Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Tomorrow can be different from today.
Our lives often leave us feeling hopeless—like nothing will ever change. But perspective is everything. When you know where to look, hope can be found in the spaces and places you least expect.
Join Jason Gore (Lead Pastor of Hope Community Church) for a fresh perspective, practical steps, and weekly encouragement that hope really is possible… even in real life.
If you're truly deconstructing,
and maybe we should talk about what
that means at some point.
Yeah. But if you're truly deconstructing, you're searching
for truth, relentlessly searching for truth,
You're not just trying to tear
something down for the sake of it.
That's something different. That's not deconstruction.
No, that's just leaving the church. Go,
Go. Welcome to
the Hope and Real Life Podcasts with Jason Gore.
Our team is passionate
and committed to bringing you more hope in the everyday
real areas of your life.
If this conversation and content is valuable for you,
please do us a favor, like, subscribe, and even share.
You never know how valuable it could be
to share a little bit of hope with someone else.
Let's get the conversation started.
Welcome to this episode of Hope in Real Life podcast.
And I'm here with my good friend Ben Foot, who, depending on
how we roll the episodes out,
they've already heard one episode with you,
or maybe they haven't yet, who knows?
But if you don't know, Ben is a good friend of mine, uh,
also a pastor, a teacher, uh, a dad and a husband.
And you know, I, I use this regularly when I try to explain
to people, you, you're just one of the most normal guys down
to earth guys that I've ever met in my entire life.
I completely respect that about you.
Um, so thanks for being here with us. Yeah, man.
Thanks family. Again on this episode.
And, um, we're gonna be talking about deconstruction.
Mm-Hmm. And, uh, and what that really means and, and,
and kind of delving into some different areas.
But when we did, uh, in season one, we talked about, uh,
mental health, physical health, emotional health,
and spiritual health worked its way in there as well.
And, and so many of our listeners, uh, many
of 'em are Christians, many of them aren't, um,
on their own spiritual journey.
Um, and so we thought, man, let's just take some time
and recognize what's going on right now.
What is this idea of deconstruction? Is it beneficial?
Is it, is it unhealthy?
Uh, how do we interact
with people that are going through it?
And so, I'd just love to start out by asking, you know,
for the sake of our viewers, for the sake of our listeners,
Ben, why, why is this topic a
deconstruction important to you?
The, this is like, I'm super passionate about this. Yeah.
Um, and about doubt, really deconstruction in my mind is,
uh, people who grew up in the church who are now doubting
the fancy word for that is deconstruction.
Yeah. You know? And the people who didn't grow up in church,
just call it like, I, I doubt.
I don't believe any, any of that stuff. Right.
And I'm passionate about it.
'cause like, I, I did that myself.
The term deconstruction wasn't like in vogue when I did it.
You know? Um, I did it myself.
I felt like there were very few Christian people around me,
um, that were cool with it,
which made it a harder process, you know?
Um, but ultimately at the end of the day, like, I don't get
to where I am today without walking through some really,
really heavy doubt and
searching for truth in the middle of it.
And it came with, with, uh, you know,
it's kind almost like an adolescent, like flipping the bird
to the church phase, you know?
Yeah. Right. But like, I've made it through that
and made it through this doubt to where I am today.
And I just believe that like, some people, not everyone,
but some people have to walk through that.
And I'm passionate because about it.
'cause I, I just feel like the church in general,
like it still doesn't like, know what
to do with that, how to handle it.
And so what's interesting is, I, I,
because I, I agree with you,
and I think there's a lot within the church,
like the moment you say deconstruction, uh,
of the faith we get you,
you hear nervousness, you hear fear.
Yeah. Maybe a bit of anxiety.
And you're, you're kind of saying the opposite.
You're like, Hey, it's possible that this idea
of deconstruction could lead
to a better place for a lot of people.
Can you talk about that? Dude,
That was the biggest gift in my spiritual life,
was deconstruction and doubt.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can get you to a better place. Yeah.
Uh, and, and what do you think that is a result of?
Why could it be better on the other side than it was on,
on this side of deconstruction?
So my story is that I grew, I grew up in church.
I mean, you know, my dad was an elder.
