Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Are you a CRO looking for insights and ideas from your peers?
Are you a Revenue Leader with aspirations to become a Chief Revenue Officer?
Are you a CEO looking to appoint a CRO to scale your business?
Welcome to the CRO Spotlight podcast, a weekly show featuring insights from Chief Revenue Officers, B2B Revenue Leaders, and CEOs.
Hosted by Warren Zenna, Founder and CEO of The CRO Collective, the show goes deep behind the scenes with the people who have been there, done that, and have seen the results.
The CRO Spotlight Podcast is an open, free-form conversation that digs into real issues that Revenue Leaders and CROs grapple with everyday.
Hi. I'm Warren Zena, founder and CEO of the CRO Collective, and welcome to the CRO spotlight podcast. This show is focused exclusively on the success of chief revenue officers. Each week, we have an open frank and free form conversation with top experts in the revenue space about the CRO role and its critical impact on BDD businesses. This podcast is the place to be for CROs, sales and marketing leaders who aspire to become CROs, and founders who are looking to appoint a CRO or wanna support their CRO to succeed.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Now let's go mix it up. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the CRO spotlight podcast. This is Warren Zen. I'm the founder of the CRO Collective.
Speaker 1:And really lucky today, I got Amy Swan, who's the CRO CCO of Mixpanel. And, you know, she's got an amazing background, and she has the perfect CRO role. And I'm really looking forward to talking to her about a lot of the ways in which she's kind of developed her role across a 17 year old company. So I know you have a really interesting background. I mean, you also did some other post Syracuse University education and then you with Boston.
Speaker 2:I was with Boston Consulting Group.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. So I mean, it's interesting because you've done all this consulting work, which I did too, you know, not not with those big companies. I did it in different guys, but I know what it's like to kind of be a consultant and sort of then get into this sort of marketing and sales and revenue thing. It's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:So I wanna hear a bit more about your background, how you ended up at Mixpanel. This interesting perspective that you have, which I completely agree with, is how the customer really is the center of everything and how no one thinks about this, which I think is just bizarre. I'd love to get your thoughts on that, particularly as it pertains to the Chief Revenue Officer role today, which is changing. And it's what our whole focus is here. So thanks for being here.
Speaker 1:And those are the stuff I'd like to talk to you about a
Speaker 2:little bit, if you don't mind. Amazing. I'm excited. Great. Good.
Speaker 1:It's all yours.
Speaker 2:So quick intro to me. I'm Amy. I actually am a chief revenue officer. That's also a chief customer officer.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So I oversee kind of, what feels like kind of a hard, you know, silo between two organizations in most companies in my world is very much, you know, centered around the same concept of revenue, right, which is how do we differentiate, how do we extend our product differentiation to go to market? And oftentimes, that's more than just sales. So in my role, I oversee marketing, sales, customer success, solution engineering and consulting and professional services. And it's, you know, basically all of the different functions that impact, you know, a customer from when they first encounter us on our website or some other marketing, you know, channel to when they decide to renew on ongoing basis. And that's the kind of world that I live in, which is really to think about customer differentiation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Great.
Speaker 2:My a quick background on me is I started my career as a journalist and actually I didn't wasn't, you know, just a online journalist. I started my career in newspaper reporting. So back in the day when newspapers used to, like, get cranky at 7PM every night, I had a daily deadline, and I I basically entered my first job out of college writing for The Oregonian in Portland, Oregon. And I covered lots of different topics, but, you know, I started on general assignment, ended up covering education. And then in 02/2008, I was assigned to the business desk.
Speaker 2:And at the time, I was assigned to the business desk kicking and screaming because I was like, that team is full of, like, you know, all of this old stodgy, like, business reporters. Right? And, actually, it was the most interesting time because it was during the global, economic crisis of two thousand eight. And I was assigned to go and cover how the global financial crisis was impacting, you know, all the different rural communities in Oregon. I was assigned a photographer.
Speaker 2:We hit the road for a few months, and I realized at that point that the economy was fascinating and incredibly multifaceted and you know basically touched like every single aspect of a human know humanity. And at that point I decided to get my MBA. So I transitioned out of journalism after almost seven years of being a writer and went into to get my MBA at Wharton and out of that decided that I wanted to keep going So originally, I thought I'm gonna go back into publishing, and I'm gonna figure out, you know, this, like, incredible monumental decline of journalism and find a new business model. And, you know, we're going to find new new forms of advertising revenue. And then I realized that I couldn't do that unless I decided, you know, went and spent some time and, like, really cut my teeth in, like, consulting, which is basically an opportunity to work in every single industry, learn from, you know you know, basically, like, every single organ is you know, kind of function and role.
Speaker 2:And I ended up doing that and realized that I was gonna actually my there for a lot longer than I thought I was gonna be. So I was only intending to be in consulting for two years. I ended up there for over seven. And then from there, decided that I wasn't going back to journalism. I wanted to continue my track and really wanted to go early stage after, you know, over seven years and working with large enterprises decided to come to Mixpanel and I was hired to at Mixpanel to actually build the strategy operations function originally.
Speaker 2:And, you know, like a lot of early stage companies, I joined Mixpanel and quickly took over the people function. I'd never done anything in HR before. Took over the people function for three to four years loved it, you know, in the meantime also, you know, every time there was an executive who left, would run that function for some time. So I ran marketing for a short stint. I ran sales for a little while and then eventually a few years ago, our CEO said, you know what?
Speaker 2:You should just run this like revenue function. And so that's how my current role evolved. But it's kind of been a whiting journey. And if anything, you know, that's really defined that it's just been, you know, always being curious, always wanting to do new things, even if I don't know it well to begin with and striving to be in the top 5% once I get the opportunity to demonstrate that I can lead a function that I haven't worked in before.
Speaker 1:That's great. I love it. What's also cool too is you sort of naturally touched all these different pieces of the business. So by the time you were given the opportunity to do what you're doing, you sort of knew enough about how they all fit together, which the perspective that we have here is you I would say the way that you've described your role, the way you run the role is the sort of clearest, most perfect definition of the chief revenue officer role, which is the head of all revenue. Now this is, I think, fast becoming a much more common and understandable way of looking at the role, but the degree to which companies are adopting it that way still remains low.
