Defining Hospitality

When it comes to life changing events, there is nothing quite like travel. Joseph Diaz is the co-founder of AFAR Media, and he has taken it upon himself to use travel as a way to enrich the lives of the younger generation that doesn’t have the same opportunities. There’s a lot to be said about going to a completely new place and truly immersing yourself in the culture, and seeing what you can do to contribute to the community.  Listen to this week’s episode as he shares #hospitality insights with Dan Ryan today!

Takeaways: 
  • The hospitality world has been flipped upside down. In 2019 it was very guest centric, but today it is a two way street. It is a concept that embraces the idea of mutual benefit, and what the guest can bring to the community.
  • A form of hospitality where you put the guest on a pedestal is limiting and creates a fear of messing up. But what the guest truly craves is connection to the place they are visiting.
  • Travel is the best form of education. Getting young people to travel and explore the world will provide them opportunities they might not have ever had and can change their world.
  • You need to create a message to attract people to come visit your town or location not just during tourist season, but at all times of the year.
  • How do we continue to stay open to new experiences? The good, the bad, the ugly? We have natural tendencies to run away from things we don’t like, but those experiences are just as important.
  • The generation coming up is more in tune with their values and more open to travel and exploring other communities.

Quote of the Show:
 
1:34 “A 2019 definition of hospitality would be one that is extremely guest centric, where it's focused on the desk, doing everything to make the guests feel welcome, feel at home. You know, there's tons of  definitions that are similar to that in our world. And the way that we're thinking about things today, hospitality for us is a two-way street.
It is a concept that really embraces the idea of mutual benefit and what the guests can also contribute to the equation. You know, I think JFK, his famous ‘ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.’ Similarly ask, ‘not what your travels can do for you; ask what your travels can do for the communities where you're traveling and the planet in which we are living.’”
 Links: 

Shout Outs: 
0:26 Independent Lodging Congress
5:09 White Lotus
9:01 “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People” by Stephen Covey
9:45 Laura Redmond
9:49 Ben Pundole 
13:42 Teach for America
14:13 Rosa Linda Elementary School in South Phoenix, AZ
16:10 JFK 
16:16 Peace Corps
26:08 Reykjavik
26:09 Venice
30:20 Asheville, North Carolina
31:45 Vanuatu
36:51: Airbnb
1;04:44 Amika Moran
1;07:08 Staples
 Ways to Tune In: 

Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:00]
Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a travel expert and educator and entrepreneur deeply committed to inspiring and empowering people to live deeper, richer, and more fulfilling lives.
Co-founder of a farm media ladies and gentlemen, Joe Diaz. Welcome Joe.
Joseph Diaz: Thank you. Excited to be here. Thrilled to be talking about this today. I'm so excited to be here too. And, um, one of the ways that I found my way into this whole podcasting thing, I was doing the independent lodging Congress, uh, ID live interviews.
And I feel like they just really got started [00:01:00] at 30 minutes. So this longer format of podcast is just really refreshing to me. I get to go a little bit deeper and I'm just so glad you're here. I'm excited to be here. It's, uh, you know, we're going to be covering, uh, a lot of things that are near and dear to my heart.
And so let's do this. Yeah. So when we started at, when we approached that 30 minute mark, you were what I saw really lighting you up. And then we had to end it to respect everyone's time was, you know, just this idea of bringing responsibility into travel. Right. And, and what does that mean? And just enriching people.
And so before we get into it, how do you define hospitality? It's a great question. Um, I think it's a great question for the time we're in right now. Um, because probably the, our world has been flipped upside down and things have shifted in very dramatic ways. And I think, you [00:02:00] know,
a 2019 definition of hospitality.
Would be one that is extremely guest centric, where it's focused on the guest doing everything to make the guests feel welcome, feel at home. there's tons of definitions that are similar to that in our world. And the way that we're thinking about things today, hospitality for us is a two-way street.
It is a concept that really embraces the idea of mutual benefit, and what the guests can also contribute to the equation. I think of JFK, his famous asks not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Similar ask, not what your travels can do for you. [00:03:00] Ask what your travels can do for the communities where you're traveling and the planet in which we are living.
And, and we know through, I mean, there's tons of scientific research that shows us that when humans give of themselves to things that are bigger than just them, like those vibes, those good, positive vibes are infectious. They infect the person, receiving the person given and the standards, the people that are standing by watching.
And I think that's been kind of the evolution for us in our company is when we think about what a far was 10 years ago and why it was founded, it was founded on this idea that travel when done in a curious open-minded way, where you're willing to get outside your comfort zone and stretchers. That, that kind of travel, that spirit, that mindset transforms itself.[00:04:00]
And we know that travel, at least I do. And I was taught this from a very early age and shown it, the travel is the best form of education. We'd get out in the world and experience it in this kind of deeper way. It changes our lives in really dramatic ways. And that's really what, what afar has been really focused on is inspiring people to live these deeper, richer, more fulfilling lives.
I think the shift that has happened now since COVID, and since everything we've seen with these equality movements going on all around the world is that there's more to it. But when you actually go out and travel the world in this way, that there is so much untapped potential to make sure that that travel can also, you can leverage those experiences to really make a deeper impact in.
Where we're traveling, making sure that the money stays in those communities, the places you're traveling or supporting those communities and important ways. And that the travel that you're doing is [00:05:00] making the least negative impacts on the planet as possible. So it's really flipped. W we've really taken the concept of, um, travel of hospitality and really said, no, guys, this isn't a one-way street anymore.
This really needs to be a two-way street because we see just how connected we all are in this world. So hearing you say the two way street and kind of flipping it on its head, and it was all for the guest. But now the guest is actually bringing something to the table. Not now the guest has always brought something to the table and what's jumping into my mind is this idea of that show white Lotus, where if that was the old model, doing everything for the guests and all the bad actors and all the bad stuff that comes along with that now it's like, Hey, the guests actually is bringing so much, like how can we tie them all together and create an impacting experience for everyone?
The people providing the hospitality and the people receiving it. Totally, totally. I think, you know, I think, [00:06:00] you know, us in the hospitality industry and the travel industry where we put the guest on a pedestal, I think is actually a fear-based relationship. Like if we mess up, like shit will hit the fan, you know?
