Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Market like a Fintech is a podcast by Mint Studios and the Fintech Marketing Hub, on a mission to find out what marketing strategies and tactics the top fintech companies in the industry use to acquire real customers, build a brand and grow revenue.
Araminta Robertson: If you're
still reporting on MQs using last
such attribution or gating your
content in 2025, this episode
will make you rethink everything.
The truth is that attribution is messy
and complex, but it's so important because
as marketers, we need to be able to show
how our work's making an impact, and
also understand what is and isn't working
in order to make strategic decisions.
But First touch, last Touch and classic
lead gen are reporting methods that
just no longer work In a world where,
according to a study by Dream Data, the
average B2B customer journey has 62.4
touches across 3.6
channels.
It's just a lot more complicated
to attribute correctly.
So what's a better way?
That's what we cover in today's
episode with Joanna Rocha, director
of Growth Marketing at Run.
Joanna shares how her team ditched the
outdated lead gen mindset and adopted
a more realistic account level view
of the buyer journey, where multiple
stakeholders, channels, and content
touchpoint all contribute to a deal, not
just the last Google ad, someone clicked.
Joanna's got extensive experience
in the marketing world acquiring
her degree in engineering.
At first, we need to switch to
marketing and work for startups
across multiple continents.
To help them grow.
She also runs her own community
tech talk that helps people navigate
the career market with confidence.
Runa, the company she works for is a
series B financial infrastructure company
that enables others to power instant
flexible global payouts across over 190.
Countries.
And in this episode we talk
about why traditional attribution
models are outdated and what a
more realistic model looks like.
How to run an A BM campaign that actually
aligns marketing, BDRs, and sales.
Why NAR has their BDR team
actually sit under marketing
and how it changes everything.
Why gating content might hurt you more
than help and why it being everywhere.
Events, social paid, all of that
matters more than RY per channel.
I hope you enjoy the episode.
You are listening to the
market like a FinTech podcast.
My name is Ara Minta, MD admin studios
and partner at the FinTech Marketing Hub.
And with this podcast, my aim is to
explore the strategies and tactics
that top marketers around the world
use to grow FinTech companies.
We have discussions about how to navigate
compliance, the intricacies of marketing
technical products, and targeting
hard to reach ideal customers, all of
that while living the startup life.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Well, Joana, I'd love to start with my
first question, which is I found out
through my research that you lived for
a while in China, specifically Beijing.
I also lived in China for six
months, quite a while ago.
And it's not something that a
lot of people do, so I'm really
curious about your story there.
How did you find it and also how
do you think that helped you?
In your marketing in any way, or maybe
just on your perspective on life.
I just think it's such an
interesting experience.
Joana Rocha: Yeah, for sure.
That's so interesting.
I'm gonna throw this question
back at you when I'm done.
But basically I came to study here
in the UK about nine years ago.
I was actually studying
engineering back in Brazil.
And then I came to London and then as part
of my program, I could go live abroad.
So I was actually studying
Mandarin in my university
because I could pick a language.
So I pick Mandarin and French.
So I spent six months in China
and then six months in Paris,
So I never imagined myself going to China.
I mean, it's a bit crazy to think about it
now that like, I actually lived in China
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: but it was one
of the best experiences of
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: Like honestly, it's such
a different place, it's a different
culture and I love going into different
places and like experimenting other
countries, like I've lived in five
different countries already in my life.
So I really love that side of.
Learning how it is like to live
in that different environment.
And I feel like it's different
if you go like to different
countries in Europe compared to
like going to such a different.
as well.
So it gave me such a perspective
on everything in life.
I think one of the things that I
carry even today from my professional
life is the adaptability.
I think in this market right now, like for
any company that you go into, adaptability
is huge because especially startups are.
Adapting very quickly and like
they're changing very quickly and
you need to keep up with that change.
So even like looking on a personal life,
professional life, but also like in a
marketing lenses, I think this is what
it taught me the most is like how to
quickly adapt to different environments.
And basically like take from where
you have the resources that you
have at the time and make that work.
But I would love to understand like
what was your perspective of it?
Araminta Robertson: That's actually
a really good answer, and I
agree with you on the adaptation.
I was listening to a podcast where they
were saying that in, in the age of ai,
where execution could be done more and
more by technology what a human can do.
The people that really set out are
the people who can really adapt.
And maybe it's not just the skills,
but it's the creative side of things.
So that's an interesting,
like I hadn't thought of that.
Of course, I would totally agree.
Adapting.
I think I always say
like, I went very young.
I was 18 when I went, which looking
back, I'm like, I don't know why
I, and I went completely alone.
I didn't know anyone.
I just threw me on the deep end.
But it was a fantastic experience,
just like, what you said.
And I think it was very eye-opening,
very humbling as well, because.
Anyone who's been to China will know
that it's very different to the west, to
Europe, basically completely different.
So it was very humbling in the sense that
I remember living there and being like,
wow, Europe or wherever, whatever city
you live in is not the center of the world
and people have a very different way of
living to you, and there's no right or
wrong, it's just completely different.
So it really.
Allowed me to be or encouraged me
to be a lot more empathetic, and
it allowed me to adapt a lot more.
You definitely have to adapt
when you're living there.
And it just made me love
understanding cultures a lot more.
Like I grew up with multiple cultures
as well, lived in multiple countries,
and so I always thought that.
