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The Thin Veil is a show for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of Palestine—and what Palestine can reveal about the systems shaping our world. Hosted by musician/activist and anti-Zionist Jew Ezra Lipp, who was raised in a Zionist ecosystem and is now, as always, on a continuing journey of learning and unlearning.
Through long-form conversations with historians, journalists, artists, activists, and people with lived experience, the show explores Palestine not in isolation, but as a window into questions of power, history, identity, media, ideology, resistance, and the stories we inherit about the world around us.
Coming up on The Thin Veil. His whole argument is critiquing that Palestinians haven't found the perfect way to resist their oppression to satisfy the colonizers. The injustice is valid because the response to that injustice is inappropriate, and therefore we place the blame on the subjugated people that are experiencing injustice rather than placing it where it belongs on the system that produces this injustice.
Well, hello and welcome back to The Thin Veil. I am your host, Ezra Lipp, along with my co-host Esther Azar And we are very happy to join you today. If you are a first-time listener, welcome to the show. The Thin Veil is a show that explores what happens when inherited narratives begin to crumble and when the veil begins to lift.
These are conversations mainly centered around Palestine, Zionism, anti-Zionism. This is part of a new segment we are doing called The Thin Veil Unfiltered, although may- maybe this is just The Thin Veil. I don't know. We might drop the unfiltered at some point. What do you think, Esther? This is part of the unveiling.
I think this is part of the unveiling. This is part of the unveiling. Yeah. And, and you had a great thing to talk about, and I wanna get to that in a second. But before we do that, I just wanna say leave a rating and review wherever you're listening to the show on Patreon. You can become a monthly subscriber.
You can support our work. You can give a one-time tip or donation on Ko-fi, like and subscribe on YouTube, all that, the normal podcast stuff. It really helps get the word out there. And we have a great conversation somewhat planned for you today. But Esther, you did leave me a voice note the other day talking about this Thin Veil idea, and I wanted to explore that with you 'cause I, I thought that was really wonderful.
Do you wanna talk about- Yeah ... what the Thin Veil means to you? Yeah. We got a comment on last week's episode saying that some of our points were delayed and that we could've gotten to our point faster, and it got me thinking about the way that these conversations happen and the way that we operate in a capitalist world that demands productivity and also, like, that we should be quick and have all the answers and know and be authoritative in our thinking.
And actually, for me, this, this podcast is part of the thin veil is knowing that we're uncovering even the depths of this topic, and that means that it's gonna be a process, and we wanna bring you in on that process, that our thinking is developing as we go, and we're constantly uncovering layers, unveiling things so that we get a better understanding.
And we think that in order to... I think, I shouldn't say we. I think that in order to unlearn Zionism, part of the process is hearing the grappling and being engaged with it. What do you think, Ezra? I'm with you 100%, and I love that. That is the- I love when you're with me 100%. Yeah. That, I love that that's your framing because that has definitely been my framing.
And we should say we also have gone through our own personal evolutions and backgrounds coming to where we are today. So we're very open to the idea that our thinking is still evolving as, as it should be. Should we get to the main kind of focus of today's episode? Was- or was there something else you wanted to talk about before that?
Um, I did have a passing thought, but now of course I can't remember it That's why it's called a passing thought, because it came and went sorry. Yes. Okay. Yes. Cut that out. You don't like when I stick out my tongue? That's not appropriate? No, I meant cut out my dad joke Oh, no, that's not getting cut out.
Okay. All right. We thought we would talk about what I would describe as some sophisticated or arguably sophisticated liberal Zionist hasbara, which I think is some of the most insidious, uh, hasbara out there. And this is a clip by someone named Haviv Rettig Gur. He is a senior analyst at The Times of Israel.
He's Middle East analyst at Barry Weiss's Free Press. He's Israeli. He was born in Jerusalem, but he lived in the United States. He was a combat medic in the IDF, and he has his own podcast called Ask Haviv Anything, which I have m- my issues with. And we have one clip here that he has shared from his podcast on social media, and just thought we'd play some of the clip and go through some of his main arguments and talking points and say what we think about it.
