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Welcome to the Stacking Slabs, a podcast for sports cards collectors. There's been a tremendous amount of change to our Hobby over the last few years and the one constant has been the passion from the collecting community. Stacking Slabs is built by the collector and lives to tell stories for the collector.
Alright. Welcome back. Card Ladder confidential time. This is everybody's favorite podcast of all time.
You know it is. It's one of my favorites. I love doing this every week or every month, I guess, I should say, with Josh and Chris from the card ladder team. Have a cold open question as we do, here on card ladder confidential.
And here it is, gentlemen. I want you, this this shouldn't be complicated. It should be what comes to your brain first. I want you to tell me who your Mount Rushmore of Panini athletes are.
And I know take that for is however you wanna take it. Interpret it however you want to interpret it. And I would like to know who's your on your George Washington spot.
Like, that's the only, like, positioning I really care about. But when you think of your Mount Rushmore Of Panini athletes, who comes to your mind, Josh will, put you in the hot seat out of the gates.
K. I'm not going to limit this to players that only are within the window of Panini. Yeah. But I think all four of these guys have their whole career. Let me think. I'm just gonna fire it off.
I don't feel like That's what I want. Alright. Good. LeBron, Curry, Brady, Mahomes. LeBron, Curry, Brady, Mahomes. Alright. Chris? Yep. I think about this question all the time, so this is not a cold open question for me.
But, I take the approach of, the way and I'll answer it answer from a different angle. So for me, the player must have a rookie card in the Panini era. They must have that to meet my answer to this question.
And then if they do, I'm just gonna rank them by who has the most total MVPs, And they must also have license cards. Okay? So no Mike Trout, no Shohei Ohtani, even though no, most of hockey doesn't make the cut.
So, if we were including all the different manufacturers, we're including upper deck and tops and stuff, then this list would be a little bit different.
But, but since it's only I'm only looking at, license, that's that's going to be mostly NFL and NBA. NHL had a little license period, but I don't I don't think it yielded any of the big rookies.
So the Mount Rushmore shakes out like this. Patrick Mahomes has five total MVPs. He stands alone. He is in the George Washington slot. Nikola Jokic has four MVPs. He stands alone in second.
And then Steph Curry and Giannis both have Panini rookie cards. They each have three total MVPs. So those guys fill out my top four. Oh, this it's it this is so fun because I've gone through this, in my head a million times.
And I went, Josh, with your route initially and was like, you know, thinking of these goat players that maybe transcended different manufacturer eras.
And Chris and I moved it back and said, okay. Well, maybe they have to have rookie cards. And and so there's a consensus here with our list, because I'm gonna share my list too. So Patrick Mahomes is my, Mount Rushmore spot of the list.
But then I also on my list, I have I have Luca, and I have Luca based on just overall that's more of a, like, me as a marketer and not having to look too deep into the analytics, but just, like, time and place.
So I've got Lucas. I have Giannis on that list as well.
And then, I'm gonna actually I don't know if this is much to your dismay or not, but I I based on, weight and category elevation, I'm gonna put Caitlin Clark on the list too. So that's my list of Panini.
We've all got different lists, but I think that's fun. So my encouragement to everyone else out there, and maybe this is how we get this episode listened to by everybody in the hobby is, like, share your list.
I'd love to hear the list. Share, on Instagram or whatever your social media platform of choice is. Let me Brett, can I throw can I throw something out just real quick?
The this list, I I don't think this list is set in stone yet. Mine certainly isn't. And I I would say that, the, like, the players who define the nineties, sometimes that hierarchy can still get shaken up a bit.
And, you know, I I I I think the same will be true here. I think that, I I think that the defining players of the Panini era can still move around a lot.
Like, you you mentioned Luka and Clark. You know, I could have, I should have mentioned Asia Wilson in mind because now as of a week ago or less than a week ago, she has six total MVPs.
So she belongs on my Mount Rushmore too. And the other people who are, like, knocking on the door who could come in, Luca, SGA, Tatum. We wanna put Tatum in there.
Lamar Jackson is knocking at that door. He's got two total MVPs, Josh Allen. You know, there's there's lots of guys who and girls who could end up jumping into my Mount Rushmore by the time it's all said and done.
So I this is my list is far from over. I, I love the extra layer. And I will also say, like, there is an opportunity to build a system here, because like you mentioned Lamar Jackson, and this is no shade to Lamar Jackson.
Great player. Wish she was healthy. But I feel like then we have to if if the your gold prism becomes available, like, more than, like, 10 times in a calendar year, then we dock some points.
So we could get really nerdy on it. But I think it's a fun exercise and to think about, and we're gonna talk more about changing of the garden manufacturers in this episode.
But wanna kick it off. Like, when we started the series, it was really about, like, the emotional and analytical side of collecting and decision making.
And I've been listening to the crossover, listening to the host cast, and, like, one of the primary things that I picked up, from both of you this year is that, like, it's been a year of, like, pretty big change.
And it's been a year of change from the perspective of, like, you both individually have decided to to open up or kinda shift your focus on different collecting lanes. Chris, for you, it's your one of one Michael Jordan collecting.
Josh, for you, it's your one of one football collecting. And I thought, like, as just a way to kick off the episode, it would be fun to, like, dig into that and maybe dig into it from, like, an emotional and analytical, point of view.
Let's start with Michael Jordan first, Chris. When like, I was so shocked by this decision you made, because I'd listened to your content for so long, and I just felt like you were anti, this lane of Jordan.
And then all of a sudden, it's like this became not only what you wanted to pursue, but, like, you you're I will say you're obsessing over.
You're obsessing over doing whatever it takes to get these cards, which I think is really fun and also highlights, like, we change as collectors.
So maybe talk to us about, like, your mindset and mentality, because you've had to get let go of cards in order to get these cards, and big decisions are are being made.
So help us understand, like, when that moment was and everything that has kinda taken place and transpired since that.
Something that's been occurring with me over the last two to three years has been a shift in my fundamental approach to collecting. And it's a big picture thing that involves systematic institutional designs of how the card hobby works.
So, I I guess just like, the in a nutshell, what changed for me was that, I I took an active interest in understanding for myself and not letting content creators or publications or other websites do their work for me, but instead making the concerted effort myself to truly understand an a player or a type of card, understand the full checklist of it.
