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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
There is hope, and that's where the relationships come in. That's where caring about the kids, whether they get an A in your class or an F in your class, still caring for them is gonna carry through wherever they go.
Narrator:This is the Transform Your Teaching Podcast. The Transform Your Teaching Podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Ryan:Hello, and welcome to the Transform Your Teaching podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Rob McDole and Jared Pyles chat with Lynne Allen, a math educator with thirty eight years of teaching experience in the public school system. She was formerly at Jared's alma mater, Gallia Academy High School, but she is now teaching at River Valley High School in Gallia County, Ohio. Thanks for listening.
Jared:Well, thank you so much for being willing to come on.
Lynne Allen:Oh, you're welcome. I hope hope I can have something good to say. We'll see.
Jared:Lynne Allen was my algebra one teacher in eighth grade back in '19 okay. It was the year you know what sticks out in my head vividly about your class? We watched the OJ Simpson verdict.
Lynne Allen:Oh, that would have been September?
Jared:'90 '90 '5.
Lynne Allen:Yeah. Yeah. We we watched it. Trial took a while. I remember watching the chase.
Jared:Yeah. Yeah. We we we watched the verdict in class, and then you shut it off. We had to learn about factoring. White Ford Bronco.
Jared:Come on. Come on. Wanna talk more
Lynne Allen:about this? That was, like, the quickest class change in the and and quietest class change in the history of all school because we knew it was coming down.
Rob:Yeah.
Lynne Allen:Bell rang, and everybody, like, was hustling to get to their class so they could hear the verdict. I mean, it was like I mean, nobody talked. Everybody just got to class, and and we're ready to hear the verdict. So yeah. If a thing.
Lynne Allen:Fit, you must quit.
Jared:That's right. But, yeah, I remember that. And someone tried to start an argument with you, and you were like, no. We're not doing this. And you shut it off, and we we went into class.
Lynne Allen:Went back to math. Right. Business is business. Yeah. That's exactly right.
Lynne Allen:Mean, you know, Lynn Allen, math teacher, lover of math, and I'm at River Valley High School now. And I've this is would be my my thirty eighth year actually teaching. So Great.
Rob:Yeah. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. And and I just wanna know, did Jared cry when you you made him do math?
Lynne Allen:I don't know that I really was able to make him do it, actually. That might have been part of the issue. It was I don't know.
Jared:It was. It was it.
Lynne Allen:I wouldn't do it. Yeah.
Jared:That was a problem. No fault of hers. She presented the content well.
Rob:I'm sure she did.
Jared:She showed that she loved it, and I was just in the back going, I don't care. And then they come around to a test, and I'd ask questions. I'd ask her questions, and she'd be like, well, this was I I covered this in class. And I was like, oh, okay. Then I go back to my seat and feel awful.
Jared:But it was totally not her. It's my fault. You know? So that's why I have to feel like I have to apologize every time I see her.
Rob:So I'm sorry.
Jared:So we wanted to have you on because we did a series, last year on this podcast about the next college student. So the students that are in high school right now or middle school and helping the best we can to prepare higher ed educators for, whatever's next. Like, what are what is this next generation of student going to look like? Something that came up was this thing called the math shark, and I've only seen it on the EAB website. And they posted a 02/2025 update, and I wanted to just read off to you what what their most recent updates are because they said there's this math shark, basically students that are in a certain generation.
Jared:When they enter into higher ed, they're not going to be prepared enough to take on higher ed math. So they're saying that students that at the time of the pandemic, so 2020, students that are 16 to 18, they missed out on social development, they make friends differently, they need emotional support, and they're being right now, they're saying that they were handled well by educators. So these are students that are now in college or finishing college. The math shark students are ones that were 10 to 15 years old. So these are the ones that are now in high school, like sophomore, or they're like sophomore level of higher education.
Jared:So they're somewhere in there. They are what they call the math shark students, where there's their readiness levels are always going to be at lower levels, and they need to adjust like, educators need to adjust support, curriculum, and change pedagogical methods. Everyone younger than that at the time said there are dips, but they're seeing that besides equity gaps, they're seeing if students of color are impacted more. Overall, their scores are recovering, but it's that middle where they see that students needing to adjust that support. Now, based on your experience, are you seeing that same level of, lower scores or readiness when they come into your classroom?
