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Testing your ideas against reality can be challenging. Not everything will go as planned. Itβs about keeping an open mind, having a clear hypothesis and running multiple tests to see if you have enough directional evidence to keep going.
This is the How I Tested That Podcast, where David J Bland connects with entrepreneurs and innovators who had the courage to test their ideas with real people, in the market, with sometimes surprising results.
Join us as we explore the ups and downs of experimentation⦠together.
David J Bland (0:0.920)
Welcome to the podcast, Aurora.
Aurora Winter (0:2.788)
It's great to be on with you, David.
David J Bland (0:5.070)
I'm excited to have you on because you sort of have this kind of critical thinking process and this creative ingenuity that you use when it comes to publishing and writing and helping other people do so. And so I would love for you to share some stories today about how you found your success and how other people can maybe learn from that. So maybe before we jump into that, just a little bit about yourself and what you do so that we can set the context for our listeners.
Aurora Winter (0:31.686)
Okay, so β I'm Aurora Winter. I'm the founder of SamePage Publishing. I've launched multiple seven-figure businesses. My background's in film and television. I've written 10 books and an award-winning screenplay that actually got Jack Palance in it. β And I love solving problems. So I think entrepreneurs solve problems at a profit. So whenever I find a problem β in my own business or my own life and then I solve it, I think, maybe I could solve this problem.
for somebody else. So problem solving and testing, that's why I was so excited to be on this show, because testing is like just part of how β my brain thinks. And it's amazing what a difference you can make. You can always test just β by talking. Talking is the cheapest and fastest way to iterate and test. β
David J Bland (1:19.402)
I agree. And your background in film is super interesting. β it feels as if there's some storytelling there or β help us understand is there anything from film that you've used or your process that you've pulled into some some more recent maybe non film related ventures.
Aurora Winter (1:32.304)
Ugh. β F-
Absolutely everything. β I worked in the film business for about a decade. I oversaw 250 hours of television programming, β raised $5 million and launched a film and television production company. We made eight films. β So I'm familiar with every step of the process. what β just doubles down on the storytelling. So for example, with my clients, β I always say, OK, what's your hero's journey? Everybody.
knows the hero's journey from watching movies, but there's so many, β there's like the heist movie structure, there's the hero's journey story structure, there's the mystery story structure. So β I help β entrepreneurs, experts and founders use the story structures that are proven to work in Hollywood that grab attention and you just can't stop listening to use that to help them build their businesses for their books.
David J Bland (2:29.430)
Yeah, I have to say when I was writing Testing Business Ideas, I was not thinking of a hero's journey. I was not thinking of anything. β I was more of just trying to put a resource library together. And then I was so nervous if I had the library up front, people wouldn't read the rest of the book. And I've put at the end, people would skip the first part of the book. So it's sort of in the middle, like two thirds of the book. β But β that journey part, β I agree. I do think we maybe β underestimate the power of storytelling and β
Aurora Winter (2:34.737)
Hahaha
David J Bland (2:58.414)
That's how we learn still today.
Aurora Winter (3:0.426)
Yeah, it is. it's also stories or what people share, what they repeat, what they remember. Whereas most very well educated people have been trained to share data. That's not what people remember. Also, what's really cool about what I do, I'm one of the few people who, as far as I know, I might be the only one, but let's just say I'm one of the few people who has a background in film and television who helps people write both fiction and nonfiction books. So for example, a book can be a proof of concept.
for a movie. So like I have written a young adult fantasy trilogy. The first book is called Magic Mystery and the Multiverse. The third book actually comes out this month, August 2025. It won the Reader's Choice Award. That's another way to test. won all these other awards. And now BBC is interested in a 12-part half-hour series based upon the book. So whenever you get certain level of success at one level, that can be
I've parlayed into proof of concept. At another level, I have a client. helping him write a series of legal thrillers. They're called Jake Fox. He's got over 2.5 million page reads, over 100,000 readers, over 3,000 reviews. So when I pitched that as a TV movie or feature film at the Banff Media Festival in June, people were like, well, the book proves the concept. So obviously you can use a business book to prove a business concept as well.