I think people often on our team there's
quite lots of multicultural people
and I think people who have grown up
with multiple cultures tend to be more
empathetic because you have to be, so
I went to a different school, like I
grew up in the UK and then I went to
Spain and I grew up in Spain and I
was always comparing the two countries
and that forced me to put myself in
the position of the other person.
And so I think this is
ultimately why I love marketing.
'cause it forces you.
To put yourself in the
position of the other person.
So just an interesting thing.
And also I also love how China's
marketing, it also introduced me
to QR code payments and stuff.
So I think also that's where FinTech,
I kind of started getting into FinTech
'cause I was like, this is amazing.
You can make payments in like
seconds and WeChat is amazing, right?
And um
Joana Rocha: when I realized as well,
like a lot of the businesses, 'cause
like Brazil is a bit delayed and I think
even Europe, like in some instances
I was looking at so many
things there that I was like.
Oh my God.
Like we just launched this like
last year in like Brazil or like
in Europe, like we're so delayed.
So like they always have like these
technologies and it's the same thing like
before Covid you went to restaurants,
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: So yeah,
it's such a different
Araminta Robertson:
There's super advanced.
I think what really struck me as well
was back then you could already rent
bicycles by the minute or something, and
that in Europe was completely unheard of.
So that was also super ahead of its time.
So I agree with you.
I was very like.
While the way they do marketing
here, the way they reach their
customers is completely different.
So it also opened up my eyes to different
ways of doing things, anyway, it was
really fun and I always encourage
people to go because I think it
really, the culture shock , is really
worth it because it really humbles
you and makes you realize that I.
there's other ways to
do things than your own.
So I always recommend people
to go to China if they can.
Okay.
Amazing.
So we're here to talk
about attribution really.
And this topic came up because we
met at Pay 360 We started talking
about attribution and you had some
very interesting thoughts on it.
And so I'd love to start with.
What do you think is going wrong A little
bit with attribution, because I think this
is a topic that comes up constantly in
FinTech marketing, and I feel like it's a
constant debate because we haven't figured
out like a way really to do it properly.
It's really difficult but it's also quite
important because especially in FinTech,
our leaders care about the numbers and
I don't think we'll ever be able to
escape from, we need to see some growth.
We need to see how this
contributes to the company.
So let's start with what do you think
is wrong with how a lot of marketers
or companies in general do attribution?
what's going wrong there?
Joana Rocha: I think that's
very interesting because that's
like a recurring team that
comes up at least once a year
like, oh my God, attribution is terrible.
Araminta Robertson: yeah,
Joana Rocha: way to measure
anything, and then you kind of
settle for whatever you have and
then like three months later you're
Araminta Robertson: yeah.
Joana Rocha: God, like
we're getting this pressure.
We need to report
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Joana Rocha: So it's just like.
An endless loop.
And I think a lot of attribution kind
of goes into also like the business
mentality, because I think this is a
shift as well that has been happening
like in the last couple of years of
changing from like lead gen to like
more like an account based model.
Because it's like, okay, like do you
want account like lead MQL, ql, like that
funnel of like you are interacting with.
People, or do you wanna track
more on an account level like
you are engaging with an account?
Doesn't matter how many people like
you are engaging within that account.
I think this is also like a discussion
point that I see a lot of, like either
from senior leadership or like the board
or like people that have been in the
industry for longer is like, we have
this way of measuring things and like.
We always default to this way, which I
don't think necessarily is the right way.
I think we should be tracking
things on the account
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: not necessarily on the lead
level, because again, it takes multiple
buyers to engage in the journey for
you to be able to sell them something.
So kind of goes back to that discussion.
But on the attribution itself, you also
need to think of it as like, okay, what
are the things that you need to measure?
Right?
Because in marketing, the main challenge
that we have in like this big fight
that we also have with sales is like.
Okay, is this marketing generated or is
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: generated?
And This causes a lot of conflict
between both teams and there are some
companies already like calling, putting
back both teams in the same umbrella
of like, this is like a revenue team to
try to conciliate it a little bit more.
But I think attribution is also
going on the way of creating more
friction between those teams because
it, it becomes a matter of like,
this is mine and this is yours.
the way that we really need to think
about it, and this is the problem
with all the softwares and systems we
use, which are more like first touch
attribution or last touch attribution,
is like, how do you find out what's
happening throughout the whole journey?
So like, sure, they may be collect
on like a Google ad, but like,
did they see your ad on LinkedIn?
Because majority of the people,
they see an ad, they don't click on
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Joana Rocha: but.
You kind of like put that thought into
their head and these are some things
that like are really hard to track.
So going back to, okay, can
you actually look at the whole
journey instead of looking into
silos and seeing okay, because.
This came from like an email A BDR sent.
This is like sales versus like, no,
like they actually went to our website.
They actually looked at our Google ad.
They actually saw us in an event
and that all contributes to that
gen revenue being generated.
So it's also part of a mentality
shift and also being able to track
that because now realistically, if
you use any CRM HubSpot, Salesforce,
you're gonna track first touch and
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Joana Rocha: like.
impossible to track what's
happening in between.
And this is something that we really
need to find a way to do because
otherwise it's gonna be unsustainable
for marketing to like continue working
and like asking for more budget and
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Joana Rocha: justify that
budget that they're getting.
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
And we'll talk about how
you do it at Runa in a bit.
But do you think this whole moving away
from lead gen, is that also, 'cause
you just said, it's an account that
there's multiple buyers, et cetera.
Is this a unique thing
to enterprise, you think?
Like selling to enterprise, or do you
think this moving away from lead gen
applies to like all types of businesses?
