Tyson (00:00.078)
cut this part out. I often scroll through the old recordings and I go, okay, I know with the podcasts I like, it's really interesting to see 10 years into the future, how it started out. And as much as there's a part of me that's like, okay, this is horrific quality, like delete it. I'm like, no, but I know in maybe 10 years, it could have a real romantic element to it. And so I leave it there.
Derek Sivers (00:22.409)
Yeah.
Tyson (00:25.226)
Yeah, it's a, it's very interesting. feel like it's the first thing I do whenever I go to a podcast that I'm a big fan of or a YouTube channel. I'll click on the order of videos to oldest and I'll go back and see what the first video looked like. And it's, I don't know. I just love watching. I just love watching that progress take place over time.
Derek Sivers (00:34.47)
Nice. Yeah.
Derek Sivers (00:43.156)
I think it's more inspiring that way. If we only compare ourselves against the polished and perfected output of the Masters, then it becomes anti -inspiring. Because we think, god, I suck. Just never mind, too much work. But if you compare yourself to the rough drafts, and even early Beatles demos, and I don't mean early like the Beatles when they were young, I mean like,
Even Abbey Road, when you hear these rough demos of songs that later turned into masterpieces, but they started out not so great. To me, that's super inspiring to think of, to feel that feeling like I could do that. So to see the earliest podcasts of somebody and go, yeah, I could do that. That's not so great. And it reminds you that it's just a constant iteration to improve it.
Tyson (01:36.59)
For sure. That was kind of my inspiration to get involved in standup comedy. Like exactly what you just said, just seeing a couple of comedians try new stuff and just absolutely bomb. And like, to steal your words, like I could do that was what came to mind. But it is funny when you do often see like in my instance, a comedian, like a really polished comedian getting up on stage and you go, man, like have they ever bombed? Like have they ever once had a bad night? And then you hear an interview with them about all of the thousands of bad nights they've had.
Derek Sivers (01:45.384)
Yeah.
Tyson (02:05.366)
and talking about how it's just such an essential part of the development as a comedian. I'm sure it's the same, as you say, with music. It is funny, but there's a sick part of me as well that's like, you know, let's just put that real good side forward. So everyone just assumes that Taisa's had it together forever.
Derek Sivers (02:22.378)
Of course, we all have that impulse. We all want to do that.
Tyson (02:26.476)
Yeah, it's interesting, man. I'm so interested. I said to you just before we hit record that there's so many different directions we could take the conversation. Cause I think from my perspective, looking at your work, there's, doesn't seem to matter which field we're looking at from parenting to music, to business, to slow thinking. I feel in some regard to all of those areas, there's probably a conversation I could have with you about each. But I guess the one thing that I'm constantly fascinated by, and this is a selfish question because
I've got a couple of plates spinning in my own life and you know, from parenting to comedy to business and the age old question, which I'm constantly curious to see how people manage it and do each of those areas well, comes from that perspective of, right, how do you actually know how much time to dedicate to spinning each plate? Cause you're a guy, I think when people speak about, they look at you and they're like, he's a, he's a high quality operator in the things that he commits to. But there are a few things and that,
I don't know, people often say, okay, you just gotta choose one thing and do it with all your heart for the rest of your life. And I'm like, well, I've got quite a number of things that seem to be going on, even if I was trying to eliminate.
Derek Sivers (03:37.322)
Sorry, thought there was another word after eliminate, but I guess you eliminated that word. How meta.
Tyson (03:40.832)
I'm fine.
Derek Sivers (03:48.436)
People can do things serially and present them in parallel. So if you go to my website and you see all the things I've done, it looks like I've done a lot of things at once. But actually, no, I'm a total single focused guy. I can't do more than one thing at a time. I have a
terrible handicap in that I just, I can only really think of one thing at a time. I'm the worst multitasker. I'm just terrible. at, well, let's just say I'm great at just focusing on one thing at a time for a really long time. Maybe it's just my value system because I have felt the pain.
of trying to do too many things at once and then nothing gets done. It's like computers do that. If you try to work them too hard to do too much, they freeze up and you have to just unplug it from the wall to get it to do anything. I can be like that where if I try to do too much, suddenly just nothing at all is getting done in any aspect. And I've learned this the hard way. So now my value system says,
I have to decide what is the one thing I'm doing. And I do that to completion and everything else that I want to do and everything else that comes up and all of my other ideas all just get pushed aside until this one thing is done. And I have to make myself do it this way because I've learned the hard way. It's the only way I'll get things done.
Tyson (05:39.35)
Man, I relate to that on such a close level. know there's a lot of conversations I've had with friends who do as well. The idea of freezing up because you've got unlimited options is, I mean, embarrassingly familiar to me. I mean, it seems to be a theme at the end of each of my afternoons where I'll go, I think I got what I needed to get done, but it's a horrible feeling, I know. But I often fluctuate between going, all right, well, I'm just gonna have that single -minded focus.
And then I go, okay, that single say that, for example, that might be comedy. And you go, okay, well, there's a number of elements under the umbrella of comedy, writing, performing, editing. And I feel as though that challenge of just trying to navigate how to prioritize each discipline that's required in the field that you've solely chosen to focus on is still a challenge. Like, how do you navigate that?
Derek Sivers (06:28.191)
Yeah.
So I oversimplified to start with. So when I say I pick just one thing, to be fair, I spend like 30 hours a week hanging out with my kid. So you could say that's almost a full -time job, right? And when I say hanging out, I mean like really like one -on -one, no devices, just giving him my full attention about 30 hours a week. It's a lot. But in my case, like I've only got one kid, I'm only gonna do this once.
