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The development world is cluttered with buzzwords and distractions. Speed, focus, and freedom? Gone.
I’m Nicky Pike. And it’s time for a reset.
[Dev]olution is here to help you get back to what matters: creating, solving, and making an impact. No trend chasing, just asking better questions.
What do devs really want?
How can platform teams drive flow, not friction?
How does AI actually help?
Join me every two weeks for straight talk with the people shaping the future of dev.
This is the [Dev]olution.
Pauline Narvas (00:00:00):
People need to carve out more time to watch more videos, do a course, read a book, read an article and take those learnings and actually use them in the real world in their work.
Nicky Pike (00:00:13):
This is [Dev]olution, bringing development back to speed, back to focus, back to freedom. I'm Nicky Pike. Okay, so everyone's talking about AI killing developer jobs. Vibe coding, we've got agent shipping code, the death of the junior developer. LinkedIn absolutely will not shut up about this, but here's the part that nobody's saying out loud. Reddit, Discord, Quora, they're all growing because of AI, not despite it. People are getting fatigued on talking to LLMs and they're quietly piling back into communities with actual humans in them. While every company is obsessing over models and prompts, the ones actually winning the developer mind share are building the one thing that AI can't fake. Real messy human connection. With me today is Pauline Narvas. She's the head of community platforms at Vercel. Pauline got into a wild path to get into this role and she's got a take on AI and community that may surprise a few people.
(00:01:06):
She's also, more importantly, she's one of us. So she's a former Destiny Halo two player who's been on the receiving end of some very bad Xbox live behavior. So we're going to get into that too. Before Pauline and I jump into this, here's the challenge on the table. Everyone assumes that AI is pulling developers into a lonely or more automated world and yet tech just officially overtook gaming as the single biggest interest on Discord. Engagement in non-gaming communities is outpacing gaming by 8%. People are spending more time in real communities. They're not spending less. So what's actually going on here? Is community getting killed by AI or is AI the reason that community is having its biggest moment in years? That's what we're going to be digging in today. Pauline, welcome to The [Dev]olution.
Pauline Narvas (00:01:48):
Hi, Nicky. So nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Nicky Pike (00:01:53):
Oh, my pleasure. So a couple things. One, if nobody's ever got to see Pauline, if they never got to see her speak, they've never got to see her more. Buckle in because she is a ball of energy. Absolutely adore talking to her. It's so much fun. But more importantly, we get to do something new on the show with Pauline. We get to do the first breaking news exclusive with Pauline. Yeah, you've got news to tell us.
Pauline Narvas (00:02:16):
I do. I guess when this podcast is released, I would've moved on from Vercel and I'm starting a new role at OpenAI to help lead the Codex community efforts and I'm very excited.
Nicky Pike (00:02:31):
Oh, that is amazing. I'm sure Vercel's a little sad, but I guess Sam Altman's probably sitting on his chair going, "Ooh, we've got Pauline."
Pauline Narvas (00:02:40):
I mean, I'm always going to be a huge fan of Vercel. At Vercel, we call ourselves Vercelians and I think I'm just going to be a Vercelian for the rest of my life. Absolutely adore that company.
Nicky Pike (00:02:51):
Well, I mean, you've worked hard, you built up a great team there. I mean, how are they taking the news?
Pauline Narvas (00:02:56):
I mean, yeah. I think mostly the main emotion has been like, wow, I'm so sad, but I'm also really happy for you and your career and the impact you're going to make. And I think I'm personally really proud leaving Vercel at the time I did because the team that I've built up, they're all just a bunch of superstars with the skills and knowledge that you need that we really need right now in the community space, especially in this whole AI world. And I just have full faith they're going to completely execute the mission that we had here at Vercel. And yeah, I'm just really excited to continue following their careers.
Nicky Pike (00:03:40):
This is absolutely exciting because you're getting to leave a legacy at Vercel. You built up something so incredible there and now you get a chance to forge a new legacy.
Pauline Narvas (00:03:48):
I'm excited.
Nicky Pike (00:03:49):
I can't imagine how excited you are. I mean, that's a huge shift. Good for you. Congratulations. Remember folks, you heard it on [Dev]olution first.
Pauline Narvas (00:03:56):
Yeah, this is the first time.
Nicky Pike (00:03:57):
Yeah.
Pauline Narvas (00:03:58):
First podcast I've done since.
Nicky Pike (00:04:00):
That is awesome. I can't wait to see the good things that are coming into that. So Pauline, before we get into the AI stuff, I've got to start with how your path led you here. So you started as a biomed major, you skipped a class, you got an email about a coding course and now you're running community at Vercel. But on our prep call, you told me that the moment you felt most alive wasn't when you were writing code, it was when you were connecting with people who were. So break that down for me. What clicked that brought you into community and really excited you about that?
Pauline Narvas (00:04:29):
Yeah. So for those who don't know, I started coding when I was about eight years old. So I was very early on the internet building websites, connecting with people online. One of the websites I created was like one of the many, was like a high school musical fan site where I essentially was just talking to people who liked high school musical, the film and we connected over that. And so throughout my touch points of tech, I was always connecting and talking to people. And I think the time I felt most alive, it was really a stark contrast because I also became a software engineer later in my career. And when I was really heavy into the engineering work, I was mostly heads down, focused on moving a ticket from left to right. And that was great because I got a lot of work done, but then I felt like the time I was definitely much more alive, awake and more in tuned with my strengths and what I'm interested in was when I was talking to people who were like me, who wanted to learn more about the things I was nerding out about and we could just discuss it for hours and hours on the internet or in person.
(00:05:45):
So at university I helped teach a course with a organization called Code First Girls and as part of that, what I essentially did was I spent like four to six hours a week teaching two different courses at the university where I just taught women how to code their first website. So there was two courses. It was intro to web development and advanced Python. I taught both of them and I just felt the most connected to like a mission. And the mission of Code First Girls was to get more women in tech, to teach technical skills so that women could also enter a very male dominated industry. I'm a very mission driven person. So got that mission and I was like, I understand it. I really want to see it through. So for the rest of my university life, which was like I spent four years at uni, I pretty much did that every single year.
