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Hosted by members of the University of Minnesota Extension Beef and Dairy Teams, The Moos Room discusses relevant topics to help beef and dairy producers be more successful. The information is evidence-based and presented as an informal conversation between the hosts and guests.
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Emily Krekelberg: Welcome, everybody, to The Moos Room. We have the gruesome twosome here today, myself and Joe. [barks] [laughs] Just Joe and I today, but it's an exciting episode, at least for me. If you've been around The Moos Room for a while, you know that every May we celebrate Mental Health Awareness Month both on a global scale, but here at The Moos Room, we celebrate it as well. The next several episodes that are going to come out from us are going to be on various topics around mental health.
I think you all know this is a really important topic to me personally, and I think over the years, I've gotten Joe and Bradley on the train with it as well. Every year we know that May is going to be Mental Health Awareness Month on the podcast, so stay tuned for some future episodes. Got some exciting topics and potential cool guests lined up, all sorts of things to look forward to. We thought we would kick things off with this series for 2023 with just me and Joe having a little bit of a conversation about something that is really common, something that I would say I'm hearing a lot about, especially in the last couple of years, and that is burnout.
I feel like anywhere I go, looking at the media, talking to friends, burnout is on people's mind. Feeling burnt out, not sure if they're getting burnt out. There's a lot of things that we associate with this buzzword of burnout. It's our hope today to have a little conversation about it. I think Joe has prepared some questions to ask me, so I get to sit as the expert today. I think this will be a real good way to kick off the month and to talk a little bit about something that we all experience and we maybe don't always know what to do when we're experiencing it.
Joe Armstrong: Before we get too far, so we're all on the same page, I guess we should know what is it. I think I know what I think it is, but sometimes when I'm learning from Emily on these topics, I actually find out that I don't know the correct definition of things. Let's start there, what is burnout?
Emily: I would say burnout is totally one of those words, it's like sustainability, it's like resilience. I think everybody has their own general definition of it. Everyone's a little different, but they all get at the same thing. When I talk about burnout, we really emphasize that burnout is something that happens to a person when they've been highly engaged in what they're doing for a really long time, but they don't have the skills or the support to maintain their well-being.
Really looking at that from a farm perspective, basically, you're really engaged in your work, you love what you do on the farm, but maybe you haven't taken all the steps you could to make sure you're maintaining your well-being, and perhaps just the structure of your farm and the way that you manage it may also be leading to not being able to fully maintain your health while also trying to maintain those demands. Burnout is really something that happens over time due to some long-term issues.
Joe: One of the things you mentioned when you were introducing this whole topic was that it's common. I think one of the themes that we've learned on this show from you is that one of the dangers when we talk about well-being and keeping your mental health in a good place, is thinking you are alone in something that's happening to you. How common is burnout? Because I feel like that's something that we can really relate to when we hear, "Okay, I'm not alone in this feeling or this thing that's happening to me."
Emily: Yes. Definitely, I think with a lot of different mental health issues, our initial reaction is to isolate ourselves. To do that, we basically tell ourselves like, "You are the only person experiencing this," or "No one cares," or "No one else would understand." That's what we tell ourselves. We may even tell ourselves, "I'm the only person experiencing burnout." If that is you, if I am speaking directly to you right now, I want you to know that is not the case. You are not alone, you are not the only person.
I worked in this topic area for a while now, and the most interesting piece of data I found is from Gallup. They did a survey, one of their general surveys, and I believe this was just full-time working adults across industries. In December of 2019, 42% of those working adults reported feeling burnt out in the last 12 months. 42%, that's a lot. In June 2021, that number jumped all the way to 74%. Nearly three-quarters of working adults reported feeling burnt out in the last 12 months.
I hate to say that it's common because that makes it sound like it's okay, it's just part of life, but it is becoming a larger issue, and more and more people are feeling this way. I think that that allows us to open up times like this to really have conversations about it because we know it's not just us feeling this on our own. It's us, maybe our spouses, maybe our friends, our coworkers, and colleagues. I guarantee there's somebody in your life, and perhaps it's you, that is feeling burnout or has felt burnout in the recent past.