And that was something that was it was it it represented a paradigm shift in how I thought about things because my approach up until about two to three years ago was very market oriented, that, that I sort of assumed that every comp was an efficient metric of where cards rank, and I assumed that, that, that the market sort of is that that the market itself sort of dictates, collecting and and that a lot of important information is contained in that.
And and I and I still do think that those things are true, but I think I was over indexing on comps.
I think there's a risk that the hobby as a whole is over indexing on comps. And I think that right now, there's a burgeoning movement in all sectors of the hobby to, balance, like, and look. Look. Card letter plays a big role in this.
I think that we've we've made comps and pricing history and pricing tools so readily accessible that, that, you know, people look at have just sort of, like you know, it's so easy now, I think, to get comps, to do research, to let market price history dictate things that, a lot of things have fallen into the shadows or fallen into the cracks.
Yeah. You know? And and so I like, to give an example here, like, in the vintage and pre war world, there is a movement called iAppeal. And the idea is that, you know, for example, all PSA fours aren't the same.
Some PSA fours appeal more to one collector who really prioritizes centering. A different PSA four, which doesn't have great centering but has really sharp edges, might appeal to a different collector.
And that these even though they're in the same technical grade of the same card, that when we apply nuance and scrutiny and context, that it emerges that these are actually two different items.
And that then we if we really think about it, we we can go look at all of the different PSA fours.
Like, there's a collector named Maddie c who's working on a project to accumulate images of all graded copies of all the various cards he's interested in to sort of note that there are lots of nuances and variations within a given grade.
And I think that trend is something that we're gonna see throughout, and we're starting to see, and we will see more throughout all the different segments of the hobby.
But for, like, the arrows and the segments that we collect, it's not so much about eye appeal. That does matter too.
But we have different things where there are things that that sort of we've taken for granted are overlooked. Like, for them, they're saying that the price of one PSA four doesn't necessarily dictate the price of the next.
And sort of in our era, it's like, you know, certain cards, they they they have markets, they create comps, but there's lots of cards that that we aren't seeing, that we just that don't that if we only lean into comps and pricing, that they're just they will never come onto our radar.
And so this for me, about two or three years ago, I started spreadsheets checklists just, like, literally and I think, you know, really was like Jokic was the first player that I did this for where I just I was like, you know what?
I I need to know every one of one of Jokic from his rookie year.
I need to know what they are. Doesn't mean I I want all of them, but I need to know all of them. And it turns out that only, like, 10% of them have ever been seen. So there's all these cards. I think that my list ended up producing 38.
So there's like 35 that I had just never even seen before. They're just that I was in total ignorance of. And then once that approach started happening, then you know, now now my whole perspective starts to shift.
And I say, well, I need to be doing this for everything. I need to know what all the available cards are for everything. And so for me, that's been that's been a paradigm shift.
And so, like, Mahomes was, like, the first player I ever collected where before I ever got involved in, like, accumulating cards of his for my collection that I I knew what his full checklist was first.
So I was able so, like, if a card comes to auction, I'm able to say, well, I can go back to my checklist, and I I know that this is a good card, but but maybe the market is a little too high on this.
Maybe I need to wait because there are some cards that I think are better that just haven't shown up yet.
So that's been the fundamental change for me, Brett, is actually taking a very deliberate effort. And it's tough to do, man. There's there's so much research that has to go into this in order to build out checklists for players.
It took me multiple weekends just to make Mahomes' rookie year checklist. So there there's a lot of time and effort that has to go into it, and I think that's a that's a big barrier to to doing a project like this.
But that that's been the shift for me is is really taking it starting from scratch and trying to understand full offerings of players and their cards. We're gonna get Josh involved, but I have to ask you a follow-up.
And that is, first of all, it I I love the irony and the fact that you're the creators of Card Ladder who have made this data so accessible, and then, like, you're almost in a way zagging against the own thing that you're building in terms of, like, access to data and the fact that less data in your mind when it comes to some of these Michael Jordan one of ones probably, maybe.
And I'm assuming this, but, like, do you do you feel like because there isn't the data on some of these Michael Jordan one of ones, do you like, you love the cards, you're pursuing it, it's an exciting lane.
Do you feel like I hate to say, like, you're getting a deal on these Jordan cards because they're Michael Jordan one of ones, and I can't even imagine the amount of money that you're spending.
But, like, is there a part of you knowing that these cards aren't transacted, like, on an annual basis, and there's not this rich history that you feel like you're able based on your love of Jordan, one of ones, the cards itself, do you feel like you're buying these cards at a price that maybe will never be available at that price ever again?
Do you think about that? It's definitely possible. It's definitely possible.
And I'm very like, look. I mean, you've you said it. I've I've I'm obsessed with this project because it just, it it is screaming at me in my head constantly that, that that just I'm I'm very excited and passionate about it.
And the Zag the Zag is hilarious, and it's it is very true. It is it is the Zag. But, but but it's the Zag is, is is more of a Zag to the middle rather than a Zag against.
So it's like, pricing information, very important. And it and it's it's still very important, but it's not the whole story. It never has been the whole story.
And perhaps, we've we've made it so easy to get pricing information, and we've made it so accessible that there's a temptation to sort of let price be the end all be all and not supplement price research with checklist research.
And, and and now I think so here's here's one way to think about it. Card Ladder and other tools like it have made researching pricing so efficient and easy that now there's new collectors have new time that we didn't have before.
So for vintage or pre war collectors, you know, they can quickly and easily go gather images from, like, a sales history database like Card Ladder going back ten, fifteen, twenty years.
They can go start gathering up all these images. They're all in this central database. And that that wasn't the case, you know, years ago. That this is a this is a new technological invention that's available.
And now that this information is that the research of this information is just really all located on the sales history screen on an app like Cardliner, that it's all it's all readily available for you right there, that frees up time to do other new research now.
Now we've we've we've allowed there's there's more times or at least that's how it works for me.
When I started with Michael Jordan collecting, my spreadsheeting was, let me go look at all the results from this most recent PWCC auction and cram them into a spreadsheet and calculate percentages, and that was the hours and hours of spreadsheet and research.
And I don't need to do that anymore. All that information is available at my fingertips now. So what do I do with my new research time?
I love it. Josh, you have talked about you are a big football fan. You love fantasy football. And for you and I know you had collected football, prior to you jumping back into football at your level.
