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Join us as we take a deep dive into the real estate market with insiders in the industry.
Episode #028 Transcript
00:00:23:09 - 00:00:50:06
Michael Conrad
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Business of Homes podcast. I'm Michael Conrad, and I am so fortunate because I get to bring you great stories about real estate professionals all over Middle Tennessee who are finding their way to success with by all sorts of different means and backgrounds. And of course, the thing that undergirds it all is what we're talking about here on this podcast, and that is to entrepreneurship and the business behind homes and behind real estate.
00:00:50:08 - 00:01:17:03
Michael Conrad
And so today we have Shannon Surgener here with me who is an amazing person, an accomplished actress and now a successful realtor out of the Hendersonville Gallatin area. And I'm actually fortunate enough to have known her before she was a realtor. She actually got a chance to work with me at one of my companies for a while, and we got to know each other, and I was very fortunate enough to have been part of her story and very excited to see her success now.
00:01:17:03 - 00:01:18:13
Michael Conrad
So Shannon, thank you for being here.
00:01:18:15 - 00:01:20:13
Shannon Surgener
Thank you for having me.
00:01:20:15 - 00:01:51:16
Michael Conrad
Shannon, one of the things I know and remember that we connected on early on was this idea that as former or current actors, you bring a certain, experience and background to whatever professional setting that you're in. Being an actor seems easy to some, but obviously there's a lot of complexity in it. And I always find it interesting when actors find their way into business and other things, because they bring a certain light and an excitement and certainly a showmanship to the table.
00:01:51:18 - 00:02:16:02
Michael Conrad
And I think you are still doing a lot of auditioning and acting. that's a former life for me. But that's was I mean, we connected on really early on and and now that we're both in business and sort of making our way in real estate, I think we bring a lot of that in. And I was kind of hoping to hear some more of your background for our audience and like how you're bringing in some of those old talents and skills into this sort of new world that you live in.
00:02:16:04 - 00:02:40:11
Shannon Surgener
Yeah. I never would have thought that my acting would be applicable in like a sales role, but I didn't realize until I actually started working with you that there's a lot of things that really overlap, and are quite valuable in a sales role. And, so my background a little bit about me, for those of you who aren't familiar with acting, I did a two year Meisner program in Meisner.
00:02:40:13 - 00:02:58:00
Shannon Surgener
One of the things they really focus on is you take the focus off yourself, and you place it on the other person, and you just become really curious about that person. And it's really to one make you present and, more interesting because you're really, truly in the moment and reacting to what that other person is giving you.
00:02:58:00 - 00:03:18:02
Shannon Surgener
And so I think that in itself really, I think paid off a lot in future roles in sales because you're really just having to become. I feel like one of the main things I say when you're going out there and you're building relationships and creating meaningful, meaningful connections is like, you know, take the interest off yourself. Become really interested in the other person.
00:03:18:02 - 00:03:37:09
Shannon Surgener
Right? Like that was one of the things that I know we talked about a lot in my role, with your company is like when you go to meet these, agents out here, you know, don't talk about yourself like it's all about them. Like, learn as much as you can about them. And so I think that that's something that I had no idea that, I don't know if you've ever read the book.
00:03:37:11 - 00:03:39:02
Shannon Surgener
big leap. AJ Hendricks.
00:03:39:04 - 00:03:39:17
Michael Conrad
No.
00:03:39:19 - 00:04:01:11
Shannon Surgener
Okay. So it's it's a really cool concept. He talks about your zone of genius. And I think that's something that I have discovered through transitioning from the acting world into sales is like my, I guess, superpower, if you will, of just being able to take the focus off myself, truly becoming more interested in that other person. And that's, I think, one thing that, I took away from Meisner that helped me, in sales.
00:04:01:16 - 00:04:26:16
Michael Conrad
I love that because if we begin to think of ourselves in the world of business as trying to deliver the same high quality product or service over and over, it's very natural for us. It's very human, ironically enough, for us to slip into these ruts, to become these sort of accidental automatons or robots who are delivering a set of, values or bullet points or even delivering a set of lines.
00:04:26:16 - 00:04:52:10
Michael Conrad
You say sort of the same things to a buyer client or to a listing presentation. You kind of say those same things over and over and over. If you look at the long view of it, like the stuff that you use in your listing presentation evolves, but the big bullet points don't. And so how do you keep the information fresh and thereby how do you keep your relevance fresh to that prospective buyer or that prospective seller in the future?
00:04:52:10 - 00:05:05:07
Michael Conrad
Well, it's like you said, you got to keep the focus on them and the way you turned it back. Curious. This is a great encouragement to our listener audience because curiosity is essentially selfless.
00:05:05:13 - 00:05:05:20
Shannon Surgener
Yeah.
00:05:05:22 - 00:05:23:09
Michael Conrad
You know, I mean, you can be curious about yourself. I suppose, but curious about others allows you to be selfless. And we are so essentially selfish as human beings that it's very natural for us to get into this place where Mimi Mead, here's what I've done, here's why you should work with me, here's all my accolades, here's all the reasons, here's my logic, blah blah, blah.
00:05:23:11 - 00:05:36:02
Michael Conrad
But it's like, if you're really digging into that other person, you're probably going to find your way to a really natural relationship born out of trust. And we all know who we want to be working with. People who know us, like us, trust us.
00:05:36:04 - 00:06:02:12
Shannon Surgener
Yeah, exactly. I think that that I that's something I didn't even realize, you know, and when I got into sales is like just that aspect of it, being really huge. But also, I think another major thing that, you know, we were talking about, before we started this podcast, like acting, how how much people don't see behind the scenes of, like, what that person had to do to get on that TV show or to, you know, get to where they're at in acting.
