your opponent or we're gonna wrestle into submission like a bear.

Meygan:

Yeah. If I saw a bear, I would not wrestle it. I would run away. So I'd go into flight. I do know there are people who go into fight.

Casey:

I'm gonna wrestle grizzly. But, know, the thing is fascinating is our body does not differentiate between a physical threat or an emotional threat. So when we feel like our partners coming out to attack us, we get... We actually go through the same response as if a grizzly is walking through the door.

Meygan:

We still get into fight or flight. It's just emotionally.

Casey:

And that's where we... You've you've heard the term flooded, like I'm flooded right now. It's literally meaning that your body is going through some physiological changes where blood drains from the brain, specifically the prefrontal cortex first place to go, which is where we do all of our listening, creative thought processes and it moves to the extremities because we're ready for that fight. And so defensiveness is where we we move in marriage when we perceive our spouse is coming after us. So So what we wanted to do is actually break down like, how does this look?

Casey:

What does this look like in marriage?

Meygan:

Because not all defensiveness shows up the same.

Casey:

Yeah. It's not like it come... Yeah. Shows in one flavor.

Meygan:

There's very 31 flavors. There's 31 flavors. There's probably even more than that. I mean, we're gonna talk about the most common ones, but we wanna give you examples. So you know exactly what this looks like.

Meygan:

Because I think a lot of us will throw out, oh, my spouse is defensive, but to actually have language to be able to put around it is helpful.

Casey:

All right, the first example we're gonna talk about and probably the most common is blaming. So when a partner responds like, you know, that's not my fault or I didn't do anything wrong, that wasn't me. What happens is someone's getting defensive and they are... They don't wanna take responsibility or accountability. So they kind of start to shift blame on something else other than them.

Casey:

So example, if you approached your spouse and you know, they had said something out of anger, you know, they would probably respond with, well, I wouldn't have said that if you actually acted the way you acted or I I wouldn't have yelled if you weren't yelling yourself. And so...

Meygan:

There's always blame. It's always someone else's fault or something's fault.

Casey:

Yeah. I would say, I find this happening often with me when I have been late to stuff where I've I feel like I've always said, oh, well, you know, traffic, it took me too long or...

Meygan:

Mhmm.

Casey:

It's just a way of me being defensive. Like, I don't want to be held accountable the fact that I was late.

Meygan:

Versus just going, you're right. I was late.

Casey:

Because it makes me look bad.

Meygan:

Mhmm. Alright. Another example is counter attack. This is when we lash out and try to one up our spouse. So let's say, you know, you bring up your spouse and that they're spending too much money.

Meygan:

Right? Like, hey, I feel like we haven't been respecting our budget. And then all of a sudden your spouse responds with, well, you think I'm spending too much money? Let's talk about how much time you spend on your stupid phone. Wait.

Meygan:

Hold on. We weren't even talking about phones. We're talking about money. It it's often with people who are ready to attack. It's like they're ready in battle.

Meygan:

These are the fighters. It's rarely or ever about the issue at hand. Defensiveness comes out. It... They're trying to bring up something worse, something different, or something bigger that their spouse is doing.

Meygan:

And it's like a different topic in general most of the time.

Casey:

And sadly, if if you brought something up about money, we need to... We still need to talk about it.

Meygan:

About money. But now we're talking about the stupid phone. Yeah. And so this is just like, it's almost like they have ammunition ready to go in like a list Mhmm. Of things that they're gonna try to attack you with, of all the things that you're doing wrong.

Meygan:

That is a major common form of defensiveness.

Casey:

Do you feel like you do the counter attack? Because you are the the, you know

Meygan:

The fighter.

Casey:

Fighter.

Meygan:

Yeah. Yes. Okay. In full transparency, Casey and I chose these examples of typically ones that we find ourselves more guilty of. Yeah.

Meygan:

So, yes, as you are a blamer, I am a counter attacker.