But I want to maybe understand from you, like, the emotional side is, like, your connection with football, and obviously, fantasy football side and wanting to bring some of these guys who are all time greats in your collection.
But then, like, the analytical side is, like, this costs money. And in order to jump into this lane and make the decision, you have to spend money and build out these collections.
And you've I mean, you've been just as aggressive as Chris has on the fantasy side of black fine arts, gold vinyl optics.
Maybe take take take us into that, like, when you decided to do this, why you decided to do it, and, like, how you made it make sense for you.
Over the last, I would say, like, two years, my fandom for the NFL has surpassed the NBA. I've always been a lifelong NBA fan. A lot of that due to LeBron growing up watching him play and being my favorite player and his success.
But now I guess maybe that he's older and I I haven't really found that next player that I choose to root for as hard as LeBron. So I'm I've been shifting over to NFL.
And I feel like the NBA marketing is really bad. The analysts are terrible. They're always like shitting on the players and saying how they only shoot threes. And I just like the coverage around the NBA has turned me off.
And the NFL just continues to add, like, more and more superstars, like the number of superstar fantasy football players feels like it goes up every year, the quarterbacks, there's so many storylines.
I just feel like the NFL product is a lot better right now.
So I've just wanted to build up a football collection. And the analytical side is that relative to LeBron and basketball, especially like nineties basketball, the football cards are just a lot cheaper.
And so I'm able to get more specific about exactly the cards that I want, the players that I want, and I don't have to compromise.
And I'm able to get only one on ones, and I'm able to get only the top players and only their rookie cards for some of these guys. And so it's been a lot of fun to, like, do the comparison and prices.
And, you know, I could sell one LeBron. I've sold a few LeBrons and that's basically paid for, like, all the football cards I've bought. And, you know, I've got, like, 40 or 50 of them now. That that's selling, like, three LeBrons.
Yeah. I so we've talked about your LeBron collection, and it's it's incredible. And, obviously, it comes with a price and sacrifice. And you've you've you've that's been your foundation. It's like your LeBron collecting.
There's stories about the LeBron collecting a lot of them that no one wants to give you any credit for, Josh. People talking about the They tagged me today. Oh, I get Congratulations. You got tagged. First time.
Like, that experience, I think, is a unique one where it's like you started collecting one of the greatest of all time and buying his cards and spending a lot of money, and then realizing there's another category that you're just as passionate about.
But, like, the cards, while segments of the hobby, I e football collectors view what you're buying is, like, incredible cards, some of the best cards ever.
But the way you're looking at it is, like, I love these cards just as much as you all love them too.
But it's even, like does it feel like it's you're having even more fun because you're not having to pay the, you know, regular, like, 5 figure prices on, like like, you are with LeBron?
Like, has it taken, like, a mindset shift for you? And, like, are you enjoying it more as much as you you have, when you've collected LeBron? I would say it's more fun. I'm able to get more cards.
I'm able to expand it to different players, like, researching different players, statistical histories, and, like, I'm I'm learning a lot about all these guys and the number of all pros they have, the number of, receptions, yards, PPR points per game and fantasy.
Like, there's all these different stats that roll up into a lot of these guys, and it's fun to research and dive in, try to rank them all.
And I'm not, like, only getting the top top guys. I'm trying to, like, balance, you know, my some of my favorite players that I've owned in fantasy football over the years mixed with, like, the ones who've had the most success.
And, like, for example, the like, a LeBron rookie Bowman Chrome gold. That's, like, his third best gold or most popular gold refractor from his rookie year.
It's, like, topped chrome is usually seen as the best product and the finest and then Bowman, and it's out of 50. That card sells for, like, $200 and a high grade.
Dude, for $200, I could have, like, some of the best receivers, best cards of all, you know, it's like I could have Jerry Rice's best nineties card ever made one on one or, like, LeBron's hundred and eightieth best card.
So it just the the ratios just don't make a lot of sense for me to continue to to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for cards that I'm not, like, super passionate about for LeBron, where I could, channel some of that energy to cards that excite me more.
I'm getting more frequent mail days. There's more, diversity in player, etcetera. This is, it's it's been fun to watch both of you experience this and maybe just one more on each side before we move on to the next topic.
You know, I I feel like I know you both decently well at this point. And it you're not looking for approval from other people when you're making decisions on what you're buying.
You're not, like you might be, in a way, inspired by what someone posts or what someone says. But, like, at the end of the day, you're making your own decisions.
What kind of Chris, especially, like, for you, like, when you make the trade, like, you've documented on the hooch cast with Stan, and you're giving up molten metal, which is a card that the market and Jordan collectors and the tears, like, put in such high regard.
Like, I would imagine there are people out there that are just like, I can't believe you're, like, willing to give up that card for this.
These cards. And, yeah, they're one of one, but no one cares about them. No one's talking about them. Like, how much, I guess, like, what has the the community how's the community responded by your decisions?
Not saying you care or not. Like, you're you're not seeking their approval, but I'm just curious, like, your peers in the Jordan community, like, how do they view what you're doing?
I try to be very delicate with that. I try to be very respectful of the existing order.
I'm not trying to tell people that the stuff that I'm collecting now or that the trades that I'm making are changing the way that that market works or that, that, I'm that I'm trying to tell them that the way that they're doing things or approaching things is wrong or or that the way I'm doing it is right.
I'm I'm very sensitive to that. The the last thing I wanna do is try to, you know, shake the snow globe because, you know, people are people are having a a great time collecting Michael Jordan.
There is an established hierarchy of Michael Jordan cards. That hierarchy has been established over decades, multiple decades. And, and, you know, I own cards that, that, are prioritized by that paradigm too.
And I've and, you know, so while I did end up trading away my molten metal fusion titanium out of 40, and my, star rubies out of 50, both from 9899, and I haven't discussed yet the star rubies trade, but there's a whole avalanche of content coming about that trade soon too.
That, that, that but I still kept some, of my favorite cards that are not one of ones of Jordan.
I still have my PMG red of Jordan from 9798. I still have Why'd you why'd you keep the PMG over the molten metal fusion titanium in the Starrubies?
You know, the PMG red is very much an identity card for me. So and, and I've got I there's just a million reasons. Right? I've got a personal connection to it.
I I got it in 2018, as a law student at UCLA Law School. I should I remember when I bought that card, you know, people were, shocked and odd, let's say. And, they just thought I was nuts when I bought that card.