(00:06:40):
And by the time I left, I taught around 300 women how to code. And I think just to go back to me being a software engineer, even though I love doing that, closing tickets, for me it was like the people. It was the impact of what I taught them because some of them ended up being software engineers. They ended up landing their first tech jobs and some of them I still connect with and talk to. They have thriving careers in tech and they wouldn't have gone there. They wouldn't have doubled down on that path unless they did that course with me. So yeah, I think for me that was really the moment where I was like, actually I want to do more of that where I talk to people, give them the resources, empower them and show them what is possible so that they can end up in a better place whether that's like in a better job or something they get to do something that they're actually passionate about.
(00:07:39):
And I just think when you're a university and schools, maybe they're different these days, but when I was growing up, a lot of schools and teachers and career advisors were like, there's like three very good roles, like jobs that you can do in your life. You can be a teacher, you can be a lawyer, you can be a doctor and that's it. And so that was pretty much all that I knew. And I think once I opened up my kind of world to tech and talked to more people in the industry and in the wider community, I realized that, hey, I can literally create a role and pave this path for me. And so I want to do that now for other people, which is why I'm really passionate about community building and this role. I love tech and I just want to do that in tech.
Nicky Pike (00:08:28):
So what was the real moment? Was it that you enjoyed teaching? Was it that you enjoyed teaching tech because that was your passion? Or was it really the mission of I want to get more girls into this industry that typically girls weren't in at the time?
Pauline Narvas (00:08:42):
I think it was a mix of all of those things. But as I said, I am very mission-driven person and I think for me, I saw the mission, I saw, I understood that yeah, there's not many people like me in tech or even in the computer science department. So I wanted to help change that. But also I love, I think it's that light bulb moment of figuring something out, understanding it and then being able to share it with someone else and then they have that same moment. It's just such a good feeling because then you do that at scale, like what can you achieve then?
Nicky Pike (00:09:20):
Yep. Well, and a quick one on that, because you told me that when you were in school, you were the only girl in your computing class and the boys were telling you that you needed to go downstairs to the owing class instead of being in coding. So first, suck it boys look at her now, right? Not only has she created this great community around Vercel, but now she's using the tools that you are probably using to increase your output. So how much of that moment, of them telling you that you should be in sewing class, how much of that moment has fueled what you're doing today?
Pauline Narvas (00:09:52):
Yes, 100%. It was definitely that moment as well. I think so when I was in that class, I felt quite isolated and I definitely did wonder, am I in the right place? Should I drop out and actually go to textiles is what we called it, textiles or what should I do? And I think it was that moment where those boys were like, "You can't do this because you're a girl. You don't belong in this class where I felt this need to be to prove that I could." And then I did. At the end of the class, I actually ended up getting a star, which is I guess an A+ over there in the States in the class and I got the highest grade and it felt so good. It felt good. And I was like, "Yeah, I told you guys I could do it. " And then obviously now landing in tech, it's fantastic
Nicky Pike (00:10:46):
And see, there's something I love about that story because I'll be honest, I'm a little guilty of this myself. When I was in Xbox Live and we were building out Xbox, I worked a lot with a group of female gamers that they called themselves the PMS clan. And they were out there, they were doing all these first person shooters and I had this desire to be protective because boys are just, they're effing awful, especially when a girl's beating them at their own game and I felt this need to protect them and I quickly found out, no, I don't need to. These girls take care of themselves. They do it just fine. And heaven help you if there's like three or four of them in a room and you say something inappropriate because you're going to die quickly in these games because they're going to gang up on you.
(00:11:25):
And so I learned very quickly and I think this is a great story of, hey, boys, like I said, suck it. Look at her now. She's created this great community. That's awesome. I love everything about that story.
Pauline Narvas (00:11:35):
Yeah, yeah. It's a story I like to reflect on whenever I'm like, whenever I get imposter syndrome and I'm like, should I actually still be here? Should I pivot? Do I belong in this industry? Yeah, I'm still here persisting because I know I'm supposed to be here.
Nicky Pike (00:11:54):
Yeah, because you're that good. And if you ever start feeling that down again, just call me. I'll be the first one to go call somebody.
Pauline Narvas (00:12:00):
I'll listen to this podcast
Nicky Pike (00:12:01):
Again.That's right. There you go. All right. Let's jump into kind of the problem and what we're talking about here. So AI has made it stupid easy to ship something that looks production ready. I mean, we can go out, we can vibe code a front end, a website, a crud app and we can do it before lunch. Looks ready and is ready. Those things live in two different zip codes and you're sitting inside right now one of the most active developer communities on the planet. What are you seeing? Are we building better software or are we just building broken software faster?
Pauline Narvas (00:12:31):
So I'll use the example of v0. So I feel so privileged that I joined Vercell literally just before they launched v0 and it's funny saying v0 now because it wasn't v0, it was like version two. It wasn't the first iteration, it was definitely the second that did really well. And when I was part of that launch, it was incredible to see the behind the scenes and what the teams are shipping, but the community and our users that gathered around that product, most of them loved it because they could just literally prompt a app from nothing from plain English. They didn't need to know the ins and outs of things. And I think it was super empowering and you know I'm all about empowering the user, giving them the tools to build things literally for them to do anything, to just ship anything. But then being in the community where we get a mix of very positive feedback, but also the constructive feedback, I started to see a pattern where it was very much like, I vibe coded this and now it's broken and I don't know and the AI isn't helping me and I don't know how to fix it or I run out of credits and I don't know how to fix it.
(00:13:52):
I want to continue working on this. And so I started to realize that no matter what, I still strongly believe that if you want to build your own app or even get into tech and be an engineer, you need to know the foundations. You need to understand the very basics so that when you find yourself in a situation where it's like, "Oh wait, I don't want to continue prompting this. I want to move this away from this platform to another one." You can easily do that because you understand how Git works, for example. And so yeah, I feel like there was a moment where we're still very early in AI in general. I just feel like it's still in this moment where prompting things, creating beautiful UIs, but then things are like spaghetti in the backend. And this is why you need to understand how things all work so you can plug them all together and be like, "Actually, this could be a full working app." So I think we're just so early.
(00:14:50):
I think we still have a lot we could do here.
Nicky Pike (00:14:53):
Oh, I agree. We talk to people all the time and we get the same statement of we're just at the tip of the iceberg right now. But me personally, I often tell people, I don't even think we're at the tip of the iceberg. I think it's just starting to get cold and it's just starting to snow. We have yet to even see the iceberg yet. So it's going to be interesting and I agree with you. I think the foundations there are incredibly important, but there's also this weird dichotomy of I can use AI to build code, but now I can also use AI to learn code to learn some of those basics because it's like we've got YouTube. The biggest technical university in the world is YouTube and not only for tech, I built my house, my house we call the house that YouTube built, but now instead of watching videos and watching things, I can go talk to AI.