I just made that decision long ago that if I have a kid someday, I'm giving it my full attention because it's a short chunk of my life, relatively speaking. So I do spend, I don't know, many, many hours a week writing or doing that one thing that I said I'm doing. But then as its antidote, as its balance, I have this 30 hours a week with my kid. So anybody listening to this,
You don't have to pick only one thing. Often one thing can kind of need its antidote, right? Like you can be a mathematician and a rock climber. And those two can go really well together because they're so opposite that each one can become like the antidote to the other. You're rock climbing and it's physical and it hurts, but it's not so intellectually growing. So, you know, you're a mathematician on the other side, but then it's just sitting in a chair so much. So, you know.
You can balance yourself like that. But then your question about within one meta pursuit, how do do the sub pursuits? Well, that is kind of up to your,
Derek Sivers (08:16.658)
It's like your pursuit, your training, it's like a musician knowing what they need to practice or a bodybuilder knowing what muscles they need to work on. That's just kind of your practice and your skill, think. I think that's just too unique for everybody, isn't it?
Tyson (08:32.238)
For sure. That is like a little bit of freedom that comes with that observation as well, isn't it? Cause you can spend so much time looking for the perfect approach and looking for that perfect scaffold of, all how do I stack all of these things in the perfect way? And the truth is it's like, what Derek Sivers does and what Tyson Popplestone does are going to be two very different approaches. Yeah, it makes sense.
Derek Sivers (08:49.802)
Yeah. Yeah. Even my good friends are surprised to see how I live. I'm just recently, I mean, as of like two days ago, realizing how weird I am. That most days I wake up at 4 .30 or 5 in the morning and I start writing and I write until 10 or 11 PM and I stop to eat for maybe 15 minutes.
Tyson (09:03.671)
you
Derek Sivers (09:19.57)
I stopped to pee quite a bit, to get a cup of tea quite a bit. And then I stopped for maybe an hour a day to exercise, whether that's a walk in the woods or lifting weights or something like that. And that's about it. That's my whole day. And I just realized, because a friend was here visiting, that on a typical week, the number of hours when I'm not working and not with my kid, like giving my work my full attention,
Tyson (09:21.73)
Wait, P -N -A -N.
Derek Sivers (09:49.212)
or get my kid my full attention. It's only really like an hour or two a week that I spend not doing one of those two things. And I notice this because somebody asked like why I don't have a kitchen table. For example, it's like, well, I just eat standing at the counter in five minutes. I don't sit down. What's there to sit for? Like I don't, and why don't you have a TV? Why would I have a TV?
to watch things, I don't watch things. I'm either writing or I'm playing with my kid. That's all I do. I don't have a balanced life. I mean, you know, I don't have a multi -colored life. I have a really single -focused life.
Tyson (10:29.55)
Did you say you work from 4 .30 to 11 pm?
Derek Sivers (10:33.034)
Yeah, 430 AM to 11 PM.
Tyson (10:35.404)
I could have sworn you'd misspoke. thought, okay, I'm going have to correct. And an hour or so break in between there or outside of playing with your kid. That is unbelievable.
Derek Sivers (10:37.446)
E?
Derek Sivers (10:43.348)
Yeah, a typical day, yeah. Then I just go to bed and I'll work until I catch myself falling asleep. I do shower, surprisingly. And then if I catch myself falling asleep, I'm like, all right, okay, look at the time, okay, it's late. Go take a quick shower, go to sleep for six hours, get up and do it again. This is my life.
Tyson (10:53.08)
You
Tyson (11:06.048)
How did you fall into, I doubt you fell into that program. It sounds like something that was cultivated over time. mean, no one can write for that long without a really focused attention and maybe like a real passionate heart burning a lot of the time behind what it is you're writing about. writing is a subject just in general that fascinates me, like writers. mean, as I've said a couple of times, stand -up comedy is my outlet where I do a lot of writing and the structure of that looks nothing like what
you just spoke about, but I do enjoy the process of it. It's got so many elements to it that I seem to enjoy. It's got like this, well, it's got the discipline aspect because a lot of the time, like we spoke about at the outset, you'll see a refined song and you go, they're just a good musician. Or you'll see like a finished draft of a book. You they're just a great author. But I know through listening to enough people that there's like a whole heap of chaos and just muddy water that you've got to navigate your way through in order to get to a lot of those gold nuggets.
Derek Sivers (12:01.501)
Yeah.
Tyson (12:05.312)
I often hear people say they'll sit down for a two or three hour chunk of time to write, but I think you've just broken the record on the longest stretch of writing time.
Derek Sivers (12:15.114)
Well, to be fair, sorry, hold on. Again, I oversimplified to start. Within that time of writing, it will be some of it writing my book, some of it doing a bit of programming, some of it answering some emails. It's basically just, I kind of mean like 430 to 11, like fingers on keys tapping. There can be different kinds of writing in there.
Tyson (12:37.558)
Yeah, and do you have a general scaffold that you use for your own writing or is it is it just kind of led by the most important project as you were saying before?
Derek Sivers (12:45.786)
Yeah, led by, yeah, led by the most important. So up until six, no, eight weeks ago, I was working on this book called Useful Not True that I gave you the little preview of. And that was just, I was working only on that for two years, no articles, no other kind of writing except my diary. And then eight weeks ago I finished. And so now I've been doing all the things that I pushed aside for two years, but.
Tyson (12:57.859)
Right.
Derek Sivers (13:15.028)
You know what, feel, okay, anybody listening to this and Tyson yourself, I feel like I'm always keeping the listener in mind. So whoever's listening to this, I know they tune in wanting to get like actionable tips and things that they can use for their own life. I feel like I accidentally took this conversation too deep down the Derek hole. Like this isn't supposed to be about me as much as it is about the listener. So I kind of feel bad about.
some of the stuff I've been saying for last 15 minutes. I know I nerd out in my own particular way, but even that's coming from my unique circumstances of having had this company where I was a big multitasker for many years, and then I sold the company and I moved to a remote island in the middle of the Pacific in order to get away from humanity. So I'm in kind of a weird situation that I think doesn't apply to most people. So I'd love it if you could help steer us back into the useful.
