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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04)
Hello, hopping in with a very quick little addition to the episode you're about to hear, because right after we recorded it, we found out that beloved Dolly Parton died today or maybe yesterday, depending on when you're hearing this or when I get it out. but just felt like important enough news to share. And I'll just quickly say that in my mind Dolly Parton is proof that if white people want to, they will. Anything you want to say about her?
Taina (00:19)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If anybody wants to,
will. Yeah. If anybody wants to, they will. Such a loss, not just like in the music industry and the music community and the arts, but just as a human being, like,
She was proof, you know, that like, it matter where you came from, what your upbringing was, what the color of your skin was, or what was in your pants or anything of that nature. Like you said, if they want to, they will. So it's just, it's really sad. I know she's been in the, well, at least for us, like we've seen her a lot in the news, like over the past week or two for like various projects or like different highlights and things like that. And so it's-
very disorienting you, like a very, very big loss to just
Becky Mollenkamp (01:22)
Yeah.
Taina (01:22)
humanity in general.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:24)
Yeah, her husband, who she adored, died like a year and a half or something ago and she had been his caretaker for a while. And so I saw
Taina (01:32)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:32)
something about her saying that like some of her own health issues she had set aside a bit to help him through the ends of end of his life. I know a lot of people are thinking the two of them maybe they're together again and that, you know, it was really a love of her life, so we can hope maybe that's true, but
Just want to mention obviously her library program or her books program for children for literacy was amazing. She was also somebody who deeply believed in vaccines and helped to be a part of the cure or the not the cure, but the vaccine for COVID. And she was instrumental in that with really putting money behind her talk. She was willing to stand up for folks, even when her the industry in which she existed, and you know, the
the modern kind of country scene had turned very much against her politics. She wasn't in this episode you're gonna hear us say people who don't about how they aren't showing their values, their values change with the politics and she was not one to have that happen.
Taina (02:30)
Yes,
she was always very, very firm in her values, regardless of...
might have misinterpreted that or interpreted it or reacted or responded. She was like, nope, this is who I am and this is what I believe and the rest of y'all can just, you know, fuck off.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:50)
Exactly. And I think she
said pretty much that. I mean it was darn close. She was not afraid to say what she felt. And she was a
Taina (02:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:56)
pioneer in country music and a pioneer in so many other ways. And so she will be missed. I I audibly gasped when I saw the news. You were pretty
Taina (03:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:04)
shaken up by it too. So as much as I see a lot of white women saying things, I've also noticed online already a lot of black women saying, like, we need more dollies and less
Taina (03:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:13)
Clayton Caitlin Clarks. So she will be very
Taina (03:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:16)
much missed.
Taina (03:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:19)
All right, we hope you enjoy our regularly scheduled episode and and thank you for listening.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:26)
Hello Tiana How are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:27)
Hi.
I'm okay. I'm all right. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:32)
Well you look good, which is good 'cause I know you had a rough week, so I'm glad to see you are up and at
Taina Brown she/hers (03:38)
Yeah. Yeah. How are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (03:40)
My kid returned to school today, so smiling and ready. schools are back in s
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46)
you get your days back.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:47)
yes, schools are back in session and I have my days back. I couldn't have been more like leisurely and happy this morning, just like taking my time, getting back to my office. And now I'm thinking about all the ways I want to redo my office and just yeah, I'm in the I I feel like I'm returning to that headspace after the summer of like just trying to stay afloat. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:06)
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:07)
well, I thought today
Taina Brown she/hers (04:08)
Hello.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:09)
that maybe we could talk about what happens when advertisers are set free to do what they want to do. And when there's not the right mix of people, I suspect there's not the right mix of people in the room when they're making decisions about advertising. Because there's a couple
Taina Brown she/hers (04:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:24)
of big stories that have just come out in the last few days that sort of really exemplify
This issue. One was first Callaway Sports, which is a big name in the golfing world. I don't know much about golf, it's not my area.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:38)
So I would have probably not seen the story if not for social media because I don't care much about golf. But they partnered with another company. So there's probably their first problem. However, both companies signed off on and approved and released on social media a video ad that basically showed a man.
striking a woman who tried to touch his golf club and the whole thing
Taina Brown she/hers (04:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:00)
was don't try don't use my driver humorously depicting abuse right and I guess they thought that was a good idea they put it out and immediately with reason
women were
Taina Brown she/hers (05:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:09)
like yo this is not cool this isn't funny this isn't
Taina Brown she/hers (05:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:13)
just a humorous ad
You're you're making light of domestic violence, of assaults, of of harming women. And there were many women who brought this issue up. And I think that Callaway may have lost sight of the fact that many, many, many women also play golf and all are
Taina Brown she/hers (05:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:28)
also using their products. And then I think maybe the next day, or maybe the same day even, Target, which has been
The subject of so many issues in recent years. I haven't shopped on a Target in over two years, as many other people
Taina Brown she/hers (05:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:41)
have not. But to they released a new product for Halloween, a Halloween costume that was a quote unquote ghost that had a mouth that
Taina Brown she/hers (05:52)
It was supposed to be a ghost.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:53)
I think they called it a no clown. It was a clown. I'm so sorry. A clown. You're right. And it had
Taina Brown she/hers (05:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:58)
A mouth like this exaggerated, almost like a Cheshire cat kind of a grin. I'm trying to like for people who can't see me, it's like a big, oversized mouth. And it
Taina Brown she/hers (06:08)
The red lips.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:09)
Yes, red lips. Immediately many black folks said, Yo, not cool. This is hearkening back to and and really
For many people feeling clearly related to the days of minstrel shows and that kind of depiction of black folks i in quote
Taina Brown she/hers (06:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:27)
unquote comedy or other kinds of program. I guess minstrel shows
Taina Brown she/hers (06:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:30)
were considered comedy, right? So so both of these ads were meant to be or well one was an ad, one was a product, but they you know were the company was releasing advertising about it. And in both cases, it's a company that really missed the mark.