David J Bland (4:29.409)
Yeah, I have to say I had one of those really popular scam emails the other day that I really wanted to be true, which was we want to buy the rights of your book. And of course they didn't. I mean, they wanted some kind of upfront fee and it was a total scam. But β part of me wanted that to be true. β I thought, yes. But that's a good point you're making, which is that book itself. β
Aurora Winter (4:42.420)
Nah.
Right. β
David J Bland (4:52.077)
could be a test in a way to something bigger or a way to β tell your story, to show that it's interesting and get feedback on, but take that into another β media. And I don't know if I've ever thought of it that way. I thought it more of a, well, I wrote a business book, but β I thought more of it just a way to scale my thinking a bit because I kept telling people the same sort of β advice over and over again. So I thought, that could be in print. And then I could help people that way as well.
Aurora Winter (5:18.612)
Well, what's really cool about your book, which looks amazing, I went to read it, Testing Business Ideas, a Field Guide for Rapid Experimentation. It's got stellar reviews and over a thousand reviews. It looks amazing. β What I β encourage people to think through is every time you solve a problem, there's another problem. β So you have, you could have a book or an offer that solves that. For example, β you know, I help people write amazing books.
Once their book is done, what's the next problem? Get an award, make it a best seller. Okay, once we've got a best selling award winning book, β what's the next problem? Keep selling it. What's the next problem? Is there a TV β series idea here for a feature film β or I mean, even a nonfiction book could be turned potentially into like a Netflix series like Marie Kondo's topic of tidying up.
And she got a Netflix series, you know, going into hoarders' homes and helping them β tidy up. So I really think that in this age of AI, the most important thing is your unique take, your unique stories, your unique history, β and an IP, as Gary Vee says all the time, IP is going to be the most valuable thing that we have.
David J Bland (6:35.469)
Yeah, I think IB, IP is β what makes it defensible, especially when it comes to AI and, you know, things can be copied so easily, but they can't copy your thinking, they can't copy, you know, your sort of internal way of you thinking through things and working through things. β So when it comes to transitioning from film to what you're doing now, β
It sounds as if that storytelling helps and that problem solving addiction you have maybe β also helps. β So maybe explain a little bit about how you're helping other people. β Where did that start from? Was it something you personally experienced or somebody around you? Or maybe explain a bit of that.
Aurora Winter (7:2.346)
β Problem solving addiction, yeah. β
Aurora Winter (7:15.176)
I think I'm just obsessed to be honest, David. β So I've launched multiple businesses and every time I notice, I I love cross pollinating different industries, which is something you're in a unique position to speak about because you interview people from different industries, which is one of the things that's really cool about this podcast. β So for example, β one of the first businesses I started with my husband was β a yacht sales company in Vancouver, BC, Canada.
And at the time they were selling β tax shelter, advantaged real estate. If you rented out a real estate, β you could get huge tax savings. So I asked the million dollar question, could we do this with boats? And we tested that by spending $20,000 with lawyers and accountants. That's the most expensive test I've ever done. β And then offered it to the marketplace. And what happened was as a result of
people just wanted to buy the boat, honestly. They wanted an excuse to buy it, to give their spouse, β and they wanted the numbers to look a little bit better. β But when we offered, or and when we offered β selling a boat and putting it in our charter fleet, it doubled our profit margins from 12 % to 24%. It grew us from a six figure business to a seven figure business, and we became the largest yacht dealership in Western Canada. So,
That is the value of testing. That is the value of one idea. So I think so many people are stuck in their own marketplace. If I just looked at what other yacht dealers were doing, I would never have come up with that idea. So I invite people like look at other industries, listen to lots of podcasts and get ideas and see how something might β pop. And then I love the idea of little micro tests before you launch a business like Google famously launched Gmail with just
β I think so many people like get all excited about what they're doing and they make this super complicated, super advanced thing. β Do micro tests. So for example, well, I want to let you comment, but I did have β another example to share if you want David. So β fast forward, I had the yacht sales company, that was a seven figure business. Then I launched β a film and television β company, that was a seven figure business.