00:06:02:12 - 00:06:21:11
Shannon Surgener
There's so much, that people don't see the behind the scenes work that's happening. And one of those things is I would I told myself as an actor, actors, like 99% of my job was to be told no, because when you book something, that's the vacation, right? You know, sweet. and so I think I already came in, knowing that, like, part of sales is being told.
00:06:21:11 - 00:06:38:23
Shannon Surgener
No, like, that rejection piece is huge. And I think a lot of people shy away from doing the things like cold calling or doorknocking, because part of it is they don't want to be told no, they don't want to get rejected. They don't want to feel the pain of getting the phone hung up in their face or the door slammed in their face.
00:06:38:23 - 00:06:51:03
Shannon Surgener
Right. But if you're coming from an industry where that's literally your job, you've gotten used to being told no. I think that that also has helped me a lot, to just be able to put myself out there and not be afraid of, you know, getting rejected, essentially.
00:06:51:03 - 00:07:14:15
Michael Conrad
So, yeah, I have been obsessed with this phrase that someone mentioned to me recently, and it's really helped put me in a, I think, a healthy mindset in my day to day business. they said the game of baseball is a game of failures. and I was like, wait, what? Interesting. Okay, so every move that's being made on the field that's good by someone is a failure by someone else.
00:07:14:17 - 00:07:35:15
Michael Conrad
So if you play that game, you're going to end up with just a really high level of data points of failure in your game. It doesn't mean you can't be successful. The most successful batters in baseball missed the ball two thirds of the time, right. And so I think you could say entrepreneurship, business and definitely real estate specifically is a game of failures.
00:07:35:20 - 00:07:58:12
Michael Conrad
And if you don't go in with an open mind and open heart, maybe some thick skin, and be willing to sort of live into those failures as learning experiences or as like, guardrails, bumper rails. I'm playing. I'm playing bumper bowling. I know all the ways to not hit the bumpers now because I just hit the bumpers, but I'm going to get all the way down towards the end.
00:07:58:12 - 00:08:18:01
Michael Conrad
And so I love that. And I, as a former actor, definitely take that away of you hear no enough. And you start to realize, oh, I guess it's not really about me. Yeah, it's really just about whatever else it's about. But it's not about me. So I can, I can divorce or uncouple myself from that. No. And that like personal like assault that you kind of feel.
00:08:18:03 - 00:08:24:18
Michael Conrad
Yeah. And you're right. We need more of that in the real estate business because it's a numbers game. At the end of the day, just like acting.
00:08:24:18 - 00:08:52:15
Shannon Surgener
Right. And I'd say acting is probably worse because, I mean, you really have to have the stamina of the long term game because, I mean, you really could do everything in your power of, you know, becoming a good actor, working on your craft, doing all these things, and you're not guaranteed anything. I think in real estate it's a little different in that you can if you put in the work and you create good systems, like you will eventually see the results of that.
00:08:52:15 - 00:09:10:00
Shannon Surgener
It might not be on your timeline, it might not be in like three months. It may take six months to a year, but eventually you're going to see something from that. But I think it's keeping that stamina. And like you said, like those knowing those failures don't mean like, you know, it's the end. It's just one step closer to what you're working for.
00:09:10:05 - 00:09:30:09
Michael Conrad
Well, now it's my turn to say that is something I learned from you when we all got a chance to work together. Okay. Is that I always knew as a numbers game, but sometimes I got my emotions really wrapped up in, and I still do. And so you were good when we were working together about reminding me that if you keep grinding, the numbers will bear out.
00:09:30:11 - 00:09:51:05
Michael Conrad
And perhaps in this larger conversation about all the similarities between being an actor and being a real estate professional, this is one of those things that is actually not similar, is that you're right in the world of like fame and Hollywood and all that luck plays an outsized role too big of a role to even quantify and or comfortably talk about.
00:09:51:08 - 00:10:13:07
Michael Conrad
But in real estate, yes, there is a little luck present. But mostly there's grind. And if you put in the effort and knock those doors, send those email blasts network work your sphere of influence, like all the stuff it will bear out. It is more formulaic like that, and that's one of the things that you were good into who encouraged me and like because I was like, yeah, Shannon, it's a numbers game.
00:10:13:07 - 00:10:32:13
Michael Conrad
You're like, yeah, but no, but if I actually keep grinding it will bear out. And so that was cool and a great reminder for all of us that real estate can feel like luck. Especially I feel like beginner's luck hits hard in real estate. And I know it's just because when you wake up on the scene as a real estate professional, your sphere of influence is like, cool, here's all of our referrals.
00:10:32:13 - 00:10:38:05
Michael Conrad
And then that kind of dries up. And so then you got to go into that grind, but it will bear out. But you got to put in the work.
00:10:38:09 - 00:10:45:23
Shannon Surgener
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, going into acting is definitely not for people who need validation.
00:10:46:01 - 00:10:48:01
Michael Conrad
But that's what we're seeking. Of course.
00:10:48:03 - 00:11:04:16
Shannon Surgener
You know, because it's like you really can take it personal, like you're not, you know, getting those parts and in those roles. And so and I think it's very parallel in real estate, you know, you see like, oh, that person went with that realtor like, okay, you're with me. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I mean, so I think it could really be easy to fall into that trap.
00:11:04:16 - 00:11:09:01
Shannon Surgener
And so, yeah, you really have to kind of keep a strong mindset for sure.
