Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Paul: All right, good morning, Tom.

Good morning, Paul.

I'm excited.

Yeah, me too.

Book 5.

I finally know for sure where in the
book we are as we start this episode.

Because usually at the beginning
of every episode I have to be

like which bullet point are we on?

And this time I know exactly where we are.

New book?

Yep.

Very exciting.

New book, new Marcus.

Yep.

We'll see.

I've already pre read a little bit
of it and it looks really good.

Wow.

I'm excited.

Okay.

Very exciting.

What do we want to bring
to the pod this week?

You told me before the podcast
that you had violated a rule that

we set at the beginning of this
series, which I think is fine.

I'm not I'm not mad.

But you have, you've done a
little outside homework on Marcus.

I did.

Yeah, I couldn't help myself.

In a moment of weakness, I went
And downloaded a short audiobook

about just a biography of Marcus.

Okay.

And I learned things that, that
I'm not, I'm glad I know now, but

aren't surprising in retrospect.

We learned, I learned that Marcus
was selected effectively because

he didn't want to be emperor.

And that was, that, at the time,
that was considered a qualification.

That was considered great, yeah.

The, 'cause I think Romans have this
obsession with even though they were,

they had single man rule at this point.

They were always supposed to
be like, Nores like anti king

that was their whole thing.

And so they, I think they were
constantly struggling with, like

the senate was there, but they.

Pointless in a one man rule situation.

So I think for, it didn't really make
sense that there were this, like this

long period of time where they were
the empire that was supposed to have

no Kings that was ruled by Kings.

Yeah, I see.

To not want it.

There's a funny tension there
with being so anti King.

When royalty is to me, the
quintessential example of leadership

where you might not want it because
it's, it's inherited as opposed to

you get appointed to it or whatever.

But they're like, no, that's a bad
arrangement, but we definitely want a

leader who does not want to be our leader.

Yeah.

I'm always surprised by almost the
opposite, which is that it feels like in

history, most of the people who were Kings
were like pretty stoked about it, but like

they really wanted to hold on to that.

Yeah, whereas I, I guess I would
have expected more of them to be

like anyone else want the job?

I'm good.

I'll be like a, first deputy and I'll
have a great life and I won't have all the

stress and the beheadings and all that.

I don't know.

Yeah.

That is an interesting point.

My, my guess is that we're
maybe overestimating how

good it was to be not king.

No.

Oh, to be not king.

That's the thing.

I think maybe being the king ruled in part
because other lives were so much worse.

Yeah.

It's like the show succession.

I don't know if you've seen it
where I just, the part of the

storyline I can't get past is why
all four of these kids want to be

the CEO of this company so much.

Yeah.

But one of them doesn't, okay.

Yeah.

But in, in the show, like Their
life as not, operator of this

massive conglomerate seems great.

Yes.

Yeah Yes, they don't make it great
for themselves, but it could be great.

It could be great.

Yeah This isn't a succession podcast But
I'll just say it seems to me or the thing

that makes that show make sense to me
is that being CEO For them is very tied

up in receiving love from their father.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's And that's probably
what's driving emperors too.

Yeah.

It's probably a lot of ego.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that was one thing we learned.

Another thing I learned was just the
details of how difficult his life was.

Like he Marcus's.

Yeah, Marcus's life.

He he had some ten children or
something with his partner Faustina.

But six of them died.

It was just, so he, six times
in a row, have a kid dies, have

a kid dies, like just horrible.

His brother dies really early on
there's one of his best generals

conducts a mutiny and there's about
to be a civil war and there's just all

everything's constantly falling apart.

And I, I don't think it's a I don't
think it's a coincidence that he was

the last quote unquote good emperor.

It just sounds the sort of the ship
is sinking and you're on board,

you're doing your job, better than
anyone where this thing is headed.

Yeah, I see.

Interesting.

So it sounds suffice it to say, this is
a guy who might need some philosophy to

consult in some ways that makes it not
surprising that he's the kind of character

who might write a text like this one.

Yeah, that's true.