I think one was meant to be the costume was meant to be fun, right? And and and then whoever decided, yeah, that's a good idea thought probably, that's no big deal. It's a great little costume, how fun. And then with the
ad,
Taina Brown she/hers (06:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:52)
I think they thought it was supposed to be, you know, humorous, hilarious.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:57)
and both just really missed the mark completely, right? And and were
Taina Brown she/hers (06:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:01)
just didn't seem to understand an audience beyond
Beyond white white and men, whiteness and maleness, right? These were the the targets of those audiences without understanding broader context. So I shared some of it with you. I mean, since then,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:17)
Target has apologized, Callaway has apologized. They both are saying this doesn't reflect our values. We've missed the mark. We'll do better. We're gonna listen and learn. In the case of Target, we know they don't listen and learn. It wasn't that long ago.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:30)
They don't because
it's like every fucking Halloween Target is in the news for something like this. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:33)
Right? And and don't forget pride as well, right? Which is also what has
gotten them into hot water. And so, yeah, we know that Target has a rep has a clear history of not listening and learning.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:47)
Callaway, I don't know enough to know, so you know, maybe they'll listen and learn. But they both have sort of done the perfunctory, we're sorry, we missed the mark, we'll do better, we're gonna learn from this. This isn't who we are. It's always who
Taina Brown she/hers (07:57)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:59)
it's not it's always it's not who we are, which is interesting too.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:03)
So anyway, wonder what you thought about those things.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:06)
Yeah. I mean, I don't know anything about Good Good that the company that put out the golf driver and and that that ad, but I'm obviously more familiar with Target and I think it's it's quite
Mmm, what's the word I'm looking for? it's just funny that they this this literally happens at least once a year. And every time you're like, these are not our values. Well, it's become a fucking pattern. So apparently it is, right? And so, and then here's here's here's the thing, right? Here's here's what I was thinking about this morning when you when you sent me the text about this. minstrel shows.
Not everybody knows what menstrual shows are, right? And so it's very possible that someone in that creative space for Target created this costume without knowing what this could potentially tie back to, right? There could even have been a black person. There could have been multiple black people. Like I didn't, I'm black. I didn't find out what menstrual shows were until I was in my 30s. You know what I mean? So like it's very possible that like
For representation's sake, they have what appears to be the right people in the room, but on such a shallow level that nobody put two and two together. Nobody thought, well, our customer base might have a different experience, or our customer base might know things that the people in this room don't know. And this is why it's so important to not just
hire or work with people based on how they fucking look, right? Like you really have to know the I don't want to say the politics, but you really have to know like who's in the room. Like what's their experience? Like what's their history, right? Like all that to say you have to do your due fucking diligence, right? You can't just be like, we got three black people in the room, check, right? Because while yes, that's great. Like you should, I'm not
Advocating that you shouldn't be hiring people because you know, because you're black and be like, well, just because they're black, you're not gonna know anything. Like, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is like it goes, that's like, that's like the first fucking step. Like there has to be more work done beyond that, right? Because like, if I were in my 20s and I were in that room, I might have approved that. I might have been like, yeah, sure, it looks good. Because I had no idea what that could potentially tie back to, right? And so, and
Being in my twenties, like knowing the person who I was, like, I might not have done the due diligence to be like, well, maybe we should test this with, you know, with a different, you know, client base, with a different like sample, right, of our of our target c you know, customer base and see how people react to it, right? Like there are are things that could be done to
prevent this from happening that just simply were not done. Or if they were done, they were done very poorly, right? Because there's market
Becky Mollenkamp (11:00)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:01)
testing, there's there's making sure the right people are in the room, right? Like I think sometimes people don't understand like what what it looks like to take a product from conception to market. Like there's a lot of work that goes into that.
There should be anyway. And sometimes it just feels like that's not the case. Like they're just like throwing things out there just willy-nilly without any real intention or thought behind it. So I I'm I'm honestly not surprised at the Target thing. Like at this point, it's it's it's almost like one of those things it's like, well, how is Tara gonna fuck up this year for Halloween or for Pride or for Black History Month or you know, for whatever?
Becky Mollenkamp (11:38)
No. I know. Yeah. Right.
Well, and a I sent you a text to or a tweet or whatever, a thread from Ben Crump, who's a pretty famous attorney who steps in often in cases of
Taina Brown she/hers (11:53)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:54)
you know, racism and and often with
Taina Brown she/hers (11:56)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:56)
like police abuse and things like that. But he said, you know, this cost this costume made it through Target's entire design, production and merchandising process
without a single person stopping it. This is exactly what happens when you dismantle DEI and call it a business decision, which I thought was really on point because it's yeah, it's not but but I think your point is sort of even goes beyond that. If it's not just saying we're dismantling DEI in the sense that we're thinking about equity and inclusion in who we hire, but also as we think about the products we're developing and and and the cul the ways we're talking about our business, like
There's sensitivities in there that you need the right
Taina Brown she/hers (12:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:33)
people in the room to be thinking about those things. And you can't just have one black person and say that's the that then we've done it. For exactly the reasons you're saying, it has to be somebody who actually understands broader context. And that can't just be one. I don't think it should be just one person. But if it's gonna be one person, it needs to be one person who actually has done like their studies on, you know, gender
Taina Brown she/hers (12:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:53)
and and c and race relations or something like that, right? Where it's somebody who under Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:56)
And who holds power? And who holds
power? Because it could be one black person in a room full of twelve white people. And
Becky Mollenkamp (13:02)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:02)
what kind of what what what kind of power does does that person hold? Does that one black person hold?