And, and, and I and I and I also like, I got a gut punch too because because I grade it what it formerly was a BGS eight, and then I graded it with PSA, and it got a PSA five. And, from the vantage point of today, that sounds just fine.
But, from the vantage point of back then, that people were like, wow. Not only do you overpay for this card, but then you downgraded it three grades. You know? So, so, you know, but there's I've got a story.
I've got a connection to that card. It's an identity card for me. You know, first PMG issue. There's a there's a lot to like there. But, you know, if I'm if I'm if I'm being completely honest, it's an overvalued card.
It is. But from my opinion, from my opinion. Alright. There's 90 copies of that card. So I I do think it's overvalued, but, you know, I I, but but let's say this. Let's say this.
One one of the thoughts that I have about that card is that I do love it. I do have a personal connection to it. The PMG red was the card that was my was was, the apple of my eye from when I first returned back to the hobby.
It just it I just, you know and and I think often about how did that have come to be the case, and it was because when I first came back to the hobby, I was browsing blowout a lot, and that card had mythical status on blowout.
And I remember some posts from influential commenters that always were sort of singing that card's praises.
And then so the the one another image that's blazed in my mind is this blog, this Japanese blog that showed off this collector's Michael Jordan collection, and a PMG red was in there, and it just looked really cool.
And, like, these were the formative moments on my very, plastic brain at that time, my very malleable brain at that time that, that that that card became a goal and a and a target for me.
And so then getting it was a big collecting achievement and stuff. But but, but I guess, like so, you know, holding on to that card is me not totally abandoning the the preexisting Michael Jordan order.
So, you know, that card sits very high in the in the, in the in the current Michael Jordan hierarchy. It sits very high. And so that's that's me keeping a foot in that bucket and that collecting world.
You know, that's that's, that card is sort of a relic of the way I used to approach collecting. It's, it gives me, a connection point to the mainstream Michael Jordan collecting community.
You know, it's sort of like, if I if I was a big music fan and, like, I went I've started becoming more and more particular in finding these niche bands, but but I still like the Rolling Stones, you know, or the Beatles.
I still have my mainstream band that I like. That's kind of what the the p m g red represents to my collection now after you know, there's a lot of history that I have with it and stuff.
But I love it. Josh, before we get off this topic, you obviously are entering a new category or have entered a new category, and that's, you know, football.
I know you've spent some time in it in the past, but you're returning and you're buying big cards at auction and privately.
Like, what has, like, what has it been like for you just you've been kinda connecting with a bunch of LeBron collectors for a long time.
What's it been like for you, connecting with new group of collectors and having conversations around these cards, and then also just, like, feedback you've gotten as maybe a newer guy buying some of these big cards in this, segment.
It's great. It's a lot more people because now I'm competing with, like, team collectors, you know, like, Rams collectors and Packer collectors on Davante.
Like, there's just all kinds of different types of people in these spaces, and it's a lot of fun. I've also noticed a lot of them are a lot younger.
I don't know if there's anything to that. This might be, like, the new wave of collectors, that came into football, like, early two thousands when it started becoming more popular than basketball.
A lot of the, LeBron collectors, Michael Jordan collectors are, like, millennials, like me and Chris and a little bit older. You know, big nineties fans, Michael Jordan. That's how they came into basketball.
And I'm feeling like the football crowd or at least, like, it may be because I'm not doing the quarterback thing. You know? Like, it it may be like the fantasy football crowd, the younger generation that came in, post February.
And so it's fun. It's different. I still am pretty involved in the LeBron communities and still chat with those those guys all the time and still would love to add more LeBron cards to the collection.
It's just like once you do the one on one thing, it's really hard to to to undo that and, like, buy a LeBron at a 25 or something. And I've tried to get LeBron one on ones, but it's like Good luck.
Bob Intrack? Yeah. It's like either, yeah, either those guys have them all or, like, you know, they're $50 a piece for, like, a twenty six twenty second year uptake or whatever.
Jeez. That was fun. I'm glad we could talk about just some of your, collecting this year and shifts you've made.
I wanna dig into market check, and I this is this is called same faces, different auctions. And this is what happens when I'm left with, like, gaps in my day.
I yeah. Last week, I just, like, just had this, like, thought where I I know exactly when it happened. I was it was my kids were in bed, and I was, like, checking card ladder.
I had my laptop on my couch, and then I decided, oh, there's a new premier auction. I started, like, flipping through, looking at all the cards, and then I was, like, no.
I'm not, like, getting excited about any of this. And part of it was this realization that it was, like, I'm seeing the same players over and over over and over. And I don't collect these players, so why why should I care about this?
And so then, like, I slept, and I woke up, and I was like, let me go back. And I started, like, digging through data. And so I did just a filter and card ladder. Fanatics premiere, look at 6 figure sales.
And they're first of all, Fanatics Premier sales, not the one that's happening, but just this year, there's been 2,050 cards sold through Fanatics Premier this year, which I know is up from previous clips based on them opening, it up, at this point.
And then there's been a 160 that have broken six figures. Now, more than half of those figure or of those sales have included Jordan, LeBron, Brady, Curry, Kobe, Mantle.
So, like, the concentration of players is very it's very focused. And which I think I'm not, like, saying anything that's, like, shocking to anyone. I'm just, like, trying to shine a light on it.
It's, like, it's the same players every time, give or take some new hot prospect here or there. And I wanna just, like, start because I think this, like, this is a very interesting could be a very interesting topic to unfold.
And I've just been on an island by myself looking at these these data and, like, trying to make sense of it.
But I wanna, like, talk about it from the perspective of, like, one, like, do do you see do you you both look at a lot of auctions? Like, do you see the same things?
And, like, I guess, like, what does this concentration around a few players and a few players going for, you know, 6 figures or above tell us about, like, the psychology of our fellow peers and participants in the hobby?
Chris, we'll start with you. Well, something that occurs to me is I've listened to Josh talk, I've listened to you talk, and I knew this topic was coming.
And I this this episode, I think, one day is going to be looked back on as a turning point in in just, the the in just as a as like a signal and a lot of accumulating perspectives sort of being crystallized for the first time.
Because there's a theme running throughout this whole episode. You can hear it in Josh's story. It's in my story. It's in this observation that you're making here, Brett.
It's been a part of your collecting story along several different, detours or stops that you've made along your collecting route is that, that there's there's a there's the the theme is that is is seeing things, identifying things that no one else sees yet or seeing things that aren't visible yet.