Joana Rocha: I think moving away
from Legion is on all businesses.
I don't think it's just enterprise,
because I think even if you're selling at
a startup, like usually you still have at
Araminta Robertson: True.
Joana Rocha: two people or three people
that are involved in that process.
Whether that is like the CEO and
then like rev ops and marketing,
depending on what tool that you are.
so I feel like at the end of the
day, you still are gonna have a
committee of more than one person.
So it's like, okay, just because I
don't know who like downloaded a form
on the website or like downloaded
a guide on the website, like
that's a hundred percent sure that
they're gonna buy from us is like.
Is it really?
And that goes into another thing
as well of like gating content,
Araminta Robertson: Mm,
Joana Rocha: against.
I think content should always be
Araminta Robertson: definitely.
Joana Rocha: and we should
give information for free.
But I think because people are in
this mindset of like, we need to track
everything, we need to generate leads,
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Joana Rocha: they gate everything
and it's like, okay, those are
all the emails we're generating.
And then they give that to like,
these are all the numbers we generated
this month, but then at the end
of the day, they're ary metrics.
It's like, actually mean anything?
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: who are not
ready to buy from you?
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
I would also argue not a good
idea to gate, especially with
LLMs that are crawling everything.
If you gate it, then an LM can't
crawl it, and then that person is
doing research on cha Bt they're
not gonna find the information so.
Even less now, I would
say is a good approach.
So yeah, S-Q-L-M-Q-L leads, it's
just not really working anymore.
And so what you're saying is, let's
look at the full account, right?
And who are the different
people who are interacting with
different, piece of content or
whatever, different touch points.
well, let's start with the
sales and marketing team.
How, at Runa how have you taken
the approach of having everyone
under the same umbrella and how
do you kind of set it up, I guess?
Joana Rocha: Yeah, I think one thing
that has worked for us is putting
the BDR team under marketing.
Araminta Robertson: Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: in our company,
the BDR team sits under my team,
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Joana Rocha: the growth
team under marketing.
And then that kind of acts as a
bridge between what we're doing in
marketing and what sales is doing,
because I think a lot of the friction
as well between both departments is
that like marketing is focusing on X,
Y, and Z, and then sales is focusing
on something completely different.
And it's like, okay, how can we
actually take the time and resources
we're spending on marketing?
Distributing that to sales and they're
using it towards the right accounts.
So I think having the BDR inside the
marketing team is really a good bridge
for us to be able to do that because
again, they can report to us exactly
what's happening in the market, where
they're hearing from as being like
the first point of contact for a lot
of those people that are coming in.
And it gives us a lot of the
understanding that we need to
pivot and change on our messaging.
And then at the same time.
They pass those to the sales team.
So then we can see like, okay, these
type of accounts are working well, like
they're closing well, and we keep all of
their reporting as well under marketing.
So I report everything on like also
the sales side, like the BDR side.
So I keep very close aligned
or what marketing is generating
versus what sales is closing.
And it's like, okay, are the
things that we are generating.
Like, are they able to close
it at the end of the day?
Because not like we're doing
something wrong, so we just need to
make sure that they're very aligned.
So I think keeping track of reporting
on both ends is also very important.
There are a lot of teams that I see where
marketing is siloed into like, okay,
I only care about until this becomes
an opportunity and then it goes to
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Joana Rocha: then sales is
like, okay, I only care about
when it's from, opportunity to
Araminta Robertson: Yep,
Joana Rocha: That's
where the discrepancy is
Araminta Robertson: exactly.
Joana Rocha: like, here we see
really good numbers, but then on
sales they see really bad numbers.
So it's like, okay, we're not
actually doing a good of a
job like we should be doing.
So I think it's also keeping
track of a lot of the data and
making sure that you're not just
stopping at like opportunities.
Like the metrics I look
at is revenue generated.
How much revenue is marketing influencing,
and is marketing helping sales close?
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No, I love that.
And so how, if we imagine a prospect
is being targeted by Runa, what
is that kind of process gonna look
like in terms of BDR from marketing?
How does that journey look like, I guess.
Joana Rocha: Yeah, so we
have like two approaches.
Either we can look at it as a vertical, so
like let's say we're going after vertical
X and we're targeting that vertical.
Then we build like a subset of
accounts, let's say like there are
10 to 20 accounts that we really
wanna target within that vertical.
So us in marketing, like we do a campaign
towards that vertical with like messaging
that we align with sales on like what
they're hearing and like what they have as
feedback on what works for that vertical.
And then we separate like 10 to 20
accounts that we wanna do on a BM
approach to, so like very specific
targeted ads for that account.
And then what we do in the
meantime while we're warming up
those accounts is like we have.
Intense signals where we see like, okay,
this account has gone to our website,
this account has engaged with an ad.
Then we flag it to the BDR team,
like, okay, reach out to them
because they're a bit warmer.
And then from there they have a
higher likelihood of getting a
meeting with the account, and then
that's when they pass it to the ae.
So this is more or less like the
flow that we try to get throughout
everything because if the BDR is
just reaching out to code accounts.
They never heard from us, then the
conversion rate is gonna be like 5%.
So we wanna try to make sure that
they're spending their time as
well on things that we know are
more likely to yield to something.
So we just try to, again,
warm it as a marketing team.
I think that's what we need to
do, like in marketing, is warm
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Joana Rocha: a specific vertical,
warm up, a specific account, and then
from there it is gonna make the job
of the BDR and the sales team easier.
Araminta Robertson: So that's a very
a BM focused type of kind of approach.