Does, is that a, does that make work for you, Esther? Yeah, that sounds good. Okay, here we go. So the main question Haviv is answering, if you're listening and not watching, is this question presumably from a listener: "Haviv, will you ever speak about the extensive shortcomings of Israeli policy as well, or is everything always the Palestinians' fault?"
Here's his answer. That's a great question. I've written essays, given talks on Israeli mistakes, on Israeli crimes. I have a podcast episode just from a week ago on Israeli shootings outside food distribution centers. The military rule over Palestinians is not sustainable and not moral. And I've talked and written about what I consider to be outright terrorism, which is the violence of extremist Israelis against innocent Palestinians in various places in the West Bank.
So yes, absolutely. Everything about Israel is fair game. Every policy, every idea, every concern. I have written quite a bit about the mistakes of this government and sometimes the cruelties that I think some government policies represent. I, I think the first thing I want to say is that I can hear him critiquing the government and critiquing West Bank settlers, but I don't hear him critiquing the system.
So that's the first thing. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that, I'd say, is a very common Zionist tactic, where they're constantly calling out individual politicians, constantly calling out the settler movement or certain policies without critiquing the structure that has produced all these things, and not seeing it as a structure that it has indeed produced these things consistently over 80 years.
So that is the first hasbara tactic that I think we could both draw attention to. That in the global campaign, I think a terrible mistake is being made. Instead of a campaign against Israeli actions, there's a campaign against Israel's existence, its legitimacy, whether this people is fake or real, whether a people could possibly survive, or because it's fragile, because it's fake, because it's colonialist, we could just push it a little more and be a little more violent against it, and it'll eventually evaporate like the French fled from Algeria and the British fled from Kenya.
This idea that delegitimizing us is a path forward, that I think is the great problem and crisis. Not any specific Israeli mistakes, not any specific Israeli crimes, but this one terrible idea that the Jews of Israel don't deserve a state, and ultimately because they don't deserve it, they can't sustain it, and ultimately because the, of this internal fragility of illegitimacy will fall.
Okay, what you got? I don't actually know what I have. Some of his words sound like he's projecting a little bit. I would say his main kind of argument here is that the pro-Palestinian movement, the anti-Zionist movement wants Israel destroyed. They want all the people to flee, um- Yeah, but that argument that the pro-Palestine movement wants Israel destroyed, that's just a fallacy of, let me- Well, yeah
some, let me say it differently. Okay. Wait, let me say it differently. Israel, the settler colonial state, the ethno state, yes, that they want destroyed. Correct? Right. Yes. But- Correct ... Jews, they're not saying that Jews should be destroyed. They're not saying, I don't know how to say this, I'm a little struggly.
Like post October 7th, three years into a genocide, I think that people are rightly struggling with how are they going to live with Israelis that have committed genocide. Yeah. I think, I think that's an honest and normal response. But before this point, the Palestinian Freedom Movement has always been about creating a country for all people.
Yes. And this concept that Zionists throw out constantly that those of us on the left are fighting for destruction of the Jewish people, that's just, it's just nonsense. And- Yes ... they keep repeating it. We are fighting for the destruction or the restructuring of a system that prioritizes an ethno-state for Jewish people over the rights of Palestinians and other non-Jewish people.
Uh- I, I wanna question you because you used the word restructuring, but are you saying that you think that the Israeli system can be modified? No, no. I'm saying the whole Zionist thing needs to be something else. Dismantled. I'm not, I'm... Yeah, dismantled. I'm not saying it could be reformed to still prioritize the Jewish ethno-state in any way, no.
Thanks for clarifying. Yeah. Is that clear? Yeah, that's, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So this is just a common Hasbara tactic conflating the idea that the destruction of a political system, political ideology, Zionism, is calling for the mass expulsion of all the Jews, all, all the Jewish Israelis that live there.