That and and, and and so, like, we're talking so far, we've been talking about collecting approaches and sort of identifying areas of the market and players and types of cards that that are not highly visible.
And now this example that you've rung up is the is the most tangible of it because we're literally talking about what cards do we see come to market and what cards do we not see come to market.
And it reminds me of a quote from doctor Beckett that, my friend Joe Poirot loves to recite, and it stuck with me ever since he recited it.
And it's and doctor Beckett says this, picture doctor Beckett walking around a card show, and he's looking in the display cases of all the dealers.
And he's looking at the cards that are in the showcase, and he says, this is great. And I see you've got this stuff for sale, and you've priced it, and you've put it available to the public, and you wanna sell it.
That's not the stuff that I want. I want what's behind the table. What's the stuff that you don't wanna sell?
What's the car what are the cards that you haven't put out? What are the cards that you didn't put a price tag on? Those are the cards that I'm interested in. I want the cards that are not for sale, not the cards that are for sale.
And so I translate that mindset to these premier auctions. And I think so I think on your episode and just now, you did a a very adequate job of summarizing the demand side, the collector's point of view.
What do we think when we, as collectors, see these cards, what they sell for, who the players are, what the types of cards are that dominate the offering?
So let me supplement that with the supply side point of view, which is the point that doctor Beckett was making. Who decides which cards get into these premier auctions in the first place?
Who's curating this offering? And the mechanics of that work a little bit like this. Part of it is that it's just collectors deciding what to send to auction, and there's a price threshold.
And so, you know, there are naturally certain cars that what everybody would agree will meet the price threshold, and they can gain entry to this auction.
So there's there's certain people who say, well, I know I have a car that's worth at least enough money to qualify for the premier.
And, you know, I'd I'd I'd like to turn this card into cash, so I'm going to send it. So there we have already, we have one layer of, like, the dealer sort of saying or the or the seller saying, this is what I'm willing to sell.
And the and the discerning buyer, the doctor Beckett buyer says, well, that's great, but I wanna know what you're not willing to sell.
So that that's one layer of this. And then the other layer of it is that the a lot of the offering of the premier is curated by concierge services in the hobby.
So a lot of it is are cards that are being recruited actively by intermediaries who bring them to market at favorable, percentages of the hammer, and they're helping to curate it too because they know that there is a conservative cluster of names and types of cards that will sell well.
And so they sort of usher in a certain type of card.
They sort of filter and recruit and supply the market with a certain type of card of a certain type of player. So that's a mechanism that's in place too. But once in a while, that mechanism gets shaken up a little bit.
And the example that I that comes to mind when I think about this is so one of the curators of the offerings of the premier is Nick with Wharf Sports Cards, and he does a nice job of finding the diamonds in the rough and occasionally servicing them, although those are very hard to surface.
Those are the ones that people are very reluctant to let go of. And so one of the examples is the Dan Marino credentials, the 1998 credentials now Dan Marino, which is a card numbered to eight.
He surfaced one of those not even a year ago. He surfaced one of those, and Dan Marino is not a name on this list. He is not Jordan, LeBron, Brady, Curry, Kobe, or Mantle.
Dan Marino is is a great football player of the eighties, but he's he's not on anybody's hobby Mount Rushmore. He's not even close. He's not even carved down the steps up to the hobby Mount Rushmore.
He is not on that mountain. And he had a card that has eight copies, not a one of one, not a rookie card, a card that has eight copies that Nick surfaced and it sold for 6 figures.
And he surfaced it and he placed it into that premiere. So that merino, I think, is a rare example of a type of card that normally would never come for sale.
That is the type of card that gets held back. That's the type of card that the dealer has sitting in their PC box that never gets priced, that never goes into the showcase.
So the supply side of this is a big part of the story too. The supply side is that these are the players. These are the types of cards that come available that we see.
But I'm always asking myself that Doctor. Beckett question in the back of my mind. Okay. So these are the stuff that you guys are willing to sell, but I wanna see what you're not willing to sell. I love it, Josh. And you too, Chris.
Like, out of these players mentioned, you collect Jordan, Josh, you collect LeBron. So you're I'm sure you're looking at all of these, and I'm sure you've jumped to some of these conclusions over a long history of collecting.
But I don't know, like, what what are your observations, especially as someone who, over the years, have likely been competing on some of the cards that are coming to these big auctions?
Yeah. It's my job to look at these sales whether I want to or not. Yeah. The premiers generally, don't interest me because it is the cards that people are willing to sell over and over.
There's always, like, four or five that piqued my interest. I'm looking at the Randy Johnson, PMG gem master from this last one that sold for 44.
I love the example of the Dan Marino. And then now so once that's sold for 6 figures, though, Chris, then someone I think it was relisted. You know? It was bought potentially via Yep.
Six months later, it came out for half. Someone tried someone tried to make money, but the other seven copies didn't come out. You would think that, like, the owners of the other ones would think, oh, I've it's worth a $100.
I never in a while, you know, in my wildest dreams thought it would sell for that much. Let me send mine, and they didn't. It was just this one same copy of the person who tried to make money off it, and they weren't able to.
So there is this, like, consistent thread of the collectors are still, like, holding back a lot of their favorite cards. Chris, even on this podcast admitted, like, he thinks that MJ red is overvalued.
Like, do you think a card's overvalued? You would sell it. Right? But he doesn't want to because he has emotional connection to the card. It tells his story, etcetera.
So I I do still think that there is this, consistent theme with these big auctions where it's kind of the same cards over and over because those are the cards people want to sell, and I'm generally not as interested in those cards.
I mean, we're still seeing, like, five or six, I'd say, in each of those auctions where it is an interesting new thing that pops up, and it it usually surprises people.
I'm thinking of a Barry Sanders green PMG. That card sold for $300. People would probably estimate itself for a 100.
So, like, there is still those, like, random cards that, you know, someone was convinced to put it in there, or they just decided now let me see what I can get for this, and it does pop off. And so, there's always a decent mix.
But, yeah, that that's, like, another reason I've jumped into the non QB football is I'm just, like, really tired of, like, competing over LeBron or Seth Curry or Kobe's, like, five thousandth best card.
It just doesn't interest me as much because, you know, when you've been in the hobby for so long, we see these same cards.
