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Deepen your friendship with God through informative conversation and personal spiritual disciplines. Each episode focuses on a different topic and how we can approach it from a spiritual growth perspective. Whether it's talking about relationships, the Bible, prayer, cultural issues, anxiety, or anything else related to your life, this podcast looks at how we can live as disciples of Jesus. Episodes feature conversations with authors, professors, or pastors.
Brought to you by Saddleback Church. Hosted by Jason Wieland.
This is the Saddleback Church podcast. Last year, I released an episode of this podcast called The Burden and Gift of Living. I had read a book called On Getting Out of Bed by Alan Noble. And even though I was not able to interview him at the time, I needed to talk about this book. No book resonated with and spoke to me so deeply as on getting out of bed did.
Speaker 1:And so at that time, I think this was December of 2023, I ventured on doing my first solo episode of this podcast, just me talking about the book. I I had to talk about it so much. Well, the topic seemed to strike a chord as in the 6 months since its release, that episode has become one of the most engaged in the history of this podcast. And those numbers just continue to go up. People are finding that episode still every day, and it is clearly speaking to so many people.
Speaker 1:I'm Getting Out of Bed, the book, is a look at the struggles of everyday living and the reality of mental affliction so much sometimes to the point that some people constantly wrestle with the question of why even get out of bed. The book is a a beautiful essay on the reality of brokenness, on the goodness of God, and the hope of healing. Well, today is a day I have eagerly awaited. My guest today is doctor Alan Noble. He is the author of my favorite book of 2023 on getting out of bed.
Speaker 1:In this conversation, Alan and I talk about why the topic of life's burdens speak to so many people. We talk about how generations approach mental affliction differently. We talk about whether or not to openly discuss your own mental afflictions. We talk about the hope of healing. We talk about the role of those who care for those who struggle with mental afflictions.
Speaker 1:And, oh my goodness, we talk about so, so, so much more. It is a a wonderful conversation with a wonderful author and I'm so excited for it. My name is Jason Wieland, and this is Doable Discipleship, the Saddleback Church podcast, part of the Saddleback family of podcasts. Now my conversation with Alan Noble. Alright.
Speaker 1:Doctor Alan Noble, thank you so much for joining me today. I've been I've been anticipating this and hoping that this would happen for for for a while. So anybody who's listening who has listened to the episode that I released, last year called the burden and gift of living knows that I've been hoping for this to happen. So thank you for for joining me today. Really thrilled to talk with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm I'm thankful to be here. I'm excited as well.
Speaker 1:So so I mentioned to you before we started recording, but, but I I I recorded an episode of of of this podcast last year where I talked about the book And, basically, how I did it is I I kinda I went through and talked about some of the core ideas and just kind of expounded on them with my own thoughts, how it's how how I think about it, how it relates to me, just thoughts that I had around it. And it is since then, it's actually become one of our most engaged episodes ever, and we've been doing this podcast for 7 years. And and so so and that was only 6 months ago that this is that this episode released. So this topic seems to clearly resonate with people. And so I wanted to ask you, why do you think that the topic and I titled that episode, the burden of gift of living, which is the subtitle of your book.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that topic resonates with so many people?
Speaker 2:Well, we're in the middle of a mental health crisis for one thing, And this particularly affects the young, but, also those of us who are middle aged. Just the rates of mental health diagnoses are just, going up. The world is a challenging and, difficult place to navigate. A lot of people are stressed. They're anxious.
Speaker 2:They're depressed. They want some kind of an answer. And what I think exacerbates this problem is that we live in a society where suffering is seen as a problem to be fixed. So all problems have some kind of solution. You just have to have the right product or service to address it.
Speaker 2:And what that does is it it creates this feeling that if I have a problem, it's my fault. If I have some problem, if I have anxiety or depression or relationship difficulties, it's my fault because I haven't found the right product responsible, but sometimes it's just the way of the world. And we have to responsible, but sometimes it's just the way of the world and we have to deal with that. But that creates this sense of anxiety and tension in us. And, of course, you know, there's plenty of research to show that social media is having a a real detrimental effect on our mental well-being, and we're all on social media.