00:11:09:03 - 00:11:42:14
Michael Conrad
But yet here we are at another thing that's not super similar, like personality brands very much exist in real estate, no doubt. And sometimes people consumers are buying the personality brand that that exists. That's real. However, because it is more business and should ever be more more business oriented, you can begin to erect sort of around you a set of values or a set of beliefs, or a set of actions or a set of like, benefits that are client or an experience that a client will receive as the you quote unquote that they're buying into.
00:11:42:17 - 00:12:06:08
Michael Conrad
It's not you the person that they're buying into. In fact, hopefully if you're doing it right, it's less and less about you. You're bringing a solid team around you. Maybe you're part of a larger team where you're benefiting from that sort of brand recognition. And so it's not as personal. It might feel a little bit personal because we live in a more Instagram oriented age in real estate than we have before.
00:12:06:10 - 00:12:31:06
Michael Conrad
but it's really not. And maybe that is one of the big connections in today's conversation that we're connecting to this, this larger narrative in this podcast about the importance of treating your profession more like a business than a job or a profession. It's it's something that you need to have some kind of cold, hard conversations and calculations with yourself on, in which to be successful.
00:12:31:06 - 00:12:39:20
Michael Conrad
Because if it's just about taking pretty pictures and putting them on Instagram or like hitting that stroke of luck with that big listing like it's kind of dry up at some point, right?
00:12:39:22 - 00:13:00:01
Shannon Surgener
Yeah. I think it's more important now than ever to have systems in place and to really know what your worth is and your value, especially with the recent NAS settlement. You know, I know that's like a hot topic right now. Like I think that the agents that have already had a system in place where they're doing those buyer consultations right up front, they're not gonna have any issues.
00:13:00:01 - 00:13:11:05
Shannon Surgener
But the people who, you know, kind of just like fly by the seat of their pants submitting that, you know, buyer rep with the offer there, it's going to be a bit of a it's gonna be a bit of a transition for sure.
00:13:11:09 - 00:13:30:00
Michael Conrad
It is. And just like in the world of acting, you have a sort of a probably a more narrower range of value than maybe you think you do. I know a lot of real estate pressures like I sell anywhere. I sell any type of product. But the truth is, you're probably better at a narrower set of things than not.
00:13:30:02 - 00:14:02:19
Michael Conrad
And sometimes you just don't qualify to be the right person for the job in that particular case. Like, sometimes not getting the part, so to speak, isn't really about you. It's about the criteria that was being used to find the you, whoever that is. and so, yes, expand your offerings, expand your knowledge. We've talked a lot about that in this podcast of be more relevant to a wider set of audience by increasing your knowledge, increasing your certifications, and being that deeper Wikipedia of the world of like real, real property.
00:14:02:21 - 00:14:09:16
Michael Conrad
but know that you're going to have limitations if you live one place, you're going to know that place better than, say, another place.
00:14:09:17 - 00:14:30:07
Shannon Surgener
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I live in Hendersonville, so most of my business has been in Hendersonville and Gallatin. Nice. although I would love to work more in Nashville. I mean, it's happened a little bit, but not as much as Hendersonville. So I feel like that is kind of where my space has started to grow more and like where I have more knowledge because I live there.
00:14:30:07 - 00:14:36:08
Shannon Surgener
So I can't get mad if like, someone doesn't want to use me in Franklin, that's just makes sense.
00:14:36:09 - 00:14:59:00
Michael Conrad
So you talked a little bit ago about this idea of the behind the scenes, like the larger part of the iceberg and what's immediately visible to people. And I find it funny and ironic and difficult and hard to wrap your mind around that. Yes. Both actors and real estate professionals, their job is to almost make it look easy on purpose or natural organic, when in reality is a lot of work to it.
00:14:59:00 - 00:15:20:06
Michael Conrad
And certainly the Nar settlement is highlighting a mismatch between what the Realtor community is feeling like, the value they provide versus the consumer community, which is feeling the value they receive. And so this mismatch can be very difficult, I think, for people to reconcile because it makes you say, well, what am I really offering? So what is something that you're doing specifically?
00:15:20:06 - 00:15:31:16
Michael Conrad
That's kind of the the little duck feet under the water that no one's seeing where you're swimming really hard. What is the stuff behind the scenes that maybe isn't as obvious, but it is providing like a real value for the world around you.
00:15:31:18 - 00:15:58:19
Shannon Surgener
I think going back to the team like you bringing up like having that team around you, having those different contacts, like when your clients are needing, you know, I don't even know, like blinds installed or, you know, they're needing some, referrals, like contractors for things in their house or they're needing an explanation on their title policy, you know, having like, all of these people in your Rolodex, just like, within seconds to be able to, like, refer.
00:15:58:19 - 00:16:24:23
Shannon Surgener
I think that's huge right there. you know, because, yeah, technically, I think I feel like this is true for a lot of things. Like, technically, anybody can probably go on and like Google things and try to do the research themselves. But I think a big value that a realtor brings to a client on the buy side, for instance, is being able to simplify that process and being able to have all that information ready to go for them so that they're not having to really do much.
00:16:24:23 - 00:16:42:14
Shannon Surgener
You're really just guiding them through that process. So I think for me, I'm, you know, still a baby in the industry. I'm still learning really what my value is. But I think so far that is what I have realized is my major value is having access to being able to connect all these different people to the client that they need.