Are there other types of
marketing strategies that you
do apart from a BM where it's
like a different kind of system?
Or is that the main one that you use?
Joana Rocha: I in this
market right now, a BM is
booming for a reason because.
One, if you take a look at like how
many touch points it takes for a
buyer to engage with you, for them to
buy something from you is growing up
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Yep.
Joana Rocha: it's from
like 20 to 30 to 40 to
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: gonna keep growing.
So it takes a lot of touch
points, it takes a lot of buyers
internally in the company.
So realistically, if you're trying to go
for an a CV of above 30, 50 K, you need
to have a more a BM approach because
otherwise it's gonna be really hard.
get inside of that company.
You can do it like just by prospecting,
like doing sales outreach, but it's
probably gonna be a sales cycle of
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: eight months.
So it's gonna be really long.
So I think if you have like a higher
a CV that you're going after, like
definitely a BM is like the way to
go, especially from now to the future.
And I think that's the direction
most companies are going in
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: as well.
But overall, we still need to
warm up the market either way.
So we're going a lot to events.
So it's not just specifically
like, oh, we have the account there
and we wanna be in front of them.
It's like, we want also wanna
create brand visibility.
So I think there are two aspects to it.
Like one, creating that brand visibility
and making sure that we are being known
for the companies that we wanna go after.
And this is like through events.
This is through like raising our
brand awareness through like different
campaigns and just warming up like
a specific audience towards us.
And then there's more like, okay,
bottom of the funnel, we wanna
get those accounts to buy from us
right now, let's go after them.
So I think those are like more
or less the divisions that I look
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think I agree with you.
I'm seeing this more and more, and it
makes kind of sense especially in the
market where we're, where also people are
bombarded with so much like cold emails
and so many different types of content,
but especially cold emails, like, yeah,
you're a lot more likely to open a cold
email from someone you've been consuming
content from, then someone you haven't.
And that's a big part
of what this is about.
Right?
Joana Rocha: That's why you
need to make content accessible.
So
Araminta Robertson: yeah.
Joana Rocha: content that you have
is like not the way, because people
are smart enough in this market
to not give you emails because
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: bombarded.
So at the end of the day, it's
like, do you want them to consume
your content, or do you rather get
their email, which you would be
able to get it in like a, any tools
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point actually.
Yeah, definitely.
So what are some of
the tools that you use?
Because I think one of the challenges
here is what you said is really
fantastic, but then how can we see all
the touch points within an account?
What have they seen?
What specific types of
content have they consumed?
Can you share anything there?
Like how have you been tracking this?
Joana Rocha: so I've been playing around
with a new tool for now, like for the
last couple of months called Hockey
Araminta Robertson: Okay.
Joana Rocha: and there are a couple
of tools in the market that do that.
But Hockey Stack is the one that
I've seen from recommendations and
referral from other companies that
they use, and they have found success.
In so been testing it out.
And essentially what they do
is that they connect different
touch points so they can connect.
For example, they have a native
connection to LinkedIn, a
native connection to Google ads.
So they kind of
everything that is being given
from there through the API.
But of course, you can only get
what the platform gives you.
So for example, like on LinkedIn.
The platform already gives you like
the accounts that you're engaging
with and all of those metrics.
So they're able to import that
into one centralized view.
But then for like Google and Instagram and
those type of channels is harder because
they don't give you that information.
So it's like more or less based on
assumption and also like IP address.
But what, But what hockey Stack
does is that they just centralize
all of this into one place.
So I can see what are the engagements
being done on LinkedIn, on Google, across
all of the different page channels.
And then I also export and connect
everything happening in the CRM.
So like I track all of the events that
we go to, the people that we meet at
those events, they're able to track
the people that go into our website.
So essentially when I go
inside an account, now I'm
able to see that timeline.
So I can see like, okay.
Three months ago, they went
to, an event, then one month
ago they reacted to our ads.
Then like yesterday, they
went into our website.
So I'm able to create that
storytelling where it's not
just like, okay, last and first.
It's like what's happening in between.
And then you can pick like how you want
to create your attribution on that.
If it's like linear, if you wanna
put the same value to every single
channel, or if you wanna wait a
channel more than another channel.
But one thing that I specifically look
at as well is only look at activities
that happened three months before an
Araminta Robertson: Hmm.
Joana Rocha: because I feel like a
lot of companies as well, they look
at like past 12 months, but like, I
realistically don't think that what we
did 12 months ago is gonna influence
a deal that got created today.
So I always look from like last three
months what happened and then I'm
able to create that story and hockey
stack has been working well for us.
For now.
I've been using it only for a
couple of months, but it really
helps like just create and that
visibility on the different
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: being with
throughout that journey.
And then I can say from like,
okay, we have X amount in pipeline.
I can say now that like.
Why amount of that was
influenced by marketing
Araminta Robertson: So cool.
Joana Rocha: they went to our
website, they went, they saw an ad,
not necessarily clicked on the ad,
like also if they just saw it or
viewed it and anything like that.
So it just gives me better
clarity on what's happening.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
no, this is really good.
We had Will Thompson, director of Contact
Comply Advantage on the podcast a few
months ago and he has a similar approach.
He uses a tool called
Dream Data, so similar.
And what he was saying was it was
a complete game changer because
I've, I don't dunno what hockey
stack looks like, but the visual
representation is really helpful of the.
Actual it's little dots, like actual
touchpoints of every specific activity.
And he said it was so helpful
to show this to leadership and
say, this is how marketing works.