Speaker 2:And so that's part of the equation as well. I I I think we're just living at a time where we're both acutely aware that mental health is a legitimate and a serious, topic and issue that people are wrestling with. But at the same time, a lot of people are feeling alienated and alone in their suffering. So it's a it's a kind of strange time. It's both, less taboo of a topic than it used to be.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. People are more open about their diagnoses, but at the same time, a lot of people feel like they can't speak to their loved ones or their friends about what they're going through. And that creates a hunger in people for for a voice to that just describes what suffering is like.
Speaker 1:I I I think there as you said, it's this this interesting dynamic. And what I think is at least what I have noticed, and I'm curious if you would say the same thing, is that it seems around younger people or the younger generation, there's, as you said, there's a lot more openness. The taboo has kinda gone away from talking about it with each other. But if a young it but the younger generation talking to an older generation, there still seems to be this kind of a wall. It is kind of a like a I don't know if it's a lack of understanding or if it's just because an older generation is coming from a place of, hey.
Speaker 1:Like, we just handled things ourselves. We just figured it out. We didn't talk about it. You know, it's not something if you if you talk about it too much, then you are giving it credence kind of thing as opposed to, having that openness. So so it's this it's this weird dynamic where where there's this generational divide almost that still seems to be prevalent in how anxiety and depression and other mental health issues are talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I and I think, part of that divide has to do with with social media. There's a subset of of young people who are being self diagnosed or or who are self diagnosing from from social media, from Instagram posts and and TikTok.
Speaker 2:And that creates another dynamic that is strange, because you can you can find a sense of community in a mental illness in a way that is just, odd for older generations. That that doesn't make sense as a as a form of community. But for young people, for many young people, that's what makes sense, and that's what gives them a sense of belonging and explains their their their suffering.
Speaker 1:I I think I think there's something that draws people. And while while I love the title of the book on getting out of bed, I also Yeah. Think there's something to that subtitle of the burden and gift of living in creating this dichotomy because I think so I think so many people find themselves in a place, especially if they've been struggling with mental health issues or of any kind of issues at all that they feel the weight of burden, you know, and it and it might cling to this I you know, these ideas of life being nasty and brutish and short handed. They just feel this this burdensome weight. And to see it juxtaposed clearly next to gift is like, okay.
Speaker 1:Wait a second. Like, that might okay. I might need a little bit more of that. Let me see what this person is talking about in it, and I think there's something there too that is is so powerful.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. I mean, that's what I wanted to give an account of is that that dichotomy, is that tension that we live in, that everyone lives in and has always lived in. Right? This is the human condition.
Speaker 2:On the one hand, we are people, beings who suffer tremendously. Everyone suffers in this life. This is the part of the human condition. Mhmm. But on the other hand, it's miraculous that we exist.
Speaker 2:Our very being in the world is a gift from a God who loves us and cares for us and is actively creating us and sustaining us moment by moment. That's amazing. It's it's a miracle. Our being is a miracle, And our being is also a burden that we carry. And, one doesn't cancel out the other.
Speaker 2:Now, eventually, when Christ comes again, things will be resolved. And we will we will only be left with the miraculous.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But for now, we suffer like our savior suffered. Mhmm. He suffered in this life and His being was miraculous too. So, why should we expect that we're not gonna suffer?
Speaker 1:Now this is is clearly a deeply personal book. In in in within it, you share a number of personal stories. So I wanted to ask how how have you maybe seen the way that you think about anxiety and depression change the more you write about it or talk about it? Have you seen your approach to it, or has it has it has it changed at all just the way that you even think about it, or how have you seen that dynamic play out?
Speaker 2:That's an interesting question. Yeah. So this is the genre of this book is is odd because it's not a memoir. I I tell some personal stories, but I don't, I don't talk about them as my story. It's not it's not a book about my struggles.
Speaker 2:It's not a memoir. It's not exactly a self help book. It's certainly not a book of professional advice because I'm not a mental health professional.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I I I I tried to distance myself from from being too too vulnerable because I think one of the temptations that we have in the contemporary social media world is oversharing. Right? Everyone wants to share all of their business. And so I don't tell, for example, what mental health diagnosis I have in I mean, it's pretty obvious. I I say that I struggle with anxiety.