Becky Mollenkamp (13:08)
Yep, that's exactly that
was my thought on the Callaway, because I was gonna sort of try to match your energy on the it could have been me and I can see how it could happen. In that because for me, I can I if I really put myself in my 20 something, early 30 something space where I was one of those women, which I now understand was about seeking proximity to power. At the time I didn't understand that.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:34)
But I
was one of those, I'm not like the other girls, I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (13:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:37)
a guy's gal. Yeah, I'll I'll engage in all of that inappropriate humor in the workplace because I I c I'm cool and I get it
Taina Brown she/hers (13:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:47)
and
You know, everybody else is being so sensitive and whatever, right? Like because I I now see that was my way of trying to gain access and power by saying, Yeah, I can I can show up and be more like this. I won't be one of those ones, those women who are too sensitive or whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:02)
Not realizing that ultimately I'm harming women by doing that. But
Taina Brown she/hers (14:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:05)
when you're 20 and you don't know better and it's your first time in the work environment, or if you've all you have you know, or if you really need the job, right? Because you gotta pay
Taina Brown she/hers (14:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:14)
the bills. There's a million reasons why we show up that way and why
A woman might see that Callaway ad and say, like, you know, I yeah, that's
Taina Brown she/hers (14:20)
It's funny.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:21)
yeah, it's funny, I whatever. Because we see that also in the way women vote, right? Especially white women.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:27)
We see that in the way that women go and support comedians like CK, whatever the fuck his name, Louis CK, or you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:35)
all of these kinds of folks who show up to support.
quote unquote comedy that's often at their own expense, this like punching
Taina Brown she/hers (14:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:42)
down com kind of comedy, and don't want to be told the things that I now hear because I won't engage in that kind of I'm not that same woman who used to be like,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:52)
yeah, I'm not like the other girls. Now that I'm like, no, I'm here to fight for all the girls, right? I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (14:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:56)
not. I am one of those girls and I'm gonna be your worst nightmare. Now I get told all the time you're no fun. you must be fun at a party. That kind of bullshit that we get.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:04)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:05)
And that's really hard when you're dealing with it day to day in a workplace. I don't have to deal with
Taina Brown she/hers (15:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:08)
a day-to-workplace. I can deal with it now, right? But I also can put myself in that place where, yeah, you've got a white you'd have got one woman in the room full of men, because I did see the good, good team, a photo that was posted of them. It may not be the exact team, but it was a photo of about 10 all-white men in their 30s.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:24)
The kinds of guys I might expect to make that kind of humor, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (15:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:28)
And I could see being the only white woman in that room, again, no power or little power, and
pressure and knowing I have to show up every day and work with these guys and if I'm that person
Taina Brown she/hers (15:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:38)
that I get to hear about how I'm no fun or I get I don't
Taina Brown she/hers (15:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:41)
get invited to things. I don't get promotions. I get pushed out. I have no friends in the workplace. I can see how it happens. And
Taina Brown she/hers (15:48)
Yeah. Or even
if you say, No, this is not a good idea, you get outvoted because you're the only one.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:53)
And they'll say it's you're just being sensitive, or
Taina Brown she/hers (15:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:55)
you're no fun, or whatever, right? And exactly. And so all that to say it's not that it excuses it, like you said, but it's then it's a corporate responsibility, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:04)
So yeah, good, good, the people who made the ads, the guy the person who designed the costume at Target, whatever the things are, they hold responsibility. But
Taina Brown she/hers (16:12)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:12)
the ultimate responsibility lies at that corporate level that's about what
Taina Brown she/hers (16:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:16)
is the culture we're creating here.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:18)
How are we showing that? Like you can say this isn't what I value, but if it's able to get out, it is what you value, right? Like there
Taina Brown she/hers (16:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:26)
it's a clear that inside of your corporation, your values are not clear that that was not acceptable, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:34)
It should have never been something that would happen. There shouldn't be a room full of men who are joking about domestic violence in any way. Like that, I don't believe that ad is probably the first time that the kinds of people that created that ad.
have been making those kinds of jokes in the workplace. I just don't believe
Taina Brown she/hers (16:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:52)
that.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:53)
Yeah. And and here okay, here's the thing that bewildered me too about that ad. Like it's also just not fucking good.
Like I don't get it. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (16:59)
No. I don't get it either.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:01)
like is it I I feel like in a way it's supposed to be funny, but also in a way it's supposed to be like the way that they set it up, the entire like like the soundscape of it, like I feel like they're doing like a parody of like a horror movie. Like a su like it felt like
Cause like the woman touches it, a guy comes over, throws her on the ground, and is like, Don't touch my driver. And then like another guy goes to touch it and they're like, No, don't do it, don't do it. Like, and then he touches it and he gets like this weird look on his face. And then like, like all this stuff is happening, and I'm just like
This also just as a concept was just not well thought out in general. Like there's no real concept happening here.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:43)
I think it I
feel like it was meant to look like a TikTok video or something. Like it was meant to look lower rent. Maybe. Like Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:53)
Well yeah, yeah, I got that. Like I got 'cause
I 'cause you said it was on social media. So I'm like, okay, so I I feel like a lot of a lot of ads that
Becky Mollenkamp (17:58)
Yeah. I don't think it was f I
Taina Brown she/hers (18:01)
pop up on social media are meant to a lot of corporate corporately paid
Becky Mollenkamp (18:04)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:05)
for ads or corporately designed ads that show up on social media these days are meant to look like user generated content, right? Where it's like they just paid an influencer to do it and
Becky Mollenkamp (18:12)
Yeah. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:16)
so it it has this like homegrown, organic feel to it. And so like I got that, but
There's like the technicalities of it where I'm like, at one point it feels like it's supposed to be funny, and other po at another point it feels like it's supposed to be a parody of like a horror movie, almost like a get out or a note kind of thing, which feels really weird because there are no black people in the ad whatsoever. It's just a bunch of white dudes wearing blue. And like and everyone's wearing like a uniform, basically. It's like blue with khaki. Like that's like the uniform.
