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Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Raven (00:26)
Hello derangers and welcome back to deranged de jure. We are as usual, your two co -hosts. I am Raven and I'm here with my co -host.
Pisha (00:38)
damn it. Pisha, I'm Pisha. I'm doing it. I waited too long. I was like, she's going to do it. She's going to say, introduce yourself. And I wasn't ready. I'm Pisha though.
Raven (00:39)
That's okay.
But that's okay. It did come very fast. So anyway. Yeah. And we are two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions. And Happy Mother's Day, everyone. Except for Casey fucking Anthony. So anyway. No, I hope she I hope she's having a very sad day. Anyway. Yeah. So we've had a lot.
Pisha (00:51)
Fast and hard!
That bitch doesn't deserve it.
Raven (01:13)
My God, we've had a lot going on this last couple of weeks since we last talked to you. Drake and Kendrick Lamar are apparently starting a war. Yeah. That's been fun to watch. We have a trial against a former president that's been incredible to watch. And as always, we've got a growing number of Palestinian deaths that is just extremely tragic. So.
Pisha (01:21)
Beef of the century. Yeah, beef of the century.
Raven (01:40)
Yeah, so that's all the, you know, let's try and end that on a good note. I don't know. the bear versus man thing. I think we can talk about that one because that's been fun as well. So Pisha, if you were in the woods and you had to run into a man or a bear, which would you choose?
Pisha (01:58)
okay, unequivocally bear, but it's because the bear won't rape me. Like maybe it'll kill me, but it definitely won't rape me. So that's why I say bear.
Raven (02:04)
Yeah.
That's the big thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're all Team Bear here, obviously. I mean, I don't... If anybody is surprised by that, you really have not been listening to us, though. Anyway. No.
Pisha (02:20)
It shouldn't be that shocking. I just feel like my chances against a bear are better. I have learned some survival techniques, both against men and bears. I'm just afraid that, you know, the man might shoot me, do like roofie me, do something way more manipulative or get me into a way more dangerous situation than the bear, which it's like an open threat. You know what it's all about. It's going to try to eat you.
Raven (02:37)
Right?
Right, exactly. Like I think there's a lot more predictability that you have with a bear than you have with a man. So there's that. It has, you know, it's been interesting watching this because the men's meltdowns about it is just really telling. And it's like you're proving our point. You realize that, right? But in any case, yeah. So that's what's been going on the past couple of weeks. And it's actually really insightful for this particular story that we're about to tell you because...
I think if Abby Williams and Libby German had a choice between a man and a bear, they probably would have chosen a bear. And unfortunately, that's not who they came across. So we are going to tell you in this two -parter, the story of the Delphi Murders And I know it's been covered by another podcast. It stopped. So let me backtrack a little bit. I was obsessed with this podcast when it came out. And...
It was wild because it was a cold case for so long. And then, you know, this podcast picked it up and they actually arrested the now defendant in this case a couple of years after the podcast came out. And so there was like this update that came out of nowhere. And then and then it went nowhere. And then, you know, you got no updates. And I kind of like laid it to rest as a very bad criminal defense lawyer.
because the story didn't end there. And actually it's probably where we're gonna pick up after this, but we're gonna tell you the backstory about the Delphi murders and a little bit about where the case has gone since the podcast got off. So with that said, yeah.
Pisha (04:27)
can I just point out for all the people who are paying attention, i .e. our mothers, we are still talking about cults this month. We said and we promised episodes on cults. I just, I'm not going to give any spoilers away, but this two parter on the
Raven (04:33)
You
Good point.
Pisha (04:48)
murders, are definitely, there's a cult aspect to this. We just, we didn't want to be like, yeah, stereotypical, like basic cults, you know, Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, which obviously we'll cover someday, but this is still attached to cults. Just wait and see everyone. That's all I had to say.
Raven (05:00)
Yeah, no.
Yeah, good point. Yeah, I guess that would have been a bad marketing or something, just because we did say we're going to cover... Yeah, that's right. That's right. And we're not trying to lie to you. It's just that we're going to cover one cult and you'll see why later. So instead of two, we're covering one. Anyways, talking about the Delphi murders. So Delphi is a little...
Pisha (05:12)
Misrepresentation!
No.
Raven (05:31)
I guess, area in Indiana. And on February 13th, 2017, two young girls, Abby Williams and Libby German Abby is 13 and Libby is 14 and they're good friends. And they're enjoying a day off of school. And I was trying to, like, I know at some point, I've...
found out like why they were off of school. I don't think it was like President's Day or anything like that, but it might've just been like an in -service day or something like that. Anyway, they had a day off and it was actually like a warm day, unseasonably warm day in Delphi, which is a small, quiet town of about like 3000 residents. And this is in central India. So just like smack dab in the middle of the country. So it's about, I think 135
German, I'm sorry. So Kelsey German, Libby's sister, older sister, drives her and Abby out to the bridge, which is on the Mon, I'm kind of butchered the way that says Monone or Monon, someone from Indiana. Please listen to this and tell us how we mispronounced it. boy.
Pisha (06:42)
Mike Pence, give us a call. Let us know, Mikey boy.
Raven (06:47)
Yes, yeah, I can't wait to hear from him. They were on this this bridge. It was like a bridge where people, younger kids went to go hang out kind of off this main highway and like leading into kind of a wooded area. So anyway, that's where the man versus bear thing comes in. So.
They were dropped off at about 1 .37 and then around 2 .07 PM there's a really strange Snapchat that comes from Libby German's phone. And it's a video and it's a video of a man who is apparently following them on the bridge. It's a short, like grainy video. You can't really see a whole lot.
But what you do see, and we are almost to the point where we're gonna have a website so I can show the photo which is on our PowerPoint. But this man is heavier set, he looks a little younger, he's got a full set of hair, all of this is gonna become relevant later. But that's the video that they capture. And then there's another video that comes after that.
that isn't released until later, but they do release it, part of it shortly after. And what the audio is on that is a very deep masculine voice that says, down the hill. And that again comes in at 2 .07. They were supposed to be picked up at about 3 .15 by Libby German's dad. They never showed up.