Tyson (14:12.148)
Sure, I'll do my best. Unfortunately, I find everything you're saying so useful. It's so helpful. But in saying that, I had a big asterisk next to the book for useful purposes. I mean, as you said, you did, you sent me a copy, which was incredible. I listened to the audio version. I spent a lot of the time driving back and forth. I'm about an hour and a half outside of Melbourne. And so an audio book version seems to be a real key for me because I'm driving in there regularly to
Derek Sivers (14:17.147)
well.
Tyson (14:42.755)
But the subject of psychology, the subject of framing, the subject of just the way you perceive the many situations that you navigate your way through in any given day, let alone any given month or year is fascinating. I've got a really good routine with exercise. I would say that the one thing if I had to give myself a pat on the back about, so hey Tys, you do this well, would be like the exercise structure that I have in place. I really love it, which is a win. It's some downtime, a comeback feeling good.
Derek Sivers (15:11.465)
Yeah.
Tyson (15:12.098)
I like the feeling of being fit and it's a discipline. know that on the days where I don't really feel like going to the gym or going for the run, I'll be grateful post workout, whatever I choose to do that I chose to do it. The other thing that I'm really interested in, but I find it harder to measure the successfulness of is developing as good a routine around psychology and the way that I view myself or the way that I view my challenges, the way that I view my life.
Derek Sivers (15:24.031)
Yeah.
Tyson (15:41.474)
because I find it a little harder to measure how effectively you're doing it. At end of the day, you can cross off an exercise and you can go, Tice, you did the exercise. Well done. Good. And I think as a result of saying all that, I'm constantly drawn into different forms of psychology or positive mindset, or I don't know what the right term for it is. And I think that's why I really enjoyed.
what it was you had to say in the most recent book because it really opens that can of worms. And I feel like it gives you a little bit of a ticket to play. Like maybe the secret to, or the answer to what it is I'm trying to ask is that I've been looking too long for like, what's the one size fits all approach to developing the best mindset. But like with such a variance in every individual, the people who are going to read that book, there's going to be one, no size fits all.
Derek Sivers (16:28.404)
Mmm.
Tyson (16:36.13)
I don't know if you just wanted to speak to that thought more than a question, because it sounds as though it's a subject you've really had to navigate your way through as well through so many of the different things that you commit to.
Derek Sivers (16:36.403)
Right.
Derek Sivers (16:51.014)
I... Well, okay, I've got to... First, a quick, minor question. What did you mean a routine around psychology? What would that even look like?
Tyson (16:58.254)
Well, on paper, I would say it's like, all right, Tais, if you can spend 20 minutes meditating, if you can do a little bit of journaling, if you can, I find thought monitoring sheets really helpful. Like during the difficult, like whenever I go through a little period of life where I'm like, I feel a little flat or I feel a little pissed off or whatever it might be. I'll often try and just identify whatever thought is just ringing around and around in my mind.
And I think sometimes I'll just accept that as true without even really thinking of it. And so I'll provide a counter thought to that and go, hey, but what if this thought's true? And I go, well, maybe that's true. You know what I mean? And it's the idea that you speak about in your book, like getting to decide what the actual event means. Like there's no subjective truth that this event means this. There's a number of things it could mean. And so thought monitoring sheets is another part of that.
Derek Sivers (17:32.403)
Right.
Derek Sivers (17:38.398)
Yeah.
Tyson (17:55.01)
But I mean, there's endless list of things that could be included on this hypothetical list of a training regime I might use.
Derek Sivers (17:55.86)
Okay.
Derek Sivers (18:00.306)
I see what you mean. Okay. So in that sense, I don't have a psychology routine, except for one, which is now every single day, I do go to my journal and just dump whatever's on my mind. And I used to only do it in the moments like you just described, where it's like, if my thoughts were muddled,
and I was feeling stuck in some way, then I would turn to my diary, only then, to sort out my tangled thoughts. So if I read old diaries from like 30 years ago, that's all that's in there. It would be like 14 days of nothing and then I'm upset, I'm frustrated, this frustrating thing happened, I don't even know why am I upset about this. And then 10 days of silence and then another kind of like, I'm mad about this. So unfortunately,
I would look back at my old diaries going, man, I don't really know anything about my life then except what was upsetting me or confusing me. And so I didn't realize that until the old age of 42, when went, man, I really wish that I had kept a daily diary back then. I did some really interesting stuff in my life, but I'm forgetting it already because all I've got are these faint distant memories of what I was doing 20 years ago.
It's like, man, that would have been so cool if I had a daily diary back then. I thought, well, even though my life isn't as interesting now, it's better now than never. You the second best time to plant a tree is now. So I started at the age of 42 writing every single day, no matter what. Even if it's sat at home and worked on my book all day. Came up with one interesting idea about what commitment means.
That might be a whole diarientry, you know, but at least I just There's a snapshot so future me in 30 years can look back to see What I was doing back then and I'm so glad I started doing that 12 years ago now So that's my only ritual but in doing that one ritual kind of maybe like your exercise ritual The other benefits can come You know, you may go for a run and yes, it's good for your legs and your lungs
Derek Sivers (20:20.02)
but also just good for your psyche to break up the work day or to remind yourself that this is a priority even when everything else seems urgent. You remind yourself that this is more important. So same with my diary. So many great things come from that. And if I am feeling muddled about anything, I work it through in my diary, which usually starts by questioning everything.
