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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.846)
Welcome everybody to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here for our very special episode because today I am joined by not one but five awesome coaches who come along today. They've all volunteered, loosely volunteered. And when I put out the call to say, I really want to have a conversation with more than one guest who are all courageous coaches.
part of my courageous coaching community. Let's get together, let's have a conversation and let's see what happens. So none of us have any idea what's gonna happen today. So let's roll with it and see what happens. So first of all, let's just hear from everyone so we can get everyone's voices in the room. So welcome Donna, good to have you here.
Amy Wilkinson (00:40.615)
Thank
Donna Ward-Higgs (00:52.591)
Good morning!
Melissa Hague (00:54.784)
And Amy is with us and Catherine.
Amy Wilkinson (00:56.732)
Hello!
Kathryn (01:00.488)
Hello listeners.
Amy Wilkinson (01:02.568)
you
Melissa Hague (01:02.638)
and Jane and Gail. Hello, hello, hello everybody. And as you all know, I am Melissa. It's so good to have you all here and to do this little experiment with me. And we're gonna see how it goes. I have to admit to being a little bit nervous about doing this episode, because this feels like a lot, right? Five people.
Jane Gilham (01:04.463)
Good morning.
Gayle Tong (01:06.95)
Hello.
Melissa Hague (01:27.128)
trying to host five people, trying to make this a good episode for our listeners. So I'm gonna let all of that perfectionism and doing it right. And I'm gonna let all of that go and just breathe and let's see what happens. So one of the things that's really important to me about the work I do with Courageous Coaches is creating community, right? Creating a space for people to come together and be on their...
courage building journeys, share that courage building journey with each other because it's not easy. It's really hard work. And when we are being courageous, we're feeling and we're feeling vulnerable and all of those things are coming up for us comparison and shame and scarcity. What also comes up for us is that we think we're on our own. We think we're alone in all of that. And so the community for me is about helping
me and the people in my community to not feel alone and to have people that they can come together with to share you know their successes their challenges and all of all everything in between. So today we're going to talk about community so the first thing I'm really really kind of want to kick off with is what do we mean by that word right what is community so what does community mean to mean to us
particularly in the context of courageous coaching. And so I'm going to fire some questions and pick some people to start kick us off. So Gail, let me come to you first. What does community mean to you in the context of courageous coaching?
Amy Wilkinson (03:01.351)
you
Gayle Tong (03:11.954)
I had a feeling you'd come to me first. I was sat here thinking, don't come to me first. Don't come to me first. I should have closed my door because then you could see them behind me. Yeah. No, I've got a Zoom wardrobe on. Let's not do that. Although this isn't Zoom, other recording platforms are available. What, sorry, Melissa. So what, what does community mean to me in the, I was thinking about this actually, and was thinking that this community that you've created around courageous coaching isn't a
Kathryn (03:14.366)
Okay.
Amy Wilkinson (03:16.551)
I
Donna Ward-Higgs (03:18.139)
Get them brave pants on, girl.
Jane Gilham (03:22.361)
Stand up.
Amy Wilkinson (03:23.687)
you
Kathryn (03:27.05)
you
Amy Wilkinson (03:29.959)
you
Gayle Tong (03:41.69)
It's not an in your face community. And I really like that. And what I mean by that is that this community of coaches, I know at any point I could drop any one of these ladies a message and guys that were on the, on the, the course that we originally did and they'd respond and they'd come back with something that was valid, that was worthwhile, that was encouraging, that was everything I needed in that moment. So I feel like whilst it is a community, it's not a community that is
in a WhatsApp group that's going off every five minutes that actually nobody really wants to be a part of. Yeah, exactly that. We were talking about that earlier this morning at something else. So yeah, I think it's a community that I know that everybody's kind of in the background doing their own thing, but when we come together, we're quite powerful.
Amy Wilkinson (04:16.197)
Hehehehehe
Donna Ward-Higgs (04:18.426)
MUTE!
Melissa Hague (04:34.638)
I love that. I love that. Yeah, the dreaded WhatsApp group pings every five minutes, drives you mad, seems lovely idea, but then in the end you mute it, don't you? And then you can't leave because it tells everyone, doesn't it? Melissa has left the group, which just feels rude. So yeah, totally get that. Totally get that. Thank you, Gail. And Catherine, what about for you? What does community mean to you in the context of courageous coaching?
Kathryn (04:35.016)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (04:45.679)
Yeah
Kathryn (04:52.532)
you
Kathryn (05:03.528)
And so I was thinking about this question earlier and I think possibly community is a little bit different for me than everybody else in the group because I think I'm right in saying I'm the only internal coach. So everybody else, you all have your own businesses. Some of you have your own podcasts. So for me, think community is, I was thinking about it almost in ripples.
So it kind of ebbs and flows between the different communities that I'm part of. But all communities have one thing in common, which is people. That's what, that's people make up communities, isn't it? And I think, like Gail said, that's where you get your connection, your support, your challenge, you know, all of those things. Communities about, I think, and there's probably a psychological term for it I should know it because I am doing a psychology masters at the moment.