And so at around 5 .30 PM, he reports them missing. So the case eventually went cold and then it was covered by Down the Hill. So they, on February 15th, I believe it was of 2017, their bodies are discovered about, I think it was about a half, hmm.
I'm trying to remember exactly how far it was from the bridge, but it was a distance from the bridge, at least half a mile to a mile and half away from the bridge. So, and across from the river. And that, again, it'll be important later. So, and we'll cover it more in depth later as well. Their bodies are found a couple of days later and they were determined to have been murdered. And yeah, so the case, they start the case, but they have no leads.
on this case other than the Snapchat video from Libby German's phone. So anyway,
Pisha, did you listen to this podcast? Do you know about it at all?
Pisha (09:29)
So I remember you talking about it, but I don't think I ever listened to it because I don't remember all of the details of all of this stuff. Like I find it shocking that you find the bodies and you don't have any leads. Like was there what there were there no there's no forensic evidence at all. What was the condition of their bodies? Do we know anything that could like get us on leads and show that they followed leads?
Raven (09:41)
Yeah.
Pisha (09:57)
before it went cold?
Raven (09:58)
Well, yeah, I mean, actually there were there were a lot of like so -called leads. And so they talk about this throughout the podcast, but they didn't release. Well, maybe you can for next time because. Yeah, well, I can tell you all about it, but that's yeah, I'll try from memory. It's been a few years since I've listened to it, but it is really good. I do encourage people to go listen to it is it's a.
Pisha (10:08)
I wish I'd listened to it. Like that would have been helpful. I'm going to have to listen to it now for the part two. Okay, perfect.
Raven (10:26)
really good podcast. But so there was very few details that were released about the condition of the body and how the girls were actually killed for a very, very, very long time. And in fact, not until I think our two parter comes up, did we actually learn about exactly how these two girls died. All we knew was that their bodies were located in the woods.
And there's a lot more details that we're missing from that that are very, very important about the conditions and the way that they were killed. So they had the audio of the suspect and they had a video of him. And so it's also incredible that they had this, you know, strong evidence against someone that they were still not able to find.
suspect in the years that followed. They did have one suspect who was named in 2019, but he died by suicide the next day before they went to go and arrest him, which I find pretty suspicious. There wasn't a whole lot about that. Yeah, right? I mean, if you have a reason to die by suicide, it might be that you're about to be charged with murder. Just saying. Something I'm somewhat familiar with. So in any case,
Pisha (11:29)
Yeah, hang on. Maybe it was him?
Good reason.
Raven (11:45)
Yeah, and then on April 22nd of 2019, law enforcement announced that they were going to take this investigation in a new direction, and they released a new composite sketch, which looked nothing like the first one. And they released the full audio of that video from Libby German's phone, which just added the word guys. So now we have a full photo of this guy on the bridge and then also
audio that says guys down the hill. And I thought about playing this, but I don't, I'm not technically, technologically capable. Yeah, well, maybe we can figure it out. Like I may pass that buck on to you. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, if not, you can just go listen to it online because it's all over the place. And it's very like nondescript and it's not.
Pisha (12:21)
I would have to do clip surgery as I call it.
Maybe insert here. Mark here.
Raven (12:41)
It's not threatening. There's nothing like super compelling about the way that this man is saying guys down the hill. But he does. It's very creepy because it is kind of nonchalant in its demeanor. But there's just not a whole lot there. So anyway, the sheriff, I think at that time was
I can't remember if that was when he was going for his campaign for election, for reelection or whatever. But this is a very politically motivated case. And so he comes out, does this very strong press conference and the public thinks that it's going to get solved now because one of the things he says is like, we've probably interviewed you before. You've...
definitely been to these press conferences, you probably you're listening, you may be listening right now and we're gonna find you and and then they don't. So anyway the...
Pisha (13:47)
So psych, it's like they made it sound like they knew exactly who was doing this. And then they're like, just kidding. We have no idea. We were hoping you would show yourself after that.
Raven (13:53)
Just kidding. Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, wouldn't you just like come forward and confess, okay, guys, you got me, but didn't quite do that though. So, but on October 29th, I think of 2022, law enforcement then announced that they had actually arrested someone. There hadn't been any leads in this case for years, really.
Pisha (14:04)
It was me. It was me. You're right. You got me.
Raven (14:20)
and they arrested a man named Richard Allen. And that's not somebody who was ever on the suspect list. So all of a sudden they've got this guy, Richard Allen. And the podcast had ended in February of 2021, and then they actually had an update. Don't remember when the update was, but it was like after the arrest, they said, they've got this guy.
And it sounded very promising because the evidence that they had against this guy, it sounded like they had physical evidence at that time. So I think that as bad internet sleuths, we all kind of just like forgot about it. But it's interesting because if you look at the picture that is the man on the bridge that's taken from Libby German's phone,
And for Pisha, I'm looking at slide four.
Pisha (15:14)
Okay, and so on slide four, we're looking at the obvious far right picture. And is this, this is from the Snapchat.
Raven (15:17)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
That's from the Snapchat. So that's from Libby German's phone. This is what they have. And you really, it's so grainy and so nondescript, like you really cannot tell what this guy looked like. Obviously he's wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans, right? The navy jacket and something brown underneath, I guess. But...
Pisha (15:24)
Okay.
And it looks like some type of hat. Like I kind of feel like the hat in the one composite sketch on the left is kind of close, like the paper boy kind of hat.
Raven (15:44)
Mm -hmm.
Right. Yeah, and that's the first composite. And so what's interesting is that's their first one. And I don't know how they came up with him having a little goatee that he has. Yeah, I think that may have been from like, it had to have been from a witness, one of the witnesses who said that he was there. Mm -hmm.