Speaker 1:I'd say it's When I first started doing this, when I first created this business about six years ago, was like nobody was doing it like this. Think maybe like 1% of companies were doing it like this. Most of them ran sales, as you know. But it's evolved. And now I'm seeing the CRO role is frequently being described in the way that you did.
Speaker 1:I still see, however, incredible difficulty in companies actually knowing how to operationalize the role that way because of its oversight and its complexity and the ways in which it interrupts a lot of existing functions and things. A very strange way. So I'm just curious to know, what do you think it was about Mixpanel that had them recognize that that was needed and that they wanted to define it that way and that they're willing to make it work that way that might be different from companies whom you know, recognize the wisdom of that decision, but simply can't get out of their own way to make it work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So first of all, I'm a big believer that org design follows strategy and that if companies are willing to throw out the way most companies are organized, they would move a lot faster. And I and I'm you know, based on my experience in strategy, I can tell you that the number one critical lever that ensures success in your strategy is ensuring that your organizational design is aligned to that. It allows you to execute against it. So that's one thing.
Speaker 2:But the second thing I would say about this, which is, you know, first of all, all markets are crowded. But I believe that in mixed panels case, right, we are a digital analytics solution. We've been around for seventeen years. We've watched a tremendous amount of evolution in the data and analytics space, and we're competing against, you know, Adobe, Google Analytics. And the thing that really, I think, SaaS products have not fully figured out yet is that a big part of differentiation comes from actually go to market.
Speaker 2:So there's, you know, obviously product differentiation and in like, you know, kind of like the lexicons of the world world past. We used to call that hard differentiation and like, know, everything else is soft differentiation. But the reality of it is now is that especially with AI, like all products can be copied and products can be copied very, very quickly now. Right? Like you can basically go and like mimic a pop product you know in like record time.
Speaker 2:And I'm a big believer that that's no longer kind of the core sources of differentiation. The things that are very very hard to copy are usually things that revolve around relationships, trust, and that's a very human touch point and that's where go to market comes in. And you can build product stickiness with you know, kind of like, you know, your product roadmap and things like that. But you can't build the equivalent of a trusted relationship with your product without go to market. And there's many instances of which you can build a killer product and you can't sell it.
Speaker 2:And that's why you really need to be very, very thoughtful about what does go to market differentiation mean? How does it how does it feel to stand out in a really crowded SaaS market? You know, I can tell you, like, we sell to, CTOs and chief data officers and chief product officers, chief marketing officers. Those individuals are getting targeted by, like, hundreds of companies a day and even more with, like, you know, the kind of birth of all these new AI competitors. Right?
Speaker 2:So how do you stand out in that? How do you actually maintain, you know, a trusted relationship across many different procurement cycles, many different renewal, you know, renewal cycles really comes down to really understanding how you differentiate in your human touch points in a way that just strictly product you need product differentiation. But I would argue that you really also need to be very intentional about how do you differentiate on the go to market side where what your customer needs are very different from what your product can deliver.
Speaker 1:God. Thank you so much again for listening to the CRO spotlight podcast. This podcast is an important plank in the CRO collective communication strategy, and we're really thrilled to have such great guests on here. So listening and sharing the podcast with other people is really vital because we want to get as many people listening to this great stuff as possible. Couple things to note.
Speaker 1:If you're a aspiring CRO or a recently hired CRO or even a old salty CRO, and you're looking to either become a chief revenue officer or improve your chops and gain some more insights and improve your competencies as a chief revenue officer, we offer the CRO accelerator course. It's five years now. It's the first CRO focused course that was out there. It's a fifteen week course that is populated by aspiring chief revenue officers and CROs. We're pretty selective in terms of who can be a member of the CRO, accelerator course.
Speaker 1:It's, people whom are probably, like, more, like, ready to be a CRO right now. They have number of years under their belt as a revenue leader, whether it be a sales leader or a marketing leader or even RevOps leader, and they either want to move into the c suite or their CROs that want to just make sure that they win in the role. So if you are interested in being a member of the next cohort, please just write me a note on LinkedIn. Just DM me CRO accelerator, and I will set up a time to talk. And then I can send you more information to give you a brochure of course.
Speaker 1:So again, CRO accelerator course, fifteen week program for aspiring and newly hired CROs. Take advantage of it. It's been great, and you'll see some more information about it on the website. Thanks. I agree.
Speaker 1:A 100% correct. It's good news, I think, too. I think AI has sort of put a exclamation point on the importance of people. Right? I I think it happened beforehand.
Speaker 1:You know, I think AI was like most things, a response to something else. You know, I think that what we we occurred was we all know this. We went through just like I'd call it peak nonsense with the outbound, you know, automations and stuff even before AI. And I don't think any of us were even I mean, think we cannibalized our own audiences by treating them like shit and giving them ridiculous things to look at all the time and not speaking to them in any real, real meaningful way and hoping that personalization at scale and all this nonsense would actually make a difference. And we ultimately find out that what matters is what mattered twenty five years ago, which is people give a crap when you care about them.
Speaker 1:When they know you care about them, they'll respond to you. And you're right. I mean, that is the big differentiator in spaces that are commoditized. The difference is going be the way that you are the relationships that you have with the customers you have. It's always the case.
Speaker 1:And you're correct too. While companies could replicate, I mean, there's a lot of companies out there that do data analytics, Christ Almighty, that's a huge category. But there's not many of them that take care of their people or really know how to service their people properly or listen to them frankly. And I think that's the reason why people leave. Same reason why people leave companies.
Speaker 1:They leave their managers because the relationship with their manager isn't very good. It's been this way for, I don't know what, since we were born, right? However, I agree. What we're seeing now is a couple of things. I think that the combination of And I love what you said before about organizational structure should follow strategy 100%.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, it doesn't, mainly because if a company is being I'm jumping around here, but I want to respond to that. I think it's right. What's happening is you get a company that's being funded by like a PE firm, it's not to knock them. I understand they have a model, but they have a very specific way they want all these different companies to be run because that's the way that they run them. It's a model for them.
