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The Navvai Shift β AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
It's a business at the end of the day.
Everyone wants to try and make money and
be profitable as a business, but also
you don't want to kind of throw away
your your core values
in in pursuit of that. It doesn't it
doesn't really make any any sense to do
that. Although there there'll be
companies out there that will that will
do that so that we can spend more time
helping as many people and so they're
spending a lot of time with individual.
How do you see digital tools reshaping
the mortgage broker industry because you
have been in the industry for quite some
time?
Welcome to one of our next episodes of
the Navi Shift powered by Navi. Great to
have Richard Branson on board, CEO and
founder of Mortgage Pro Sussex. So,
Richard, how you doing? I'm good,
thanks. Thanks very much for having me.
I appreciate you uh you getting me on.
No, of course, of course. So, Rich, can
you give us a bit more insight into
essentially what Mortgage Pro is? Uh so
Mortgage Pro Sussex is a online sort of
virtual mortgage brokerage essentially.
We're not kind of our brokers are kind
of based around the country. So they're
not typically face to face. Um mainly
since COVID it's it's more of a more how
things are being done these days. Um and
you know we have to make sure that that
um we're um servicing as many people as
we can. And obviously doing that face to
face you've got very small net to cast
essentially. Um so we thought well we
want to be a nationwide mortgage
brokerage and and having that not face
to face would was going to be better for
us. So as you did highlight the not face
to face how do you see digital tools
reshaping the mortgage broker industry
because you have been in the industry
for quite some time.
So, I mean, you've got you've got Teams,
you've got Zoom, you've got all of those
to to to be kind of virtually face to
face with a client.
Um, and there are there are tools out
there to make your life a little bit
easier. Um, you know, we we have like a
system where where it's a portal where
people can upload their documents and
things safely and things like that. So,
we're kind of taking away any kind of
hurdles that are stopping clients from
from feeling it's not particularly safe
just to constantly keep emailing stuff
and and things to us. So, we're trying
to we're trying to make it super secure
but also making it kind of accessible to
everyone. Yeah, definitely. And I guess
you've been seeing that client
expectations are definitely shifting
towards digital convenience as well. But
then have you still implemented a lot of
traditional methods into your strategy
in terms of how you run your business or
in terms of how you build have you keep
your relationships?
So yeah, it's kind of a bit of a split
probably a 6040 traditional 40 with with
kind of more the digital aspect of
things. Um, we do like to call our
clients and kind of give them an update
on how things are going, but we've also
got a CRM system where we're automating
kind of touch points throughout the the
kind of the sales process. Um, we find
there is a there is a bit of a fine
line. Um, at some point things are
probably going to go completely
automated um with maybe a very small
proportion maybe 10% of human interface
uh or or kind of someone just checking
over. Um hopefully that's not too soon
and hopefully we're jumping on that
bandwagon kind of at the right time.
Yeah. Um but but yeah, I mean how we do
it works. Will we kind of maybe do a
50/50 or a 6040 in the other direction?
It it really depends. We're dealing with
a lot more younger people. Um and the
younger people are all kind of very much
their phone orientated
um and apps and things. So you can see
the direction everything's going to be
going for sure. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. We
we've had we've had conversations with
mixed
um ages I should say and you know I feel
we feel people that are a little bit
more senior are not too adverse with
change but we feel that younger people
are just because they are more familiar
with you know as you said apps tools
systems and so forth. It's literally
just at our disposal. But um for the for
for the mortgage industry and you know
platforms that you guys use, are you um
are you familiar with any sort of like
automating processes? Are you seeing
that within the industry at the moment?
Definitely automated. Yeah, like I said
with the touch points, I think that's
that's huge at the moment. Um I wouldn't
say like a massive amount of people that
I know with the industry that are doing
it. Um, but it's just a case of there's
there's a lot of older people in this in
this arena where we are. Um, but there's
also a lot of younger people coming
through, you know, like we spoke about
previously before we come on. Yeah.
About estate agents. There's a lot of
the commercial estate agents where
they're really really hungry. They're
wanting to set up their own business.