We see these auctions every month. It's the same cards over and over. LeBron tops Kroger Fracture PSA 10, the exquisite added 99, the Curry Gold roof. We see these cards over and over and over.
So part of the appeal is of the football is, like, a lot of these cards are cheap enough and rare enough where, like, people never even thought to sell them because because they're just not worth it for them to send them to the auction houses.
And so they're buried with these collections. And, you know, there's this interest of mine to try to go fish them out and see what kind of collection I can build from cards that aren't for sale.
You know? Before we jump off of this and into the new, topic, I think we three, and I'd imagine a lot of people listening share in this, mindset around.
Like, the the the cards I think we want the most or the high highest have, like, the highest desire are likely the cards we think about and haven't seen or maybe seen a time or two.
But, like, they're not the cards that are getting relisted in auctions over and over again. Like, what do you think that says about collectors in general that the things we covet the most are the pieces that we don't have access to?
And if we do get a this happened with me. It's like one slight opportunity to get access. It's like, take my money. Like, take it.
Because this is it. Like, what what do you that to me, like, those who, like, as I describe that, like, feel that in the audience, we all know that feeling, but it's, like, it can't be talked like, it's not talked about at the top.
It's not what anyone's saying on a podcast for is the reason why certain cards are going up in price. Like, the way we compare prices and talk about them a lot of the times is very surface level.
So, like, I don't know. What what is it about access and access to pieces that we really want? What is it about that dynamic that really gets us motivated to spend more than we even ourselves thought we'd spend on a specific card?
Chris, I'll toss it to you. Well, something I've noticed is I've become just, on a very superficial level, acquainted with just a handful of vintage and pre war collectors. I don't collect in that lane.
I don't think I ever will. But, there's a revolution or a a renaissance rather of content in the vintage and pre war space that's happening on YouTube, and it's really cool. And I I can't help but notice it and consume some of it.
And I've noticed that the most some of the most advanced collectors in that lane, they they all seem to sort of end up at the desk at the destination of, quote, unquote, oddball or obscure cards. Mhmm.
And they're some of the greatest pride that they take as collectors at the advanced stage is unearthing and discovering and telling the story of cards that meet the criteria that are licensed or that show the player in their proper uniform or, like, you know, I've I was, reading a blog the other day about Jackie Robinson's, first cards and, and just sort of about the there's a lot of lore surrounding how they got classified and how the, the the card that is classified by, some of the grading companies is a nineteen forty eight leaf is it's almost, I hope I have the card right, but it's almost indisputably true that it's the '19 it's actually a 1949 issue.
That's, that because the card's backside has a copyright date of 1949 and that the caption on the backside of the card references his complete 1948 season.
And so there actually are these issues called the bond bread issues, and it's tough to, pinpoint exactly when some of them were released.
And I think Jackie has 12 or 13 bond bread issue cards. But there there is one of them in particular that that has a strong case, a strong historical evidence based case to have been issued in 1947 in his true rookie season.
And so there's this is like a even this is sort of a a bit superficial, and and there are collectors.
And if if somebody's interested in this, like, I would I would implore you to to do research and to go well beyond what I've just sketched.
But but there's there are these there are these niche areas where just you know, if I look at the Jackie Robinson's you know, if I go to card ladder, type in Jackie Robinson and sort by price, I'm gonna see a certain set of cards.
And one of the cards is it turns out is actually misclassified. And and and that's that that's as a as a sidebar, that's something that happens a lot in this hobby.
Like, you'll still see occasionally auction listings that will call the $19. 52 Topps Mantle a rookie card. And the only case that you can make for that being a rookie card is that it's, you know, maybe it's his Topps rookie card.
It's his first Topps card, but there is a 1951 Bowman that it that was issued in his rookie season. There's lots of these situations where it just serve the markets.
The market, sort of gathers around a card or sort of some of the myths that surround a card sort of reinforce the market, the market reinforces the myths, and that that creates opportunity for for for more sophisticated, advanced collectors to find things like these Bond bred Jackie Robinson cards and other things like that.
So I think that there is this tendency as collector that I've they've noticed in that community, I think it's very true among the three of us as collectors too, is that, is that, you know, there's there's something just so thrilling and satisfying about finding unseen like, seeing things that others can't quite see or that that that only through the fruits of research and through experience and sports fandom and knowledge of multiple categories and synthesizing all those all that knowledge, like, sort of the fantasy football museum project that Josh that's what I think.
That's how I see it.
It's like he's building a museum of the most special one of ones of the greatest fantasy athletes of the golden era of fantasy. But think about all the different categories of knowledge you need to have to build that.
You need to have knowledge of products. You need to have an understanding of how rarity works. You need to be able to see things that aren't available in the market.
You need to be able to see the unseen in the market. You need to know who those players are. You need to know how to rank them. You need to experience and fandom with football.
Sort of there's something There's an extra level of satisfaction of being able to blend all those different domains of knowledge and then synthesize them, and and this is the result is this curated museum of cards.
So I I think that there's something deeply satisfying about reaching that point as a collector.
A lot of, good information and good intel in that segment. That's one I think we could probably talk about for hours, but we're gonna move over to the licensing shift.
And we've seen the transition from Panini to Topps in basketball, and it is coming soon in football. And also, like sidebar, like, Panini decided to drop, like, a bunch of products toward the end of it.
Not just, like, bad products. I think talking with collectors, there's a lot of products that people are really, really enjoying, like, Silhouette being one of them.
So it's an interesting time, I think, to be a basketball collector. We've seen the top sell sheet. We can get into that too. But, Josh, how are you feeling? It we've we were expecting this to happen, and then it's just it's happening.
And it's kinda crazy because it's like we've been talking about it. Now we're here, but how are you feeling right now about just, like, the shift from Panini basketball to this new era of Topps basketball? I'm excited about it.
I, I'm excited about the end of Panini where we can, like, put a a final bow on all these products and we can finish our runs and we can have a finality to, like, not collecting black finance anymore, for example, and knowing this is sort of like the end of the supply.
And then there's also the excitement of what to look forward to with what I feel are pretty good innovation, signals from tops, with the MLB debut patch, whichever one loved, and the new, like, three kings idea.
I think we talked about on crossover. We really like that idea as well.
So it's not specifically just those, like, two ideas. I think it's the idea that, they are gonna continue to, like, innovate and bring out new ideas to excite collectors and keep them, coming back for new new products, etcetera.