Jared:What do you think?
Lynne Allen:Well, just in general, speaking over the years, I have felt that middle school students coming into high school have not really been completely prepared for the content. And what has been frustrating is that and this is going back thirty plus years. What's frustrating is the content in algebra one now, which I teach geometry, but in algebra one, kids coming out of middle school, it includes quadratics, which when I was in high school, that was part of algebra two. So Yeah. We're trying I feel like we're trying to shove more content math wise earlier on when really we need less higher level content and deeper looks at main general standards to prepare them for the upper level kind of content.
Lynne Allen:And as far as the students now, I do I do see that. They have less attention span. They really were not held accountable for their learning during the pandemic, especially in our area where we have not really good Internet access for a lot of kids. Mhmm. And so a lot of the students from, you know, the city school and the county school had no way to get online, to get to the content, and we can't weren't able to and I wasn't a teacher then, but I spoke with teachers that did it during that time.
Lynne Allen:And you can't hold a kid accountable and fail them when it's not their fault. And so a lot of students just got kinda moved forward, you know, and missing a lot. And so, yes, they are missing quite a quite a lot. Not not just because of how the content, but not even having access to the content. And so we're trying to find ways to catch them up at the high school level so that when they move on, they have what they need.
Rob:So my interest in this isn't purely mathematic. It's the root of problem solving.
Lynne Allen:Yes.
Rob:And I think algebra has a large chunk of teaching that it can do with students that they can use what they learned there, potentially synthesize that. Whether they realize it or not, that's a whole another issue. Right? So the concern is problem solving when they get to college. And we've also been doing a series about, you know, the new as he said, the new college student, what what do they look like?
Rob:One of the things that we just recently talked about was grit and anxiety levels. And it seems like you put these things together, this whole of math training, which is missing for this particular generation that Jared referenced, and then the anxiety and the the lack of desire to do the the hard thing. In other words, learn what you didn't learn. It seems that pundits and those that are reporting on this or looking into it or investigating and researching it or saying, you know, mathematically, these folks are just lost. And it's like, okay.
Rob:Well, if they go into any other they don't go into math and okay. We're fine. Well, actually, that's not that's not fine.
Lynne Allen:Yeah. I would disagree with that too.
Rob:Yeah. It's not fine at all because the logic that's needed to just think clearly and think critically in professions like business or nursing or, you know, any of these other things where, yeah, you may not be using algebra, but you need to be able to think logically. That that's a very big concern for me personally. So what what are you seeing? Is there progress being made?
Rob:Do you see is there hope for this this generation?
Lynne Allen:The the, you know, the curriculums that are coming out now, we are using they started at my previous school and then here as well is the illustrative mathematics. Okay. Don't if you're familiar with that or not. No. It's more we started it what's first started, like, three years ago was, like, the first year when I was at Gai Academy.
Lynne Allen:And then I came out here, and they're using it here as well. And so this is my third year using it. And, basically, it's more like collaborative work for the students. So what maybe, like, when Jared had me, we might, like like, take three days and hit three topics and present it. And students then would take the notes and, for the most part, do the practice problems, and we would just keep moving.
Lynne Allen:That doesn't happen anymore because students can't sit still long enough, and they can't they won't they don't wanna sit for twenty minutes and do problems. So illustrative math takes a concept, and there's a lot of interaction with the board. They have interactive aspects on their online. And so it's more of a discovery method for the different principles and concepts in math. So you don't tell them like, today, we were doing finding the circumcenter of a triangle and showing that it if you connect all the all the vertices, it circumscribes a circle around that triangle.
Lynne Allen:So it takes them through the process of actually doing the perpendicular bisectors and experimenting with it and then discovering the concept. So you don't, like, say, here's how it is. Here's why it works. Let's do it. It's like, try this.