Casey:

Okay. Well, the next one is like capital c Casey, when we talk about how avoid, defensiveness comes out, and that is avoiding issues. It's a way of being defensive. Right? We're gonna actually stay away from all direct confrontation at any costs in order to keep some sort of peace.

Casey:

Right? So this is me like early on in our marriage, I would get so agitated and like restless. I'd be staring at the clock. Like, can we get this over with?

Meygan:

You only wanted to show up for the fun and the sex and the date nights. See, anything hard, difficult was really hard, so you would avoid it.

Casey:

Yep.

Meygan:

And going back to fight or flight, this is a flight. If you're a fighter Mhmm. A lot of fighters, they just avoid. It is a form of defensiveness people.

Casey:

And I will say most most men are avoiders. Mhmm. When it comes to emotional conflict in relationship.

Meygan:

People pleasers are often avoiders as well.

Casey:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. But here's the thing, in the most extreme cases, I think, you know, we've we've heard from people in coaching situations where they'll literally actually just walk out the front door.

Meygan:

Like during the conversation.

Casey:

During conversation. Because they just cannot handle that level of confrontation. So the way they become defensive Mhmm. Is they just avoid it. Now, I I grew up in a home where, you know, no one ever had the difficult conversations.

Casey:

So even though people were talking behind closed doors, I never saw conflict handled in a healthy way. So when it came to our marriage and in my dating years, never really had like this direct confrontation with any of my girlfriends. Then we get married and all of a sudden, you're the fighter so you're like, hey, we need to talk about this. It freaked me out.

Meygan:

Yeah. You would even say things like, I don't wanna talk about this right now or you know what, I'm just not even gonna go there.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

Those are all very avoidant and defensive tactics.

Casey:

Mhmm.

Meygan:

And of course, the person that's a fighter that's wanting to talk about it is dying inside because they're like, great. Well, I can't force you.

Casey:

Yeah. And I I just wanna say because I I... We see this, when our own marriage and ourselves and with the people we work with is, you know, the avoider, it's not that they don't care about the relationship. They just don't know how to engage.

Meygan:

Well, again, fight or flight. If if you feel attacked, your response is flight naturally.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

It still is till this day. My response is fight. Now with a bear, I think I'd be flight. I don't know. I've never seen a bear still.

Meygan:

So Okay. Alright. Let's talk about gaslighting. Man, has this word become very viral, popular, misunderstood by many people, overused, but this is really when your spouse is making you question your own reality. They make you question your own feelings, your own perspective.

Meygan:

You know, you're delusional. You're always sensitive. I never said that you're crazy. This is all in your head. Listen, that never happened.

Meygan:

I don't know where you were, who you were talking to, but that wasn't me. And so then you walk away and you're like, am I crazy? Am I, is this, am I, did I dream this? Even though you're like, no, this is real. And so it's the complete opposite of empathy.

Meygan:

And this has become definitely a more common tactic of defensiveness where if I make my spouse feel crazy, then hopefully they'll stop. And again, I don't have to be accountable.

Casey:

Well... And I I do feel like gaslighting is a form of blaming. Right?

Meygan:

Yeah. It's just a very specific... It's it's attacking and making someone feel crazy. We're blame blame... You blame for being late.

Meygan:

You blame traffic.

Casey:

Sure.

Meygan:

You blame friends. Is...

Casey:

Blaming someone else's Reality. Whole like... Yeah.

Meygan:

You're you're questioning making them feel crazy for feeling the way they feel.

Casey:

Yeah. Yes. Not good.

Meygan:

Another form of defensiveness is playing the victim. Well, I guess it's always my fault. I'm always the problem. People who play the victim, they try to express helplessness to get more sympathy. And guess what?

Meygan:

Avoid responsibility. They try to make you feel bad for them rather than deal with the actual issue. I'm just so broken. I'm so messy. I can't believe that you're still married to me.

Meygan:

I have I have all these things happening in my life, and I'm just surviving. And what this is is manipulation. It is so toxic. It's so defensive because, again, there might be an issue of we need to talk about phone usage. We need to talk about parenting.