So I'm excited about the prospect of someone new coming in and seeing what's gonna change and bringing back super fractures.
I I've been buying some older super fracture cards of my favorite fantasy guys, and now I can, like, spring that up with some of the newer players. I think that's exciting to bring that, book in that. So, I mean, just excited.
I think Panini did a fantastic job to wrap it up. I just I've said it many times, but I thought they I thought they crushed it. They they put a big emphasis on one on ones, and I think that's gonna carry into tops.
And they're gonna tops is gonna take notice and and learn a lot from what Panini did and what collectors have focused in on. So I think that'll that's gonna end up being a a great thing.
So in this first phase of tops in the basketball license and LeBron specifically, like o three until license change, like, your focus has been a lot on, you know, these these gold runs.
And then in between this, right, you're collecting football cards in the Panini era and you're being introduced to the the one of one of it all and you're like, that's what you're all about.
Like, how much does even though it's different manufacturer, different category, how much does you're collecting on the football side influence how you think about participating in this new era of tops, if at all?
I'll be focused on, like, how many different one on ones they make and, like, the shimmer finite.
You know, is there gonna be, like, a super factor in another one of one? I'm interested to see how they want to lay out that hierarchy and how collectors decide.
And I think the super factor is the easy one, but I'm sure they'll come out with, like for example, Panini came out with the Nebula. People loved it.
Is Topps going to innovate on a different type of one on one? And I'm sure there's people that could tell me that baseball has done that for the last ten years, and I'll learn that as football and basketball start to release those.
But I do think because they're taking over basketball and football, they're going to want to change things up. They're not just gonna stick with whatever baseball's done over the last ten years.
Chris, how are you feeling about this, transition? Yeah. I agree. I'm excited. I think, they they what they are bringing to the table that, was absent from the Panini era, which is fine. It's just different approaches.
But, one thing that I can celebrate about tops approach right away is that they are restoring the connection point to the fan and the to the collector that the nineties had. Like, the Three Kings project, I like some parts of it.
I don't like other parts of it, but it's undeniable that this is this is a a bridge that, that tops it prioritizes between the collector and the and themselves and the and the athlete.
And so I I think I I look forward to all the innovations that are gonna continue to flow.
You know, I think the debut Petrautograph was a cool innovation that sort of is is in that general category. I I just look forward to the things that they're gonna continue to do because they they have a whole different style.
They approach things in a whole different way. There's some strengths that Panini has. There's some strengths that they have. It's gonna be different, in some respects, and I I look forward to it a lot.
But, but one thing I wanted to call attention to is, that, you know, everybody there's a lot of fanfare around this final flawless release, and, you know, everybody's posting the hits from it and stuff, and it's a big deal.
And, but but, otherwise, the end of the Panini licensed basketball era has gone over pretty quietly in the night with a few exceptions.
I saw Kyle from wax museum had a YouTube video, and I think he's done several pieces of content memorializing Panini's offering.
And Brett, you did first of what sounds like will be several episodes commemorating Prism and, celebrating Prism.
And I think that that is an important, brand of content, an an important category of content that is retrospective, that, that summarizes the Panini era.
And it was the point that Josh was making too, the bookend point, the end of an era, sort of the that that now that we have a a completion of the NBA licensed effort of Panini that's that's that, spans back to 02/2010 through 2024, '25, like, now it's concrete.
It's done. Like, now, you know, let's let's let's review it with these new eyes that, that that that with the eyes of finality.
So I I think that's an underdiscovered and underappreciated lane of concentration is is thinking about and and crystallizing what the Panini era meant to the NBA.
And I I think there's an opportunity missed here by tops and fanatics, and I understand that they're literally engaged in ongoing litigation with Panini.
So why would they celebrate them? I mean, it's contentious. It's there's probably all sorts of bad blood there.
But, but nonetheless, there really is an opportunity to truly commemorate and dignify the the Panini's Panini's intellectual contribution, their their IP, their their creative product in the sports card space, there is really an opportunity to celebrate that.
And I'm quite sure that if and when this Topps or Fanatics air run ever concludes, and that's gonna be quite a while.
I believe those licenses are twenty years or something to that effect. That when that ends, they're gonna want somebody to celebrate and commemorate what they did too.
So sort of just that starting that trend, I think, of of of uplifting what came before and and, and building that history and that knowledge base rather than just, well, this is the next new product, you know, so let's start pumping up this now.
But instead, appreciating what came before and dissecting and analyzing it, I think, is a is a worthwhile project. I have a final topic on this thread that I wanna tug on with you.
And mostly, this is me thinking about it in my head and wanna get your opinion. So we're moving I think about everything from a marketing perspective. I it's undeniable. It's just how I think.
And I think about the lack of marketing that and I'm not saying it wasn't anywhere, but just like you compare and contrast the last twenty four months of what we've seen from Topps from a marketing perspective to the last twelve years with Panini, and it's night and day.
Their Topps slash fanatics is extremely aggressive when it comes to marketing. We can talk about Fanatics Fest. We can talk about their use of Tom Brady.
Tom Brady is opening up stores with his name on it all across the country. You're seeing activation with athletes everywhere. It's like every day, there's a new Instagram reel that Topps is producing with an athlete and cards.
I think this is great. I think it's great to get exposure to new audiences through these larger than life athletes. And I I think it's a great strategy. It's the right strategy for this time and place.
My question is, what happens next? Like, what happens next after you've spent all this time, energy, resources, and money on the promotion of your new Topps flagship or Topps Chrome product?
And individuals come in because they saw their favorite athlete promoting it, and they decide to buy in a break, or they decide to go walk into their local l LCS and buy a hobby box or rip packs for the first time.
What what's next? And so that's the question I have, and I wanna get maybe your mindset.
It's like, what needs to be true in order for us to this industry, and I'm speaking specifically for tops and fanatics, to create an environment where you're not just constant it's not like Lemmings.
Like, here, they're going to the light and then falling off the mountain and more are just coming in, but they're actually, like, staying and they're, like, graduating through the system.
And I don't want it to be that, like, programmatic. Like, there's no system, but, like, you're you're their collectors are loving it, and collectors want to learn more, and they're turning to content.
It it just seems like that element. And I I I study all of this, and I look at this every day, and I look at what is being said, and I look at the decisions, and I'm I'm obsessing over it because I'm interested in it.
