Future of XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:27:19
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this sorta Valentine's Day edition of Future of XYZ, couple of days late. With us today talking about the future of pleasure is Ti Chang. She's an industrial designer and the co-founder and creative director of CRAVE, which is what we'll be talking about a lot today, which is CRAVE and pleasure and all those things.
00:00:27:19 - 00:00:30:20
Speaker 1
Ti, thanks so much for joining us on Future of XYZ.
00:00:30:22 - 00:00:34:04
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here.
00:00:34:06 - 00:01:06:08
Speaker 1
Well, I'm really glad that we're able to do this. You you're kind of a pioneer is really how it's seen, I think, in the world getting awards for design and everything else of of kind of the pleasure jewelry category, if you will. And you say to bring dignity and beauty to pleasure. So in the context of our conversation today, I'd love you to just define what is pleasure.
00:01:06:09 - 00:01:35:03
Speaker 2
So in the context of this conversation, pleasure is about sensual pleasure, is about intimacy. There are a lot of things that can bring one pleasure, obviously, outside of the bedroom, outside intimacy. But for this conversation, it's about the things that makes you feel good. And as an industrial designer, I've been doing products for a long time, and this was an area that is just so fascinating to me.
00:01:35:05 - 00:01:48:14
Speaker 2
I've been doing this for about 17 years, actually, 15 for CRAVE, and I couldn't understand why it was so hard to have both beauty and dignity in pleasure, so...
00:01:50:12 - 00:02:28:23
Speaker 1
I appreciate that definition. I mean, and coming back to your design chops, which we're going to talk about quite a lot, I mean, you have a Bachelors of Science from from Georgia Tech. You have an M.A. from the Royal College of Art in London. You obviously, like, you know, have this very, very high education level in design, and yet you chose to kind of go into this world, which if we think about, you know, Valentine's Day and, you know, millions of people, maybe tens or hundreds of millions of people around the world like to celebrate Valentine's Day, as they did just a couple of days ago.
00:02:29:00 - 00:02:49:07
Speaker 1
There's this kind of understanding that there is a relationship between romance and pleasure. I mean, I know CRAVE its which you can find at lovecrave.com, but your products which I also think you're wearing some of. I mean this is your biggest season so what is that relationship between romance pleasure intimacy and all of this.
00:02:49:09 - 00:03:12:18
Speaker 2
Link between all of those things. It can be with another person, with partner or partners and or simply just yourself. I mean, romancing is not something that someone has to do to you. You can romance yourself. You can take yourself on a date. You can buy yourself flowers, like Miley Cyrus says, it is a way of celebrating yourself.
00:03:12:20 - 00:03:36:23
Speaker 2
And I think the kinds of products that we create at CRAVE and the kind of products I'm interested in designing are things that are both giftable so it can be exchanged between people, but also you can just simply treat yourself. Yes, when it comes to pleasure jewelry, it's a it's a category I created. I mean, it's been 15 years.
00:03:36:23 - 00:03:59:05
Speaker 2
We've been doing this for a long time. It's not really been done before. And when people think about it, it's like, you know, what is it? You know, pleasure jewelry, You know, these are things that adorn you. But they also have a deeper meaning and they're also functional. And so depending on the person they are, they can they can use it however they wish.
00:03:59:05 - 00:04:17:01
Speaker 2
And there's no right or wrong way or a way that you must use it. And I think that is kind of the beauty of what we create, and that's the beauty of pleasure. I mean, when it comes down to it is that pleasure is different for everyone. And it's a common misconception that people want to know, like, what's the best vibrator?
00:04:17:03 - 00:04:35:11
Speaker 2
What is the number one thing? What is like, you know, what is the normal way or the normal number of times people should have sex and, you know, doing this for as long as I have, I've talked to a lot of intimacy experts and talk to sexologists. There is no one answer.
00:04:35:13 - 00:04:37:09
Speaker 1
There’s no right way, quote unquote.
00:04:37:10 - 00:04:55:04
Speaker 2
Right. Exactly. There is no right answer because we are, you know, as a society, we're so taught in thinking about these things and kind of black and white. And and the beauty of this is just there is whatever is right for you is what's right.