Meygan:

We need to talk about our budget. And now it's, Ugh, I know I'm just so bad at budgeting and I'm just... I'm such a loser. And they're hoping to get your sympathy. That's what they want.

Meygan:

They want to inflict guilt. They want to avoid accountability. And and we're seeing this more and more with younger generations. And a lot of people who have gotten married in the last, you know, ten, fifteen years. And we're seeing this, I feel like more than we've ever seen it really in the last couple of years.

Meygan:

Lots of playing the victim. Well, I guess this is just my fault and I'm just I'm just weak and I'm just imperfect.

Casey:

Yeah. It's such a disempowered state to be in. Now words mean a lot to Meygan and I because words create the worlds we live in. So when I hear people say, well, is what it is. I I feel like that's one of those statements.

Casey:

It's just like...

Meygan:

And playing the victim is something that I wanna believe. A lot of people don't realize they're doing it because they genuinely have guilt and shame around things, but then it becomes a pattern. And then it's like, wow, every time we go to talking about something hard, somehow you play the victim. I show you empathy and compassion. And, again, we never talked about the issue, and we made it all about you.

Meygan:

And so playing the victim, they really are soaking up. They want all of the empathy, all of the sympathy, all of the compassion so that now you feel sorry for them. And there's there's no accountability.

Casey:

Okay. What do you think playing the victim makes me think about something that I do often, which is I can... I catastrophize, like thinking about parenting, it's like, well, maybe I just shouldn't be engaged. Maybe I should... You know...

Meygan:

I'm such a bad dad.

Casey:

I'm such a bad dad. And the self talk that can often happen. Do you think that's also playing the victim or do you think that's something different? Because I think when I've been called out for like, oh, well, know, something about parenting, you know, I think I've tended to think that the world is doomed and so am I.

Meygan:

Mhmm. I think it could be both.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

I do see that with you. Think catastrophizing is definitely one very specific pain technique that we go to when we're feeling overwhelmed. But I do think playing the victim is more, when we're talking about defensiveness. I want... If so, if you're playing the victim, let's say you're like, oh, I'm the horrible dad.

Meygan:

You're wanting me to step in and go, no, you're not. You're the world's best dad.

Casey:

And

Meygan:

Yeah. Really, unto the core, that's what you're wanting. But here's the issue, is that if we're talking about a parenting issue, let's say you didn't follow through with the consequence that you were supposed to follow through with with the kids. We're we're not dealing with that issue. We're dealing with...

Meygan:

You're just being told that you're a great dad.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

It's a it's a really interesting defensive technique.

Casey:

It it's... Yeah. It's a very... It's like a passive aggressive way of of coercing your partner to go. Yes.

Casey:

No. No. No. You're... It's not that bad.

Meygan:

It's not that bad. Babe, I love you. Oh my gosh. You're so good.

Casey:

That's why I was think playing victim. You could probably laterally move over to catastrophizing.

Meygan:

Well, if your spouse has ever said, I'm the worst husband. I'm the worst wife. I can't believe you don't love me. They are playing the victim and what they're wanting under that is for them to not have to hold themselves accountable. That's why they're...

Meygan:

We're talking about defensiveness and that for you to come and swoop in and make them feel better.

Casey:

Alright. The next way defensiveness comes out is actually deflecting with humor.

Meygan:

This is both of us. We both can do this one.

Casey:

Yes. When early on in our marriage, we used sarcasm because I I think when we're young, that's just how we talked.

Meygan:

Okay. I'm gonna disagree and say, I think we can still use sarcasm. But you and I are very sarcastic people, and I believe... I'm gonna... Oh, here.

Meygan:

Let me talk for myself.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

I believe that I can still use sarcasm as a way to defend myself. I'll just speak for myself.

Casey:

Well, we... I I would just say that we would say things, but there were subtle digs. And

Meygan:

I... You don't think we still do that sometimes? Okay. I do. You do?

Meygan:

I mean, I mean, we're laughing because it's our own marriage, but Yeah. We laugh. I mean, we're sarcastic people. I I... Okay.