You know who it's a mistake for? You know who it's a problem for? You know who it's a crisis and a disaster for? Not the Jews. 90% of the Jews of Israel are the grandchildren of refugees. They know their story. They know they're not going anywhere. They know that all this talk about them being settler colonialists like the New Zealanders, they know that's all fake, and they know that none of it matters.
Palestinians don't know it. Palestinians are taught and educated and promised by their own elites and ideological factions, by the pro-Palestinian campaign around the world, and instead of talking about what Israel does wrong, insists on talking about Israel being, in itself, a great crime. Its existence as a self-determined Jewish people with its own language and culture being a crime, somehow a cunningly able to double down on- Pause again.
Okay. 'Cause they constantly say that the Palestinian people are illegitimate, that there is no such thing as Palestine- Yeah, yeah ... that there are no Palestinian people, that there never was, Palestine didn't exist. Okay, so- Yeah, this is all projection. It's all inverse projection, yeah. Yeah. A country, a nation, a people can be illegitimate.
That very idea has driven Palestinian politics to never really be able to double down on an end to war. Because of a, a- an enemy that is just on the cusp- I love that the Palestinian people are the ones that are considered unable to end the war. Yep. It's kind of insane. It's just an insane analysis. I don't understand.
This guy, he knows his stuff, right? I don't, the cognitive dissonance is just incredible. I don't understand how he could say this stuff. Well- The Palestinians are not the ones with the weapons. Yeah. Yeah. And again, the big conflation that they don't criticize what Israel does, but it insists that their existence is itself a great crime.
Well, the founding of Israel was a great crime. The Nakba was a great crime. The whole country was predicated on a great crime. That very idea has driven Palestinian politics to never really be able to double down on an end to war, because if a, a, an enemy that is just on the cusp of being overturned, that's not when you stop the war.
And Hamas has promised Palestinians for four decades that the Jews are on the cusp of falling, and nothing in Palestinian politics has ever come forward and said, "No, they're not. They're here. They have nowhere else to go." I'll say, and th- this is just that a, a, a whole part of Israel's population is literally trying to get people to make Aliyah, that literally can live and do live in other places.
Um, a, a lot of the settlements on Palestinian lands are filled with Americans and Europeans, like the whole birthright trips. It is all about let's get as many people who are already fine living where they are, in J- Jewish people with safety and security, let's get them to continue this colonial project.
They have no other land, and therefore, if we stop shooting at them, if we stop threatening to murder all their children, which is what Israelis hear from Hamas constantly for four decades, we might actually win this. I wanna talk about one, one thing. This idea that Palestinians are living with this concept that they're on the cusp of this war ending or this shift happening, I, I just wanna bring up the word sumud, and my understanding of the word sumud for Palestinians, which my understanding is that it talks about steadfastness and their commitment to, to the land, and to their lineage, and to fighting this fight.
And nowhere in there do I hear this sense of like, "Oh, we're just about to get it." In fact, i- if anything, I hear this like the knowing that this is gonna be a long and hard fight, and we still exist. We are still gonna fight, and we are still gonna stay in the land, and we're still gonna have children, and we're still gonna tend our land, even as settlers are ripping it out from under us, even as we're being bombed.
We are gonna do everything and anything to steward this land that, that is their home and has been for centuries. It's offensive to me that he would make a claim like this when Palestinians have worked so hard and for so long fighting for their freedom and for the actual values of indigenous practice that they have lived with and cultivated and created in order to take care of the land.
Absolutely. And again, it presupposes that their whole struggle is about Israeli expulsion as opposed to Their own self-determination, having equality in their homeland. I think this is something that we can't stress enough, and th- this is maybe a little tangential to this focus of the video, but I feel like there is this idea amongst Zionists that it is either about Israeli self-determination or about Palestinian self-determination, and then the most kind of peacenik liberal Zionist people say, "Oh, well, you know, it's about both people having self-determination."