Um, so I was doing the whole like Sunday
and Wednesday evenings,
and, you know, I was there all the time.
Um, but what I had to like deconstruct was I had
to start dismantling.
I had to separate Jesus from religion
and from the church that I grew up in,
and the baggage I carried from that church just
to figure him out whether or not I wanted, whether
or not I believed he existed, whether
or not I believed he was the son of God
and had any value for my life.
Like, I had to separate those two things. Yeah.
Um, and there was a season
where I just threw both of 'em out the window.
I was like, I don't need any of this.
Um, it can get better though,
because a dude had, if you're truly deconstructing,
and maybe we should talk about what
that means at some point.
Yeah. But if you're truly deconstructing, you're searching
for truth, relentlessly searching for truth,
They're not just trying to tear
something down for the sake of it.
That's something different. That's not deconstruction.
No. Let's just leaving the church go,
go leave the church. If that's what you're
Doing. Opposition. Maybe.
Yeah. Uhhuh deconstruction is like, I'm going to
critically think about what I grew up with.
I'm gonna critically think about
what the world is offering me to see if, like, maybe
that's a better way to live my life over here.
And you're just being critical about it,
and you're being honest with
yourself about what you believe.
And it, for me, it led to genuine faith where
what I had before was like family.
I don't know what it was, dude. It was family, heritage,
or, you know, I gotta go to church
because it's not worth the conversation I'm gonna have at,
at lunch later today if I don't, you know, I don't know
what it was, but it wasn't faith.
Right. Um, yeah.
You can get you to a better spot
because you're gonna, at the end of it,
genuinely believe something. Yeah.
Let, let's see. You and I were talking about this
before, uh, a passion I think you and I both have,
but speak to as opposed
to just talking about this idea of deconstruction.
Take a moment, Ben, and talk to the parent
or the friend who has another friend who's going
through deconstruction or, or the parent
or the parent who has a child who comes in
and says, Hey, I don't, I don't really know if I believe
what maybe you think I'm supposed to believe.
Speak to that parent for a moment, just in
how they can approach that situation.
That's where I felt like I got a little bit wounded, um,
with everyone except for my dad.
My dad handled it really well.
Like, I'm will forever be thankful
to the way he handled my doubt.
Um, but like, you gotta take a breath
and realize that like, what, what we say we believe is
that we don't save anybody's soul.
Right. But, but do we really believe that? Yeah.
You know, 'cause there's a lot of times where we're like,
yeah, well, but if my son is going off the rails,
I gotta do something about it.
Yeah. It's like, well, it's, you know,
your responsibility is to relentlessly love
that person in your life who's struggling right now.
Just relentlessly love them. Yeah.
And, and let Jesus work in that person's life. Right.
You know, um, it just so often it turns to like,
either it freaks people out
so they don't wanna talk about it.
Right. Um, so now you've got the elephant in the room
that no one's talking about,
or it leads to like the fancy term for it
as apologetics in Christian world.
Right. Which is really just arguing, you know, it's
With sound arguments, but still
With sound arguments.
Logical. You know, it's a logical debate. Right. You know?
Yeah. Um, so, you know, like, how could God be good
and let bad things happen?
And he's like, well, let me break it down for you that
that's not gonna help the person who's struggling right now.
Yeah. You know, like when I was struggling, I, I didn't need
the logical argument.
I just, I needed some space to be angry
and to feel hurt.
And it would've been nice if I had people who followed Jesus
and were like, yeah, well, yeah.
We'll love you anyway, man. Yeah.
You, you can keep figuring Jesus out here. Right? Like,
Yeah. It's interesting
'cause you, you said it's either one, one
or two, or A or B, and then you've also got this,
or it really looks to me like,
and look, I, my twins are, I have twins that are 15
and I've got another guy who's 12,
and so they're not
deconstructing their faith right now that I'm aware of.
Mm-Hmm. Um, not sure
how I'd handle myself if they got to that place.
I'd like to think that I'd be in a
place of where you are right now.
But I mean, as a pastor right, you've got, um, okay,
you've got kids, but even if you're just a family
that maybe has the family heritage that you talked about,
there's this pressure
to look like our family has everything together
to the outside world.