And like we can't get everything has to be perfect. I mean, we have to do everything. And that fear creeps in and creates this. I don't know, it creates these constructs, these limitations. And I think guests actually, when you truly get to what they're really looking for out of any given experience, I really feel like it's deeper connection, deeper connection to the, to the place that they're visiting primarily through the people that are involved in that experience.
And so they, and especially as you get to a kind of like higher level or more affluent type of travel, you know, there's more of that fear [00:07:00] there. And, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's, those guests are humans too. And arguably they'd been in more of a bubble than any, any other folks. And so how do you breaking them out of that bubble is actually a very refreshing.
Um, rewarding experience for the guest. So it's, it's being able to remove the fear out of it. And it's almost like I think of it. Like my mom was in the hotel business for 25 years. So I, you know, she always talked about the difference between the front of the house and the back of the house. And those are two very different houses under the same roof.
And the guest is never to see the back of the house. It's only the front of the house. And I really think that can be disrupted. I think secretly guests really do want to see the back of the house and the more that you can show them that and give them access to that, the deeper connections are made to those experiences and it's [00:08:00] sticky and it brings them back and that's what gets them talking.
And that's what makes them feel like humans. And that's where you get this mutual benefit. So this has come up in a couple of conversations. One of which was with a friend named Arnie. Who's like a huge culture guy. It's like corporate culture. Like, how do you build it? How do you do? And he said, look, if you want to know how the hotel really operates, what's happening in the back of the house, go see that, go show the guests what's going on there, bring them back, bring them on a tour.
And it's also interesting because Hilton calls their backer house, the heart of the house. And I do think that there's a way to like, get that heart out there. And, and I think that would be the best advertisement for any hotel. Yep. It's um, it's having, it's having confidence. I think, you know, it's, it is it's confidence and it's, um, it's a desire to move from what I think is still, but the re the relationship between guests [00:09:00] and hosts and hotel or hotel.
Yeah. Feels still like a very codependent relationship. Like the worst of each kind of can come out, you know? And like one plus one equals one in a sense where you're each party's giving up 50% of what is inside. And how do you really shift from this codependent relationship to a relationship that like, you know, the Stephen Covey's of the world, seven habits of successful habits of the best world's best people.
Like how do you go from a codependent relationship to a relationship based on interdependence, where now you're allowing people to give the best of themselves and bring more to the table than they ever could. And making that one plus one equal the proverbial three. Let's good for the guest. It's good for the hotel.
It's good for the place where that hotel [00:10:00] is. That's actually ties perfectly into, um, recently I was at this independent lodging Congress, um, meeting out in Brooklyn and, uh, one of your colleagues, Laura Redmond was there and she was on a panel with Ben Pundole from a hotel life. And he was asking like, what are you, what are you covering?
There were a couple of different journalists, like, Hey, what are you covering in the future? And she said like at a far, they want to cover how travelers can be more personally responsible. So, you know, my feeling is that traveling. Okay. There's a certain level of anonymity when you're traveling, but it's it doesn't give you authority to be unkind or be an asshole.
Right? How can we all be better citizens when we're traveling? Totally. I mean, it's, um, it's a great, it's a great mindset to be able to walk out your front door every morning. Knowing that what you're [00:11:00] doing is not only good for you, but good for others too. And the sense of like, look my actions reverberate.
And so it is important, at least for us at afar to recognize that we all have to take responsibility and ownership. Um, and if we don't, we'll just keep getting what we got. And so that, that is a very important value for, for us at a foreign for our audience. We have, we talked about this a lot, uh, far as like the tagline now is travelers who care.
It's built the companies built by travelers who care and what we're creating is for travelers who. And they want to understand in all the different ways possible how they can [00:12:00] express that care. And so a lot of it is around that. You know what I mean? It starts with just asking the right questions, right?
It's, you know, where's, where's this money that I'm spending truly going, how does this hotel treat their employees? Do you know, is their management team made up of, you can take a lot of different ways, you know, is there a management team, um, a diverse group of people. How many people working at the hotel have thrown up and lived in that area?
Um, what's their supply chain look like, we know where are they sourcing? You know? And so while sustainability is such a big and can be a very confusing word with many different kinds of definitions, um, you know, I think one of the things is to help [00:13:00] just travelers, understand what that field looks like.
And knowing that you can't tackle that entire field because you look at like the GST criteria as was like something like 147 different performance indicators. Like you're never going to check the box on all those things as a guest or as a hotel. We're the ones that you really care about, be aware of those and, you know, kind of pick your spots, um, and take responsibility for, for the, for the work, the action, the impact that you're going to have in any given place.
So as you're talking from our past conversations, and now this one, I'm just hearing a lot of this idea of giving kindness, curiosity, asking the right questions. Um, and in doing research on you, I noticed that you did teach for America. Yes. Where did you teach? And as I assume, that was [00:14:00] just right out of college.
How did a lot of that, that what you learned and experienced there? How did that inform who you are now teach for? America was one of the best decisions and most formative decisions I've made in my life. Um, I didn't realize it at the time that it was going to be such a profound three year experience for me.
You're right. It was right out of college. Um, after graduation, I got assigned to Phoenix, Arizona. Um, and so I taught at a school formal as formally known as Rosa Linda elementary school in south Phoenix. Um, and I taught fifth, fifth grade for two years in seventh and eighth grade. The school was, I'd say 98% Hispanic, uh, 1% black, 1% white, um, all [00:15:00] low income out of my 36 students, eight of them were monolingual Spanish speakers.
They didn't speak anything but Spanish. I had two students that were only monolingual English speakers, and the rest of the students were all transitioning from English or Spanish into English. All the parents were only Spanish speakers. Um, and you know, that really opened my eyes because I grew up in a, you know, a middle class, uh, household where luckily, you know, I had, uh, education was prioritized for us.
Um, you know, and I got to go to good school. And that was primarily because of the zip code that I grew up in. That was the, I won, I won the lottery. Like a lot of us, we won the zip code lottery and where I taught in south Phoenix, Arizona, uh, you know, 12th street and [00:16:00] Broadway. Those kids did not win the zip code lottery, you know?
