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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson. I'm your host, developer of Essential Dynamics. Really excited because we've just started season four of Essential Dynamics podcast, episode number 85. And to celebrate, I've got two of my colleagues with me today, Anne MacTaggart and Glen Vanstone.
Derek:Anne and Glen, welcome to Essential Dynamics.
Ann:Good morning.
Glen:Hey. Good morning, Derek.
Derek:It's this is, really exciting. So so glad that you could, join me. We're we're mixing things up a little bit for season four. And what we wanna do is really focus on the business leader and helping them with tools that they need to get unstuck and have better businesses and better lives. We've been talking a lot about that here in our, Unconstrained Consultancy.
Derek:And so we thought we would bring Anne and Glenn on and carry on the conversations that we've, that we've had in camera, put them on the public domain, and get that conversation going. So I'm really excited to be in season four and to have Anne and Glenn with me today. Guys, I've been thinking a lot about how we can get started on this topic. And it seems to me that, Glenn's been doing some thinking about the the bigger system, and we always wanna talk about systems and essential dynamics, but the the bigger system, if we could talk about it as, having a stronger economy. And, we're here in Edmonton, Alberta, cap capital of Alberta, metropolitan most northerly metropolitan center in Canada.
Derek:That's, that's something that we know well. We recognize that these principles that we're talking about are gonna apply to metropolitan economies and maybe even national economies all over. But some of our conversation will might be tend to the local here a little bit, but we're always focused on principles here too. So, Glenn, let me just get started with what's hard about from a big picture sort of, policy point of view, what's hard about improving an economy?
Glen:Well, oh, oh, thanks.
Derek:I got
Glen:that one. I got that one.
Derek:Right? Yeah.
Glen:What's hard about improving economy? I think because everything has changed and everything is changing. So I've been wrestling with a bit of a question that I have, which is, so what's after more? And I put that in context because, for the last decades of rampant globalization, it's been an economy based on the principle of more, more, more. Right?
Glen:More growth, more jobs, more revenue, more tax, more more more more. And so businesses have been started, raised, matured, operated, all under this dynamic and this larger economic principle of more, more, more, more. That's all changing. From my perspective, the fundamental is, is what's after more? And we don't have an economic model that fits our current situation.
Glen:So I've been writing a bit, I've been talking a lot about what I call the five forces, you know, the geopolitical disruption, the tech, technological, supremacy, trade tectonics, that climate adaptation, and even the demographic disruptions that have been going on. Those are big displacement forces that are pushing every company, here in in our neck of the woods and really across the entire, certainly the Western world, which has been very much a capitalist, more and more and more driven system. So in contact, all of that is putting these kind of new unique pressures on business leaders that have not been part of their experience, part of the paradigm, part of the system, over the last few decades. And so we're organizations and communities, I don't differentiate, companies and communities are under those same types of pressures. And everybody is feeling things as change.
Glen:And so, you can't buy your way out of challenges anymore. Money is no longer cheap, and that's not just an inflationary thing. Inflation is a symptom, but it's a different environment for businesses and communities to find themselves in today that hasn't existed before. And so that creates a new set of unique challenges and unique systemic barriers that are working, as headwinds on anybody's plans and progresses that they're trying to make happen.
Derek:So let me pick up on a couple things there, and then and you can weigh in. So since, World War two ended, and we had rapid economic growth, we've had some cycles. But if you started a business in the fifties, chances are you saw tremendous growth. And the same if you started a business in the seventies, and and then again in the nineties. And so these cycles go on.
Derek:And so there's there's the the changes that you talked about, but we still have the expectation, that, we're gonna be able to experience growth. And if we get in the market, then it's gonna take off, and then businesses are valued based on this growth potential that's expected to be there, so we'll buy future earnings. Mhmm. And and that sometimes can create some insane calculations, and then people think that's where the value is. And now there's this this, like, disappointment that, you know, maybe that's not gonna happen every time to everybody.
Derek:Is that part of what you're saying?
Glen:Yeah. It's the math is not going to work out the same way as it has in the past. Remember, we used to run into these cycles that you just mentioned, you know, these big disruptions, price of some commodity collapses, and then there's the big you and everybody wants a return to norm as rapidly as possible. My point is, is that norm is shifting. And so this expectation of some pressure or some unique dip or something that they just have to get through, and then it's back to normal.