And so and so it just
Becky Mollenkamp (18:52)
probably a fairly
accurate representation of most golf clubs. Not golf clubs, but golf co you know, places you play golf. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:56)
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Golf culture just in general, yeah.
And so so just it in in in the cre from the creative side of things,
Becky Mollenkamp (19:08)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:09)
it also was just not well executed. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (19:12)
No, I thought it
was a it was horrible and it wasn't funny. I don't get where it's funny. And even if it so then let's say maybe it was meant to be a horror thing, I still don't think that that was, like you said, well done. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't. And yet someone said, Yeah, let's put this out. S
Taina Brown she/hers (19:22)
It didn't hit. It didn't hit at all. Yeah. So Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:29)
which then does also make you start to, if you wanna get into your conspiracy shoes just a little
Taina Brown she/hers (19:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:34)
bit, wonder because like you said, a lot of this content is put out that like they
These corporations are working with these other folks to put out content. And often what they're looking for in that like user generated content can be stuff that is edgier than they would probably have created if it went through their layers of the advertising departments and traditional
Taina Brown she/hers (19:53)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:54)
advertising agencies. It's often stuff that's gonna be more edgy, more controversial. Get that kind of like the scroll stopping, click worthy, clickbait kind of stuff, which then makes you wonder like, because you
You have to wonder what at Callaway they said. Yeah, this is a great idea, let's put this out. And that makes you start to think like, could it be because they knew it would do this? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (20:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:17)
who was talking about Callaway last week?
Taina Brown she/hers (20:19)
Nobody. I s I had never heard of Callaway or Good Good or whoever.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:24)
So it does make you s it does beg the question a little bit of like, okay, if this isn't your value set and then how in the hell did it get out, right? Why would you why
Taina Brown she/hers (20:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:35)
did it get approved? And it does start to make you wonder, is it because you knew this might happen?
Taina Brown she/hers (20:39)
Yeah, yeah. It it's it's kind of like a Trumpian approach, right? To to advertising. It's like any news is good news and you just gotta keep the the scandals coming to get to keep people talking about you. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:51)
As long as your name is out there, yeah,
right. Like it doesn't matter why they're using your name, they're using your name, and more people know Callaway now than they did a week ago. And right, and let's be honest, who plays golf? You know,
Taina Brown she/hers (20:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's about notoriety, right? And not necessarily values. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:05)
on the whole, it is a white male sport. Now, I'm not there are many women who play, and so I do not want to in any way say they don't.
But and I don't know the numbers, I should look them up. But I have a feeling the numbers remain because just to be clear, and not because men are better at it or for any reason other than one, it's an expensive sport. It's very
Taina Brown she/hers (21:23)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:24)
pricey to play, not necessarily the equipment, although that too, but just being on a golf green is expensive, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (21:29)
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause we have to have a membership.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:31)
Yep, or you have to pay a high fee to go to a public course.
You it takes a long time to play a game of golf, so you have to have more leisure in your life, which excludes a lot of people who can't afford to have that kind of leisure, right? So there's that. And the other bigger structural systemic issue is that many golf course, many golf clubs for much of our history excluded women and black folks. Women
and any
Taina Brown she/hers (21:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:58)
basically anyone who wasn't white men weren't allowed to play golf on most courses. So
The access was a b that was a huge barrier until very recently. I mean, the masters in my lifetime finally allowed black folks to play, right? Like I remember
Taina Brown she/hers (22:12)
Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:13)
how the Masters Augusta National was still a whites only course. Like, I think until like maybe the eighties, nineties. Like it was it was ridiculous.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:23)
So there are a lot of barriers that have made it so that this remains a largely white male dominated sport.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:29)
Yeah. Yeah,
well golf courses are usually part of country clubs which are modeled
Becky Mollenkamp (22:34)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:35)
after plantations. So there's that whole history there. So yeah, they're they're quite racist.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:37)
All about the exclusion. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
So it makes you also then wonder does Callaway genuinely care? Like you have just from a like logical standpoint, one has to look at this and say, you say this doesn't align with your values yet. Somehow this managed to be approved and get out. So was it because is there some part of me that thinks
Could it potentially be because they knew this would happen? And
Taina Brown she/hers (23:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:06)
their ideal audience ultimately doesn't care that much. And in many ways, I have a feeling many of them are the people who can't stand DEI, who can't
Taina Brown she/hers (23:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:14)
stand the woke agenda, who in their minds, they're like, this backlash makes me want to support Callaway more, right? I don't mean to get too conspiratorial. However, it does beg the it begs the question.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:23)
No. But we don't know. That's the thing. We don't know.
Yeah. We don't know. And in this day and age of misinformation and disinformation and people literally, companies and politicians and celebrities doing things for shock value, like this seems like the logical conclusion, right? Or it seems like it could potentially be a logical conclusion too.