Speaker 1:It's a system for them. And it involves certain titles that are put in place in certain ways that can be managed a certain way. And if that's what they're accustomed to, breaking that is a very complex decision making process for them and they just rather not do it. And I think that the pressures that come from investment organizations tends to be the choking point for founders who don't have the voice to say, You know what? This doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:I don't want to run this way anymore. I want to run it this way. And you have to kind of sell in the idea of, Well, why wouldn't we have someone who is competent enough and a systems thinker and a builder to create a revenue leader that runs all these things as opposed to having a CCO, a CRO, a CSO, a CMO, a CFO? I mean, these leadership teams are Nothing gets done. Everyone has an opinion, everyone's right, right?
Speaker 1:And everyone's wrong at the same time. And then the decision that you make usually is some compromise to make certain people happy that has nothing to do with the customer whatsoever, or the business whatsoever. And it satisfies short term goals as opposed to long term ones. And so I'm seeing the way in which these things are impacting businesses. I just don't see it's great to hear you talk about this this way.
Speaker 1:Enough companies sort of being able to pivot quickly to make that change enough to accommodate that reality. They hope that maybe by fixing one of those functions, it'll sort of solve all their problems when in fact it really is, it requires a transformation of sorts. So again, I'm more curious to understand your opinion. Let's say you were talking to the people listen to this. These are people who are Chief Revenue Officers right now.
Speaker 1:They're probably not in your position. They probably run sales. Maybe they have some customer success. They have no control over marketing whatsoever. There's probably a CMO they report they work with.
Speaker 1:What's that person's opportunity to hopefully maybe bring about a change in the way management thinks so they can increase the scope of their influence over the larger picture? What would you kind of advise them to do in a case situation like that? Which is most of my clients are in that situation.
Speaker 2:I think I would ask them. I'd ask your listeners. I'd ask you. Like, what do you think the next frontier of competition is gonna be wasted upon? I have my opinion.
Speaker 2:Right? There's two fronts. One is customer differentiation, like I talked about. The second is speed. So we are all competing against digital AI companies that are gonna move way faster than we've ever imagined companies can do.
Speaker 2:Right? And the reality of it is is that number one, executives and silos. I bet you that if you looked at this, there'd be a direct correlation with how quickly a company could move based on how many executives they have.
Speaker 1:I there's no doubt about that. Absolutely. Yes. I would
Speaker 2:Alignment alignment is expensive. It it's an expensive in terms of time, effort, meetings, you know, and and, you know, like collaboration is expensive too. Right?
Speaker 1:Politically expensive as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think, you know, for CEOs, I think you really have to think about this moment that we're in, which is, you know, we all need to be moving much faster if we don't wanna be disrupted.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And that's that exists for, you know, nascent markets and industries and very established ones. Right? And I think that the most compelling, like, know, platform or burning, you know, case for change is that you you need to move, and you gotta move fast. And if you have too many executives who have too many fiefdoms and too many empires, which usually at some point, that's what it becomes. Yep.
Speaker 2:You won't get anything done. And, it's helpful to have somebody at, you know, that oversees that and can hire expertise into their organization. Right? Because it's there's always a tension between, like, expertise versus, you know, like, more general capabilities, like strategy and management and all of that. You have to decide what is the most important unifying principle you need to move as quickly as you can.
Speaker 2:I have seen in many companies because I worked in so many large enterprise companies, you know, at at BCG that they ended up they end up moving at this like snail's pace because they have too many silos, too many functions, you know, and what you really need is you need to unify an organization with one strategy, right, from the top, align all the different key levers and inputs into that strategy and move fast. So that would be my argument. Like, you know, if you sat me down with a CEO
Speaker 1:Yep. Sure.
Speaker 2:You know, I had to, like, explain, why would you think about making this, like, monumental shift? I would tell them that. I'd say the reality of it is is no company can move fast when there's too many executives at the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're, you create too much friction and too much, too many blocks in your ability to make decisions and get things done. You're placating too many egos. You're breaking down too many decision makers in one system. And I think that the old model is dying.
Speaker 1:And the problem I see with this is I agree with you on all these points. Matter of fact, it's like you work with me on this. So what we're trying to solve here is how do we get because it seems to me the problem, you just described it very well, it's very true. I'm a company now, I'm a 200,000,000 ARR company. That's a complex organization now and I've kind of built it up maybe utilizing old models.
Speaker 1:And I've got those functions and they're in there and they're embedded and they have comp plans and they have equity and all this stuff. How the hell do I re control that organization at this point? For a lot of companies that are at that stage, would you say, I don't think it's the case, but you could make the case that it's too late. I mean, if you can't really change that model out or swap that out, you're sort of stuck with a very heavy cumbersome organization that a smaller one can easily zip right past you and make just as much revenue as you are without as much OpEx, CapEx, right? So how do you do that?
Speaker 1:Like I'm the CRO of a company at $150,000,000 They have me have this title and we have all this complexity. Am I really going to go to the board and tell them that they need to go faster and get rid of people? Mean, I am I going be looked at like I'm some sort of like over taker? Even though I may be right, what's the way to communicate that without sounding like you're either crazy or who the hell are you to come in here and tell us to make changes like that? Are you going to be responsible for that stuff?
Speaker 1:It's a very complicated thing for a company that's evolved economically and operationally to make that switch. And this is, I think the challenge today is we have a lot of companies who are watching smaller companies that have ARR of $40,000,000 in three months, right? Growing right now. So just saying, see a problem with that. Let's call it like growth stage companies whom are probably faced with this reality.
Speaker 1:And they're sort of stuck in a way. You know, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, would say this, you know, for example, I have a sales organization. We have a lot very you know, sales is all about operations and execution. And you get you get higher conversion, higher win rate, higher lift when that sales organization, which is probably one of your most expensive investments, is tightly aligned with your strategy. Meaning like if you understand your customers' needs and you understand how you want to deliver differentiation every critical point of customer journey, that that sales organization is a major strategic driver of, like, that experience that you believe will inflect major differentiation.
Speaker 2:And you should see that in your outcome metrics when you talk about win rate and things like that. I still have a sales comp team. I still have these investments in place. The the main difference is that, you know, there's there's a vision. I have this framework that I I I always talk to my leadership team around, right, which is there's really six components of, like, driving a very efficient flywheel between strategy and execution.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You have to always have a very clear, highly aligned vision for what is it that you how are you gonna win? You know? Like, what is it that you're aiming for and how are you gonna win? And, like, what are the key levers of that that differentiation and your competitive advantage? The second thing is, like, how do you translate that to an actually strat strategic plan across all the different nodes that really drive that?