(00:15:37):
I can have it help explain to me. And not only can it walk me through things, but it can also point me to places to go and get more research if I want to. And it's an incredibly exciting space because now we've got a tool that can work for us but can also teach us at the same time. Now a lot of people argue, "Well, is it teaching the right things?" Well, that's a litle bit on the person. The person has to be, again, to what you were saying, you've got to learn the foundations and you got to be able to spot when AI may not be telling you the right thing.
Pauline Narvas (00:16:03):
Yes. And this is actually why I've used AI before to teach myself a concept that I'm not super familiar with and it's been great, but then I still feel like there is a gap and maybe call me old school, maybe I'm just old school, but this is why I really enjoy courses. We have an academy team at Vercel actually where their job is to create courses to help people learn more about Vercel and all the different feature set that Vercel and the platform offer so users can optimize their workloads and things like that. I just feel like unless you know all the different pieces and know how they kind of all link up together, I just don't think just talking to an AI to be like, "Okay, how does this all work without knowing the pieces?" I just don't think that will work very well, which is why I believe courses are still great.
(00:17:02):
And maybe I'm also biased because I taught courses from start to finish, helped build curriculums where I'm like, "I feel like we need to start from zero here and work our way up." But yeah, I think call me old school. Whenever I'm learning something new, I'm like, let's start again from the beginning and read it in a book.
Nicky Pike (00:17:21):
So let me push back on that a lile bit because do you think that is because you're old school or is that just a remnant of the fact that when, like you said, you taught courses, you lead community, there's a human aspect to courses that you don't get with AI.
Pauline Narvas (00:17:33):
Yes, a hundred percent. I mean, we can segue into this good discussion, but we in the Vercel community, we've basically seen this where our users end up in our community spaces because they're desperate to find human to speak to because they have exhausted all the AIs where they've pasted the error logs and it's still going round in circles and it doesn't know the context, it doesn't understand a simple error, it's hallucinating and they end up on our community spaces like our forum because they're like, "Please, what am I doing wrong?" And often there's so many examples in our space where me or someone in my team's like, "Oh, I've seen this problem before and someone else has actually seen this problem before. Here's a link to it. Can you try that? " And then it's like, "Oh yeah, thank you so much for helping me fix that.
(00:18:28):
I didn't realize that because I didn't know and the AI didn't know either." And so when there was that whole discourse of let's replace custom support with just AI, and that backfired on a lot of companies. A
Nicky Pike (00:18:41):
Lot.
Pauline Narvas (00:18:42):
A lot, a lot of them. So I think we still need humans in these spaces, more important than ever.
Nicky Pike (00:18:48):
I think that's why we're seeing the growth in Discord. This is why things like Stacktrace existed. And I don't know if it's just for learning, it's just to not feel alone. I got this problem, especially right now in AI where everybody seems to know everything there is to know about AI. And I'm telling you right now to everybody that's listening to those people that say that they know everything, they don't, right? They're lying to you, but people start feeling like they're behind the curve ball on this, right? They're behind the eight ball. We're slow to this. So just going out there and saying, "I don't get this, " and having somebody go, "I don't either."
(00:19:21):
That goes a long way. That keeps you going and it keeps you wanting to learn and it keeps you from getting frustrated and wanting to abandon the project. But also as a field CTO, one of my favorite events, the things that I love the most are like exec round tables. I love getting a bunch of people in a room and just talking about a problem. Why? Because one, it makes you know that you're not alone, but two, the best ideas come from people talking about their failures and things that they've done to fix and that might lead somebody else to go find a new way. I think that talking is what brings everything out.
Pauline Narvas (00:19:53):
Yeah, 100%. It's like we just spend way too much time talking to LLMs and I don't know, sometimes I feel like some LLMs also confirm what we're thinking and has that bias towards like, "Okay, yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right." But then sometimes I know I've had this where I've spent weeks working on something and I've used AI on all of my workflows and then I go to a meetup or even go for a coffee with a friend and I'm like, wait a second, I didn't even think about that other option because we're humans and we have all these different experiences and we all come from different backgrounds. We're not all just a machine. I think I'm more bullish on human experiences and human connection more than ever and community roles more than ever because that is the value right now in this AI world.
(00:20:44):
We just need more of that. I think people will reach a time where they're like, "I'm so fatigued. I really don't want to talk. I don't want to type anymore to an AI. I don't want to do voice notes with an AI. I don't want to do that. I just want to talk to a real person." And as I said, I've seen this already in our community spaces.
Nicky Pike (00:21:01):
Agree. I will say, I think AI is getting better. I do think it's very much biased or confirmation. Yeah, I want to make you feel good about yourself, but quick story. I work in AI quite a bit. I use it for a lot of different things. I got into an argument with my AI. I was like, "No, I want you to do this. " And it came back and it's like, "I hear you, but here's the reason I'm saying what I'm doing." And it was like a 30 minute back and forth with AI saying, "Well, okay, explain why you think this. " Here's the moral of the story. It changed my mind after arguing with AI. I was like, "Oh, all right, I kind of get your point now." So I think it is getting better on that, but the fact that it pushed back on me, one was surprising and two, the fact that it pushed back enough that I ended up actually changing my mind with something completely different.
(00:21:43):
I was like, okay. I need
Pauline Narvas (00:21:43):
To get better at prompting is what I'm hearing because my AI is all like, "Yeah, you're absolutely right all the time. Maybe I am." Maybe I just am.
Nicky Pike (00:21:52):
Or maybe it just knows me and it knows I like to gargue about stuff. So in speaking on that, so Vercel's whole brand is around developer experience and you get to sit in a part of Vercel where people tell you the stuff that you're not going to hear on the sales calls, that you're not going to see anywhere else. What are developers venting about in your Discord at midnight or in your community channels that nobody's putting on a slide deck today?
Pauline Narvas (00:22:18):
Oh, that's a really good question. Let me have a quick think about that. I think there's a lot of, I think top of mind actually something's just come up. So I think one of the things that Vercelle wants to improve on and it's definitely improved on since I've joined is our deployment for things like the Python runtime. We actually ended up hiring and acquiring, I believe, a Python team from one of the core Python communities to help work on our Python runtime because it was definitely one of those biggest developer pain points where we have a Python developer being like, "Hey, I want to have this seamless one click experience like you have on Next.js when you deploy to Vercel, but we want this with Python. What do we do? " And I think it was a recurring thing that took a couple of months to be my team flaglist as a common theme.