The so fiasco. So I looked up the National Golf Foundation
Becky Mollenkamp (23:52)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:52)
and year end data for twenty twenty four. it says that it shows that more than one quarter of green grass golfers in the US are women and girls or people of color. So among the Right, right. So those are all grouped together. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:02)
or people of color. That's that says
Yeah, which really says something. That means 75%
Taina Brown she/hers (24:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:10)
are white men. So as I'm saying
Taina Brown she/hers (24:12)
Listen,
it gets it gets it gets better. Among the 28.1 million Americans who played golf on a golf course in 2024. Yeah, the most
Becky Mollenkamp (24:21)
Which is pretty much the only way you can play golf on a golf course.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:25)
since 2008. 28% were female and 25% were black, Asian, or Hispanic. So they grouped Black,
Becky Mollenkamp (24:31)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:34)
Asian, and Hispanic as par as 25%. Like that those three
make up twenty five percent and then twenty-eight percent were female. these numbers, not mutually exclusive, which means th there's overlap there, yeah. Reflect yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:47)
Right. So some there's overlap in there. So exactly. All the women of color are included in both those categories. So that reduces it, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:56)
These numbers are reflect the continued evolution of the sports participant base, particularly when compared to historical benchmarks.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:04)
Yeah, but that which is amazing that in the year of our Lord twenty twenty six, that con is considered the sh proof of progress. Right? That will
Taina Brown she/hers (25:12)
Yeah. Out of twenty eight point
one million. What's what's twenty five percent of twenty twenty eight point one million? I I
Becky Mollenkamp (25:19)
A little over five
million.
Which is still not a small amount. And why there is outrage amongst many of those women who watch this and said, Hey, we play. I saw a woman on
Taina Brown she/hers (25:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:28)
on threads who said, I'm getting my daughter loves golf. She's a young girl. I think she was maybe fourteen or younger. As I recall, she was she was young.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:37)
And her mom said, She's like, I'm a single mom who survived domestic violence. I am going to be s getting rid of my daughter's Callaway clubs. What should I be buying? What other companies can tell me this
Taina Brown she/hers (25:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:48)
is not
your the way you show up in the world, right? Like
Taina Brown she/hers (25:50)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:51)
and so many people were liking that and sharing that. And to say the there are many young women who and older there are many women who play, young women who are trying to play, who are looking for the their people to look up to, and this is what they're being greeted with. And if that's what the company is willing to do, what's happening on golf courses when these women
Taina Brown she/hers (26:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:11)
and girls are out there, you know, especi and especially women of color.
That are out there. And we know, like you see this happen in all sorts of things where women of color are trying to show up and go hiking or do any
Taina Brown she/hers (26:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:21)
I mean, it just met with so much so many challenges.
And
Taina Brown she/hers (26:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26)
we don't need to add to it here. And to go back to Target a little bit, just to say, like, at some point, my same conspiratorial hat gets put on of like, at how many times do we see Target do the same thing year over year and not start to think
is this just Target's annual? Let's see if we can get people in a tizzy so that we get our MAGA shoppers
Taina Brown she/hers (26:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:44)
out in force. I I don't know. Like I don't that is not the target that I thought I knew years ago that
Taina Brown she/hers (26:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:51)
really did seem to value. I mean, they were early in this bandwagon of like supporting, you know, having LGBTQ.
And and Pride merchandise and having an entire Pride Month and Pride displays. They were they were very much on having black-owned business displays and working
Taina Brown she/hers (27:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:07)
with black-owned businesses and getting those products into their stores. I don't know what happened. the only thing that one could think that happened is they read the tea leaves and said Trump is in power. This movement is taking off. We need to speak to those people. We're gonna cowtop. Yeah, and that and
Taina Brown she/hers (27:20)
We need to pivot. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:22)
it feels almost like when we start to see this year over year.
It feels intentional. And then if suddenly
Taina Brown she/hers (27:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:28)
this man who now I'm pretty sure is making it clear he has no plans to leave office, but if he were to leave office and things do change, are they just gonna go the way the wind blows again? And that goes to the point of don't tell me it's your value set. Your values
Taina Brown she/hers (27:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:41)
don't shift with the winds. Your values don't shift
Taina Brown she/hers (27:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:44)
with what's happening in the marketplace. That's not values, that's
Taina Brown she/hers (27:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:47)
capitalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I was gonna say. Then at that point it's clear that you value capitalism above all else, right? Like that you there is no moral compass, there is only the bottom line. And so, and I I think you bring up a good point about how politics, right, like literal politics, right, affect how companies operate. And so they
This move, right, that we've been experiencing for like the past decade towards like more conservatism and and fascism and and all of that. Like, it is showing up in the ways that these big companies operate. It is showing up in the way and and that trickles down, right? Not just from like who's in the boardroom and who's the CEO and those decisions, but like advertising decisions, products, right? Like
How they respond to public outrage, right? It it it also affects like it affects so many things, right? Like it it's it's all interconnected. Like this isn't isolated, like this is happening because we are in this current political landscape. This isn't separate from what's happening like in Washington and in international politics and all of that. Like it's it's all connected, like it's all connected, and so
Board members, CEOs of big companies, their job is to protect the bottom line. Their job is to make the business money. Like that's that's their job. And so they have to know what's happening in the world and how it's going to affect their business. Like if they didn't, they would be bad business people. Like that's just the nature of how business operates in a capitalist society, in a capitalist structure. And so to
To see these incidents as like benign or isolated, or unrelated is incredibly naive, I think.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:37)
Yeah. I was just looking up two donations. and Callaway so you can go to opensecrets.org for anybody who doesn't know what that is, where you can look up different corporations to see how they've been donating, Republican or whatever. And Callaway has no doesn't hasn't done a lot of donating. so small amount, it was like a little over maybe it was six hundred bucks or something that is available anyway.