And then we then in turn, what you see is
that pressure being imposed on the child, which
doesn't help anybody come to a better place. Right.
Well, why, where, where does that pressure come from?
I, yeah. I don't have an answer for it.
I mean, I, I think it's
because we believe that how other people look at us,
well then our identity is in, um, if we're doing a good job
as a parent, and then that marker
or that scoreboard is, are my children doing what it is
that other people expect them to do?
Mm-Hmm. Versus is my school board,
how well am I loving my child
through whatever difficulty Mm-Hmm.
That they're going through.
Do that. That that's, yeah.
That's probably why so many people, myself included,
are deconstructing in the first place.
Right. Yeah. I spent 18 years in a home where I had
to have all my stuff together, or else
I was a bad Christian.
Wow. And again, we talked about this on the other episode,
that is a misunderstanding,
like a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospel is.
Right. You know, like,
you're not going, I don't know
what that is. It's not the gospel,
It's not Christianity Like the, the people who, um,
'cause I love talking with people
and hanging with people who are in the middle
of doubt or deconstructing.
And I, I just love it.
Um, and what I'll say to people a lot is like, dude,
what you're deconstructing is like,
is just the church you grew up in.
Yeah. Or it's that Sunday school leader who was just a
jerk. Right. Clean up my
Language. Well done. Well
Done. Um,
you know, that's why you're not deconstructing Jesus.
Yeah. Like, you're deconstructing all of the baggage
that people like you and me when we're bad at our jobs Yeah.
Put, put on him. Right.
Um, and I tell people, it's like, can I
Just tell you that that's one of the things, like I,
if I have a fear in leadership, I mean, it's kind
of the same thing as a parent, but you're like, I hope I do
a lot of things well, and then I hope the things that I do
that aren't well, that aren't good,
don't mess people up too bad.
Right. And no one gets out of the house,
you know, without some wounds.
Right. And probably people aren't gonna get out
of the churches that we help lead without some wounds,
but the best we can do is to try, try
to aim true and not hurt them.
Yeah. You know? Um,
but I don't know, dude, half the people more than that,
that I talk to who are struggling with doubt
and deconstructing, it's like, the metaphor I use is like,
dude, if my son Micah wants to learn
to play baseball, that's what he's doing now.
I love baseball. Grew up playing it, you know,
I watch 162 games a year, you know, I love baseball.
Yeah. Um, and if he wants to learn to play baseball,
we go out together and he's got the mitt on
his head and he's kicking the ball around.
It's like, dude, I don't know what
you're playing, but it's not baseball.
Um, and I don't know what, what people grew up in,
but it, it wasn't, it wasn't Jesus centric
or Christianity. Man. Who's
Your favorite baseball team?
Cleveland guardians.
Cleveland Guardians. How's that for going for you?
Well, dude, they haven't won a World Series since 1948.
1948. I've been alive. But you knew the year
Though. Yeah, I know. The year.
You knew the year. I'm 38 years old.
Let's, let's do it. And I've not seen them
win anything. Cool. Dude.
We are going to take a brief break from our show
to let you know about a resource
that we are making available to you.
If you're looking for a resource on personal development
or spiritual enrichment, then you've gotta check this out.
It's a free tool. Now, free to our listeners. Free is good.
It was not free for us to create,
but free for our listeners made.
Specifically for anyone who's looking
for a bit more hope in their everyday life, listen
to the features, daily devotions, parenting tips,
financial resources, marriage insights.
There's even a community
where you can share prayer requests.
If you've got things going on in your life and you can see
and know that other people are praying for you,
this is gonna be available in early January.
We'll make sure everybody knows.
Stay tuned, keep looking for it. We'll have it out.
But listen, tomorrow can be better than today
and hope is possible even in real life.
Let's get back to the show. You know, I've got one
of these questions written down is deconstructing trending?
It's like, okay, yes. People are doing it.
We're hearing about, so let's, let's put that on a side.
Why? What are the reasons, what are the reasons?
'cause this could be good for people that might be in
that place, like maybe re really thinking through the why
for them, or it could be valuable for people
who say you are a follower of Jesus.
Like, you need to be aware of why other people Mm-Hmm.