Um, so they're probably going to do
really really well shortterm with with
everything that's there to their to
their disposal. Um, but I think there's
a lot of older people that will really
struggle with regards to the automation
side of things, taking that jump because
it's it's new, you know, old dogs, new
tricks. Yeah. Um, I'm 42, so I found it
quite different but necessary at the
same time. Um, and you kind of have to
just jump into something new to make
sure is it going to work and then if it
does work, you know, what does it look
like and how can you kind of tweak it?
Um, so that's what we've been doing
certainly over the last six months.
Yeah. Nice. Are you seeing it as
a your point of view also the industry's
point of view? Do you see it as a do you
see it as a threat or do you think it's
more of a compliment for independent?
Well, with regards to the automation
side of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, I think it's only a very good thing.
I mean, you can't give your client too
much contact. They're not going to be
like, "Oh, you giving me too many
updates on how things are going."
They're not going to be too annoyed
about that. They if you flip it around
and they're not getting any updates and
you're super busy and you're
concentrating on that next bit of money
and that next client and you're really
kind of the customer service and the
touch points with the client is falling
by the wayside, then you know client
retention and client experience is going
to be really different. Um, so that's
what I mean by like a fine line of
making sure that it's
um we are looking at it from a client's
perspective as well. Yeah. Um, which
which I think is really important
because they're the ones that matter,
right? So
nice. That's that's that's useful. Yeah.
What would you say is any specific
technologies that you're currently using
to help student applications if it's AI
or not AI but just in in relation to the
software they use? That's because
because we're part of a network, we
we're kind of given a system to use.
Okay. Um the good thing with the system,
like I was saying to you about the
document upload and being kind of on a
portal and and encrypted and things, we
we find that sending the client the fact
find to fill out
um works really well in two two two
different areas really. one is time for
the client because otherwise it's a 45
minute hour phone call for us to do it
because we you know nine times out of 10
you're going to ask a question for some
information it's going to kind of take
you down another avenue and then you're
not then you kind of digress and stuff
so we we send it out to the client like
I say for two reasons one time for them
it usually takes them sort of five 10
minutes to fill out um and it also from
our perspective it gets rid of the tire
kickers the people that aren't really
that kind of motivated to proceed
Um, so that that that just forms part of
our sales process really. Um, and then
we get notified when it comes back. Um,
when the documents come back and
everything's all there and it's package
and then you're like, "Right, let's get
in contact with that client to talk
about rates, uh, options, you know."
Yeah. And how best to move forwards.
Lovely stuff. I I've worked in the
industry before in terms of like real
estate. So, I do know from the mortgage
side of things sometimes, you know, when
it comes to like, you know, processing
uh applications, I know there's
sometimes been like hiccups and so
forth, but I mean, what would you say
are like the biggest roadblocks
preventing mortgage firm from, you know,
processing applications more
efficiently?
Um, accuracy of information that's
provided by the client, I would say, is
is definitely up there.
non-disclosure. You go and do a decision
in principle, you find out they've got
lots of other debts they've not
declared.
Um, I think that's kind of brought
around by maybe a bit of lack of
education. Um, or prior conversation to
educate why it's important to have kind
of accurate um, information provided and
stuff. Um, that typically slows things
down or clients that aren't fully aware.
Um, so we try and get the client to fill
out a credit file, do a credit file so
we can have a look at that, make sure
there's not going to be any hurdles or
or kind of surprises along the way, of
course. But in relation to hurdles or
what one what's one part of the mortgage
process that you say has to be
specifically focused to be changed in
terms of that improved industrywide in
terms of one part of the mortgage
process?
Um the underwriting SLAs's would be
good. I mean some lenders are good. Um
so their time scales in which an
application submitted to when they
actually offer. Um sometimes they'll ask
for additional information and then it's
another five working days for them to
review. You know if they're doing that
back and forth you know it's two weeks
gone straight off the bat. Um I think
that needs to be looked at. I think
there needs to be a little bit more of a
a kind of um a pragmatic approach to the
underwriting side of things.