I don't know because it's gone out of my head, but that, you feel that too, or you've got that problem too, you know, or, and even though they might not be able to necessarily solve your problem, because that's obviously not what coaching's about, but yeah, having that kind of connected community and just being able to feel supported. So I think, you know, for me, I've got communities within the organization I work for, I work in the NHS.
Amy Wilkinson (06:02.759)
you
Kathryn (06:26.76)
I've got a fantastic network that's very supportive. I've got external NHS connections and I've got the wider community, you guys, LinkedIn. know, there's actually, there's ripples and ripples that kind of ebb and flow, I think, for me, where I get my support. And also I think it's around inspiring others, isn't it? So wanting to inspire people as well as being inspired.
Melissa Hague (06:50.7)
love that idea of ebb and flow because I know that's something that's true for me with community is that sometimes I'm kind of like all in and sometimes I'm really not. And so I think that's such an important part of community that can use that language, Catherine, like ebb and flow in and out as they need to. Yeah, lovely. Jane, what about for you? What does this idea of community mean for you on your own courage building journey?
Kathryn (07:02.442)
Hmm.
Jane Gilham (07:17.273)
So just had one of those ick moments when you were talking about WhatsApp groups. And I belong to a WhatsApp group, which I probably am going to leave and I'm not going to feel bad about that. But that makes me feel wholly inadequate, that group, because there's not context. It's just what people put in it. And I think for our community, we've all met, we've all been in each other's company. And that's like an invisible cloak for me, I think.
Melissa Hague (07:21.017)
Ha ha!
Kathryn (07:21.684)
Hahaha!
Amy Wilkinson (07:28.551)
Thank
Jane Gilham (07:46.179)
that's wrapped around me because it allows us just to be ourselves. But overarchingly, it is totally unjudged. There's no judgment. And I know that's a term, but you just, there is no sense of that. And in the two that we've been to, or I've been to, there's none of that, none of it. And I find that really difficult to find anywhere else. Anywhere else.
Donna Ward-Higgs (07:56.923)
Thank
Kathryn (08:12.841)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (08:13.794)
Yeah, that makes my heart sing, right? Because non-judgment is super hard. you know, Jane, know, there are gatherings, Jane's talking about our two, well, we've had two face-to-face gatherings now, all of, you you've all been part of one or both of those, to be fair. And yeah, it's rare, isn't it? That group of people where there isn't any judgment, there isn't a need to perform or to be anything other than
Amy Wilkinson (08:16.999)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (08:42.218)
what you are in that moment. And the other thing that strikes me as well is that I didn't curate that, right? I didn't, I don't know, do something that made or certainly not consciously do something that made that happen. So the other thing I love about community is that it's absolutely the people
Amy Wilkinson (09:02.181)
Yeah, I can see, I can see don't- and I wanted to do the same!
Donna Ward-Higgs (09:03.286)
Sorry, I'm going to challenge that. I didn't do anything consciously to create those conditions.
Kathryn (09:07.303)
Hahaha!
Amy Wilkinson (09:13.761)
using your 25 years of experience or whatever it is of creating psychological safe spaces and you know making it just amazing for all of us at finding the best venue ever creating different exercises to help us open up you know you didn't do any of that. We just turned up.
Jane Gilham (09:20.227)
Yeah.
Kathryn (09:27.178)
Mmm.
Kathryn (09:31.255)
huh.
Donna Ward-Higgs (09:32.474)
She did nothing, did she? No, we just rocked up randomly!
Kathryn (09:35.498)
Hehehehehe
Melissa Hague (09:38.798)
Okay.
Jane Gilham (09:39.087)
I'm sure all of you, I am in awe of Melissa. Equally, I am in awe of all of you. But you have, I have that in awe of, but without feeling I'm nearly swore I'm not good enough. There is none of that. Yeah. So.
Amy Wilkinson (09:43.324)
Mmm.
Kathryn (09:44.306)
Yes, yes.
Kathryn (09:55.201)
Amy Wilkinson (09:55.269)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:56.664)
Yeah.
Donna Ward-Higgs (09:57.741)
It really makes me think of how Melissa opened this podcast, talking about feeling nervous, not sure what to expect. Like, let's get a bit of coach speaking, bit of a parallel process. When I rocked up to my first gathering this year, I was really nervous. Took all of my energy not to swear then Jane, I'm feeling your pain. Like it's when you join a community, particularly one
that already has some established members. There's that really natural playground fear, like will I fit? Will they like me? How do I edge myself in? Like all of those worries that run around our heads. And I think when I rocked up to your beautiful venue, all of that fear, all of that excitement,
Kathryn (10:34.228)
Bye!
Amy Wilkinson (10:35.815)
Mm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (10:56.266)
But when I walked through that door, there was like, really felt your cloak analogy, Jane. There was like a, I'm okay. This is safe. These people are good. I feel like I belong. I feel like I want to be here. And there's something I'm going to gain from all of the elements that are here in this space for me.
Kathryn (11:02.058)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (11:24.526)
I feel the need to just say that or to clarify what I love about the community is that it isn't hard for me, right? So you're right, of course there was effort and I put, I, know, trying to create the right environment and all of that, but it doesn't feel hard to do that. It's a very kind of natural space. And I think
Donna, you're right, that sense of these are my people, I'm okay here, I'm safe here, right? And because we're doing the work around courage and vulnerability, do you know what, if something doesn't quite work or I don't quite get that bit right or lunch isn't quite on time or none of that matters, right? None of that matters. Whereas quite often when we're in a facilitative space, it's kind of can be about performance.