Joe: One of the things you said in there was that you kind of implied that burnout can happen during certain periods and then maybe you don't feel burnt out for a while. Where is the line? I have a bad day at work or a bad week where it's way too many hours and just have too many things to do. Where's the line? Can burnout come and go? Is it just a general feeling overall where you're like, "Okay, more than half the days I feel burnt out, so this is burnout"? Is there a way to know that piece of it?
Emily: Yes. I'm going to twist your question a little bit, Joe, just so that it works for me a little better.
Joe: That's a fancy way of saying your question's awful and I hate it.
Emily: [chuckles] Fancy way of saying you gave me nothing with that question. No, I'm kidding. No, it was a good question, but I want to reframe a little bit here. I think we need to start with talking about burnout versus stress because in your question, Joe, you mentioned how do I know am I just having a bad day, has there just a lot on my plate right now, or am I burnt out? Some people believe stress and burnout are the same issue, we're just using two different words to describe the same thing. They are different.
I'm going to run through three main characteristics of each to compare and contrast. Stress is really something that happens at the individual level. It is caused by things happening in your life personally, individually what's happening with you. On the flip side, burnout really develops from an organizational level. Burnout is not just an individual not doing their job anymore or not caring, that's not what that is. It may look like that, but it doesn't stem from the person, it really stems from the organization or the system that they are in.
Another one with stress, we know it can sometimes be helpful. Stress can be a little bit motivating. If you're somebody like me, I'm not a procrastinator, but I am deadline driven. What I've decided that actually truly means when I say that is that I need the stress of the deadline for me to get that work done. I'm sorry, I'm not going to have things done two weeks early just because. [laughs] Whereas on the other side, burnout, never helpful. Stress can be unhelpful as well, but burnout is going to be unhelpful always.
Now, this is going to be the key point here. I would say when I talk about burnout with people and make this comparison, that's when I see a lot of things click for people. That is when we're stressed, normally-- not normally, but I'd say it's not uncommon for us when we are under stress to experience heightened emotions. Dr. Joe knows this. I'm a crier, and that's not a good thing or a bad thing, but that's typically how I react to different emotional highs and lows. If I'm upset, if I'm stressed, if I'm happy, if I'm sad, all the same reaction. My emotions are heightened, that's usually why I'm crying. I'm feeling these emotions on a much larger scale just because of the stress, the way I'm reacting to it.
On the flip side, what burnout does to us is it blunts our emotions, or some people describe it as feeling numb. You basically have no emotion. I think for a lot of people, that's how they can really figure out what they're experiencing. If you feel like emotions are off the charts, it's probably stress. If you feel like you feel nothing, you're numb all day, it could be burnout. That last one, especially for me, is really how I can determine for myself if it is burnout or if it's just stress of how am I really feeling. How am I processing things emotionally and expressing them? If I find it's like I've just gone blank and numb, probably burned out.
If it's just I'm feeling a little manic and stressed, and maybe emotions are swinging a lot, perhaps it's stress. It's like anything in mental health. Everybody's individual experience is going to be different. I can't give you an answer and say, "Oh, if you have this, and it's this amount of time, that's what it is." I don't know that. Yes, I think as we think about stress and burnout as these two separate things and what really causes them and how they make us feel, that's how we can determine what we're experiencing.
Joe: That's really helpful. I think you're experiencing some of my doctorness, wanting to be able to put it in a bucket, make a specific diagnosis, and that's not always possible with your work. It's a little more gray sometimes. Along those same lines, we talked about knowing the difference between stress and burnout, and emotions playing a big piece of it. What I see with burnout that I see as a big concern as you describe it and talk about it, is that it's happening over time. I feel like it could sneak up on you, and you don't even recognize it's happening. How would I recognize that I'm on that path without getting to the end stage of being completely numb?
Emily: There are what we call three major dimensions of burnout. I guess if you want to put it another way and think of these as symptoms, we could say that too. These three dimensions of burnout, these are the three things we see in people that are burned out and things that, yes, if we start to feel this way, we may be able to stop and go, "Wait a second. I'm not usually having these three things this much." Those three dimensions are number one, exhaustion. I would say that's probably the most common one that people associate with burnout.