Speaker 2:So in revenue, right, there's a clear place for marketing. They must deliver brand awareness and pipeline, and the look and feel of every touch point needs to feel consistent with that. And then we have sales and their job is to basically take that, you know, brand awareness and pipeline and convert it as efficiently as possible and in the right tone. And, you know, like I talk about, like, the relationship tone, right? Like that has to feel very consistent.
Speaker 2:And then you have the handoff to the post sales team, the customer success team. So everything we sell to a customer has to feel like we can deliver on it and that we deliver it in the way that we best can. And those pieces need to feel like very tightly orchestrated, tightly aligned, or you base a lot of energy and effort on like basically trying to make sure that the customer understands who you are. That's what that's what GTM differentiation is. It's like you should you should know what Mixpanel stands for.
Speaker 2:In your first conversation, you should feel highly consistent. You know? And there's a big difference between being consistent and being cookie cutter. You know? We strive to basically basically be highly, you know, consistent in the way that we we go to market with our customers.
Speaker 2:One of those key pieces is the ability to advise and guide through complexity. So a lot of companies are mired in complexity and a simple decision on whether or not to buy Mixpanel or buy a different tool or invest it somewhere else can take, as you know, sales cycles could be over a year. And in that time frame, organizations have changed. People have gotten fired. People have gotten hired.
Speaker 2:And our job is to basically very, like, expertly advice through complexity at a very high level. Right? And navigate through change. Navigate help us navigate change and help our customers navigate change. That builds confidence.
Speaker 2:But that means that, like, every part of this organization needs to be able to understand how to navigate that, you know, from, like, the first conversation to the last conversation because that time frame could be very long for a customer. Every single moment needs to feel highly consistent. So I think about that as kind of, like, being the way you do this. And, yes, like, I do believe that you have to you have to kind of make the case for this. And one suggestion I have for people who are thinking about, like, what is the right, you know, org structure for a for my go to market organization?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I think you have to start first with, like, you know, like, what's the strategy that you wanna go and inflect? For us, we're big on a differentiated customer experience end to end. So differentiation means, like, being very clear about what is that experience, who do you stand for, what should it feel like at critical moments in the customer journey. There aren't just one moment. It's like multiple and most critical times.
Speaker 2:That means that those different teams need to be aligned to that. And it has to evolve because customer needs are constantly evolving. So how fast you can change and evolve in a very competitive environment also depends on making sure that you don't have to spend too much time aligning with, like, all these different functions, you know, because by the time you like execute at the long end of the tail, you're like two years away, three years away from like when you set the strategy. I can tell you like, you know, it wasn't that long ago that I was at BCG doing consulting work and we used to tell clients, you know, best practices you go and redefine your three year strategy. Know three years is an eternity now.
Speaker 1:It is. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, right? Like by the time you've like written your three year strategy and usually that takes ten months by the way, right? A ten month period is right, your three year strategy. You've already, you've got new competitors in the market, customers needs have completely changed.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Like we can't operate in that kind of cycle anymore, you know, like we'll all be in the dust.
Speaker 1:So it's finished. It's over unless you're like some massive enterprise that still works that way. But you know, you're right. I mean, if you're working way up to that, ideas of two, three year plans are insane to me. I just amazed that somebody would make a suggestion like that.
Speaker 1:It's like a three month plan or a six month plan at this point right now. And you should be able to do it, you know? And you have to, you know, I agree with this. That's an interesting point I wanted to talk to you about, which is so you look at like, you had an opportunity to work at a very prominent and well established consulting firm that has embedded incredible amount of competency into the marketplace. In fact, a lot of other programs mimic BCG's programs.
Speaker 1:How do they work today? And what do you think the future of these large scale consulting firms are when when they work on these, let's say, a bit antiquated modalities? I mean, they're smart people. They should be able to turn these things around. I'm just curious what you think, like the Baines, BCGs, the Accenture's, the world.
Speaker 1:What what's gonna happen with them? Thanks again for listening to the CRO spotlight podcast. We're excited about all the great guests we have. And more importantly, we're excited mostly about you for being avid listeners and supporting the work that we do here. Feel free, please, to share the CRO spotlight podcast with any of your colleagues.
Speaker 1:We just think there's a great wealth of information here, and we wanna get the word out to as many people as possible, and your your support of the show is really appreciated. I wanted to share information about a program that we offer called the CRO Masters Council. The CRO Masters Council is a bimonthly group of six season Chief Revenue Officers who are looking for a Chief Revenue Officer Board of Directors, so to speak, that they could share what's going on with them, collaborate with ideas, get some feedback on what's going on in their current role. And these are great conversations. I facilitate them.
Speaker 1:The CRO Masters Councils, again, they're twice a month, and they last for at least six months to a year. So if you're interested in having your own CRO suite, your own board directors of Chief Revenue Officers, it's a private, confidential conversation that we have. It's infinitely useful. Imagine having a room full of other Chief Revenue Officers you can talk to and say, Hey, I'm working on this, or Have you guys figured that out? I'm having this issue right now with my business or my results.
Speaker 1:These are just invaluable conversations with Chief Revenue Officers. Chief Revenue Officers have a very, very unique role. It's a very lonely job, and only other CROs understand what you're going through. So that's why we created this program. So if you're interested in being a member of the next CRO Masters Council, which we have a number of them being put together right now, just go to my LinkedIn and, DM me, masters or Masters Council, and I'll follow-up with you and set up a call or send you some more information about it.
Speaker 1:Looking forward to seeing you there, and thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, I can tell you that from my experience at BCG so my last two years at BCG, I was, basically oversaw at one of the startups at BCG called Gamma, and it was the data science consulting startup. And, you know, that that startup was wildly successful. It's actually, you know, been obviously, like, you know, transitioned into being, like, a major pillar of BCG's success, and that is really around specialization and expertise. So it's it's you know, for example, like, number of topics that large companies need expert outside expertise on have really exploded. Right?