Glen:It's like COVID in the pandemic period, right? How quickly can we get through this? Let's put a whole bunch of capital into the marketplace. We're all trying to preserve in the expectation that once it's over, everybody can go back to business. And my point was that's not happening.
Glen:That's not going to be the norm. The math keeps changing.
Derek:So I'm gonna go to you and, say whatever you want, but one thing that you might touch on is, the impact on individual business leaders that that you've seen. But take it just just give us your thoughts on what we're talking about so far.
Glen:Is that Anne or me?
Ann:Anne. Anne. Oh, okay. That's what I thought. No.
Ann:That's what I thought.
Derek:Glenn's used Glenn's used up all his time. Yep. So we'll never go back to him. But
Ann:Okay. So we'll just measure the number of words that I say, and then we'll just make keep score that way. Because I'm not overly concise. What I would like to share or sort of add to this conversation is, your question was how you know, what are you seeing in the environment? I love your description, Glenn, around how the you know, you summarized it as it's the the the period of more.
Ann:And I think we're out of the period of more. And what I am seeing is now it's people are like, okay. So if it's not more, what is it? And I would describe the next phase possibly could be more like rationalization or economization of we have enough here or we have enough there, so more isn't gonna get us ahead. And, Derek, you talked about the what what is the impact on leaders?
Ann:Absolutely. There's a they're, they're trying to figure this out as well. So they're starting to think about how do I how do I survive or face the next challenge? And they're wrestling with it. And so I would say the impact on them is they're still trying to figure it out.
Ann:How do I do that? How do I figure out? If it's not more, what is it? How do I, there's too much information. There's so much noise for me to look at.
Ann:Like, where do I start? And so they're they're looking out their window or out their field of vision, trying to do research, trying to understand where their business is in this, in this system or in the global economy. And how can I make it better and make it better for whatever my my purpose is? Or how can I look after my people? How do I how do I move to this next phase so that I can continue doing what good I've been doing and, take that into the next step so that I'm not gonna lose what I've what I've gained?
Derek:I really like Anne this idea of enough, because in our Western society, we have enough food. Clearly, there are people who don't have food. That's not a problem of a supply of food. That's those are other problems there. But it so we have enough food.
Derek:We could have enough shelter. We have enough energy. We have access to enough energy. And so so the the an economy built on scarcity is running into some something where we have plenty and prosperity, but we still need meaning and we need growth. So there's that.
Derek:And then the other thing that I'd say to what you said, Anne, is what you're talking about, the introspection that a business leader is going through, I would guess that that is sort of taking up 1% of the time of 1% of the business leaders.
Ann:That's fair. That's fair.
Derek:And everyone else would like to do it, but they don't find that they have the capacity to spend that time in introspection, probably because of the five forces that Glenn's been talking about. And then just just human nature and our tendency to
Ann:And and all the other
Derek:on the short term.
Ann:And all the other, quote, noise that is coming at them, whether it's a screen, whether it's an employee, whether it's a customer, all those other, distractions, it's it's really hard to think about those longer term, bigger picture, why am I here questions.
Derek:So one of the things I wanted to do in setting up this conversation is to talk I mean, we can jump all over the place. But to talk about if you had a policy direction that would help, what do you do with the fact that you have business leaders that are in the state that Anne is talking about? Because, here's here's my hypothesis I wanna put out there. That is at some point, any kind of policy change, any kind of injection into the economy that some, level of government or, other agencies trying to produce, at some point, it has to get it's gonna go across the president's desk, and it's either gonna make a change in the organization or it's not. And I don't think that that that constraint has been, dealt with very much.
Derek:And I'll just give you an example. I was reading the other day, actually, it was it was Jordan Peterson in a podcast, who said that a psychotherapist is evaluated based on whether, an individual's life improves based on the work that they do, you know, the client does with the psychotherapist. Then if they stop the bad habit and start functioning better in society, that's a win. But he was sort of complaining that a medical doctor's, you know, sort of moment of performance is is writing the prescription. And if the patient doesn't comply, it's not the doctor's fault.