Um then their focus is give us re we're
looking for reasons not to lend as
opposed to reasons to lend. It's very
negative approach to having a new client
and an experience, but they don't really
care about the experience side of things
unless they go direct. Um and then
that's it's almost like branchbased kind
of customer service. But to come back,
it's
more it's more they I think lenders
aren't really that bothered about the
experience the clients get from an
intermediary like us. Yeah. And
obviously the fact that we're bringing
so much business to their door um much
much more business than than they are
getting through their their own
channels.
Um it it's frustrating. Yeah, definitely
understood. But would you also are
partnerships with lenders changing due
to digital investments as of recent
years? Would you say? Uh I wouldn't say
it's what as far as lenders um and
lender systems and and
processes. Um it's some some lenders are
are still kind of very traditional with
their underwriting and their process.
Some are a lot slicker um where where
they'll communicate with the client
directly via email and phone uh email
and their app um similar to like digital
mortgages for instance which are part of
ATOM. You've got to put in the client's
email address and telephone number so
that they can they can kind of go on an
app and and finish off the process and
stuff um or or accept the offer and
things that that that moving forwards is
really good. Um, it's a really slick
process for the clients and I think as I
say for younger clients that are looking
to buy their first home, you know, we're
looking
at a kind of an area of people of
youngsters that are they were kind of
born with an iPad in their hands,
weren't they? Right.
I'm just happy that I just missed that
little
mark, so I like to think I got best of
both worlds. All of my kids have had
iPads and and stuff and they range from
15 to two. So, you know, they're all
they're all really interested in in kind
of technology
um or just kind of like wasting their
time looking at a screen, you know. Um
but yeah, I think that moving that in
that direction is going to provide for
for the niche that are coming through.
Nice. Okay. Nice. And and we know that
Mortgage Pro offers a very personalized
service. How do you maintain that
personal touch?
Well, like I said, with regards to the
the automation split and the
personalized split, we find it it works
really well. Um, we're constantly trying
to trying to get better at communication
with clients and how best to to meet
that particular client's needs. Um, so
we feel that we're at that point where
we're quite good at at kind of
communicating with the clients. we want
to jump on a call with them as many of
as often as we can just to kind of touch
base. Um, we also set up WhatsApp
groups. Nice. Um, with like him and her,
her and her, him and him, whoever, so
the the buyers together with the the
title of it is the property they're
buying or reorggaging. Um, so that they
can ask questions, we can respond
quicker. Um, it's a little bit more
forward thinking, I guess, in in that
respect. A lot of people prefer that.
Yeah. The other half sends us a
question, then the other half is going
to know the answer. It's all
transcripted. It's all there. You know,
it's quite a nice way. Voice notes, you
know, some some people want voice notes,
some people don't. Um I'm not really too
too bothered whether I'm doing a voice
note or not. Sometimes a client's in the
car and they want to leave you a voice
note or whatever. Yeah. But um yeah,
personality types, right? Yeah. Exactly.
You just have to it's you know the
you've been an estate agent, you know,
it's a it's it's selling 101. It's
mirroring the other. It's mirroring the
client, right? It's about trying to
understanding how they're speaking
uh and how they want to be spoken to and
how you know how you deal with them. Um
it's the same as that, but it's a little
bit more you have to kind of develop the
skills a little bit more online and over
the phone and stuff. You have to really
gauge that sort of very quickly. Um
otherwise, if you want to be too jokey
jokey and too kind of chill, they might
not see that as professional. They might
see that as kind of like really
unprofessional. Yeah. So, yeah, trying
to understand that um is is is difficult
at times sometimes because they don't
really let on too much. It's like poker.
Um but um yeah,
we seem to be doing all right in that in
that aspect. Amazing. Amazing stuff. You
you mentioned the the 50/50 split. So,
so we know that your firm has not fully
adopted AI, but um do you see it as
something that could, you know, enhance
Mortgage Pro in the future? I definitely
think there's aspects of our business
that could certainly do with it now.
Maybe like a like um an AI chatbot on
the
website.
Um maybe some some tools to make us get
maybe larger quantities of of marketing
out in front of people.