It well almost all went to Republicans. So that that is interesting, but it's a small amount, so who knows, right? and Target is such a large corporation, they give a ton of money. And in historically, they do give more to Democrats, but they don't not give to Republicans, right? They also give to and in fact I think in some of this I'm trying to look if you can see the exact because they they give so much that it's hard to keep up with.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:22)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:23)
But they they don't they they they don't hedge
They are hedging their bets, right? They they donate to both parties and both parties fairly equally because they
Taina Brown she/hers (30:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:33)
I mean this is what corp this is what capitalism does, as you know, as you're saying, like if you your values aren't values, if they can change based on who's in the office. And I think just on the consumer end of things, if this stuff pisses you off, like the idea that we're back to shopping at Target, I've seen some people talking about that.
I haven't. And guess what? My life has been just fine.
I'm not I haven't
Taina Brown she/hers (30:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:56)
shopped at Target in over two years since the the sort of collective effort to boycott began. And I was a stockholder at that time. Not much. I think I had two shares in Target. And and I since sold them for a major loss. Thankfully it was only like two shares. Because the the ban worked. The shopping ban at Target was it has
Taina Brown she/hers (31:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:15)
has been working. They have been scrambling their ti their
stock has been going way down. They are feeling those effects. And to say, well, that's done then. Clearly it's not. Because clearly exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:25)
It's not
Becky Mollenkamp (31:27)
And you know, if I were somebody who played golf, I wouldn't be using any Callaway products.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:33)
Then again, it's hard to know who you can trust, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (31:36)
Yeah, it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:37)
ultimately they're all like if I'm not shopping at Target, where am I shopping? You know,
Taina Brown she/hers (31:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:43)
it's there's Amazon, not any better.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:46)
Walmart, not any better. Like,
you know, and so it's hard. Like the bands can help and they do work. The problem, and this is the messy part, is and we still exist inside of a system where everyone operating and everyone who gets to that level inside the system is is not somebody you can trust. And so where you can, obviously
Taina Brown she/hers (32:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:05)
shopping local or shopping small is the answer, but there are certain
Taina Brown she/hers (32:06)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:09)
things where that becomes really hard. Buying golf clubs, very hard to
Taina Brown she/hers (32:13)
To do
locally, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:14)
Yeah, like that's just not a product that's easily cre manufactured and sold at a boutique kind of level and s
Taina Brown she/hers (32:16)
Yeah. Manufactured, yeah, in in small in small batches.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:22)
and certainly not at a price that most people would be able to afford. So like these
Taina Brown she/hers (32:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:26)
are the challenges we have to deal with. And I guess part of it is calling it out, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:30)
The backlash, the fact that they've had to at least apologize, the fact that they know people are paying attention maybe makes some difference. I don't know. What do you think
Taina Brown she/hers (32:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:39)
about the like on the consumer end of what do we do?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:43)
I'm curious what you think about that.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:45)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. And I I think, you know, I think I I think because the boycott has worked so well with Target, like I think that makes it extra surprising. Or not surprising, but just like, wow, really, you guys still did that. Like, even with all the losses that you've encountered over the past few years. But I think from the consumer perspective, right, like local is is the way to go. And and then
I will say this, like there's there are there are moments, right, where I'm just like, if I go local, I'm not gonna get exactly what I want. Like, I'm gonna be like have I'm gonna have to like compromise on something, right? Whether it's price, whether it's aesthetic vibe that I'm going for, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:27)
Almost always price. Selection.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:32)
Like, whether it's like, yeah.
having like a a good selection or options to choose from. And that's that's just that's just the nature of it, right? Like you're not, you're not necessarily gonna find the exact same thing or the exact thing that you're looking for. And I think at the individual level, right? Like you have to decide for yourself like, okay, how what are the lines for you like in terms of price, options, availability, right? Cause like
I could purchase something locally, but it it might be an urgent need that I can't wait a week or two to get. So then Amazon might be my best bet, right? Because it's it's or I'm on a budget, right? So like right, right, right,
Becky Mollenkamp (34:13)
Yep. Or I'm on a budget and I can't. Or I'm I have a disability that keeps or lack of transportation. I mean, yeah, there's a million reasons.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:22)
right. So I I think the the question or the goal is not necessarily to like completely remove yourself.
from these structures, right? But like as much as you can move away from relying on these companies and these structures that will continue to perpetuate harm to to most of us. really really to all of us, because patriarchy hurts men. Racism hurts white people, right? Like sex is not like it like no one leaves unscathed from these harmful structures.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:56)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:57)
And so
Again, the goal is not to like completely remove yourself, but to try to lean as far away from it as possible. And to know that like that's not always going to be possible. And that's okay. Like we do the best that we fucking can because at the end of the day, like me as an individual, I hold no power against a corporation like Target. Like or against a company like Amazon. Like the amount of power and wealth that these companies have accumulated.
Is
otherworldly compared to
Becky Mollenkamp (35:27)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:27)
the amount of wealth and power that I have. And so to pit myself against a company and say my action will be equal to their action is It's unrealistic.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:40)
Losing you as
a customer, they don't even they don't notice. Like they're not gonna notice. No. Which is not an excuse to say
Taina Brown she/hers (35:44)
They don't fucking care. They don't notice. It's a drop in the hat, like, or drop in the bucket, whatever the phrase is.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:52)
it's not an excuse to to it's not a way to just excuse ourselves from doing anything, but it's also the acknowledgement
Taina Brown she/hers (35:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:58)
of what the systems are, right? Because yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:01)
I can I can never shop Amazon again and they're gonna be just fine. Like that's just the truth of it. And I could never
Taina Brown she/hers (36:04)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:07)
use a disposable sh I could never use plastic again.