And then I'll say one other thing,
which I'm almost a little reticent

to say, which is that the other Roman
history book, I'm cheating all around

the other Roman book that people
have been reading that's why we're

interested in this stuff to begin with.

Yeah, is a Mary Beard book about
emperors, where she shares her

perspective on meditations.

She doesn't think that this
is just his private journal.

Her belief is that he very well
knew that this would be published,

and this was his attempt at infamy,
which worked perfectly, right?

Mastermind.

Nice move, Marcus.

Totally great move.

But, it's not he did, he thought, if
you're the emperor, nothing is private.

You know that someone is
gonna, find this thing.

And if he really cared about
being private, he would have

burned it before he died.

Yeah.

I don't know how that makes me feel.

In some ways it makes me feel a little
Betrayed we're reading propaganda.

We're getting cheated.

Yeah, we're getting like, false
Whatever false niceties choked down

our throats, but yeah, I'll say this
Yeah, even if you pitched this book

to me as propaganda Yeah, here is
the concept of what Marcus thinks we

should know about him posthumously.

True.

An interesting book It's not
the most obvious thing to write.

Sure.

As the Emperor.

And it might reduce our consternation.

I think the two of us have been
framing it so much like this guy

is, this is his dear journal moment.

That we've been doing backflips to make
it all make sense and I think this framing

will help us let go a little bit and
say, okay, I understand why Marcus is

not giving examples in this scenario.

That's not the point.

Yes.

Yes, that's it.

That's interesting.

Yeah, that's true.

Maybe if he was Reddington himself,
he would be fine throwing this

or that person under the bus.

Yeah.

Okay.

So hopefully we just become more relaxed
readers of the text, knowing this framing.

Not all historians.

Yeah, okay.

But at least they appear.

Yet another reason, in a way, to be
sympathetic to Marcus as an author here.

Yeah.

Which is that he's managing.

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

Agendas as a writer.

Yeah.

To, in addition to all the other
enormous stuff that he is managing.

Yeah.

My wife keeps a journal and.

I think it's something that
just is so innate to the

concept of a community journal.

She's always cognizant of
where she puts the journal.

I'm never gonna, I'm
never gonna violate that.

I'm never, I'm not gonna go and read
it, but, she knows where it was,

and she's kinda, sometimes she's Oh,
like I really hope that x, y, z, if

someone's staying over, or like my
sister or something didn't read it.

I'm like, I don't know.

No one's going to violate that,
but there is, I think it's just

innate, if you're actually writing up
something private, it's quite scary

that someone could just open it.

Yeah, I wonder what Marcus's practices
were with regards to secrecy.

Yeah, like where did he keep the snack?

Did he have a little
hard key and lock it off?

On his neck, he had a little key.

Exactly.

Yeah, where was it?

That's a fascinating question.

It's a password.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Alright, what was it?

Simbaba.

I forget what the Yeah.

Cave.

Cave password.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

And you as the emperor you have so many
servants, so many people are constantly

like Yeah, if you think it was someone's
full time job, keep the journal safe.

Don't read it.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

No that's crazy.

He also, the other thing is that he
was like constantly had these bouts of

just deep, like near death sickness.

Oh, wow.

And illness back in that day was
not like, we'll have a, we'll have

strepto and be like, yeah, okay.

Like we know roughly
what's going to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

It'll, yeah.

It's okay.

It's a week of sniffles.

Got it.

Yeah.

And you have this ability to
predict the future every time.

Anyone in the to live alone totally.

Yeah you, you get, you say goodbye, you
get ready to, Oh my gosh, I recovered.

Amazing.

Thank you.

God.

Yeah.

And you, like despite being like whatever
blood to death and all these other

things that the medical practitioners
were due to treat that somebody that.

Was at best orthogonal to your
illness at best and worse.

Yeah.

That's just take deal lists.

So he had all these You know six
month stints where with just meeting

death like staring death in the
eyes Wow, just being bedridden for

six months at a time crazy stuff.

Yes I'm loving that you brought this
to the podcast because I do think

it's a source of yeah I want to

feel this kind of sympathy
for him every time we start.

Yeah.

Yes a way of Entering the,
I think it's easy in part

'cause the writing is so cool.