But when they're talking about that, is- Israeli self-determination is really describing a system of Israeli domination, where they have their own sets of rights a- on a certain amount of territory. Where when Palestinians talk about self-determination, it is about not one ethnicity or one religious group or one set of laws dominating.
It is about i- the, the Palestinian version is that all people living in equality. So it is not this binary that Zionists try to portray it as. It is the, the Zionists are creating this binary. The, the Palestinians are saying, "No, no one should get to exercise exclusive rights." So that drives me crazy. I want to say a couple of things to that.
Okay. One is somebody wrote about thinking about Zionism as an action rather than an identity in response to last week's video. And I remembered that I oftentimes say that I follow Ibram X. Kendi's thinking around racism, that I can't say I'm not racist, but I can take anti-racist action. And so- Yeah ... when I hear language like from the river to the sea, my Zionist parts immediately panic.
Hmm. But then my healed parts are able to say, "Sweetheart, that's not what it means. It doesn't mean- Hmm ... destroy the Jewish people." Actually, it's such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful phrase, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, because it's for everybody. Yes. And, and it's a return to the way that it was before colonial systems arrived and, and used a divide and conquer tactic and offered chosenness to one group of people, Jewish people, against the Muslim and Christian, Christian groups, like they did in Algeria.
The French gave Jews French citizenship, but didn't give that French citizenship to Muslims and Christians in Algeria, and destroyed the Jewish community in effect. Because even though the Jews got privileges in Algeria, they destroyed their interconnection- Yeah ... the Muslim, to the Muslim world. And that happens in Palestine as well, where Palestinian Jews lived alongside their Muslim and Christian neighbors i- in general peace.
And it is exactly the same reason this, this kind of divide and conquer, this dual loyalty, which created such turmoil outside of Palestine in, in the Arab world, in the SWANA region, because all of a sudden it created all this friction with their neighbors that they had coexisted with for all these years.
Yeah. Um- Now because everybody became suspect. Yeah. Because Zionism keeps claiming that they're operating for Jews across the world. Yeah. When- And it is, it is doing this now in this country, and we are seeing an increase in anti-Semitism as J- the Jewish world insanely doubles down on this ideology that more and more people are seeing as crazy.
Yes. All right, moving on. Because the justification for military rule, the justification for the security policies of Israel, will be something we can finally seriously push back against within Israeli politics. Palestinians have tried one strategy of liberation in the 20th century, the violent, never-ending terror campaigns against the colonialists, like in Algeria, and they've tried it and tried it, and it failed and failed for almost 100 years now.
So this is, uh, just a bald face lie. And projection. I mean, it is, it is, it is despicable. It's projection. Yeah. Say, say more. Uh, Palestinians have tried one strategy of liberation in the 20th century, the violent, never-ending terror campaigns against the colonialists. Let's actually switch out those words and say Israelis have tried one strategy of domination in the 20th century, the violent, never-ending terror campaigns against the native population That's the truth Absolutely.
Absolutely. And not to mention, this is not at all an accurate description of Hamas as a resistance movement. Hamas has engaged in multiple negotiations. Hamas has offered multiple ceasefires that Israel has broken every time. Um, Hamas has brought forth a two-state solution, for crying out loud, which Israel has rejected.
To just describe them as illegitimate, violent terrorists that haven't tried other tactics, which also discounts all the other non-Hamas Palestinian resistance tactics, is just not factual. Palestinians have tried every single strategy under the sun. They've tried boycotts, they've tried demonstrations, they've tried political negotiations, they've tried the Great March of Return.
If people aren't familiar, in 2018, 2019, it was a grassroots-organized demonstration that happened in Gaza where for, I believe o- over a year and a half, every Friday, Palestinians marched to the surveillance wall, the perimeter of their open-air prison that Israelis have, have constructed, d- did massive demonstrations to try to get the world's attention, and Israeli snipers sat on the other side of the militarized border fence and literally sniped off 200 protesters, journalists, medics, just waited and shot people, murdered them, that were posing no harm to them.