Speaker 2:You know? So, like, nowadays, there's, like, you know, everyone's looking for their AI strategy. You know? So I think that's an ongoing reality for a lot of companies is you need you know, the technology landscape is changing, the market landscape is changing, customer needs are changing dramatically. You need experts who can actually come in with a view on not just your specific industry, but how is this unfolding across all different industries and really distill and consolidate those insights so that you know what it means for your specific company.
Speaker 2:I think there's always gonna be a need for that, especially, like, at the leading edge of, like, change. So effect effectively, you know, all consulting firms are there to help navigate change and also help to actually orchestrate it. And one thing that I think I'm a big believer of in at at Mixpanel is that I'm actually leading an ongoing strategic transformation effort. That's the way I think about my role. You know, there we're in a constant transformation and being able to do that is actually a muscle.
Speaker 2:And a lot of companies don't know how to do it for themselves because they're stuck in too many silos. There's too many people not talking to each other. You need some higher level strategy and orchestration. That's, like, huge for the external consulting firms because they can come in, break through all of the organizational dynamics, get to everybody they need to get to, and, like, rewire the company. Right?
Speaker 2:And that's kind of the way I think about my role too, which is I'm leading an ongoing strategic transformation effort here, and that requires this constant state of strategy and adaptation, execution, and change management. That those things are constantly ongoing. But most companies can't operate, you know, like that because there's, you know, there's too many different stakeholders, functions. And I think that's always gonna exist, to be
Speaker 1:honest, Warren. There's some some athletes, though. I I, know, I don't know. I think that we'll eventually work our way out of this. I think these old management models are that they're going to go away.
Speaker 1:I don't think they're just going to work anymore. I think what's going to happen is attrition will happen where companies that continue to hold on to these old models are just not going to work. They're not going to go fast enough. They're not going to survive. And smaller companies that have more nimble models will just emerge.
Speaker 1:I think that's going to happen more as an evolution of things. I do. I just think it's the way it works. It's like any other evolutionary model, you know. Fins, fast people can get away from the grizzly bear, you know, and they survive, you know.
Speaker 1:It's the way it works, you know. And so I think there is that, you know, and do believe that it will happen. I don't know if it'll be as intentional, although I do see a couple things. There's generational issues, right? Younger people are starting companies now with a different perspective, new relationships, technology and innovation.
Speaker 1:They don't have any encumbrance with these older models of thinking. They think the way they look at the world today with fresh eyes and they do things what they're supposed to do. They work with a lot less people, get things done faster, and they build their organizations that way. When And they get older, they're going to continue to carry that. So there is a generational issue.
Speaker 1:Right? I mean, you know, I'm looking, you know, I'm admittedly older here, you know. So I can't help but always have to try and shed some old thinking that I have because it's there. You know, it just doesn't just disappear. So the only way I can do that is like you, I think we're similar in that weirdly, I also started out in newspaper space too.
Speaker 1:It's another story. And so, you know, I kind of had to be very curious all the time about everything I was doing to kind of reinvent things all the time or else I'd sort of just be left like some dinosaur, you know? And I don't want to be one. I'm excited about this sort of stuff and I really fascinated by it. But you know, unfortunately, organizations aren't people.
Speaker 1:Organizations aren't curious. People are curious, you know? And if you create an organization, if the leader is not a curious person and runs it that way, the organization isn't just going to suddenly become kind of interested in becoming more nimble. They're going to continue to trot along. So this is an interesting other thing I wanted to ask you about because now the other problem I see happening with the issues that you and I are talking about is you're a CRO, you have a couple of things that you have to deal with.
Speaker 1:You mentioned, you talked about it very nicely and articulate this very eloquently about this idea of being in a constant state of transition, which is transformation, which is brilliant. At the same time too, you have goals to hit, right? You've got quarterly numbers, you've got someone breathing down your neck, they want the numbers hit, want they the business to grow. I know you guys just got a big infusion of cash. You didn't get that because you were sitting around thinking about things.
Speaker 1:You got it because you performed. How do you do the short term and the long term at the same time without one conflicting the other? That's a very complicated problem I see a lot of CROs have today.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. You know, I I don't think about them as being two different lenses to approach, you know, my role, the company's goals, and, you know, the the outcomes I'm trying to drive. My approach is that there is long term, and then there's things you have to do short term to get you to the long term. And and that with enough time, you can strategize to understand how those things line up. And the the optimal, you know, the optimal strategy equation for anybody in my role is that they thought deeply about the long term of what they're trying to drive to, and they can tie that back to all those things they have to do on the short term.
Speaker 2:And then, yes, I have quarterly revenue goals. Sure. You know, there is a component of like, what do you have to do short term to hit that hit that target? And if you study it for a few quarters, you know that about 20% of bandwidth or capacity, meaning like in any of my functions, 20% of it needs to be reserved for short term unexpected or like short term gaps that need to be filled. And then you can plan for like, but 80% should be long term.
Speaker 2:Right? So, like, part of it is just setting expectations. Like, 80% of our strategy and our work really builds for its long term executives. That typically is true for most revenue leaders, by the way. Like, you have to be thinking two, three, four quarters out, right?
Speaker 2:And so 80% of my time is spent thinking about two, three, four quarters out and beyond. And I say beyond because in my role, my organization plays a big role in helping to surface the customer needs that our product team needs to address over the medium and long term. So we work very closely with the product team. And, you know, any voice of the customer type of synthesis, you know, usually comes from my organization because we're spending the most time talking to customers every day. And then 20% of my effort is spent on near term, you know, kind of like short term objectives.
Speaker 2:And if I will say this. If I miss a revenue target in one quarter, it's not because I didn't execute well in the last twelve weeks. It's because I didn't execute well three quarters ago.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So everything is actually medium to long term if you really think about it that way. And the only thing I need to worry about is executing well in the 20% that I've reserved for this quarter. But if there's any reason why I'm gonna miss it means that I would have seen it two quarters ago. So I like it's a
Speaker 1:I get it. I totally understand. You're creating a much more predictable model where you're able to see something coming down the road a lot sooner than a lot of companies when things seem like sort of like a surprise, because they don't have an organization that's set up both strategically and tactically. And, you know, you have another advantage, if I may say, and that is that your company is obviously one that is being built to last and to have like longevity and leadership in your space, right? Or else you wouldn't be around for seventeen years.
