Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire (00:05):
Hello and welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire, and this will be a special edition of our podcast because this was a live interview with former Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence. The interview occurred in Indianapolis during the Career Education Convention on June 13th, and we were able to sit down with Vice President Pence and have a wide ranging discussion on issues related to higher education and politics and his views on current events. And I think everyone will be interested. So keep in mind, this was before a live audience. It was a podcast recording and we are proud to bring it to you right now. Mr. Vice President, thank you for being with us.
Mike Pence (00:52):
I'm delighted. Thank you.
Jason Altmire (00:55):
I think a good way to start would be to talk about what you've been doing for the past three and a half years. You're doing some amazing work around the world. You've started a foundation. Why don't we start there?
Mike Pence (01:07):
Well, thank you Jason, and we moved home to Indiana in the spring of 2021, and we've been busy. More importantly, my kids have been busy because we've seen the birth of three of the most beautiful granddaughters ever born in the history of the world. If you think about it, all the blessings you and I both had in our lives and opportunity, what are the odds that I would have the three most beautiful granddaughters? I mean, just statistically speaking. And my daughter Charlotte, who writes for The Daily Wire and married to one of my unworthy son-in-laws, who's a Navy pilot, is expecting our fourth. So best thing in Karen and my life is have been the blessings for our family. But being back home in Indiana, we did create, as Mark generously referenced, a foundation in Washington DC that talks about a lot of the values and principles that I reflected on today. It's called advancingamericanfreedom.com. You can check it out if you lose interest in this conversation.
(02:12):
I also wrote a couple of books. I wrote an autobiography that came out a little bit over a year. It's entitled, So Help Me God. Writes about my years in public life, including our record on these issues as well. It's available at amazon.com. I'm contractually obligated to mention that to you. But I also wrote a little book I was talking about at another convention here in town earlier this week. When the publisher signed us they asked us to write two books and they said, "We'd like you to write another book about maybe faith and family." And so my daughter, who really is a terrific writer, has a couple books under her belt. My daughter Charlotte and I wrote a book about just our family's journey and how our faith and decisions that we've made to put our family first have blessed our lives and it's entitled Go Home for Dinner.
(03:18):
Because back when you and I were serving in Congress people... Jason will tell you that after you've been in Congress a few years, people a lot of times come up with a very flattering question and they'll say, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" A lot of people see themselves in one spot or another, but I'd always answer it the same way. They'd say, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" And I'd say, "Home for dinner," because for me everything begins with faith and family. Everything begins with making decisions in our lives to keep a priority about what matters most for us. And so we wrote that little book and it's been well received, but traveling a little bit around the country and a little bit around the world and back in the four area of politics last year, it's been an exciting time for us and we don't know what the future holds, but we know who holds the future and we figured we'd see it best from Indiana. But we're blessed in every way.
Jason Altmire (04:26):
In Mike's introduction, and people might be surprised that you were a radio talk show host before you were first elected to Congress in 2000. And I think what's most interesting about it, you of course are a staunch conservative, unabashed in your views, but not confrontational. And the time when you were in talk radio was a time of great confrontation, a time when people were very bombastic and you took a different approach to that. So what did you learn from your experience in talk radio and why did you feel like that was the right approach? And I guess do you feel like that helped or hurt your ratings as a talk show host?
Mike Pence (05:09):
Well, I did. I hosted during the 1990s after I ran for Congress a couple of times, as you know, and lost, but I had opportunities to do a radio show and it ended up being syndicated all over the state of Indiana and was kind of like Rush Limbaugh on decaf. I'm someone, you know me well, and you embody this as well, Jason, I'm conservative, but I'm not in a bad mood about it. I don't begrudge people holding different views from me. And I tried to reflect that. I think I might've put that into practice on the radio program. I love having a good debate. I love having good discussion. And frankly, as I wrote in my book, which I don't know if I mentioned, I wrote an autobiography. I learned lessons the hard way. My first few campaigns got pretty rough, pretty negative. And I got to the end of my second campaign in 1990 and I had time to really reflect.
(06:23):
I'd made a decision to put my faith in Jesus Christ when I was in college and my Christian faith's the most important thing to me. But I looked at the campaign that I had run and it didn't really square with what I professed about how I'm supposed to do unto others. And I ended up writing an essay entitled Confessions of a Negative Campaigner, in 1991. I was just getting it off my chest, but ended up getting reprinted in a lot of newspapers in Indiana. And I just thought, if I'm back in the public debate, I always want to carry myself in a way that treats others the way I want to be treated, that hits hard on the issues, but hopefully shows the generosity that honors God. And so for me, I tried to make that define my radio show, and then when the opportunity to run for office came around again I always aspired to that. Not perfectly, but I always aspired to do that. I think democracy depends on heavy doses of civility, and I expect we're going to get back to that same. I really do.