Speaker 2:Right? But that's super gentle. Like, who doesn't struggle with anxiety? Like, that could mean a bazillion different things. Right?
Speaker 2:And I did that purposely because I didn't want it to be a book about me. I wanted it to be a book about the human experience. I also thought of it as a letter from a friend who really cares about you, who wants you to understand the experience of going through suffering and what you need to do to to move through that suffering to a place of wholeness. And so in in many ways, it was a book written to to myself, sort of my wise mind writing to my struggling mind Mhmm. Giving it myself, like, the the wise counsel that I needed to hear.
Speaker 2:And some of it was wise counsel that I heard from friends, you know, who I thank in the, at at the end of the book and and some from myself. But as far as how much this has changed my own thinking by writing about suffering, you know, it's it's it's remarkable, how little, I've changed in my thinking, on suffering and on anxiety and depression because of writing. I still find sometimes sometimes people will send me quotes from the book, and they will be sources of encouragement. Yeah. And and I'll realize, oh, I wrote that.
Speaker 2:I forgot who wrote that. That's true. I needed to hear that today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess the remarkable thing is not that I sort of came through and and grew in my understanding. I'm I'm sure some kind of growth happened. The remarkable thing is that, this the this advice is is advice that you need to hear over and over again. It's kind of like the gospel. I mean, the gospel is woven through it.
Speaker 2:You need to hear it over and over again because you forget. You get lost in your mind and you forget these fundamental truths that can help you, you know, get through the day.
Speaker 1:Well and and to me, a a a big part of the reminder that's so true in this in the book is that almost encouragement, but also just just that reality check that that there are good days, and that's great. But the bad days still come back, and we still kind of enter into this ebb and flow. And don't beat yourself up as saying, like, I thought I had made progress and now I'm back where I was. Now I'm back asking myself the question of, do I get out of bed or and and giving that encouragement of that, yeah, that that comes back and it's true. And it's this may not sound like encouragement, but it is because it's that reality check of, like, don't beat yourself up for not being farther, you know, as far as you wanna be for not being healed.
Speaker 1:Instead, it's the reality of, hey. It it but you, you know, every every little step counts. Every little every little moment of greater understanding of who you are and who God is, that's that that's a win. And even though you found yourself back in bed
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's still a win. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's so important. One of the one of the realities of of dealing with a mental illness is that you have to take time to count your wins. Yeah. And I think this is true of all mental affliction. In the book, I talk instead about mental illness.
Speaker 2:In general, I talk about mental affliction, which is a broader category, which includes just people who struggle because their, you know, their family situation is is is depressing or whatever it might be, the work situation. But you have to count your wins, because what depression and anxiety do is they make your world smaller and smaller. They constrict you. They hold you in. They make you inhibited.
Speaker 2:They make you feel like you can't act in the world and you can't do things. And these are, of course, lies. These are lies that will keep you trapped. And a lot of what moving towards wholeness and health looks like is recognizing that you have more agency than you realize and that you can take steps towards wholeness. And, it's not just a matter of taking those steps, it's a matter of taking those steps and then recognizing that you've had those wins, that you've done those things.
Speaker 2:And so some days that looks like, hey. I got out of bed. That's a win. I'm counting that as a win. That's that's awesome.
Speaker 2:I I fed the dog. I I, you know, cared for my kids. I made lunches for my kids. I whatever. I took a shower.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's a win. I'm gonna count that as a win. And, you know, there have been times in my life where I've I've literally just made it a practice of every night, you know, I count up my wins, and I thank God for the things that I was able to get done that day. And they're not, you know, exciting things, in a traditional sense. But, I know that they're they are exciting in another sense because I was able to overcome a a burden that was that was heavy, that was weighing on me.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And it's through that process of taking little steps of making, taking steps towards the block as I as I Mhmm. I quote TS Eliot in the book that that add up and make a life worth living. And, of course, there are some days where you can't get out of bed, and I wanna recognize that too. Right?
Speaker 2:There are some there are some people who go through serious periods of suffering where getting out of bed feels, impossible and, unbearable. And, there's grace for that as well, and that's when you need to to call on the help of friends and loved ones and professionals and get that help you need. But even then, being an advocate for yourself and calling someone, texting someone, saying, I need help. Can you come sit with me? I can't get out of bed today.