Amy Wilkinson (12:14.279)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (12:21.77)
Amy, I want to come to you just because I know I haven't yet around this idea of community and courageous coaching. What would you add?
Amy Wilkinson (12:29.893)
Well, I mean, a lot of what everybody has said already, but I think for me, I think for me, what has been so important is, you know, for a lot of us that have come out of the corporate world, you come into the coaching community and they're like, generally people are lovely if they've become coaches, because, you know, we're wanting to help other people and stuff like that. But there is tribes within tribes, isn't there?
And I think there's something about finding those right kinds of people because I found coming out of the industry I'd always worked in, nobody kind of got what I did. know, all of my friends were still in the grind and all of that. So it's that finding those people that get it. But just like you said, the ones that you feel safe with. I have a thing, I've told you about this before, Melissa.
I have a thing and it's a chip on my own shoulder. probably need to do some work on it and all of that. But I have a thing about coaches who have, have all their qualifications as a badge of honor and the, snobbery that can go on in the coaching community. That's like, I'm PCC, MCC, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,
And what I love about this community and what is important to me for community is that ability to be real and down to earth and be yourself and basically be courageous without all of that frou-frou. So I think that's about finding your people, isn't it? That's, you know, but yeah, I can't stand, like there's some...
Kathryn (14:09.169)
And...
Amy Wilkinson (14:13.497)
like coaching, networking things and stuff that I have turned up to and just thought, do not fit in here because I swear, because I dare to say things a little bit differently because when people are talking about exponential something coaching that I've never heard of or some, you know, amazing model, I'm like, my God, I'm going to stop now Melissa, because some of those people might be listening.
Donna Ward-Higgs (14:38.734)
haha
Kathryn (14:42.474)
you
Amy Wilkinson (14:42.993)
But I've definitely gone down the rabbit hole of what I don't like in a community. And I guess what I'm saying is I love the flip side and I love the fact that everyone else in this studio now is all laughing at what I'm saying because they get it.
Melissa Hague (14:46.455)
Yeah.
Kathryn (14:54.474)
You
Donna Ward-Higgs (14:56.948)
that difference is that we start from the place of being human, not being coaches. Like coaching is something we have in common, absolutely. It's an approach, it's a philosophy, it's almost a way of life, isn't it? Like how many people in your day-to-day life go, don't do that bloody coaching thing too much, stop yourself. But we don't start from that, right, let's come together as coaches.
Amy Wilkinson (15:00.629)
Mmm. Yeah.
Kathryn (15:02.122)
Hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (15:16.59)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Amy Wilkinson (15:22.183)
Mm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (15:22.562)
I think one of the things you've done really beautifully, Melissa, we start from the point of being human.
Amy Wilkinson (15:28.551)
Mm.
Kathryn (15:29.31)
Yeah.
Gayle Tong (15:30.502)
I think for me, sorry.
Melissa Hague (15:31.758)
Oh, sorry, I was gonna say I've got to come to Gail because Gail, you and I have talked about this a lot. I know before, right, this kind of love hate relationship with coaching communities and what's good about them and what's not good about them. So I just feel like there's probably something you'd like to add.
Gayle Tong (15:49.008)
Yeah, I mean, similar to Amy and Amy, you and I had a conversation over the dinner table about coaching snobbery. And, you know, I've, I have stepped away from some of the coaching groups because there was something I went to a while ago and it just ended up in like a model off, you know, like I, I use this model. and I'll raise you this model. And I was just like, my God, what am I even doing here? and there are some things that I
Amy Wilkinson (16:03.057)
You
Kathryn (16:09.162)
Thank
Amy Wilkinson (16:09.703)
you
Gayle Tong (16:13.338)
I go to and think, and then I start to question myself, right? So then the comparisonitis becomes real. And I've said to you, Melissa, before that in this group, in this community, I never have comparisonitis. It just isn't there. So thank you to all you ladies for that. But that can be quite big for me, particularly in the company of...
coaches that do exactly what Amy has just said. And I better stop because yes, you're quite right. Amy, there might be people that are listening to this, but you're right. You know, it's this human thing. And I was on something the other day with Claire Pedrick, who I absolutely love and the human thing. And she actually talked about her coaching book that was simplifying human, simplifying coaching, isn't it? And she said that when she, she's rewriting it because she's read it back and gone, my God, I was writing to all the coaching gods.
Amy Wilkinson (16:43.431)
You
Kathryn (16:47.882)
you
Gayle Tong (17:09.874)
And actually I don't even like it. And so now I'm rewriting it because it has to come from this human place. So yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (17:11.175)
Mm. Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (17:16.327)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (17:16.95)
Yeah, I love this idea of human first, right, when we talk about community, because I suspect that doesn't just apply to coaching communities, right, there are many communities that I'm probably part of, or am part of, not just professionally, but personally as well, where I could probably do with a bit more of human first, rather than, you know, badge or
Kathryn (17:18.75)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (17:40.615)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (17:44.034)
performance or this is how I should be showing up. So yeah, I like this idea of human first. And I think that that's probably missing generally from well, from many things, but from coaching, right? We're humans first before we're coaches. Yeah, lovely. I really like that. okay, so.