It's just lots of little touchpoint,
little dots with lots of different
content events, whatever.
And then that leads to a sale.
And that was really, I was like,
man, I need to take screenshots
of dream data because I think.
That is often the challenge with
leadership is that they might think
it's just lead gen, which fair enough.
That's how it used to be and
that's how it used to work.
And actually showing that graph,
that graphic of like lots of little
touch points and lots of different
people within the account as well.
So super complex.
That is really a really good visual way
of showing this is how marketing works.
Joana Rocha: yeah.
Hawker Stack is
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Okay.
Joana Rocha: I think it's what you
said, like it's very powerful to show
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: leadership and
even like the board as well.
'cause it kind of runs away
from this narrative of like.
If I give you a hundred thousand
more to spend on Google,
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Joana Rocha: Like it's
not so black and white.
It's like, yes, it's gonna influence
something, but I can tell you like,
I'm gonna put a hundred thousand
here, I'm gonna get 300,000.
it doesn't work like that.
So it helps with visualizing and
representing that data and really
showing like is not that simple.
There are a lot of touch
points happening in between.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, I think the
metric ROAS will no longer be accurate.
Return on ad spend.
It's just, yeah, it's no longer
as accurate because it's just way
too complicated and not really
accurate really, because that's
just not really how it works.
So we're changing like, whereas before
maybe companies would focus on like.
One or two channels and they would
track like the ROI on a channel.
It feels like we're now in
an era where you kind of have
to have multiple channels.
Right?
Because I think before what people used
to say was like, better to be very good
at one channel, something like that.
And I think I'm starting to realize that
we're entering a world where actually
kind of have to try and be everywhere.
I don't know.
Would you agree with that?
Do you think it's,
that's a better approach?
Try and be everywhere.
'cause then you increase the
PO possible touch points.
Joana Rocha: I agree with
that a hundred percent
Araminta Robertson: Hmm.
Joana Rocha: that's what makes
it harder to say, like, because
if you're only focusing on one
channel, you can be like, okay,
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, exactly.
Joana Rocha: this channel.
That's easy to like say how much like I'm.
Able to influence on that channel.
But the moment you start spreading across
multiple channels, you don't know how much
this channel is against the other one.
Like you can't rely on like
meta telling you that a lead got
generated from this because it's
not how it works in B2B, like B2C.
Sure, like you can track
everything properly,
Araminta Robertson: Yep.
Joana Rocha: B2B is impossible.
So for me it is about diversifying.
Araminta Robertson: Mm.
Joana Rocha: need to try to be in front
of your prospect as many times as you
can, and this kind of goes back to.
Out of home advertising, like how do
you measure out of home advertising?
It's impossible.
You
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: you have an assumption
of like, okay, I put this ad out
there and this is generating more
influx into my website, or have
more people researching who we are.
But you don't have a way of saying
like, this was definitely what did it.
So it's the same principle of like,
you need to be in front of them.
And then you need to see that over time
you are gonna start seeing more people
coming to your website, more deals
being created, more deals being closed.
And it's not something
that happens overnight.
Like it takes up to six months
for you to warm up a specific
vertical to get them there.
But you need to be looking at the
numbers and not the numbers of like.
Google generated this
amount of opportunities.
It's like over time, how is your
pipeline being influenced and how is
your pipeline growing based on all
the activities that you are doing?
So I definitely think that you need to be
showing yourself as much as you possibly
can in like events, like we leverage
events like LinkedIn, display, like
a lot of different advertising tools.
And I think even nowadays, like there's
so much more, like you can look at like
Spotify and you have like pragmatic, so.
are a lot of different ways as well
that you can, creativity be in front
of your audience, and I think you need
to leverage that to the most and just
forget about like, I need to see the
return in this in two months, or I need
to see how much this is returning to me.
Like, you can't measure that.
Like it's unrealistic.
Araminta Robertson: no, I totally agree.
Now, I imagine we're talking to
someone, and I know this is the case,
unfortunately, in 2025, where kind of
budgets have been cut a little bit and
resources are tighter, and you're like.
I imagine we're talking to a head
of marketing, CMO and they're
like, I don't have many resources.
I can't be everywhere really.
I don't have the budget.
Like Google Ads is so expensive now.
Like I can't how you think would be a
better approach if you've got limited
resources, but you know, this is true.
You know, you're trying to be
everywhere as much as you can.
And maybe it's smarter to, instead of
putting all that budget in one event
to try and spread it a little bit.
So how would you think about that?
What would you tell that person?
Joana Rocha: I think the first thing I
would do is set expectations, because
I think this is one of the things
that people miss the most is like.
We have lower budgets.
Realistically, this is
the impact it's gonna
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: Like you can't ask me
to generate, I don't know, a hundred
opportunities with this amount of money.
This is just not possible.
So you just need to
like lay the foundation.
Like if we do this, we're gonna
be compromising on X, Y, and Z.
Like it's gonna take us six months.
To get back and like
warm up the market again.
And this has happened like throughout my
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: a couple of times.
So you just need to make sure that
you're being very upfront about
exactly what you are gonna miss out.
If we have only this budget from
there, I'll be like, okay, to
maximize this as much as possible.
I think for events specifically.
I don't think it is good to like
just do a little bit on every single
event because at the end of the day,
you're not gonna have any visibility.
You're not gonna have any impact.
You're just gonna be like a small.
in the middle of a sea of companies.