Lynne Allen:Try that. And then, oh, look what happened. Now it's great. It's a great concept, and it does work. But my experience, it just takes a little bit longer to get where we need to be.
Lynne Allen:And so and not everyone has the grit or the persistence to go through all of that. And then you've got the tools they gotta work with, and you've got kids. You're going here and there taking care of all the tools and making sure they're doing it. And it can be chaos at times, and it's beautiful when it works. Mhmm.
Lynne Allen:So I as my third year here, I'm trying to do a hybrid because, I mean, I've taught almost forty years. I've got skills. I know the content really well.
Rob:I would imagine.
Lynne Allen:I know, you know what? We don't need to take three days to figure this out. Here, let's look at this, and let's just, you know, do it, basically. And so what you're saying with the Brit and, you know, the persistence and problem solving, the luster of math kinda builds in that persistent and keep makes them stay with something. But I'm finding that because they're on screens all the time, they don't wanna draw a picture.
Lynne Allen:They wanna sit at the screen and stare at it and think it's all gonna come into their brain how to solve this problem when they need to draw the triangle, draw this. You know? And so then they go to take a state test Mhmm. And it's on a computer, and they don't wanna write anything down. And so we wonder why test scores are low.
Lynne Allen:It's because they can't problem solve on paper because they're just used to doing everything on the screen, the games or whatever they're doing. So, you know, there's gotta be a happy medium in there. And so I don't think a lot of them have the grit and determination. Some kids are just born with that, and some have families that foster that as well. But in the area where I am, you know, the family structure is almost nonexistent for a majority of our students.
Lynne Allen:You know, I've got kids coming to school that, you know, parents have overdosed and died. They're up at night protecting their siblings. They don't have beds in their homes. So really, you know, they've got a lot of problems to solve that have nothing to do with the curriculum in any class at school, So we have to take care of that as well. And so sometimes, you know, we don't need school curriculum.
Lynne Allen:We just need to kind of deal with life in general as well. But I agree with you there. We're lacking in the problem solving, and there's many reasons for that.
Rob:There seems to be a theme that continues in our conversations, and it's this one of relationship. Yeah. Mhmm. And I realize not all relationships are the same. Like, we're not gonna have these deep relationships with every student like you have, you know, you have a pretty decent relationship with Lynn.
Jared:Yeah. I would say so.
Rob:You know, regardless of what you picked up in the content, there was still a connection that was made and an effect that was that was had that was beneficial to you. And I think the thing that these phones and other types of screens, because she's referenced them now several times, seems to take that opportunity away. Whenever you say yes to something, you're always saying no to something else. So if I say yes to a screen, I'm saying no to other things. Right?
Rob:And I wonder, you know, how much of that that relationship kind of thing that seems to be what I'm hearing, you know, you you say is, like, you're seeing that you don't have that much time, but you need to be able to get this content into them. And it also sounds like maybe there's some hope.
Lynne Allen:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know? And every student I have and and this has, you know, come from years of teaching and and seeing kids as they move through school onto whatever it is they do. You know?
Lynne Allen:I mean, Jared was apologizing, but he's done very well. You know? And I see a lot of students that will think, you know, I'll think, oh my gosh. Are they ever gonna get it? Are they ever gonna, you know, whatever?
Lynne Allen:And and, you know or they're so bright. Why won't they just do it and, you know, get the a's and, you know, that sort of thing? But so many of them I never count anybody out because I've seen so many of them go on to be business owners, successful business owners, go on to college, lawyers, doctors, and you you never would have thought of it when you had seen them in high school. You know? Professors, you know, you you wouldn't think that, but that's why you never count them out because sometimes it just takes longer to get in the position to be successful and to figure out you wanna be successful and just to kind of mature enough to find the thing you want.
Lynne Allen:Algebra wasn't Jared's thing. That's okay. He found what he loved. You you know? And so there is hope, and that's where the relationships come in.
Lynne Allen:That's where caring about the kids, whether they get an a in your class or an f in your class, still caring for them is gonna carry through wherever they go. Now we're talking specifically, you know, in this conversation about kids going on to higher education. Mhmm. You know, that's a you know, I look at kids. I want them to get a diploma so they're ready to do whatever it is they wanna do, whether that's higher education, a trade school, go just work at McDonald's and become a manager eventually.