Pisha (16:00)
Double.
That's what I was going to ask because they couldn't have possibly gotten that from looking at this video or this image here. So it must have been a witness statement. So this composite likely was separate. It does kind of look like the video. Okay, but tell me about, yeah, but what's up with this middle? Yeah, what? Who did this?
Raven (16:12)
No, no, definitely not.
Right.
Mm -hmm. To some degree. And then the second one.
Listen, if anyone thinks that composite sketching is an exact science, this is your proof here that it is not, because this is the composite sketch that came out about, like when I said, I think it was April of 2020, no, April of 2019.
Pisha (16:32)
We
So this was like a fresh composite still. So, I mean, it was still... two years, two years, just kidding. Okay, sorry.
Raven (16:53)
No, no, no, this is two years later. This is, yeah, yeah. So this is like after the fact. And so they changed the way that this man looked. Because obviously the two don't look anything alike, like not at all. And so, but that was the new one that they released to the public. He obviously looks like much, much younger and doesn't have the goatee. And so like these two people are not the same person at all.
Pisha (17:05)
Nothing.
Raven (17:20)
like could not possibly be the same people. So it's wild to me. Like that's just, yeah. So.
Pisha (17:26)
And we don't have any information on the source of the composites. Like...
Raven (17:33)
Yeah, we do. So there, like I said, there's there were two witnesses and so they had the first person like who did the sketches come in and take the I think, actually, I don't know. I need to look that up. We can talk, we can come back to that. But
Pisha (17:50)
No, that's fine. I'm just wondering like why the drastic change? Like, because these guys don't look the same at all. And even if you are basing it on witness statements, were the witness statements just that they saw this dude hanging out in this location around the time? Or was this guy doing something actually incriminating? Like, you know what I mean? This could just be some random guy who is like, I'm on a stroll with my Chowinnie mix.
Raven (17:55)
Mm -hmm.
Not in the least.
Yeah!
haha
Pisha (18:20)
Pablo and you know, ooh Yeah
Raven (18:22)
I hope he had Pablo. Yeah. No, I think from what I remember, the first witness who recognized our defendant now, Richard Allen, said that they saw him in about, I think it was probably around like 130 or so on the bridge. And then the next person that saw him was around four o 'clock. And that was the one who said that they saw him in muddy and bloody clothes. And it was
get into that. It wasn't actually Money and Bloody, but in any case, they're talking about seeing Richard Allen. Richard Allen, you can't see this again, I'm sorry, but if you look at pictures of him, he is bald and he's never had hair. I mean, I'm sure he did, that's not true. He's certainly had hair before, but he hasn't had, he did not, he's not had hair for a long time. Like he's, he's shaved his head.
mostly bald for a good majority of his adulthood. And he's had that long beard that you see on slide five, Fisha, for a very long time. So this is someone who has been named a suspect who, I don't know. I mean, like looking back at that bridge picture, I just don't know how you get there. I really don't.
Pisha (19:23)
Yeah.
I mean, I guess he kind of looks like the first composite if you shorten the beard and you put a paperboy hat on him. But but like, how fast does his beard hair grow? Like, maybe.
Raven (19:45)
Sure.
Yeah, maybe.
I don't know. Maybe that'll be in the case. We'll see.
Pisha (19:57)
That's his alibi. Maybe his alibi was, that couldn't have possibly been me because my beard growth is five millimeters per day, you know? And I don't know, whatever. But no, point is no one remembers seeing him with no beard is what you're telling me. Yeah.
Raven (20:09)
Yeah, very well could be. I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, he's had a beard for a long time and he's always had his hair cut short. So definitely not the second one that we were talking about, which is curly hair. There's just no way. So anyway, can you tell us a little bit about Richard Allen Peesha? Who's that guy?
Pisha (20:24)
I know. Yeah.
No.
Well, he was a married CVS worker. He was described as polite and quiet. And there was very little that was disclosed about him at first. And I don't know if that was because the cops were very aware that he does not really match those sketches or what. I don't know. But the probable cause affidavit stated that one of the girls mentions a gun.
Raven (20:57)
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (21:05)
and an unspent round of ammunition of a 40 caliber gun allegedly belonging to Richard Allen was found two feet away from Libby's body. I okay.
Raven (21:16)
Okay, so that's the physical evidence in the case.
Pisha (21:19)
Right, the physical evidence is that he owns a 40 caliber gun and they found an unspent 40 caliber round, possibly near one of the bodies. But do we even know if the gun was used to kill them? I think you and I are gonna talk about that more, right?
Raven (21:24)
Mm -hmm.
No, yeah, we will talk about that later, but the answer is no, these girls were not shot. So.
Pisha (21:43)
Yeah. And here's, so here's the other thing about ballistic testing. You and I have actually discussed this before I came to you because I was like, wait a second, some defense attorney called ballistics junk science. And you, your response was like, well, it kind of is. And it blew my freaking mind because I was like, what? I had thought it was like a pretty accepted form of scientific.
Raven (21:58)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Pisha (22:10)
method. And so what I've discovered is that at least with the firing of the rounds, the theory is of ballistics is that each gun has almost a fingerprint of rifling that is left behind on the bullet casing on a spent round. How would you use ballistics on an unspent
Raven (22:18)
Mm -hmm.
And unspent round.
Pisha (22:37)
Yeah, so basically the only connection is it's the same caliber gun that he owns. And like, do we know if he was carrying the gun that day even or was it locked at home?
Raven (22:48)
I don't even think... Yeah, I don't really think that we have that answer because, you know, neither of the witnesses say that he was carrying a weapon, like a gun or anything like that. So I don't know. It's really weird.
Pisha (23:03)
Right, but the point remains, it's way too attenuated to link an unspent round using an already shaky kind of science and linking it to a specific gun. That's wild. Like, that's just not possible. So...