Yeah.

To feel distant from him and stuff.

But yes.

The more we can have this
reminders of this reminder of

this is what his life is like.

Yeah.

It was hard.

Yeah.

The whole time.

Yeah.

I, yeah.

I think that makes us better
readers of the text and Thank

you for bringing that Yeah.

To the podcast.

I'll I may very well.

Okay I, you have my full Permission.

Yes, permission to keep doing that.

Thank you.

Cool, okay.

Book 5 has no title.

Some of the other books have had
titles about being in Carnuntum or

whatever, or on the banks of the
river something, quays or something.

Yeah.

Book 5, no title.

Wasn't needed.

No need for a title.

No need.

Let's just, yeah you might have
needed hooks to read the first book.

First four chapters.

Yeah.

time.

You get to this one book,
he knows you're hooked.

Yeah.

I know.

Need I'm not wasting my time.

Yeah.

Writing a title for this thing.

Okay.

The first entry in book five is big.

I'm gonna read.

Oh, it's so classic too.

It's everyone has heard this one.

This one is famous.

Yes, this one's famous.

I think, feel free to interrupt me while
I'm reading this one, Paul, because

otherwise it's just a long piece of text,
and I might also pause partway through it.

Sounds good.

Okay, here we go.

Book five, number one.

At dawn, when you have trouble
getting out of bed, tell yourself, I

have to go to work as a human being.

What do I have to complain of if
I'm going to do what I was born for?

The things I was brought
into the world for.

Or is this what I was created for?

To huddle under the
blankets and stay warm.

Okay, pause.

What were you created for, Tom?

Yes, that is one of the things.

I also had the exact reaction.

Did the manufacturer leave a note?

I don't know.

It might be machine learning engineering.

Ask your mom.

He might not.

Yes, it's a thing that I'm always
intensely jealous of with Marcus.

I really, it seems to me that
he feels that we just know.

Or he lived in a time when
people, your job is correct.

The thing is, he was
created for something.

Yeah.

He was groomed from day one,
basically, to be the emperor.

Yes, and I think he just can't amass,
we're obviously, The rest of us.

He doesn't need to.

Imagine a world in which we, the
amount of liberty that we have, right.

Which is great for lots of reasons,
I'm not complaining about it.

But we have these conundrums
that he did not have, right.

About having to figure
out what we were made for.

Okay.

So it's obvious for him,
I have to go to work.

The work of being an emperor.

Yes.

Yeah.

And my job is not to huddle.

Huddle into the blankets and stay warm.

He's about to have a back
and forth with himself.

get that way.

Wait, what is my job?

Or what was I made to do?

But yes.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

Okay.

That whole thing that I just read
about, I have to go to work, et

cetera, et cetera, is in quotes.

And then he is, he has a response to that
where he says, but it's nicer here dot.

I feel like that should be, I should
get that printed out on a nice

like canvas board above my bed.

Yes.

Quote Marcus Aurelius.

But it's nicer here dot.

Yes.

Okay.

And then this is a conversation basically.

So responding to that.

So you were born to feel nice?

Instead of doing things
and experiencing them?

Don't you see the plants, the birds,
the ants and spiders and bees going

about their individual tasks, putting
the world in order as best they can?

And you're not willing to do
your job as a human being?

Why aren't we running to do
what your nature demands?

Response, but we have to sleep sometimes.

I think I like this second
narrator quite a lot.

We haven't met this person as the text.

One of these speakers I recognize.

Okay.

In response to, but we
have to sleep sometime.

You recognize the other one, Tom.

Come on.

I do, yes.

But it's me talking all of a sudden
instead of Marcus, which is a delight.

Yeah.

Okay.

But we have to sleep sometime.

Agreed.

But nature set a limit on that,
as it did on eating and drinking,

and you are over the limit.

Sick.

You've had more than enough of that.

But not of work.

There you're still below your quota.

It's so robotic.

Yeah.

Totally.

It's below your quota.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wow.

Okay.

What is, do you think, how
much do you think he sleeps?

What's enough?

That's what I was wondering too.

I wonder if he has the concept of
eight hours a night or if he has

he's citing these other, yeah.