Speaker 1:I mean, a lot of my clients are working at companies that their objective is to be bought in three years. That's a completely different strategy now. It's almost a short term strategy really, and I had a job like this is ironically the job that I had that actually got me to start this business was I was put in a situation where I had that sort of conundrum. I was hired to help a company turn themselves be bought in three years. And I understand that.
Speaker 1:I understand that business model. But there is no 80% long term in that business. There's only it's 100% short term in that business. And the pressure on someone in that model, they're like screw strategy. That's gonna take too long for us to implement.
Speaker 1:We can't think out that long. You need to close business this month. I need you to get customer sign this month regardless of X, Y, and Z. Even if you might be right about the customer experience, frankly, it's not germane to the way that we want this business to end up or the liquidity path that we have on this thing. And a lot of companies are in that situation.
Speaker 1:They're not in a situation where they have the time to say, you know what, we believe we see an opportunity to be the industry leader. We're okay with that taking twenty years because we think it's worth it. That's frankly an amazing place to work because you know you're with company who is going to give you the resources to think that way. It's not the case a lot. And I think that's another question is whether or not what the future holds for both the short term turnaround business and the longer term strategic business and the way that they're going to play a role today in the marketplace.
Speaker 1:And I tend to think even though it's easier to build a company that can maybe grow fast and get some funding fast, I don't think that's what customers want. I think customers want companies that are going be around for a while. If they're going to invest in them, they want to know that there's like some sort of like you're going to be around, continue to evolve and help me in my way in which you help me right now. Not disappear in two years and get bought by who knows who, and then I gotta change. I do think that that's a issue.
Speaker 1:And I think that customers are tired of feeling like the company I bought, just made a credit card payment to every month is suddenly gonna change. And I do, I don't know. I mean, what your thoughts are on this? But I do think like the SaaS model, was built on companies flipping quickly, right? And being bought quickly, which made a lot of people a lot of money.
Speaker 1:I don't think customers give a shit anymore. They're like, who cares about your plans? What about my plans? Help me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Five
Speaker 1:years from now. So anyway, this is fascinating stuff. I want to ask you about something, which is AI. You already mentioned it. We talk about it all the time.
Speaker 1:It's sort of boring. But this recent MIT study came out a couple of weeks ago that said something that I think made sense. That is a lot of this stuff is nonsense. Operationally, it's not really working as well as people said. Promises of these things really creating the sort of efficiencies that people make don't really work.
Speaker 1:Most of these things get implemented. There's downstream issues that these things, they can't get implemented. There's a lot of operational complexity for things to get done. A lot of the things that people talk about are done in like sort of like a little bit of a petri dish where they work in the experiment phase, but they get into the company, they've met with all sorts of like last mile issues. And I think people are maybe recalibrating what it is stuff really is gonna do.
Speaker 1:And I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Hey, everyone. I wanna thank you again for listening. Get great comments across LinkedIn and other channels about the show, and it's really gratifying to see that we're having an impact on you. Another thing I wanted to let everybody know is that we also produce events.
Speaker 1:About two and a half years ago, we started the CRO roundtables predicated on the idea that well, two premises. One is, CROs are looking for other CROs to talk to, which is really true. It's a very lonely job. How do we get a bunch of CROs in a room where they're not being, let's say, disintermediated by panel discussions and sponsorship events and demos and stuff, and really give them a chance to talk to each other. So we created a roundtable event that essentially that it's a three and a half, four hour discussion between between twenty and thirty chief revenue officers.
Speaker 1:And these are amazing events. The format took off people love them. And I get requests all the time as to when when is your next year event. To that end, I want to just let you all know that we have a roundup of them coming over the next number of months over the remainder of the year. The next one is in Boston on August 20.
Speaker 1:Following that, have two events in September in San Francisco, one on September 16, which is a dinner, and then we have another roundtable in San Francisco on the seventeenth. And then we're gonna have one in New York in October, probably mid to late October. And then I have one in November in Chicago, November 18. So if anyone is interested in attending any of these events, if you're a chief revenue officer working for a company over 150 to 200 people in your in your organization, just send me a DM on LinkedIn and ask me about which event, and I'll provide you with either the information or the links. But again, it's August 20 in Boston, '2 in September on September, New York in October, late October, and then again in November in Chicago.
Speaker 1:So sign up for the CRO roundtables. They're amazing events, I hope to see you there.
Speaker 2:Interesting. I believe that there are going to be some short term, you know, interim periods in which, like, the transformation is gonna feel challenging. Like, any transformation effort, you know, the the initial kind of, like, you know, like, change feels more challenging to adopt. But I think there's massive potential in AI. Like, it's I I don't know about you, but it's dramatically changed the way I work.
Speaker 1:Well, me about that. How much In what way, what are you doing with it that works for you right now? Like, what are the things that you're doing that now that you do them this the question is, but I wanna frame it a certain way. Stuff that you're using AI for that you now couldn't do without.
Speaker 2:Great example is, you know, we have historically always send out, you know, this engagement survey. It's it's top of mind for me. So I used to lead people. Actually, that was one of the most fundamental career opportunities I had, if I'm to be honest, that really changed the way I think about how to lead effective organizations because I and I've learned so intimately in that role, the importance of building like a strong foundation for culture is, like, the number one thing you do when you even, like, even in go to market, especially where there's, like, you know, humans, like, you know, that's kind of our core product didn't go to market. And so we do our engagement survey at Mixpanel on a regular basis, And I used to have to operationalize that engagement survey, and I would take me, like, several days to analyze all of the results.
Speaker 2:You know, we get, like, 1,500 comments in because that's the kind of company we are, right, where everyone has a chance to kind of give input. And this weekend, I uploaded this dataset into Gemini. We use Gemini. Good. And I literally analyzed it in seconds, you know, and could pull out, you know, themes and quotes and all those things.
Speaker 2:So that's one one thing. But if you replicate that, you know, in, like, many different other areas of go to market, you know, similarly, we used to spend a lot of time our account managers used to spend a lot of time building out these account plans. So every single revenue leader will know it. You know? This is like a core activity of sales.