So I would choose a couple of events
to do it properly and to do it right,
like one event where we can have like
a big booth, we can have a sidecar
event with that event and we can
create like a lot of visibility.
So I wouldn't scatter that
across like multiple events.
I would just pick some main ones
and I would probably invest much
more as well on sidecar events.
if I
Araminta Robertson: What
do you mean by sidecar?
Sorry.
Joana Rocha: So basically events that you
can do in parallel, like with a big event.
So like you
Araminta Robertson: Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Joana Rocha: do like a dinner around money
Araminta Robertson: Got it.
Joana Rocha: like the day before
or on the day of the event.
I would focus on those ones because you
can do a lot of events for customers that
you wouldn't spend a lot of money on.
Like you can spend easily five, 10,000
like in London and have like 50 to
a hundred customers and do like.
For example, we've done
flight club before, so like
Araminta Robertson: Cool.
Joana Rocha: that where you can
engage, like existing customers,
you can engage prospects.
Not something that you throw like crazy
amount of budget on, but just something
where you can get people together.
So if I had limited budget on events,
I would prioritize doing those
smaller events for like customers and
prospects rather than like spending
all of it on like a Monday 2020.
So I would wait it that way.
And then in terms of paid, think you
just need to be smarter about it.
Like LinkedIn is the most expensive
channel we have, so it realistically,
if we don't have a lot of budget, it
doesn't make sense to go out in on
LinkedIn because you're gonna spend a
lot of money without a lot of returns.
So are there smarter ways where
you can find your audience
in channels that are cheaper?
Like PPC, like, meta for example is
harder because you don't have the
level of targeting of LinkedIn, but
you do have tools that help you make
that match where they basically take
like the people you wanna target
and they help you de anonymize those
people inside of those platforms.
So I think there are ways that you can
leverage different tools and be smarter
about how you're spending that money
and still get in front of your audience.
And I think this is also
a good exercise to do.
especially for optimizing everything
that you have, and this is something
that like we, I have done before as well
in my career is like, have all of this
budget now, but if we didn't have this
budget, if we had X amount of budget,
what would we be doing differently?
Is there anything that we can be
doing that could cut costs but
Araminta Robertson: Um,
Joana Rocha: same result?
Because sometimes when you have a
growing amount of budget and it always
keeps growing, like you lose a bit of
Araminta Robertson: definitely.
Joana Rocha: I have this
money, I'm gonna spend it.
So you stop being like as smart
about how you're spending that money.
So I think it's also like a good
exercise to do if yourself is like,
Araminta Robertson: That's a.
Joana Rocha: budget, like is
this still what I would be
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No, I love that.
And just finally on this topic I love that
you have the BDRs reporting to marketing.
I think that makes so much sense
when you do it in an a BM context.
How did you navigate that?
Was that you that suggested,
can we please do it this way?
Was it the sales team?
Was there pushback?
What kind of arguments or how did
you try and set it up this way?
Just for other people listening
who might wanna try this as well.
Joana Rocha: In the
company we've had both.
So we had a BDR team sitting on the
sales before and that didn't work out.
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: we had to, do some
cuts on the team and then like
the BDR team stopped existing.
And then once we rehired
again, I suggested that we
had this role under marketing.
Because I think this is like a first
touch point to the prospect, and I
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: is again, going back to like
marketing is responsible for like the
messaging, positioning, how we're being
seen, how we're being perceived, what
are the companies that are coming to us.
And in our team, the first
BDR that I got was gonna be
mainly responsible for inbound
Araminta Robertson: Okay.
Joana Rocha: we had like a, a
sizeable amount of inbound coming in.
So for me, it makes sense for that person
to be in marketing because again, this
is everything that we are attracting,
showing up as the brand that we are.
So whatever feedback we're getting
from there, it's great for us in the
marketing team to have that feedback
and then work out like, okay, from these
people that you're talking to, and that
goes back to my point of tracking all
the way from beginning to deal closed.
Because then like we have a reference
of like, okay, they talk to the BDR
here and then I wanna track this all
the way to the end, where if the BDR
team was sitting somewhere else, maybe
I wouldn't have the same incentive.
And then from there we started
building out the outbound team as well.
So now we have like a inbound
team and an outbound team.
And then on outbound team, it
kind of works the same way because
we kind of see what are the
verticals that we wanna go after.
For example, we wanna go after
Vertical X and Y as a marketing team.
We produce all of the content for that.
We do all of the research for that, and
then we start going after that vertical.
And then the BDR works out of a subset
of accounts that we create for the A.
So we create like a book of business
in our business where essentially
that's a book of accounts that
each AE is responsible for.
And then the BDR helps.
Close or like get meetings
with those subset of accounts.
And that subset of accounts is a work
between me, so like marketing and
sales on seeing what are those accounts
are gonna
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: And then the BDR is
basically outreaching to them and
giving me feedback of like, okay,
I'm to reach out to this company.
This is the type of
feedback that I'm getting.
This messaging is working, this
messaging is not working and this
is how, like we can better loop
in all of this feedback into.
Our overall messaging
and our overall branding.
'cause I feel before, at least like
when the sales team was sit, when
the BDR team was sitting under sales,
it was a bit disconnected in that
Araminta Robertson: Interesting.
Joana Rocha: So I think
for us it just worked.
But I think there are some companies
where it works best to be under
Araminta Robertson: True.
Joana Rocha: So it's just like a case by
Araminta Robertson: You have
to try different things.
As a content marketer, I wanna
ask What kind of content is the
marketing team producing for the BDR?