What I'm wondering about then is this idea that, you know, you've all been through the program with me and then came to the gathering. So you arrived at that gathering already and you know, not just the gathering, others, if you put up circle backs, you know, all of those kinds of things that we've done, you're kind of rocked up already having an understanding of
what it means to be human, right? Courage, vulnerability, comparison, Gail, you mentioned, you know, all of those things, shame, perfectionism, you know, all of that, you kind of had done or were doing, none of us had done, doing the work, right? And so I'm wondering now, is that part of what creates that, that created the conditions
for the gathering, i.e. you'd already done the work, you were on the journey, you were all on the journey together. I wonder if you hadn't been through the programme and you'd just come along to a gathering for coaches or coaching retreat or something like that. I wonder if it'd be different. So I'm curious about other maybe gatherings or retreat type things that you've been on with coaches. Have they felt same, different? I'm curious.
Well, first of all, who's been on other retreats with with coaches or gatherings with coaches before? Yeah. Okay. All right. Donna, let's come to you and then maybe we can build from there.
Donna Ward-Higgs (19:40.955)
Well, I'm kind of sitting with what you said because it wasn't a linear journey. So I did your program and there was a, I couldn't make your first gathering, which I was gutted about, but it meant there was like 18 months, nearly two years between doing the program and rocking up to the gathering. And so that's not to say that the work didn't continue, but it wasn't fresh in my mind at the point of arrival.
And if anything, in some ways, I wonder if that added to the nervousness, right? This has been a little while. Do I remember everything? What are we going to go back to? Should I have bought my homework? All of those silly, solid questions that we ask. Going back to going to other gatherings. So you and I attended Theresa Wilson's shadow work.
retreat weekend. She similarly created a very, very magical space. And I think what was what's in common across those experiences is that human first approach. This doesn't need to be perfect. In fact, there's no there's no kind of blueprint for how it should or might look. It's your journey.
it's for you to put in and take out whatever works for you. So I wonder as I say that out loud, if there's something in that openness to co-create the experience and allow the experience to be yours, whatever that looks like, knowing there's a part that's shared with the group that's there, but there will always be a part that's personal just to you.
Melissa Hague (21:33.944)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (21:33.96)
And I think there's something in all of that for you, Melissa, in that you have done the work or are doing the work because that in itself takes a lot of courage to be able to go, actually it might get, and particularly because you're...
Kathryn (21:34.122)
Thank
Amy Wilkinson (21:49.232)
honest and vulnerable and tell us what's going on for you rather than just standing at the front pretending to be perfect. We all know that you will be having that going on in your head. But what if we're, particularly when you've had years of facilitation behind you where you're like, no, we've got to finish on this time and we've got to do this and we've got to do that. That actually you're demonstrating that vulnerability and courage just by doing.
Melissa Hague (21:55.884)
Yes.
Amy Wilkinson (22:18.073)
and creating the space that you are. But you wouldn't be able to do that if you hadn't done the work either.
Kathryn (22:19.914)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (22:19.928)
Yeah.
No, absolutely. And, you know, that makes me think as well, about this whole idea of courage is contagious, right? And, you know, we, I often talk about having, you know, we need to role model this for our clients. If we're courageous, then our clients catch it. And actually, that's the same for me, although I don't think of you as clients necessarily, I wouldn't use that language, but it's the same kind of principle, right? If I'm...
Amy Wilkinson (22:31.259)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (22:45.521)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (22:49.048)
courageous and vulnerable and open and honest, then that gives everyone else in the room permission to do the same. And yeah, you catch it, it's contagious. And I think that I've been on, not just as a coach, but I've been on many trainings and retreats and gatherings and all of those things over the years, I'm sure as you all have where the...
person who is at the front of the room. Well, for a start, they're at the front of the room. But, you know, they set the tone, right? So how they introduce themselves, you know, hi, I'm Melissa Hague, I am a chartered member of the CIPD. I am a senior practitioner with the EMCC I have been coaching for, you know, it's like, okay, well, that tells you that that sets the tone then, right, doesn't it for what's coming next.
Amy Wilkinson (23:32.795)
You
Amy Wilkinson (23:44.334)
Mm-hmm.
Gayle Tong (23:44.786)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (23:47.286)
And one of the things I'm really conscious of now, and I'm just coming off the back, literally yesterday off the back of the EMCC annual conference, I was really careful about how I chose to introduce myself to people and really aware of how other people were introducing themselves to me. And on the whole, almost without exception, was, you know, hi, I'm...
Peter and I'm David and I'm Rebecca and there was no, and I'm this and I've done that and I'm here and it sets the tone. it's, how open and honest you can be and courageous and vulnerable will determine how the people around you show up too, right? It is absolutely contagious. Catherine, I wanted to come back to you because I was thinking about your point about
Amy Wilkinson (24:25.553)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (24:43.566)
being part of many different types of communities, like within the NHS, internally, externally, you mentioned about being part of the academic community at the moment and coaching. So what's different for you around how you might show up? Is there a difference, I guess is actually the question, is there a difference for you about how you show up in those different communities?