And so to be able to see the education gap between have, and have nots, um, and how much of that is just chance, you know, um, really had a deep impact on making sure that, um, we give all kids the opportunity to have access high quality education. And that's not the case. Yeah. One of the reasons why I wanted to bring it up is you mentioned JFK and ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
And it reminded me of the peace Corps, and I know the peace Corps is still out there, but I feel it's, it's international. It's not kind of lifting where we stand. Right. And because we're here and teach for America, I have some friends that have done it and it's impact them all [00:17:00] profoundly. And I'm curious as far as, like, how did that experience help you on your path to where you are now?
I mean, I think one of the most, uh, tangible ways is it goes back to the quote that, you know, my mom and aunt really impressed upon me from an early age is that travels in the best form of education. And I saw these students. Never had a ch their worlds were two miles by two miles squared. That's how big their world was.
It was as big as their neighborhood. And most of those kids never had a chance to leave that neighborhood. One student whose parents had L you know, were a little bit more well off than the rest. So they could actually take a trip to the grand canyon, or they could go to the beach, um, which was like a five-hour drive away, you know, and that girl, Alexandra was her name.
She was able to relate [00:18:00] to me differently than the other kids. And so that's where it kind of clicked. And that's when, you know, when we decided to launch a far, the first thing that we launched was a program, a nonprofit program called learning afar, which is based on this idea, that travel was the best form of education.
And if we can get young people out in the world at an early age, it'll completely change their lives. And the lives of the people around them. All of a sudden, you go from a world that's like two miles by two miles square to like, holy shit. Like I have the whole universe in the Palm of my hand, you know, and that sense of confidence, that sense of empowerment, that realization that, um, you're worth something that there's others in this world that are like you, or even more worse off than you.
Cause what we do on these trips is like, you know, the first, the, some of the groups we sent a group to like Costa Rica, you know, and these are kids who are [00:19:00] like the kids at Roseland elementary, never had a chance to travel outside of their, uh, neighborhoods, low income, you know, all on free or reduced lunch and to be able to get them to go to a school in Costa Rica and paint the school and donate books and read to the kids and see how they live.
Like it just. The blinders back and then that some of those kids today, I mean our first group of kids that we said in 2009, uh, from a school in Oakland, two of those students are now teachers at that school in Oakland. Talk about, you know, a life-changing experience that you can now directly tie back to.
What's the impact that they're making on the community that they're living in through the power of travel. And I think it just beautifully expresses how travel can be such a transformative experience, not only for the self, but for others as well. So when you think about [00:20:00] the impact that travel can have positively for the traveler and the, and the giver of hospitality or the host, if you will.
Um, and as you at afar are thinking about. The content you're creating to those people who want to impact and be impacted. Um, how do you guys generate your ideas and w how are you coming up with the content and how are you, how do you maintain such, I guess, like thoughtful curation of the content that you're doing.
I love your questions. Um, they're deep. And I think, I think it first starts with values. You know, what do you believe? What do you, what's your vision for the future of this world? How do you want people to treat each other? How do you want to feel what kind of behaviors and values do you need to have to make that happen?
You know, and so, you know, we think, you know, diversity and [00:21:00] equality, equal act, you know, all of those things are, are really important. So that's, that's where it starts is values, but then. How does it really happen? And I think one of the biggest changes we, we are making and are just in the very early stages of is thinking about who are those pool of writers and photographers that we're tapping into.
And if you look at the by-lines, um, or the contributors page in earlier versions of the magazine, you're going to see a lot of the usual suspects. You know, it's the proverbial white guy from Brooklyn, who is a travel writer that we send out and, you know, and so we, we got a very, even though we, we came in with a very different approach and I'd say people notice that off the bat over time, it still felt like we were [00:22:00] only.
Really representing one narrow slice of a perspective. And so one of the big things that we've done in this year, and this is really kudos to, uh, Julia, Cosgrave our VP editor in chief and Laura Redmond, our director of digital content and their teams. This is a Hey, and this is not easy to do is to start to create new pools of contributors with different backgrounds, um, and different ethnicities, uh, and different definitions of gender.
And so by doing this, like we just hired a new executive editor. We're thrilled about, we took, we're taking a leap, but we've got COVID. She lives in Nairobi, Kenya based there. So, and she doesn't really come from travel. She almost comes from like a public health. Um, [00:23:00] background and science back. So who she has is her writers and her contributors and her use the word Rolodex.
It's like, we're talking 1985, but her Rolodex is, are people that we have never had access to before. And that's where those changes really where the rubber meets the road. It's doing the hard work of branching out of your bubble. And, and we had a afar, you know, especially after the summer that we had last year with all these, you know, killings of murders of innocent black people and people of color is said, Jesus, like, how do we step up?
How do we do better? And so we had to really do these, you know, and we're not, we're not there yet. We're just starting to really churn, but like making these very structural shifts. At our company and putting things down on paper that, um, resonate with the entire group. And the first step there was, you know, [00:24:00] let's create a w we're going to change our company to be a public benefit company, meaning it's not just responsible to the shareholders anymore.
There's three of us, you know, um, it needs to be responsible to all stakeholders. That's an interesting shift of this idea of shareholders versus stakeholders. And I, and tell me more about that because I'm super intrigued by because. Typical corporation or company or there's shareholders, and you're doing everything to benefit the shareholders, but I love the idea that we're talking more about stakeholders and, and actually touched upon it just in the travel experience.
Um, but I'd just love to hear about what, what it means to afar stakeholders. Who are your states. Yeah. Well, why we do it because, you know, even though, um, there's, you know, reams of data that says by doing this, you're going to be a better company, you know, more sustainable company, more profitable. Yup. [00:25:00] All that stuff.
Like, that's not really why we're doing it. I'd say like Greg and I wanted to do this from there. It's because it just feels right. And it's the kind of place we want to be. Um, you know, so. And work it live and interact with, um, it's how we want to wake up in the morning, knowing that it's not just about us.
Um, even though that can feel good sometimes it's, uh, it's, it's the short game. Um, so our stakeholders are really, um, you know, our employees, uh, uh, our independent contractors, our advertisers and partners, our audience, you know, the most important is, you know, they play a role in this too. This isn't, once again, that's a two-way street, you know, that's not just us telling them it's, uh, it is, it's a two way street.