00:04:55:06 - 00:05:22:06
Speaker 1
You created, as you said, this category. And I'm curious not only how pleasure became your focus, which obviously was a gap in the market, but in 2014 you created this very iconic Vesper vibrator necklace. And on your website, when I look up, CRAVE, you know, you describe a pleasure product company that's redefining intimacy through high design and fine craftsmanship.
00:05:22:08 - 00:05:29:12
Speaker 1
Explain this connection between design and pleasure and then how you kind of got into this.
00:05:29:14 - 00:05:57:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, between design and pleasure, because pleasure is this emotional experience that is unfortunately in our current society, it's not particularly welcome. I mean, obviously we all experience it, but in so many areas this is censored, this is deemed taboo. People still feel that stigma. I mean, it's getting better and better. Social media has made has made that conversation much more accessible.
00:05:57:10 - 00:06:18:10
Speaker 2
But for the most part, it is just not dinner table conversation. I'm not saying it must be, but we need to be able to feel comfortable to talk about it because it is something that will impact all of our lives. And in design, design is something, as you know, is something that we apply to experiences that we value as human beings.
00:06:18:10 - 00:06:50:16
Speaker 2
Like, if we love coffee, we value transportation, we have gorgeous automotive design, we have great consumer appliances. These are things we apply design to because it's meaningful to our lives and because the subject of pleasure not just for women but for men as well. It has been deemed so taboo because of the society we live in, we don't apply that same type of thinking and skillset to that area and just it's just so far and few in between.
00:06:50:16 - 00:07:03:23
Speaker 2
And it's even more rare for a female industrial designer like myself to think that this is important and this is a worthy topic to work on. So that is kind of hopefully giving you a little of an answer on that. Yeah.
00:07:04:00 - 00:07:20:00
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And it's a huge market. I mean, I'm curious always about the business side of where we are because we obviously are going to spend most of this conversation and talking about where the future of pleasure is going. But as it stands in 2024, I found an estimate of almost...
00:07:20:00 - 00:07:20:23
Speaker 2
It’s 2025.
00:07:21:00 - 00:08:00:00
Speaker 1
Exactly, but the 2024 numbers were like 37 and a half billion dollars, right. For the global sex toy market, where the U.S. is like almost a third of that, you know, with like, you know, the growth is almost 9% expected between like 2025 and 2030. Based on those numbers. Like, is is this sex toys industry? Is that is that the pleasure industry or is actually like our is that even just like a small, tiny fraction of what one could more broadly call either the sex industry or the pleasure industry.
00:08:00:02 - 00:08:20:24
Speaker 2
I mean, honestly, I think based on those numbers, I mean, first of all, this is a private market. So all of these numbers are just guesstimates, right? And based on those numbers, I would say the what we call pleasure products. I think sex toys, I mean, I think it's a vernacular term, but for the most part, even people in the industry, they call them call ourselves like pleasure professionals or pleasure products.
00:08:21:01 - 00:08:45:04
Speaker 2
It is a subset of that. And so I don't think that the actual toy market is actually that big. Sure. It's definitely has it has been growing for many, many years. But for the most part, people tend to think pleasure products as like this huge like gold rush, like, you just have to like, start a company and then like, you're just going to be rolling in dough.
00:08:45:04 - 00:09:03:10
Speaker 2
But no, it's not like you don't get into this industry because you want to get rich. I think that's actually true of all in that you shouldn't do something just because you think you want to get rich. But, but, but a lot of times when people talk about sex industry that encompass is so much more that I have nothing to do with.
00:09:03:15 - 00:09:24:20
Speaker 2
I mean, my daily life is not that exciting. We don't have porn stars walking through our offices, you know, because a huge part of that market is, you know, Cam girls, you know, pornography, you know, various like entertainment that has is completely and very different from actual product like pleasure products. Yeah, there are some overlap here and there.
00:09:24:20 - 00:09:25:12
Speaker 2
Yes, for sure.
00:09:25:15 - 00:09:43:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean that mark that data just to say was with statistics and it's it was specifically for global sex toys. So I'm curious, but I also think, you know, one of the other things that came up in the research that I did is that over three quarters of the purchases of sex toys are done by women. Right.