And the planet's still gonna fucking crumble. Right?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:11)
Well yeah, plastic is still gonna pile up everywhere, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:15)
So these it's that in trying to put these things down to an individual level, which is where I think you and I both get a little frustrated sometimes with some of the like leftist rhetoric that is can become very hyperfixated on calling out individuals. Exactly,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:28)
An individual action, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:30)
where it's like, that's lovely. Like, yes, we should all be trying
Taina Brown she/hers (36:32)
That's unfair. It's unfair.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:34)
to do more. And
It's missing the point. It's missing the mark
Taina Brown she/hers (36:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37)
and missing the point. Our iron and it's what they it's us falling into their trap. It's what they want us to do. Because if we're worried about
Taina Brown she/hers (36:41)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43)
each other and policing each other, we're not policing the people who need to be police. And the way
Taina Brown she/hers (36:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:47)
we do that in a democracy, whether it's a democratic socialist state, which is what I would like to see, or the current democratic, theoretically, oligarchical state that we live in, we do still for
A while, even though they're trying to take away our mail-in voting rights, but we do for now have the power to say we elect people who will hold these companies to account. And we've been doing a piss poor job of that as individuals, right? That is
Taina Brown she/hers (37:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:13)
where we need to collectively say our power goes. Collective boycotts are great as well, but ultimately, unless we change the system.
It's not gonna matter. We need to elect more
Taina Brown she/hers (37:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:22)
Mom Donis and fewer Hakeem Jeffries, fewer Chuck Schumers, fewer Nancy Pelosi's. We need to get
Taina Brown she/hers (37:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:28)
out the people who are as invested as the corporations are in seeing the corporations succeed, and more people who say, No, we're here about saying how do we make sure that individual humans thrive.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:38)
The people are taken care of, yeah. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, it's unfair to to put that pressure on any one individual, whether that individual is someone else or yourself, right? Like that's an unnecessary burden to be trying to carry. And so and it like you said, it's not it's not an excuse to be just like, well, I guess I'll just, you know, shop wherever I want to shop. Like that's not the point. The point is like we're comparing apples to oranges. Like it's not the same.
It's not the same. And so
Becky Mollenkamp (38:05)
At all. No.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:07)
do what you can, right? For yourself, for your family, in a way that feels good, that you feel like you can sleep at night and you're not, you know, your conscience is clear and you're not compromising. But know that the reality is there's no escaping this at
Becky Mollenkamp (38:22)
And
Taina Brown she/hers (38:23)
this current time. There's no escaping it.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:25)
Right.
And think about it when you hit a ballot box. Don't
Taina Brown she/hers (38:27)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:29)
don't let your individual concerns affect how you show up in the ballot box. Because if you are somebody who votes and says, Well, I care about all these things, but the thing that's gonna affect my taxes the most, the things that's gonna affect my household bottom line the most, the thing that's gonna make my life the most challenging, and you're only voting through that lens, then you're doing exactly what Callaway and Target and everyone else is doing.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:52)
Claiming to have a value set until it rubber meets road, until it's about your bottom line, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (38:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:58)
Your values should not change at the ballot box based on how it affects your individual taxes, your individual
Taina Brown she/hers (39:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04)
property taxes. If you say you care about schools, then you vote to support schools, even if it does raise your property taxes, right? If you say that
Taina Brown she/hers (39:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:11)
you care about human rights, then you vote for the candidates who support human rights, even if it does mean your taxes go up. These this is what it looks like to say I walk my values and not just
Taina Brown she/hers (39:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:21)
being another target that says, well, this is that didn't align with my values, but I did it anyway. Like, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:27)
and and I would say, like, go look up your local DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America or the Working Family Party, and go find meetings and get out there. Like that is where we can have effect change. And yes, shop somewhere else when you can. Absolutely. Use your voice when you can, which is something else we didn't say. Like if you have
Taina Brown she/hers (39:44)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:44)
the ability without it being a threat to your safety
Taina Brown she/hers (39:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:48)
To speak
out on social media or to write a letter to a the, you know, corporation president or to your representatives or to whomever to say this is not acceptable. Our voices also matter. Because when they hear enough,
Taina Brown she/hers (39:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:00)
I mean, in a world of capitalism, if they're worried about their bottom line because they're hearing from enough people, they will make changes. So that is something
Taina Brown she/hers (40:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:06)
we can do too. We use our voice, and our voice looks like how we vote. It looks like actually speaking truth to power in
whatever public forums or even private forums that we can. And then it also looks like how we spend our money. But we can't make it only about how we spend
our
Taina Brown she/hers (40:20)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, like, you know, if if if you're used to voting in your own self-interest and not in the interest of the larger community, like we're seeing now how that is backfiring for a lot of people. That's backfiring for people who own farms. That's backfiring for for women, right? That's backfiring for for older voters who, you know, voted
Bred and are their social security is now being threatened, their healthcare is being threatened, right? And so like it will come for everybody eventually, right? To think that you can vote one way to make yourself safe, like that's that's an illusion. That's not real. That's not how capitalism
Becky Mollenkamp (41:04)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:05)
works. Capitalism will eat any and everything to make money, and that includes you, regardless of how much wealth and privilege you have stored up for yourself.