Um, and obviously you got Canva and
you've got AI within Canva and stuff
like that that you can use and there's
lots of videos that you can and apps
that you can do for videos and and
stuff. So, I think as far as the
process, I was thinking about this um
I've been thinking about it a lot. I
think having some kind of an app as a
mortgage broker would be
great where they're not just leaving
their information, but they're kind of
having a little bit of an idea of what
products based on their on some
questions.
Six months to a year ago, we were
looking at doing an app where we were
trying to automate kind of the beginning
part of the process. Um, not quite
getting to to where they're sourcing a
product and almost like a compare to
market kind of thing is that kind of
aspect that we were looking at, but I
think that would probably ruin the
intermediary market if I'm honest.
Um, and it would be very much a very
unpersonable way to do the mortgage sort
of things. Um, we just want to bring in
things that are going to enhance the
client's experience and also make the
process
slicker. Um, I think other than that,
unless the market dictates, there's not
really any reason to to kind of
like overkill it, you know. I agree. And
I think we're at a point where a lot
when a lot of people think about AI and
adopting it. They think it's going to
take over their jobs and replace them.
But I think we're at a stage where it's
more about complementation complementing
the human and using AI tools and also
yourself to get yourself into a place
where everything's streamlined,
everything's automated. And I believe AI
is definitely a way to complement that.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, anything that's
going to make make the journey easier
for the client and ideally for the
broker as well. Um, so that we can spend
more time helping as many people instead
of spending a lot of time with
individual clients. Um, you know, it's a
business at the end of the day. Everyone
everyone wants to try and make money and
be profitable as a business, but also
you don't want to kind of throw away
your your core values
in in pursuit of that. It doesn't it
doesn't really make any any sense to do
that. Although there there'll be
companies out there that will that will
do that.
Stack them high and see how many kind of
fall in the net. We feel that you're
integral. Richard say
integrity or integral. You have
integrity. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I
mean doing the job you you've got to be
honest. You've got to be transparent.
Um there
again there's a lot of people in the
industry that aren't or that have a
different kind of um agenda to to to
what the client setting out, you know,
but I've spoken to a client. I know
where that's going and they've not asked
enough questions. Yeah. They're very
kind of kind of focused on an avenue
they want to take the client. Um, I
always let the client lead the the the
kind of not the advice but lead the
conversation, get as much information
and then kind of move forward from
there. But yeah, 100%. Integrity is
huge. Amazing. Yeah.
In terms of like we know how great AI
can be, right? Do you have any what are
your concerns about it related to the
financial services service industry? Do
you do you have any concerns about that?
I should say it it depends to to what
level AI would would would be utilized
within the within the our industry.
Certainly um I would have concerns if it
was if if the kind of the intermediary
market was kind of
dwindling human wise um and being
replaced by AI um I think that would be
a shame
um just because you you're taking a
really personable kind of experience for
clients certainly the ones that are
buying their first property um and even
the ones after that that have bought
their first property but they've never
reorggaged before and they've never
they've never kind of moved house after
having you know buying a second home for
instance and stuff. There is there's
definitely still a lot of nurturing that
needs to be done certainly in the early
days of of a client having their
mortgage and then not to mention that
it's the insurance aspect of it and
understanding and educating. I can't see
that AI would
educate in an empathetic way like a
human can in that in that respect.
So, I think it will come in. I think it
will take over certainly much more than
it has, but hopefully it doesn't kind of
detract away from from, you know, those
really good brokers out there that are
doing such an amazing job. Yeah. Taking
taking the conversation away just from
AI just for one second. We've seen I
think there was news last week in
relations to the you know uh interest
rates. They've come down. So, how's that
how's that been for the business?
Um I mean with with regards to the
interest rates and the base rate coming
down I mean the banks aren't beholden to
reduce rates right you know the base
rate is is typically what what banks
would borrow from the bank of England
that because rates are below that you
know they're they're throwing out some
some some lower rates than the than the
base rate. So I think the biggest thing
is is once one lender like for instance
at the minute Santandere have kind of
put out they're going to put a sub 4%
out. Um once someone does that it kind
of has a domino effect with other
lenders that want to be super
competitive within a certain loan to
value or in a certain area of the
business. Um but yeah having the base
rate come down many a conversation with
clients since then that like well base
rate's come down by 0.25 25. So, you
know, rates are going to come down by
0.25. And I said, well, it doesn't work
like that. You know, lenders are lending
out savings. They're not lending out
money they borrowed from the from the
Bank of England, right? Otherwise, rates
would be 6%. With their markup on it.
