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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
The reality is we are what we repeatedly do. This is the slippery slope of self-deception. And if we don't know what we repeatedly do, then we can't repent, heal, grow, and ultimately get better. When we know better, we do better, and that's why self-awareness is so crucial. The enemy of self-awareness is self-deception. I'm excited about today's episode, Episode 3 of this season on self-awareness. Joel, I know you have a lot to say about this.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I sure do. I think that idea of self-deception is so challenging because self-deception shows up in different ways for each of us. There is an overt aspect of self-deception that we can easily point out in other people. We can be like, “Ooh, you have been deceiving yourself in all these different ways,” but there's a covert nature of self-deception. And so I'm really excited to share and talk about both of those. But before we get there, I'm going to turn, Lysa, to your favorite place in all of Scripture. And where might that be?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Genesis.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's right. We're going to go to Genesis, but our path to Genesis is actually going to be a passage that you shared in the previous episode, James Chapter 1, and let's start here. James 1:14, "Each person is tempted" — notice the language — "Each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desire. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death" (CSB). What I actually think James is doing is he's actually giving us a commentary on the opening pages of Genesis because what does the enemy, Lucifer, Satan, do in the Garden of Eden? Well, first, he himself has a desire to be like God, so he himself is actually self-deceived. He's dealing with deception in all kinds of ways. And the natural tendency of a person who is self-deceived and is deceptive in their own nature is to be deceptive with others.
So then catch this, the enemy himself is self-deceived. And then he goes into Eden, and he actually tempts, through deception, Adam and Eve in order to ... [saying] “Hey, you probably want to eat this fruit because you want to be like God.” And then Adam and Eve are self-deceived, and in their own deception, they actually deceive themselves and eat of the fruit because they actually have competing ambitions, competing desires. And when they take of that fruit, what happens? Sin. And sin gives birth to death. And, Lysa, you've talked about this often, that in that moment you're like, wait a minute, they didn't instantly die. They ate of the fruit, and they didn't instantly die. But what did take place? Spiritual death took place in that exact moment, and they began the process of death and dying. And so self-deception from a theological standpoint has its historical roots in the very garden.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And you know what I hear there, I hear “justification.” And justification is really a big component, I think, to self-deception, because I know in that situation, I could imagine ... now I wasn't there obviously, and I'm not Eve obviously, but I'm putting myself in that situation, and I'm thinking, Oh, if I eat this fruit that God told me not to eat of but if I eat this fruit, I'll become more like God. Well, I want to become more like God. Who doesn't want to become more like God? And so she easily justified what God had already said don't do. And I think that we can get into some of those situations as well when we too easily justify what we're doing. And I think that justification can lead to that self-deception.
For example, I know this is wrong for everyone else, but it's OK for me because look at all I've been through, right? Or this might be really something that would hurt somebody else, but I'm OK doing this because X, Y, Z. Or it's wrong for other people to take this, but I'm justified in taking this because I have X, Y and Z, or I need X, Y and Z.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, so good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
In the last episode we talked about motivation, and so I just think we need to, in this episode, pay a little bit attention to justification. Because if we can easily justify something that is such a big part of deceiving ourselves and then becoming less and less and less aware that we are justifying things we shouldn't justify.
Jim Cress:
Can I add a third word real quickly? And I'll tell you, this is really the main word I use. It's used in addictions work and just in getting out of self-deception to self-awareness, and that is “rationalization.” Thinking of that rational brain when the brain ... it is justifying all those things are true. But when I rationalize it and I say, “This makes sense, or this would be something I could do,” it kicks it up a little more even than justifying. But my brain rationally will say, “OK, let's walk down this path.” I have rationalized it, made it rational to me, then it's really hard to come out of self-deception and get back into self-awareness.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So good.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's great. I think about deception often as other people deceiving me. So it's coming from the outside toward me, but the self-deception part is about the internal reality of how we're participating in this type of belief system that is incongruent. It's not accurate; it is false. Paul is not unfamiliar with this. And actually, Jim, you referenced this in the last episode; it is Romans 7:15. So look at this, what Paul says, "For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice" — if you're circling or highlighting or paying attention to this, you want to circle and highlight that word “practice,” — "because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate" (CSB). That Greek word for practice is prassō, it means to get beyond, or to press on through, or to execute it. And literally what Paul is saying is he's adding to like, OK, self-deception, how does this happen? Well, we participate in self-deception when we put our practice on the wrong thing.