(00:23:15):
So one of the things that my team does is we collect all this feedback back and make sure that these insights are taken seriously internally by our product and engineering team so that they can then add it to their roadmap and then really prioritize that. So yeah, I think the Python experience was one of them and eventually I think one of the best moments I've had at Vercelle was definitely when I had, I could go back on all of these threads from a year ago or even on Twitter/X or LinkedIn where people are talking about Verstile needs a better Python runtime experience. And I could go back a year later and be like, "Hey, just to close this loop, we actually hired this team and they have built this. They just shipped this. Can you try it out? " And people going back and being like, "Oh my gosh, that was from like a year ago.
(00:24:04):
Thank you so much for listening to my feedback and making me feel seen." And at the end of the day, that's what community is about, making people feel seen and making sure that they feel heard in their feedback so it's not just going into an empty void. So yeah, to answer your question, it's definitely the Python runtime where it's not necessarily, we don't go parading around saying the runtime is not as good as the next JS deployment, but yeah, that was something I would say was top of mind.
Nicky Pike (00:24:34):
And see, and I think that's a great place. So I work with Marco Martinez, who's our community manager quite a bit. We do the same thing and this is the difference between software now and software even like five years ago, 10 years ago, the old Microsoft adage of we'll put something out, we'll ship you something new in two years and it's going to be completely different and you got to rethink things. That's one thing that if anybody listening to this takes away and what you just said is community does have a real impact on software now. We've got the design partnership, you've got yours and it is. It's really fun to go back to the users and say, "Hey, you remember that problem that you brought up? We fixed it. And by the way, thank you. This was because of you. " And it makes people, like you said, it makes them feel heard.
(00:25:15):
It makes them feel like we're listening and we are listening, but it also, it's a way to create loyalty because people see that and they're like, "Well, this is a product that's working for me. It's not a product that I'm having to work around."
Pauline Narvas (00:25:28):
Yes. And then they feel like they're also part of the journey and they're like, "You know what? I'm going to show up again in this community." And that's how we get those, like you said, loyalty, the fans that keep coming back, the community members that keep showing up, the names keep showing up with new feature requests, with new bugs, which is always really good. Feedback is amazing.
Nicky Pike (00:25:48):
Yeah. They become like a part of the team itself when you get
Pauline Narvas (00:25:51):
Those really
Nicky Pike (00:25:51):
Involved community members. They're like unofficial members of the team. They're unofficial employees of the company because they are putting a lot of their time and effort to tell you what's wrong so that you can fix it.
Pauline Narvas (00:26:01):
100%.
Nicky Pike (00:26:03):
Now you and your team, you talk to developers every day and we are seeing this shift happening right now where developers, they're not really writing code anymore and there's people that are debating that. There's people saying that's a good thing or it's a bad thing. But the reality is that now they're directing code, they're directing AI agents, they're approving pull requests, they're reviewing code that they didn't actually type and they're making calls about systems that they didn't build. That's a very different job than what we're used to. So to you, what does a good developer even mean now? Because it seems like the skills that got people hired four or five years ago, they do not look like the ones that are mattering to companies today.
Pauline Narvas (00:26:41):
Yeah, 100%. Oh, I have so many thoughts on this one. Let me try and articulate it. So I think for me, when I've been hiring for my team and how I approach hiring in general, moving forward in new teams I will create, one of the main things is communication. I can't stress enough. I mean, I've said it before before AI, but being able to communicate your ideas and share them with everyone in your team across different functions, being able to articulate that also now to agents so that they can write it and build that new feature for you, whatever it is, raise that pull request for you. I think that is more important than ever, like being able to prompt well. And to me, being able to prompt well means you need to be good at communicating. So that's number one. I think there's also this foundation of caring a lot because I think it's so easy for you to get hired to be a software engineer and kind of just be like, "Oh, I'll just let my agents run it and do it and I'll just be more hands off.
(00:27:52):
I'm just watching things happen rather than writing code." But I think my best hires have always been the on that actually care a lot about the mission, the product and what we're doing here because work takes up a lot of our lives. And it would be a shame to do work where you're just kind of like, "Oh, I'm not super enthusiastic about it, but I'll just do it. I'll just click these buttons and yeah, sure." And I think the kind of thing I look for is this spark of just caring a lot and therefore really having this drive to make changes. And there's several, I mean, my whole team at Vercell did this and there's several examples of where even when I'm sharing my thoughts on an idea or direction, people have in my team pushed back and been like, "Yeah, I care about it so much that I actually think we should do this later and do this instead." I love those people.
(00:28:51):
I love those passionate people that challenge me and make me stop and be like, "Actually, you might be right. Let us talk about it. " And I just feel like that's so rare these days, especially as engineers where you can just get your agents to write everything for you, just caring. I also actually wrote a blog post with some of the other qualities that I'd love to share with everyone if everyone wants to read the post, but it's essentially outlining the things that I've shared here, like communication, caring a lot and more specific to community endeavor traits, but I think it's well worth a read because it's definitely what I also see my peers hiring for. I think it's like ultimately, now I say it out loud, people are looking for more people, as weird as that sounds. The more human you are, like human authenticity, that's it these days, that's what people want.
Nicky Pike (00:29:44):
No, I agree with you. And first and foremost, yeah, we'll put the link to your blog in the show notes. So everybody go to the show notes and you'll be able to look at what Pauline was talking about there. But on the communication front, there's also a difference there. The way that we talk to humans and the way that we talk to agents is very different. I 100% agree with your caring statement, but again, to go and quote your new boss, he told us, quit saying please and thank you to AI because it costing millions, but it's very hard for some people not to ... It does a good job for me. I want to tell my AI, thanks. I appreciate what you're doing. But we've been told not to do that. So they're very different communication styles as well.
Pauline Narvas (00:30:22):
100%.
Nicky Pike (00:30:22):
Yeah. I mean, I can talk to you, me and you can have a conversation and it'd be like something very easy and you get where I'm going. AI, no, I've got to be very specific with AI about what I wanted to do. I can't give it a lot of room to roam or else I'm not going to get what I want.