Don't you see the plants doing their jobs?

They don't sleep at all.

Not that hard for them to do their job.

Animals sleep 16 hours a day.

Does he know how much, he brings, he
seems to be avoiding mammals in his room.

That's true, yeah.

Because mammals are the sleepy ones.

Yeah.

But birds and ants and spiders and
bees, I think, also have to sleep.

Spiders effectively do nothing.

Yeah.

Because they don't have to warm
their own bodies, so they don't

need a lot of And feel vibrations.

Yeah.

When they get like upset
because they're hungry.

Yeah.

They fly.

They just fly to a different place.

, that's like the one thing they do.

Yeah.

Sorry, that's a little animal fact.

Yeah.

No, this is he's very much talking to
himself, but it's phrased as all of us.

Yeah.

Yes, I do think so.

There is a thing.

There was a point at which it was very hip
to say, the point of life is to be happy.

Yes.

And I thought that was like
a very cool statement too.

And and it feels so empty.

You say that Yeah.

And you're like quite proud of
yourself 'cause you solved everything.

But and then what Okay.

Yeah.

It's just even if that's true,
it gives you no, no actionable,

it's nothing to hold onto.

It's like a slippery little pebble yeah.

And if anything, knowing that
makes it harder to accomplish.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

It's so much harder to be happy
than it is to just do my job.

Now that's your job.

Totally.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Good luck.

Yeah.

I'd much rather have a quota.

Yes.

Totally.

Yeah.

So that's interesting, too.

I think he is in a situation,
unlike us, where Be Happy is

this very open ended Yeah.

And it's on you to figure out how
that works for you, and how it, both

what it means for you personally and
how that fits into the broader world.

Yeah.

He has a job.

He, even though he's the Emperor,
he is, in some sense, still a

sort of functioning cog Yeah.

in a big machine, basically.

Whereas we Not as much
like that in modern life.

Yeah.

The line, but we have to sleep some
time, dot, is, it's such a weak argument.

Does it mean that he, is he
trying to force himself up after

having had very little sleep?

Or is that you slept your eight
hours and then you say, but

we have to sleep some time.

Yeah, it's a good question, because either
it's a good argument or a bad argument.

Exactly.

On the one hand, either it's a winning
argument because he only slept two hours.

Yeah, exactly.

Or he has had eight hours of sleep.

I'm actually inclined to think it's the
latter, that he is talking to himself just

when he's being lazy and weak, basically.

I think, if we're imagining him
just scolding himself for getting

a fourth hour of sleep or whatever.

It's a pretty, yeah, let's go with that.

Yeah.

Let's go with that.

I think he is just doing the
thing we're, we all know.

Yeah.

Which is, it's cold out.

You don't want to get up yet,
but you, like you could, yeah.

You're not, you wouldn't
be insane to get up now.

It's not how I convince myself to stay
in bed, but we have to sleep sometime.

If I've already had my eight hours, Yeah.

I convinced myself with something
more what am I gonna do?

Or, Hey, I'll just work harder later.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

I can rearrange things.

Yeah, no problem.

Yeah.

Yes.

So it's a weird argument, but yeah.

So be it.

We have to sleep sometime.

Yeah, I agree.

It's a pretty easy, he's doing
a bad job with really making

the strong case for sleep.

This is making me, this is calling my
attention to the propaganda part of it.

Oh, interesting.

Marcus Aurelius.

Look how great of an emperor he was.

He has to force himself to get some sleep
because he's so dutiful to the empire.

Except that he's actually doing
kind of the opposite here, right?

He's scolding himself
for sleeping, basically.

That's what I mean.

It's the fact that you have an
emperor who's scolding himself

for sleeping, and here you are,
sleeping eight hours a night.

Yeah, you.

Yeah.

That's not what you were made to do.

Yeah.

Okay.

He goes on and he's just getting the tone
continues to be pretty scolding here.

Okay.

So after he says, You've had
more than enough of that, meaning

sleeping, not of working, there,
you're still below your quota.

He continues with.

You don't love yourself enough.

What?

Or you'd love your nature too,
and what it demands of you.