Most people say, "I'm burnt out. I'm exhausted." Those two phrases really go hand in hand. Exhaustion, just feeling a lot of fatigue, feeling when you are up and doing things, you're just really dragging, forcing yourself, feeling like you don't have energy. Most of us are familiar with exhaustion. That's one of the dimensions of burnout. Another one is cynicism. Now, a lot of people like to laugh and chuckle at the single, "Well, what if I'm just a cynic anyways?" Don't get me wrong. I think we all have a little bit of pessimism in us, and that's not a bad thing.
When we talk about things like burnout, I want you to really think of severe cynicism, complete pessimism. Well, why does it matter if we get the crops planted on time? It's not like we're going to make any money anyways. Just that kind of thinking constantly. Just not being able to see the good, really feeling like everything is bad and against you. Cynicism is another one of the dimensions. Lastly, and this one makes me think of Joe because it sounds like something for a vaccination, and that is inefficacy. I'm not big up on the vet speak. I think of it as just being inefficient. You are not able to get what you used to get done, done anymore.
There's starting to be this gap building in what you used to get done and what you're getting done now. Again, those three dimensions of burnout are exhaustion, cynicism, and inefficacy. People have asked me, "Well, does that mean I feel all three of those things at a really high level, all equally?" Again, this is a thing where everybody, it's going to be a little bit different.
Like I said, for me, especially when I'm burnt out, I know all three of those dimensions are present. Exhaustion's probably the number one, but for some people, it's inefficacy, that's their number one, but they're feeling cynicism and exhaustion too. Just think about those three areas and how you've been feeling in regards to those and have you been experiencing those things.
Joe: Before we move on to a couple of key questions involving a theme on the show, prevention and then treatment and that kind of thing, one of the things that I hear often when this subject comes up and I hear people asking themselves when they think they might be burnt out is, "Does it mean I don't care?" Because that's a feeling I feel like could sneak up on you as well, where you're like, "Man, I can't get things done and I'm exhausted, I'm negative." Does that mean I don't care about this work? Maybe we can start there, and then we'll move on.
Emily: That's such a great question. I will say that is a question that I have asked myself before. I will admit I have felt burnt out and been extremely burnt out in the past, and I thought that too. I'm like, "Does this mean I don't care about my job anymore?" You know me. My job is my entire personality. I love what I do. To give a short answer to your question, Joe, no. Burnout does not mean that you don't care about your job anymore. I talked about already before, it happens when people have been highly engaged for a long time, but they don't have those other supports that they need.
Personal skills and then other outside support as well, and really understanding that burnout most often is caused by chronic workplace stress. Now, it's a little different to talk about it when we're talking with farmers because, of course, home and work are usually very muddled or very much the same thing. When we look at burnout, it's really focused on that chronic stress, in I would say, a working environment. If that is a regular office, if that is your farm, if you are a stay-at-home parent, your home is still a workplace of sorts. It's basically that this location-based stress has not been successfully managed. Then that's where we see those three dimensions start to come in again.
Again, the ones we talked about of exhaustion, cynicism, and efficacy. Again, like I said, when we were comparing stress and burnout, it's important to understand that burnout really comes from the conditions around you. It does not come from you as an individual. That can be a little hard to wrap your head around, and I know it is for me sometimes too. Just really remembering that piece that it's coming more from the environment around you than you yourself. It does not mean you do not care anymore. It means probably that you care more than you ever have, but there's no longer space and support for you to express all of that care in a way that's sustainable.
Joe: That makes sense. It's good to know because I feel like when I felt that way in the past, that is definitely something I asked myself as well, does this mean I don't care, or is that a symptom of burnout? Good to know. As with all things on this show, we talk prevention first and then work our way to if we're already in burnout, what do we do? How do I keep this from happening? We talked about how to recognize it on the way to being in full burnout. How do I then prevent myself from getting to burnout if I recognize that maybe I'm on that path?