And, and I think, you know, you, you, you see the other side, um, [00:26:00] and we're no experts in this. We're stumbling along like everybody else. I think our heart's in the right place and we're open to feedback and we're open to criticism and we take a hard. At all those things and try to get it right. Even if we didn't get it right the first time it's just an ongoing process.
And, you know, you see this out in, in destinations because there are certain destinations that have just, you know, kept on pulling those golden eggs from the goose and they weren't taking care of the goose. And you look at places like, you know, Reykjavik or Venice or, you know, Monterey or the Farrell app.
Like you see these places and there is a backlash to tourists and tourism. And they're saying, we don't even want a tourism board anymore. We don't want tourists. It's because the destination has not been thoughtful about making sure that their strategy is inclusive for [00:27:00] all the people that are impacted by the operations of, of the industry.
So that's a really interesting point. Those tourism boards are the ones who were kind of developing strategy. And it's not just, if you build it, they will come. It's, they're actually going out and marketing and selling and enticing people to come visit. Are you guys at a far and your audience, stakeholder, are you interfacing with any of those tourism boards and if you are, or aren't, um, what's a way that you could envision an outcome in a change in a place like that that may be overwhelmed and as sick of tourists.
Yeah. So w you know, tourism advertising like, so advertising is like 80% of our business and tourism advertising. It's like 80% of our advertising revenue. So, you know, tourism boards are a very active. You know, client and partner of ours and we interact with a lot of them because they're [00:28:00] interested in tapping into kind of, you know, the audience that we have, the world's best travelers.
Um, you're seeing, you know, like in any industry, you've got your leaders that come out in front, you know, do you think, so they feel it's the right thing to do. Um, and that's where they want ahead. And they take that leap first and then you've got your followers that eventually will get there because if they don't, they'll just be out of business at some point.
And so they just need to be dragged along. Um, so we have the privilege of working with, you know, some tourism boards that are very forward-thinking on this, um, and that are really trying to create. Can you give an ex, can you give an example of, of one, I don't want to like ignore others, but like give me a, give me a great case study about where the, yeah, I mean, so in different ways, Charleston.
You know, Charleston, South Carolina, highly touristed, um, [00:29:00] city for lots of good reasons for lots and lots of taunted. Um, you know, we could put them in a cage match with Savannah about who has the most haunted city. And new Orleans might be a third too. You know, they all get in that, that match. But you know, they also have a lot of history and a lot of dark history and a dark past, and, um, you know, Helen Hill and Catherine Doherty and the team at Charleston have really, you know, they, they do not want to shy away from that.
And they realize that is an important part of what needs to come up for all visitors. And that, you know, the romanticized idea of plantation culture is not really what plantations were all about, you know, in the 1800. These were places where slaves were forced to do work, um, that they weren't paid to do that they were ripped away from their families, that they were beaten, [00:30:00] killed, chased, and had fear struck into them every single day.
Like that's what those places were all about. So being able to tell a more holistic story about where you come from is really, I think it's courageous. Um, you don't always get it right the first time, but that's, uh, you know, they are a tourism board that is stepping out and saying, we're not going to keep doing things like the way we did them.
And we need to embrace the stories from all of the pieces. That are from here or have been forced to be from here. And so that's one side of it, you know, the cultural people side, you've got other destinations, like, um, like Asheville, North Carolina, where they get slammed with tourism in certain parts of the year.
And so what they're trying to do is create a message that shows how do you come visit this place? Not just in, you know, the most crowded, beautiful [00:31:00] times of the year, but like there's things to do all year around. So talking about how shoulder seasons or off seasons, um, and all the great reasons why going in the off season, more access to locals, more ability to tap into venues that you wouldn't have been able to get into a different experience because you know, it's not slammed with tourism, tourists.
So, those are just like a couple of ways that, um, tourism boards are starting to do it. You also see just kind of a third thing and it's, this is more explicit is that, um, tourism boards are actually creating like, uh, PACS or agreements that they make or a pledge that they make the tourist sign, you know?
So like, if you go, if you, if you land in Reykjavik, you'll see kind of like right on the wall at, um, you know, at baggage claim, you know, how do you be a good, a good citizen? [00:32:00] How do you be a good tourist here? Here are the ways to do it. Um, I want to say there's a small little island in the south Pacific.
It might be like Vanuatu where like the kids came up of that island came up with a pledge. So ground up stakeholders that manifest into kind of a, a visa that gets slapped right into your passport. So like right in your passport, you have your visa. That is an agreement between you and the locals that was created by the kids.
Uh, you know, the students of that place. That's fantastic. Brick and powerful. Um, and so these are, you know, these are ways that show, how do we create more inclusive? Um, yeah. [00:33:00] Tourism then. That really brings out the strengths and minimizes the negatives. And we knew like that's the other thing is like anything we do has a cost.
I mean, everything has a cost. There's always costs. So like to say, oh, well, you know, this flight shaming stuff, like they're only looking at the flight chambers are only looking at one side of the equation. They're only looking at the costs of the, that those flights have borne on the environment, uh, per the amount of carbon that we're spewing emissions that were carbon dioxide or spewing into the air.
They're not able to measure the benefits of that travel of each individual person. And so what we want to try to do is show the world that like, There's a whole, it's a, it's a PNL. You've got your costs and you've got your benefits. And what we're trying to do is make sure that the, the benefits, the impacts that we make in those places [00:34:00] outweigh the costs that it takes us to get there, travel there, eat there.
And it's a balance sheet too, because you know, obviously you want the equity and the value to grow over time. Totally, totally. So it's a question so on your, okay, so you have these really great examples of the tourism boards and how they're thinking differently. Right. But then if you go into the audience, so, so.
In a way they're almost attracting a certain type of guest, right. Or they want more, they're turning up the volume on the type of guests that they want a more responsible guests, a more curious guest or, and that's the self-selecting part. I may need it, but it is all just any person that comes, they want to be aware of.
This is how you do it. Yeah. Okay. So then back to that original or the, one of the bigger stakeholders of your audience, like tell us about your audience and how, how are they, how are they finding each other? Who, who is your audience and how are they finding these kind of [00:35:00] lanterns that are out there? Yeah.