Tyson (20:47.746)
For sure, for sure. Just asking an alternative question to the one that's been on repeat through your mind. Yeah, I've found that really useful.
Derek Sivers (20:54.462)
Yeah, it's basically being skeptical and doubting everything, especially my own thoughts. But even doubting conventional wisdom. Like, I'll just pick on something, because you have little kids. People say kids need stability. But yet, I wanted to live all around the world. So I kind of challenged that. Like, who says kids need stability? Are you sure about that? Where's the proof?
Tyson (21:01.585)
You
Derek Sivers (21:22.152)
The kids need stability or what? Or they die? No. So it turns out that kids for mental health need to feel safe, but you can feel safe while traveling the world with your parents. In fact, it can be fun because they don't have any preset idea of the speed limit that they should be traveling at. For some people, if they move once a year, that would be like, whoa, whiplash, that's too much.
But for a kid, don't know that moving once a year is a lot. That might just be normal to them. So this is the case for me, actually. When I was like age zero to six, we moved every year at least. And I loved it. I just thought that was the normal pace. And I was so sad at the age of six when I found out that we're not going to keep doing that anymore. I was like, what do you mean stay in one place? So OK, they're even just, sorry, I shouldn't have.
gone too deep into that example. But in your field or your life or your social circle right now, there are just some truisms that you just take to be absolute fact. Because you've heard it enough, smart people say it, that's what it is, you know? I should get a good job or I need to start my own company or whatever it is. And you can look at that and put a big question mark on it going, well, wait a second, that's not true.
That's just one point of view.
Tyson (22:53.078)
Yeah, it's a good point. It's so funny with so much of the most helpful things is a lot of the time on paper, it's the most simple thing to do. But a lot of the time I'll overlook the simple because I'm like, surely something so simple can't be so significant. It's not going to make that big of a difference. But yet it's going for a 30 minute run on a daily basis that leaves you feeling relatively good or just don't have another biscuit.
Derek Sivers (23:08.22)
Right. Yeah.
Tyson (23:16.654)
It's the stuff we know, but it's the stuff we ignore for whatever reason. I'm sure there's a number of reasons that it could be that. But what was the motivation for you to actually put pen to paper on this particular book?
Derek Sivers (23:17.596)
Right. Yeah.
Derek Sivers (23:31.118)
that... Hold on, before we get into that, you said something earlier about... that with a psychology routine, there's no clear way to measure yourself. But I think there is. I think it's...
how often you find yourself changing your mind for the better.
That whether that's through reading a book and learning or hearing a new way to think of something in your life or just through your own questioning and processing, you know, doubting the importance of a birthday party. And then if you come to some new epiphany about something and you go like, that's a new way to see it. I hadn't considered that. that really helps. that's really interesting.
Whether that helps you just have peace of mind about something in the past or something that's out of your control, or if it gives you a new strategy that helps you be more effective in whatever it is you're pursuing. Those mind shifts, I think are measurable in a way. I mean, I'm not going to keep a little tick box on the wall, like a height growth chart, but I feel it.
in a real way when I have those little epiphanies that bring me peace or strategy.
Tyson (24:59.182)
It's a good point. think what I was meaning was like, it's easy sometimes with maybe use running for example, cause you might see your time just drop. You go, I'm running faster and it feels easy. There's improvement. But I think it's like a really, there's like an objective point of improvement. Not that what you're saying is not objective. I just mean it's a lot of the time and to go back to your point of just like never trusting.
Derek Sivers (25:12.83)
Right.
Derek Sivers (25:18.985)
Yeah.
Tyson (25:25.678)
Your own thoughts or just taking your own thoughts for granted. This may be a better way of putting it. lot of the time I'll notice when it comes to the psychological, a lot of that is dictated by like, I feel good right now, but is there like any solid change taking place? But I think what I'm trying to say is I notice it fluctuates quite a lot is there's so many ebbs and flows like the emotional.
rollercoaster that you may go, go through on a daily basis. Like you might feel happy and then you might feel sad and then you might feel frustrated. You might feel angry. You're like, wait, am I making any progress towards being a more enjoyable person to be around? And are these normal emotions or am I dwelling in each one too long? I can kind of get, you know, a little stuck just over analyzing certain emotions and. Find it really hard as a result to go, yes, but like compared to this time last year, I'm I'm healthier mentally or.
I'm more confident mentally or whatever you might like to say.
Derek Sivers (26:21.802)
Nice. Yeah.
All right, so let's see, you've got a lot of interesting things to talk about. Let's go through them a little faster. I feel like I've been going on too long on my answers here. you asked why I decided to put pen to paper for writing useful, not true. And it's actually because of the stuff we're talking about that I would have conversations like these with friends who would often say things like, I'm trying to figure out what's true here.
And I'd say, no, that's not about, don't look for what's true. That's not the point. Besides, what the hell is true anyway? If any two people anywhere on earth can disagree about this thing, well, then it's not true. It's just a point of view. It's only those things that nobody can disagree about. That even an ant and a Martian can look at this thing and both agree. Then that's a concrete reality. We could say that that's true. A square has four sides. That's just true.
Everything else, like it's important to be a good parent or you know, you should be loyal to your community. People act like these things are true when it's not. And any bit of travel around the world will show you that people on the other side of the earth are following an opposite framework of thinking about things. And they're also thriving. So any way of thinking about things is not necessarily true.
And this idea just kept coming up in friends, with conversations with friends and even in blog comments. And I just thought, is an interesting subject. And so I spent two years thinking about it and writing about it.
Tyson (28:09.76)
Yeah. So you mean the idea of people trying to navigate or figure out what actual objective truth is was coming up. it was, well, that was not rubbing you up the wrong way, but it was like, no, there's a whole other way to look at this situation. Like there's a bigger, broader thing taking place here than what you recognize.