Casey:

Well Well Let's move on. I feel very uncomfortable with you confronting me. And so for me, humor was a way to kind of diffuse that. Mhmm. You know, kind of avoid this, the weightiness of this conversation we're having.

Casey:

And it's interesting because I saw one of my family members who I really looked up to used humor and sarcasm so much with his family. Now I wasn't in his marriage and I wasn't one of his kids. So from the outside, was like, this guy is so funny. Mhmm. Like...

Casey:

But years went by and it it eroded and destroyed his marriage and his relationships with his kids because that humor rather than dealing with things directly Mhmm. Was was actually this... Yeah. This dig at someone.

Meygan:

And someone who uses a lot of humor during conflict, they're extremely uncomfortable.

Casey:

Yes.

Meygan:

I I wanna I wanna give grace to any of you listening thinking, well, shoot, that's me. I understand. It's... It can be extremely uncomfortable. Sarcasm.

Meygan:

Sarcasm, it can be a wonderful thing in marriage, but only for high trust couples, not low trust couples. And sarcasm is never good during a conflict.

Casey:

Well, sarcasm could be playful banter between a couple, but if they're thriving, not not if they're high odds.

Meygan:

High trust. We call it if you're in a high trust marriage

Casey:

There you go.

Meygan:

Sarcasm, love it, a plus, do it. Low trust marriage, hurting marriage or during conflict, sarcasm doesn't belong. But yeah, this is definitely a defense mechanism.

Casey:

Yeah. Again, when something's brought up, that's hard. I've also seen this several times during our intensive. We're talking about hard stories and it's kind of this like laughter that's you can tell that that's their tell being uncomfortable.

Meygan:

Another form of defensiveness is justifying your actions. This is me. My hand is raised. These are people who often are explainers. We want to offer that explanation.

Meygan:

We want to justify our behavior rather than acknowledging the impact it had on our spouse. And so I didn't mean to hurt you. Let me tell you the whole story. Let me give you the details and the backstory and what happened three, four, five days ago that led me to this moment. We wanna give you context.

Meygan:

Right? I screamed back and lost my temper because I just didn't feel like you were giving me space. There's always a justification. There is always an excuse. There is always a reason.

Meygan:

And the problem is, is that you're not really holding yourself accountable. We wanna rationalize it. Right? We wanna avoid taking responsibility. And I'm just gonna say, think this is the most common one that I do in my marriage because of this.

Meygan:

I don't intentionally hurt you. I don't wake up trying to make you mad. And we're going to talk about this later, but intent versus impact is so important because I've had to learn even though my intentions are good, I can still have a negative impact with how I show up.

Casey:

Yep. I often have sat through many lectures that you've given me about this is a story. Let me tell you everything about it. But you're right. It's it's a defensive mechanism that's saying, listen, I don't need...

Casey:

I can't take responsibility for how I impacted you because I had the best heart possible.

Meygan:

Yep. There is a story that explains why I yelled. And I just wanna say I'm really sorry because I know that I definitely can do this.

Casey:

Yes. We... By the way, we're laughing because this is our marriage. This is stuff... But this is also stuff we've processed.

Casey:

So it's not a trigger anymore. I know that you lecture. I know that you interrupt me. I know that I... Know that I avoid.

Casey:

Mhmm. Now instead of like getting funny enough defensive about these things.

Meygan:

Getting defensive about defensiveness.

Casey:

What we do is we recognize in the moment that this is what's happening and then we play it out.

Meygan:

Yeah. Well, and I would say too, everyone gets defensive, no one is immune from this conversation. Alright.

Casey:

The last one we wanna unpack is this righteous indignation. I know more than you, Meygan. You know what? I feel like this is every parent from a teenager knows this one really well because what are your teenagers say? Dad, dad, I know.

Meygan:

I know mom.

Casey:

I got this. Okay. You don't know, you don't understand our generation. And so there's... Whenever we're providing some critique or some sort of, you know, I wanna need to talk to you about some sort of issue.