Would be doing this. So what are,
what are some of the reasons
I I I the terms trending,
but people have been doing this forever.
Thank you for saying that, by the way. Yeah.
Isn't, this is a really great point. This
isn't, this isn't new, right.
Um, there's just like a new cool term for it. Yeah.
Um, so people have been doing it forever.
I think that the reason the term is trending,
and maybe it feels like there's more people in
that like young adult age range who are, are doing this,
I think is two big reasons.
Um, one of 'em is the internet just gave us easy access
to all kinds of different worldviews.
Yeah. Um, and that's even different from, from my time,
like the internet when I was like at the heart
of deconstruction or doubt, like, uh,
it was still the thing that you had to do.
It made all the noises when it
started, it took forever to get on.
Wasn't worth it. Right. The page
Is going, Don, don, don, Don. Right.
So I had it, I had exposure to the worldviews of people
who just happened to be around me.
And now it's like, man,
you can go engage in anything you want.
So the sandbox got bigger for the way
that you can think and view the world.
Uh, I think that's one key piece.
And another thing, dude, is our politics in
America are outta control.
Yeah. And there's been this in breeding, in my opinion,
of not saying this is hope, community church's opinion,
in my opinion, there's been this like really gross in
breeding of Christianity
and politics that has, has
rightfully made some people go like,
I don't know if I want anything to do with this. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think those are two big, kind of key factors
for why it seems like it's happening more than it
did even just 10 years ago. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think I'd add a subset to that one, or,
or it could be his own point of like, how,
how about the church just not well representing the things
of scripture or the things of Jesus, you know?
And so whether that looks like, Hey,
it seems like the church should probably care for those
inside of its community, not just be inclusive.
Mm-Hmm. Like that. And we don't see that.
Maybe we need to deconstruct that.
Or Hey, you know, leader made a bonehead decision,
so the church is just filled with hypocrites.
Well, I mean, kind of, that's kind of the,
maybe not hypocrites,
but again, the basis of Christianity is recognizing we don't
have all our stuff altogether.
Mm-Hmm. But then there's this Yeah,
but you said this and they did something else.
And so I think that people
see that like, may, wait a minute.
Maybe, maybe there are some things that we need, uh,
to deconstruct you, you said,
or, uh, in our pre-production, I didn't realize this,
but I, I said, you know, um, introduce you as a husband,
as a dad, as a friend, as a pastor.
And we moved on.
I said, yeah, you haven't written any books yet.
Just kind of joking around. And you said you're actually in
the process of writing a book
or thinking about writing a book,
or tell me a little bit about that.
Well, that sounds loftier than it is in reality.
I'm, I'm kind of just writing my thoughts down
and it's for someone really close to me that I love
and care for who is starting to throw,
uh, her faith out the window.
And so I'm just kind of writing my own thoughts down.
There's like, if you go
and look at books for people who are deconstructing,
it's pretty much on two pretty extreme ends of the spectrum.
One of them is like, here's why it's a great idea.
You throw this whole thing out. Right.
And I'm not gonna offer that book to her.
And then the other end of the spectrum is real
clinical apologetics.
Yeah. It's like, well, here's why your doubts are,
you know, unfounded.
And it's like, well, that's not really, um, connecting
with the heart of this person
that I know really well who's struggling with her faith.
So, um, it's a family member that I'm just kind
of writing my own thoughts down about faith for Yeah.
Yeah.
If you had somebody that was deconstructing,
and some of this may or may not be in those thoughts,
but, you know, if we do have a listener that
that is deconstructing,
especially coming from someone who's been there
and has gone through that and seemingly like, sounds like
enjoys talking to other people that have,
what advice would you give them?
I would tell 'em that
what you are doing right now is faith.
Hmm. And everyone else says it's not
what you're doing is faith, um, work,
work it out in fear and trembling.
Like be honest with yourself.
Uh, Jesus, where did Jesus ask for blind faith?
Where did he ever ask?
Just like, shut up and just do what I'm telling you. Yeah.
He didn't, and he, he hung with these disciples
for ev every day for three years.
One of 'em just straight up betrays him. Another one.
Peter betrays him. Like he denies him a couple times.