Emily: I would say for this question, I look to the most common drivers of burnout. These are research-based, these are from Maslach, and the number one burnout driver that's listed there is an unsustainable workload. If we're starting at the drivers with prevention, I think that's a great place to start. We have had many, many, many conversations on this podcast about sometimes the unavoidable commitments in farming. Sometimes you're going to have a 20-hour day, when it's go-time for planting or harvesting, I understand that. I always want to be very clear. Not everybody can have a perfect eight-hour workday and go home and have so many hours of leisure time, I get that.
I want to say that first, [chuckles] but I do want to again say, unsustainable workload is the number one driver of burnout. If we're talking prevention, I think that's a great place to start first is looking there. Is my workload sustainable? Again, there's some seasonality, so I'm sure there are times of year where you're probably a little too busy. Think of the slower times or more a general typical day, which I hate to say because there's no typical day in agriculture. I think you get what I'm saying. Considering your workload, and is what I'm doing a good match for my skills? That's another driver of burnout when values and skills are mismatched for the job or for whatever somebody is doing.
If you're on the farm and you're the cow guy, but maybe you hate cows. You'd rather be doing crop stuff. Well, then can we find a way to get you doing those crops things? It's a better match with your interests, with your values, with your skills. I would say some other drivers we see in burnout is this perceived lack of control. That's also where the workload piece comes in of, I have no control over all this stuff coming at me at once, so how can I get a little more organized and maybe are there some commitments I can step away from for a while? Just to give myself that manageable workload and that manageable time load, in general, that's going to work a little better for me.
Another major driver of burnout that I want to mention is lack of a supportive community. We already talked about isolation a little bit earlier in this episode, and we've talked about it in previous mental health episodes because we know people under stress or dealing with other mental health problems will isolate. We also know that farming, especially, is an industry where most individuals are naturally isolated. Even if you work with your family someone is feeding cows, someone is in the parlor, somebody is planting. There's so many different things happening. I think also in prevention, making sure that you have the support you need around you to keep yourself going.
Finding that supportive community. That can be from within your family, that can be friends, that can be a hobby group that you're a part of. There are a lot of different places to find that community. We know, and study after study tells us how good being a part of some sort of community is for your mental health. People who report higher social connections report lower symptoms of depression. There is that connection between how much support and that sense of community you have around you. I got a little wandery on that question. Just to quickly recap. When we're thinking prevention, let's look at the drivers of burnout.
If we want to prevent burnout, making sure our workload is sustainable and that we're not taking on so much that we've lost control. Looking for that supportive community, having support around us, and also knowing if what we're doing is a match for our values and our skills, and finding those tasks or those things to do that make us feel valued and like we are providing value to the world. Not like, "Oh, I'm just sitting here banging my head against the wall because I don't like what I'm doing." Those are some of the things that we look at for prevention is really, how do we prevent these drivers from taking over?
Joe: Those make sense. I think the one that I see as one of the biggest challenges for farmers is this perceived control. Prevention would be, we want to frame that in a preventative way. We want to have a perceived control. I think it's good to put that modifier on it. Because you're not going to have control of everything. You can't. Perceived control in a situation at least seems like a healthier way to look at it. When you look at the whole thing and you say, "Well, I can't control everything, but here's what I can." We all know between the weather and everything else that can happen on a farm, that one seems problematic to me to be able to figure out how to frame your mind right so that it feels like you have some control somewhere.
Emily: I'm going to harken back to a past episode where we talked about the idea or the concept of adjusting your mastery. Reminding yourself, I don't have control over everything, but I do have control over these things. This fits in really nicely with that. A friendly reminder that adjusting your mastery is a resilience strategy and resilience is encouraged also to help prevent burnout. I think it's great that you jumped on that one, Joe, because that's what it's all about is your perceived control that you have over a situation, but also this idea that you're able to temper that perceived control with reality as well. Wanted to make that quick tie back there too.
Joe: Perfect. We've talked about prevention and figuring out how to make that work. There's two questions, and maybe we should keep them separate. I think it's good to think about both. I'm already burnt out. Now what? That's one question. Then the second question which we can get to later is, I see these things in someone else. How do I help them? I think people are going to be thinking about-- some people immediately internalize. They're like, "Yes, that's me. I'm on my way to that, so I'm going to work on me." Then some people are immediately going to be thinking of, "I see that in someone else and I need to help them." Let's start with ourself. What do I do if I think I'm burnt out?