I guess it depends on the vertical,
but like, what are some examples of
maybe the content that you create
and what have you seen seems to work
really well in, in this kind of world.
Joana Rocha: Yeah, so we create a
lot of guides and research reports.
We really like creating research reports
where basically we interview a subset
of people and then we wanna know about
a specific topic, so how it's going,
and we want data to back that up.
So we create our own research reports
and then the BDR team distributes
that same thing with case studies.
Like if we don't have a case
study for a specific vertical, we
Araminta Robertson: Mm.
Joana Rocha: we add that
Araminta Robertson: Nice.
Joana Rocha: creating
more case studies as well.
I work very closely with
the BDR two to create video
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: so like just creating
like quick snapshots of like the
platform that they can share with
prospects as well over email.
I think those are the main
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, makes sense.
Very bottom of the funnel type content.
Very like super, like specific.
seems very specific to the industry and
the account rather than like high level.
I don't know, what is
a payout kind of stuff,
Joana Rocha: yeah, exactly.
And that's where the A BM
Araminta Robertson: Of course.
Joana Rocha: into play, and it doesn't
need to be like a one-to-one, it's
just like a one to many approach.
It's like, okay, I
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: after this big group.
What can I create that just like
puts a little bit more together
in the sense of like, this
information is relevant for them.
Because if it's like something super
generic, then people are probably
not gonna be as interested in.
Araminta Robertson: Exactly.
Yeah.
Nice.
This is so interesting.
I'd like to end on another, I don't
know if side project is the right
word, but one of the things that
you're working on, which is Tech Talk.
I think it's a really interesting kind
of enterprise that you're going and I
know in 2025 is more important now than
ever, or more relevant now than ever.
So, tell us a bit about Tech Talk.
What is the mission behind it and how
did you end up kind of running it?
Joana Rocha: Yeah, so the reason
why we started Tech Talk was because
we were seeing a really big gap
in the market, in the sense of.
People educating and helping other people
in tech companies, but not in tech roles.
Because
Araminta Robertson: Hmm.
Joana Rocha: you would tell other people
like, oh, I work in tech, they would say
like, oh, you're a software engineer.
But like,
Araminta Robertson: Hmm.
Joana Rocha: tech is much more than that.
You have marketing, you have sales, you
have customer support, customer success,
and those are things as well that I didn't
know as much about until I got into it.
So a lot of people don't
have education into.
Tech as an industry.
And that's something that I started
seeing with like, there are a lot of
people trying to switch careers now.
There are a lot of people trying to start
out like in a new career and they have
no idea where to start or what to do.
So this is more or less like the
reasoning behind starting it.
And now our sole purpose is to
help people build and fulfill
their careers in tech companies.
So.
any roles, like any backgrounds is
just positioning you in the market.
Because one of the challenges we see
a lot now, and I've worked with people
from all sorts of companies uh, from
B2B to B2C, in tech and everyone,
spend like or five years in a company
and then everyone's going back to the
job market now, especially because of
like layoffs and changing companies
and everyone's messaging me like.
I'm shocked that like I didn't
know the job market was this tough.
And I think when people go into it,
they realize the job market is terrible.
And I see that as well from like
a hiring manager's perspective.
And from having been
hiring this past three
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: the job market now
is complete chaos, especially
with the introduction of
10 times more complicated and harder.
So we're just trying to create
a tool that helps people, like
facilitates that process of like.
themselves as the ideal candidate,
and this is like my marketing behind
me, but positioning them as the right
candidate for that company and how they
can create fulfilled careers from that.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
No, I love that.
And I think it's really,
yeah, this is so needed.
I have a few personal friends as
well who are in this situation and
it's, it's really tough because, you
know, they're so smart and you know
that they're so skilled and you think,
how can this person not find a job?
This is like, it should not be this hard.
Since this is, marketing podcast,
what would you say is like.
Why do you think it's hard in marketing.
'cause I have noticed quite a few
marketing friends, maybe that's
just 'cause I'm in marketing, but
are having a tough time as well.
And then my other question would
be, what do you think is especially
important if you are a candidate
looking for a marketing role?
What do you think?
A Hiring manager in marketing
especially is looking for
Joana Rocha: I think one of the
main challenges I'm seeing a lot
of people wanting to get into
Araminta Robertson: really
Joana Rocha: That's one
of the things that I
Araminta Robertson: interesting.
Joana Rocha: identified, and I think
now the main challenge in marketing,
but other, other, uh, fields as well,
is that the market is so saturated.
Because of like remote working, but
also because of the introduction of ai.
And I think now, like as we were
talking about in the beginning, like
adaptability and skills like that
are so important in this market now
compared to like degree, for example.
So I think people just need to
take like a different perspective
on like presenting themselves.
And one of the biggest challenges
I've seen for hiring, like
specifically in marketing.
Is people not having a direction.
Sometimes I interview people and they're
not entirely sure what they wanna do,
which is fine if you're like entry level.
But if I'm trying to hire for someone
that is like very specific role and
they don't know what they wanna do,
that also doesn't convince me that
you're gonna be doing well in this job.
And another thing as well is that people
don't show interest in the company.
Araminta Robertson: Oh
Joana Rocha: things that I find most
shocking is that like one of the
questions I ask in my interview is.
Why are you applying for this company?
Like, why do you wanna work here?
And people are like, oh, it's
because I saw this job online
and the company seems cool.
I'm like, okay, nice.
But that's not really telling me
anything about your excitement,
how you've done your research.
So I think people are
lacking a lot on doing that.
then the other question
you asked was around.