Kathryn (24:48.298)
me.
Kathryn (24:56.362)
Thank
Kathryn (25:11.018)
I use fancier language when I'm at university. I found myself saying thus a lot in my assignments, which I don't think I've ever used before. I think one of the things for me, particularly from the retreat that I attended, and I was the same as Donna, it was my first one, and I had some of those very similar anxieties. Am I good enough? And I know Gail,
Amy Wilkinson (25:15.055)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (25:18.531)
Okay.
Kathryn (25:40.263)
You talk lot, don't you, about inner critic and that's a big thing for me as well. you know, will I be... I suppose it's like you do compare yourself, don't you, I suppose, with other people in your communities. And I suppose it's part of that sense. I think Donna spoke about it almost like these are my people, this is my tribe. That when you feel like that, you don't have that sense of, am I good enough?
or am I worthy enough to be in this space? And one of the things that came out for me from this year's retreat was around, and it's interesting what you've all been saying, because I think this idea of qualifications and models and all that, and what I should be doing. So for me, should was a big word.
trying to catch myself out when I say I should be doing this or I should be doing that. And you know, the fact that I have an ILM level five qualification in coaching always made me feel slightly inadequate that I should have a level seven, should. But actually, what does that actually mean? And I've chosen to do a level five because I want to coach the masses. I don't want to coach senior leadership within my organization. So I was very tickled. So yeah.
sorry, rambling slightly, but I think, yeah, those things around, I good enough? And what should I be doing? And actually really listening to that word and thinking, why am I asking myself that? I'm, you know, in the communities that I'm in, I can bring something to them and yeah.
Melissa Hague (27:22.882)
Yeah.
Gayle Tong (27:23.836)
Can I just add into that about your qualification, Catherine, because not only was it your first retreat, you also had to get a lift with me. So I do apologize for how you arrived to the gathering. And my point, what I was just thinking as you were saying that was we've all talked, haven't we, about qualifications. I'm, know, ACC, PCC, whatever, whoever I've done it with, whatever I'm doing. No client of mine has ever asked what my coaching qualifications are, because what we've worked on is that human element.
Kathryn (27:31.838)
WOOOO
Amy Wilkinson (27:34.201)
I'm sorry.
Kathryn (27:34.853)
Hahaha!
Two.
Amy Wilkinson (27:53.722)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (27:54.252)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gayle Tong (27:54.694)
And actually these qualifications and all of these things only matter, matter to the people in coaching. To the people we've talked about, know, the coaching snobbery there, because we're again, we're back in that space of comparison. well, I've got this. well, no, I've got this. It will. But actually none of my clients have ever asked. I don't think they care. And that you probably wouldn't make any, they wouldn't know what it meant anyway. Sorry, I'll step down now.
Donna Ward-Higgs (27:58.459)
you
Amy Wilkinson (28:01.871)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:02.316)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (28:06.568)
Uh-uh.
Kathryn (28:18.886)
Melissa Hague (28:20.974)
It's so true. No, it's so true. It is so true. And they don't write because they essentially the client just wants to know, can you help me? Right? You know, that that's what I want to know. I think the thing that strikes me and I catch myself, similar to Catherine with this is that I get really cross with myself as well, because I've done the qualification, and I have the accreditation.
Jane Gilham (28:29.219)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:49.486)
But we also have this thing in our profession, is, well, just as Catherine said, well, I did an ILM level seven, and now I'm going to do another qualification because I because someone else has said they've got a master's or they've got a this or they've got a that. And I think, I haven't got that. I've just got an ILM level seven. Right. I'm going to go and do my master's now, you know, and then the whole kind of accreditation thing I've done, done, you know, I don't know, practitioner or ACC or whatever.
Kathryn (29:05.674)
You
Melissa Hague (29:19.278)
Right now I must work towards my PCC or my senior practitioner. And I am a sucker for that. Complete sucker. Right? And I'm like, at what point will you be enough? That's my question to me. At what point will be enough? And why are you chasing these things? What's in it for you? What's in it for your clients?
Amy Wilkinson (29:22.215)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (29:33.371)
Mm.
Kathryn (29:34.986)
Bye!
Melissa Hague (29:45.414)
And, know, if it's so for me, if it's so that I can rock up at the next conference and say, yes, now, last time we met, yes, I was I was a senior practitioner, but now now I'm a master practitioner. If it's that, then to stop, stop, stop, stop. You do not need you do not need this. So yeah, there is that real, it's not even that just the first step of I've got the qualification is then okay, what more do I need? How about you're enough already, right?
Amy Wilkinson (30:12.999)
Mm.
Jane Gilham (30:13.487)
And isn't it something about defining what success looks like for you? Because I got through, not got through, that sounds awful, but you can leave it in. I had a really successful career in leadership, in HR leadership. And I probably should have done my, I probably should have chartered to be frank, didn't, never have, could have been a fellow quite easily, didn't, haven't, too late now. Because,
Kathryn (30:13.819)
Mmm.
Kathryn (30:18.012)
Mmm.
Jane Gilham (30:43.819)
You know what you are and you know what you can do and you know the difference that you can make. And I think. Definitely on the qualifications around coaching, it's it's a slippery slope, isn't it, that you can quite easily end up tumbling down and hitting a hard rock?