People who love what they do
wear themselves down doing it.

They even forget to wash or eat.

Do you have less respect for your
own nature than the engraver does

for engraving, the dancer for the
dance, the miser for money, or

the social climber for status?

What?

And when they're really possessed by
what they do, they'd rather stop eating

and sleeping than give up practice.

Is helping others less valuable
to you not worth your effort?

Okay, that's the end of the intro.

Yes, so if you sleep, you're
worse than a social climber.

Yes, and what it is, it's evidence
that you don't love yourself enough.

That's so the opposite
of how we think of it.

Yes, we think of it as self care.

Sleeping and self care care
about your own emotions.

But he's, I think he has made an
interesting point, that if you're sleeping

so much, or just and I think maybe we
could expand this beyond sleep, as you

just indulge in laziness, which is what
he's talking about, that it's you're

being, I interpret this as being like,
you're insufficiently grateful for the

thing that you've been given, that you
are, you've been given these gifts to do a

job, whatever it is you're called to do in
life, and if, the way to express is to do

it with zeal and love it and do it to the
point that you, it kills you basically.

Which is hard to square
with modern values.

It is not you cannot live this way, right?

We're, I feel like the kind of person
he's describing is somebody who

exists in the American consciousness.

It's like Elon Musk or something.

Sure.

He is the sort of person he's describing.

That's true.

Or just workaholics in general, people
who like, are obsessed with their work.

But I, so I think that's maybe
an interesting point too, is that

for him, for us, work is just
like this part of who you are.

Or maybe we exist in a world where maybe
people like to define themselves by it,

but for him it's you should love what you
do so much, you forget to eat and sleep.

Yeah.

That's hardcore.

It's hard to relate to a little bit.

I'm remembering another.

fact for my illicit reading.

He was also the head of
religion in the state of Rome.

Which was a kind of unheard of
post to have the emperor also

be the head of the religion.

And this was a very turbulent time for
what it, for like religious identity.

This was a transitionary period
where the gods were still around,

but also Christianity was around
and it was gaining traction.

And there was all these like
different ideas and in many ways.

I guess I can see this as
almost a religious text.

I was about to say, yeah, should we
interpret this then as a religious text?

Yeah, it's not, the Bible has a
lot of things like this in it.

Yeah, that's true.

You just, your job you're here to till
the soil and then you'll go to heaven.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah, it does feel like he is
providing, in a way, like a competing

concept of like, How humans fit
into the universe, basically.

It's much less individual reward
based, and much more just like,

How lucky you are to be a part of
this at all, so shut up, basically.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a very interesting
lens for us to have moving forward on.

Yeah, we read a little
bit of religious text.

Yeah, exactly.

I guess the other, the last thing
I'll say is this whole The lists

he gives are always so funny.

Yeah.

I think the other thing that has to
be discussed here is the list of jobs

and the people who love their jobs.

The engraver.

The first two I fine.

The dancer.

The dancer, that is like a good
example where I'm like, yes, I can

understand a professional dancer
probably really loves dancing.

An engraver loves engraving.

Sure.

The miser.

We're already into the world of not jobs.

Yeah.

Not a job and like just a person who loves
money or the social climber for status.

There's probably some interesting
translation stuff going on there

because social climber feels like
such a specific phrase to me, the

social climber who loves themselves.

And knows that it's their nature.

Yes, so there are people.

Yeah.

Whose purpose in life.

Is to socially climb.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's who they are.

And similarly, there are people
whose job it is to accumulate money.

Yes yeah When, and they're really
possessed with what they do, rather than,

They'd rather stop eating and sleeping.

Than stop accumulating money.

Because they're so dutiful.

Or such a stylist.

Yes.

I agree, that kind of breaks the metaphor.

It's just weird, he had so
many other jobs to pick from.

Yeah, it feels like he's, what he's
emphasizing is, It's people who love

stuff, as opposed to Yeah, jobs.

Yeah, it's Yeah.

Yeah, maybe we're being
too fixated on jobs.

We have this concept of jobs that for
him is a little bit more, like for some

people social climbing is their job,
and for some people it's engraving.