Aurora Winter (9:32.094)
Then I had a coach training company, which cumulatively was a seven figure business, but it was like mid six figures really. β and I launched that company because my husband died suddenly and I wanted to help other people through grief. And I did that β and I wrote a bunch of books about that. And I thought, okay, I'm done with that chapter of my life. β What's next, Aurora? And I'm like, well, maybe people would have, would be interested in having my help with their messaging, their marketing, their media. But
I'm the founder of a coach training company. I'm known for helping people through grief. That is not β one step away. β But more and more people were asking me for help. said, how did you get on so many TV and radio and podcasts? How did you write so many books? β And so I did a little test book based on a one hour interview. It's called Marketing Fast Track, the little book that launched a new business. The second edition says the little book that launched a new business because the first edition hadn't done that yet. β
And I just basically transcribed a one hour interview that I liked. I choreographed the interview, β answered the frequently asked questions, and β shared who I was. And I offered it to my then pretty small list of 12,000 people who knew me in the grief space. β But I said, β if you'd like the book, β it's free, but β pay about five bucks for shipping.
That micro transaction really matters. And I think a lot of people don't realize how important that is. I think the quality of the prospects are maybe a hundred times better, even with $5. So people, bunch of people got the book, we sent it out, it was a loss leader because shipping five bucks didn't cover the cost of shipping and the book, but it was a very small customer acquisition cost.
And what happened then people got five videos to add more value and then they could sign up for a business breakthrough call with me at bookcall.biz and the result was $250,000 of β new business β in 90 days. So that little test β was β very successful financially, but even more important, it gave me confidence to β wrap up the Grief Coach Academy business to finish and
David J Bland (11:30.539)
Wow. β
Aurora Winter (11:43.754)
put a bow on that chapter of my life, which was very meaningful and I feel like I made a difference in that area and move on to my new company, which is called Same Page Publishing, to help people with their marketing, their media presence, their buzz, their β TV or whatever the case may be. So even if the book is not as β thorough as other books I've written or it's not as in-depth as your book, β Testing Business Ideas, a little short book can make a difference or a microtransaction.
See what is the smallest problem you could solve for your ideal client at the lowest price, even if it's a loss leader, and solve that problem. If nobody wants to buy the smallest first step at the lowest price, move on. β
David J Bland (12:31.945)
I personally experienced that too with my own work, you know, because I sell really large programs and β it's a big commitment financially β and people are like, well, can you just come in and tell us what's wrong? β And can you sell us a diagnostic before we go to a big program? And so even my offerings have evolved over the years where now it's more people asking me for diagnostics that come in, tell us where we have gaps and everything. β And then maybe we do a pilot after that, you know, like it's not a giant program, but it's a pilot and we can see what works and what doesn't.
Aurora Winter (12:58.480)
Right.
David J Bland (13:1.839)
β and then we can go to a program. So the market often shapes β what I do as well, because I have in my head, this is the way it's gonna work. And of course, when you talk to customers, it doesn't pan out that way. But when I think about what you just said, there are a lot of things there. β One is the cross pollination. And I think that's fascinating. I have so many β billion dollar companies that I come in β and they're like, give us examples, give us examples, which...
Aurora Winter (13:19.145)
Hmm.
David J Bland (13:27.677)
One, I'm under NDA, so a lot of times I cannot give examples β of what they want to hear. But even if I find an example that's like them, they kind of explain it away. It's like, well, they're kind of like us, but not really like us. And so I've been really trying to challenge executives and such to look outside their industries and say, OK, I'm going to share some examples that are outside your industry. And I want you to take inspiration from what I'm seeing, because I do think that can help your industry. β
Aurora Winter (13:30.953)
β Darn! β
Aurora Winter (13:42.729)
Hmm.
Aurora Winter (13:50.600)
Mmm.
David J Bland (13:57.567)
It's tough, it's almost like a cognitive sort of thing where no matter what example β I try to find for their industry for them, β they can kind of say, well, they're not quite like us, you know, and they can explain it away. But when you go outside the industry, yeah, they can try to use that sort of line of thinking. But I realize it's, I try to use it for inspiration. So I like the cross pollination bit. I do think there's something there. And then the other thing I heard was it's almost as if, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here.