Pauline Narvas (00:30:36):
Yeah, 100%. I mean, it also is communication in a sense where even with humans, when you have different audiences, people in my team and myself included, I know when to say certain things, like certain level of information to, for example, a non-technical audience compared to a very technical audience where I can do a bit more of a deep dive. Because if I go straight in to a non-technical audience of all of the different features, like really going into it and explaining the behind the scenes of how it's built, people will switch off. So it's like communication, no matter the role, no matter the job, it's so important no matter what, especially now.
Nicky Pike (00:31:15):
I agree with you on that one 100%. Okay, so we've talked about communication, we've talked about some of the problems here. Let's start digging into what you think some of the solutions are. And one of the things that nobody wants to talk about is we've got people out there that are declaring community dead. Why do I need to go to Discord or why do I need to go to a forum when I can just go and ask ChatGPT? But the opposite of that is what we're seeing. Reddit's growing, LinkedIn's growing, Discord is growing. You told me that Sam Altman himself said that community is one of the few areas where AI is going to make things more valuable, not les. So what's happening here that everyone's missing that is not involved in this? Why is AI behind this boon of community today?
Pauline Narvas (00:31:59):
Yeah, I think it really links back to what we were saying earlier. As I said, I think people have started to feel this fatigue of like, I don't want to just sit here and talk to AI. I want to connect with a real human. And I've seen this. When I think of a community journey of a typical community user where they join a community space, like for example, community.vercel.com, our main community platform, they join and they see other people having discussions, they see someone from my team, they see the same avatar come up again and they're helpful. They're like, "Oh, cool. That's like a real human." And then maybe they join our live sessions with our community or our customers, our product teams or partners and they're like, "Hey, they're actually real human beings behind the replies. That's really cool." And then maybe we launch a meetup in their local city and they're like, "You know what?
(00:32:54):
I'm going to go meet that Vercelle team in person." And then they go there, they become a super fan, they keep going to events, they end up being an ambassador maybe and they have this really human community journey. And I think this is why we're seeing a boom in community spaces because I think people are just craving human connection. And if that human connection isn't even in person, I'm also just talking about just being able to talk to someone even just on the internet and connecting with them because I just feel like, especially in the last few years, with the advancements in AI and the wider tech industry, I just feel like that's what people are craving more than ever. So I think that's number one, and this is something that my team at Vercel had been optimizing for the last few months where it was like, okay, we have agents, we have AI, what can we do with AI that will actually help us increase our human connection time?
(00:34:02):
And so again, I'll share a blog post on this with you later, but I wrote a blog post just summarizing what we build. Essentially, we created AI community agents that kind of live in the community platform and they do all of the community moderation stuff that is a little bit tedious that nobody loves to do, but we have to do it. So for example, if there's multiple questions that come in that are from the last hour that are all very similar, maybe it's related to an incident or a bug that affects a couple of people. We have the agent that reviews all of that and it's confident that all of them are kind of like the same topic. They merge all the posts together and they're like, "Hey, I noticed that this is all similar. Let's put them all in one to one thread." And that's really good because then people in my team are like, "Oh wait, we have one thread reporting one issue.
(00:34:57):
We should raise an incident internally so that we can fix this issue as soon as possible for all of these users." And alternatively, another thing is where maybe someone posts a topic that was discussed months ago and it's like somewhere there on the internet in the platform that no one can find, but our agent is like, "Hey, do you know someone asked about this age ago? Maybe this will help you. " And maybe it's not correct, but then at least someone in my team will be like, "Oh wait, the agent has given them some resources so they can self-serve and if it doesn't help them, it's okay. I can jump in. " And yeah, that may sound like we're automating all of the answers in the community, but that's not it. We actually have more time to then be like, "Hey, thank you for hanging out.
(00:35:43):
Show us your project. Let's do a live session, let's talk, let's jump on a call and do more of the human aspect of things whilst the agents and AI just in the background doing all the, I would call it grunt work that no one really wants to do, but it also keeps the community organized, which is great.
Nicky Pike (00:36:00):
And I think that's a great line. I think people, when they first hear that, we're using AI to help us create a stronger human connection. People may push back on that, but I think you described that perfectly 100% because it's not AI. You're using AI to keep your people from having to read hundreds of threads and trying to link all that stuff in their mind. And that's one of the things AI is great at is it finds those patterns and it can raise those. And to your point, it's allowing us instead of spending our day reading all of these Discord threads, now I can concentrate on the fun things, the places where I really do get to connect because it's raising this up. Hey, here's an issue. Let's have a little live stream workshop on this or let's go out and, hey, here's somebody that's done something really cool that maybe I would've missed in the length of threads.
(00:36:43):
Let's highlight them. I think that's a great example and for the people that would push back, they got to think about it a little bit further than what they're just hearing on the statement.
Pauline Narvas (00:36:51):
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think there's so many examples of this in our community where people are like, we've successfully helped them faster because our agents have helped us identify the problem faster. And then they come back because they're like, oh, I love this platform. I love this space because A, I get great support, but also B, these people are, they care about me. They actually care what I have to say. And then to our discussion earlier, it just brings that brand loyalty that the community members altogether and they just keep coming back, which is great.
Nicky Pike (00:37:29):
Well, and I've got to ask this question as well because every community has that old curmudgeon, right? The one that nothing makes them happy, they complain about everything. Are you using AI in any of those fashions to say AI's popping up and go, "Oh, Nicky's in the community again and he's bitching about something." Does that help you try to target people to say, "Okay, I need to change this person and maybe make them not so grumpy."
Pauline Narvas (00:37:52):
Yeah, that's an interesting ... Because I could talk about the moderation aspect of that because it's weird because someone's very specific popped up in mind. I mean, I'm sure everyone has this in their communities, like everyone has that person. Well,
Nicky Pike (00:38:07):
The
Pauline Narvas (00:38:07):
One person,
Nicky Pike (00:38:08):
Nothing isn' happy.
Pauline Narvas (00:38:09):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think for us, we really enforce our code of conduct because the community at Vercel have been very ... Everyone's very passionate, which is ... I love it. I love that. Everyone just cares so much about the product, but then that can also go completely the other way where they are so passionate that they become angry and then they start attacking people randomly. And it's easy to when you're behind the screen. So there's been instances where that happens. But yeah, in that instance, in particular, what I just shared, we set up this automation where essentially whenever someone kicks off like that, we just assign the system bot and then we use AI to answer to reply to them because some of them just rant. There's literally nothing we can do. So we just assign that and then they kind of just answer it.