So, it's down to lenders being
competitive and that's what's kind of
driving a little bit more movement.
certainly in the purchase purchase side
of things and people wanting to move
rates are coming down a little bit more
and they're thinking actually it's a
little bit more affordable to move and
stuff that's a really good direction to
be in certainly at the
moment I think one other question I
wanted to ask as well was just in
relations to self-employed individuals
and uh sometimes they have like complex
cases you know they face a lot of
challenges
do you does how do you think AI could
you know help streamline that to make
sure that their processes are a lot more
simpler compared to like a first-time
buyer.
Um, I think having the transparency of
of policy and criteria with lenders
would be good. Um, AI would probably be
quicker than us searching on like a
criteria brain or or another criteria
kind of search engine. Um, if you could
put in a more detailed description of
what you're looking for and it comes
back with something super accurate, that
would be brilliant. It would save so
much time, certainly on the complex
cases. Um, the industry is geared more
around self-employed people now than
certainly sort of 5 10 years ago. Um,
there's more criteria. There's a there's
a lot more kind of relaxed kind of
lending towards self-employed people.
certain not with everyone but with
certain lenders. So, um it's not as bad
as it was.
Nice. Nice. And from a client aspect, do
you think clients trust, you know,
AIdriven mortgage advice
or or do you think they would prefer the
human element?
Um I think certainly at the moment
people would probably prefer the human
element. I know Hibito and other
mortgage company's kind of trying um the
automated kind of AI kind of experience.
Um as as a buyer myself, I wouldn't like
it. You know, having having someone just
to pick up the phone to and having that
that that kind of individual to speak
to, I think is still really really
important. Um you're not going to go to
AI and buy a car just from AI because
it's giving you like a vocal description
of it. Yeah. Yeah. you're gonna want to
go see it. You're going to want to kind
of feel it. You want to kind of talk to
someone and just try and look in their
eyes and understand, you know, or
negotiate or whatever. You know, there's
certain there's certain places for it
and there certain places that I think it
would hinder.
Um, but it depends what comes out.
It just links back to that back to that
personal touch, doesn't it? Yeah, for
sure. 100%.
I'll say looking ahead as well, you
know, what would you say is the biggest
focus for Mortgage Pro Sussex over the
next, let's say, 12 to 24 months?
The biggest focus for us is to is to
grow. Yeah. Um is to take as many
brokers on as we can um to service the
clients that coming in. Um, we do a lot
of we do a lot of um social media
marketing and we we've kind of hit a
niche where we're we're kind of flooded
with with leads at the moment. Um, but
they're not really going anywhere
because we don't have the brokers to
really kind of deal with the volume. Oh
yeah. Um, so for us is yeah, definitely
we're in a growth period um where we
want to grow the business, take on as
many decent brokers as we can and you
know look after the clients we've got
coming in.
How many brokers have you currently got
in in your firm now? So, currently we
did have two brokers and an admin. We're
now because we don't really need an
admin because of our sales process is
quite slick. Um, we find it's not really
needed until we're at a certain level.
Um, so we've got we have Mary and David.
We've got David. Mary sadly left at the
beginning of January due to her
circumstances. Um but we've got our eye
on sort of four or five different
brokers that we want to bring on board.
Our network is kind of pulling back the
reins saying look you know you need to
just kind of like just maybe get a
couple on once they've got their cash
status and then start bringing more on
and then and then more and then it will
kind of snowball from there. But it's
difficult when someone else is putting
back the reins um when all I want to do
is just kind of get out of the traps and
and start getting as many people on
board as we can. Yeah,
other than that we say there's any other
major challenges that's essentially
preventing the scaling and fast scaling
faster I would say at a better rate. Uh
what is in taking on more brokers? Yeah.