So
Becky Mollenkamp (41:16)
Yep. Just look at the humanoid rob robots. Eventually it means literally every human. Until
Taina Brown she/hers (41:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:21)
there's three people sitting at the top with their humanoid robot
Taina Brown she/hers (41:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:24)
robot army and the rest of us are what? I mean, we're fighting for scraps.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:26)
Yeah, yeah. We were we were watching
the speaking of human robots, a different tangent, but we were watching the news last night and China just held the robot Olympics or some shit like that. And it's like
Becky Mollenkamp (41:35)
Yeah, that's what made me think of it. Yeah. It was. They do it every year.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:41)
I didn't know that was a thing. And so it was it was just so bizarre seeing these clips of like robots competing at these athletic events and
My wife was like, why would they want athletic robots? And I'm like, they don't want athletic robots. They want robots that can be athletic for military might. Like, that's where this is going. Like, and it's not just China, right? Like it's eventually it's gonna be everywhere if it's not already everywhere. Like they want
Becky Mollenkamp (42:10)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:11)
soldiers who don't need to sleep, who don't need to eat, who can go twenty-four seven.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:17)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:18)
and and if they
Becky Mollenkamp (42:21)
Who also don't have heart. Yeah. Who have no empathy. How wonderful
Taina Brown she/hers (42:21)
get destroyed there's no there's no real loss of life. Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:27)
to have a fighting army that has literally no empathy. I mean, they
Taina Brown she/hers (42:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:31)
they try very hard to strip folks in the army of empathy or of in the military of empathy,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:36)
but they are still humans who do have some degree of empathy. Look what it looks like.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:38)
Mm-hmm. That's why they
that's why people who see combat come back all fucked up. Because there's that struggle between empathy and like having
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44)
Yeah. You have an and it right.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:48)
to disengage from a part of a humanity in order to like shoot at
Becky Mollenkamp (42:52)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:52)
or be in conflict with someone else.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:55)
Now
look what happens when you have troops that have don't have worry about that.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:59)
100%, I agree. And it's very scary. And just look what's happening in the war right now with Ukraine and Russia. I mean,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:05)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:05)
it has become almost entirely an operated by droid battle. The
Taina Brown she/hers (43:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:11)
human part of it is the often the civilian toll, but
Taina Brown she/hers (43:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:17)
also military toll, who are people on bases and things, but
Most of what's happening as far as the actual warfare is is droids.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:27)
Is that the right word?
Taina Brown she/hers (43:28)
Drones? Drones?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:28)
That's thank you. That's what I meant. Drones.
And you want to I was like, droids isn't right, because that's like an Android. But anyway, drones. Yeah. So it's all it's a drone war that's
Taina Brown she/hers (43:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:37)
happening. And that's that's what we're moving to. Which does relate to what we're talking about in the fact that the more that we allow ourselves to strip our own humanity and allow corporations to continue to strip our humanity, and make no mistake, that target ad and that Callaway ad or that target product and that Callaway ad are both about stripping humanity from large
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:55)
sections of people.
Right. And to when we say that's okay and we say, Yeah, you can do that and I'll still buy your products,
Taina Brown she/hers (44:02)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:03)
we're stripping our own humanity away. We're doing the job
Taina Brown she/hers (44:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:05)
for them. So
Taina Brown she/hers (44:06)
Yeah, yeah, we are. And we are. And and I I I just wanna, you know, say if you are a business owner or small business owner, I know we talked a lot about like the responsibility of, you know, of businesses and corporations to do things. And I think sometimes if you're a small business owner, you can be like, Well, I don't have the means, right, to like have a DEI, you know, thing or whatever. And it's like, you don't even have to, you don't have to do all that. Just do your due diligence.
Just do
Becky Mollenkamp (44:34)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:34)
your due diligence. Like there are ways as a small business owner that you can make decisions that are aligned with your values, that aren't going to give people the wrong impression, that are going to not perpetuate harm, right? Without having to like have all this fancy stuff. Like even big corporations. You don't have to have fucking DEI in your business model. If they just did their due diligence, they wouldn't fucking need it in the first place. Like
Like the the whole DEI thing was a stopgap to help combat like any kind of harm that was being done. But if they were doing their due diligence, the the need for DEI wouldn't even
exist.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:12)
Well,
and make no no mistake, all of those DEI efforts at those high corporate levels, I'm not talking at a d smaller level, but that higher corporate level was not because they care about DEI. It was exactly it was a response to where,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:24)
No, it was all for optics. It was all for optics.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:28)
again, because their values blow with the wind, because they're not actual values, it was a response to a 2020 world.
Right. And the response to George Floyd. And George Floyd, you know, that happened in Minnesota. That's where Target's based. Of course, they responded in a way that would make sense for them economically.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:46)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:47)
That's not values. Right. So that
Taina Brown she/hers (45:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:49)
is not they are not a values-led company. If you're a values-led company at a small level, this won't be an issue for you anyway. It just won't, because you're gonna
Taina Brown she/hers (45:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:57)
show up with your values and the first time you step in it and cause harm, you're gonna acknowledge that you're
Taina Brown she/hers (46:02)
You're gonna take accountability
Becky Mollenkamp (46:03)
Actually gonna learn from it
Taina Brown she/hers (46:03)
for that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:04)
and we won't see that same mistake happening from you. That's not what's happening with Target. That's not and I
Taina Brown she/hers (46:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:09)
have a feeling it's not gonna be what happens with Callaway. Don't know yet, but I have a feeling. So yeah, I appreciate what you're saying, only to say that yeah, I just think if you're if you're actually operating on your values as a small business owner, this it just won't even be an issue. So
Taina Brown she/hers (46:22)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:23)
thank you for talking about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:24)
Yeah, of course. Always fun.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:26)
Have a great day.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.