Araminta Robertson: If we're talking to
someone who's like looking for a marketing
job right now, what would you say is
like key to, I don't know, improving
your chances or just making sure, you
end up somewhere that is a good fit?
Joana Rocha: Yeah, I think the
first thing is being intentional,
so knowing what you wanna
Araminta Robertson: Hmm
Joana Rocha: path you wanna get down to.
Because a lot of marketing people,
they become generalists and
Araminta Robertson: hmm.
Joana Rocha: a lot of different
things and they know how to
do a lot of different things.
But companies now they wanna hire
more specific talent, so like.
or like ops and like you need to
know more specific fields less
than like being a generalist.
So I think it's all about
like that t learning
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: You need to know a little
bit about everything, but you need to
dive deep into one field and that's how
you show your value as well to employers.
That's how you get promoted.
And et cetera.
So I think being intentional and
finding what that is, if you don't
know, like having conversations with
other people in marketing and like
trying to figure out where you wanna
go down and then also relying on your
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: in this market is
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: As well, like especially
people in marketing and sales, like you
are expected nowadays to have a personal
brand and like use LinkedIn and like
be more vocal advocate for the company.
So like traits that people are
looking for are like, okay,
like how out there are you?
Like how are you gonna promote the brand?
Like how can you go above and beyond?
So those are traits that I look both
in marketing and in sales when I'm
hiring is like to see much of their
network like they're able to build.
So I think relying on network
is super, super important.
And this is something that
is gonna be even more with AI
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
Joana Rocha: play because you need
to build connections with people.
'cause AI is only gonna get you so far.
Like everyone's gonna have the same
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Joana Rocha: same cover
letter, the same everything.
So how do you show your
true value by being who you
Araminta Robertson: are?
so many LinkedIn jobs now have like
hundreds of applications within
a few minutes, and a lot of them
are, 'cause we're hiring as well.
And we hire writers and clearly written
by chat GPD and you're just like,
do you think I'm not gonna be able
to tell that it's written by like, I
guess maybe for other jobs it's okay,
but for writing, like we need to know
that you can actually write as well.
So sometimes it kind of blows my mind.
I've, what I've noticed has really piqued
my interest when reviewing applications.
Is when they connect it to your company.
Exactly.
So when they're like, 'cause
one of the questions we ask
is like, what are your goals?
Three to four, three to
five year goals or whatever.
And it's like if they're able to
say, whatever, this is my goal.
And also this is kind of in line
with what you guys do and what
you, your mission and everything.
That always piques my interest.
'cause I'm like, okay, clearly
they've done a bit of research
and that's always nice.
So it's interesting how, when
I think when you're applying,
putting yourself in the perspective
constantly of the hiring manager or
the company or whatever really helps.
Joana Rocha: And also there's
something in this market now
called the Hidden Job market,
Araminta Robertson: What's that?
Joana Rocha: that I have experienced
a lot, which is I have a lot of
recruiters reaching out to me on
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: job opportunities.
And they're all confidential, so they're
Araminta Robertson: Oh, interesting.
Joana Rocha: been posted anywhere.
But we have the job here for you,
and this is happening more and more.
So I started asking recruiters like,
why are you not posting jobs anymore?
And everyone is like, because the
moment that we post jobs, we get.
Thousands
Araminta Robertson: Oh wow,
Joana Rocha: have thousands of
people reaching out to us on LinkedIn
Araminta Robertson: that's crazy.
Joana Rocha: over 5,000 profiles.
So now like optimizing your LinkedIn
for search is one of the top priorities
because this is how you get found
by recruiters and this is how they
message you about opportunities
and this is the easiest way for
you to get through interviews.
And even like, that's something I do
every single year because even though
I'm not looking to leave my job.
I wanna have those opportunities in
there in case like, I always think it's
good to like jump on interviews and
Araminta Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Joana Rocha: see what's happening on
the market, make sure that like you are
being prepared in case something happens.
So I think it's always good to
like be having those conversations.
So tapping into this hidden job
market is also like one of the key
things now because a lot of the
jobs are not anywhere to be seen.
Araminta Robertson: That's crazy.
Yeah, that's really,
that's a really good point.
So if anyone listening wants to learn
more about Tech Talk and go to one of
your, are you gonna do more events?
Because I saw you did a big
one recently, congratulations.
And I saw you did a TED Talk
as well, which must have been
amazing and I watched it.
It was really interesting.
Yeah.
Anyone listening where can they
learn more or maybe participate
or go to one of your events?
What's the best place to go to?
Joana Rocha: for sure.
We definitely wanna be doing more events.
We're actually launching
a new community next
Araminta Robertson: Cool.
Joana Rocha: that's gonna be our new hub.
But you can find us mostly on Instagram
tech Talk uk, or you can find us on
our website, just Tech Talk uk dot cov.
So anywhere, just reach out to us.
We're here to help.
Araminta Robertson: Amazing.
Well, thanks so much,
Joanna for coming on this.
It has been super interesting
to anyone listening.
We're gonna be doing a conference
on the 2nd of July and Joanna
will hopefully be speaking there.
So if, you want to go deeper
on attribution, please do join.
Abbie, thanks so much for joining and
looking forward to seeing you in July.
Joana Rocha: Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
Araminta Robertson:
Thank you for listening.
You can find show notes and information
about guests at fintechmarketinghub.
com forward slash podcast.
And finally, huge thanks to Orama.
tv for producing this podcast.
We look forward to having
you on our next episode.