Aurora Winter (14:7.848)
Yeah β
David J Bland (14:25.066)
It's almost as if you're taking sort of your internal process that you're doing whatever for the business that you've started and β you've been very successful at. And that almost internal working becomes maybe even like the foundation for a new business or a new opportunity. Because you play in such different spaces, but it sounds like the common thread is the storytelling. And then it's almost like your internal method of how you de-risk those opportunities and how that can lead to something.
Aurora Winter (14:40.424)
Yeah.
David J Bland (14:53.824)
you know, new that you want to go and run with.
Aurora Winter (14:54.122)
β It's been so interesting. Like people ask me like, what is the common denominator? know, Yod sales company, Yod charter company, coach training company, three exits, a television production company, β a publishing company. β What was the key common factor in the success? And it was storytelling. β Like I love testing ideas for books or for businesses. β I'll talk to people like in the grocery store line. Like the more you test an idea,
the more you see when people glaze over, if you pay attention, they glaze over or when they lean forward, β they spark up. You can see it on their face. They're like, tell me more about that. β And I love testing titles. do it more efficiently β nowadays. But my very first book, β I thought, OK, who's my ideal market? I thought people who went to hear Marianne Williamson speak would probably want to buy this particular book.
And so when people came out, I said, you like this title or this title, this title or this title? Only two at a time. I had eight titles in my head β and I printed them out big. And then I wrote down the answers, whatever their vote was. And if it was a 15 year old boy who answered, I would like pretend to write it down, but I put it in the column that didn't count. β And out of that, the title of the book changed to From Heartbreak to Happiness. And it was twice as good as any other title. was like β way better β than the other titles.
And now I do that for my clients. So for example, one of my clients β that I'm helping with the litigation, β the legal thrillers, when he came to me with his book idea, it was called A Mirthless Troll. That did not light me up. β So I offered several other titles β and now it's called Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer. That is so much better title. β Another client came to me, he'd already published five books. He came to me because he wanted help.
David J Bland (16:38.092)
β Uh-huh. β
Aurora Winter (16:45.588)
bring his next book to the next level. β And the book was about communication. And when he brought it to me, it was called Talk Back. I did not love that title. β So I suggested several titles, which we tested. β And it's now titled Billion Dollar Communication Skills. And it just came out on Amazon. It was instant bestseller. So β I really love working with titles and subtitles. I test everything. Basically, I test everything. β
David J Bland (17:4.470)
Yeah, that's very different.
David J Bland (17:13.340)
Same. had, I don't think many people, we can get into this because I don't think many people either have the opportunity or see the value in testing their books before going to print. But we did things like, β
Well, one, have this β vivid, I have this picture that I took where we were on top of a mountain in Switzerland because we were out there writing with my co-author, Alexis Stowell, who's based in Switzerland β and the lead designer. we kind of I was suffering from β like I was basically suffering from β altitude sickness at the time because it was way high up. We took a cog train all the way to the top β and we're this observatory and we had sticky notes with us β like electron. There's electromagnetic ones that are called studies. β And we were writing down all these titles. We have them up against this this window. β
Aurora Winter (17:42.538)
Mm.
David J Bland (17:56.223)
and we're like, okay, how are we gonna test some of these? β And what we do is we would test them in interviews, we would test them β in talks. So I would have a talk and I'd have a version of it there. β We would test them, sometimes we would have people explain back what they think the book means to us. β We would do like user testing online and stuff. β And β ultimately it came down to my editor saying, β just call the book what it does. β
Aurora Winter (18:13.860)
Mm, β mm.
David J Bland (18:22.892)
And was like, it helps people test their business ideas. And that's kind of where it came from. But the thing β that really tested really well is not necessarily a subtitle. It's like a blurb above the title, which is like, this book is going to help you, blah, blah. And this book is for. β And β I don't know what the hack is to do that. But it's just like a couple of sentences. And I feel like β when people read that, they're like, I know what the book's about. β And β we wordsmith that. β But I'm wondering, β what do you think it is that prevents
Aurora Winter (18:23.050)
Keep it simple. β
Aurora Winter (18:32.660)
Hmm.
David J Bland (18:53.024)
people from wanting to test their book ideas or the titles and everything. It sounds like people come to you for that advice. What do you think holds us back from, especially when it comes to writing, know, testing something?