Speaker 2:That's an action, and that's a win, because you're moving towards wholeness. You're moving towards health, and that's an exciting thing.
Speaker 1:I have people in my life who who have struggled in the same question of why get out of bed, and sometimes that is is a a deep struggle for these people. And one of the ideas from the book that truly resonated with them was the idea that that sometimes the greatest act of worship is the next step, is just taking a step. Yeah. Right? And Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so so that idea of counting these wins, but also looking that at that in the in the guise of worship is so powerful for people who love Jesus so much and who and to who have these periods of deep, dark struggle and start to question, like, their their meaning, their purpose, their existence. And so to to to look at those tiny wins in relation to worship was so powerful these peep for these people.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. That's great to hear. Yeah. It is it is an act of worship. Our bodies are are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:And when we choose to live the life that God has given us, that is an act of worship. We are glorifying him. We are saying we are agreeing with him that life is good, that his creation is good, and that creation in includes us. Our being is good. And so every day, every moment of every day, we have the choice to either embrace this existence that we've been given or to deny its existence by distracting ourselves or hiding from it or numbing ourselves or getting into addictions or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:And when we choose to embrace this life instead, I do believe that that is an act of worship to God, and it it honors him. It's an it's a pleasing aroma when we accept that this life is beautiful and good because he made it, and he loves us, and he cares for us and sustains us every moment of every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I I you had mentioned that there are people who sometimes they just they just cannot get out of bed and acknowledging that that is a reality for for some people in sometimes. And to me and so so to put it into this into this lens of worship, I think there's something powerful in just saying, okay. You can't get out of bed. Your breath, the next breath you take is worship because that is an acknowledgment of your creation, of you as a created being of the perfect God.
Speaker 1:And it is an acknowledgment of his goodness that he thought to make you. So even you can't get up and do the thing, that's alright. You can't help but breathe, and that is Yeah. And that in itself is is worship in a way.
Speaker 2:That's worship. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the things that happens when you struggle especially with depression, but also with anxiety is, as I said earlier, you feel inhibited.
Speaker 2:You feel like you can't act. You can't do anything. And it becomes this self fulfilling cycle. Right? So you feel like you're a failure, because you can't get out of bed, and then you start becoming a failure in a sense.
Speaker 2:You start or at least in a worldly sense because you start neglecting your family, you neglecting your job, neglecting your friends, neglecting your hobbies. And then you feel worse, and that makes you even less inclined to do things. And so what I think is so liberating about this message is you come to realize that, you are not a failure. You are doing things. You are take taking steps.
Speaker 2:You are living, like you said, by taking a breath. Yeah. What what you're doing is you are acting in the world, and that is a pleasing aroma to God. So the the bar anxiety and depression will tell you that the bar to living a fulfilling life is incredibly high Mhmm. And you are a failure and you can't reach that bar.
Speaker 2:And what I wanna say through this book is that that is a lie that your brain is telling you, That actually just by embracing this life and and choosing to live it, you are you are surpassing the bar, and God is pleased by you, and your action, your choice to live.
Speaker 1:What has what has your personal journey with God been like as you've navigated, you know, different different areas of mental affliction, but also just navigated this this journey that you've been on through this book and and and before that? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think, for me, one of the challenges has been that, you know, I grew up believing that you can trust your emotions as emotions are the vehicle the Holy Spirit uses to, to speak to you. And I do believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us and that that can be that he that he does communicate. But, I I was raised to think, for example, that if you make a decision and you don't feel peace about it, quote, unquote peace about it, then that's the Holy Spirit telling you you're in sin or that's not God's will. Or if you do something and you feel bad about it afterwards, then that's clearly the Holy Spirit convicting you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that was something that I had to and I'm still really unlearning because it it it's it's sort of visceral. It gets under your skin, this idea that your emotions are, this the way the Holy Spirit speaks to you. And and so one of the things I had to learn about God was that God knows our hearts and he's greater than our hearts and he knows all things. And that was powerful, but it's been a difficult process for me to just learn to accept that that that God speaks through his word, that he speaks through the wise people in your life.