Derek:And so if we have a prescription for the economy, I think we have to deal with the decisions that get made in the in the, you know, business leaders office that determine whether that, that, policy change is gonna be impacted in growth or improvement in the organization. So I'm, I'm maybe co opting our conversation a little bit. It's not a solution, but I'm just saying that we, you can't just push a button and the businesses all change. I appreciate your reaction to that. No.
Glen:But policy's kind of an interesting term. And when I, when I hear you talk about policy, one of the things that pops up into my head was, a few years ago when we were doing the economic strategy piece for the city and we were canvassing and talking and engaging with business leaders and stakeholders all over the deal, One of the questions we were asking was, what drove your business? What was there that moved your business forward? And there was a great deal of struggle with that question. Everybody could point to what was in their way, but had a lot of difficulty understanding within their businesses what was moving that business forward, which was a bit of a different, line of thinking for them.
Glen:One of the things that they talked about a lot was policy. Policy came out as a lot of, the constraints or the headwinds and the things that were getting in their way, preventing them from, from making real change occur. And, you know, we kind of brought back to that notion that we had talked about many times before was that meme or whatever that was, Damn it, I wish somebody would change the rules so my business model worked again. Like, and it's back to that, if somebody would fix policy, then everything would be normal and everything would be good. So there tends to be this externalization of the the problems or the headwinds within an organization tends to get well, you gotta externalize that and try to affect a policy or affect something to favor what my business does so it can be better.
Glen:And I think one of the things that's a big challenge is where you have organizations that have that paradigm that I talked about, the more and more and more as part of its operating structure, you have boards or investors that are go fix that policy thing or put some attention on that external factor so that you can make the business better. And so you have this misdirection, if you will, that I think is where people look to policy as some sort of panacea and hoping that some suite of policy change will make things all good. And therefore, take some of that pressure off or the burden off, and then they can get back to business. And I think that's that fatal approach. I think it's actually very, very, detrimental to business health because you're putting too much on somebody else to come up with the magic ocean of some sort of a policy framework that is going to make all things right.
Glen:And in that case, the tendency is to go back to policies that are trying to reshape what worked before. And so I'll pick on our own home province here and say, you know, our business model of Alberta has always been based on investment capital in energy and the flow of that capital throughout the economy. That's the Alberta business model. And when that investment perhaps dropped off starting ten years ago, it was suddenly a policy of diversification. Damn it.
Glen:Everything's gotta be diverse. Go diversify, DICEF, and and let's go diversify the economy. So let's go put attention on a whole bunch of other stuff. But now we're going into this kind of a focal mindset of, damn it. If only we could get more investment back into Alberta, all will be well.
Glen:And so we have a policy thrust that is focused on let's get invested in again and all will be well in Alberta. Therefore, all you all you Alberta based businesses that have been living on that machine and in that model will be better off. And so policy is a tricky one for me because it externalizes attention into areas where I think leaders can't be effective. And it takes them away from where they should be effective in how do I change the way I create value so my business can thrive in a new world.
Ann:I have a I have a question or a thought about that, Glenn. I I agree, that that the with the externalization, I like the way you describe that. But it's interesting that regulators are totally bought into feeding that notion that policy change that isn't my responsibility inside my business is what's gonna fix stuff because you see it in, you know, broad based, plans and, for example, greenhouse, not greenhouse, Reporting requirements around, ESG. Yeah. So that's that's a regulator or a regulator or I'm trying to describe it.
Ann:I'm not doing a very good job. But it's they're buying into that whole oh, yeah. Yeah. It's policy. It's big policy, and it's the gates that these organizations work through.
Ann:And everybody's, you know, looking at that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a good idea. They're all bought into that.
Ann:But, you know, you kinda bring that back home. The guys that in sitting in his business trying to figure out, what to do next, and they're waiting for regulators and all of that sort of thing. And business leaders are very prone. They want action. They wanna do something, and they wanna do it now.
Ann:And so it's very counterproductive to, for policymakers to think that that's gonna be impactful when the guy sitting at his desk or walking through his plant, trying to figure out how to do better. That that that's just not there's a big disconnect.
Derek:So, I wanna I wanna thank you both for those comments. I'm trying to pull it together, and it's crazy, but, you know, we're coming to our close of this conversation. We only have a few minutes left.
Ann:It's just started.