Jim Cress:
That's good.
Joel Muddamalle:
We actually practice deceiving ourselves instead of practicing the things that we ought to do, the things that are going to bring clarity to our lives, the things that are going to lead us into a path of truth, not a path of deception. And I think that the background for even this is Galatians Chapter 5. So it's like what are ... just from a very practical standpoint, what are the things that are self-deceptive that lead us into a path of deception? Well, we're going to notice each of these episodes are building on each other. And so when it comes to self-deception, Paul, in Galatians Chapter 5, he makes this comparison between the fruit of the Spirit and the vices of the flesh. So the vices of the flesh are the things that we do that are self-deceptive, that partner with our self-deception.
So look at verse 19. "Now the works of the flesh are obvious:" — again, insane lists — "sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I am warning you about these things—as I warned you before—that those who" — look at that word “practice,” there's always reason for a repetition. "that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21, CSB). And again, Lysa, I think about how you're so helpful in talking about the difference between patterns of behavior that we find ourselves in versus mistakes that as fallen human beings we succumb to. Well, what is the difference? Patterns are things that we actually are practicing.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yep.
Joel Muddamalle:
It's that we're participating, that we're being intentional around.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Because we become what we repeatedly do.
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And then there's this comparison and there's this juxtaposition to the things of the flesh, the vices of the flesh, versus the fruit of the Spirit. Notice how it flips. What is the fruit of the Spirit? It's love, it's joy, it's peace, it's patience, it's kindness, it's goodness, it's faithfulness, it's gentleness, [and] it's self-control (Galatians 5:22-23, CSB). So it's not crazy anger. It's actually being controlled. And notice this: It's not that you don't have anger.
Jim Cress:
That's right. Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
It's not that you don't experience these things. No, it's actually that through the power of the Holy Spirit, you're able to bridle those emotions and that anger and submit it to God. The law is not against such things. Now, those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And then here's [verse] 25: again, we're building. "If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another" (Galatians 5:25-26, CSB). And so we have this sense that when we practice, when we partner with, when we pursue the vices of the flesh, we're actually taking ourselves deeper into places of self-deception to the point where we look around ... and we're going to talk about this later, but I know, Jim, you've got some interesting things to say about this ... to the point we actually don't even realize what's happening around us. It's like the frog that's in the pot, and you put it in the pot, and if it's hot, it jumps out.
Jim Cress:
True.
Joel Muddamalle:
But if you turn that heat up slowly over time, that frog is just like, Oh, this is great; this environment's awesome until it's burnt alive. And that's what self-deception will do to you over a prolonged period of time.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I like what you said: that we keep in step with the Spirit because that is a healthy, godly practice. It's like I'm going to step, and then I'm going to step again, and I'm going to step again, and it's all going to be in alignment with what honors God, loves people, and helps me become who, ultimately, I want to become, and I should become, and God is enabling me to become if I will keep in step in alignment with the way that I should go. So interesting. Jim, what do you have to say about this?
Jim Cress:
Well, I think the idea of taking the covert and making it overt, God's Word will help us with that. A big thing I would think around on the very practical level around self-deception is have a group of people, even if it's two or three. I've taught often about having a personal board of directors. That means you name six seats, three seats, however many you can of people who will tell you the truth. And that's called doing a 360, where someone can look around you, and do it periodically and say, “What am I missing? Here's what I say my goals are, and I'm not reaching out to them. Or where do you see me?” Sometimes a good spouse, if you're married, can help you with that. Where do you see me not being my best self or, where have I done anything in this relationship that is what we call malfeasance.
We want, as therapist, nonmalfeasance: do no harm. Where have I done anything that has been harmful to you? Said something, did something, [or] I didn't follow through in what I said I would do. And again, be curious, not furious, there, but to have some people who can speak into your life, not yes men or yes women who would say, "Well, thank you, and yeah, here's, Jimbo, what we see." "Joel, here's something I see going on in your life." And these are people who have their own words seasoned with salt, with grace, and they have a vision for me to be the best me I could be. I just don't want to do this alone.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I love that. And that's one of the reasons why I put together this free resource that we'll put a link in the show notes: "What's It Like To Do Life With Me?" I love how you called the people a personal board of directors, because I think you're right. I love the questions you said: What am I missing, and where do you see me not being my best self? And this assessment will really help with that. I thought I would read just a couple of questions from the assessment because I think those questions are going to be opportunities for healthy discussion. So one of the questions is, in the assessment: "My friends and family know they can count on me to encourage and support them." So I'm going to answer that for myself. Then we're going to compare it to others' assessment of me and others' assessment, someone else is saying, "I know I can count on Lysa to encourage and support me." Is that true or false?