Aurora Winter (19:3.602)
β I think we get attached to our own ideas and my philosophy is I don't really care what I think. I care what the market thinks. I want to know what the market thinks because the market, we, β you only have so much space. If you're a new idea or a new book or a new author, a new podcast, or you don't have a lot, you don't get like five pages, you get five seconds. β So what is going to hit and make that light up?
And you probably know this resource, but I use β an online resource called PickFoo β to test. You can get immediate feedback β on book covers, on book titles, on anything you want on Amazon page. Now it's not necessarily completely unbiased because it's people who've signed up to give feedback, β but it's very quick β and it's a pretty good first approximation. if it's close...
and the author is really attached to one title a little, even if it doesn't come up first, let's go with the one that you love. β But if it's, it's often not even close. Or the other thing that come out can come out is people misunderstand the title or the name of the product in really horrible ways. β Like I was just brainstorming with chat GPT about what I should call my, β my, my CEO.
David J Bland (20:18.794)
I've seen that, β
Aurora Winter (20:26.314)
β media quick start package that I came up with earlier this week. So β my working title was β CEO media quick start. I'm like, okay, brainstorm 10 titles. β So one of the titles that chat gave me back was like the irresistible CEO. And I'm like, we are not a dating site. β
Right? β but if I didn't have that, if I wasn't also cross-pollinating with dating sites, β I might not have thought of that. like, yeah, who does someone want be irresistible? Yeah, but that's not, it's not the right category. The other thing people don't spend enough time on is what category does their book go in? So for example, I'm working with, β very successful, β very, very successful entrepreneur and he has already written a couple of books. as for his next book, he had a certain category in mind.
And I researched it. Sometimes the testing can just come from research. β I researched it and said that the best-selling book in that narrow category is making $1,500 a month. β So I brought in the category. I took it one step away from the idea he brought, but it was still totally within his heart and β expertise. I gave him that other category and it's like the best-selling book in that category is making $5 million β a month.
People don't stop to do that work before they write the book. β That's why they come to me. β Five million versus 1500. I don't know. It's not really close. β
David J Bland (21:53.095)
I think it's... β
David J Bland (21:58.848)
You have to change your own business model there, it sounds like. β think β so β you before we before we started recording, we were talking about β how you help authors. And one of the things you mentioned that I find β I find true as well is they have a really hard time finishing the book. So I have for the one I published, I have countless other Dropbox folders, Scrivener files, all these different outlines, different versions of books β that are unfinished.
Aurora Winter (22:2.026)
β Yeah, maybe. β
Aurora Winter (22:10.302)
Yeah.
David J Bland (22:29.152)
And I'm wondering, β what β is it? I think maybe tangentially, I was talking to other authors when I was writing my book and they said, β go read β the War of Art, which is like β Stephen Pressfield. And it was talking about internal blockers and things that really work against us. Do you believe in that? Do you think there are other factors that are working against us when it just comes to, is it the fear of β having people?
Aurora Winter (22:43.326)
That's a great book, The War of Art, yeah.
Yeah.
Aurora Winter (22:57.214)
I think there, β I think that β is an excellent book, The War of Art. And I think that especially creative people β struggle with that. β The imposter syndrome, I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. So I always have like, okay, is it good enough? Could it be better? β The only thing that really works for me is, well, two things work for me. β One, a deadline. β Because β you can always make it better or you think you can make it better, but maybe you're just making it different.
David J Bland (22:58.710)
Respond.
Aurora Winter (23:28.830)
Different is not better. Different is just different. So for example, the third book in this fantasy series, which is being released August the 8th, β that's the third one, it's called β Multiverse Mayhem. And I'd already said the release date is August 8th. And I was changing it, like β August, well.
July 31st. I still making it better, but maybe I was just making it different, or maybe I'm just adding a little icing. β but then I had to stop because August 8th it's coming out. And even though I'm a big fan of indie publishing, that that's it. That's, that's it done. β and so now I need to turn that energy that likes to write fantasy into book number four, if I want to write more in that. β But I think what is also really good is to β remind yourself, β why do you want to write that book?