Casey:

When we're defensive, we can come across as like we've got this sense of moral superiority. Like, hey, listen, I've got more education than you. I'm smarter than you. This is what I do for work. So then the other person feels small compared to you, right?

Meygan:

We see this often when someone's married to a therapist. Oh boy. When we're coaching people is therapist is like, I studied this, This is what I eat, breathe, and sleep. I know more than you. Okay.

Meygan:

Well, might be true book wise, but that doesn't, that's not the way to go about marriage problems. Right? I see this a lot of times when women who homeschool the kids or who are stay at home moms, when they're trying to deal with a parenting thing, like, listen, I know the kids more than you. I know you don't know. That is righteous indignation.

Meygan:

That is saying I am better than you, whether you're using those words or not. I am better than you. I am more knowledgeable. I know. And it's the way that you're coming across to your spouses.

Meygan:

You are less than you don't know. And I know I am more righteous than you.

Casey:

I've seen this in religious circles and to be honest with you, I have done this myself is like, well, you know what? I've read more scripture than you or God told me this. Like...

Meygan:

How do you argue with that? God didn't tell you?

Casey:

Ultimate, you know, ace high card is like, well, God told me, well, yeah, I can't refute that.

Meygan:

Oh, okay. Here's another example. I've had men and women who have been like CPAs, tax accountants, things like that. And so they get to their budget and that person who, yes, did go to school for that, has a degree in that wonderful. It's the way they're coming across.

Meygan:

And so the way that they get defensive is like, but listen, I, you don't need to tell me how to do our budget. I know I, I already, babe, this is what I do for work. And so righteous indignation is an interesting one because it is this moral superior... Superiority of like, I'm better than you. I know more than you.

Meygan:

I'm smarter. Again, whether you're saying those words or it's just the way that you're coming across, it is a form of defensiveness. So I wanna challenge you. I want you to rate yourself on a scale of one to 10. How defensive are you in your marriage or with your kids or at work or with your family?

Meygan:

And if you're thinking, oh, I don't get defensive, then you're already being defensive. Yeah. Because we're all defensive. Every single one of us, we've admitted it here. Just admit it.

Meygan:

Don't get defensive about being defensive.

Casey:

And just like Meygan and I were talking about, like, I think we need to... I wanna unpack why someone gets defensive because as Meygan and I have processed, these are the ways that we show up in our marriage. It's never gonna change that I'm gonna be, you know, an avoider. I'm always gonna naturally default to that.

Meygan:

However, you're not as avoidant as you used to be.

Casey:

Well, that's what I was saying. Self awareness is key here. Because the more you know that that this is my inclement... Inclination, then you'll have an opportunity to actually stop yourself before you go down that road. If you know you're an explainer, you know, and I know that then we can kinda go, hey, no need to explain.

Meygan:

Yeah. Or yeah, you can call me out on it in love. I can I can know and recognize it on myself? So

Casey:

the key here is the more you are defensive about the way you are defensive, the more defensive you will be.

Meygan:

And nothing will change. Nothing will ever change. You will always stay defensive Yeah. If you're not willing to admit it.

Casey:

So it's time to hug the cactus. This is a part of you that's always gonna be that way and so it's okay.

Meygan:

And so underneath defensiveness, there are reasons why. There's actually motivation behind your behavior that's causing you to become defensive.

Casey:

One more thing too I wanna share is like, I think the more that you are self aware and the more you are spousal aware, I think that's gonna instill some compassion. Like, you know this about your partner, you know that this is something they struggle with. Okay. Great. Like, rather than be critical about it.

Casey:

Mhmm. We need to be compassionate that every single one of us has these amazing strengths and every strength has a shadow sign.

Meygan:

Mhmm.

Casey:

Meaning we all have weaknesses.

Meygan:

Alright. So let's talk about some reasons why we get defensive. Number one, maybe your spouse's parents were defensive. It was their norm growing up. They saw their mom and their dad and their siblings never hold themselves accountable for their mistakes.