Melissa Hague (30:58.882)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (31:00.621)
I think what this community does is bring you really close to and allow you to walk that path to who you really are and what you're about.
Amy Wilkinson (31:10.828)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Kathryn (31:11.946)
Mmm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (31:13.507)
And ultimately that's what makes a difference to the clients that we work with. Right? Who we are, how we show up.
Jane Gilham (31:17.549)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is the humanist, isn't it? It really is. that, you know, it's social media loves some humanity, loves some messiness, loves some stories around the actual person. You only need to track your own social media to see what hits the mark and what doesn't. People just want to know that you're
Kathryn (31:19.615)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (31:21.185)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (31:36.846)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (31:36.935)
Mm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (31:37.284)
My best performing post was a Sunday post about the vegetables I was cooking for my dinner.
Jane Gilham (31:41.741)
Yeah, yeah. And it's just, there is no rhyme or reason, but people just want to know that you experience life and that it's not perfect.
Melissa Hague (31:51.118)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that I always say with coaching, know, look, ultimately is two human beings in connection with each other. That's all at its base. That's what it is. And so learning who you are as a human, choosing who you want to be as a human, that that's the work, right? For sure. OK, I've got I've got another question I'm really curious about because
I know this is true for me and I think I know this is true for everyone in the room as well. I think I do. That we have all been on courses, programmes, workshops, you know, had a brilliant time, loads and then got back to our desks and not a lot has changed. Some stuff maybe, but not a lot. And, you know,
six months later, there's another course or another workshop or another program. And one of the things that I'm really conscious of with the courageous coach work is that it isn't a once and done thing. It just can't be right. It because it's it's self development. It's you know, you're constantly learning. I'm constantly being hit by new pieces of armor.
or discovering a new piece of vulnerability or being required to be courageous. Sometimes I choose comfort. All of that is happening all the time. It doesn't stop. So this is not a once and done, a flick a light switch kind of program. But that said, we all get back to our real lives and move on to the next thing. That's how it starts. That's what happens, right?
Amy Wilkinson (33:41.671)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (33:42.86)
So what I'm really curious about is what keeps you coming back? What keeps you kind of continuing to invest in your development as a courageous coach, whether that's the gathering, whether that's just staying in contact with me, whether that's doing your own work, you know, I'm with others, it's not, you know, just about me that what keeps you going with this development beyond just that initial program?
Jane let's come to you first she says that was a face Jane pulled a face if you're not watching on video just so you know
Kathryn (34:16.682)
you
Jane Gilham (34:22.733)
to hold in a word then that began with the same letter as face. What keeps me coming back?
Gayle Tong (34:26.706)
you
Amy Wilkinson (34:27.185)
you
Jane Gilham (34:34.639)
I think it's about.
knowing that it's time away, which is obvious, right? But it's a commitment to myself that I'm going to do this and
It's helping me.
Jane Gilham (34:58.095)
enjoy and live fully what is probably the hardest phase of my life when everybody tells you it gets easier. Well, it doesn't. All right. It just doesn't. Life keeps delivering punches, slaps, push-ups, whatever you want all the time. it is about for me, there's been a real shift from being avoidant, what they call in psychological terms, avoidant to being I'm not avoidant. I am more than happy to
Amy Wilkinson (35:07.623)
You
Jane Gilham (35:29.325)
get into, have conversations. I'm having to have them all the time. Lost my dad, I've got my mom, she's grieving. It's difficult witnessing her grief, managing my own grief, managing hers. And we're having to have those conversations all the time. And having our conversations with your parents is really difficult and really uncomfortable. I want to meet my body weight in revels normally, either before or after. But it is that commitment to, it gives you the foundations to just keep going every day.
Amy Wilkinson (35:50.343)
you
Jane Gilham (35:58.841)
for another year or for another two years. And the work is life-changing, and I'm not understating that, and that's not to sell the community. is life-changing. And I wouldn't be without it. I wouldn't be without it.
Donna Ward-Higgs (36:01.435)
you
Kathryn (36:15.923)
Really?
Donna Ward-Higgs (36:19.142)
As you're talking Jane, make the image that came to my mind is like a day-to-day diet. It's like the food you put into your body, right? It's something that can bring you comfort, bring you nourishment, help to improve the quality of the way things are working in the background. It can be a release. It can be a moment of joy.
Jane Gilham (36:28.814)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (36:28.849)
Mm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (36:47.802)
It's a part of being healthy and happy and well resourced. Self-awareness is a double-edged sword, right? On the one hand, it's great that we can see these things and we can work on these things, but my God, is it hard? And is it relentless? Yeah! And so there's that element of returning to a place.
Amy Wilkinson (36:52.935)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (37:08.995)
exhausting.
Jane Gilham (37:10.733)
Yeah.
Donna Ward-Higgs (37:16.024)
that feels restorative, feels safe, that feels nourishing. Like, that's what gets you through, right? I feel like that's what I connected to in what you were saying there, Jay.
Amy Wilkinson (37:24.551)
you
Jane Gilham (37:28.207)
Yeah, because there's always work to do, isn't there? There's always something. There's always something. know, in the two events I've been to, I've left with something new every time. And the funny thing that really made me laugh the last time I left was I got to the end of the driveway and normally I turn left. And I said, no, we're going on a different way. We're not using the sat nav. We're just going to freestyle it across the countryside. And I really chuckled to myself and it was one of those, come on, what's the worst that can happen? You know.