Lynne Allen:I mean, I've had a student, you know, that out of high school worked at McDonald's, but she became a manager and then a franchise owner eventually. You know? So you just you just don't you know, you just never know what's gonna happen. So we do the best we can in the trenches, basically, and try to try to fill that gap and and bring them up to speed and just present them with opportunities to succeed and just hope that they find that thing they want to do and and go with it.
Jared:So do you think then that this Mathshark idea, is there going to be a recovery for these for these students? Do you see you mentioned hope, you mentioned that getting them a diploma and getting out the door to do whatever it is that they they want to do. Do do you think they're going to recover these scores, or are they going to be always at a deficit? Do you think the curriculum's working? Do you think a phone policy would work?
Jared:Like, what what what do you think?
Lynne Allen:I I think that a lot of the students will recover and can recover, but it's gonna take a desire on their part as well-to-do it. We can't make them want to make it up. Mhmm. We can put everything in place for them to be able to do that. And maybe maybe part of what we need to do is say, hey.
Lynne Allen:You know? I know you missed out. You know? So we're gonna try to, you know, pour into you a little bit more here to get you ready for all of this. But I think I think recovery can be made for a lot of lot of the students.
Lynne Allen:You know? And as a matter of fact, the situation I came into talk about deficits. When I came to teach her last year, I teach geometry, which is tenth graders, which we're speaking about, and I teach a statistics class as well, which is seniors. And the seniors I had last year, I was the first teacher they'd had through all of high school that was here the whole year. Oh, wow.
Lynne Allen:Every year every year, ninth grade, tenth grade, eleventh grade, either a teacher quit, got sick, or left. They had not had a consistent math teacher one year of high school until I came last year. And so I had a class we called it transitions. I have another one this year. Basically, me just giving them anything I can mathematically that falls in the high school, you know, so they get get build up and can get get a diploma.
Lynne Allen:Yeah. It was I mean, they knew nothing.
Rob:Wow. What would you say to college math professors? You know, knowing what your students where your students are, some of the things you've been trying to do, what would you say to them? You know, here's how you can help these college bound students succeed.
Lynne Allen:Well, if you're talking about math professors as far as, like, like, a math major, you know, that's gonna be few and far between students that are actually gonna pursue a math degree. But I know that most curriculum requires some sort of math
Jared:Yep. Right.
Lynne Allen:Requirement. You know, like you mentioned, nursing and, you know, accounting you know, accounting's math as well or business, whatever. And you had mentioned I don't know. Some of the questions are in the math shark talked about maybe we need to change the types of courses we offer in higher education, the math courses, and maybe they should be more geared toward the actual job that they're doing. You know?
Lynne Allen:And I understand, like, statistics is a is a really good course. A lot of is a lot of requirement for a lot of curriculums that aren't really math based. But if you're not gonna be using statistics, is it we're just taking statistics to to check off the math box? Or is there a course we could look at curriculum where it's actually math more problem solving? You know?
Lynne Allen:Maybe a math problem solving course might be more what what what they would need for the other areas besides your engineering and your more math related math related curricula.
Rob:That's good.
Jared:So I wanna go back to your, your previous answer. The math shark is definitely a thing, but you don't think it's the the only factor.
Lynne Allen:Absolutely not.
Jared:Okay.
Lynne Allen:No. No. There's a you know, there's the whole with those with that group, it's, you know, the gap in the in the knowledge and the content, but there's also, you know, the socialization they got behind in that. You know, the like, the screen, like I said before, there are many contributing factors to why they're not being successful in math. K.
Lynne Allen:And, yeah, I would there's more than more than just the content.
Jared:That's good to know because if you single out just like in any good study, if you look at specifically one area and equate that with the results, then you're eliminating all the other factors that could
Lynne Allen:Exactly.
Jared:Influence that as well.
Rob:See? Statistics. I remember. Sounds like you might be wanting to do a path analysis. No.
