Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 59 – Jonathan Pageau: You’re Not Seeing Yourself Clearly

What if the way you see yourself is the very thing shaping your suffering… and your healing?
In this powerful conversation, I sit down once again with Jonathan Pageau to explore the role of images—not just in art or theology, but in the human soul. We dive into how distorted self-perception, pride, trauma, and identity all intersect… and what it actually takes to see yourself clearly.

Jonathan brings a symbolic and theological lens, challenging modern assumptions about self-esteem and emotional suffering. I bring a trauma-informed clinical perspective, grounded in my work as an EMDR therapist. Together, we wrestle with where those views align… and where they diverge.

This is not a surface-level conversation. It’s an honest exploration of truth, identity, and healing.

✅ In this episode, you’ll learn:
  • How the “images” you carry about yourself shape your emotions and decisions
  • Why distorted self-perception can lead to anxiety, burnout, and addiction
  • Jonathan Pageau’s critique of the self-esteem movement
  • The difference between pride-based suffering and trauma-based suffering
  • How childhood experiences can “freeze” negative beliefs and identity
  • Why truth alone isn’t always enough to heal trauma
  • How faith, repentance, and psychological healing can work together
  • A powerful metaphor from Jesus healing the paralytic—and what it reveals about healing
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💬 Comment Below:
Do you think most suffering comes from distorted thinking… or from unhealed wounds? Or both?

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About the Lion Counseling Podcast:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break free from destructive patterns, heal from the past, and become the men they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist, this podcast blends faith, psychology, and practical tools for real transformation.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah, mean let me ask you something, this is I'm gonna ask you a tough question here but I want to know because one of the things that you're dealing with is that in some ways you have have people that come to you, you know, that have that feel bad, that have bad emotions, bad patterns of being and they come to you and they ask you to help them feel better, right? Help them feel better, but they're paying you, right? You're their clients, you know, and you are they're hiring you to provide a service to them, you know, to do that. That's very different from, for example, confession. Like, it's very different than something where I where the priest is in some ways there to help me, but will be able to offer sometimes harshness.

Mark Odland:

Today I have the privilege of once again talking with Jonathan Pageau, an Orthodox icon carver, artist and cultural commentator known for his work on symbolism and meaning. I'm Mark Odland, a Christian counselor and certified EMDR therapist. In this conversation we explore a powerful idea that the images that we carry, especially about ourselves, don't just reflect reality, they shape it. Jonathan, he brings a perspective that's rooted in theology and symbolism where much of our suffering comes from a kind of misalignment, a refusal to accept what's true, which can even be due to a subtle form of pride that distorts how we see ourselves. In this way, his perspective resonates with that of his friend, Doctor.

Mark Odland:

Jordan Peterson. And in many cases, I think he's right on. But in my work with trauma, I've also seen that sometimes the real issue isn't pride or refusing the truth, but rather it's unhealed trauma. Invisible wounds from the past that shape how we see ourselves. Old lies, old insecurities that cloud our vision and make it difficult to even perceive truth clearly.

Mark Odland:

We wrestle with this together in our conversation, through that psychological and that spiritual lens. Underneath the conversation is a deeper question about identity. Not just what you believe about yourself, but whether that image is actually aligned with reality and ultimately with what it means to be made in the image of God. Let's jump in. Jonathan Pageau, welcome back to the Lion Counseling Podcast.

Jonathan Pageau:

It's good to see you, Mark. Yeah, great to see you again.

Mark Odland:

How was your Easter?

Jonathan Pageau:

It was great. It was wonderful. Yeah, it's always a great joy. You get kind of tired during Holy Week, and then when you come to we have services every day pretty much. And then obviously on Saturday it's at like ten to four in the morning, but you feel this weird energy just kind of take over.

Jonathan Pageau:

It's pretty amazing.

Mark Odland:

Very cool. Yeah, before we met today, was like, my background's Lutheran. I'm like, Do Orthodox say he is risen in the Easter season? And he said, Well, yes, probably even more so than Lutherans.

Jonathan Pageau:

10,000 times. During the service, we just say it over and over in every language. The priest will say it in every language that he knows, and then people repeat, and then we sing. So yeah, it's hard to know one thing for sure after the Easter service is that Christ is risen, that's for sure. You take away one thing for sure.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's good. Yeah, if you're gonna take away one thing from the Easter service, the Paschal Vespers, it's the Christ is risen.

Mark Odland:

Well, amen to that. That's great. Well, all right. So last time you were on the podcast, we had a really good discussion. You, graciously indulged me with all my therapy talk as a, you know, EMDR therapist, interested in the intersection between psychology, trauma, faith, symbolism.

Mark Odland:

And it was just a joy for me to pick your brain and how you see it from the outside, knowing that you have an interest in psychology, but that's not your primary focus and more so as an artist and iconographer, that's part of your background. So one of the things that I was excited to talk with you about today is to go a little deeper into the role of images in healing. And I know that we could go off in many directions there. There's a theological slant, there's emotional, psychological, and looking at the whole person that God made us to be, right? There's that holistic way to kind of address that as well.