Raven (23:08)
Mm -hmm.
Right, right. No.
Pisha (23:20)
Yeah, I that's what I've learned about it. Do you have anything to add about it? Because you had some really insightful things when we were talking about it the first time, and it's totally changed my perspective.
Raven (23:32)
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that there's certain things that you can tell about guns. There's certain forensic evidence that isn't quote unquote like junk science, but like, there's, you know, whether or not someone has like, like, so residue or anything like that, like left on their hand, you can tell those kinds of things. But, but yeah, other than that, it's just not, it's not a hard and fast.
science.
this one was wild to me because like, I remember they said that there was physical evidence at the crime scene. And I just don't know how they can say that this was definitively like his gun.
Pisha (24:12)
Yeah, it's I don't get it either. I really don't get it. That was the only physical evidence that I mean, they've even brought up today, right? Besides the videos which don't necessarily link him directly. And then we've got the fact that Richard Allen did admit to being at the bridge on the day and around the time of the murders of the girls. He also admitted to be wearing
Raven (24:21)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Pisha (24:41)
a blue or black jacket and jeans with what is worn by the man in the Snapchat video. So I just, but we don't even know that Snapchat man did anything wrong. Like you said before, he wasn't doing anything particularly criminal or like...
Raven (24:49)
Right.
LIT!
No, I just following them on the bridge, which like, you know, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, pointing out again that this was a day that like at least the kids had off of school, there were a lot of people at the bridge. It's not like this was like, you know, an isolated, like they were, you know, it was just these two girls and this guy on the bridge. So which I mean, getting into it later is going to be wild as to how.
Pisha (25:03)
It's scary, but you know.
Raven (25:27)
this happened, which, you know, I don't, I can't say I know how it happened, but after reading all that I've read, I am convinced in my own head that, that this is what happens. So.
Pisha (25:40)
Well, and you're reading like pleadings. You're getting it straight from the horse's mouth. You know, you're not reading tabloids. You're not doing your research on Wikipedia, which I don't want to talk shit about because that's likely how we do a lot of our research. But, but right, right. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is like, you're going straight to the source. So it's not like you're getting this information from a third party. It is like, these are the pleadings, the filings in the case. So.
Raven (25:43)
Mm -hmm. Right.
I do a lot of my research. It's a good starting point.
Mm -hmm.
Right, right.
Pisha (26:08)
This is the actual court record, the facts, the evidence being presented.
Raven (26:14)
Yeah, yeah, I should this I guess this is probably a good time to like pause and and say like how I came across this as well. So I'd kind of like I'd forgotten about the Delphi murders, like I said, I just kind of went away. And then I actually had a friend who texted me and was like, I just read this absolutely insane motion. And he sent it to me. And like, I wasn't really thinking anything of it. But like, then I got like to
page two or whatever and they're talking about Colts and I was like what the actual fuck. So yeah, I sent it to like everyone to read 126 pages please. Yeah, of course you can. So anyway.
Pisha (26:46)
I know you sent it to me too. You're like do you have some spare time for reading? I was like, yeah, totally. I'll just squeeze it right in Yeah, yeah, no, I'm I'm super excited to talk about it more because as of right now Richard Allen has been arrested. He was taken to Westfield Correctional Facility, which is a prison
Raven (27:05)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Pisha (27:16)
and he's being held there until his pending trial. So that's what's going on.
Raven (27:21)
Mm -hmm. And right, and Westville is not like, people who are detained are put in jail. They're not put in prison. So he should not have been taken to this facility. And it gets even more wild as to what happens to him while he's there. And we'll get into that a little bit later. But he definitely should not have been there and was.
Pisha (27:33)
Got it.
Raven (27:47)
actually transferred out of there. I can't remember when that was, but yeah. So, I could have just said what I said. I've just jumped ahead a little bit. Anyway, doesn't matter. Yeah, it's fine. I first saw what I was gonna get into anyway. So, anyway. So Richard Allen is,
Pisha (27:57)
Keep it there. Keep it there.
Raven (28:08)
in jail and he has a public defender and he files a motion on his own accord, which as you know, people should know it's called pro se. And he's trying to get additional defense counsel to try and help him because his case is a whole lot more complicated than I think that the public defenders could handle. The judge actually grants his motion. And so in a lot of states, they have like contract public defenders who are people who,
like, well, I have a contract. So, you know, it's someone who is a private defense lawyer, but then like can contract with the government state or federal and, and get state or federal public defense cases. So you can end up with a private, if you're sorry, I hate to say this, I will never talk shit about like public defenders because they do God's work, but like,
But they're just overworked and that's the truth of the matter. And so like it is helpful to have a private defense lawyer who's able to come in and for whatever reason, Richard Allen just won the lottery. Like when he filed this motion and got the lawyers that he got, he got Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rossi, who at this point in my career are heroes to me.
after reading this motion because it was not the most like legally sound motion that I've ever read, but the facts are incredible. This like investigation was absolutely bonkers and it's almost like airtight to some degree. I really, I give them props and actually reached out to them and they told me that there's a gag order and they can't talk to me. So.
Pisha (29:51)
They were like, nope.
Raven (29:52)
So, sorry. And I was like, cool. But I was like, maybe after the trial. So trial is actually going to be coming up in October. I think it is actually going to go to trial. I am so excited to see what happens. So I've been keeping close tabs on it. So anyways, so Rossi and Andrew Baldwin come in and they quickly attack the case against Alan.
the chief agent in the state is a guy named Sheriff Leeson B. He's the one who was running for office. And he had testified in a deposition that he was certain that more than one person had to have committed the crime. So we're talking about Richard Allen being one person. He's not charged with conspiracy. But I mean, but I think a big part of the reason that he's saying that is that this crime just.
could not, like the way that it was done could not have been committed by one person. One person could not have done all of this. So we're going to take a little bit of a segue here, I think, and talk a little bit about occult, which we promised you we would. So here it is.