They wounded, I think, 36,000 people in that period. They created the l- largest group of amputees in modern history in that period, and Palestinians remained nonviolent while they literally got sniped off one by one. So this is just a bald-faced lie, and he should know better because this is propaganda at its worst.
I don't know what else to say. He should be ashamed of himself. He should be. Ask Aviv nothing. I noticed that when you were talking that my system got really overwhelmed- Yeah ... when I was hearing you describe it, and I also noticed that you laughed when you were s- talking about- I know. I noticed that too
the horrors, and I was just thinking about how our systems get flooded when we hear this stuff, and my-- m- I laugh too sometimes when I'm talking about the atrocities, and it's like a, it's a, like a response to calm our systems down. And so I just wanna offer us both an opportunity to just slow down maybe and take a deep breath and just come back here into our bodies.
And I would invite the same for our listeners 'cause this is heavy stuff. Yeah, and I just wanna say, let me just take a breath first. Yeah.
I appreciate you calling attention the fact that I laughed as I was describing this horror, and I just in case that could be misconstrued, I want to name that. I think the, the, the laugh response was just laughing of the absurdity of the injustice when something is so horrific, it is like you can't... You couldn't create this, this horror.
You couldn't write this horror into existence. The absurdity of the injustice is so great that, yeah, it, it triggers This laugh response I don't think actually, like, that... Like, I, I understand the intellectual, the desire to explain it, and I understand what, what you're saying. I agree with you. I do not think that you were attempting to be insensitive in that moment.
I think it's literally an overwhelm in our system when we hear- Yeah ... the insanity of it, and our body just bubbles up a reaction.
Yeah. Okay. Grows. Israel strengthens. Maybe it's not working because there's a categorical misunderstanding of the enemy. There was a second strategy of liberation that was tremendously successful in the 20th century.
Gandhi, King. You face an enemy that you do not de-legitimize, but validate. You say to that enemy, "You exist. You're real. You're a people. There's nothing I can do about that. And so I'm not gonna come to murder your kids-" Wait "... because a people with no world-" Okay. First of all, I love the Martin Luther King reference-
'cause this country is free from all racism, and- Oh, yeah. Yeah. It worked here. And Black civil rights resistance was a multi-pronged strategy. Any gains they made were a result of more than just King. I'll just say that. And, and at the, at the end of King's life, before he was assassinated, he started to change his tune about that non-violence.
I will say, I think there is this underlying inversion to his argument that needs naming, which is basically what he's doing is saying the problem lies in the response to injustice, the response to oppression. And his critique is that if only they could have a better response. His whole r- argument is saying that the, the injustice is valid because the response to that injustice is inappropriate, and therefore, we place the blame on the subjugated people that are experiencing injustice, rather than placing it where it belongs on the system that produces this injustice.
Help me understand what you're pointing to. I'm saying that his whole argument is critiquing that the problem is Palestinians haven't found the perfect way to resist their oppression. And therefore, they're deserving of their continued oppression because they haven't found the correct ways to resist their oppression, which satisfies the colonizers, which satisfies the people in the systems maintaining that injustice, maintaining that oppression, rather than redirecting the blame towards the people and the systems that produce that injustice in the first place.
So for instance, if I could take that argument further- Wait. Let me just see if I'm- He... Okay Let me just see if I'm getting this. Sure. Sure. So, so what I hear you saying is that Haviv is arguing that Palestinians, if they had only gotten it right, then they wouldn't be dealing with this. And in doing and in saying that, he's ignoring the fact that they live in a apartheid ethno-state genocidal That they're living as colonized people under apartheid and subjugation.