So other other than just taking on more
brokers as well any other major
challenges that are preventing you from
scaling or growing at the speed that
you'd want to?
[Music]
Um the purchase market kind of getting
better and people more moving house that
would be good. Um most of our social
media stuff is is remortgage because
it's a remortgage market massively at
the moment. Um a little bit home mover
and porting and stuff. Um so I'd say the
market kind of recovering and and people
kind of started moving and stuff. Um but
as far as a business for us, I think
it's just a case of the recruitment.
um we have the leads, we have the if we
can get the recruitment along with the
leads and then everything else will just
kind of fall into place. Um we've got
the structure, we've got everything we
need in that aspect. Obviously certain
areas can be better, but it's just a
case of kind of tweaking and changing
that as we kind of evolve and get bigger
as a business. Yeah,
lovely stuff. You mentioned about social
media.
Um you said that you you found a niche.
Um, what sort of content you guys
creating? Is it like, you know, reals?
We posting like
carousels. What's that? Look, to be
fair, we don't do it. We've got a
marketing company that do it for us.
Yeah. Um, so we use a company called
First Digital Media in the north. I'm
down near Brighton on the south coast.
So,
um, because I don't know, you know, like
when I was talking about old dogs new
tricks, AI one being social media. I'm
not one that kind of picks up my phone
that's on it all the time and scrolling
and stuff like that. Um, and I'm
probably not the most uh adventurous
with regards to content.
I know what I want to talk to the
clients about, but then just kind of
putting that together as a as a kind of
a a finished product is is difficult for
me. Maybe it's an age thing. I have no
idea. Maybe I'm just not creative.
Um but um yeah, we get a company that do
our marketing for us and and they kind
of optimize it and they do all they need
to do, but we focus our biggest
marketing campaign is on NHS at the
moment. Oh, okay. Nice. Um so we seem to
be getting kind of like 100 to 150 leads
a month coming in. Um and between two
people, it's just it's mental. And I've
got like 12 years worth of power bank
that I need to service as well. Um, so
bless me and David having to to kind of
work crazy hours um trying to trying to
get all the clients in and and booked in
and stuff. So yeah, it's busy. We like
busy, don't we? Busy is always good.
Yeah, productive. Busy is good.
Productive busy. Reactive busy. Uh, not
so much. Um, setting up a business is
one of the one of the ideas of setting
up a business is to have better kind of
work life balance. Yeah. Um, and when
you're working like 8 to 8, um, dealing
with all these leads coming in, yeah,
it's short-term issue, but still it's
it's frustrating. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's
funny. It's frustrating.
Now, Richard, we know you don't we know
you don't have a crystal ball, right?
But, um, how do you know that?
Cuz I don't have one. If you had one, I
would have.
But how do you see the mortgage broker
in you know evolving in the next 5 years
in your opinion?
I
think the I think processes will get
slicker and the client journey will be
will be much better than it currently is
because I think we're certainly in
certain areas with with with I can only
really talk about brokers that I've
spoken to and obviously our process and
we feel our process is where it needs to
be currently but we all know it's an all
evolving market and it's an all evolving
industry so in five years I don't know
whether I'm going to be saying the same
thing. I could be chasing my tail
thinking I'm right behind or or you know
I'm not where I need to be. Um, but I
think definitely the automation and
having some kind of AI within the
industry, not not so much of a forefront
level, but as more of an aid for like a
customer experience uh area will be
really good because I think contact with
clients when you're super busy is is
really really difficult to kind of take
yourself away from I've done that one
over there that's banked essentially um
and my focus is on over here and going
back to that when it's already banked
essentially is is a is a difficult skill
to have. Um especially if something does
go ary and it doesn't go particularly to
plan or you know the sale falls through
or you know whatever whatever the
situation I think having something like
that within the next sort of five years
would be amazing.
Perfect. But there Rich, this has been
an amazing conversation. Really
appreciate your time today. Thank you
for sharing your insight and yeah and
how mortgage firms can compete in
compete in the first digital world. Much
appreciate for your time.