So the core of our audience, um, I think, uh, as you know, it starts with, these are travelers who care. They care about, um, the world, they care about their neighbors. They care about, um, leading lives that are deep, rich, and fulfilling they're global citizens. They're global citizen traveling. Curious open-minded um, want to explore, they want to get their ass off of the proverbial bus tour and sit at the kitchen table.
They know that, you know, travel can create a, uh, a piece of glass between us and the place where we're trying to interact with, and they're trying to, they, they want to get around that. Um, and you know, these are, I think of as, and, you know, the data shows us, these are the world's best travelers. They spend the most on travel.
And [00:36:00] this is compared to like, you know, just our other media, other travel media out there. We're number one. And the amount that they spend, their affluence, their ability to influence others and their care for the planet. And, um, the places that they're going in a sense, we, this is a self-selecting audience because this is the, this is the spirit that afar was started with.
This is the spirit that it's carried on with. And so it naturally attracts people who, you know, care about the same, same things. It just so happens that that mindset translates to people that travel the most people that spend the most and people that have the least amount of impact or make the most amount of biggest amount of net benefit on a place.
And when, when was afar founded, so we're 12 years old now. So we launched, [00:37:00] we launched in August of 2009. Okay. The reason why I'm asking is when I hear about the people who want to sit at the table, oftentimes in hotels, there's not like the, or sit at the kitchen table. There's not a kitchen table to sit up.
So is there any tie into like the rise of Airbnb and short-term rentals and afar and the impact? I mean, we all want, we launched around the same time. You know, I remember having conversations with Brian Chesky when he wa you know, in 2008, you know, when we were sharing yeah. He was sharing what he was trying to do.
We were sharing what we were trying to do. Um, so, you know, we all kind of launched around the same time. He's obviously gone on to do some pretty amazing things and really help disrupt a disrupted industry in a bigger way. So I feel like, you know, at that, at that time, people were wanting to. Um, get out of what [00:38:00] I, maybe they felt was more of a stale cookie cutter hotel experience.
I mean, I remember talking to hotel liaise in 2009 about our concept. And honestly, they would look at us like we had, you know, foreheads, what do you, Joe, what do you talk like? You want travelers to get outside the hotel and experience the destination? Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We want them to be in the restaurants.
We want to keep them in the hotel as long as possible. And you're just like, holy shit, this isn't going to go well, you know, and now, you know, it's 180 degrees different, you know, they're trying to figure out how to make sure that they're giving the guests the most local experience as possible. They're not shy about getting them outside the hotel.
I haven't had one meeting to just kind of show you how it's, how it's flipped, where like, you know, the GM was like, how about if we locked the doors to the hotel for several hours a day and don't let them come back in. You know, now [00:39:00] he's playing in an extreme position to try to flesh out what the real idea might be.
But like that would, that would have been, you would have been put in the insane asylum in 2009, uh, any GM that had suggested that idea, going back to 2009 and you're having these conversations and getting a far up off the ground and, and, and building it up and you hear those, they must, they must've been really discouraging to hear those stories where they want to keep everyone in.
At what point did you know. Oh shit. We have something here. I think when we started to see the audience start to flock to it, and we started givi getting, you know, some of our like core advertisers, like nodding their head to this. And like, we started getting, um, luxury non, when I say non-endemic, I mean, uh, account, uh, brands that are [00:40:00] not really related to travel when we started getting like non travel luxury brands saying, you guys got to tell us more like we're interested because you know, some of those higher end luxury brands, once again, you got the ones that are the leaders and then everyone else or the lemmings.
And so you had like, remember like our first luxury advertisers were max Mara. And I'm Parmesan a flurry, a, you know, these are watches that are, you know, 50 to $250,000, you know? So you knew things were when I, you know, this magazine that like by two crazy guys who have never been in travel before launching in the downturn, I mean, we started hiring people a week after Lehman brothers collapsed, gives you kind of a sense of when, like we started launching, you know, like you get, you get these like non-endemic luxury advertisers that are like, we want to be a part of this ride [00:41:00] to kind of like, alright, it's, we've got something here.
Um, and you know, we just have to continue to do the work to like really flesh it out and show that this is, you know, this is the way that the world is going. If you Googled experiential travel in 2009, when we launched, literally put that, that quote in phrase, uh, that phrase in quotes, You would only get like five or six definitions that would pop up onto your Google search rankings, like that had the words experience with travel.
And there were operators that are doing this and you know, it wasn't like we invented the mindset. I think we, we framed it and we put it into a pretty package that was compelling for people. You Google that phrase today, depending on where you're Googling from. I mean, you're going to get anywhere from 300,000 to 600,000 search results around the idea of experiential travel.
So this thing is just like, that's amazing. And then, okay, so [00:42:00] then going back to, okay, when you're starting and you had the idea and you're running with it to, to use that GM, who's like, we want to keep everyone in, um, the other people that were in the travel marketplace. Uh, what I normally am asking is like the worst experience of hospitality.
But in this case it's not hospitality. It's when you look at this, the world of travel content that was out there, and you saw this a really poor example of what it was, and you're like, we want to go this way. What was the most, what drove you to be as opposite and different from whatever the existing thing was out there?
The most,
we were travelers that were being served in the way that we wanted to be served. So it's almost like there was just nothing there. Everything was the status quo. And you're like, this is not, it's just not there. We need to blaze a new path in a sense. I mean, you know, it started, you know, [00:43:00] the, I'd say like the current were peeled back on a trip that Greg and I had taken to India.
Um, and it was like a, it was before we launched the magazines where we actually came up with the idea after a six week trip to India, you know, we had a ticket in the deli, a ticket out of Mumbai, nothing really planted in between. We'd kind of like plan as we go stayed in amazing hotels and got to see, you know, all the different corners of India.
But the, the, the way that we traveled was really about the people we would meet an interesting person. So Dan, like, you're awesome. We had a great time meeting you, like who are some of your friends that you should introduce us to, that we can go and see, we did that for six weeks, basically traveled by referral.