I have different reasons for writing different books and my clients have different reasons too. So for example, with my fantasy series, Magic Mystery in the Multiverse, my life was changed by reading C.S. Lewis's book, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I loved that book when I was nine years old. I read that series and I decided in that moment that I would do whatever it took to become a great writer like C.S. Lewis because I love those books. So the reason I wrote my fantasy trilogy is an
is to pay back that nine-year-old girl that's now nine in 2025 and kind of a thank you to C.S. Lewis for changing my life. Other books, you know, like Turn Words into Wealth are more practical, you know, to attract the ideal client and repel the people who are not ideal client and give a gift to people who can't afford to work with me or anyone else one-on-one. Give them the benefit of a decade of my publishing expertise. I have a client who's selling his business.
β for over a hundred million dollars. So we're working on a book together that I'm super stoked about, but it's top secret so I can't reveal the title just at this β hot second. β But β he is motivated to write that book to help other people, but also to β pivot from one business to another. To pivot from a narrow niche to like β reaching a general public and making a difference and leaving a legacy.
Aurora Winter (25:46.570)
So I think it's really good for each of us to tune into why are we doing this? Are we doing this because β we want the book to be great and it's part of our legacy and we want people to know, β you know, that we're the next John Grisham or the next C.S. Lewis and that it's about the art. Is it an art project or is it a business project where it's going to be the β engine driving seven or eight or nine figures of business? Or is it a lead magnet? So remembering why you're doing it and not
β Getting those mixed up is very helpful. And also have a coach. Everybody has down days. Everybody has moments where they're like, this is shit. β the next day you'll read the same thing as the same document, but you're like, hey, this is really good. I like it. β You cannot judge your own work. You need somebody else. β
David J Bland (26:19.755)
I like the background.
David J Bland (26:36.007)
It's tough. We had like our little reverse book club, a few authors and myself where we were offering up material that we'd have to respond to instead of reading it, we were writing it. β And I think β those little accountability β models or accountability β buddies, accountability buddies, β that β definitely helps. But I do think β I β was watching something from Brandon Sanderson where he was talking about, you know,
Aurora Winter (26:49.000)
Yeah.
Hahaha β
David J Bland (27:0.357)
He feels sorry or feels bad for the people that have their first book be very popular because in a way β
Aurora Winter (27:4.811)
Yeah. β Like eat, β
David J Bland (27:6.623)
you have not really perfected your process of writing yet, especially towards a deadline. And so when you're asked to produce another one, β you might really struggle with that. And I feel some of that a bit because the first book I published is super popular β and selling really well. And I feel as if, did I really find my process? Because it's a very unique style book. It's landscape, full color, a lot of hand-drawn illustrations. It's not probably the style I'll use going forward. β But for that series, it's a very particular style. kind of...
Aurora Winter (27:26.581)
Yeah.
David J Bland (27:33.418)
My co-author Alex started that style, that business book style. I don't know if you know this, but it's like the landscape style where it sticks out of the shelf and β it's a thing now. But he was the first one to do it. And I remember talking to him about it he said, know, β publishers were really hesitant to even agree to publish that kind of book because it was very expensive because it's landscape and full color. β And people are like, well, if this flops, you know, that's a loss for us. And so that's why you don't see very many books in that format at the time.
Aurora Winter (27:39.050)
Mmm.
Aurora Winter (27:49.023)
Hmm.
Right. β Yeah.
David J Bland (28:0.255)
But now that that format's become popular, β it's more of a known. β But I think even in my process, I was thinking, if I'm going to write another book, how do I, what is my process for writing that book? β I think having a deadline is key. So I agree with you there. β But you said almost like three and a half years that people will work on their book and still not finish it.
Aurora Winter (28:10.613)
Yeah.