00:16:42:16 - 00:17:15:02
Michael Conrad
Totally agree. I think that your referral network and that is wide from restaurants to title attorneys, I mean, everything in between. Your referral network is probably one of the last true great currencies of the real estate professional. It's really difficult to get it. So that means it has value. It's pretty different from person to person. So that value is unique to you and it's very difficult to disrupt it with technology in a focused way.
00:17:15:06 - 00:17:43:08
Michael Conrad
You're right. You can just Google what's the best restaurant or what's the best title company, and you're going to get a version of the answer. But if you want something that's more essentially human, the computer, even old good old ChatGPT, you cannot fully replace, that. And I feel like in the world of technological disruption in real estate, that the currency, the thing you offer in trade to a client, the currency of referrals remains super strong.
00:17:43:08 - 00:18:01:14
Michael Conrad
And one of the last great currencies that hasn't been disrupted by technology. And so it always bums me out a little bit when agents are nervous about giving out referrals, whatever type they are, because they're worried about maybe a negative experience that might reflect poorly on them. And it's just a mindset thing. I mean, gosh darn it, we're back at mindset.
00:18:01:14 - 00:18:31:20
Michael Conrad
But like it's a mindset of like, no, I'm going to live into trusting the referrals that I do give out. I'm going to know how to grade and like, keep good referrals in my Rolodex, or point people in the right direction. I guess if you kind of go back to a really old school analogy, the Dewey Decimal System and those little card catalogs and libraries, that was not where the information was, but to face the reality of having to search the entire library for the for the specific book or piece of information needed was too daunting.
00:18:31:22 - 00:18:57:02
Michael Conrad
It wasn't that we had a shortage of information, and we definitely don't have a shortage of information now in the world of Google and ChatGPT and all that kind of stuff. But parsing through it, knowing how to find it, knowing how to contextualize it or make it relevant to you, that part is super hard. So somewhere between the card catalog and the Rolodex, you know, we have to be the person who is directing that traffic through relationship.
00:18:57:02 - 00:19:10:04
Michael Conrad
Trust me, I'm the real estate professional. I'm your unbiased resource for all of these things, and I think that is a massive benefit. And so I was really excited to hear that you're focusing on that, because I think that's a great thing to focus on early on.
00:19:10:04 - 00:19:25:13
Shannon Surgener
And I think really going back to relationships, I think that is going to be one of the last things we have left when, you know, eventually I just takes all of our jobs and, you know, can do it faster than us. I think that's the only human element that we're going to have left that really, you know, can go beyond.
00:19:25:13 - 00:19:51:14
Shannon Surgener
What I can do is the relationship and human aspect of just being there for that person, emotionally connecting with that person through this like big purchase they're doing or, you know, whatever, endeavor it is an investment, just being there for that person to really just hold their hand through this process. and. Yeah, and just and it's either I feel like you're wearing so many hats as a realtor, honestly, you can be like, therapist, you know, kind of like mom and and.
00:19:51:14 - 00:20:00:04
Shannon Surgener
Yeah, and just having those resources that they need that up.
00:20:00:06 - 00:20:28:01
Jake Hall
Hey everyone. It's Jake, director for the Business of Homes podcast. I hope you've been enjoying today's episode, starting with Shannon's transition from acting to real estate, a direct connection between acting and sales, and how referrals are some of your most valuable currency. When we return, Michael and Shannon dive into finding the balance of what should be delegated, what makes social media so hard to begin, and the different types of success between full time and part time.
00:20:28:07 - 00:20:47:00
Jake Hall
You don't want to miss it. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram @thebusinessofhomespod, where you can interact with us and see some great bite sized pieces from all of our episodes. For you listeners out there, did you know our entire podcasts are filmed and are on our YouTube channel? Check it out next time you want to see our amazing guests tell their stories.
00:20:47:02 - 00:21:14:07
Jake Hall
And are you currently watching this episode in video format? Don't forget to follow us on your preferred audio streaming service to take us with you on the go! Lastly, do you have any feedback or want to suggest someone for the show? Email us at thebusinessofhomespodcast@gmail.com. Please enjoy the rest of today's episode with Shannon Surgener, let's get back to it.
00:21:14:09 - 00:21:41:17
Michael Conrad
I will say we are probably more capable of having emotional conversations or understanding emotions in today's society than we ever have been, and so we understand the importance of like the emotional caretaking that goes on, to like buyers and sellers. But we also are a more educated populace than ever before. We have better access to information and all this kind of stuff, things that were hidden about financial investing, you know, 20 years ago, is no longer hidden.
00:21:41:19 - 00:22:05:00
Michael Conrad
You know, it's all over TikTok, right? Yeah. And so I've heard a lot of real estate professionals talk about, you know, the role of therapist or shepherd or mom or whatever. And I think it's super important. But if that's where we stop, if that's where we stop, then we miss. I think the, the balance that a consumer's really wanting and that is yeah, I don't just need mom.
00:22:05:00 - 00:22:23:16
Michael Conrad
I need mom to also like guide me with technical information. You know, I need a willing, emotionally sensitive ear, but I also need that person to flip the script where a different hat and just be like, yes, but I've got you right now with like contractual language or the best title attorney who's going to fight for us in this way or this title policy or whatever.
00:22:23:16 - 00:22:43:11
Michael Conrad
And so, this balance between being more capable in the soft skills and at the same time, somehow more technical and capable in the hard skills. Oof, this is a difficult balance, never before. So it's probably harder to be a real estate agent successfully than ever before.
00:22:43:15 - 00:23:05:19
Shannon Surgener
Yeah. And then you add in the social media piece, which is another part that we've really worked on and focused on. This year has been my primary focus is really to just step up my YouTube game. but like there's so much that goes into that behind the scenes that people don't see, you know? And so and that has definitely been, in my opinion, probably one of our biggest values that we can bring to a client for.