Emily: I will say, starting with yourself is absolutely where you should start with a lot of things in our mental health. We have to start with ourselves. There's a lot of different things that we can do. One of them, and I believe we talked about it on the Adjusting Mastery episode, and that is using the five whys method to explore why you're feeling this way. Quick recap, if you don't remember, you basically start with your main statement or issue and ask yourself why, and then answer that question. Then ask yourself why again, and then answer that question and keep going until you've asked yourself why five times.
The idea there is that it can help you think a little bit more critically about what really the underlying cause is. I'm going to try to give a quick example of how to use the five whys. I feel like last time I did it, it got a little rocky, so hopefully this one goes a little bit smoother. The example I'm going to use today is let's say, at work, there's a project that I am behind on. I am behind on a project, why? I am behind on the project because I am working with team members who don't all have those things turned in. Why don't all the team members have their stuff turned in? Well, because me as a leader forgot to let them know what their deadline was to get their stuff put in.
Why did I forget to do that deadline? Well, because I was focused on these other two projects that I had to do. Why was I focused on those two projects instead of this one? I was focused on them because this project is getting so stressful that I just keep ignoring it. Bingo. That was five whys, and I answered, I figured it out. Sometimes is not that easy, but that's just a quick example of how you can use something like that. Again, I think of it as a critical thinking technique, it helps me dive a little bit deeper into an issue instead of just thinking surface level, this is what this means. Really thinking about what is going on, because that's also going to help you find a solution in the future as well.
That's one, another one, and I say it all the time, allow yourself breaks. Allow yourself time to take care of yourself. That's going to look really different for everybody. What I say, especially to farmers is, is there five minutes that you can find in your day where you just disappear? Five minutes, you can read the paper, you can go for a little walk. Just something that's taking you out of work and you're not going to be putting out fires or responding to issues. Just five minutes for you. A big one also, I would say in this is really looking at your goals.
Assessing those goals. Is everything you're doing really in line with your values and with what you want to be doing? Because sometimes we're burnt out because we're just not excited about what we're doing or what we're doing is not the right match for us. Assessing that. A big one, always, talk with someone you trust. It starts with you, but a lot of us can find it helpful to explore what we've been thinking about with another person. Talking with someone you trust, going back to the give yourself permission to take breaks, but also get back to the basics.
I'm going to say it, always, always, always, you need to sleep, you need to eat, you need to be physically active. I'm sorry I don't make the rules, but those are things you need to do. Especially if you're feeling burnt out, I think the old Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The very bottom of that pyramid is the most basic things we need. Food, shelter, sleep, and start there. Whenever I'm feeling really stressed or even burnt out, that's what I've worked with, with my therapist is like, "Okay, how far down are we going on the hierarchy?" Where are we at? If I'm at bottom level, that's fine. I have met my goal, if I have eaten that day and slept. Focusing on those things.
Finally-- I don't know if I can call this one the most important, but it's very important. It's being kind to yourself. People may think it sounds a little cheesy or like I am kind to myself, it's fine, but you really need to be mindful of yourself talk. Most of us have our internal monologue that runs throughout the day and it's mostly us talking to ourself. Is what you say to yourself nice? To put it another way, and this is something that a colleague and extension said to me actually, and it has just stuck with me, she said, "Well, Emily, I think to myself this, if I would not say this to my best friend, why would I say it to myself?"
For example, I am lazy, I am fat, I am worthless. Nobody likes me. Why would you say that to yourself? Would you say that to your best friend? I mean, we might say it to Bradley, but I think that's different. [laughs]
Joe: Very different.
Emily: What I'm really getting at here is being mindful of how we talk to ourself and again thinking of yourself as your best friend. If you wouldn't say that to somebody else, why would you say it to yourself? With that too, managing our ANTs. Yes, I said ANTs, A-N-Ts. If you are unfamiliar, ANTs stands for automatic negative thoughts, which we know that's how the human brain is designed. We go negative, we assume the worst-case scenario. I think too if we've been engaging in negative self-talk for a long time, those ANTs are going to creep in and they're going to be just like the bugs.