Speaker 2:And, your feelings can often just be wrong. You're feeling you can you can feel you can feel fine about sinning and you can feel terrible about doing good things. Your feelings don't match reality, often. At least mine don't. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, I can't depend on them. And instead, I have to trust that god knows my heart, that he loves me, that he desires for me to have wisdom, that he will send me the wisdom that I need to make wise decisions and to to to live in in his will, and, relying on my emotions as a bellwether for what is what is righteousness and what is depravity is is foolishness. Because I think the enemy likes to use my emotions to to distract me, to to keep me from pursuing good things that that God wants for me in my life, things that are good for other people, as well. So that's been one of the main lessons that I've had to learn, and that's there's a kind of radical dependence upon God because my mind will be saying through my emotions, you're in sin, and you need to repent. And I've had to rely on God and trust that, in these situations, unless, you know, unless there's clear evidence of sin, that that that voice, it's that you know, we know that's what the accuser does.
Speaker 2:Right? He can he tries to convict us of our sins and including sins that aren't actually sins. And so there's a kinda radical dependence upon God and his love and his forgiveness and his grace that I've had to develop, that I've had to grow through is a process of sanctification, as I've struggled with, you know, various mental afflictions. And, that's been good for me. It's been challenging, but good.
Speaker 2:And now I guess that's the process of sanctification in general, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and that's what's it's so fascinating. So, like, on on this podcast, we've talked a bunch recently and both and we have even more stuff coming about talking about what we've learned with neuroscience and how the emotional side of the brain is the face is the first point of contact, any sort of input. It goes through the right side of the brain first. That's the emotional side of the brain.
Speaker 1:So the first thing that gets gets, activated are the emotions, and then comes the logic side, the thinking through of it. Right? So it's very it's very easy to see how how the emotions can be manipulated by the enemy then in because he knows that's the first point of the of the way that input happens. Yeah. So he's gonna, you know, even though God made us emotional beings and there was so much beauty Right.
Speaker 1:In that, What Satan likes to do is is is get his claws into the things that can be beautiful and to, you know, break it up. And so it's very easy to see why he would wanna manipulate our emotions, and that's where we have to also engage that logic side. And as you were saying, it's like having to grow, and that's the sanctification part, having to grow this God holy spirit filter that's almost like the center part of our brain where it's like, okay. It might come through this side first, but it has to be filtered through this what I know to be true of God in in his in his love for me. And then I have to make a decision of is this a lie or is this true based off that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's been a difficult process, but it's been good. It's been beautiful. And I think that one one thing that God wants me to understand is that even outside of, you know, the, you know, the issue of mental affliction, I need to grow that filter. That filter is an an important that everyone needs that filter, that ability to discern.
Speaker 2:Right? I think the biblical term would be to discern the spirits and to discern what is what is what is from God and what is from your mind or the enemy even. And I've come to rely heavily on the counsel of people who I know as wise people. You know, the word the English word, conscience means to know with, to know with someone, to know with other people. And, that's how I've come to accept what a conscience is, is it's a process of knowing with the wider church, knowing with my friends, knowing with elders, knowing with counselors and and and wise people who can help me see when I can't see very well for myself.
Speaker 2:Because there are times when my mind gets hijacked and I can't see very well. And it's not that I'm it's not that I'm offloading my decision making, it's that I'm I'm learning to trust the community that God has given me to help me see clearly, when I'm struggling to see clearly.
Speaker 1:And I'm so glad that you took it there because that's what I I was I was gonna ask you next and this ties in perfectly is I wanted to ask you kinda about the role of people who are caring for people who are suffering. So there's, there's a lot of, of, of books. There's a lot of, of content that is designed for people who are suffering in some certain ways. Now and, again, I would say that your book is on the on the best end of that, but there's a lot that's focused on the person who is who is in the middle of the struggle. There's not a lot Right.
Speaker 1:That I found around the person who is who is called or has found themselves in a position of caring for the person who is the one struggling.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so I'm curious to ask you, how how would you describe the role of the quote, unquote caregiver in this case?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great question. I think the first step for the caregiver is, the cultivation of empathy. And so reading a book like mine, and there are others, can help you understand the experience if you haven't gone through it yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that allows you to better speak into somebody's life.