It was like, you know, and so we would ping pong across the country and meet all these, you know, entrepreneurs, a guy that started with a little [00:44:00] import export business of like 200 square feet and got to spend a day with him looking. His 250,000 square feet of space, you know, um, a tour guide that hiked us up, like the tallest peak in Southern India and, you know, asking him the question, this goes back to like just empowering travelers to ask the right questions or to even ask questions.
And I just asked them like, is this your passion is guiding people on mountains, your passion. And he's like, no, I'm like, awesome. Thanks for the non bullshit answer. I got a follow up, like, what is your passion? He's like, I'm an artist. I love, I love painting. You know? So follow up question is I love that.
How can I see your work? Show me, tell me, bring me. Yeah. And so in three questions we got from hiking up a mountain that [00:45:00] he was uninspired about hiking up, got a little more like an extra exercise to. Ending up in his parents' home in Carola, um, meeting his wife, his parents, his mom went and picked like fruit off of their tree and made like juice.
And we went into his bedroom that was smaller than the size of this little box that I'm in and looked at all of the art that was hanging on the wall. And hearing his stories like we paid for a guide, I take us up a mountain and we ended up with a mountain of experiences that at the end of the day are things that I'm telling you about vividly, you know, 13 years later, was there any king Fisher beer, as you were looking around at his art, the king Fisher was on the last days, there was king Fisher beer involved in every part of our, but the king Fisher is really where [00:46:00] the, that was the impetus for the starting of afar.
As we were sitting on a beach, you can go, uh, after like this long trip, amazing trip, but arduous trip, you can know that, you know, India, isn't always the easiest place to travel through and sitting on a beach and go, uh, drinking a bunch of king fishers and saying, God there, we just had all these amazing experiences meeting all these incredible people.
And there isn't been a trap. Brand that really talks about travel this way. It's all about like, you know, the model on the deserted beach on top of an elephant or, you know, the woman on the Bosphorus in a flowing green dress, like beautifully lit, like, you know, those are beautiful photos, I guess, but like, come on.
Like when have we seen that when you were, when you were sharing the story with the artists, they reminds me, I was in Cusco 20 something years ago. And my godmother from the bay area in California, she, she had a guy that worked at her print shop that was from Cusco. And he had, uh, his family [00:47:00] was multi-generational in this house, like on the Plaza.
And he was a musician. All of his friends were musicians. And I remember just going down into their basement one night, they were all just playing. We were drinking, I forget the name of the beer, but they were giant bottles, eating Guinea pig and like. It was just the most, one of the most memorable travel experiences ever, because we were just, we were at, you know, this is we're, you know, this shows about like defining hospitality and I'm a big, like, you know, show don't tell guy, like he can define it, but like the stories that we're swapping right now, you know, that's, we are showing what that is.
It's, we're giving something of ourselves to a, a common purpose and that ability to all share in that experience together is what we remember. I mean, Bosher set it on your first podcast, like, you know, some [00:48:00] ridiculous number of hotels that he's tasted in new shark. Like, what was it? 206 or something like that.
It's like, Jesus, man. That's crazy. Um, but he's like, I don't remember the flooring. I don't remember like the crystal, like I remember when someone did something for me that was. Genuine. Like it's, that's what it's all about. And it's like, there's a million beautiful places in this world. There's thousands of like beautiful hotels that, you know, owners spent probably too much money making them look great.
But it's the ones where you've had those like meaningful connections with people that you will remember. And those are like, we think about like the stories that define hospitality. It ultimately comes back to those connections that you have with people. I like one real quick one. Like we were in mitten involved Germany.
Um, Greg and I had, were traveled with some friends in MIT involved. Um, we were [00:49:00] on a quest. We had, we had stumbled into this woman's house on a hike during a storm. And she, we went into her into her small little kitchen. She only spoke German. There was a, uh, another traveler that was Eric. He was German and drunk and they were drinking this beer that we were like, this is like the best beer in the entire world.
We got to go find his beer and it was called mitten Boulder. And so we had to go to the town of mitten vault to go find this beer. Lo and behold, we get to this town, we'd go to this restaurant for lunch. And it's a husband and wife and we become friendly with them at lunch. And, you know, by the end of lunch, he's bringing out this like big roast that hasn't been cooked yet.
And he's like, we're like, what are you doing with that? He's like, oh, I'm going to cook it for tonight. Like, that's amazing. He's like, do you guys want to stay for dinner? We ha we [00:50:00] were at their place. The restaurant house was above the restaurant from 12:00 PM. So like 10:00 PM, we had dinner with them. We have lunch with them.
We had roasts with them, like talk about hospitality. I mean, the fact that all we did was just be open to the experience, but they'd offered me more of themselves than was expected. They were open and welcoming and you just said you were open. And it's just really interesting that through all these conversations that it really has to do with who's the most open.
Right. And then I, in talking to a mentor of mine, he said, look, he's open to so many people, but many people are closed off and they're closed off because they think they're either above the situation or person or below it. And, and it just closes them off. And I think the more that we can be open, the better and beer always tastes better [00:51:00] after our hike.
Right. Totally. And I think that's the word. Is how do we continue to stay open? Um, how do we, you know, continue Joseph Campbell says you got to embrace it all. You know, you got to stay open to it, all the stuff of life, the good, the bad, the ugly. And like, you know, as humans, we have natural tendencies to close down on the things that we don't like.
We run, we run away from the things we're averse to naturally, and we chase the things that we love. And, you know, this is, uh, I hope that, you know, I mean the, the fact that we, I think hopefully each generate successive generation continues to open a little more and awaken, you know, and the [00:52:00] conversations that you hear.
Podcasts or that you read in books or the courses that you see, like people are talking about, you know, things like, you know, meditation or mindfulness in ways that we're only talked about by, you know, a handful 30 or 40 years ago. So this is becoming more, more mainstream and it's going to be really important because in a time where, you know, the world feels like it is closed in around us, literally sheltering in place, you know, is the world closing in around you not being able to see your family, not being able to go to the hospital with your wife, who's about to deliver your child.
Like the world is closed around you. How can we continue to do things and live in a way that allows us to stay open to it? It's almost like we're, uh, we're about to, and we, I thought we were a little bit closer, but it's almost as if we haven't gotten to the place where we're, we're entering this great reopening, this Bach and hall of [00:53:00] reopening and just experience and being out there.