And so wherever I'm marking true but my close trusted friends are marking false, then that's where there may be some self-deception. Let me do one more. So I'm going to assess myself and say, "I'm the first to apologize, or I'm quick to extend grace and understanding." But then my friend is going to assess me and say, "Is it true that my friend Lisa is the first to apologize? Is it true that Lisa is quick to extend grace and understanding?" And if they say it's false and I'm saying it's true, that's a way to identify some self-deception.
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, that's so good. When it comes to self-deception, we talked about the vice of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit, but one of the big indicators that's always present in deception is pride. Pride is always present. Now, pride, interestingly, and this came out of some research I was doing as I was preparing for my book that comes out next year, The Hidden Peace, a section on pride. Actually, Jim, you were super helpful because you gave me a lot of great therapeutic insight into pride. Pride, in one sense, is very open. You can see evidence of pride in other people's lives, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that was just absolutely prideful. That was absolutely incongruent, inconsistent and not very helpful."
But one of the, I think, more significant issues is the concept of hidden pride. And when it comes to self-deception, one of the ways that we're self-deceived is when we actually have hidden pride that is present inside of our lives. Now, why is hidden pride so difficult to maybe put our finger on? I've come to the conclusion that hidden pride is so difficult to pinpoint because oftentimes hidden pride presents itself as the fruit of the Spirit.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Wow.
Jim Cress:
Wow. That's interesting. Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, hold on, let me let that sink in for a minute.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Hidden pride often presents itself as fruit of the Spirit.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, so let's look at it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
The fruit of the Spirit is love ... hidden pride ... Well, I love that person. I'm doing all these things for them. And so it might present itself as love, but then you get behind the scenes and you go, oh, my love is actually contingent on what that person can do for me.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Ooh.
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
And so unless that person keeps up, and we've talked about narcissistic behavior and fuel and what that does, unless that love that we're presenting is met by the contingency statement behind it, that person can easily no longer be a person that we love, it's hidden pride.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Wow.
Joel Muddamalle:
Hidden pride is so dangerous because it's hidden inside of the chamber of the human heart where there is no accountability; there's no mirror to be able to help identify it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Or I will love that person as long as they keep my secrets.
Joel Muddamalle:
That's right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I will love that person as long as they —
Jim Cress:
It's a bartered relationship, isn't it?
Lysa TerKeurst:
— as long as they go along with what I want.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, exactly. And so hidden pride is so scary in that sense. And so then the really big question is, well, how do I know that I am suffering from hidden pride? And so in this chapter, we had four different questions and it's questions —
Lysa TerKeurst:
And this is the chapter to the new book?
Joel Muddamalle:
To the new book, The Hidden Peace. And it's about finding true strength and security and confidence through the lost discipline of humility.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And it's your first book that you've written.
Joel Muddamalle:
And it's my first book that I've written. And, Lysa, you wrote the foreword for it, which I'm so grateful for. And, Jim, you're quoted extensively throughout this book and this section —
Jim Cress:
Thank you.
Joel Muddamalle:
— that you really helped me with. But I remember I was working through these four questions in the chapter, and I got a little worried because I was like, man, I really want to make sure from a psychological standpoint and a therapeutic standpoint that these are actually going to be helpful for people who might be suffering from hidden pride, [who] might want to evaluate that they don't want to be self-deceived, right? They don't want self-deception to be present in the place of pride. And so we just had these four questions. With question number one, when you're celebrated, how do you feel? So it's really important. First, you have to answer the questions honestly. What is the honest —
Jim Cress:
I like that.
Joel Muddamalle:
— in the chamber of your hidden heart, what do you feel? It's like when I hit the three-pointer on the basketball court, I'm just letting y'all know, I'm thinking I could have played in the NBA. I'm crushing it. You know what I mean? So this is the level of honesty that we need.
Jim Cress:
Are you aware of your self-deception at that moment?
Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely. I'm 5'7"; I'm shrinking every year. No, there's no way. So when you're celebrated, how do you feel? And we need that honest response. When you experience failure, how do you respond? When you win or you're right about something, what words do you say, perhaps only in your mind, about yourself? So when Lysa beats us for the 25th time in a row for Ticket to Ride or Sequence or Monopoly Go, whatever it is.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Monopoly Deal.