Speaker 1:Very true. I can say this firsthand. It it definitely helped me understand my my loved ones in a better way for sure.
Speaker 2:Good. Good. That yeah. That I mean, that was part of the goal because you're gonna have as a caregiver, you're gonna have some natural responses. If you're not familiar with this kind of suffering, you're gonna have some natural responses that, aren't actually helpful.
Speaker 2:Right? Trite trite sayings, there can be a lot of frustration and bitterness. Why can't you just get out of bed? Why can't you just, do the next thing? It's not I'm not asking you to do something that hard.
Speaker 2:Why can't you just do this? And those are perfectly reasonable questions to ask. And so knowing what what what mental affliction is like and how you can get stuck in this this bubble of suffering can prepare you to be to have the empathy you need to speak into someone's life. Because the challenge of being a caregiver is that you have to speak truth into that person's life when their mind is telling them lies. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And you have to speak truth in a winsome way, in a way that that allows them to see the truth and to embrace it because their mind is going to be working against you and striving to get you, get them to to stay stuck. And, so you have to to speak the truth to them, and sometimes that's gonna be hard truths. Like, honey, I know this is difficult for you, but I but I need you to go eat. Because, when you don't take take care of your body, your mind is gonna turn against you, even more. It's gonna be harder for you.
Speaker 2:So I need you. I know I know you don't feel like it. I understand. I know you think I'm bullying you, but I need you to eat something. I need you to drink water.
Speaker 2:I need you to get some sunlight. Alright? These practical, basic life things that we all need to survive and to thrive and and flourish, Sometimes you have to speak hard truths. Sometimes you have to tell somebody, I I think you need to pursue professional help. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because, for some people going through struggles, that's a bridge too far. They don't want to admit that their problem is that bad even though they're, you know, they're falling behind and stuck in bed. And so part of that truth telling involves speaking hard truths, and you need that empathy in order to do that effectively. And then and then also, you need to tell them kind truths as well. Remind them of god's love for them, when they tell you that that they have a hard time believing that their life is worth living or that there's something meaningful for them or that they're they're lovable or whatever it might be, whatever lie their mind might be telling them, it's important for you to be there to as a caregiver to to speak the truth in love and and to tell them that's that's a lie.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people just need someone sitting with them and saying, I'm so sorry that you feel this way. I understand that these feelings are real feelings, but that thought is not the truth. It's a lie. And so I want you to take a leap of faith and act on the reality that that's a lie and go get up and eat some breakfast. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I yeah. I think it's so important. You mentioned this right at the beginning of your answer, and it it really stuck with me. Is this idea that, yes, it it, you know, it seems it seems to me to make all the sense in the world, like, you know, it's not that hard to get out of bed.
Speaker 1:It's not that hard to do you know, like but that's the reality of what mental affliction is is you're right. It doesn't make sense, and it's but it is the way that it is. And, you know, so for the caregiver, taking that step out of what you think is logical to embrace almost the illogical and just say you are not in that world right now that in in what this person is going through is is not at this point of where you think things make sense. It doesn't make sense, and you need to embrace what doesn't make sense now and just still kinda, you know, still just know that you are stepping into a different way of thinking at this moment, and your job is to be an anchor. And it's not to, you know, it's it's not to try to say, like, makes it's not to try to make things make sense for the person.
Speaker 1:It's just to try to be there for the person until that weird cloud of nebulous thinking just go you know, can can pass for the time being.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. And just be a comfort. And and I think, you know, we live such busy lives. The, and that busyness is mostly our own fault.
Speaker 2:We make ourselves busy. And so one thing I think a caregiver can do is just to cultivate a life of availability. You know, some of my best friends, some of the people who've just ministered to me the most were people who I could text at or call at the drop of a hat and they would pick up, or they would text back. And just just getting a few words of encouragement could carry me through the day, could allow me to teach a class, could allow me to to move on, to do something, to to do the next thing. And so I think we have a challenge when we wanna care for those we love to to make sure that we've not created a lifestyle, that is just packed with things that prevent us from being present in other people's lives.