Amy Wilkinson (37:37.852)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (37:57.069)
your skin, breasts, SOS in your phone. And it is that whole life's to be lived, isn't it? It is to be lived. And I'm looking at, I'm in my kitchen and I can see my tea, sugar and coffee tubs. And you're talking about a, you know, having it and nurturing. It's almost like it needs a courage tip.
Amy Wilkinson (37:59.452)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (38:11.953)
Mm.
Kathryn (38:12.554)
Mmm.
Jane Gilham (38:13.325)
with which that you just come back to. You either take a massive handful or you just take half of one.
Donna Ward-Higgs (38:19.734)
Extra spoon in the coffee this morning.
Jane Gilham (38:21.613)
Yeah, with all the other supplements.
Amy Wilkinson (38:22.305)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (38:22.734)
Yeah.
Kathryn (38:24.861)
You
Melissa Hague (38:25.39)
And Amy, what about you? What keeps you coming back? What's that about for you?
Amy Wilkinson (38:33.231)
I think all of the above, and I just wanted to add in, also stops me feeling the need to spend all that money on all of those other courses and the CPD because it fills that need that I have. Well, and it reminds me constantly that being human is what makes me good at what I do and I don't need a badge for everything. So I would say, so I've done two of the gatherings and obviously did the
Kathryn (38:36.01)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (38:44.569)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (39:03.121)
program before that, that I have not, I'm a lot less shiny, shiny. I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to do that thing. I'm going to like, I've kind of realized that, you know, the fixing, fixing there is, you know, it's the work and the community you've created, just reiterating that you've created Melissa. know we're all part of it, but you have created has.
I know it's always going to be there to support me with that stuff. And therefore I don't need to go off and do shiny, shiny this, that and the other as well. And I flippin' love the gatherings because it's just time away. I mean, she says that with a small child that's left behind at home. But also just that time out, I think Jane said that already, but there's something, you know, it's been really powerful for me, both of the gatherings in terms of.
In the first one we talked about go big or go home. There was a kind of a group coaching session and it's helped me be courageous and really build things in my business and my life. So I just, it's, yeah, I think one of you said something, it's like that comfort blanket. It's just knowing there's a gang that have got your back.
Kathryn (40:27.86)
No.
Melissa Hague (40:27.913)
Yeah, Yeah, what's happening every two seconds. absolutely. Catherine, I'm also interested from your perspective as well, because again, I think, you know, you and I, you came through the programme in spring, I think 2024, and you came to the gathering beginning this year 2025. So it was a bit of a gap for you, but what kept you
Amy Wilkinson (40:29.115)
But aren't in your face, what's happening constantly.
Kathryn (40:48.01)
Okay.
Melissa Hague (40:54.443)
or what led you to think, yeah, I'm going to come back and do this gathering. What was important for you?
Kathryn (41:01.13)
I think probably as Amy said, all of the above, everything that's been said. But I was thinking it's a bit like anchoring yourself and having an anchor point. So when you feel a bit floaty and maybe there's things going on and you're not quite sure what you're doing or you're feeling overwhelmed or you're feeling stressed or it's kind of like having those, not just the gathering, but just general opportunities to reflect.
with other people, I'm better at reflecting with others, whether it's people I work with, whether it's you guys, it's, you know, whatever, within my communities, it's having those anchoring back to who you are. And I also often have these kind of like, the universe is trying to tell me something, you know, are you like, I heard that podcast, and then I read that thing, and there's a bit of a connection there, and perhaps the universe is trying to tell me something. And that's my kind of anchoring. So I think that I need
And I think we all probably do. We need those constant, not all the time, but often anchoring points so that we are reflecting and thinking about who we are.
Melissa Hague (42:12.152)
Yeah, I love that idea of it being an anchoring point. I don't think I'd called it or thought of it in that way before, but I think that's what it is for me as well is that kind of it's that anchor point to come back to the work. Because the work is there constantly for me, it kind of has to be because I'm you know, that that's, that's my work, and I'm helping other people do the work. So it's constant in my life. But you know, that's that
ability to have somewhere, whether it's the gathering or to be able to have conversations with all of you and to be able to just anchor in that moment of, yeah, okay, take a breath. You're doing the work, it's hard, it's not easy. And frankly, sometimes I wish I wasn't doing this work. Why can't I just not be doing the work? Yeah, absolutely.
Jane Gilham (43:00.461)
Thank
Amy Wilkinson (43:00.711)
Unsee it all, unsee it all.
Kathryn (43:04.882)
Until the course!
Jane Gilham (43:04.921)
This.
Melissa Hague (43:10.153)
But yeah, I love that idea of an anchor point. think that's what it is for me too. Lovely. Gail, what would you add or build on?