00:09:43:24 - 00:10:14:00
Speaker 1
Which is so fascinating to me with vibrators actually being the largest segment of this quote unquote, sex toys segment. And on your website for CRAVE, it talks about how you create emotional experiences through products that honor the female perspective. And you talk about blending art, activism and design. I'd love you to talk about that a little bit, because I think that there is something really meaningful and in the mix of those numbers, plus with what you at CRAVE are trying to do.
00:10:14:02 - 00:10:42:18
Speaker 2
I mean, like you said, there is a huge market for vibrators, but what has been happening is that when it comes to vibrators, they are products that are often designed, created by men, marketed at women. Okay. That's a very different thing. I mean, we've seen this across many, many other industries, as we know, because industrial design is heavily male dominated and very rare to find female industrial designers and even fewer that willing to work on this problem.
00:10:42:20 - 00:11:08:22
Speaker 2
It's getting better now for sure. And so with with that, yes, vibrators for women have been a very large segment, but a lot of it hasn't been a great experience. A lot of it. I mean, it's only I think in in the last five years, we stopped seeing vibrator packaging with like scantily clad women that are very much designed for the male gaze.
00:11:08:24 - 00:11:38:16
Speaker 2
But it's just a very different conversation now. Now you have much cleaner product, more palpable shapes. And I think all of that has to do with just influx of more demand and more women, more talent and more serious folks coming into this saying, hey, this is an important human experience and we should make it better with design. So that maybe that gives a little context of like there's a difference between what has been happening and, you know, what we see now.
00:11:38:22 - 00:11:56:23
Speaker 2
But what I add to it is that, I mean, because I think what we make, like we don't make basic vibrators. I mean, if someone wants a basic like something that works, I mean, they can come to us, but really they're going to buy some cheaper plastic thing, you know, whatever. Okay, which is fine, you know, if that works for you
00:11:56:23 - 00:12:15:19
Speaker 2
that works for you, you know, And I think what I do is that I, I very much value beauty and the esthetic experience. And I think like any designer, we think about tactility. You think about, you know, the actual like the whole flow of just when you see the product, how you use it, how you store it, how you how it lives in your life.
00:12:15:19 - 00:13:03:17
Speaker 2
And for me, jewelry is something it's a it's a way of celebrating yourself. It's a way. It's it's also like a form of product that people feel something when they're given a jewelry piece. You know, you're delighted when you're opening a jewelry box, you know, And so for me, that is an emotional experience, that it's one of those things that it is very hard to it is very hard to sell that until you actually have that product, because I've also I've often said that if I walked up to an investor and be like, Hey, I want to put vibrators on a necklace, they would be like, Stop, I'm gonna stop you right there.
00:13:03:19 - 00:13:36:17
Speaker 2
But it's one of those things that we as humans, we buy our emotional experience. And and when we see something that, like I'm wearing some of the pieces, it's delightful. You want, you're curious. And I think that's kind of the magic of what we do is that we bring an elevated experience that not only is it functional, but it has so many other ways of experiencing it than just a plain old vibrator, which it still works just as that, you know, it's USB rechargeable is waterproof, it's all these different things.
00:13:36:17 - 00:13:57:23
Speaker 2
But I'm just going to hold up a few of our products, like it just doesn't look in a way that you would feel off put it by. You know like if you leave this on your bedside, no one would think really much of it. And that seemed like such a subtle detail, but it's an emotional part of an experience that you have with a product.
00:13:58:01 - 00:14:18:05
Speaker 1
Well, and that's and that's the entire luxury, which is where I started my career in luxury and fashion. And it's the entire luxury industry's promise, which is that emotional promise and that an emotional connection to what the thing is that you're buying, whether it's the brand or the design esthetic or, you know, kind of the sense of elevation that it gives.
00:14:18:07 - 00:14:40:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. And also I think with luxury is that there's a promise of craftsmanship. And that's actually something that we don't, I think we don't say enough about because when it comes to vibrators, on the whole, the cheapest thing out there are always these plastic, you know, things wrapped in like rubbery, you know, kind of, you know, alien shapes.