He's not critiquing that system as the main source of injustice. He's saying it is just their imperfect opposition to it, which is the problem. As if saying, if King hadn't come along, and if only Malcolm X had been the dominant leader of the civil rights movement, and it didn't satisfy this liberal white, you know, idea of non-violence to apartheid in this country, to Jim Crow, that somehow Jim Crow and apartheid would still be acceptable because, well, sorry, they didn't find the best way to resist it.
Rather than saying, no, the, the blame lies with the systems of domination and oppression, and it is not up to us to say what is the correct form of resisting that. And again, just to, I can't state enough that Palestinians have tried every single tactic under the sun, and they have all been de-legitimized by Israel and the Zionist movement in the US and all over the world.
I think that w- that argument about Martin Luther King and, oh, acceptable protest- Yeah ... drives me fucking crazy. Yeah. Who and how are we allowed to protest? But here's what I'm confused about. Mm-hmm. He says, "Maybe it's not working because there's a categorical misunderstanding of the enemy." What is he talking about?
That Palestinians don't understand? Who's the enemy? Palestinians? The, he's saying, if my interpretation is that he's talking about saying it's just making, again, the argument that- Oh, that we're, oh ... Palestinians' grave mistake is de-legitimizing the Israeli people, and that they're here to stay, and blah, blah, blah.
But is he saying because there's a categorical misunderstanding of the enemy, is if we had this liberal policy of peaceful, a peaceful protest, then the Israelis, he misunderstands that the Israelis are really rational beings that would- Yeah ... actually create a democracy for Palestinians? Is that- Yeah, g-
what he's implying? That's what he's implying. G- let me keep going, 'cause he says it more clearly, and it is just, c- yeah, you'll see. It's crazy. Maybe it's not working because there's a categorical misunderstanding of the enemy. There was a second strategy of liberation that was tremendously successful in the 20th century.
Gandhi, King. You face an enemy that you do not de-legitimize, but validate. You say to that enemy, "You exist. You're real. You're a people. There's nothing I can do about that. And so I'm not gonna come to murder your kids, because a people with nowhere else to go whose children you just murdered are not gonna listen.
They're gonna go to war, and they're gonna f- look l- exactly like the Israelis look. But I'm gonna tell you, you can't rule over me. I'm gonna make you ashamed of your policies, and I'm gonna stop shooting at you so that the policies are no longer justified." That kind of a direction, Palestinians would win in about a week.
So it's- I don't even understand. Why is he pretending this is about Palestinians when he's really talking about Israelis? That's what I don't understand. I mean, it, the Palestinians are gonna stop shooting at Israelis. Like, what a logical inversion it is- And so I'm not gonna come to murder your kids, because people with nowhere else to go, whose children you just murdered, are not gonna listen.
Yeah. How many children have died in Gaza?
What the fuck? I'll also say, and th- this is just that, uh, I mean, Palestinians are the ones with nowhere else to go. It is insulting of everyone's intelligence, and yet people listen to this guy. I wanna say- And if anyone knows this guy, I'll just say real quick, you can come on the show, Haviv. We'll talk to you.
I, I wanna say this thing though, because I feel like I, I overstepped here when I read this. This is what Haviv says, and I said that Palestinians could say this, and it says, "And so I'm not gonna come to murder your kids because the people with nowhere else to go whose children you just murdered are not gonna listen."
And I said that we could flip that on its head. Yeah. Haviv is saying that's Israelis. But the thing that I wanna say is that Palestinians are willing to listen, and the colonial mindset says constantly that Palestinians are the enemy, when in reality, Palestinians have always lived together and were welcoming of the Jews that came into Palestine.
It- the problems arose when it became a colonial system. Yeah. And this narrative that keeps getting repeated comes from a tra- a trauma place where the, where colonial systems traumatize us, and so we can only see a binary. It's either me or you. That's how colonial systems work. Mm-hmm. That's how it worked in this country, too.
That's why the s- the colonists in this country couldn't live with the Native peoples here and genocided them, because they couldn't imagine, Europeans can't imagine living in a world with the other. It's why they couldn't imagine having Jews as equal citizens in Europe, and that's what the Zionists bring with them.