Speaker 2:And that's true regardless of of mental affliction. Right? Like, we ought to be, as Christians, the kind of people who can show up and help people move or help people, you know, you know, with their plumbing or help people or help sit by somebody's bedside as they're as they're suffering with a mental affliction.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. We touched on this a little bit earlier in a conversation, but I wanted to hit it a little more pointedly. I wanted to in and just ask, do you do you encourage people to be open and talk about their struggles or maybe is it different from person to person? And and how would you for anybody listening who maybe has a a mental affliction of their own that they maybe haven't talked about or whatever. How would is there a counsel that you would give them knowing that each situation is different?
Speaker 1:Is there a general counsel I should say?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great question. This is something I've thought a lot about because I might I I have my own struggles that I've gone through and I've written a book about mental affliction. And and I had long conversations with close friends and my editor about how much to divulge and how much to not divulge. And, you know, I you know, with the caveat that you just gave, which is it it really does depend person to person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we need to live in attention. On the one hand, we need to be very cautious not to overshare. Not everybody needs to know our business. That's that's just a truism. That's just a practicing the virtue of prudence.
Speaker 2:Not everybody needs to know our business. Not everybody needs to know our struggles. It's not they don't they don't need that burden. They don't need that. You don't need them knowing.
Speaker 2:It's just not helpful. And it can it can lead to problems and confusion and doubts. And and so I think, for the vast majority of people, my advice would be don't don't overshare. Don't announce your condition on social media. Don't, announce to the entire world what you're what you're struggling with.
Speaker 2:There's there's usually not a need for that, and it, and it what it can do is it can tempt you to to put your identity in that mental affliction. And that's a that's a trap. That's a trap. It's not a it's not a once you put your identity in a mental health diagnosis, then you're gonna be it's gonna be harder to move towards healing because you're gonna see it healing as taking away your identity. And so that's really that really becomes problematic.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, I think all of us are, too hesitant to share with those who ought to know. And so we need to be with our loved ones, with our close friends, with those in the church who we, you know, elders in the church, people who we respect and who are wise, we need to be taking steps to bring them into that suffering so that they can speak to us and encourage us and be those caregivers that we're gonna need. And so I think the prudent thing to do is to live in that space be between, to live in that tension, to recognize that oversharing is harmful to yourself, and it creates temptations that are not not gonna lead you towards healing. And at the same time, it's really important for you to share. And it's not just important for your own healing.
Speaker 2:When you open up in a small group of people about or or just 1 on 1 Mhmm. About what you're going through, what you're gonna discover is other people are going through stuff too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they were scared to say something. And when you opened up, that gave them permission to be vulnerable too. And vulnerability spreads When when you are willing to when you have the courage to be vulnerable, other people have the courage to be vulnerable as well through modeling that for them. And so that can be a real blessing in someone's life. So we live in that space and that tension, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. As we as we start to wrap up our conversation, I I wanted to ask, is there anything that you it could be something that you we've already talked about or it could be something completely different. Is there is there anything that you wanted to leave people with as an encouragement for anybody who is listening, who has who has their own struggles right now? Is there any sort of encouragement that you would wanna leave them with today?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, the first encouragement, that I would have is that whatever you're suffering with, whatever thorn in the flesh that you have right now, it's not the final word. It's just not. You will be healed. It may not be this side of paradise, but you will be healed.
Speaker 2:We we serve the great healer and and He will heal you. And for many, if not most of us, there's substantial healing to be had in this life too. But that's that's a healing that we're going to have to move towards, that you're gonna have to be your own advocate. You're gonna have to get up. You're gonna have to choose to contact a professional.
Speaker 2:You're gonna have to choose to share your struggles with somebody. You're gonna have to take the initiative, because that thorn in the flesh is gonna tell you that it's never coming out, and so there's no point in trying to move towards healing. And that's one of the lies. That's one of the lies. There is healing available.