They will be everywhere before you know it, and very hard to manage. Once you get them under control, when one comes up, it's a lot easier to get it to go away. Managing those automatic negative thoughts, and that can be as simple as something happens and you're going to have your initial negative reaction and you just need to stop yourself and go, "You know what? I'm not going to let myself have this thought right now. It's not helpful." Lots of different things you can do when you're feeling burned out. I mean, I think the chief take-home message here is do something. Do something to take care of yourself.
That may be reflecting on what has happened. That may be taking a break. That may be reassessing your goals. That may be talking with someone you trust. That may be getting back to the basics. That may be being kind with yourself, or some combination of all of those. Again, my very long-winded answer to what you can do if you're feeling burned out.
Joe: The first step of helping someone else, like Emily said, is helping yourself. Last question. If I notice a colleague, a friend, someone who seems to be experiencing burnout, how do I help? How do I address it? What do I do?
Emily: Just like with any other concern we may have about somebody's well-being, it really starts engaging in a conversation with them. I know that that's not always easy, but we've given you a ton of tips on this podcast, on several episodes of different ways to approach those conversations. I would say it's most important with that is to approach it and create some safety around the person, especially if it is a work-related thing. This isn't about your performance at work or you're not in trouble. I've just noticed you seemed very overwhelmed and there's maybe too much on your plate. Can we talk about that?
Reminding them that the conversation is really about the circumstances of the situation, not their individual performance or their individual worth. There we always talk about listening, not listening to fix, but listening to understand. Because we know the power in talking, sometimes for people just sharing what they've been going through and we talked about that already before. As you do your own reflections, if you're burned out, talk to somebody if that's helpful and maybe somebody will come and talk to you. Listen to them and of course as always show empathy. Take in the information that they're sharing and really hear what they're saying and really connect to what they're feeling.
A reminder, sympathy is where you feel for someone and empathy is where you feel with someone. I really think of it that way. Then also just recognizing that sometimes having these conversations is uncomfortable. There's going to be some discomfort and I really encourage people, don't shy away from something just because you're uncomfortable. Because if you are uncomfortable, that means something's happening there. Even when we learn, we learn at the edge of discomfort. Really embrace that and get used to the discomfort and use it to your advantage.
Other things I would think about too if you notice a friend, a colleague, a loved one, et cetera, is perhaps feeling burnt out. Maybe you're not able to do all of these things for them, depending on your relationship and the situation and et cetera. For people, provide recovery time. You have a coworker and you know that they just had a big project that they finished two days ago, maybe wait till next week to reach out to them about a new project. Give them a little time to recover from that. Foster well-being. Being a positive, healthy presence in people's lives and encouraging them to do the same.
Helping people build social connections, maintaining your social connections with them can also help prevent burnout and address it as well. Then lastly, again, for ourselves and if we're helping others, how can we reconnect to our purpose? Being burned out does not mean that you don't care about what you do. How do we get you reconnected to that initial energy you had around this? Lots of different things because again, in every situation it's going to be a little bit different what's going to work and what's not. That's also part of the cool part of this. We can provide you with a lot of options and ideas for this, and you take the time to find what works for you.
Joe: We have been recording quite a while.
Emily: I know.
Joe: We started this, joking, Emily and I that, "Hey, it's two of us, we'll get it done 15, 20 minutes," and 40 minutes later, here we are.
Emily: I just have a lot to say.
Joe: It's fine. It's all good information and we need to hear it. It's an important topic, but it is time to wrap. We need to get out of here. I'm pretty sure everyone is done listening at this point. With that, if you have comments, questions, scathing rebuttals, please send them to themoosroom@umn.edu.
Emily: That's themoosroom@umn.edu.
Joe: Please check out our website extension .umn.edu. Check us out on Twitter @UMNmoosroom and @UMNFarmSafety. Check Bradley out on Instagram @umnwcrocdaily and we'll cut the plugs there. Thank you for listening, everybody. We will catch you next week.
Emily: Take care of yourselves.
Joe: Bye.
[00:40:59] [END OF AUDIO]
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