00:14:40:09 - 00:15:11:02
Speaker 2
But for us, ever since I started, we started creating products with CRAVE. It's all always about metal. We use surgical stainless steel, we use PVD plating, we used material of value and of longevity so that we want a product that not only is something that's enduring, but you're also cherished as well. And you don't get that if you have a lightweight like rattly, you know, plastic product, you know our product that this one, the reason why they're so quiet, there's a sort of weight to it.
00:15:11:04 - 00:15:28:23
Speaker 2
So yeah, that's part of the luxury promises is not just but it is also how it feels, how it is esthetic, but it's also when you use it like that feeling of quality is just really rare to to to have these days because I think there's so much shit that's created for social media and it's like misleading.
00:15:29:01 - 00:15:56:09
Speaker 1
And cheaper is better. I mean, that's the that's the world somehow that we've we've created, which is of course, high waste. I mean, you've been not only have you been granted a number of accolades and awards as an industrial designer at CRAVE, but I mean, you as creative director at CRAVE have done collaborations with brands. Speaking of luxury, like Saint Laurent, but also with mass brands like Gap and Nordstrom and Ulta Beauty.
00:15:56:09 - 00:16:23:21
Speaker 1
Right. And I'm just curious, you started by talking about in the U.S. especially, but not exclusively, there are plenty of cultures in the world that still find sex and pleasure, especially when we're talking about female pleasure very taboo. And I'm curious, you know, kind of as you do these collabs with big international brands or big U.S. national retailers such as Ulta or Nordstrom or Gap, you know, what is the
00:16:23:23 - 00:16:30:20
Speaker 2
Sorry, we don't we didn't do anything with Gap. I'm sorry. sorry, Sorry. Goop. Yes.
00:16:30:22 - 00:16:52:02
Speaker 1
Not the Gap with Goop. You're like. No, not with the Gap with Goop. But I mean, I think what's so interesting about all of those collabs is like elevating this, you know, conversation around pleasure and taking it into the mainstream culture. Like, what does your feeling about like your role in doing that and CRAVE’s roles more specifically?
00:16:52:04 - 00:17:33:03
Speaker 2
I think this conversation has been happening for a long time and I just feel like we are one of the brands that are creating objects that is helping to support that conversation, to move even forward even faster into the mainstream. Because when it comes to pleasure, the biggest killer of pleasure is shame. And shame thrives in darkness. And that is why conversation is so important and that's one of the reasons why our products are so magical, because it can create conversations wherever you go and because of the form it makes people feel like so much more at ease.
00:17:33:03 - 00:17:53:24
Speaker 2
They feel delighted. They feel curious versus you see this like, you know, 12 inch dildo and you're like, you know, for some people it's kind of like, Whoa, you know, I'm not ready for this. But when you have something beautiful and lovely, it's a much more easier way to engage in a conversation about pleasure and open up to what you want.
00:17:54:01 - 00:18:28:02
Speaker 2
Because the thing I think I just want to say about pleasure is that people don't think about pleasure as self-expression. That is actually something that I think with jewelry it really helps to bring together because the thing is, if you feel comfortable saying what you want and you are expressive and what your needs are, whether it's in the not just in the bedroom, but like in the workplace, you know, with your friends, with your partner, that translates to what happens in the bedroom.
00:18:28:04 - 00:18:31:22
Speaker 2
You know, And it seems. Yeah. And that's selfish.
00:18:31:24 - 00:19:01:01
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, Ti. I'm just curious, like, historically, we feel as we're looking ahead, I mean, we're here now in 2025, which in some ways, yes, the conversation is moving forward. And in some ways, you know, historically, we're still stuck and I wonder, as you're looking at where we are today and where we're going, like what a what are the cultural shifts that you see happening in this conversation around pleasure?
00:19:01:05 - 00:19:07:08
Speaker 1
And also, how do you find the industry kind of meeting the changing needs and norms?
00:19:07:10 - 00:19:40:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, when it comes to this industry, it's I was recently on a sex tech panel and I was the only woman on like an eight people other than moderator was a female. And we were talking about what's happening in this industry and the dominant conversation was is around how technology is driving sex tech. You know, and to be honest, the there is a place for sex tech. There is a place for technology to drive certain things.