Pisha (30:59)
That's right. We're going to talk a little bit about Odinism, which is a pre -Christian pagan polytheistic religion involving the worship of Norse and Germanic gods, much like the Vikings, who were known to be super morally correct people. Yes. But anyways, they believe nature is the true manifestation of the divine and that man is inherently good.
Raven (31:15)
Cool.
Pisha (31:25)
But then the 1970s happened. It happened. you did put it in here. Okay, sorry. Take that out. I found it in the goddamn slide.
Raven (31:30)
He happened! I did. That's okay.
Well, that's okay, because I could have looked there too and I didn't, but it's fine. Yeah.
Pisha (31:43)
It's fine. So just so everyone knows, most of my learning on Odinism was done during a Christian prayer today that I was forced to take part in. So I just want everyone to appreciate that irony.
Raven (32:00)
You got so much religious education today. I'm very proud of you.
Pisha (32:05)
Thank you. I am evolving as a human being spiritually, if you will. But yeah, anyways, so Odinism, there's a bunch of different sex, sex, factions and groups. And one of them is the Odinic, Odinic Right. Mm -hmm. -huh. -huh. They are a reconstructionist religious organization.
Raven (32:17)
Hehehe
You
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Pisha (32:33)
named after the Nordic god, Odin. Go figure. Yeah, yeah. But the problem is that all sounds well and good until you get to the part where it's like, also, we're white supremacists and we limit our membership to white people. Everything. my God. But it sounds like they let in women, which I guess that's kind of nice. But it's limited to not only white people, but...
Raven (32:37)
That makes sense, yeah.
Yeah.
They have to ruin everything, don't they? Yeah. Mm -hmm.
I guess so.
Pisha (33:02)
It believes that the heathenry quote unquote is an ancestral religion of the Indo European face. So like face race. my God. Word. So, so, so yeah, there's it in the seventies and whatnot. It kind of blended less into hippie dippy nature stuff and more into white supremacy. White.
Raven (33:13)
good.
You
Pisha (33:29)
Germanic Nordic people are the true chosen people and bullshit. You know, we've talked about it at length over the podcasts, but it was founded by John Gibbs Bailey. What's that word? What's that?
Raven (33:33)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
It's like his name in the... Yes, it is his maiden name. I think it's his name in the Odinic Rite, I think. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. His club name.
Pisha (33:48)
His maiden name?
Okay, his maiden name is Haas -
Okay, so it's like his club name. Okay, so Haas -Squled. Haas -Squled! And then it was co -founded by John Yowell Stubba? His name was Stubba? my god, okay.
Raven (34:04)
Yeah.
It's very menacing sounding really if you think about it.
Pisha (34:19)
As you guys can tell, I read this slide very closely before reading it to all of you. But anyways, Stubba and Hoskald got together in England and one of them, Stubba, was a member of the British Union of Fascists in his youth. Again, go figure, this is where it's all coming together. And Odinic Wright is described as a
Raven (34:22)
You
I'm sorry.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (34:43)
group, kind of like say the dead south, but in a bad way.
Raven (34:44)
Hehehe
Dead South is a band, so I was trying to think of a good folk band, but not that. Anyway, yeah. It's okay. Mm -hmm. Yep.
Pisha (34:55)
okay. Okay. All right. I was like, I didn't get this reference, but okay. So the Dead South is a folk band. Okay. So they perverted the North mythology, like I said, into a religion that believes racial mixing is bad and whatnot. The Norse mythology,
Raven (35:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pisha (35:16)
has been used by white supremacist gangs in prisons in order to communicate and signal their affiliation to other white supremacists. Yeah, I just, I always thought of Nazis and SS symbols, but I guess Vikings too. That makes sense. They were very rapey people.
Raven (35:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean it does and I actually have a little bit of personal experience with this from my very first trial that I ever sat through. So we had a case that was a guy who brought a religious discrimination case against the state of New Mexico, Department of Corruption, because in New Mexico the Native Americans have sweat lodges.
that they've put into the prisons so that the inmates can continue practicing their religion. And it should be said that religious practice is a constitutional right, even for people who are in prison. So, I mean, they should allow anyone who is practicing that religion to exercise it, which means that anybody who believes in sweat lodges should be able to go. But...
Department of Corrections was like, no, only Native Americans are allowed to go to these sweat lodges. And that was a problem. So there was a guy who, he brought suit against Department of Corrections saying that he was from the ancient Aztec indigenous peoples and that he also practiced in that, I think it was Anahuac.
Aniwaka is the religion, I think, or maybe it's the culture. Anyway, the practice, right. And so he actually spoke Nahuatl, which is the language that they speak down there. And so he was very well -educated about everything regarding that religion.
Pisha (36:55)
practice or whatever. Yeah.
Raven (37:10)
and he had a giant tattoo of an Aztec calendar on his back. And so anyway, he's telling them that he should be allowed into these sweat lodges. The problem is that the sweat lodges are the least secure areas in the prison. That's problem one. Problem two, and we're going to, I know I'm taking like a lot of like different swings here. I promise you it'll go somewhere. But.
The other problem is that the ancient Aztec and Nahuatl, analog -like cultural symbols and language and all of that are heavily utilized by the Serenius gang in prison. And so...
Pisha (37:52)
I was gonna say it sounds like a Mexican cartel may have hijacked some of those symbols.
Raven (37:56)
Mm -hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And they did. And so that's the point, is that each racial group kind of has their own gang in prisons. And so the Serenios and a lot of Mexican mafia subgroups, I guess, that's not what they're called, but they use a lot of that. And they're very, very sophisticated. Anybody who thinks that, you know,
criminal defendants are stupid, just needs to like take two seconds to go into one of these prisons to hear what they do. So anyway, because they've learned these ancient languages that nobody else speaks, so these, you know, prison guards don't speak them or anything like that. And so, yeah, we lost that trial. I should note
that was my first trial against our law school professors. So it was against, it was against George Fox.