Derek Sivers (28:25.865)
Yeah.
Derek Sivers (28:29.928)
Yeah, you said it a few minutes ago. You said that you caught yourself too often trying to think of, what's the best way? And I think that that kind of thinking really trips people up and paralyzes them. I'm trying to find the best way. What's the best way? How does this famous person do it? How does this rich person do it? What does this book say to do? Well, what is the best way? I'm trying to figure out the best. And you realize,
that that's a navel -gazing, stupid, pointless question. And instead, if you focus on your actions and what each belief or way does to your actual actions, you can be so much more effective. So here's an example. If you say, let's say, solving world hunger, now that's a good goal.
wet measure, because solving world hunger did not, if I set that as my goal, that does not make me jump into action. I did not jump out of my chair and go make things happen the minute I said I'm going to solve world hunger. But yet,
Let's say there's a different goal. Tides, can you pick a goal?
Tyson (29:52.382)
what's a different goal? I don't know. World peace is like another classic.
Derek Sivers (29:55.284)
Name a small one. No, see, that's another like, that's a pointless, you're not going to jump out of your chair and make that happen.
Tyson (30:02.604)
You want a legitimate goal. perfect. That's much easier. Yeah.
Derek Sivers (30:05.066)
Like a tiny, what'd you say, like improve your running score or your running time. So, so say a goal of like, what took me 25 minutes? I'm going to do it in 20 minutes by the end of this month. Now that's a concrete goal that makes you jump out of your chair and take action. So I think objectively that is a better goal because the whole point of goals.
is to guide your actions. And so if world peace or world hunger is not making you take good actions, then it's not a good goal. This is the measure by which we should judge if a goal is a good goal or not. And then you can extrapolate that to beliefs, saying, if I believe it's important to be loyal to my community, does that make me take better actions?
Or perhaps does letting go of that belief make me take better actions? Maybe. What if I adopt a belief that says the world is my community and Melbourne, Australia is just as much my community as Helsinki, Finland. And my God, guys, we're moving to Finland. Let's go. There's no reason that we need to be stuck here in Melbourne anymore. It's a big world out there. Let's give our kids a
bigger variety of living and we're gonna raise them in Sri Lanka for a year, and then go to Poland for a year. My kids are gonna have a bigger breadth of experience if I let go of this belief that I need to be loyal to my community, or it's important to be physically close to their grandparents, or whatever beliefs might be holding you back, you could just look at them and ask yourself, is this belief?
creating the actions that I want. And if it's not, I can just adopt a different belief. It's all about how it's making you act, not whether it's true or not, or if it's right.
Tyson (32:10.956)
Yeah. And it also kind of forces you to actually make a decision because I mean, like virtue signaling in any field is the easiest thing in the world to do. Like you can put a certain country's flag or a certain color flag or whatever it is over your profile picture. And I mean, this has been such a frustration of mine over the last couple of years when I caught it in myself and still keep catching it in myself, but like you'll, you'll see something you're doing outwardly and you're like, all right, are you doing this? Like outside of this.
What are you doing to actually help this cause? And the answer is usually for me, nothing. It's just like, people know, Hey, look, Tais is a look at, look at good Tais is doing. And I mean, I know when we're being honest, so many people fall into that same trap, but yeah, that idea of like, okay, well, I believe in this issue. Like what does that look like practically? Maybe give money towards it. Maybe go on volunteer time towards it. Like you think it sounds like, you kind of see this similar to me. Like a lot of people will just, they'll throw out the.
that hey, look, we're doing the best thing, but really doing nothing to change whatever it is that we claim to care about.
Derek Sivers (33:14.184)
Yeah.
Yeah, I've been frustrated by that too. It's a good thing to catch yourself and ask, would I still do this if nobody knew? Like if I was to do this anonymously and never tell anybody, not even my best friends, there would be no posts of it publicly. Now is it still worth doing? And for most people, you notice an embarrassing like, no, I guess I just thought that was a good idea because it makes me look good.
Tyson (33:42.156)
Hahaha
Derek Sivers (33:46.578)
Never mind.
Tyson (33:46.664)
was, it's always more fun catching it in someone else other than yourself. I love here in Australia through COVID, like we kept hearing about the importance of everything. And then each night on the news, there was another politician that yesterday was saying it, who wasn't applying their own standards to their own behavior. And you're like, interesting. Is this really as important as what you're saying it is? Yeah, it's very, it's very funny.
Derek Sivers (33:51.114)
Yeah.
Derek Sivers (34:06.686)
Yeah.
Tyson (34:09.356)
Is that part of the reason, I don't know why or how it is that you ended up in New Zealand, but I mean what you just spoke about with the idea of delving out into a new culture and a new way to live. I mean, New Zealand's a long way from California.
Derek Sivers (34:17.661)
Yeah
Derek Sivers (34:21.226)
I try to pick neutral examples, but I reveal my bias through my off the top of my head, you know, it's like the ink blot, you know, hey, what does this ink blot look like? It looks like I'm moving to Finland. It's like, Derek, I think you've revealed what's on your mind. So yeah, in my value system, I think it's healthy to.
Tyson (34:32.648)
you
Derek Sivers (34:49.276)
make the whole world your home and move to a place that's very different from where you grew up and continue to expand your understanding of the world through different points of view. That's just one of my favorite values. But that actually doesn't have much to do with why I'm in New Zealand. I was just location neutral when my kid was born. I was living in Singapore, thought I was going to stay there longer. And that's when my kid was born in Singapore. And
Then I just looked objectively and said, wait, hold on, what do I value in childhood? And to me, childhood is about your feet in the mud and your hands in a river and the long grass blowing in the wind and climbing trees. And to me, so much of childhood is about connecting with the real physical world, not just screens. And I thought, well, ideally my kid would grow up in a nature paradise. I was like, well, what's the best nature paradise?