Yeah, it's very liberating.

If this is a religious text, it's
a very liberating one, where he's

like Prostitutes prostituting,
misers getting money, like it's

whatever you are be a good one.

Yeah.

And he has made that, he has used
effectively that phrase before.

Yeah, that's true.

It's nice.

Yeah.

And that whatever you are does not have to
be what makes money or is like your, yeah.

Very liberal.

Yes, that's true.

Very Americana.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Be a streamer, kid.

Yeah, that is weirdly way ahead of
its time, or something even more,

even less commercial than that.

Yeah.

I actually really that part of it cause
I think the only, I was thinking about

this the other day you have a kid, they
tell you they want to be a professional

basketball player, but they're, 5'4
what do you what do you say, right?

You can't say I don't know about that.

You have to be like, go for it.

Right?

Cause.

Let's do it.

Like, how can I help, yeah,
I think there's probably

the best parenting probably.

Somewhere in between.

Yeah, you can be supportive and
encouraging, but also help them realize

that if they go down the road of trying
to be a 5'4 professional basketball

player, their life might be hard.

And so you can tell them
both of those things.

Yeah.

I just don't think it's gonna be so it's
gonna be so obvious to them very early

on, that if they're 5'4 they're gonna have
a hard time, that like, why even say it?

What's the point of you why
take away that agency from them?

At that point?

I guess that's, they're
testing their limits though.

They don't, they might not know that.

Where this is very hypothetical, it
depends on how old they are and stuff,

but I think, yeah, part of the parent's
job is to gently enforce the logic of

the world, because even though they might
know that intellectually, kids don't

really necessarily, they might think I'm
special, yeah, I guess Marcus would say,

as long as you love this so much that
you forget to eat and sleep, go for it.

Which is a very high bar.

Yes, exactly.

There's probably a better way to phrase
that as a modern marriage, but yeah.

I mean It's probably
the right ish response.

There is something nice about it okay,
you can do that, but like the way, just

so you know, the way that the top echelon
of people who do this professionally,

have to make these sacrifices.

Yeah.

Are you cool with that?

Yeah.

You good with that?

Like that's very realistic.

Yep.

That could be a little brutal for yeah.

Marcus is brutal.

That would have been his response.

Yes.

I agree.

I think we are a little softer now.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number two, to shrug it all off and
wipe it clean, every annoyance and

distraction and reach utter stillness.

Child's play.

Come on, Marcus.

It's not child's play.

If this is child's play, why do
you have to keep repeating it?

Yeah, it's funny.

It sounds like a swipe.

But now that I'm interpreting this
as a religious text, I interpret

this as a swipe at Buddhism.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Wow.

Alright, Marcus.

Sounds good.

I'm glad you think so.

Okay returning to this concept
that he did intend this to be read.

This seems Is he flexing?

One way of reading this is, he's flexing.

He's flexing.

He's I can do this.

Yeah.

But, that seems like a weird
thing to write to yourself.

If you really can do it, you don't
need to write this to yourself.

So it's, I think what he's actually
saying to himself is like This is

a thing that I'm, if I wrote this
in a journal, it would be because

I was struggling to do it, and I'm
reminding myself, Hey, wait a minute.

Stop doing that.

This is it shouldn't be so hard for you.

Basically.

I think if that was the case,
you wouldn't write Child's Play.

You know what I mean?

It's a very particular phrase.

Like very dismissive, you can
do it, or something like that.

Yeah.

I hear what you're saying.

Okay.

So why did he say child's play,
? The, I, like you think your first

explanation that like, he's a flex.

He's, yeah.

Just for for him it's child's play.

And if you want to be as great as him and.

Then you have to also believe that.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's intense.

Oof.

It makes it a hard
religion to follow, yeah.

It does feel like Christianity has a
more , it's like a little bit nicer.

Yeah.

Work hard, but you got a reward.

At least you get a reward.

But one thing that's nice about Marcus's
religion, to the extent that we can

think of it as like a unified body of
religious thought, is that you don't

have an, or you're not inherently
flawed from the beginning in a way you.

Are like you are in Christianity.