Jason Altmire (07:39):
And on that note, I think you'll remember this story. We got to know one another in Congress. You were there for six terms, you rose up rapidly through the leadership, and you were someone, again, very conservative, very firm in your views, but collegial. You would come across the aisle, you would ask other people's opinions, you would share information and build friendships. And there was a moment in 2010, which I was a Democrat running for reelection in a very difficult district. And you came up to me on the house floor and said, "I just want you to know I'm going to go to your district. I'm going to campaign for your opponent.
(08:21):
I'm in the house leadership. It's what we're expected to do. It's nothing personal, but I'm not going to attack you. I'm only going to talk about your opponent." And you went up there, and of course I watched the news coverage and they tried really hard to get you to say bad things about me and you didn't do it. And I think that's one story. I'm sure there are hundreds of others of stories just like that. And when you look at the Congress today, it's very different than the Congress that we served in. That story is almost unimaginable in today's world. Do you feel like you could have risen up through the leadership and been as successful in Congress in today's environment?
Mike Pence (09:03):
Well look, the Congress of the United States today... And I will always consider myself a man of the house. I went on to be governor. I had the great privilege of being your vice president, but the house was a very special place. And with tight majorities, things get tough. But I think, I said this yesterday in another form. I think one of the best kept secrets in America is that the majority of people that run for office in both political parties actually are good, decent, hardworking people that are going there to try and make a difference for the country. And I think that's still true. I really do.
(09:50):
We live in an environment where with the world of the internet and clickbait and social media tend to reward the harshest voices. But I still think the foundation is there. And honestly, my confidence comes from that day, my first year in Congress in September of 2001 because I'll be honest with you, after a tightly divided presidential election that was ultimately resolved by the Supreme Court of the United States, when I arrived in Washington DC in January of 2001, it was a house divided. They'd gone through a season of a lot of harsh back and forth between the parties.
(10:49):
But on September 11th, 2001, I can tell you, when the plane came down in Pennsylvania, when the towers came down in New York City, when that plane struck the Pentagon, I witnessed firsthand that there were no Republicans in Washington DC, there were no Democrats, there were only Americans. And I will witness for every leadership in the rank and file, everybody came together and said, "What do we need to do to protect our country, support our troops, see our nation through this difficult time?" And I really do believe that that strength of character is still there today in the elected representatives of the American people.
Jason Altmire (11:37):
These are, of course, the audience that we're speaking to are school owners, people who've worked in higher education their entire life. And higher education has become one of the issues where there's great division in the country in all kind of ways. Most appropriately for this audience, it's the role of for-profit schools in higher education. But there are many other ways that higher education has been polarized. You were the governor of Indiana, one of the most successful states with regard to higher education in the entire country. What's your overall philosophy on higher education and how did that mold your decision making as a governor?
Mike Pence (12:16):
Well, I just believe in the free market. I believe in the wisdom of the free marketplace to sort out opportunities. And so the principle that we've applied here at Indiana, not just in post-secondary education where choice has been the order of the day, and I understand what people in this association had to deal with in terms of some of the critics that have come your way. But in Indiana from literally back in the 1990s, we've been expanding educational choice from kindergarten through 12th grade and it's just the principle that I have. Milton Friedman and his wife Rose were two brilliant economists, and their foundation is actually based here in Indiana because he saw Indiana as something of a mecca for educational choice.
(13:26):
And then you might say, "Well, why would Milton Friedman be that focused on school choice?" He simply said this. He said, "The United States doesn't survive without an educated citizenry." And as a free market economist, he said, "The only thing powerful enough to renew education in America is the free market." He said, "If you empower parents to choose where the kids go to school, you empower Americans with the broadest range of choices, the marketplace will work." And so it's the bias that I brought to the institutions represented here. It's the bias I brought to higher education in Indiana. It's just having the broadest range of choices and opportunities.
(14:09):
And we've had great success in the state of Indiana with what's now essentially universal school choice in the state and I really do believe that... As I said at the podium, or maybe I left it out because I didn't want to talk too long. I think our schools ought to work just as well for kids that want to get a job as kids that want to get a degree. And I honestly believe more school choice, more opportunities for families at every level will facilitate that and it'll contribute to the vitality of our country, our economy, and more importantly, the wellbeing of our people.
Jason Altmire (14:53):
And as you'll remember, when the Trump Pence administration came in after President Obama had tried to dismantle the for-profit higher education sector, the administration took a very different approach-
Mike Pence (15:06):
We did.
Jason Altmire (15:07):
... through Secretary DeVos and now we have a new administration and we're fighting some of those same battles. What is your view of how that has played out over time?
Mike Pence (15:19):
Well, I'm saying I'm very proud, and I appreciate you giving credit where credit is due to Secretary DeVos in our Department of Education. She'd been a champion of school choice all her life. When I was running the transition in early 2017, late 2016 after the election, I called Secretary DeVos and asked her to come in because she's just got such a heart for education in the country. And so it was a natural extension that with regard to members of this association, we would just continue to champion that. I think it's been disappointing to see the current administration reverse course on that in many respects, and particularly the avalanche of regulations that have flowed out of this administration in a broad range of areas. The foundation I created has published recently kind of a seminal piece of work on what's largely been an uncovered story.