Tyson (35:47.979)
show me.
Derek Sivers (35:48.554)
It's like, well, New Zealand. I everybody knows that. So I thought I was in Singapore in a little apartment on the 51st floor. And I thought, well, let's see what it takes to move to New Zealand. And I did the nine months of paperwork and became a legal resident for the sole purpose of raising my kid in nature.
Tyson (36:06.7)
Wild, wild. Which part of New Zealand are you in? Sorry, I just want to say, I know you've told me to steer clear of the personal questions and I keep coming back to it. No, what did you say? Not the personal questions. Sorry, I made it sound like you're a really harsh person. I didn't mean that at all. Just to clarify that I don't think you're an asshole. What I mean was you were worried that you might be boring the audience with personal anecdotes of your own life, but I find these personal anecdotes
Derek Sivers (36:11.05)
I'm in Wellington.
Derek Sivers (36:14.952)
No, I didn't say that. I never said that.
You
Derek Sivers (36:32.01)
Yeah.
Tyson (36:36.184)
so interesting and with that said, I'm being selfish and I'm nervous that you don't want to talk about it. So feel free.
Derek Sivers (36:39.014)
Okay. no, dude, I'm sorry. I'm happy to talk about anything. I'm trusting your guidance to keep this interesting to the listener. I never wanted to be one of those people that drones on and on about my own example, not realizing that everybody's gone to sleep. Because dude, honestly, I'm going to say this because I know they're not going to listen to this podcast. Just two nights ago,
Tyson (36:58.088)
Hahaha!
Derek Sivers (37:06.044)
somebody had me over to their house for dinner. And was like somebody had never met before. And they did that. They talked for like four solid hours. And at the end of the night, with, you know, just all the my eyelid muscles restraining to stay open, I left and I was driving home going, God, they didn't ask me a single question. It was four hours of just telling me about themselves without a single question. like, damn, that's... How do we...
Should I have brought that up at some point or should I bring this up to them now or do I just let it go and avoid them? don't know. Anyway, I don't want to be that guest.
Tyson (37:42.744)
You're definitely not. And I just feel so bad telling you that they do listen to this podcast.
Derek Sivers (37:46.762)
Anyway, god, would that be funny? Well, yeah, there it is. Publicly shamed. See if it helps. So, okay, no, I'm an open book. I'm happy for you to ask me anything. You asked about New Zealand. Yeah, I live in Wellington. That wasn't my first choice. I would rather be living in what we call the WAPWAPs here. What do you call it in Australia? The middle of nowhere. WAPWAPs.
Tyson (37:52.718)
Maybe that's what they needed to hear. Yeah, Paul, yeah, get your act together.
Tyson (38:12.706)
What do you call it? The WAPWAPs? I don't know what a WAPWAP is.
Derek Sivers (38:17.16)
I don't either, but that's what the Kiwis call it. Growing up around Chicago in the US, we called it in the boondocks or the sticks or sometimes they called it Bufu Egypt. It just means the middle of nowhere.
Tyson (38:28.178)
yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, maybe like I think Australia might have stolen out in the six, like out in the wilderness, out in the, are you sort of talking about in the middle of nowhere or like where countries, it looks a little less tainted than what a city might look like from a nature perspective.
Derek Sivers (38:37.428)
Okay.
Derek Sivers (38:46.9)
no, just, it's usually used as like a almost derogatory, like, yeah, that dude lives in the middle of nowhere. He's out in the wab wabs. It means just like, yeah, I don't even, it's not even on the map, don't it? Yeah. Yeah. okay. There you go. So yeah, I would have preferred to be living in the middle of nowhere, but my ex needed a job. And so she got a job in the New Zealand government, which is in Wellington. So here we are.
Tyson (38:54.913)
Sure.
Tyson (38:58.612)
middle of nowhere is exactly what we say over here. Sorry, I just been trying to catch up with what you meant. Yeah.
Tyson (39:15.086)
Yeah, man. Yeah, I've been to, I went to Wellington in 2018. It was my first taste. went for a rundown there around. They have like a really long bike path that leads you from what town all around the world. Is it a bay? You run around a bay and I think I ended up at near an airport or something. Yeah, that was my taste. I was only there for three or four days, but there's a little crossover in culture I felt between, I mean, you're not that far away, but between New Zealand and Melbourne here. Like I got there and was, yeah.
Derek Sivers (39:25.694)
Yes. it's great, isn't it? Yeah. Yep. I live right near the airport.
Derek Sivers (39:39.636)
Well, between Wellington and Melbourne, yeah. So a lot of people's... Yeah, Wellington's like a tenth of the size of Melbourne, but a similar heart.
Tyson (39:45.846)
For sure, yeah, like a lot of great coffee, which I feel can be deceptive because I'll get to a place and have a great coffee. go, it's so much like Melbourne here. So that was my little taste. How long you been in New Zealand for now?
Derek Sivers (39:53.278)
Yeah.
Derek Sivers (39:58.973)
11 years? 12 years, 12 years.
Tyson (40:02.07)
Yeah, yeah, man.
Derek Sivers (40:03.42)
It's home. That said, I am so ready to get out.
Tyson (40:08.472)
to where would you go?
Derek Sivers (40:09.874)
India, I want to go to Bangalore. I went to Bangalore last year and there's some places you just click with, especially the people. Nobody loves the infrastructure of Bangalore. Nobody thinks Bangalore is beautiful, but the people, my God, I just made so many friends. It just felt like my kind of people. And still my best friend lives in Bangalore. We talk on the phone every single day. And it's just the place that has the most people that I want to talk with.
and get to know better, so Bangler's my place.