00:19:40:24 - 00:20:03:11
Speaker 2
And currently the current state is that most of that technology is designed for men. Okay? Because there's actually a demand for it. There are these like masturbators and things like that that like that, you know, VR experiences. There's just a need for that. Unfortunately, we're not seeing that same market desire for women, you know, it's just it's just not there.
00:20:03:11 - 00:20:34:00
Speaker 2
But it's not to say we wouldn't design, you know, not us. But I just think I'm not saying that technology will go there. But yeah, I think though for women, I think that we are more about meaningful experiences, meaningful, emotional. We don't want a gazillion buttons and interfaces just because, you know, we can and stuff the word A.I. into things just because it's the buzzword and the latest trend, you know, like it's about how does it actually make you feel and how does it meaningfully alter your life.
00:20:34:00 - 00:20:37:04
Speaker 1
And connect to pleasure.
00:20:37:06 - 00:21:13:09
Speaker 2
Right until it connect yourself to pleasure. Because when you have beautiful things, you you feel that this is a worthy experience. And if something for yourself, for your own pleasure, you can't find anything beautiful that's well-made for you, you start to think, well, maybe what I want is, you know, like, I shouldn't be thinking about this. And I think that is a horrible message, you know, just because we've lacked the audacity to make better products, you know, for something that's so important to the human experience, I'm just fascinated with, like as a designer, I'm just really fascinated.
00:21:13:09 - 00:21:29:21
Speaker 2
And generally topics that have to do with like collective human experience, like sex, death. And anyway, I can run and on about that. But like, but yeah, like the technology I think for the future is about meaningful emotional experiences.
00:21:29:23 - 00:21:46:08
Speaker 1
Which is so ironic because it's somehow also what technology stripped away. So we're now going to use technology to reinsert this into what is probably the most animalistic and primal of the human experience, which is, you know, pleasure and sex.
00:21:46:10 - 00:22:15:22
Speaker 2
And I think we're going to be like, inundated with so much technology. But I am hoping, hoping that the people who's wielding the technology have the emotional intelligence to think about what it means for the actual users and for the customers that are experiencing this and not just create something because they can just shove AI into it or whatever the latest buzzwords you know are.
00:22:15:22 - 00:22:36:05
Speaker 2
Because as designers, we see that all the time. And I just hope that with A.I., because it's going to enable so much more efficiency in how we work and operate, it's about curating the right things and the meaningful things that we should be making all our lives.
00:22:36:07 - 00:22:55:16
Speaker 1
My I mean, I totally agree with all of that, and I appreciate that perspective. I think it's largely what we try to do at iF Design as well is, you know, who presents this, this podcast is is trying to make sure that obviously the best of design that has some impact, positive impact is also elevated. We're getting towards the end.
00:22:55:16 - 00:23:27:01
Speaker 1
But I am curious about something you talked about, which you know, is about technology. And as the world has moved into a more digital space and that digital norm, we've seen a massive rise in kind of what we call online pleasure seekers. Do you think that there's a difference in both meaning as well as in outcomes of what we'll kind of like virtual pleasure versus IRL pleasure?
00:23:27:03 - 00:23:50:00
Speaker 2
This is a that's a good one because we, we don't make any connected devices. Yeah. And I think everywhere I think different strokes for different folks that's what I, I think there is always something for everyone and there are some things that it's not going to be great to you, but it's going to be someone's, you know, yum you know, so don't yuck like someone else's yum.
00:23:50:02 - 00:24:06:24
Speaker 2
So I think that is going to be a really exciting territory. I think that's super cool. I think if we and where I choose to design, you know, does it create products in it, we would make sure that it has a deeper meaning and it has a reason to exist. Yeah.
00:24:07:01 - 00:24:24:02
Speaker 1
Yeha. And as we think about kind of you know helping our listeners and viewers on Future of XYZ explore this topic more deeply, the future of pleasure. Are there any resources or references, Ti, that you'd like to throw out there that you think are really exceptional on this topic?