(16:26):
You will live it in dealing with regulatory world, but it's that the story of Gulliver's Travels, it's one little lash after another, after another that ties down opportunities. But I think help is on the way. And I speak not so much of this November as maybe before the month is out because I think this Supreme Court is going to overturned the Chevron decision and reset the balance between the Congress of the United States and the bureaucracy. I mean, it's remarkable to think about it for decades, and I know you've had presentations on that today. I was talking to your general counsel about it. I told him I have no inside knowledge obviously, but my instinct is that we have a majority on the court that sees the excesses of the administrative state.
(17:33):
If Justice Neal Gorsuch, before we appointed it with the Supreme Court, had actually written an entire book on the administrative state. He's largely considered the leading authority on that. And Jason, you and I differed on a lot of different issues, but we never differed on the principle that we were the lawmakers in Washington. That federal agencies don't make law, they apply the law and unpack it, and they're supposed to do that and it's a proper role, but ever since the Chevron deference became a part of the law of the land decades ago, institutions like yours, small businesses around the country, large businesses always were faced with you begin with the assumption in the courts that whatever the regulatory agency said the law was, is law. And I would tell you not to get too deep in the weeds, but I'm very optimistic that our Supreme Court's going to give us a fresh start. And I honestly believe that the founders of this country, that hot summer in 1787... Okay, it was in Pennsylvania. We can go ahead.
Jason Altmire (18:48):
I was going to say that, but I didn't. That's right.
Mike Pence (18:51):
I knew he was going there. I think they came up with a framework for government, of separation of powers of limited government. I'm very passionate about the constitution, this business of resetting the balance between agencies of an executive branch and the Congress it's not a small matter. And I think with regard to educational opportunities, institutions like yours, and with regard to our economy broadly help is on the way, good day's coming. I really believe it.
Jason Altmire (19:25):
I would be remiss to have you here and not ask you the following question. You of course were President Trump's vice president for four years. You made news earlier this year when you announced that you would not be supporting President Trump in this year's election. He will be the Republican nominee. Can you explain your decision on that?
Mike Pence (19:49):
Gee, look at the time.
Jason Altmire (19:59):
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks.
Mike Pence (20:03):
Look, I'm incredibly proud of the record of our administration. Jason, I appreciate you acknowledging the work that we did for the institutions that are gathered here. And frankly, President Trump was not only my president, he was my friend. Some people think we're a little bit different, but we had a strong working relationship that in terms of the issues that called me into public life, whether it be a strong military, less taxes and regulation, conservatives on our courts advancing the sanctity of life, religious liberty, these are all issues that animated my career and my life. So to have been a part of the house... Let me just say to all of you, it was the greatest privilege of my life to be your vice president. And I want to thank you for the honor.
(21:02):
That said, the administration didn't end like I'd hoped. I'd taken an oath in January of 2017 to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And while I believe that there were irregularities and questions around the election of 2020 in a number of states, once the courts had resolved that, once states around the country had certified their election and sent electoral college votes, I believe my duty was clear. As the vice president, the Constitution says that I serve as a presiding officer over a joint session of Congress where it says the electoral college votes shall be opened and shall be counted. And there was this notion that emerged after the election that somehow I had the right to decide which elections to count or whether to send electoral votes back to states. But as I said then, there's almost no idea more un-American than the notion than any one person could choose the American president and the American presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone.
(22:17):
And I'll always believe by God's grace that I did my duty that day. I kept my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. But the former President has a different view to this day. Candidly, I'd hoped come around. I'd hoped he had seen that what some of his outside advisors had told him was just wasn't so. But that was not to be. But looking at that difference, but also candidly, Jason looking fairly at the ideas that have animated my career I'm somebody that believes America's the leader of the free world. And I see the advent in our party of a new isolationism. And I couldn't be more proud of Republicans and Democrats who recently renewed our commitment to lead the free world by supporting Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan in this difficult day. It seems that both President Biden and the former president are both walking away from our national debt. And I know what an honest broker you were when you were in public life.
(23:38):
I can't look at those three perfect granddaughters and say, we're not in our generation going to do what's necessary to lift the burden of debt off them. And finally, I see the former president and others in my party shying away from the cause of the sanctity of life and so for all of those reasons I announced a few months back that I won't be endorsing in this presidential cycle. I'll break news today and tell you that I can't vote for Joe Biden. That's never going to happen. Won't happen. But I thought Republican primary voters have decided who they're for. They have every right. I'm going to focus my energies the rest for this year and the years ahead on what we're for. Because I think America's success and prosperity is more tied up in our ideals and putting those principles into practice than in the outcome of any one election and so it's the work of our foundation, and that's where we'll focus in the days ahead.
Jason Altmire (24:48):
Well, on behalf of our audience, me personally, thank you for your support of this sector of higher education. Thank you for your service to the country. Thank you for your friendship, and we are grateful for you being here today. Vice President Mike Spence.
Mike Pence (25:04):
Thank you, Jason. It's an honor.
Jason Altmire (25:08):
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter at cecued. That's @ C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.