00:23:05:19 - 00:23:13:17
Shannon Surgener
Obviously, a listing is the social media piece, because not every realtor wants to do social media, you know, and I think that that's they.
00:23:13:17 - 00:23:14:06
Michael Conrad
Know they should.
00:23:14:11 - 00:23:15:12
Shannon Surgener
Getting more and more important.
00:23:15:16 - 00:23:19:14
Michael Conrad
But they don't always do it. Yeah. Because it's, it's a, it's a whole world to tackle.
00:23:19:16 - 00:23:20:01
Shannon Surgener
Yeah.
00:23:20:05 - 00:23:35:21
Michael Conrad
It's a whole world to have to tackle. And it feels kind of like maybe more than I can handle sometimes, because I have to basically do the job that I'm supposed to be good at. I have to have the wherewithal to, like, keep up with everything around my job. And then I also have to, like, promote myself on this, on this platform.
00:23:35:21 - 00:23:39:01
Michael Conrad
It's very and it's like technical. You have to like, shoot videos and audio.
00:23:39:01 - 00:23:59:02
Shannon Surgener
And I mean, going back to the parallel with acting, I mean, that's kind of how it became with acting, you kind of have to be the writer, the producer, the director and the actor to now create success for yourself. You can't just you can't, you know, no longer just be the actor. Like, that's not enough anymore. And I feel like it's very similar with, being a realtor, you've got to pretty much do it all.
00:23:59:05 - 00:24:20:02
Michael Conrad
That is so wonderful analogy. I, in my acting days, loved to just show up on set with no additional sort of thought required and just be super present. I love that, but you didn't always get that, especially on some of the smaller films or, you know, stuff that, I mean, you're there schlepping, you know, the gear before you're supposed to go on camera.
00:24:20:02 - 00:24:39:08
Michael Conrad
You got to do your own hair and makeup or whatever, so you don't always get it handed to you. And I kind of shout out to all the wonderful digital marketing and production people, including my own digital marketing people who are making us look good even right now. Yeah, because it does kind of feel like you have to do all those things.
00:24:39:12 - 00:24:58:04
Michael Conrad
But to be successful, many people who have a polished product are doing it alone, you know? And I want to make sure I say, I'm not doing it alone. Anything you see of me or any of my companies online is being fueled by a team. But initially as a real estate professional, especially when you're starting out, it kind of feels like, what are the money for a team?
00:24:58:04 - 00:25:03:20
Michael Conrad
Not only I don't even know who the team members would be like, I got to do it all on my own. Yeah, I know you face a little bit of that.
00:25:03:22 - 00:25:21:10
Shannon Surgener
Yeah. Are you really have to find that balance between what you're going to hold on to in the beginning and what you're just going to delegate out. and I think that goes back to not to keep plugging the spark, but the big leap, you know, because he goes through the quadrants of like, I forget what the other titles of the areas are besides Zone of Genius.
00:25:21:10 - 00:25:36:02
Shannon Surgener
But there's another area where it's like, yeah, technically you can do that, but like, is that really a valuable use of your time or like, can somebody else be doing that task for you? You know, so I think that that's like a huge thing too.
00:25:36:04 - 00:25:53:10
Michael Conrad
Definitely feeling a little conviction when you talk about whatever zone that's called, because I feel like there's a number of things in my sort of entrepreneurial life where I feel capable and sometimes maybe more capable than those around me, but it's definitely probably not the best use of my time. It's probably hard for me. A lot of those things.
00:25:53:10 - 00:26:13:10
Michael Conrad
It's like I have to overcome, you know, the roadblocks to quality with just like, a lot of effort and time. And that's not always where we need to be. You know, we need to be leveraging by delegating. And that's really hard. I think I've seen enough real estate professionals to know that delegating feels hard out the gate.
00:26:13:10 - 00:26:27:19
Michael Conrad
I don't think you're taught delegating when you're going into real estate school. You need to know all the parts and pieces. So early on in your first half a dozen contracts that you're going to, you know, be involved in, you know, you feel like you have to do everything because you want to know all the parts and pieces.
00:26:27:19 - 00:26:36:02
Michael Conrad
And so delegating is both equally important and terribly difficult to do, as you're sort of on ramping into more of a regular real estate life.
00:26:36:03 - 00:26:53:22
Shannon Surgener
I have a funny story about that. so on my last transaction, we actually at my brokerage have, talks for free. Basically, that's just a service that's been provided for us. And so, I kind of was like micromanaging the whole thing, you know, not even realizing it. And the TK's like, well, what do you need me for?
00:26:53:22 - 00:27:08:16
Shannon Surgener
You know, you know, like, all right, let me back up and let me like, I've their comment down a little bit. You know, it's going to be okay. But, you know, I definitely think I was trying to overcompensate being newer at this and just wanting to make sure, like, everything is, you know, like, okay, we can check off that.
00:27:08:16 - 00:27:09:16
Shannon Surgener
That's been done.
00:27:09:18 - 00:27:29:08
Michael Conrad
Oh yeah. And that's like everybody's story. I feel like in some respects, because you're either crashing and burning because you can't keep it all together if you're not micromanaging in the beginning or you're micromanage. I don't know if there's any in between. The people that I see who are most successful at delegating have probably waded through that pool a little bit as well.