00:24:24:04 - 00:24:56:17
Speaker 2
I love the book, The Creative App by Rick Rubin. I think this is an important book because in many ways I think design should become more artful. That means design should incorporate much more emotions in how we create things. And this book really, really helps you to break out of like, I'm just a designer and the things I make have to be X, Y, or Z, but it's that it breaks out of it.
00:24:56:19 - 00:25:22:21
Speaker 2
It puts you in the frame of like, I'm a creative and what I do needs to resonate with me first, and it will resonate with other people. And I think I will. I personally want to see the future of pleasure and more products to resonate with people in that way. From from the Soul. I want to see more creators creating from things that they are just burning like with a burning desire to see in the world, because that's the kind of stuff that's just going to be so much more exciting.
00:25:23:02 - 00:25:48:18
Speaker 2
So that's one. Another book. I would say Sex by the School of Life. These days with so much, so much negativity, so much chaos in the world, I find solace in philosophy. And the School of Life is just this organization that brings both East and Western philosophy together. And they have little short books on various topics.
00:25:48:20 - 00:26:15:23
Speaker 2
Sex is one of them, and I highly encourage people to to just check it out. And I mean, one last one. I mean, if you're really into like the industrial design and you want to see objects and products, there's a great one called the Objects of Desire by Rita Orrell and it just, you know, is as it's a few years old, but it gives you a little snapshot of some of the best industrial designs and like interesting things that are out there in pleasure products.
00:26:16:00 - 00:26:40:17
Speaker 1
I love that. Those are great references. And I have to say, Rick Rubin’s book is one of my favorite, so I love that. And I'll check out the others and make sure that those are all in the show notes for people to look at. Ti, last question. What's your greatest hope for the future of pleasure? If you look, say, 25 years out, which would get us to 2050.
00:26:40:19 - 00:27:00:23
Speaker 2
My greatest hope for pleasure is that it is no longer considered a taboo topic because as an entrepreneur, creating a new category of products like this is one of the things I don't think about. I put this product out there, I put pleasure jewelry out there because I wanted to see it in the world because I would wear it.
00:27:00:23 - 00:27:22:24
Speaker 2
I wanted something like this. But when one thinks I didn't realize is that when you create something new, you have to show the world like what it means to you, you know, how do you engage with this product? What does it mean? Why do you need it? You know, there's a whole education going on and it took, it's taking us, you know, ten years, over ten years, and I've been doing it for 15 years.
00:27:23:03 - 00:27:54:00
Speaker 2
So takes a long time. But then on top of that, we found people who love our products. But the biggest issue is that we can't market to them because of puritanical rules by social media that are supposedly now they're regressive now because we're not allowed to talk about and use certain words on any of the platforms. So these are things that I hope by then, and it must be sooner that we need to stop treating pleasure as such.
00:27:54:02 - 00:28:17:23
Speaker 2
A as a vice. Yeah. Yeah. So that that's my greatest hope because it is hard enough doing what what I do. I mean, just trying to, you know, be an entrepreneur and create a product out there that you hope that resonates with people, but even have a just gate after a gate of not being able to market to people to talk about it and be censored like it's like a whole thing.
00:28:17:23 - 00:28:21:17
Speaker 2
I could I could have another podcast episode just talking about.
00:28:21:19 - 00:28:47:12
Speaker 1
I have no doubt that's true. And I can imagine it's incredibly frustrating when you’re doing all the things that you are doing and that, you know, I really appreciate your sharing with us on on Future of XYZ today, because it is a really interesting topic that affects actually 100% of the people on this planet, which makes for a market segment that is an addressable market that is pretty much everyone, which is pretty unique.
00:28:48:19 - 00:29:08:18
Speaker 1
Well, Ti Chang, found co-founder and creative director of CRAVE Pleasure Jewelry, lovecrave.com is the website for everyone wanting to check it out. Valentine's Day is past but every day, as you said, you can give yourself pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today.
00:29:08:20 - 00:29:11:15
Speaker 2
Thank you so much, Lisa. It was great chatting with you.
00:29:11:17 - 00:29:29:24
Speaker 1
And for everyone watching and listening, make sure that you leave a five star review and follow us on social media so you can learn about future pleasure and all sorts of other topics every other Thursday. Thank you. And we will see you in two weeks. Thanks again, Ti.