Oh yeah.

You can be.

It's more, you're good.

You got a nature.

Yeah.

You're a part of this good thing.

Yeah.

And you always were.

And all you have to do is just, yeah.

You're a social climber.

. Yeah.

Just keep your alignment with the
thing that made you, and Yeah.

Listen to what it's telling you.

Yeah.

And you're good.

Yeah.

As opposed to you're born with sin in
your heart and That's true actually.

Yeah.

There's, it's interesting.

Which one of those is more com?

I'm not sure which one of those is more
comforting in a way, because one of them.

Marcus gives me less of an explanation for
why I'm so unhappy or why I do bad stuff.

Why is this not a child's
play for me, yes, exactly.

In some ways we are all born
with sin in our hearts because

we like sleeping in, in.

Yeah, that's true.

But at least Christianity identifies it.

Yes, and it's in some ways,
It's like it wasn't your fault.

In a way, it's not your
fault in Christianity.

Whereas with Marcus, it
really seems like it's not.

Look at this guy!

I can do it.

Yeah, child's play.

Yeah, why can't you do it?

Like, all you have to do
is this, and it's fine.

Impossible.

Shrug it off.

Wipe it clean, every annoyance and
distraction, and reach utter stillness.

Child's play.

Yeah.

Okay, we're back from short hiatus.

Okay, cool.

Alright, child's play.

Child's play.

Moving on.

Number three.

If an action or utterance is appropriate,
then it's appropriate for you.

Don't be put off by other
people's comments and criticism.

If it's right to say or do it Then
it's the right thing for you to do.

Or say the others.

Obey their own lead.

Follow their own impulses.

Don't be distracted.

Keep walking.

Follow your own nature and follow nature.

Capital N Along the road, they share.

Okay, yeah.

This feels ignore the haters.

Yeah.

. This one feels like it could
be, not quite, but it's almost

like a high school girl's diary.

. Yeah.

It feels.

Don't be put off by
other people's comments.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is interesting.

Boy, what did, what cutting remark
did Regina George or whatever make

to Marcus in the cafeteria where
he has to go home and write in his

journal, Don't worry about her.

Yeah I almost want to lean back on the,
this is meant to be read pillar and just

say, I don't know if it's as an adult,
you need to remind yourself of this.

Yeah.

It's funny.

Maybe you do all of a sudden
he's really worried about what

other people think and say.

Yeah.

I agree.

It But, yeah, no.

He's fleshing out this
philosophy for himself.

Yeah.

He's the kind of thing where he's
just giving himself a little reminder.

Yeah.

It would be fascinating to know
what person could say anything to

him that would affect him at all.

Yeah.

My mental concept of him is no one
he's bulletproof, yeah there's a famous

general who yeah says that he's not
a rightful heir or whatever so right

there's that The others obey their
own lead follow their own impulses.

Yeah, a weird thing for an emperor to
say because The others obey you, is

actually, theoretically what happens.

Yeah, that's true.

I do the follow your own nature and follow
nature along the road they share is cool.

That last sentence that there's it's
a little more complicated than his

typical narrative where just you're a
part of nature and so go with the flow.

It's, he's identifying that you
have a nature, which is separate

in some ways from capital N Yeah.

And your job.

Is to align those and figure out how it is
that you fit in with capital and nature.

Yeah.

That resonates for me.

Like I, I think that feels still
true to a modern reader, right?

That we like Yes.

Part of your job is to figure out
where you belong in the world.

That how capital and nature.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's that part I like.

I like that too.

The rest of it I agree, seems
surprisingly insecure or something.

Yeah.

For Marcus, at least to a modern reader.

Yeah.

And the other thing that I'm
realizing as we keep reading it,

it's this book is so eye focused.

It's he's an emperor, he, his job is all
about setting rules for other people.

And all he talks about is himself.

Yeah, rules for himself.

Yeah.

How to govern yourself.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's weird.

Yeah.

Others obey their own lead.

I think most of your job is
telling other people what to do.

So Yeah.

Maybe it isn't.

Maybe we don't understand
exactly his duties.