Um, Thomas of course is like, I don't,
I don't believe any, I don't believe this happened.
Like, I need to not till I touch his wounds.
Like he spent a lot of time with these three guys every day.
Right. We're very different than than going
to church every week.
Right. Like they ate dinner
With him probably closer to Jesus than some of us are.
Yes. Like physically
With Jesus and Yeah.
And part of their journey of faith is doubt. Yeah.
Like what you're doing is faith.
I'm sorry that the church tells you it's not. Um, it is.
And the way Jesus reacts to all
of those people is in grace and relationship.
Yeah. What's he do the first time he sees Peter again
after Peter denied, he makes him breakfast, dude, right?
Yep. Come eat waffles with me. Yeah.
He's not sitting there going like,
until you have a few key points figured out
and a few stances you've taken based on what I say is true,
we can't be in relationship. He doesn't say that
If we're being true to the text,
I think it was fish, not waffles.
But I mean, I just wanna, you know, waffles
Would've been better, man. It would've been,
I have to teach that choice.
He was, Jesus was keto,
he was not doing the whole thing doing.
Um, how about, how about resources?
I mean, you men, it doesn't sound like you got a lot
because you said someone's over
here and then one's over here.
I, I, I would say like, you need to go find, I know
that most Christians out there are, are really uncomfortable
with what you're walking through,
but that, that's not all of us, man.
Yeah. Like, you've got to find someone
that you can ask these questions to.
Yeah. Like, email me, man.
Like, I don't, even if you don't know me,
you live on the other side of the country.
Like, find someone that's
Bad baseball team@gmail.com because that Yeah.
Perpetual losers. Uh, we'll put a, a way to, I mean,
we'll put a way to reach out in the show notes.
Yeah. Do it. And so, um, yeah.
I I would say the same thing, man.
I would say if you're beat up on the church, if you're,
if you're deconstructing that, like, don't,
don't, don't look for a building.
Don't, don't look for, um, uh, a model of religion,
but find a person, uh, that in my look, I believe at the end
of the day, if you are seeking truth,
if you're truly seeking truth, um,
I believe in my belief, right?
I know your belief is that, um, Jesus is the truth.
And I believe if you're seeking, you're going to find,
but find someone who, who is actively seeking
that you trust, that you believe like, hey,
they don't act like their life is perfect.
Mm-Hmm. Um, but they do have something to them
and there is something to their faith,
and they're just gonna love you right where you are
and be willing to walk through this thing together
and just see what God does.
And someone you can ask questions to
who doesn't feel like they're,
they're gonna have all the answers all the time.
Yeah. It's okay if someone,
like find the person who's can say like, I don't know, man,
let's go figure that out together.
Yeah. Um, but don't throw, don't throw Jesus out just
because his people suck sometimes. Right? Yeah.
Uh, so here's what I'm hearing.
If I, if I had to kind of summate
and highlight out here, uh, number one, man,
deconstruction can be a healthy part of your faith journey.
Yeah. So here are two guys that are doing their best
to follow Jesus, to love their families well,
to serve their communities well, who can say no, no, no, no
doubt can be an incredibly important part.
Deconstruction, if we wanna use that word,
can be an incredibly beneficial part of your faith journey.
So don't hear anything other than that reconstruct, look
to reconstruct in a healthy way, but man, engage this.
So that's one. The other thing
that I I I heard at the beginning is if, if you're a parent
or if you're a friend of somebody who seemingly is doubting,
who is going through deconstruction, be really careful in,
in how you interact with them.
Don't necessarily try to prove them.
And you, you can have conversations,
but above everything else, love them.
Mm-Hmm. You know, I mean,
the Bible even says you should always be, uh, have a reason
for the hope that you have,
but it also says to do so with gentleness and respect.
Yeah. And those are all aspects. Mm-Hmm. Of love.
So two things. Embrace it, uh, if that's your faith journey.
And then two, let's make sure
that we're loving people really, really well along the way.
One other quick thing Yeah.
That I'd say is key is you have to be honest with yourself.
And so because of that, you have to, you have
to construct something.
Right. Okay. That's good.