Gayle Tong (43:19.026)
Yeah, again, everything that everybody said. There was also, I did say this at the gathering, there's a bit of FOMO for me as well. Well, I don't want all them to be there and me to miss out on anything. But in all seriousness, I'm hesitating to use the word transformational because if we go back to the coaching snobbery, you know, the whole, it's transformational. But actually, this has been for me. So to, think, Amy, you mentioned, you know, there's...
courses that we go on and the shiny things and we pick them all up and for me I learned best when I focus on one thing. So when the opportunity came up to go through the program for me this was like this could be the one thing and obviously it linked with all of my work around confidence. So it just felt like the perfect thing and then I wanted to keep it alive. So I think I'm echoing everything everybody else has said but for me there's probably something around focus.
There's something around me really discovering who I am out of corporate life in my own business and then also the kind of coach that I am and being able to articulate that.
Melissa Hague (44:23.342)
Yeah, who am I? Who do I want to be? How do I want to show up? And I think the other thing that I would add that I really value about this community is that
because it's a learning journey, like, you know, the next time I show up with all of you, I might be slightly different because I'll have learned something new or added something new. And there's, there's kind of a general acceptance of that. Right. There's not a kind of, well, hang on, you're, weren't like that the last time we met.
I don't think I like you anymore. Right. It's there's that real kind of sense of we can morph and change and be malleable with each other. And say, actually, you know, that thing I said I was going to do or that thing I was going to change. Actually, I decided not to and I've done this instead. And, you know, there's there's no there's none of this. Well, hang on a minute. You know, you said you were going to do this and you haven't or, know, you were like this last year and now you're not. It's just you are where you are. Right.
Donna Ward-Higgs (45:27.012)
So I think that nails one of the reasons for keeping coming back. Identity isn't static. It's dynamic throughout our lives, throughout our experiences, and knowing that we're going to encounter those changes makes it even more important to feel that there's an anchoring point to go back to Catherine's analogy.
Amy Wilkinson (45:27.456)
Well.
Melissa Hague (45:31.896)
Mm. Mm-mm. Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (45:34.166)
Mm. Mm.
Kathryn (45:35.486)
Hmm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (45:50.479)
while everything else around me is moving and there's uncertainty. And particularly when there's uncertainty in who I am, the person I wake up with, the person I go to bed with, in those moments where I least know who she is, being able to connect to a community that can remind me.
Melissa Hague (46:09.556)
Mm, mm, yeah.
Kathryn (46:10.186)
Mmm.
Donna Ward-Higgs (46:11.8)
feels really important.
Amy Wilkinson (46:13.639)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (46:14.38)
yeah yeah well i feel nourished and contented and like just like i've had a really good sunday roast right really good sunday race yes yeah definitely a yorkshire pudding but no thank you all of you
Amy Wilkinson (46:18.183)
Hmm.
Jane Gilham (46:27.852)
up.
Amy Wilkinson (46:30.801)
Did it have a Yorkshire pudding on it? Yeah.
Jane Gilham (46:32.175)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (46:38.84)
for agreeing to do this and agreeing to wing it a little bit with me, because we were kind of, this is a group and I don't know, we're not sure about recording with a group and all of that. But you showed up, you haven't performed, you showed up as you and shared, and I'm very grateful for that. And more than that, really, actually, these five lovely ladies, plus a few others who...
would have been too big a group to manage in a podcast, so really the founding members really of the courageous coaching community, they're the reason I'm doing what I'm doing because of the impact it's had for them and that they've been willing to share is why I'm here doing the work I'm doing. And I'm really excited to see where the community goes, right? And I'm very conscious of, know, hopefully it's growing, it's expanding.
But I'm also fiercely protective of what we already have and what we've already created. So I don't want the WhatsApp group hitting every five minutes. And there are things that we kind of, want to keep and not lose really as part of that growing that community. And also I'm really conscious that, you people come through the program, people will engage with the community in different ways. And I think that that's a really important part of what we've all mentioned, right?
Some people will want to be really involved and do loads and some will be on the periphery and some will ebb and flow and some will return when they the anchor point and then come back out again. And I think that's such an important part for me of the community is creating, continuing to create that kind of sense of freedom rather than you must be here every Friday for the lunch and learn, you know, or whatever it might be. I don't know. I kind of, very, I'm being very careful.
Kathryn (48:27.718)
Yeah
Melissa Hague (48:33.77)
not to over engineer it but I am and will continue to be very grateful to all of you for being part of the community and for shaping it and for shaping me because I wouldn't be here as I say doing what I'm doing now without all of you so I'm very grateful for that. So thank you ladies it's been fun it's been a pleasure and we haven't had any major disasters so you know
Kathryn (48:59.944)
Yeah
Amy Wilkinson (49:01.306)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (49:01.721)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (49:04.273)
Wait, wait, wait till the files get to your producer before you say that.
Gayle Tong (49:07.216)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (49:08.494)
But regardless of where this ends up, I hope it ends up as, you know, episode whatever of season two. That's my hope because I want people to have hear our conversation, share it with us. But regardless, I've had a lovely time and a great conversation. So I'll take that. Thank you very much. All right. Take care, everybody.
Jane Gilham (49:08.75)
Yeah.
Kathryn (49:27.262)
Okay.
Jane Gilham (49:31.108)
Good.
Amy Wilkinson (49:32.109)
Thanks so much.
Donna Ward-Higgs (49:33.472)
Lovely to see you all.
Jane Gilham (49:35.151)
Bye, take care.