Derek:I know. I know. But so here's well, this was not, you know, to our listeners, this was not scripted. But to bring this to a point, like, why are we at Unconstrained so concerned about the principles that we talk about essential dynamics? It's because, business leaders have to take ownership for their situation and optimize their situation.
Derek:And when they think about trying to push that onto someone else, it's less effective. On the flip side, when policymakers and regulators and people who who set up tax structures and stuff like that say, this will solve the economy. We just change this one rule. It's, there's that's a fallacy. So what's gonna change the economy is individual business leaders making better decisions.
Derek:And so what unconstrained is all about is trying to get into, the office and the head of the business leader to support them in making the best decisions that they possibly can. And one of the things that we we, we believe is that the time and attention that a business leader can put on their business is the most critical resource of the organization. And that time and attention is not well spent waiting for a rule to change or or to try and get the environment to change back to where it was was before. And so our, our conversations is as we carry them on in season four are all about trying to help the business leader spend time thinking about the right stuff with the right support so that they can see the reality in the environment that's out there now and make the best decisions to help their business move forward. So as with that as a hypothesis, Glenn and Anne, what are your what are your thoughts?
Derek:Are we, are we on the right track?
Ann:I totally think they sorry, Glenn. I totally think we are because there's a better chance that they can control. Like, don't don't try to impact something you can't control. Try to impact something you can. And so if they can control what's going on inside their organization and the the decisions that they're trying to make and focus on the right things at the right time, then I think they'll have a better opportunity to make an impact rather than waiting for somebody else to fix it or, you know, you might wait too long.
Ann:Sorry, Glenn.
Glen:Two points I think about it that that stick in my head is, one is, the era of cheap money is over. And I think we need to get as a as a community, as a as a society, get past that last fifteen, twenty years of almost free money. That's been shaped into how our economy has operated for a while now, and it's become part of that decision making paradigm. The era of cheap money being over means you can't buy your way out of challenges anymore. And a lot of business leaders used to do that.
Glen:That was one of those Alberta, characteristics too. It was, Hey, there's all There's lots of money. Just spend it and get past that. Okay. So if that's true, then attention is, even more critical as, to your comment.
Glen:It's a precious resource. But it's also about time. Right? And in terms of waiting for somebody to fix things so my business model works again, is a luxury that doesn't exist either. If there's no cheap money, there's no free time.
Glen:Time is absolute. It's nonnegotiable. Right? Attention, once it's spent, can't be reacquired. And so what you pay attention to going forward is priceless.
Glen:And for company leaders, if if it's the most, important resource in their value creating wallet, good leaders learn to spend it wisely and bad leaders bend it like they had a habit of hoping for something different. And I think what we're trying to do here is is to start to bring some, I hate to say, attention to attention as something that is overlooked, but it's going to be important for businesses that want to survive or want to be resilient in a in a world that is no more about more. It's about successful companies are the resilient ones. And so what is resiliency, count for success in how a business survives and thrives. So and it's an entirely interesting space to, to dive into.
Glen:For me, it's fascinating because I think it's critical to, what we what we're trying to do and what a business that is trying to endure and thrive in the future, has to be thinking about its own transitions. And instead of waiting for government or some other, authority to come up with a magic mix, just roll up sleeves, get after it, and start setting your own direction. And I think the next five, ten years, are going to be even more tumultuous than the last five. So now is the time to get busy on paying attention to your own attention.
Derek:Okay. There's like eight sound bites in there. We'll see which ones come to the top. So thanks very much, Glenn. So, so the way the way I wanna one principle that you shared, it's really valuable, I wanna highlight, and then we're probably gonna talk about it next time is, you cannot buy more management attention.
Derek:Like, it's it's, it's a finite resource that has to be optimized. You can't just go get some more, like you can use to be able to get some more money. So we're gonna talk about that, but let's just bring this back to the concepts of essential dynamics. The leaders on a quest, And when you receive the call, the call to adventure and you're off on the quest, then you gotta make the journey and there's there's no shortcuts. There's help.
Derek:There's obstacles and there's help and there's companions along the way, but there's you gotta you gotta walk every step. There's no shortcuts. And so that's that's how we look at management attention is there's no there's no shortcuts. So, on behalf of Unconstrained, which you can find at, getunconstrained.com, Anne McTaggart, Glenn Vanstone, and I thank you for your time and attention today. And, until next time, consider your quest.