Tyson (40:41.108)
Interesting. But on the spectrum, in the middle of nowhere is one side of the spectrum and Bangalore is up the other side of the spectrum. That's a interesting direction, James. In saying that, I phrase that because Bangalore, like from a population perspective, is what I'm getting at.
Derek Sivers (40:57.298)
okay, so I like different places for different purposes. See, this is back to saying that there's no right answer. There's no where's the right place to live. Well, for what purpose? When I'm in New Zealand on this island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, I do not want to be in a city next to the KFC and the Toyota car dealer. I came all this way to be in the middle of nowhere. That's why I'm here. And if I go to India,
Well, then I don't want to go to the mountaintop in the middle of nowhere, because I could do that here in New Zealand. If I'm in India, I want to be in the middle of everything. Same thing. It's like, if you're going to go to, I don't know, you go to Europe, you go do something that's very European. And if you go to Australia, go to do something that's very Australian. It's like, different places for different purposes. So it's not looking for the right answer. It's looking to... You have a goal.
for the purpose of creating an action in yourself. And you go to a place for the purpose of being in a different environment that that place gives you, which brings up different thoughts and different actions.
Tyson (42:10.25)
Yeah, and what is it about Bangalore that you're attracted to in terms of the people? Like you said, they're the people you'd like to learn most about. Is that the main drawing factor to Bangalore?
Derek Sivers (42:19.944)
Yeah, I just, can relate to them.
15 years ago, I tried to move to San Francisco. In theory, San Francisco is so my kind of place. It's smart, ambitious, creative, interesting people. It's cool to be smart. It's cool to make things start things. A lot of just bold creativity there. But when I went there, everybody was too much like me. I felt like I was around a bunch of derricks. I didn't like it.
It was a bunch of Americans, a bunch of white guys like me that, I know not everybody, but just it felt like too much. I was in, you know, like the magnets, you know, if it's the positively charged ones, it pushes against the other positively charged ones. I like opposites. I like being in places where I'm not like everybody else. And then I went to Bangalore with very low expectations.
But as soon as I got there, just found that it was the same things that I had been pursuing in San Francisco. A bunch of people that are super smart, creative, bold, ambitious, interesting. It's cool to be smart. cool to... It's just got this culture where it rewards looking at things differently, trying something new. But yet, it's not just a bunch of derricks. It's a bunch of people that are not like me, yet we share this same...
love of thinking and making and looking at things from a different point of view. And I just went, I love this. I love these people. it's also just maybe a stage in my life where I moved here to New Zealand to be antisocial, to give my kid all my attention. And now that he's getting older, he's 12 now, but soon he won't really want me around anymore. I think Bangalore is calling me next.
Tyson (44:13.07)
That's so exciting. You'd take your 12 year old with you or is that what you're saying? Like when he's old enough to fend for himself, you'd think about heading over there. Yeah.
Derek Sivers (44:22.59)
Either one. I think he might love it too. He hasn't been yet. We both are citizens of India. His mother was born in India. So it's kind of cool that through her, because she was born there, all three of us have the passport. So we can live in India for the rest of our lives. They don't have to apply for a visa. So that's kind of cool. It's a place that I'm legally allowed to live.
Tyson (44:26.423)
Yeah.
Tyson (44:47.288)
That's
That's very cool. It's funny. I, how old are you? 54 based on the maths I've just done. yeah, okay. So 12 year old. it's interesting when you watch people I'm 37, but even mates around me at the moment. And I noticed this from a young age, you'll often see people grow older and just grow more staunch with whatever it is that they believe, whether wrongly or rightly. They, they will get smaller and smaller and more and more boring and like more and more depressing from my perspective. It sounds like what your
Derek Sivers (44:53.694)
Yeah.
Derek Sivers (45:07.945)
Yes.
Derek Sivers (45:14.719)
Yeah.
Tyson (45:18.058)
Venturing down is the direction that I'm really interested in going, which is, Hey, as you get older, make your world way bigger, make your world way broader. But that's definitely, I'm sure part of that is like personality, but it sounds like part of that is pursuit. Like, is that something that you've consciously focused on or is that something that you think is a little more innate? Like, will you like that growing up?
Derek Sivers (45:25.491)
Right.
Derek Sivers (45:36.49)
No, no, no. Let's talk about this. This is a very deliberate pursuit to counteract our nature and tendencies. So I didn't start lifting weights until I was 42. Because up until then, I thought the only reason people lift weights is for the vanity, for the wannabe Schwarzeneggers. And I have no interest in...
having big muscles for vanity. And it wasn't until the age of 42 when I was learning that lifting weights is really good for the aging skeleton. That if you don't lift weights, I didn't realize this, that your bones actually can be weak or strong. I thought that was just a figure of speech, but no, it's literal. And so once it was explained to me that, it's very important for the aging person to lift heavy weights and ease your way into it so that you stay strong.
It's counteracting nature. So that's why I started lifting weights at 42. A better, more recent popular example is Peter Attia wrote this book called Outlive, where he says, if you want to be able to walk upstairs at the age of 80, you need to be able to run upstairs at the age of 50. So start training like an athlete now at age 30, 40, 50, so that you can just be in at least decent health at the age of 70 and 80.
It's this idea of very deliberately going against your nature. So same thing socially. There's a book called Brain Rules for Aging by John Medina that said, so he's a neuroscientist that studies healthy brain development. And he wrote a great book about babies, Brain Rules for Baby, a great book in general called Brain Rules, and then Brain Rules for Aging or Healthy Aging. And.
That book really impacted me because I'm reading this, I actually read it at the age of 40 something, saying, okay, this is what I need to start doing now to stave off dementia in 40 years. I need to start doing these things now. So I'll make massive life decisions like moving to Bangalore because of this book's advice that we tend to, like you just said, as we age, get more narrow, more stayed in our ways.