Joel Muddamalle:
Monopoly Deal, yeah.
Jim Cress:
Monopoly.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Jim Cress:
I got the tar —
Joel Muddamalle:
Monopoly Go-
Jim Cress:
— beat out of me —
Joel Muddamalle:
— because I'm going, I'm not playing with her.
Jim Cress:
— playing with her not long ago on that one.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, exactly. What are the things that you're saying? What words or thoughts do you have about the person who was wrong? What are these things? And then you want to write these things down, and then you want to go to some people that are close to you, that know you really, really well. And you want to use your word, Jim; we want to look for congruency, consistency. And the tension between the space of how you answered it with how other people might respond is probably where that hidden pride and self-deception is actually working itself out.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That is so good, Joel. And I think it's something that is not isolated to just those people or that person, because honestly, Satan, the enemy, is the father of lies.
Joel Muddamalle:
Of lies.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And he loves to try to not only make us believe lies that other people have spoken over us. And I wrote one time in one of my books, when someone who puts a line on us, and sometimes if it's a lie, they put this line on us, that line then becomes something that we keep repeating to ourself, and it becomes a lie we believe. Which if we believe that lie, then the line that turned into a lie becomes a liability —
Jim Cress:
So good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— in all our future relationships. I'm really excited about your book, The Hidden Peace.
Jim Cress:
Me too.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Because I feel like it's going to help raise our awareness so much. And of course, the guide that we have linked in the show notes is going to be extremely helpful too. And it's "What's It Like To Do Life With Me?" So I love your four questions, Joel. And then the questions that we ask here are going to be really telling as well. And of course, you can fill it out for yourself, have your friend fill it out, and then, like you said, come together and have a great discussion. Jim, anything you want to wrap us up with today?
Jim Cress:
Yeah, a couple of things to look out for. I want to speak to, this will be fast, the Emperor's New Clothes ... this old, old tale where these two suitors come into town and convince this guy that they have a new suit of clothes. And then everybody buys in, be careful of that, everybody buys in and says, "Yeah, yeah." Now, he's naked, and they refine all the clothing. They get him to go through town.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Can you imagine?
Joel Muddamalle:
No, I can't.
Jim Cress:
True story. I can totally imagine. Have you not seen people like this? Do you not see all that's going on here. Everybody sees it. He goes through town, naked, and it's not until the child yells out, "He's naked." And then other people are going to go, "Yeah, yeah, he's kind of right." So he goes through it, and people are self-deceived to the point that if they don't have that internal awareness, he'll say, "I know I'm really naked here," or "I know this is what's really going on." A couple of key points you want to look for. OK. One is confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is simply when you're going to seek out or try to cling to information that will be an attempt to internalize or agree with, in a congruency, some internal belief that you have already. It's called a confirmation bias.
Look out for defense mechanisms. Like Shakespeare said, "Me thinks thou doth protest too much." Why are you so defensive? Or somebody shares something, you go to quid pro quo. Well, really, you're going to bring that up. Let me bring ... it's just getting right off the topic. Denial. Remember this with denial: Denial is really not denying the event. You see it. You see what's going on. You may see your own issue going on; it's denying, key point here, it's denying the emotion or emotions, plural, that you are feeling around the event. And then simply pretending, being in pretense. And this is someone that, we'll get into more about lying, and we've talked about it before, but you're pretending. You know you don't want to be in that job anymore, but you pretend you do; you're playing the role. Maybe even telling people, "No, no." Your voice pitches up. I hear that with people. "I really like it." You know you don't want to be in that relationship anymore.
See that lot with dating couples. And you say, "No, no." And you're afraid to end it. Or you're pretending even in your relationship with God. We'll talk later in this series on the God attachment. And God already knows your heart, and you're pretending that no, that things are really cool and all like that, and things aren't really cool. So pretending, it's like a kid, really. I think many of the things we struggle with, the lack of self-awareness and self-deception is very young in us. My offices have a sign, and I have, that says, "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?" And many of you right now may be afraid, like kids, to check and look at the monster that may be underneath the bed. You're just shivering, thinking I don't want to look at it. And mental health, we've said, what is mental and spiritual health?
Group:
A commitment to reality at all costs.
Jim Cress:
What will it cost me to face reality?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you so much, Jim, Joel, great episode today. I hope you enjoyed it. Remember, the resource we mentioned "What's It Like To Do Life With Me?" is in the show notes.