And, uh, and I just, I want it to happen. I want it to happen for the world. And so actually that's a really great point because outside of this pandemic where we're still in the midst of it and everything is going. So if you just, if you were to take that off of your shelf, as far as you Joe at afar and what you're doing, what's keeping you up at night besides my 22 month old, you, besides your 20, or maybe in addition to, you know, I mean, you, I'm nervous, I'm nervous that, um, things are going to go back to business as usual.
You know, I, I feel like. You know, we spent a lot of time diving into the concept of sustainability through the pandemic and sustainability in the broad sense of the word, you know, from an economic, [00:54:00] socioeconomic cultural perspective as well. I don't know. I mean, you know, you hear all these horror stories about, um, guests that are acting like assholes, um, to staff.
And you're seeing stories in the news where like, what was it in June or July, like 10%. And this has been kind of an ongoing average is like 10% of hospitality workers are quitting every month. It's like 750,000 workers. And a lot of it is because, you know, one they're underpaid, two they're overwork, three they're super stressed for, they don't have any benefits.
And five, the people that are coming to ask them for things are being complete dicks. Yeah. I heard a shocking thing. I started a company called blue Canary. We help coach teams to be safe. And the shot, the most shocking thing I learned on the housekeeping front is it was either 85 or 95% of [00:55:00] all housekeepers were sexually harassed in some way or another.
That's ridiculous. I mean, it's unacceptable and it's inexcusable and it's egregious. And, um, you know, it goes back to once again, I think, um, you know, if I'm going to, well, one it's educating the guests. Um, one, it's not, it's not tolerating guests that are acting like assholes and just getting them out of there.
As soon as that behavior starts to rear its ugly. Um, so just hit the road, like you're out. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, like you saw the no shirts, no shoes, no service signs and like McDonald's and like 1985, like, you know, if you act like an asshole, you'll be asked to leave. Like that's the that's really should be kind of the next no shirt, no shoes, no service sign.
That's, I'd love to see a hotel actually put that on their front, their [00:56:00] front door. If you act like an asshole, you will need to leave. You'll be asked to leave. So part of it is guest education setting expectations that the, for zero tolerance of that kind of thing, but it's also goes back to like what we've been talking about, you know, the reset of what the definition of hospitality needs to mean and empowering hotels owners, empowering, you know, their managers to make those calls because it impacts.
Everyone. And so you, I think of that as energy, you do not want that energy flowing through your doors. You don't want that energy. You don't want your, your employees exposed to that energy. You don't want them bringing that home to their families. You don't want to have, you know, so like guests and empowerment and hotels and hospitality in general, tourism in general, taking a stand and saying, what [00:57:00] is acceptable and what isn't, and, and embracing this new concept of, of hospitality, which is all about the two way street.
I love it. I'm thinking about you a far and where you're going. What's your biggest challenge and need now? Well, I mean, uh, we're, we're not through this pandemic, you know, there's still a lot of destinations or, you know, stopping and starting, um, Asia for leisure. Business two is still pretty closed down to, you know, American travelers.
Um, there's a lot of confusion in the marketplace. I mean, to try to figure out how to plan a trip to Europe is next to near impossible because of just all the changes. So we're just living in a very like dynamic, you know, fluid environment. And, and, uh, if you talk to Laura Redmond, our head of digital [00:58:00] and Michelle, Dan, who runs a lot of that tutorial for us on, we called her the COVID queen, because that's what she covered for, you know, Monson and openings and the closings and the like, so we're having to like pivot was one of the words of like 20, 20, 20, 21.
And it was like, we just have to kind of pivot and make sure that we're on top. Our fingers are on the pulse of, of the current news. It was a woman, um, at that event, uh, what was her at Victoria Walker? Uh, she writes for the points guy. And she's when you talked about pivots, she was like, it was so funny.
She was like, you know, I'm a, I'm a travel writer, but all of a sudden, I, I, we, I woke up one day and I had to become a science writer. Like I like traveling and it was really funny the way she put it. It was hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? My heart goes out to them because that was, that's not their beat.
I'm not a scientist, but you know, they learned it and embraced it. And, um, you know, I got to say like, you know, [00:59:00] that it's been very stressful on our team. You know, all these changes, not to mention you dealing with everything else going on in your own personal life, but like the fact that your world is doing this every single day.
And like you're rewriting a story 10 different times. It's like, uh, Europe closed the borders again, guests, we need to go back in. And re-edit that thing, you know, that is, that becomes tedious and stressful. So that's been, you know, making sure that we're taking care of our team and that we're all looking out for each other.
I think that's. Yeah, that's one of my biggest priorities is that, you know, our team feels empowered that they feel tucked in that they have the freedom to say, Hey, when they need a break, they can take a break. And, um, and to continue to bring in more diverse voices that can be representative of all of us and show us that through diversity comes strength, um, of opinions and strength of [01:00:00] direction and strength of, you know, inclusivity.
Those are, you know, those I think are like for us, really the most important things. And I had something there, you pass past it, you went past it really quickly. But I think I hadn't heard this before, but to feel tucked in, to feel cozy and cared for like that. That's amazing. I mean don't we all want to feel, but I've never heard that used before.
We used that before. I mean, you know, I got to give our former publisher, um, credit for this, uh, Ellen as a Dow who's, you know, a mentor to me. I love using a lot of her one-liners. Um, and I steal them from, I tell her, I said, I'm going to steal that one from you. And like, she would steal it from you. Now this comes from Ellen.
She always spoke about, you know, we gotta keep people tucked in. You gotta make them tuck it. And like Greg and I being kind of like the hard charging and she's a [01:01:00] hard charger. I mean, she grew up in the Bronx, she doesn't mess around, you know? Um, and she sees something, she goes after it, but like the reason why people love her, not only because of like all the joy she exudes, but she really cares about making sure that people are tough.
And like, it was a very amazing, awesome compliment to have for us, you know, being too like, you know, kind of type a ma dominant male energy who didn't care about as much about celebrating. Like it's just about like, let's get the result and like, all right, we did that. What did, what did we do wrong on that?
How do we learn from it? Let's move on, you know? And she's like, that's not going to touch people in Joe. Oh my God. That's amazing. Huh. Okay. So that, yeah. Thank you, Ellen. Um, the future, what are you most excited about?