Derek Sivers (48:01.64)
And what he says is the best way to keep a healthy brain is to learn new skills in your old age. Learn a new language, new spoken language. The more the better, actually. If you can learn a second language and even a third language, it really works out your brain. Physical motion, especially. Dancing. He said, go take dance classes in a kind of dance that you've never done before, if you've danced before, or just start dancing if you've never done it before.
surprise yourself. Meet with people ideally from very different cultures and different generations. So they said out of all the elderly minds we've studied, the healthiest ones are the ones that have the most conversations with young people, like ideally teenagers. So for the elderly to have conversations with teenagers is very good for their brain because it helps them see how the world has changed so much. So all of these things, to me when I read this,
Let's say when I read that it's good for your skeleton to start lifting weights, I think, okay, well then that's what I'm going to do. Follow the book, do what it says, do what the experts advise. I will change my life to start doing this. Same with the brain. It's healthy for your brain to keep surprising yourself. Therefore, I'm going to move somewhere far away. And in fact, just this year, I've just started learning Chinese. So learning Chinese and planning to move to India.
Those are my two most recent changes.
Tyson (49:34.287)
I was about to, you've already answered my follow -up question. I was so curious to know what it was you were working on at the moment. That's, that's so good. That's when you got to be careful of in the early stages of developing it. You can't start speaking Mandarin, like at a real basic level. Cause in Melbourne, you just get called a racist until you're an actual pro. That's one accent you're not allowed to practice over here. It's very funny to work.
Derek Sivers (49:39.741)
yeah.
Derek Sivers (49:56.254)
Well, you don't practice the accent, you practice the words. Anyway, I know what you
Tyson (50:02.894)
We often laugh because it's okay to speak French, it's okay to speak Italian, but you got to be real careful with ones like that. So it's very fun, man. That's awesome. I liked what you said about the meeting people from, I think it was ages, not cultures, but elderly people speaking to, yes, to the younger generations. But what I noticed on your website, I was having a flick through the other day, was just the massive groups of people that you meet up with.
Derek Sivers (50:19.764)
Mm -hmm. Generations.
Tyson (50:31.064)
from around the world when you travel to wherever it is that you are, you'll catch up with people that you've connected with. Is that a part of that or is that just like, hey, I'd love to meet you, I'd love to see the face behind the email? Like why is it that you're so deliberate about catching up with people who have connected with you online?
Derek Sivers (50:48.372)
I think it's to counteract my current situation of being socially isolated in New Zealand. So in a typical year here in New Zealand, and I'm talking about only when I'm in New Zealand, I spend time with other people besides my kid for maybe I'd say five hours per year.
So make sure you let that sink in for a second. I really don't see hardly any humans besides my kid when I'm in New Zealand. It's only when I travel to a new place that then I deliberately counterbalance. I do the opposite of my New Zealand life. And I make a point of like, all right, I've never been to Buenos Aires before. I'm going to Buenos Aires.
and I'm gonna meet 50 people in six days. I've only, ideally I would stay for six months, but my kid's in school, he misses me, I miss him. So I'm only here for six days. I've got a cram it in. So in six days I'll sit down and I'll meet with like 50 people in, well, let's see, 30 people for like one or two hours each in five days, just to kind of binge. almost like as if you were going to go off to music.
Festival, you know you go off to I don't know what music festivals are around anymore. Yeah I was about to say Lollapalooza, but I was like, that a thing anymore? There's the the one outside of Palm Springs. What's that called? Anyway, You know when somebody goes to a music festival the whole idea is like, we're here for three days I'm gonna see 50 bands in three days. my god. So it's it's like that with conversation for me
Tyson (52:19.771)
You're asking the wrong person. I'm going to embarrass myself and reveal how long it's
Tyson (52:40.568)
That's really cool. Is there a particular, I know you said Bangalore was one before, but is there a particular group of people outside of there that you've been really interested in? Like is there anything that stands out to you as like a, man, like this is a pretty amazing place based on those people that you've crammed into the couple of days that you've spent time with?
Derek Sivers (53:00.234)
I mean, Bangalore, Chennai, I haven't done this anywhere else in India yet, except Bangalore and Chennai. I haven't done it in Dubai yet. I've only met with three people in Dubai, but I really loved them all. Really loved them all. So I'd really like to go back to Dubai and do a real binge of getting to know a lot of people there. I'm really curious about Saudi Arabia because
Two different people in Dubai told me that the friendliest people you'll meet in the Arab community are in Saudi Arabia. went, okay, so even though I don't know that many people in Saudi Arabia now, I'd like to. Nairobi, Kenya, again, I haven't been yet, but the people from Nairobi that I've met in other parts of the world always seem to be really sweet and interesting people, but I just really liked them. So I'm like, I wanna go to Nairobi. Sounds like my kind of people there. So these are the top of my list.
Tyson (53:57.9)
That'd be cool. I've never been to Nairobi either, but as I've mentioned a couple of times, like running's my background and naturally if you're Kenyan or Ethiopian, I'm interested based on just the success of your runnings, of the runners. And yeah, Nairobi is a place that I'd be fascinated to visit as well. I had a friend that went there last year, a little outside of Nairobi, but he did a running camp there and absolutely raved about it. So like to add fuel to the fire of wanting to visit it, it sounds like a fairly, like a pretty incredible place. Are you,
Derek Sivers (54:07.54)
Nice.
Yeah.
Tyson (54:27.662)
I'm sort of circling back to something I asked you at the outset here, but I forgot to ask. I mentioned, I think we were recording, I mentioned when we started that it's fascinating because from my perspective, a lot of the time I'll look at what you do and I go, look, Derek Sivers does 14 things.