But that is one piece that is so critical that I and and I will give tops a a high grade on their presentation thus far, but, like, that's the question I have I have to ask.
It's like, what next? Like, we're getting all these people in. What next? So I don't I I would love to get your perspective, either one of you, both of you on, like have you seen what's next?
Like, do you have any thoughts what's next? Is this a gap? Because right now, it's it's really sexy. It's highlights. It's, people smiling.
It's Instagram accounts that are going viral. It's the social media. It's the pumping. It's the excitement, which is what they should be doing. But it's like, after that shoe drops, what are we doing? So that's my question.
Like, what are your observations? Is this a gap you see? I'd love to get your perspective. Either one of you jump in. I think you synthesize a lot of the the proper answers and the way that we're all thinking about this.
None of us are gonna have the answers, but just listening to you sort of go through what you think is coming, I think, is what we're all trying to do and trying to get our arms run as best we can.
I think the obvious thing for me is that the breakers are just gonna, like, completely forget about Panini and just go all in on ops.
Like, everyone's gonna want to, be the biggest fans of tops and fanatics because they're gonna want to get that supply in their stores. They're gonna wanna get it for their breakers.
And so there's just gonna be a huge shift away from Panini completely. It's gonna all go towards tops. The repacking stuff will probably be a slower shift, but it'll eventually occur in in a similar fashion.
The question here is, like, what happens to the collector? Do the collectors try to balance finishing up their Panini runs with, like, being excited about, new products with their favorite players?
Do they do they focus only on Panini to let things settle with tops before we know exactly what their products are, which I think is probably a smart move.
If you look at the first three years of Panini, there wasn't even Prism. So, like, you might wanna give it a few years if you're thinking about it in terms of, in terms of that. So those are the things I'm thinking about right now.
Chris, do you have any remarks? I agree completely. And I've I think, I I think that the key to sustain like, when you were talking about the Tom Brady card shops and how exciting it is, and it and it 100% is.
And but my next thought was, like, what are those card shops gonna look like in five years?
Are those gonna be ghost towns that are hollowed out and just have, you know, boxes on the shelves, but, there's no connection to Brady and just sort of it was something that was done using name brand and marketing, or will there be substance there?
Will Brady go visit these stores multiple times per year and have events there and sort of put some real substance and meaning behind his name being on the the sign outside.
So I think about that, and I I think I think the point that Josh made about, you know, we sort of let's let's watch how many how how much you know, because breakers create a lot of content in this space that makes its way to reels and social media.
And how much of that content, you know, we've been fed lines about how great all these different Panini products are. Is all that just gonna stop now that, that, that Panini is no longer providing current products?
I think it probably is. So who's gonna pick up the slack there now that, that that I would say now there's opportunity for collectors to to to seize control of forming the narratives around Panini's products.
And then the the at the end of the day, the question that tops and fanatics have to ask themselves, especially being long term participants in this, is how do we make sure that the product that we're providing, which is the experience of opening and collecting and buying and selling and trading sports cards, is a net positive on people's lives such that they return back to it day after day and they don't get burned out and that they don't leave?
You know? How do we make sure that, that there is no cliff for the lemons to fall off?
So that's that's the question they have to figure out. To me, the answer is is really simple. It's it's just to make the make sure ensure through all means possible that the collecting experience is a net positive for the collectors.
And, but, but doing that is is that's that's that's what they have to figure out. They have to figure out how to do that.
This has been a hearty episode. Before I let you go, do you guys have any cards you wanna talk about? Any recent pickups that have landed on your doorstep recently? Oh, yeah. I have one. I have, like, five or six in transit.
Just this new world we live in where you buy a card and you get it four weeks later is You forget about it, though. It's like Christmas, though. That's what I've learned. Some of them I literally will forget.
Like, it'll show up and be like, oh, wow. I didn't know I bought that. Alright. I have one. 2013, Panini Prism Black Finite Julio Jones. I actually own so you mentioned that I did the football thing in a previous life.
I own this one in that previous life, and it was the only one on one that I bought in that first, in that first run through my football journey, and I just had to get it back.
So that's my one for the day. I amazing card. I once had a Matt Ryan 2013 black finite one of one, and I'm really upset that I no longer own that card for a variety of reasons. But how nice are those, 2013, Finites? Yeah.
The, 2013 gold LeBron was always, like, the one Panini card that I wanted. I did own that for a while. It was always my favorite year for basketball. And, so the black finite for football, obviously, takes it another step up for me.
Chris, anything on your end? Yeah. I brought this card. This card, I think, goes really nicely with the theme of this of what I've been talking about on this episode.
So the card I'm showing is the nineteen ninety nine two thousand Master Collection, one of a kind, card number m 13 Michael Jordan.
So the like, this Michael Jordan project has what's one of the most fun things about it for me, this like, chasing Michael Jordan one of ones, is that his one of ones coincided with the first one of ones ever and with a lot of experimentation and innovation that was going on in the sports card hobby and sports card manufacturing.
So almost every early Michael Jordan one of one is a first of something, which is really fun.
And, also, there's a lot of, like sometimes you uncover things that go against hobby mainstream narratives, and that's this is a card that does that.
So nineteen ninety nine two thousand Master Collection, contrary to common belief, is the first high end basketball product.
And, there are contemporaneous, there's contemporaneous documentation of, of those boxes retailing anywhere from 2,500 to 3,000. Some people have also said that they eventually would retail around 750 to a thousand dollars.
But so that was somewhere was the range. But whether it was $750 or whether it was $3,000, the $992,000 master collection was the first high end basketball product.
And within that high end basketball product, the first one, there were only twenty three one of ones made, period.
And they are the one of a kind insert set. And the one of a kind insert set from that product is especially interesting because it doesn't have any other versions.
There's not a base version. There's not a number to 100. There are just 23 cards in that set. They each have a one of one, and that's it.
They are true masterpieces. There are no other copies of these anywhere. And so that is what this card is. This is the card 13 for that 23 card insert set from the one from the nineteen ninety nine two thousand master collection.
These these are the only one of ones for the first ever high end basketball product, which I think is a pretty cool story. But I'm not surprised that both those cards are incredible cards.
Thank you everyone for tuning in and listening to this dialogue here on card letter confidential. This was a fun episode. Chris, Josh, always appreciate the time. Thanks, Brett. Thank you, sir.