Rob:Thank you. I'm good.
Jared:I don't wanna do those for
Lynne Allen:a while now. Correlation or causation. What do we have here?
Rob:I don't
Jared:wanna go down that road, Lynn. Let's not
Rob:do that. Lynn. Keep it going.
Jared:It's still bothering me. It's still do you think there's room for collaboration among k 12 and higher ed to help combat this declining scores?
Lynne Allen:Yeah. I well, I think that would be, like I think, like, regionally and, like, in the area like, we have, you know, University of Rio Grande, right where we are, which, you know, does education as well. And so I think that there has to be a desire on both parts to do that. I mean, you know, if if the university doesn't really care and wanna do what they wanna do, then it's not gonna be any good for me to go say, hey. I have this idea or these thoughts.
Lynne Allen:But if there if there's a desire for both both ends to do that, I I think so. And I think we have a good relationship with our schools, our school districts, and Rye Grand. And I know know what the high schools are where you are, but I'm sure, you know but it would take, I think, tough to start small like that. I don't think you could just come out and have all universities start collaborating. But I think on a small level, if you can find those pockets where those universities and and their local school districts can work together, that can maybe build something and be a, you know, a kind of a dynamic thing that could work and say, hey, look what we're what's going on here?
Lynne Allen:And it could catch on. So I think I think it could. It could. Yes.
Jared:Yeah. I like that. I mean, that's something like I love to
Lynne Allen:I would love to collaborate with somebody.
Jared:Like a pilot study kind of a thing. What advice would you give to a higher ed instructor as far as with these students coming in to the college environment, assuming we're talking about students who go from high school to a higher ed environment, what advice would you give them or what's something they should be aware of that maybe they haven't seen in previous generations of college students?
Lynne Allen:Well, I don't know what you're seeing now with, you know, like, the screen time and the disconnection and the, you know, less relationship building, but, you know, I I think it all comes down to relationship building and being present and being aware that these are kids coming in. You know? Kinda go to a sports thing. My husband always, you know, we watch sports together, he'll be like, why can't they I'm like, these are, like, 19, 20, 20 one year old kids. You know?
Lynne Allen:And so even though we got kids coming into higher education and they're 18 and they're all, you know, high and mighty or whatever, big whatever, they are still just kids. And, you know, race is important, I think, and and just relationship building. And I always every year, whatever class I'm teaching, it always goes differently because every group you get is a little bit different. And I don't know how some teachers are very rigid. It's how I do it.
Lynne Allen:I always do it. I'm always gonna do it that way. You know, I've never been that way. I'm always open to learning something new, trying something different, and just taking stock of what I have in my classroom and then going from there. So a few years, it might take a little bit of like, okay, we need to find out where what our starting point is.
Lynne Allen:We might not be able to start, you know, at a. We might not need to start at negative z and and move forward, you know, that sort of idea.
Jared:That's great.
Lynne Allen:That's kind of a reference to integers there, Jared.
Jared:So Okay. I should write that down. Hold on. Integers. I missed that.
Jared:I missed that in there.
Lynne Allen:Anyway, so that's I would just you know? And content wise, I'm you know, I can't tell a professor what to teach in their class. But, again, it's just about the people that are involved. We're all people, and I think we need to respect that.
Rob:Thank you for your your vision for what you do and seeing it as a call of God on your life. What a privilege that you have to be able to minister Christ to those students to be his hands and feet. So thank you.
Lynne Allen:Yeah. That thank you're welcome. That's exactly how I how I feel about it too. And when he's got something else for me to do, then I'll go and do that. But right now, I'm right where he wants me.
Jared:I just wanna say thank you for the impact you've made on me and my sister. The Piles family at large is very thankful for Lynn Allen.
Lynne Allen:Love you guys. Love you guys.
Jared:So, yeah, we very much appreciate you coming on today and talking with us.
Ryan:Thanks to Lynn Allen for joining us today on this episode of Transform Your Teaching. Don't forget to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Also, feel free to connect with us on LinkedIn and send us any questions you might have. And finally, don't forget to check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog. Thanks for listening.