We have a whole [01:02:00] generation of travelers coming up that just, I think care more that they're more aware, um, that their values are more aligned in places that I see. We'll manifest behaviors that ultimately are more beneficial for the planet and, um, and its people. So I think we're continuing to see more awakening.
I'm extremely impressed by the young minds out there that are pushing the limits, and I'm extremely encouraged by the work and that they're doing and, and the things that they believe in. And I think that's, that gives us hope. It gives us, um, inspiration and, you know, at the end of the day, it gives us positive momentum to continue to move the ball forward and [01:03:00] talk about travel.
And is something that can be transformational for the self, for local communities and for our planet. And that's ultimately traveling, travel needs to have, and tourism needs to have a bigger role at the table. I think it gets, it gets short, changed a lot. And like, you know, the tourism in his store is, is like, you know, the eighth one down on the totem pole, you know, it's not like, you know, the foreign minister is like, yeah, whatever like that, like, you know, the minister of tourism, that's like the guy that, you know, maybe made like, you know, a, a, a pretty hefty donation to the campaign donation.
And now you get the beam tourism minister. Congratulations. So that needs to hopefully that starting to change where governments are realizing. What a critical role tourism has, um, you know, [01:04:00] this flow of people and goods and the ability, um, it's at the hub. It really is at a hub of everything. And so we need to, uh, you know, take, take tourism and put it on a more important pedestal when it comes to sitting at the table with, um, with decision-makers at a governmental lab.
I agree talking another conversation I had. It's like, what makes me different from today to who I'll be in five years, it's the books I've read and the people I've met really. Um, and I think that is not just me, but for everyone. Um, okay. Let's pretend you're current. You, the Joe of today goes back to Phoenix just before you take on your first assignment at teach for America at, was it Rosa Linda high school at rose Linda elementary now called Irene Lopez elementary after our vice assistant principal, who was an amazing woman who passed [01:05:00] and they named it in honor of her Irene Lopez.
She was amazing. Okay, awesome. Um, more than you need to know, but I had no, well, a really good friend of mine, Amika Moran. She did teach for America in somewhere in Louisiana. And now she's a principal in east Palo Alto. It's changed. Realize she's been doing it for years and years and years. So, um, and, and it impacted, I don't know if there's a scoreboard of how many people she's impacted positively, but it's, it's incredible, but let's pretend you, you run into yourself before you're going into your first day, teaching everything that you know today.
What advice do you give your younger self before you step foot into that school?
Um,
good things take a long time to happen. And, um, and there, there is a force in the universe [01:06:00] that Albert Einstein called the most powerful force in existence. And he said, that's the power of compound interest. And compound interest is really a combination of like, you know, dog-eared incremental, consistent effort applied.
And if you can be, you know, get, if you can get after. You know, consistently every single day that will create really amazing results. Um, and so to, you know, to understand that if you really want exponential growth, like I was taught on some of my meditation retreats, these really grueling like 10 [01:07:00] day the Pasana silent retreats, like you'll spend 11 hours on a cushion.
And like the teacher, all the teacher says is, alright, keep working, start again, keep working, start again, keep working start again. And that notion, I don't think, um, is something that, you know, I think the downside of this generation, the generations coming up is like, we've gotten used to the press button company.
Like you can just click it on a phone. It's easy. Staples just hit the red button. It's easy. Um, no like the good things take a long time. And, um, you know, that was like advice that my mom had given me in my high school. Yearbook never existed. A person who lived the life of ease, whose name is worth remembering.
And that's, you know, good things take a long time to happen. And compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. And so if [01:08:00] you apply, you know, this get after it consistently approach every single day, um, that's pretty darn good. And if I, if I would have like really done that with like my investing, when I was like 21 years old, just put in and no fee index funds that, that mark to the S and P the NASDAQ and dad.
You know, 25 years later you would be in a different place. So that's, I think that's, that's um, it's nice to reflect back on and that Vogel Jack Bogle, the founder of Vanguard is standing up in his grave right now. We've been great. Ben Graham. Hi, fuck. They're doing a high five. Um, I'm always amazed at such a simple concept of compounding interest was always so mystifying that Albert Einstein and I I've been thinking about that a lot recently and it kind of ties into the books we've read and the people we meet, I think a really a [01:09:00] more powerful concept than that is also the idea of compounding relationships and the more collisions that we have interacting with people in meaningful ways.
I think that's the stuff that really changes the world as well. The compounding principle definitely, you know, it applies to the numbers pretty easily. It does. It applies to the soft, the, what I call soft, you know, the things that are less tangibly defined, uh, harder to put your fingers on. Um, it applies to those as well.
And, and, and when you realize it is when you're stuck and you go to make a call and you have the opportunity, you know, you can call 20 people that'll come to your aid or like, or the other side is I'm going to call one person and cross my fingers that they're going to be willing to help me. Yeah. And so that's where that comes to life.
Awesome. So, Joe, where can people connect with you? How do they. Yeah, [01:10:00] well, um, obviously, you know, they should go to a far.com. I'd say they could sign up for our daily newsletter called daily wander. That's an awesome way to just get, um, our content coming to you every single day. It's free. Um, you know, we're on, we're on all the social channels of our media on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and the lake.
Um, and then, you know, I haven't spent as much time on social, but you can always hit me up. Twitter is probably where I spend, like maybe most of my time. And I'm Joe as afar, um, at Jody is afar and definitely just shoot me an email, joe.com. Hey Joe. First of all, I just want to say thank you so much for your time and your stories.
I love just chatting with you makes, you know, an hour feels like, you know, 10 minutes and you ask some thoughtful questions. Yeah. You know, it gets people thinking and that's, that's part of, I think, why we need to be here and I've celebrate your work. And I'm [01:11:00] grateful for it is, is you're asked great questions and great questions, help people come up with trying to come up with great answers.
And that's hospitality, man. You're doing it. Yeah. Oh, now you're making me blush, but thank you. And also thank you to our listeners. Um, I hope Joe's work at a foreign. What afar is doing in this conversation helped evolve your ideas on what makes hospitality special. And if it did, please refer it to a friend because we just want to keep getting the message out there.
So thank you all very much.