Yeah, and it- Is that, is that sense that isn't actually accurate, isn't actually a value in, in the SWANA region, which is where we come up against all of this conflict because the Western world keeps saying, "We can't live together. There's no opportunity here." That's what Zionism keeps saying. "We can't live together because they're gonna wanna kill us."
But we live together. Yeah. Whi- which is why, to add to that, this whole kind of Hasbara point, uh, to explain literally means Israeli propaganda, I should say, if anyone's not familiar with that term. It- this whole idea of, oh, the Zionists, the Jews wanted, would accept the partition plan, but the Palestinians wouldn't.
It's like, yes, the Palestinians didn't want it because it didn't make sense to them. They didn't have this idea of we live separately in the land. It's like, no, we can all live together in the land with not one people, one r- ethnicity, or one religion dominating. So this whole idea of partition That's the same like selling New York for a bunch of beads, right?
Like it's the same kind of narrative where like, uh, indigenous peoples here didn't own land. Yeah. Right. Wasn't, it wasn't even a framework to them. It wasn't a con- Yeah, it wasn't- How, how could they even understand they're selling land? What are you talking about? We don't sell land. Yes. Land doesn't belong to us.
So my friend Daniel Klein, who's been on the podcast, has this great Substack essay where he talks about the partition plan and compares it to the story of Solomon and the baby. Do you want to tell that story? Basically, these two women come to Solomon, and one woman says, "This is my child," the other woman says, "It's my child."
And Solomon's solution is to turn to the women and say, "Okay, we'll cut the child in half. You can have half the child, and you can have the other half of the child." And one mother says okay, and the other mother says no, obviously not. And Solomon knows who the mother is. Which I'll just say, as a metaphor as far as land partition, and the point we're trying to make is Palestinians said, "No, don't divide the land," and the Zionists said, "Okay," I think it's brilliant.
Me too. As a story about a baby in half, it actually d- doesn't make any sense. Obviously. It's such a great story because Zionists come in, and we could just talk about the trees that they planted that are not native- Yeah. Yeah ... and have caused so much destruction and fires, and they're still planting these trees.
And Palestinians have been like taking care of these olive trees for generations, and Zionism doesn't care. They just want to- I mean, they destroyed Gaza. Yeah. They obliterated it. It is a toxic waste site. I mean, if Jews- Ecocide ... really feel this connection to Eretz Yisrael so much, if Zionists feel such a deep connection to Eretz Yisrael, then they would want to uplift Palestinians and support them in caring- Yes
for the land. Uh, this whole narrative of like, "Oh, this is our land," but you destroy it. Destroy it. How could you destroy land like that? If it's really the land that God gave us, how the heck could you treat it like this? Yeah. What kind of world is that? It's an abomination. This has been another episode of The Thin Veil.
Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for co-hosting with me, Esther. What kind of prize do I get if I do get this out? You get to leave a rating and review of the show. Have you done that yet? Damn. Calling me out in front of everybody, Ezra? Yeah, you haven't even done it. That is not kind. All right. Just 'cause j- I never, I didn't p- promise...
No, I promise, I'll always be kind. I don't know if you'll get a prize, but, uh, doing good work feels good. I think that's the prize. Aw. No, what? Doing good work feels good. You sound like- Yes. Ugh, just the way you said it. That's why we're doing this. Uh-huh. That's why we're volunteering so much of our time. I, I don't know what you're talking about.
But if you wanna support the show- Doing this work doesn't feel good. It's hard fucking work. It's painful. It is painful, but the alternative of apathy or inaction I think is- Yeah ... is more painful. I agree with you. I, I agree with you. Anyway, thank you as always for listening. Please rate and review the show.
Help us get the word out. If you wanna support the show on Patreon or Ko-fi, we'd really appreciate it.
Thanks for being with us. Yeah, thanks for being with us.