(00:39:00):
To be honest, when we set that up, I was like, I don't see us using this that much. And I think we used it once so far in the two years that I've been here that I was at Vercel and yeah, that's one thing. And then there have been times where again, when something is very negative in the community that we get that flag that is like we have that sentiment and we can then loop back someone in my team or even me where I'm like, "Hey, let's chat. Do you want to jump on a call?" And that is something I always offer. I always offer a call. I'm like, if you want to chat about it live, it's so insane how you can just offer a call and they're still angry. They're like, "You know what? I'm going to jump on this call and I'm going to just rant to you on the call." And then you completely diffuse them because as soon as they jump on, they're like, "Wait a second, this is actually a real person and they're really genuinely trying to help me and remove this pain from me.
(00:39:52):
" So they ease up and then next thing you know, they join the community again the next day and they're like, they've gone from being a hater to someone who's active and neutral.
Nicky Pike (00:40:03):
Yeah. I think with the pandemic, with all the remote work, I think that pressure relief valve is huge because I mean, this happens in our personal lives. If you get mad about something and you've got no way to get it out, then it just builds. Or it compounds ... Being able to jump on a call with somebody and just listen, let them yell for five seconds and then say, "Okay, I hear you, but what do we want to do about it? " That's usually enough to just make people go, "Okay, I got it off my chest.
Pauline Narvas (00:40:31):
Now
Nicky Pike (00:40:32):
I can think about this rationally." But if you feed into it, then you're just going to turn them into a nuclear bomb and you don't want
Pauline Narvas (00:40:37):
To do
Nicky Pike (00:40:37):
That. I think that's an important part of community is just letting people get stuff off their chest.
Pauline Narvas (00:40:42):
Yeah, 100%. And it is, like I said, I think the more the people that I have hired, I always look for qualities where they are as human as they are. I don't want people to lean into being more robotic because they can just talk to their agents all day and they can just be super efficient. I hire for that human aspect and the more authentic they are, the more they show up in these community spaces being that human, it's surprising how ... I have some data on it, but it's so surprising how I've managed to build this team at Vercel where everyone is so kind and so genuine and everyone really wants to help each other and the wider community that again, when the avatar pops up in any thread on any platform on Reddit, on X on our forum, people are like, "Oh, actually, yeah, everything's ... It's fine.
(00:41:38):
Thank you so much for helping me out when maybe their initial message is very hostile." But yeah, this is why it's more important than ever to have humans in your team.
Nicky Pike (00:41:47):
And you said something there. I want to click down into that because you said something there about hiring and when we look, the most recent writer enterprise survey has 95% of execs saying that roles and team structures are changing because of an AI and 60% of them say that they plan to lay people off who can or won't adopt that. And that's the climate we live in today. But when we were talking on the prep call and you just alluded to it right there that one of the things you look for is you say you can't coach heart. And I love that
Pauline Narvas (00:42:18):
Statement.
Nicky Pike (00:42:19):
You can't coach heart. To you, that's a non-negotiable when you hire and you're specifically looking to hire people with potential not that resume gold. So break it down for me. Why is heart the one thing that you won't compromise on when it feels like the whole industry's going another way? And how do you even actually spot that in like a 30 or a one hour interview with somebody?
Pauline Narvas (00:42:40):
Yeah, I have to say I think so Ben Lang from the Cursor community actually posted about this on Twitter/X recently, but he said that he's actually hiring for a community role right now and he said something along the lines of like, "We've hired from the community multiple times and they always make the greatest team members because they have that heart, they have the passion, they have the care for the product already. So it just makes them the easiest hire." And I also have done the same in my career so far, not just at Vercel, but also previously at GitPod I hired directly from the community, from the people who kept showing up every day who really cared and if they met the requirements with everything else, I just hired them. And so most of the time, by the time I get to the point of like I want to hire them, I want to interview them, it's not been 30 minutes.
(00:43:34):
It's been like small interactions over a long period of time. And so I already have a good sense that they have this heart that it's just for me now it's more about the potential of just teaching them things about the product, for example, that they don't know. And that's okay. You don't need to be an expert from day one or before that to interview with me. It's mostly like I am looking for those people skills that heart and that real eagerness to improve and being coachable as well. So yeah, I think if anyone's listening and they're thinking of like, who should I hire? Look within your community. There's definitely someone there. There's a superstar there for sure.
Nicky Pike (00:44:21):
Yeah. And I think that goes the other way as well, people that are in the community because it's almost like a long resume. You get a true measure of person when you get to see them in their natural element, I'll say. When they've got a litle bit of anonymity from the internet, you can see what a person's really like. You can determine a culture fit before you ever decide, "Hey, I might want to hire this person."
Pauline Narvas (00:44:45):
100%. Oh my gosh, how many times have I, hiring managers have asked me, "Is there someone in the community that you'd recommend?" And I'm like, "Actually, I met someone at a meetup, you should talk to them, or they have been contributing to our space recently and they keep showing up and they're great. Here, talk to them." And yeah, there's so many success stories actually at Vercele. I'm thinking of one of our, I believe he landed a solutions architect role, but he was in our community for months sharing really good feedback, sharing his projects that he's built on v0 and the wider Vercelle ecosystem And eventually his name came up in the interview, one of the hiring managers said, "Do you know this person? I'm interviewing them right now because they applied for this role." And I was like, "I do know that person. And you know what?
(00:45:33):
Here's a link to their community profiles across all the different platforms. You can see that they're so helpful. They've got 500 solutions." People actually mark his post as solutions like, "You should definitely hire him." And yeah, now he's hired and he's doing really well.
Nicky Pike (00:45:50):
Yeah. And by the way, these five features were based on stuff that they told us.
Pauline Narvas (00:45:54):
Exactly.
Nicky Pike (00:45:55):
So they're kind of already working for us. We might as well start giving
Pauline Narvas (00:45:58):
Them some money for it. Yeah, technically. Exactly.
Nicky Pike (00:46:01):
Well, so not only is Vercel an AI forward company, but you use AI in your team. Give us something practical for the listeners. A team, they're listening to you right now, they're shipping with AI, but something just kind of feels off to them. What are two or the three things that they should change come Monday morning, come next week to help them out with that? And I don't want you to give me this BS, well, they need to develop an AI strategy. Give me something that they can actually do this week or on Monday when they come in that would help them use AI better and actually improve their day.