Speaker 2:We have great resources for mental for mental health problems, and it's really a matter of taking, the initiative and moving towards them and not growing discouraged when you don't get the help you need with the first therapist or counselor that you that you see because it's a very common experience to go through several of them before you find the right one who's able to help you. Yeah. Same thing is true with medications. Sometimes it takes time, but but having patience and and fortitude and just moving through that is is key. So that's the first thing I would I would say is that you need to be an advocate and recognize that you are going to be healed at some point, and there's substantial healing available for you on this this side of paradise.
Speaker 2:The other thing I would say is that that that fundamentally, you must remember that your life is a gift. As I've said repeatedly, your life is a beautiful gift by God who knows you and loves you. And that knowing is so important. He knows you completely. So all the parts of yourself that you think are too ugly or too hideous or impossible or inadequate to share with the world, he sees those and he he loves you.
Speaker 2:He loves you anyway. So there's, you know, there is no reason for you not to love yourself because God loved you first. We love because he first loved us, and that and that love includes loving ourselves. This is one of the hard lessons that I had to learn. I I was somebody who's very skeptical of self love, and I talk about this in the book.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Because, you know, growing up in the nineties, it it it just felt like self love was just kind of cheesy saccharin self help way of improving your self esteem. Mhmm. Right? And the question I always wanted to ask was, I should love myself.
Speaker 2:Why? Why should I love myself? I need an answer. What makes me lovable? Right?
Speaker 2:And the answer that people give is you should love yourself because it's really productive to love yourself. You're like your your your life will improve. But that's not a reason to love yourself. That's just that's just it's circular logic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, but then I read a Thomas Aquinas scholar who who taught me that we love ourselves because God first loved us, and we don't know better than God. If God loves us and He sees all our flaws, then we should love ourselves. So that's another message that I would send to to comfort someone is that you are lovable and you ought to love yourself, and loving yourself means taking care of yourself because you are a gift from God and you deserve that love.
Speaker 1:Well, the book is on getting out of bed. I I I literally cannot recommend it any higher than I'm doing so right now. So please check out this book. The link will be in the show notes. Alan Noble, thank you so much, not just for your time in this conversation, but thank you for your vulnerability for for embracing this call that God has put on your life to talk about the these these issues and to just be such an advocate for people in this way for for a a a group of people that often go unadvocated for.
Speaker 1:So I'm just I'm so grateful for that and thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It's been a wonderful time.
Speaker 1:Let's look at some next steps from this episode. 1st, please, please, please, please, I've said it a few times in the episode. I will say it again here at the end. Please buy and read the book on getting out of bed. I I truly cannot recommend it highly enough.
Speaker 1:It's a short book. I think I said this in my previous episode about it. It's only like let's see. This is not great podcasting, but it it's only a 104 pages. So buy the book.
Speaker 1:2nd, find trustworthy people to talk about your struggles with. This is something that Alan was talking about a little bit later in the episode. Find trustworthy people, and maybe it's just one other person to talk about your struggles with, to, you know of a people who are willing to share in that burden with you. There's so much power into it. God made us to be relational people.
Speaker 1:He made us to need others in all areas of our life, including our areas of struggle. 3rd, talk with God about what brings you back to remembering his goodness. Times of struggle, times of suffering come. It is unavoidable. It is just a part of life.
Speaker 1:So in the times when you're not in the midst of that suffering or that struggle, use that time to give yourself the tools for whenever those times come. Now maybe it is a goodness list, something that you can just pull out and that you can you can look to, and maybe it's memories or things to remind yourself of or whatever it is. Maybe it's making a a playlist of songs that just bring you back to a place where your eyes are more fixed on on God, where you can maybe look through those dark clouds and see his rays of sunshine through. Whatever it may be. Talk with God about it.
Speaker 1:He will honor what you this, and he will in just allow him to give you a vision for what you can do in those moments. I'll put the link also in the show notes to the previous episode that I did on this topic where I go in in-depth in talking about the book and talking about the different themes and important key points of the book. So I I'll put that link into it as well if you want to listen to that. I'm so thankful for Alan Noble for being my guest on this podcast by the book. And, my name is Jason Wheeland.
Speaker 1:This has been doable discipleship friends. We will be back with you again next Tuesday.
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Speaker 3:Who knows? Your question might just inspire an upcoming episode. Thanks again for tuning in to doable discipleship. I'm Jason Whelan and I hope you'll join us again next week.