00:27:29:11 - 00:28:03:04
Michael Conrad
I know I have, but yeah, the social media piece continues to rear up in conversation as this like a very important piece of the puzzle. But there's a lot of misinformation out there. it's because it's a world of like, polished production. It's not immediately obvious about how to attack the more complicated things. And even if you're just like, I got the writing, shooting, you know, editing thing, there's a larger nuance in like, how and when and who's your audience, all that kind of stuff that that tends to make this difficult.
00:28:03:04 - 00:28:20:06
Michael Conrad
And real estate is so funny because you kind of need to reach a real estate audience, but then you also need to reach a regular person audience. And so kind of fighting this difficult balance between trying to reach two audiences, which usually means watered down and you're not being super successful at either. Have you faced that a little bit?
00:28:20:08 - 00:28:35:22
Shannon Surgener
You know, I haven't really thought about realtors being, our audience as much as just really focusing on our demographic, which primarily most of our clients have been investors, like out of state investors. But I think, ChatGPT has helped a lot with.
00:28:36:00 - 00:28:38:05
Michael Conrad
How to do tell.
00:28:38:07 - 00:29:01:23
Shannon Surgener
so there are like prompts that you can use in ChatGPT to really get specific on, helping ChatGPT help you basically so that it can really learn your business who your target audience is. and so if you can plug in the right prompts, it can really get to learn your business well enough to be able to one create some good content ideas, but also like scripts and things like that.
00:29:01:23 - 00:29:04:16
Shannon Surgener
So that has saved me a lot of time.
00:29:04:21 - 00:29:30:06
Michael Conrad
Amazing. Looks like I'll be hiring you later to help me with that. No you're right. it's like insert the Jerry Maguire clip here of help me help you. But, I have heard that that, you know, ChatGPT isn't a cure all. Or a silver bullet. In fact, in a lot of ways, you have to build the relationship, I guess, is the language with ChatGPT so that it can properly and more succinctly help you achieve whatever your goal is.
00:29:30:06 - 00:29:51:09
Michael Conrad
And so that's the future. I don't know if the AI is coming for all of our jobs so much as we're going to see a whole new type of knowledge worker who has the ability to interface with this tool just at a higher level than everybody else. It's kind of like those Photoshop experts out there that are just whiz bangs and can just execute in Photoshop, just way better than anybody else.
00:29:51:11 - 00:30:11:04
Michael Conrad
I think that's what it looks like. And you're right, specifically because it is about like aggregating large bits of knowledge of like, who's my audience? Or who's gonna be the best buyer for this house? Or what's the best way to communicate to some of the concerns of a traditional listing client? You can really leverage that larger body of knowledge inside of ChatGPT, so to speak.
00:30:11:04 - 00:30:33:16
Michael Conrad
It's not exactly how it works, but, to help you sort of move that direction. I'm interested to see if brokerages here's maybe a little of vision casting for the future. I'm interested to see if brokerages start to bring in ChatGPT experts, almost as if they're bringing in compliance officers and DC, because I think I think the jig is up at this point.
00:30:33:16 - 00:30:57:07
Michael Conrad
TCS are obviously beneficial. They are massive leveraging tools, and for a while they have been only in existence as part of these independent mercenaries outside of brokerages. And I think it's so obvious to me that brokerages should be, as they're evolving in their service offerings, be ensuring that TCS are just a natural part. Let us help you stay in legal compliance.
00:30:57:07 - 00:31:09:07
Michael Conrad
Let us help you facilitate paperwork and transaction. It is becoming more of a winnowing down to focusing on where you can be really great, which is managing your sphere of influence, opening up new doors and leads, and then of course, relationships.
00:31:09:09 - 00:31:10:22
Shannon Surgener
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:10:22 - 00:31:43:04
Michael Conrad
So as we're thinking about leverage and all of these different tools like TCS and, you know, the things that help us get ahead, sometimes we forget that our time and how we spend it is arguably the greatest leveraging tool. You know, like, yeah, people sometimes who are early in real estate think it's just going to kind of fall in their lap and they're not maybe not quite putting in the regimented time to be successful or to learn the process or, you know, to to fulfill all the different sort of roles and areas of learning you have to do.
00:31:43:06 - 00:32:05:18
Michael Conrad
But time isn't a trade where it's like, just because I'm in the office or making phone calls or knocking doors doesn't mean I'm gonna be successful, nor does it necessarily mean I'm going to learn. So our our interaction with time again, early in our careers as real estate professionals is something that I think a lot of people struggle to figure out, do I have to be full time?
00:32:05:20 - 00:32:27:08
Michael Conrad
Can I be part time? If I'm part time, do I can I work in a non-related job? Can I do I have to work in a related job? Like, do I have to be checking off some sort of boxes of like earned experience, like merit badges? So you've been knew or and you've been kind of rising through the ranks alongside other people who are newer.
00:32:27:10 - 00:32:31:07
Michael Conrad
what has been your experience with, like, how you spend your time?
00:32:31:09 - 00:32:50:11
Shannon Surgener
I think the most. Well, I'd say so how I have spent my time. Number one is pairing up with the mentor. So that's like I feel like super huge for anyone new in the industry is they need to find somebody who's been doing it longer than them and has has a proven system that works. So you can kind of plug in to that and take from that and see what works for your business.
00:32:50:13 - 00:33:10:05
Shannon Surgener
but I think it's also important to like, have something, that's providing some type of income for you because I think there's this, disbelief. And it's the same in acting where it's like, you've got to just go full in and you've got to just, like, leap out the window, jump out the window, and just go all in 100% real estate or 100% acting.