Pisha (38:53)
yeah, you're losing, sorry.
Raven (38:53)
Yeah, no way. We had a lot of bad facts. I mean, like, we should have lost that trial and we did lose that trial. So anyway, yeah.
Pisha (39:04)
I have a question though. What if there was an argument made about establishment, establishment clause under the establishment clause that it was an improper establishment by the government for the native religions, but hey, are you not going to create like a temple for this or that or other religious? I don't know. You know what I mean? Like not allowing whites to practice. You know, I don't know. It seems like it almost an establishment issue as well.
Raven (39:30)
Well, yeah, I think you're onto something there because obviously they have like different like religious texts that are in the, there's like, there's churches and you know, all those kinds of things. And so you're right, but it's also, you know, racially discriminatory. And I think that's ultimately like what it came down to is that saying that only Native Americans are allowed to go to this where other religions actually do practice.
in these sweat lodges, that was a problem. So, yeah, so like I said, so we lost and we should have lost, but there
Pisha (40:01)
Interesting.
Raven (40:04)
of interesting facts in that case. I won't go into all of them, but I think we had this expert, this is where I was learning all of this from, who's a gang expert who knew everything and I still have a book by him, that
he knew everything about the Serenius gang and it was just fascinating. So anyway, so swinging back to the Odinic, right, and Odinus in general. So in prisons, they, everyone's basically a part of a gang. Like it's much more prevalent than like it's made out to be and they're, right.
Pisha (40:39)
You have to survive. Like in order to survive, you have to separate usually by race into one of these groups to have protection.
Raven (40:45)
Mm -hmm.
Right, that's right. And they do actually do a lot of separating by race for that reason as well. Like the prisoners, or sorry, the prison guards themselves do that. And so the Aryan Brotherhood is a big prison gang. I should also say that gangs started in prisons, which I think people think that gangs start on the streets or whatever. They actually started in prison. Like that's how you get into...
a gang is by going to prison. So, you know, for anyone wondering why there's a revolving door in the prison system, that's why. That's why. Like you create these monsters when you put them in prison. So it is on the people. So that's my two cents for the day about why we should get rid of prisons in America. Anyway.
Pisha (41:31)
Love it.
Well, you need to watch Unlocked, the jail experiment on Netflix. I am of course not advocating or condoning anything or the views and images of, whatever. I don't know what disclaimer I need to give for that. But the point is, my God, you gotta watch it because they totally bring up the fact that if you're creating communities that are isolationist and separatist based on race,
Raven (41:47)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Pisha (42:01)
And then you expect these folks to leave the prison gates and just be normal members of society where everyone else is an equal. It's just not realistic. And this show examines how the conditions of the prisoners and how them engaging with each other and these community, they can't build community amongst each other other than through race.
Raven (42:11)
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (42:23)
and through these gangs. So watch this because I think it's a very interesting possible solution, at least for some of the more petty offenders, in not making it so much of a revolving door and making it more of a community of people whose goal is to get out of prison and be productive members of society.
Raven (42:25)
Right.
Right, yeah. Yeah, and I have started it. I will say it's very hard for me to watch just because of what I do for a living. And so I'll probably come back to it when I'm emotionally prepared.
Pisha (42:57)
I completely understand. Like I said when I recommended to you, it's something that you deal with on the daily and it's gotta be depressing as shit. Like it was depressing watching for me and I binged it in two days. So this is your life.
Raven (42:59)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it truly is. And it's my life, but I'm also not behind bars. So I'm thankful for that every day. So, but anyway, I mean, this is cool and all, Pesia, but weren't we talking about the Delphi murders? We went on a little tangent, so.
Pisha (43:27)
We were, yes.
I think. Yeah, yeah, we totally were. And I guess we're gonna get there. But I feel like there's an important fact here. And that's that Sheriff Leezenby, great name, Leezenby. If I were if I were running against him, I'd be like, Leezenby, he's a sleazenby. I don't know.
Raven (43:45)
Yeah, reason be.
I was gonna say Lays and B.
Pisha (43:57)
That's a good one, too. But remember how you said that this murder had to involve more than one person? Like, at least two. Here's why. The murders occurred half a mile from the bridge, across Deer Creek. Do we know how big Deer Creek is? Is it a pretty deep river? Is it pretty... Okay.
Raven (43:58)
Yeah.
yeah.
It is actually, yeah, like it's at least waist height. So for someone who is, and this will become relevant later, someone who's like about five, four or around that height, it's gonna be really hard to drag two teenage girls across that creek.
Pisha (44:22)
Okay.
Got it. Okay, so they would have had to, the murderer would have had to have somehow dragged these two girls across or convinced them somehow to go across the creek through pretty treacherous train and do this by himself. That seems pretty outlandish. And then the details of the murders,
Raven (44:43)
Mm -hmm.
somehow right.
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (44:59)
we're not released to the public. It may be for very good reason. We don't want to taint jury pools. We don't want sensationalism to ruin any possible evidence that's there, if that makes sense. But they involve very specific and gruesome details that mimic a pagan or Norse mythology sacrificial rite.
Raven (45:03)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Pisha (45:26)
And when I say right, I'm not talking about like one of the ones you get in an amendment, like in a constitution, this is like a specific, like a religious practice ritual. So yeah. And so there is a prevalent group of Odinists in the Delphi. Delphi? Why can't I say that word? Okay. Okay. There is a prevalent, thank you.
Raven (45:33)
Yeah, right.
Right.
Yeah. That's, you got it. Well done.
Pisha (45:54)
There is a prevalent group of Odinists in the Delphi area in Indiana who are all very suspicious AF. And it sounds like we're gonna get into that next time. I'm looking forward. I'm ready for these sus mother truckas.
Raven (46:02)
Mm -hmm. Suss.