Meygan:

So a lot of times, if that's how you were raised and that's what was modeled to you, you grow up and you just don't even know what healthy accountability looks like. You don't even know what an apology looks like because mom and dad, guess what? Never held themselves accountable. It's not an excuse, but it could be the explanation as to why your husband or your wife gets defensive.

Casey:

You know, we were working with a client who... Whose parents were the sweetest people ever, but they had no emotional depth and no one ever took accountability for everything. It's interesting that people either follow in their parents footsteps or they go the exact opposite and they're like, I wanna deal with everything. Yeah.

Meygan:

We stuffed everything under the carpet. I'm not gonna be that. I'm gonna talk So about it

Casey:

just thinking about your spouse's parents. Mhmm. Do they take ownership? Have they apologized?

Meygan:

Are they defensive people themselves? Was this normalized?

Casey:

Yeah. Alright. Another reason why people are defensive is because they don't wanna deal with the consequences. Hello, this one's me. I got in trouble so much growing up.

Casey:

I went to nine different schools, kindergarten through junior high, nine different schools. I got kicked out of every like t ball soccer day cares. And so for me, like this is absolutely something that still is like the residue from my childhood is I don't want to be in trouble. I don't wanna deal with the consequences. And this is the number one reason why people will lie, blame shift.

Casey:

They they don't they don't wanna experience that pain of that consequences, you know, the pain of your spouse's disappointment or, you know, the consequences of going into debt because you spent too much. And I feel like there's some societal trends here like, you know, people say like, I wanna live my life by my own rules. Right? It... You know, I have...

Casey:

I don't wanna have any boundaries and no restrictions and no consequences. Mhmm. So...

Meygan:

Thank you for admitting this. Yeah. Alright. Another reason why someone would get defensive is because they have insecurities. I mean, we all have insecurities, but that blinds us to the truth about who we really are.

Meygan:

I think people who are deeply concerned about what other people think of them, maybe they don't have self worth, they can get very defensive. And underneath that defensiveness is insecurities. And you might've heard this quote, maybe, maybe yes, maybe no, but insecurities are loud. Confidence is silent. So anytime your spouse is like really defensive, most of the time when I'm coaching a wife and she's like, my husband's defensive every time.

Meygan:

And I, I ask her, do you think he's insecure? And she says, oh, Meygan, absolutely. He is so insecure. And this is where going back to the compassion. There's something going on there where they have an insecurity about how they're showing up, the choices they're making.

Meygan:

To make this personal, you know, Casey would call me out for being controlling. And when I was extremely insecure, I would get defensive. I'm not controlling. What are you talking about? I'd get...

Meygan:

I was... So insecurities are loud. I'd get loud. I'd fight back. I probably broke every rule possible.

Meygan:

It was so obvious that I was controlling. Then when I started becoming more self aware, started doing a bunch of work on myself, I realized, oh, crap. I I am controlling. So then when you call it out on me, I'm not insecure about it anymore. I don't have to get defensive.

Meygan:

I can own it. But typically, if you're calling out your spouse in love about something or you bring up something and they have their own insecurity, they are going to get loud. So that could be a really deeply rooted thing going under the surface as to why they are defensive.

Casey:

So insecurities are fear based value judgments that we make against ourselves. Like I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I don't look good. So in... When you're getting defensive, what you're trying to do is protect protect people from like seeing that. Like I don't

Meygan:

Seeing the real you.

Casey:

Seeing the real you that you think you are. Yeah. Again, insecurities some, you know, aren't necessarily true about who you are, but we make these judgments and then we kind of associate some sort of value. So we're protecting the world from, know, knowing the true Casey, the true Meygan. And that's why we put up all those walls.

Meygan:

So to go back to the story, the true Meygan is I do have control issues.

Casey:

And you didn't want me to know about that.

Meygan:

And I didn't want you to know about it even though you were living it, breathing it, experiencing it every day. So owning that to go, yeah, I have control issues. Now it's not that I just go, well, I'm controlling. Oh, well, it's that I have the awareness and I know that I need to grow in this so that if you call me out, I can actually own it and hold myself accountable versus just getting defensive every single time.