00:33:10:05 - 00:33:25:02
Shannon Surgener
Don't do anything else. And you're not willing to like, struggle, you know, and be hungry for the success. You're not going to be successful. And like, I think that can work for some people. And I think there's people who've obviously made that work where they're living out of their car and struggling. But like, I've never been able to do that.
00:33:25:04 - 00:33:49:16
Shannon Surgener
when I was pursuing acting, I was a single mom, so I had a child feed, so I couldn't just, like, struggle. I had to have some type of income coming in. And so I think it's really important to figure out, like, what works for you personally. and I think for me, I really struggle with that with real estate, where I was kind of comparing my journey to other people's as a new realtor, and I'm like, oh, well, that person just started out and they're already doing XYZ, you know, what can I do?
00:33:49:18 - 00:34:11:07
Shannon Surgener
And so I think it's really important to really think about, like what works best for you. And it's okay if you need to have another job and it doesn't have to necessarily be have anything to do with real estate. Or it could and really figuring out what that is for you. But you have to you going back to time management, you really have to be strategic with your time and make sure your time blocking or it doesn't work.
00:34:11:09 - 00:34:39:15
Michael Conrad
Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that the goals we have for success have to be more, specifically defined than just full time, part time. Those are two general or, you know, even number of transactions, you know, isn't going to just magically happen. Like there has to be a greater sense of, like, I need to achieve success in this little tiny category because it's a building block towards a larger sort of goal of success.
00:34:39:17 - 00:35:00:00
Michael Conrad
Yes. I, I two remember in fact, I quit school, in college to go to Hollywood to make my way. And I, I think now, in retrospect, I also believe that that if I wasn't, like, basically living destitute and, I think I sort of somehow self-sabotage myself to live in my car for a couple of weeks.
00:35:00:02 - 00:35:03:14
Michael Conrad
because I think I, I believe that narrative that you had to.
00:35:03:16 - 00:35:04:17
Shannon Surgener
Prove your hunger for it.
00:35:04:17 - 00:35:28:23
Michael Conrad
Yes. And that someone was going to hear that and somehow believe that you're going to want it more or be able to produce better on camera or something like this. And so that hunger and that fire just made me cold and hungry, you know, like, I mean, it it is difficult to sort of grapple with that. And we're always measuring our current success against other people's like quote unquote, future success.
00:35:28:23 - 00:35:45:01
Michael Conrad
Like they are not always where we are and no one's guaranteed the same speed or type of journey. and so, yeah, I, I definitely have some biases. Happy to confess that, like, if you're not doing real estate full time, you know, you're not doing it right, you know, or whatever.
00:35:45:01 - 00:36:02:12
Shannon Surgener
And so and I get it because I think some people need that motivation and that drive to feel like that push of like, okay, I need that pressure. But I'm like, I, I'm, I know myself, I'm naturally an ambitious person. I don't need to feel like I'm not going to pay bills next month to have that desire. Like I it's already inside of me.
00:36:02:12 - 00:36:23:14
Shannon Surgener
So I'm like, I'm going to do the thing, you know? I'm like, I actually feel like I have had more success in real estate, not feeling desperate for the next deal. it's actually made me a better realtor. Oh, totally. So for but some people need that, you know? So, I mean, I'm not saying it's for everyone. I just think it's important for you to figure that out, what that is for you and what system works best for you.
00:36:23:14 - 00:36:40:05
Shannon Surgener
And, I think not comparing yourself is going to be super huge to other realtors. Other actors, but only just comparing yourself to like who you were yesterday or the person that you were. As long as you continue to grow in your journey like you're being successful.
00:36:40:08 - 00:36:46:02
Michael Conrad
So you're licensed. Day one do you did you launch in full time? Did you try to go more part time?
00:36:46:02 - 00:36:52:12
Shannon Surgener
What was your journey? I had a baby right after I got my life. I did the opposite of what probably most people.
00:36:52:12 - 00:36:54:20
Michael Conrad
Do all the things at once.
00:36:54:22 - 00:37:12:16
Shannon Surgener
I wanted to, I wanted to get my license because I knew once I had the baby that it probably was going to get put on hold for a while, because I was going to be busy with taking care of a baby. And so, and so I didn't really start doing I didn't start pursuing real estate until probably about like four months after I got my license.
00:37:12:16 - 00:37:19:02
Shannon Surgener
And then when I did, it was really part time. I was doorknocking in my own neighborhood with my baby strapped to my chest.
00:37:19:04 - 00:37:22:01
Michael Conrad
So that's how tug on the heartstrings, right?
00:37:22:01 - 00:37:35:02
Shannon Surgener
And it worked. so yeah. So no, I, I technically have not done full time real estate to this day. I've been a part time realtor, and that's worked fine for me where I'm at. And in my life and with my family.
00:37:35:02 - 00:37:43:10
Michael Conrad
And and was it has it been all part time with the other part being kind of off more family focused, or have you kind of taken into the professional world in other ways?
00:37:43:16 - 00:37:59:11
Shannon Surgener
No, just just part time real estate and then the other part time or the other part time. The other remaining part of my day was focused on family. So we really didn't want to do we we tried to put off doing the whole daycare thing for a while. So the first year, we had a part time nanny.
00:37:59:13 - 00:38:18:10
Shannon Surgener
So that was my time, my window to work on my real estate business. and surprisingly, I actually did get some traction despite 2023 being a hard year for, I think, a lot of Realtors that are even seasoned. So, I, you know, was definitely I started off the first year thinking, oh my gosh, I'm getting my first listing.