Yeah, that's right. That is correct. Yeah. So, yeah, so this is, I think this is where we're going to pick up next time. But there are eight things that we need you to know that are in this motion. So what we're going to pick up with is the fact that these, this group of lawyers did a very thorough investigation of this case. And the,
Police departments that were involved, law enforcement that was involved in this case, actually had a lot of information about these Odinist people who were doing very suspicious things and it also involved a confession. So that they completely just disregarded. So yeah, it's wild. So what the defense did was something that's strategically
interesting because a lot of the times you're not going to give your defense strategy until trial, right? Like, so you don't, you're going to like hold back a little bit. You're not going to talk about like your theory of the case, but in this case they laid it out in 126 pages that attacks the search for an affidavit in this case. So in federal cases, and I actually have not seen this in state cases, but you can attack a search for an affidavit, which is the
affidavit that is attached to the application for a search warrant that goes to a judge that lays out the reasons why someone is seeking a search warrant. It has to give out enough facts that you're gonna get probable cause for, right? You can't lie in that, just so you know. You can't omit really important information from that as well. And that's like, it's heavily litigated as to what actually amounts to...
important information that should be in a search warrant and should not be. But in this case, this is a state case, this is an Indiana case, they filed what's called a Frank's motion, which is that motion that attacks that search warrant affidavit saying that the affiant, I never know how to say that word, I think it's affiant or some people say affiant, affiant, okay, yeah.
Pisha (48:10)
I say affiant.
Raven (48:14)
However you choose to say it. They attacked the person who wrote the search warrant affidavit saying that they omitted facts or they misrepresented facts that should have been before the judge. So they filed this hundred, sorry, I keep saying 126, 136 pages. So 136 page filing.
that's mostly fact -based and they actually do attach a whole lot of exhibits that were not made public. But they've done thorough research on this and it is unlike any other emotion I've ever seen in the however many years I've been doing this, like five at least on the criminal side and then three on civil side. But it lays out eight things that you should know. So,
One of the, we'll just take them in order. Number one, members of a pagan Norse religion called Odinism, which was hijacked by white nationalists, which is what we just talked about, ritualistically sacrificed Abigail Williams and Liberty German. And that's a pretty big statement. That's where they had me, was like, what? Excuse me, what? Yeah, yeah.
Pisha (49:23)
Yeah, hooked. My interest is peak, sir. Continue.
Raven (49:27)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Okay. So they were sacrificed? Like, yeah. So anyway, number two, a Purdue professor on odonism was supposedly consulted by Delphi investigators early on, but that expert, like, generally speaking, experts will generate a report if you ask for them to. On the defense side, on the state side, I don't know why you wouldn't have them generate a report. Like, there's not a reason for them not to generate. But even...
Pisha (49:53)
Unless it's bad for you? Yeah, in which case then you're not doing your duty because you have to provide exculpatory evidence to the defense.
Raven (49:58)
Exactly.
You're onto something, Keisha. So anyway, that was not generated.
Pisha (50:04)
And I don't even do criminals.
Raven (50:07)
I know, I'm so proud of you. You did so good. Number three, a letter was drafted by Rushville Assistant Police Chief, sorry, Todd Click, which stated that the evidence against Richard Allen was far less compelling than the information by officers Murphy, Ferency and Click, which outlined the Odinite angle and ignored by, which was ignored by the prosecution of Allen.
Pisha (50:09)
Eee, I'm doing it!
Raven (50:35)
which also was not disclosed to defense, which is a Brady violation. So, mm -hmm. Yeah, you have to disclose. Yeah, exactly. It's rule number one. It's like Brady. So, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, and defense does a really good job in this of really kind of complimenting.
Pisha (50:41)
I was just gonna say that. That's just what I said. That's what, that was it.
Yeah! Wow!
Raven (51:00)
Murphy, Ferencine, Click, they want them on their side. They like slander Lee's and B, Lee's and B, however you say his name, and a lot of the other officers in this case. So, mm -hmm.
Pisha (51:11)
really, really fascinating to see a defense working with the investigating police officers as opposed to using them as hostile witnesses. That's like, that's really interesting. So.
Raven (51:22)
Right!
It's strategic and a lot of times you do want that because like you want for those witnesses to be on your side because if they're already leaning against like prosecuting this person, then you want to like lean on those people as hard as you can. So.
Pisha (51:39)
and their credibility in front of a jury.
Raven (51:42)
Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. So number four, this letter and all of the information about the Odenite angle was omitted from the Serge Warren affidavit leading to Richard Allen's arrest, which is the basis for the Frank's motion. So yeah, like I said, if you omit certain things, especially if they're relevant to whether or not there's probable cause,
then that's the basis for, that's when you can file a Frank's motion saying the search warrant affidavit is bullshit. It's a legal term. And so you should just get rid of the case, basically. So yeah, so it's a way of suppressing the evidence in the case. Like you suppress everything that came as a result of that search warrant. So anyway, I think I left off on four. Pisha, do you wanna pick up with five?
Pisha (52:15)
Yeah.
will pick up with five. Five is my favorite number and number five thing you need to know. Richard Allen has zero connections to any pagan cult or cultists and there is zero forensic evidence linking, linking Allen to the girls or the crime scene. Besides that bullshit we talked about about owning the same caliber weapon as an unspent round found somewhere nearby. Yeah.
Raven (52:34)
Okay.
Yeah, and 40 caliber, yeah, it's like a very common, yeah, anyway.
Pisha (53:00)
Yeah, I mean, it's one of the most common forms of gum. So I mean, caliber. So anyways, number six, the evidence presented in the Frank's motion was scattered throughout the prosecutor's discovery, but wasn't pieced together until they did their investigation. So why is that relevant?
Raven (53:04)
Great.
That's relevant because it means that the prosecution was not piecing it together for themselves. So like the defense had to come in and like prosecution was ignoring all of this like.