Casey:

Well, let's just talk about some of the men out there. I think men know they need to lead their families. They don't know how and they're scared to death that their wife would find out that they don't know. Yeah. And I I...

Casey:

My heart breaks every time a man is trying to step in to the ring, so to speak. And he's like, yes, I wanna do this with my family, but I don't know. My dad never had sit down conversations with me, how to run my finances or how to love a woman the right way or how to lead, you know, my my kids. And so they're just kinda winging it hoping no one knows.

Meygan:

Notices. Yeah.

Casey:

That they that they're terrified Mhmm. For a lot of men. So they... That's why they get defensive when you start bringing up issues.... Insecurity underneath that.

Meygan:

Absolutely. Well, that should bring someone to compassion listening to that.

Casey:

Yeah. Okay. Another reason why people get defensive is because they feel attacked. I know this feels kinda obvious, but your spouse may be catching some of the non verbal stuff that's attached to the verbal. Mhmm.

Casey:

Right? So if there's an intensity or words or the volume,

Meygan:

Your energy, your

Casey:

They just feel perceived. I mean, is kind of an obvious one, but if they feel they're being attacked, even though you're not trying to attack them, they're perceiving something's happened. That's why they're going be defensive.

Meygan:

Another reason is they think they did nothing wrong. Oh, this one's me again.

Casey:

They think.

Meygan:

They think. I didn't didn't do anything wrong. They wanna justify themselves. They wanna be faultless in this situation. Their intent was never to harm.

Meygan:

Right? They they just really believe I had the best intentions. We kind of talked about this earlier, how this shows up. They wanna justify. They wanna lecture.

Meygan:

The underneath this is they really genuinely... The story they're telling themselves is, I didn't do anything wrong. So why should I have to hold myself accountable?

Casey:

And

Meygan:

intent versus impact is everything in marriage. If you've ever gone to therapy, I hope your therapist has taught you intent versus impact. It's like marriage 101. Most of the time, 90% of the time, our intentions are very good. We want the best for our marriage and our spouse, But that's not what we're focusing on.

Meygan:

We need to focus on the impact. The impact my words, my actions, my tone had was negative. And that's the focus.

Casey:

Yeah. I remember we went through a season of life where, you know, I'm an intense person. Right?

Meygan:

Yes, you are. And... But it's why I fell in love with you. Yeah. You're definitely not boring.

Casey:

And when I'm happy and intense Woo. People call that passion. And if I'm upset and intense, people call that angry. And I remember going around the house, not angry.

Meygan:

As your veins were popping out of your forehead.

Casey:

And you guys are like, gosh, you're so angry. I'm like, I'm not angry, which only angered me more. So yeah.

Meygan:

But so intent, your intent wasn't to be angry, your impact was anger.

Casey:

I was slightly upset, but also passionate and that came out as anger.

Meygan:

There you go.

Casey:

All right. Okay. Next one we would wanna talk about is ego. Okay. So, man, if you think that you are hot stuff, you've got this inflated view of yourself, which by the way, we all have ego.

Casey:

Some have a bigger ego than others.

Meygan:

Yes.

Casey:

I would say, Meygan, you know, we we can struggle with

Meygan:

Pride.

Casey:

Humility.

Meygan:

Mhmm.

Casey:

Right? Having humility like we we are really... We're amazing marriage coaches. We can say that with confidence.

Meygan:

Mhmm.

Casey:

So there is a sense of like, well, we we know. Mhmm. Right?

Meygan:

Yeah. We're confident in our role and our gifts that we have and

Casey:

Right.

Meygan:

And the the stories of success. Right.

Casey:

So some, you know, sometimes that can get to our head. You know, and we're competitive and we want to be the best. We want to win. So there can be a lot of defensiveness, you know,

Meygan:

if it's touching certain parts of our ego.