Aurora Winter (28:20.619)
The average first time author spends three and a half years working on their book. That's why I invented the spoken author method to help, you know, accelerate that. And actually that was by solving a problem for a particular client who had already written a book or maybe two, but he was dyslexic. He was a great speaker. He loved talking. He had a lot of great energy as a keynote speaker, agonized writing anything because of his dyslexia. So I,
thinking about solving that problem for him, I created the spoken author method where we basically β created podcast episodes for each book so that he got the video and the audio and he could chop that up into hundreds of pieces of social media content. As we were creating the book, we were creating the buzz β and then, you know, we created the book. Now he's got his own TV show. So that was really successful for him, but it was also successful for me because in solving his problem. β
being dyslexic but having great stories, doing it the spoken author method totally worked for him. And then I'm like, that's my main offer right now. β
David J Bland (29:28.363)
β So explain a little bit more about that. β it's for people that are stuck or maybe... β I actually have some successful β peers who have written books who also suffer from that and they said it was very challenging to put their words down. So maybe tell me a bit more about that method.
Aurora Winter (29:30.985)
Yeah, so.
Aurora Winter (29:41.484)
Yeah, it can be totally challenging. So what I do is I reverse engineer everything, do it strategically. So we design who is this book for? What is the problem that it solves if it's fiction or nonfiction? Get that clear. Then to come up with a chapter outline so we know what the chapters are. And then we brainstorm what are the bullet points in each chapter. And then the next week, I interview the person about that chapter. They already know the content. They've been thinking about it all week. They share their stories. It's like a
conversation like this. So it's so easy. It's so fun. β But then at the end, we transcribe it and that's the messy first draft of that chapter. β Right? And it's just β amazing. There's something magical that happens when somebody is listening to you deeply that you've discovered or remember stories that you hadn't thought of for a while. So I love doing it this way with the spoken author method. β And it's a great way to create a book. β
Yeah, it's really fun. And what I usually start with is just like a mini feasibility study. So I just work with people for one month β to say, is this book a viable idea? Who are the competitors? What are the sales? β And in that one month, we do a sprint and then we come up with the outline, the chapter outline, who's it for. Then they can go ahead and write the book themselves, although it might take them a while. Or they can continue working with me and do it the fast and fun way with the spoken author method. β
David J Bland (31:3.467)
I like that. So it's like a little test to see is there something there and if it's not a good fit they can take it and run with it even if not.
Aurora Winter (31:10.345)
Yeah, β yeah, we usually manage to get a good fit. But yeah, β you want to make sure that that it's in the right category and that the person is β excited about working in a category that's going to create a 10x return or at least 2x return on their time and money working on the book. β So I don't help people with poetry books, β stuff that's not so likely to be an engine β for their business and not very likely to be turned into a movie. β
David J Bland (31:39.156)
I agree as a former poet, β I have stuff in the National Library of Congress and β it's probably helped me land my wife in one way or another writing poems for her, but β did not translate well into the business book. But I think the writing, yeah, I would get a better ROI. β But β so you're doing all of this β to help people get their thoughts organized and help them be successful. And you've been doing this for quite some time. β So.
Aurora Winter (31:45.471)
Good for β
Aurora Winter (31:53.225)
Well, that's a good ROI. β
David J Bland (32:8.459)
Where are you headed now with this? Like what are some big, maybe assumptions you're testing or things that you're trying out? I feel like that's your pattern is you take what you've learned and you kind of stretch yourself a bit and you say, I don't really know what I'm going to do here but I think I have a process for it. what is it? What is you, what are you working on now?
Aurora Winter (32:23.912)
Yeah, you got me. β I appreciate that you get me. So what I'm working on now. So I noticed that audiobook sales are super hot. People love audio. I I listen to a lot of books. I think that's great. So I thought, well, what's next after audiobooks? I thought video books. β So I'm testing the idea of a video book. β Who knows? It could be a dud idea. That's the whole point of testing. You test to see is there something here. So β
I love tests that if you win, you win, and if you lose, you still win. So this is one of those kinds of tests. Even if I lose, I still win. So I have a new YouTube channel. It's called Strategic Basics. β And each week I share β breaking news and turn it into business breakthroughs. So breaking news to business breakthroughs. β And β I'm noticing basically immediately how many views different episodes get, what kind of comments people get. So I've only been doing this for two months, something like that. We have got
16,000 subscribers, and already I'm starting to notice some patterns. So noticed that if the title has got CEO in it, that works well. Like peak performance habits of CEOs or how CEOs write books, that kind of works for me. I'm having fun. So basically each week, the research that I do to create the video...