Now, now my hope and prayer is
that you construct a worldview
and a way of life based on Jesus.
I love that for you. I it works.
It's the only thing out there that I found that works. Yeah.
But you have to construct something.
And I think the one caution I'd give people
who would say they're deconstructing is, I, I, I meet a lot
of people who say that,
but what they're doing is they've been hurt by church
'cause they put blind faith in it,
and now they're just putting blind
faith in something totally different.
Right. Like, you're not, you're not deconstructing
the new thing you adopted.
Right. You know, you're not te you're not testing that as,
as rigidly as you're testing the faith you grew up with.
So I think that might be the one thing in retrospect I did
well, was like, I'm not gonna blindly accept anything, dude.
I'm going to, I'm gonna dig in
and like relentlessly pursue truth.
Yeah. I'm not gonna passively accept anything. No,
That's good. Because the reality
is, it's, it's very, there's,
you mentioned the media and the things being dumped on us.
Um, there is a worldview right now that does say, Hey,
just whatever your truth is, go find that thing.
And, and that is something I would caution,
I probably would be in error if I didn't at least caution
man, that leads to a dark, devastating place.
Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And so be careful with that.
Reconstruct something. Um, I, I'll say this.
Uh, I know that a lot of our listeners aren't, uh,
might not be Christians, it might not be a part of a church,
but our church, uh, here at Hope,
we just did a four week series on deconstruction.
Mm-Hmm. And so if you're interested in listening to 2, 3, 4,
you know, 30 minute messages, uh, in that, uh,
feel free to engage that.
We'll put the links to that in the show notes.
We'd love to have you check out those resources.
We'll make sure that we've got Ben's info in there as well.
And then of course, if you have other questions, man, hey,
lean into this on deconstruction in the future,
or is it, how does, uh,
what does spiritual health really look like?
Please drop us some comments there as well.
I'm gonna wrap up with one last question for you, Ben.
If you, um, and this is really just for our listeners
to continue to get to know you a bit better,
but, uh, if you, uh, could be anywhere
five years from now in your life, what would that look like?
Man, I want to keep, I love what I get to do as a job.
Yeah. And five years from now, I want
to still be doing that.
And my kids not hate me for it.
Hmm. Yeah. That's big.
Too many pa, too many pastors kids out there who
got burned, man. So
Heading a little close to home here.
Good dad and good pastor would be the prayer man.
Yeah. That's good, man.
As always, thank you for the time together.
Uh, to our listeners, you know, our our desire
for our team here is to bring you hope in the real everyday
moments of your life as it relates
to this idea of deconstruction.
Man, if you deconstruct down to nothing, um,
the reality is nothing does not have an ability to bring.
Life does not have an ability to bring hope.
And so, uh, we're thrilled to be able to be a part, uh,
of your journey and our hope
and our desires to help you build something,
reconstruct something in your life
that actually can take you to a place of hope.
Thanks for being along for the journey.
If there's anything we can do to help
you, please let us know.
Love you guys. We'll see you in the next episode.
You better. Thanks for tuning into this episode
of The Hope in Real Life podcast.
If this content was valued
before you don't forget, like, subscribe, share.
You never know how important it could be
to bring a little hope into someone else's life.
Uh, there's even a place here for you to comment.
We would love to hear from you and hear your feedback.
Until next time, let's keep sharing hope.
Well, hello, hope and real life family.
We want to give you an opportunity
to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas at one
of our family friendly Christmas Eve services.
Now, I know you folks are all over the country here,
but online at Get Hope tv,
we will have our Christmas Eve services at 6:00 PM
and 8:00 PM Would love to have you tune in and join.
It's a family friendly affair.
Can't wait to see you on Christmas Eve.
Having said that, if you are in
or around the triangle, we would like for you
to be our very special guest.
We have 20 services between December 21st
and December 24th, across four
or five different locations, uh, in and around the triangle.
So to find which location would best serve you, go
to get hope.net/christmas.
And that's where you get your free, they're free tickets,
but it just lets you know which service
to attend and where there's space.
Again, we'll put that in the des in the description.
Get hope.net/christmas.
We would love to see you in person at one
of our services on Christmas Eve.
Can't wait to see you. Merry Christmas.