But I would presume so much of it
is like Look, you set up principles,

and you make them fair, and then if
someone violates those principles, there

are consequences to that violation.

It's a very that's what would, I
don't know, as a leader, I presume

that's what you have to lean on
more than, I don't know, he keeps

thinking about himself here.

I, I think that's like the, I think you're
hitting on something that is a part of

what is unique about his philosophy.

Yeah.

Which is this philosophy is very much
about you get your own house in order.

Yeah.

That is the only thing that
you can control, and so it's

the only thing that matters.

Whereas, yes, I think other if the
philosophy was about, like, how to

teach others or punish others or
whatever else, then it would have to

be a completely different philosophy,
because his whole thing is, there are

the things you can control, which is
you, and you should worry about that,

and everything else you can't control.

Yeah.

Yeah, I Yeah, it's different in the
sense that like the Golden Rule is the

classic, moral test to see, hey, if
everyone did this, would that be okay?

And then you can create your own
guidelines for what you can do.

Yeah.

I guess he's doing that to some degree.

If an action or utterance is appropriate,
then it's appropriate for you.

I guess that's what he's saying.

Yeah.

That's an interesting way of
articulating the Golden Rule.

But then he talks about how others obey
their own lead, follow their own impulses.

Yeah.

Another way of reading it is just
don't judge your neighbors, right?

You just Yeah.

Yeah.

All this stuff you can do, like
It's another human limitation.

You don't have enough perspective to
judge the actions of others, yeah.

Yeah.

Very, yeah, humble in a way.

Humble and self centered.

Yeah.

In a, I'm not saying that in
a bad way, just, it is about,

very much about himself.

Yeah.

I think that is true of, as
you point out, the whole book.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number four.

I walk through what is natural until
the time comes to sink down and rest.

To entrust my last breath to the source
of my daily breathing, fall on the source

of my father's seed, of my mother's
blood, of my nurse's milk, of my daily

food and drink through all these years.

What sustains my footsteps and the
use I make of it, the many uses.

Basically.

Is poetry for Marcus . That's nice.

Yeah.

I agree.

Yeah.

I enjoyed it too.

But it's I walk through what
is natural until the con time

comes to sink down and rest.

Yeah.

Sick.

Yeah, totally.

Hard to disagree with you there.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

It is hard for me too, not to wonder
what's going on for you there, Marcus.

You're Yeah.

He must be sick.

He's sick.

Yeah.

You're sick and and bombarded by.

Yeah.

The demands of his insane life.

Yeah.

And he just has to tell himself,
nope, this is it, this isn't normal.

Yeah.

That line, until the time comes to sink
down and rest, it reminds me of one

of my favorite lines from movies where
there's some epic scene where it's a

grave danger and it's some variation of.

What do we say to, to the God of death?

Not today.

Yeah.

Not today is the cool.

I love that as a concept because it
both acknowledges the truth and it

acknowledges your ability to impact it.

Your small ability to impact it.

I think it's such a cool line.

Yeah.

It's, I think everyone does.

I think Game of Thrones was the one that
I was thinking of, but yeah, and the

first thing that came to mind for me was
Lord of the Rings, but then I couldn't

place, I'm sure they do that there too.

It's a very, but it's such a, it's
like the right way to if you're, if

you are in a battle, I think that's
the only way to think at that point.

Yes, you can't pretend like you can't die.

It's, the response is not never,
yeah, it's just not, it's not never.

It's and it's, and it's
not, I can't do anything.

It's not, I can't do anything.

And it's, yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

There's something really nice about that.

That is very nice.

And it's very succinct and elegant.

You can't say that concept
any shorter than not today.

Not today.

Yeah.

Maybe let's wrap it up there for
the first episode here in book five.

I think that's a nice
natural ending point.

This was fun.

This first section with waking
up and just like conversation he

has with himself is fantastic.

Yeah.

Marcus on sleep is a new
Marcus for us, so yeah.

I'm gonna order us two, two, two
paintings, but it's nicer here.

I'm going to go ahead and order that.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

Thanks.

You'll put it up, right?

Yeah, for sure, above my bed.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thanks, Paul.

Bye.

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