The video is maybe 15 minutes long, but that could be a chapter in a book. So I have a book unfolding β and my idea is to launch the book and each chapter will also have a link to the video on YouTube. Now, β the worst case scenario is, is a bad idea, Aurora, and there's nobody who wants to do a book like that. The best case scenario is kind of like your format on your book. Like, why didn't we think of this before? Like the Post-It Note.
If audio books are so popular, why not video books? Duh! That's the best case scenario. β And I start a new thing. β And you can say Aurora had that idea first before Tim Ferriss or somebody super famous does it. And they think it's all about him. β But in the worst case, I still lose with this test because I have a new YouTube channel. It's really fun. I've doubled down into what makes me human. So my background in film and television. So we have a lot of B-roll. β
Aurora Winter (34:41.978)
It's got music. So they're like little mini movies. So that makes me super happy. β And I realized like, I'm getting prospects who find me from chat GPT. I'm like, the re I think the top three search engines, you got to be on chat GPT. YouTube is the number two search engine.
And then Amazon is the number three search engine. the trifecta that leaders β may want to look for, which I'm leaning into, is how can I get on all three platforms? Well, obviously to be on Amazon, you need a book. I've got 10, so check. β I had a YouTube channel, but it was all over the map. So now I've got a very clear YouTube channel β and I got a prospect.
last week who found me because chat recommended me. I'm like, okay, it's working. All three things are working. Well, chat GPT references things like YouTube or Goodreads. So the YouTube and the Amazon feed into the, the GEO anyway, it's really fun. And I recommend like, why not come up with a test that even if you lose, you still win. I'm, I'm enjoying learning about these breaking news stories. And I'm enjoying leaning into.
a deeper understanding of them. So for example, the episode that I'm working on right now β is the top ways that CEOs are using AI agents β to be more effective and safe 10 to 15 hours a week. I'm interested in that. I want the answer to that. β And as I'm researching it, then I make the episode and who knows, maybe there'll be a chapter in the book. β
David J Bland (36:15.755)
I love that. I love that you're kind of like just again kind of addicted to problem solving in a way and seeing like what's next, how can I test what's next and even if it fails you still win. I like that framing.
Aurora Winter (36:20.916)
Hahaha
Aurora Winter (36:27.740)
Yeah, I like it too. It's fun.
David J Bland (36:30.079)
So we covered so much β today in this episode. We covered β your various background and how you've been successful in so many different areas and your underlying storytelling thread throughout. β We talked about how you're helping other β aspiring authors, β even some with certain conditions that are β maybe struggling to write a book, how they can use your method to help write a book. And we've even talked about today and fast forward even after this episode of how you're testing different formats. β If folks have listened to this episode β
Aurora Winter (36:54.675)
You
David J Bland (37:0.013)
I think, β I think Aurora could help me. What's the best way for them to reach out to you?
Aurora Winter (37:4.552)
The best way to reach out to me is go to samepagepublishing.com, samepagepublishing.com, and you can see the various clients that have helped, and you can sign up for a business breakthrough call there, which is free, and we can look at β if I can help you. And you can also get this book. It's an award-winning bestselling book. It's a significant book. It's like 50,000 words. We're not talking a five-page PDF. You can get Turn Words into Wealth.
at turnwordsintowealth.com or you can also get it at SamePage Publishing. And I'd love to help, you know, experts, leaders, CEOs with their book or simply with their authority and messaging to help them launch their YouTube channel, help them get on podcasts, help them nail what their million dollar message is. One thing we didn't talk about, but just super quick, β 100 % of the founders that have helped raise capital β have raised seven or eight figures and they started with having raised nothing.
because they needed the million dollar message. I'm really the person to, I was gonna say the girl, I guess I'm a woman, I'm the woman β to connect with if you would like to have a million dollar message, whether you put that in a book or a pitch or a Ted Talk or what have you.
David J Bland (38:14.667)
Thank you. Well, thanks for sharing everything. I really enjoyed our conversation. I learned a little bit about even the book testing process, even beyond what I tried in the past. I just want to thank you for being very transparent and β open with your journey with our listeners. I think they'll learn a lot from this.
Aurora Winter (38:31.776)
Thank you so much, it was a pleasure. β