Speaker 2:Yep. Knowing who your customer is and what their business is doing with the core trends are and how you can more clearly articulate your value proposition in an environment of like change for this company. Right?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:We do all of that with AI now. It's constantly fresh, constantly up to date. None of these big cycles of, like, having to update the account plans before we go into a QBR. Right? Which would, by the way, require twenty hours of work from an individual.
Speaker 1:For sure. Yep.
Speaker 2:So, like, the reality is is that we can strategize on a much faster cadence because the baseline knowledge, which typically requires a lot of business context is always fresh. Yep. You know? And at the end of the day, like, I I use AI in a way that basically facilitates there's there's things that AI can't do for you. Right?
Speaker 2:And this is like kind of a core pillar of, like, McPhillips value proposition. AI cannot help leaders make decisions, and it can't make ICs make decisions. And it can't help you execute, you know, and act on the things that you believe are the right things to do. But it can help you do all of the things you need to be able to do in order to make a good decision. And, like, you know, the best companies basically make only good decisions.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Don't waste time on any bad decisions. Right? Or fail fast.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:AI can help you observe the context of the market you're working in or the industry or the client you're working in, understand exactly what the core outcomes should be, right, for this company. What does good look like? What are the main levers or blockers from keeping them, you know, any company from getting to good? What is the data that supports that? And basically can tee you up so you can make as many decisions as possible.
Speaker 2:And I will tell you this, Warren, if you ask me, like, how is AI helping you? It's created decision velocity for me.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I can make 10 times the decisions I need to make as a leader than I used to because AI has unbottlenecked all these things. And I used account plans as an example, and I use engagement survey as an example. But if you think about it from a customer lens, right, my team, all the different people who touch my any one customer at Mixpanel, of which there's many different roles because they've all played different roles, spends way less time getting aligned on the context and the background of a customer because it's always fresh, way less work on the research and, you know, kind of analysis part. And we get together, we can make decisions. That's what people humans can uniquely do that AI can't do.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And myself as a leader. Right? Like, even just like I gave this example as the engagement survey because we're a company that deeply believes about, like, in police and culture. And it's like, I can I can get the results on a Thursday and be ready to come to work on Monday and be like, these are the decisions I'm gonna make today that are gonna double down on making us even a more, you know, like, a more competitive, like, place to
Speaker 1:work? Mhmm. Yeah, I get it. I agree. I think that you're right.
Speaker 1:I think you find these tools solve the things that happen in between of human decision making. They make it faster. There's no doubt. I mean, I see that for myself, right? So I get that I can analyze data quicker, right?
Speaker 1:I can tease out aspects of it that are relevant to me a lot faster. I can look at something and extrapolate meaning from a lot of complexity quicker. No question about that. If it's right, I mean, I've seen it sometimes, it's wrong, but you know how that is another whole thing. I think it's getting better.
Speaker 1:And I think it's like those little last mile things that we have to do in our business, right? Are the edge cases that we have to solve, right? That are, you know, that we have people doing little things that we have to do because we need people to do them that we probably can get them done a lot faster without those things. But I don't think it's going to replace someone being able to make human decision making in a sales call or know how to think about like how they heard something and be able to respond to it the right way. It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1:And I hope it doesn't happen. That would be really screwy and weird. We still need to be kind of listening to each other. And there's a weird way that our brains and the way our biology looks at each other, and we can see that we're thinking and we can sort of roll a little response. You walk away from a conversation, you're like, I don't think she liked me.
Speaker 1:So what do you mean? It's like, I could just kind of tell. I don't know. She didn't say she hates my guts. I just kind of could tell, you know.
Speaker 1:And that's something that we possess these things. They're embedded in our thing. And I think, you know, if we try and replace that stuff, I think we're in trouble. And the other thing I also think too, everything you and I talked about are very specific. It's research, analysis, right?
Speaker 1:Data crunching. But then when we get into complex multi things, I don't know if it's possible for something to do like four things at the same time. You know, like we can do multitasking things in our brains and I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see us relying that much on this. It'll be able to drive or do the dishes or cook the food, right?
Speaker 1:But to run the kitchen, I mean, I probably would need a bunch of different platforms to run a kitchen, you know? So what I'm saying is I think that I'm seeing a lot of promises of these like future things. And what it really is, is speed, right? Computative, qualitative analysis speed, getting to the truth of something faster, decision making quicker, right? And we don't have brains that can do that.
Speaker 1:We need a machine to do that. And I think that's interesting. So I'm just saying I have a lot of people whom I work with and myself included, I've experimented with this stuff, purchasing some of these new fangled stuff that's on LinkedIn or in X that we talk about. I did this thing and it got me seven leads in four hours and I closed two deals. And you look at it and it's like that didn't do that.
Speaker 1:That would never, it took me, it would take me like a month to get this thing set up. And you didn't account for seven things about my business that are probably not the same for your business. And so, we have to be careful of the voodoo ishness of some of the way in which this stuff is being promulgated. And the other thing too is a lot of people are making these massive hiring decisions about this stuff. They're firing people or they're hiring different kinds of people.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. I look at a company like yours around for seventeen years, you have a lot of muscle memory around what works. How do you navigate making decisions around what Like you said, for example, you use Gemini. Why? Why not at ChatGPT?
Speaker 1:Like, how did you come to that decision to use that tool instead of another one? That that's a perfect example of what I'm decision making. Like, how do you work through the morass of these things?
Speaker 2:Well, to answer Gemini versus ChatGPT, I mean, obviously, privacy and security. So it's all within our enterprise system. And then we also have ChatGPT, though I could use ChatGPT too. Though, interestingly, you actually realize when you play with these tools that they're good at different things. You know?
Speaker 1:That's for sure.
Speaker 2:There's no doubt. You know, you you kind of like so anyway, we have licenses with each of these and but it just depends on what, you know, you're using them for. But to respond to your earlier question on, like, how do you how do you fundamentally, you know, kind of like, you know, the technology and what it's really good for and leverage it quickly. Right? And and the most important thing is building the muscle to iterate and learn constantly.