Pisha (53:28)
Got it.
All of this evidence that they had given to them in discovery and they've been able to put it together and they're like, hey, what the heck? This is your job, state. Why didn't you put this together? Okay, that makes sense.
Raven (53:37)
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Exactly, right. And like, and one of the other things like that I hate that state actors will do sometimes is that they'll like, they'll just throw a bunch of discovery at you and not organize it in any coherent fashion. They're just like, here you go. Here's this, we've done our job. And it's like, no, I, how am I supposed to like make any sense of this whatsoever? Anyway, so that's why that's real. That's why point six is, is relevant.
Pisha (54:01)
and they overwhelm you.
Exactly.
That makes sense. No, absolutely. Because if they're papering them to death and trying to hide the evidence in mountains of discovery of irrelevant stuff, you know, like this is a common tactic with civil suits. Yeah, civil suits against big corporation. Big corporation will be like, we will show you every receipt since the dawn of time. And here you go. And you're like, that's not what I want.
Raven (54:14)
Mm -hmm.
Simple.
Here you go. In alphabetical order. In, you know, no order whatsoever. Yeah. Exactly.
Pisha (54:38)
Yeah, in no order, in no order, in no order whatsoever. And in fact, I'm going to have my grocery list thrown in there too from 1956. Like it's just, yeah. So this is a tactic to hide evidence when you throw mountains of discovery at a defendant. So, okay, I get now that I've talked myself through it, that makes perfect sense why six is relevant.
Raven (54:51)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (55:01)
Number seven, I like how you put in parentheses, okay, here's where shit gets wild, as if none of this has been wild so far. So, okay, the wild shit you need to know, derangers, is that members of Odinist are employed as corrections officers for the Indiana Department of Corrections at Westville Correctional Facility where Ellen was staying.
Raven (55:04)
Hahaha!
No, no.
Yes! Yes! Isn't that fucking wild? Because... Okay, so let's pause here. We're going to go into this in detail next time. But you need to know that Richard Allen was being harassed and abused by these corrections officers while he was at that facility. They were threatening his family. They weren't letting him have his legal calls. And when they did,
Pisha (55:33)
I - okay.
Okay.
Raven (55:58)
they, when the, his lawyers came in, they came in and they recorded it, which is so illegal, so fucking illegal. And, my God, yeah, yeah, that. And so how do I know that they're odinous or how do we know that they're odinous now that like the defense has like brought all of this up? They were wearing patches. So remember when I talked about like, you can't in prisons,
Pisha (56:07)
my god!
Raven (56:24)
If you ever go and visit a prison, I said everybody's part of a gang. So like, you can't wear different colors if you go and visit a prison. Like you have to wear certain colors. You can't wear anything of any kind of insignia because it might signify to a gang that you're a part of it or, you know, all of those things. It's all for security. Some of it's bullshit, some of it's not. But what's definitely not is that you cannot be wearing
anything that is like is gang symbols which those are and the fucking corrections officers were wearing them those patches
Pisha (56:59)
just openly wearing them. And why would you have an interest in harassing this specific inmate unless they were taking the fall for you? So very, very good to know. My mind is just reeling, putting all of this together. So it really is. So the eighth thing that you all need to know before the next episode.
Raven (57:08)
Mm -hmm.
It's wild.
Mm -hmm.
Pisha (57:24)
is that the unified command involved Carroll County officers, Tony Legit, Kevin Hammond, state police officers, Jerry Holman, Jay Harper, and Dave Vito, and FBI agent Rich Davies.
Raven (57:46)
Yeah.
Pisha (57:46)
Honestly, this was a bit of a letdown as a cliffhanger and on seven we'll get to why next time.
Raven (57:53)
Maybe you should have read this one before, but you know who the actors are. So yes, so number seven is like, is the most important thing about the corrections officers. But now you know who the unified command is, which is also important. Yeah.
Pisha (57:55)
yeah, okay.
Just... I think we should keep it in that order though, it's just kind of funny. But, but yes, Seven is way more interesting of a nooo, come back and visit us!
Raven (58:14)
Here's the thing, as a writer I was a little bit disappointed in the way that this was ordered. I was like, start with Unified Command, end with the Corrections Officers, get it done right. Anyway, yeah.
Pisha (58:21)
Right? No one wants to know that administrative bullshit. that's hysterical. So that's where we are right now. We have given you very, very little about the condition of these bodies, what actually happened to these girls. Just, we have a lot more facts to cover and this motion covers a ton of facts.
Raven (58:32)
Yeah!
Pisha (58:47)
Like Raven mentioned, it's 136 pages. I'm going to have to read it and then I'm going to have to listen to this podcast apparently before the next recording. But no, no, no, I'm totally going to cause I'm so in this now. But, but I think that pretty much covers us for this week, right? And then, and then next episode we're going over that Frank's motion, right? And yeah.
Raven (58:47)
my god.
to, it's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, yep.
Yeah, in more detail. Yeah, so we covered the first like, so the motion starts with the eight things you need to know. And that's where it starts. And that's where we're gonna end off. And we're gonna talk about the facts that are in that Frank's motion next time. Yeah, so Pisha, take us away.
Pisha (59:27)
Yeah, no, I'm so excited about it. I learned a lot just reading the slides better. So next time we're gonna wrap this up. We're gonna talk about this motion. We're gonna talk about these really morbid, gruesome, bizarre facts. It's wild. So please join us again. But in the meantime, like, follow, subscribe, listen, tell your friends, you know.
Raven (59:46)
Yeah.
Pisha (59:53)
Get the word out. Please do. I'll probably keep the pigeon though, because I like little birdie friends. So yeah, but they're not real. We'll talk about that another time. So I think that's really it for us this week and we'll see you next week. Just make sure that you stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Raven (59:53)
Send us a courier pigeon if you want to.
So yeah.
The birds are cool.
No.
Raven Deranger (1:00:21)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.