Casey:

Yeah. Not even just part of our job, but it gets it gets into our marriage, which is kind of a weird, you know, Meygan and I, we live a weird life because our marriage is our business and our business is marriage. So, you know, it's all like there's no

Meygan:

Boundary.

Casey:

Clear boundary

Meygan:

like We try. Could you imagine every time we get into fight poor Casey, I'm like, oh, this could be a really great worksheet that we could put into Which our

Casey:

is why, you know, we're not, we've processed a lot, which is why we're not unfazed by by our weaknesses and that's, you know.

Meygan:

But going back to ego, if if your spouse has pride, they have ego, an inflated view of their self, it's gonna be really hard to be humble and hold yourselves accountable.

Casey:

If you think that your spouse is selfish, they're not considerate of other people, hard for them to express empathy. That's that's part reason why people will be defensive is because they're trying to protect themselves. This happens a lot in couples that are in conflict. It reminds me of a Hemingway quote that true nobility is not being superior to your fellow man, but being superior to your former man. Meaning, true nobility is about looking at self and improving self and not just going, hey, I'm better than the next guy.

Meygan:

I wanna talk about this last one because I just know that this is actually for probably every single person listening. And one of the reasons why people get defensive is they just don't understand how healthy conflict works. You know, when conflict happens and you have two people who have very different opinions, they have different perspectives and feelings. It requires skills just to know how to lean in, be uncomfortable, stay respectful, perspective taking, staying out of judgment, not minimizing the other person's feelings. Right?

Meygan:

Being able to recognize emotions. Like, there's a lot of skill that's required for conflict.

Casey:

Yeah.

Meygan:

And if you don't have that skill, you've never learned it. It was never modeled or taught, and you haven't leaned into that, then to give yourself grace, how in the world would you know how to handle it? I think most people would just get defensive. If my spouse is bringing something up, I have zero skills. Well, yeah, I'm gonna get defensive.

Casey:

Well, they take it very personal.

Meygan:

Very personal.

Casey:

They were just bringing up a topic, and it's like, oh, you're attacking me

Meygan:

right now. Think defensiveness is a go to response for anybody who doesn't have the skills on healthy conflict. And so we didn't... We went into marriage not having any skills, you guys. Everything you're learning from us is because we've had to learn it ourselves the hard way.

Meygan:

And that's where I think I'm so proud of you for listening to this because you're learning. You're taking a step that many people will never take in their life. And that's why we exist. That's actually part of the reason why we created Marriage365, why we have an incredible membership that you need to check out. It's so popular because members continuously say, I just didn't know how to communicate.

Meygan:

And I didn't know how to respond in a healthy way until you guys modeled it for me because we're modeling things and videos and worksheets and giving you word for word phrases. And I think that that's so important.

Casey:

Yeah. And by watching the videos, listening to podcasts, you're becoming more self aware. And let me just say that self awareness is the key to building confidence. We talked about insecurities earlier. Insecurities kinda like the the fear kinda traps us Mhmm.

Casey:

From opening up our mind and learning. But as we learn and grow, we become more confidence because confidence is the word. The root word is trust. So confidence is trusting in oneself. So how would you trust yourself if you don't know yourself?

Meygan:

Yeah. Well, and as you become more self aware, you're also becoming more spousal aware. Right? We talked about all the different reasons why your spouse is getting defensive. Turn these things on you and say, Hey, maybe I'm defensive, which you are because we all are.

Meygan:

And say, what's my reasoning? And how is my defensiveness showing up? So here's the thing. Be sure to come back next week and listen to part two, because we're going to give you the do's and the don'ts for the next time your spouse gets defensive. So you know what you need to do.

Casey:

Well, we get asked all the time, can we work with you two directly? But here's the truth. Meygan and I cannot personally coach every couple who needs us. So we did something better. We built a coaching team and we trained every single one of them ourselves.

Casey:

Now these are coaches we would trust with our own marriage. They know how to help you get rid of resentment, heal from the wounds of the past instead of just talking about them, and really to walk with real confidence in how to build a marriage that lasts. Visit marriage365.com to get started today.