00:38:18:12 - 00:38:35:15
Shannon Surgener
That didn't happen due to, you know, a lot of sellers who ended up holding on to their house because of low interest rates. And, you know, the whole mantra of like, oh, I got a really good interest rate, so I'm going to just keep my house. so it really, I think delayed a lot of things that I thought were going to be a certain way and wasn't.
00:38:35:15 - 00:38:49:18
Shannon Surgener
And so that's why I really encourage new realtors to think about, like, what is going to be your, your way of, you know, making income in that first year because it might not be what you think it's going to be. Yeah. So preparing yourself for that.
00:38:49:20 - 00:39:10:01
Michael Conrad
Yeah. That that is a definitely a common theme across a lot of entrepreneurial journeys, a lot of businesses and industries is that if you're starting something kind of out of the dirt, out of nothing, then there's going to be a hold your breath period. Yes, of course, there's always that lovely beginner's luck in real estate that happens, but there's going to be a hold your breath period.
00:39:10:01 - 00:39:31:12
Michael Conrad
You can't, you know, just think it's all going to hit quick. And even if it does hit quick, it's probably going to dry up quick, too. And you're going to have to know how to survive both financially and practically. You're going to have to be in the right headspace. when I was living in LA, way back, I finally gave in and was like, I have to get a job to, like, make some scratch.
00:39:31:14 - 00:39:56:03
Michael Conrad
And so I got a job as a telemarketer. Oh my gosh. And on my very first day, I sold so much stuff, that I was like, oh my gosh, this is so easy. And then I never sold another thing for three weeks. And I got so down. Yeah. Did I just like, pull the ripcord and got out and I my takeaway from that is we have to have a better sense of like what our goals are and like can't get too down ourselves.
00:39:56:03 - 00:40:14:14
Michael Conrad
But yeah, that hold your breath period was certainly true for me. And it's one of the things I definitely advise anyone getting into any sort of home services company or real estate related thing, like you have to be able to plan for a much longer term sort of on ramping period than maybe you think, so that you can reach those goals.
00:40:14:14 - 00:40:31:03
Shannon Surgener
Right. And I think your why just becomes so much more important during those lows to know, like, what are you actually doing this for? You know, why? Why is it so important. Because otherwise yeah, it's it's really easy to just be like, just forget it. I'm just going to go get a job full time or like, not do this anymore.
00:40:31:09 - 00:40:43:19
Shannon Surgener
Which is why I think we have such a low success rate of realtors and actors. You know, it's like that instant result isn't happening fast enough. And then they, you know, get out.
00:40:43:21 - 00:41:08:13
Michael Conrad
Well. And to take it full circle, I think that in light of the recent Nar settlement and a lot of the tech disruption that we've seen over the last ten plus years, the why you are a real estate professional becomes looming in importance, because are we only in real estate because of money? Are we only in real estate because we didn't have to do maybe as much corporate paperwork or whatever else?
00:41:08:15 - 00:41:26:09
Michael Conrad
Like there's no guarantees that the money is going to be the same, or that the, that grinding effort isn't going to look a little different or even more of it. And so we have to know our why, so that if we're going to be in it, we're going to be in it for the right reasons, despite whatever changes may be coming down the path.
00:41:26:11 - 00:41:47:15
Michael Conrad
I think that's good. encouragement for people who have been in the business one month, one year, ten years, whatever it is, is that know your why. Because we're not guaranteed a static environment, a static marketplace. Disruption is around every corner. I should not be surprised, but I guess I continue to be surprised at how much changes have taken place over 1012 years.
00:41:47:17 - 00:42:03:04
Michael Conrad
And so it's really exciting to see someone like yourself who has just as a great, awesome background. And you're I feel like you have this great head on your shoulders and how you approach real estate. Thank you. I love your success. I know you're going to be more successful. I'm excited to see your journey and thank you so much for being here today.
00:42:03:04 - 00:42:05:07
Shannon Surgener
Of course. Thank you for having me. This is awesome.
00:42:05:07 - 00:42:28:15
Michael Conrad
It's great. Well, I want to have you back because we didn't even talk about the fact that you have this great partner that you work with full time and the way that you guys have formed a duo, and the way that you've attacked a locality in an area in a really laser focused way is super admirable. And I think it's a good story for a lot of real estate agents to hear, because it is a really clear path towards a certain type of success.
00:42:28:15 - 00:42:31:19
Michael Conrad
And I would love to have you back at some point. So we could talk about that.
00:42:31:19 - 00:42:32:13
Shannon Surgener
I would love that.
00:42:32:13 - 00:42:57:14
Michael Conrad
That's great. All right, everyone, my name is Michael Conrad. I am a real estate professional here in Middle Tennessee. I'm loving the world of houses and business and how it all intersects. And so I'm grateful to be here telling these stories and bringing people on to tell their stories. So stick with us. Hit subscribe. Hang in for these conversations because we are dropping gold nuggets all the time to help you on your real estate journey.
00:42:57:14 - 00:43:00:00
Michael Conrad
I hope you'll join us. We'll see you next time.
00:43:00:02 - 00:43:04:23
Shannon Surgener
Bye!
00:43:05:01 - 00:43:27:02
Jake Hall
Hey everyone, Jake again, Director for the Business of Homes podcast. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. A huge thank you to Shannon for being a part of the podcast. Go follow her on Instagram at _shannonsurgener and let her know how much you enjoyed their story. Don't forget to subscribe on your preferred listenin@thebusinessofhomespod. Do you have any feedback or want to suggest someone for the show? Email us at thebusinessofhomespodcast@gmail.com. Thank you again for listening and we'll see you soon.