Pauline Narvas (00:46:33):
You know what? One of the things that I used to do a lot more than I do now, I should definitely take my own advice here, but one of the things is going back to the courses as I mentioned earlier, spending and dedicating some time to learn about how other companies are doing it. Actually, if you're listening to this podcast, you're already halfway there, which is great, but I think people need to carve out more time to watch more videos, do a course, read a book, read an article and take those learnings and actually use them in the real world in their work. Because I used to do this all the time. For example, when I used to be a DevOps engineer back in the day, I wanted to learn a lot about what's the best AWS architecture that I can use in my team, what is the most efficient and why is it the most efficient?
(00:47:28):
And so I did a lot of learning. I actually ended up as a result of that thread, completing two AWS certification courses because I really wanted to understand it. And I think because I carved out that time, it was only one hour a week on a Friday where I took that time to learn and dedicate myself to understanding that I then became very good at my job there when I was a DevOps engineer. So yeah, I would say it's very much the same thing. You can easily go on Twitter and scroll and read thousands of different opinions about AI, but actually do your research yourself and take these opinions and then maybe form your own and push your own kind of narrative internally on experiments. Experiments are so important. It's okay if you ... So how many community experiments have I shipped that did not go well, but I'm so proud that I did them.
(00:48:20):
It's the very same thing with AI. If one tool doesn't work for you but then another does, that's okay. Just keep experimenting, keep shipping. That's the whole motto of Vercel. Just keep shipping, keep iterating. So yeah, I think that was the main thing, learn, dedicate some time to learning about that space and then taking the learnings from there to your organization, experiment as often as you can and it's okay. No one is an expert. If they say they're an expert, they're not. No one knows. We're so early, too early actually. Nobody knows. So yeah, experiments 100%. And then I would also say maybe this is full circle, but consult your community. Talk to your community. I used to say that I'm very community taught. So everything I learned that got me to my career has been taught by the community. And so talk to your community, join me ups, join discussions online in person about AI and learn from there.
(00:49:23):
I mean, I guess this is a good time to pitch. We have OpenAI Codex meetups happening all over the world and one of them, I mean, the ones I'll be hosting will be in London. So join one of them and talk to us about it so we can share that knowledge and have that mind share
Nicky Pike (00:49:40):
Together. Damn. So see, you haven't even started yet and you're already pitching the new stuff. Hey, come join us
Pauline Narvas (00:49:45):
On the community. Of
Nicky Pike (00:49:45):
Course. And you haven't even, as a time of this recording, you haven't even started yet. That's amazing. I agree with you. You say way back in the day, remember, I've been doing this for 30 plus years. What I see right now is not even a hockey stick. It's a rocket ship. I've lived through the dotcom. I lived through the hypervisor, the cloud craze. I've never seen the technology take off like this. And you are absolutely right. I ended up started waking it up early every day just to spend an hour looking at what's changed since last night because we are at that stage right now where things are changing so fast that you've got to stay on top of it. You can't do just an hour or two a week. You got to spend 15, 20, 30 minutes a day just trying to keep up.
(00:50:24):
And Rod Whiteley, who is our CEO here at Coder, he would agree with you because that's what he told the company. That was one of his mandates to us employees was just go out and play with it. I'm giving y'all free reign. Take time out of your day to just go do whatever you want to do on AI, get familiar with it. And I think that that had a huge impact not only on our culture, but the way the company feels about AI and the way we're approaching it, because we may do it for things that have nothing to do with Coder, but we're learning in the process, we're discovering things and that becomes things that we go out to our community with and we talk about. And like you said, not everything succeeds. All these experiments you run, they may fall flat on their face, but you never know when that might inspire somebody else to come up with something very cool.
Pauline Narvas (00:51:06):
Yeah, 100%. I remember the CEO at Vercel also said the same thing, G, he was like, "We need to ship more agents. We need to use agentic workflows, experiment, have fun." And as a result of that, I raised the most PRs I've ever raised probably in my career, just shipping ideas and trialing it out. And with Vercel, we had a preview environments and we had all these sandbox playgrounds so that we can play with it and really see if it works. And it was great. It definitely changed the culture and also changed my mindset of how I approach experimentation. So it's been great.
Nicky Pike (00:51:44):
Well, and that brings up a completely different talk, but when we start talking about just going out there and experimenting and playing because here's a number in my research that I found that kind of stopped me cold and it was 48% of employees out there that were surveyed said that they would keep using AI tools even if your company explicitly banned them. Even if they said, "No, you can't
Pauline Narvas (00:52:02):
Use
Nicky Pike (00:52:02):
AI tools anymore." 48%, nearly half, Pauline. And so one of the takeaways I get from that is that tells me that maybe governance by policy is dead, right? You can't top down mandate this stuff when developers think this is something that improves their lives or improves their productivity. And if bands from the company don't work, it makes me question what does. Is this a place where you think that maybe community is actually the immune system here? This is where the norms are going to get set peer-to-peer instead of top down instead of executive driven?
Pauline Narvas (00:52:32):
Yes, 100% is my answer. I mean, I've always felt that way about community. I feel like the things that stick is always from your peers. I mean, you can listen to all these folks at the top and it's great for inspiration and things, but I genuinely believe the things that stick. I mean, thousands of examples in my head right now where I have listened to someone in the community, I'm like, "Actually, yeah, they're just like me. They have a similar situation and yeah, I'm going to kind of follow their lead." And yeah, 100%. I totally agree with that statement.
Nicky Pike (00:53:09):
Excellent. All right. Now we're going to do something new. I'm going to try something new on the podcast with you. We're going to do rapid fire questions. First thing that comes off your mind, no thinking about it, just answer it. And they don't have to be long answers, but rapid fire. You ready?
Pauline Narvas (00:53:24):
Okay. This is difficult because I like to yap, but yes, let's try.
Nicky Pike (00:53:27):
Oh, you can, yeah, but you don't have to. I want to hear the first thing that pops in your mind when I say these things first.
Pauline Narvas (00:53:33):
Let's
Nicky Pike (00:53:33):
Go. Biggest community hype right now that needs to die.
Pauline Narvas (00:53:40):
Oh, I don't want to get ... Okay, cafes. Cafes.
(00:53:48):
Yeah. This is nothing against the cursor cafes, but they set the tone where essentially they create meetups that are in a coffee shop and you just have coffee. So it's like more of a morning thing or a day thing rather than in the evening. And I understand the appeal, but I also, yeah, I don't know what the ROI is on them. I don't understand it. And I've joined one where I'm like, okay, yeah, I kind of understand you do this in the middle of the day, but also a lot of developers can't join in the day because they have to go to work. They actually have the more traditional nine to five job. Whereas when you do them after work, people tend to show up more. I don't know. I don't get it, but maybe I need to run one myself.