Speaker 2:Right? So I think scaling AI in organization requires you to understand what is it best used for and what is it not going to replace fundamentally given the technology it is today. And the more you're you have clarity around that, the less time you spend, you know, experimenting with something that's truly not gonna work for your organization. And I would say, like, you know, like, if you're if you're if you're doing your role as a CRO well and you really understand, like, what are the pieces that are highly differentiating that shouldn't be replaced by anything like, you know, robotic or AI based and what are the things that are like, you know, kind of like should require a lot less energy for you to kind of continue to deliver that experience. You could approach it with a very strategic lens.
Speaker 2:Right? And like kind of almost like put that put these things into different boxes. So I'm a big believer and I tell my team this all the time that there's like five things that are core to our differentiation as organization. One of them you said, Warren, which is number one is listen. I mean, really listen.
Speaker 2:Listening is a skill. Not everyone has it.
Speaker 1:Sure. A completely agree there.
Speaker 2:The way it translate and go to market is, you know, the customer shouldn't really need to tell us things twice. You heard it, you listen to it, you play it back. That's, like, really important. It's also what makes journalists great. Right?
Speaker 2:You have to learn, like, the spoken and unspoken context, and that is actually a skill that I want my salespeople to have so you can pick up on nuance. The second thing is the ability to build trust and and rapport. So rapport is interesting. Like, how would you argue? Like, what is, like, rapport?
Speaker 2:The how would you break that down into something that's a bit of, like
Speaker 1:You you can't. It's not zeros and ones. Rapport is an organic thing that you just know is there, and you both agree it's there, but I can't recreate it for other in a in a machine. It's just it's rapport. Right.
Speaker 1:Relatedness. You know, you talk to someone, you're like, wow. I really feel connected to that person. Like, I'm sorry. AI is not gonna have that realization.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. And the third thing is something you said, which is like, there's all this complexity. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's right. There's so much complexity in the world. So many complexity in organizations and decisions to be made. And humans have the ability to advise in complexity. And especially the fourth thing would be adapt creatively in real time.
Speaker 2:That's like a uniquely human attribute that all relationships need. It's like, can you adapt to, what's happening in this moment and this change and advise and guide to complexity in real time?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Right? You know, no time to train models for that in a real life interaction. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 2:And the fifth thing, which I believe will always persist is the ability to to navigate organizational dynamics. So, you know, we we all need to be able to understand whether small organizations, a three person team, a two person team, there's always organizational dynamics. 5,000, 20,000, you know, 60,000 organization. Navigating organizational dynamics is something that because it requires empathy and emotional, you know, kind of context, all these things, like, those aren't things that humans do best.
Speaker 1:Yep. Or worst, depending upon who is doing it.
Speaker 2:Depending on who it is. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right. Which is interesting, right? Because the humans can be either the worst thing or the best thing. You know, it's just crazy in that way because I agree.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think my opinion, I think everything is emotional and psychological, everything. And so for me, it's like I'm constantly looking at the lens of that is that's it. That's the whole other, like frankly, that's like the common lowest denominator for every single thing, no matter what's going on is, I talk to this, my clients all the time. Honestly, I say to them at the end of the whole thing, what really comes down to is how do they feel at the end of the conversation? That's it.
Speaker 1:How do they feel? And if you understand that, you're going to get a lot better results than whether you gave the right information or whether it made sense or all those things are true, but how do they feel? Do they feel like they were listened to? Do they feel like they trust you? Do they feel confident?
Speaker 1:Do they feel like secure? Do they feel safe? Great. Are they confused? Are they like annoyed?
Speaker 1:Not great. Manage that and you can manage most things. But it's just not That's a skill. It's not an easy thing to find people that know how to do that. I could tell you know how to do that.
Speaker 1:I believe I can do that. But that's just I don't know why. I mean, why could I draw? I don't know. I was just that's what happens.
Speaker 1:I don't know. These are magical, weird things that I don't think these things are ever going to replace. And I think the job of a leader in today's world, aside from knowing how to pick technologies, is knowing how to hire the right people that know how to do these things. That's where you're going to win across the board, in my opinion. Finding those kind of people and bringing them into your company because these are going to be skills that are going to be coveted.
Speaker 1:They're to make the biggest difference. All the technology in the world, if people can listen and understand and communicate and connect, you got a lot going for you. So anyway, I appreciate this. You and I could probably talk for another half an hour. I know you have a lot to live.
Speaker 1:So I want you to get back to it. But I want to know what do you want tell everybody about you and Mixpanel and what's going on? Is that Anything you want from my audience? You're looking for contact with them? Who's your audience?
Speaker 1:Who are speaking to? Who are trying to influence today?
Speaker 2:We're help like, our primary mission, Mixpanel's primary mission is to enable leaders to make good decisions again. Make no bad decisions make only good ones and you'll move faster and you will that's the ultimate outcome everyone's driving to and that's also my passion right is make it make good decisions, support everyone in doing that. And to the extent that, you know, I can support your community, I'd love to I'd love to help. And I also love learning from other CROs because everybody has a different business. And, you know, if you anybody out there wants to talk about strategy differentiation or any of those things, it's always, always great to learn from other folks.
Speaker 1:Okay. And what market do you what do you work out? Where do you work out of physically? What's what's your office right now?
Speaker 2:We are a global organization.
Speaker 1:Yourself? Where you situated
Speaker 2:I'm these based in San Francisco.
Speaker 1:Got you. Very cool. Yeah. All right. Well, I mean, look, I'm having two events in San Francisco in September.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 1:Two CRO roundtable events of mine. One is the sixteenth and one is the seventeenth and you're welcome to come to either one. I'll send you information. We can talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd love to.
Speaker 1:They're great events and you'll be love it. I mean, they're great conversations. They're like this but with 25 people. They're great. It's really cool.
Speaker 1:So I will share more information with you and thanks for the opportunity for me to plug it because anyone in the San Francisco market that wants to come to an amazing event, there's two of them, one sixteenth, one seventeenth in San Francisco. You can DM me on LinkedIn and Amy, I'd love you to come. And thanks for coming here today. This was great. I learned a lot from you, and I appreciate your time and your expertise.
Speaker 2:Great. Thank you so much. Can come back again.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the CRO spotlight podcast. The CRO Collective's mission is to help CROs succeed and help founders and CEOs build CRO ready organizations. You can find out more information about our services at the thecrocollective.com. That's thecrocollective.com. And we look forward to having you join us next time.