Nicky Pike (00:54:34):
Maybe, right? Discord or forum?
Pauline Narvas (00:54:37):
Forum.
Nicky Pike (00:54:38):
Forum?
Pauline Narvas (00:54:38):
Full stop. Yeah. Okay.
Nicky Pike (00:54:39):
Yeah.
Pauline Narvas (00:54:40):
No Discord.
Nicky Pike (00:54:41):
One skill every developer should be building that they're probably ignoring right now.
Pauline Narvas (00:54:44):
Communication.
Nicky Pike (00:54:47):
Love it. There's a tieback. Your favorite AI tool, what's the AI tool that you actually trust most right now?
Pauline Narvas (00:54:53):
Codex.
Nicky Pike (00:54:55):
Oh.
Pauline Narvas (00:54:56):
Yeah.
Nicky Pike (00:54:57):
I love you
Pauline Narvas (00:54:58):
Up for
Nicky Pike (00:54:59):
That one. Are you kissing up for the new job or is that
Pauline Narvas (00:55:02):
Real? That's actually real. I use Codex so much. It's fantastic. I use it for literally everything.
Nicky Pike (00:55:10):
Okay. All right. We'll let that one pass. I don't know. I'm questioning that one a little
Pauline Narvas (00:55:14):
Bit. I believe ... Oh my gosh. Well, technically I haven't started when we're recording this, so technically you should believe me more than ever.
Nicky Pike (00:55:22):
You know what? Good point. That's legit. The one thing AI will never replace in a developer community.
Pauline Narvas (00:55:28):
Human connection.
Nicky Pike (00:55:30):
Great. Xbox Live or PlayStation Network?
Pauline Narvas (00:55:34):
Xbox Live
Nicky Pike (00:55:36):
Has- Aw, see, I knew I loved you for a reason. Me and you were going to fight if you said the other one. PlayStation's not even allowed in my house. I don't even ... I spent so many years fighting them. It's not even allowed in my house anymore.
Pauline Narvas (00:55:46):
It's only Xbox.
Nicky Pike (00:55:48):
Oh, good answer. All right. So coming up on the end here, we end episodes with predictions. I'm going to give you a hot seat one. 75% of execs in the latest writer survey say that they expect AI agents to be in their C-suite within the next five years, not supporting it in it, sitting at the table. So do you think that actually happens and how the hell does community survive when AI becomes part of the C-suite? Do agents need their own community too?
Pauline Narvas (00:56:17):
I don't believe that. And maybe again, I'm old school, but no, I just really disagree with that. I think the only way that would be possible, the only world that makes sense is if agents support C-suite. I don't see them having a role as suite, but maybe I'm not forward thinking enough, but for me, that just doesn't make sense. Okay.
Nicky Pike (00:56:44):
No, that's the purpose of these questions. We want that idea. We want to start some conversation on that. I'll follow that up with, how do you think we make sure that humans don't get edited out of this conversation with the growth of AI?
Pauline Narvas (00:56:56):
By continuing to talk about it and being the ones that have the strong opinions to then make those changes or drive that discussion forward. I
Nicky Pike (00:57:07):
Think we agree here. It all comes back to community. You keep talking to the people that are passionate about things that have the similar thoughts and that want to get somewhere with that. I think that's what you're saying. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Pauline Narvas (00:57:17):
Yes. Yes. Community all the way. It's all about the people.
Nicky Pike (00:57:22):
All right. So final question. This is one that we ask everyone, and I know you know this if you watch the show. After everything that brought you here, the biomed degree, the blogging when you were eight years old, which I do, I still honestly find that a litle bit nuts that you were blogging when you were eight. The boys telling you to go to sewing class, the DM from GitPod, scaling Discord from 500 to 5,000 users and building agents. What's the one thing that AI can't replace and what does it mean to you, Pauline, to be a coder?
Pauline Narvas (00:57:49):
So I think the one thing that AI can't ever replace is community and that human connection. And I genuinely just think, as I have kept saying throughout this episode, we will always go back to wanting to speak to real people, whether that's in person or online and people will crave it more than ever and maybe we'll go back. Maybe it's like we swing back and forth where we're like, okay, AI only. We're so AI pilled we only speak to AI and our agents. And then there will be a point where we feel like this isn't natural and I need to talk to someone. I need to be around other people. And maybe it's just that's life now. We just kind of swing back and forth from them, but I just don't think community will ever go away. In fact, I think it's just going to double down even more.
(00:58:43):
I'm seeing it already. So many events in person, so many community spaces trying to recreate that in- person connection and I just think it's just never going to go away. And yeah, I think what does it mean to be a coder? I just think it means to be someone who is empowered to build and just ship things.
Nicky Pike (00:59:07):
I agree with you. Pauline, first, I want to thank you for coming on the show. It is always so much fun to talk to you. You bring so much energy and glow to a room. I can't wait to see what the future holds for you. I can't wait to see if maybe me and you can do some things together as part of this.
Pauline Narvas (00:59:22):
Absolutely.
Nicky Pike (00:59:23):
Can we consider you a full-fledged member of the [Dev]olution?
Pauline Narvas (00:59:27):
Absolutely. I thought I was already in the club. That's weird.
Nicky Pike (00:59:32):
That's awesome. That's the first time a guest has said, "What do you mean? I thought just being here made me a part of the club." You mean this was a trial I had to interview? I
Pauline Narvas (00:59:40):
Didn't know. I was
Nicky Pike (00:59:41):
Interviewing and didn't know it.
Pauline Narvas (00:59:44):
There you go. All
Nicky Pike (00:59:45):
Right. Well, we're happy to have you. Like I said, I can't wait to see what comes and please keep us informed. We'll be talking more. And folks, me and Pauline, before we got on this show, we were talking about some possible LinkedIn wars that we may end up having on some differences of opinion union that we've got on things. So stay tuned for that. But thank you very much and keep in tuned and we'll see you next time.
Thank you for listening to [Dev]olution. If you've got something for us to decode, let me know. You can message me, Nicky Pike on LinkedIn or join our Discord community and drop it there. And seriously, don't forget to subscribe. You do not want to miss what's next.