Mark Odland:

I guess the first question I have is knowing the importance of icons in your faith as an Orthodox Christian and literally as an iconographer. Is the idea of, as a metaphor, of kind of an inner icon or an inner image something that you have contemplated or discussed with people before?

Jonathan Pageau:

You mean, do you mean an inner image of what? Of yourself? What do

Mark Odland:

you Yeah, kind of of yourself, kind of taking a step outside of the religious context and just thinking about the way that images shape us and the way that we perceive how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive God and other people shape us. I guess I'm curious about it because so many of the people who see me for counseling, their kind of image of themselves is really kind of distorted. Right? Is really distorted. So I was just curious if that feels like a whole separate category or if it feels like there are patterns that overlap when we think about internal imagery?

Jonathan Pageau:

Honestly, I would tend to approach it rather as the notion of the image of God in us. I think that that's probably the most important and it's the one that is the most present in the Christian theology, in Orthodox theology. There's a whole strain of theology in Orthodox tradition that's related to the notion of image and resemblance. And so, this idea that the image of God in man has been distorted. It's not been removed.

Jonathan Pageau:

It's there, but it doesn't resemble that is the image is true, but it doesn't resemble the prototype and so the the this is what the fall is. Ultimately, fall is that there's a disjunct between the image and the way that it resembles this prototype. And we are we are kind of, you know, so the Christian life is in some ways a way to restore the semblance of the image in relationship to its prototype. And so, that's why there's a big difference in terms of the way that we understand the fall. We don't understand the fall as being a kind of depravity of the human nature or of the person completely, but rather a distortion, smearing, a darkening, there's all kind of images that the Fathers used to talk about this.

Jonathan Pageau:

So in some ways the image that is the most important is the image of Christ in me. That's the one that's the most important, you know, and that my myself has to slowly move in conformity to the image of Christ. You know?

Mark Odland:

Yes. Yes. And is it is it fair to say that there from that perspective, there is being created in the image of God and being an image bearer of God in this life, that there's a present reality that that that's already the case that and it's also something we're becoming more more fully. Is that Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

So you could see it. I mean, the the image of the notion of image and semblance is the best way to think about it. It's like it's our the image is there. That is you wouldn't exist without it. It's the it's it's the way it's like it's the core of your being is the image of God in you.

Jonathan Pageau:

But but it but we're you were moving towards it because the image doesn't look like it's what it's representing. Yeah. Like it doesn't look it's been distorted. It's like if you had if you have an image of your mother but there's soot on it and then you have to remove the soot over the image so that it now resembles again. You can still know that it's an image, right?

Jonathan Pageau:

It's like I know this is a photo of my mom, it's just that it's dirty. I need to clean it so that I can see Yeah. It

Mark Odland:

That's a great metaphor. What would you say to someone who has had some degree of the soot removed, where image of God shining forth a little bit more. But in their self perception, they still feel like they have 10 times as much soot as they actually do.

Jonathan Pageau:

Well, is how can I say this? Like the thing that's going to be rough for a lot of modern people is that in theory, at least if you read all of the fathers, if you read all of the especially the more aesthetic fathers, they say that that's what happens, that that's actually normal. That in fact, the more you become like Christ, the less you feel that you are like Christ and and that this is actually a vector of holiness. And that the the more you're like Christ, the smaller your self perception becomes. You know, hear saints that say, I remember reading a saint who before he died, he complained that he had that he still had so many things to repent for and that he was going to die, but that he hadn't didn't have time to repent for all the horrible things that he had done.

Jonathan Pageau:

So this is difficult for people to understand because they think that that makes you miserable. But at least if you read if you read the holy people, it doesn't make you miserable. It actually brings you great joy. And it's very different from the self esteem problem that Yeah. People present today.

Jonathan Pageau:

Because the self esteem problem, I've tried to formulate it this way. The self esteem problem is mostly I think I should be this and I'm not. And because of that, I I despise myself and I beat myself up and I and I whip myself because I can see the gap between who I am and who I think I should be.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

And I find it unacceptable because how could I, this great person be so horrible? Like it's not possible. It's not possible for this person to be so such a dirt stain. It's like, you know, actually you are a dirt stain. And if you actually accept that you are kind of if you accept that you are full of sins you are full of lies and are like, you have all these snakes inside you and you just accept it at what it is and you know you actually know from where to move to become better.

Jonathan Pageau:

But if you can see the snakes in you and you're like: Ah! You know how how could I be like that? How is it that I'm doing this? Why is it that, why don't I get the admiration, the attention that I deserve? Then there's like a different.

Jonathan Pageau:

There's like a, how can I say this? Then then you obviously are stuck. Like you you hate yourself in the worst in the in the in

Mark Odland:

the fake way. Like, yeah,

Jonathan Pageau:

You should hate yourself in the right way. You should hate yourself for all the bad things you do. But if you if you want to kill yourself, for example, that's not hating yourself. That's loving yourself and being disappointed by the fact that you're not what you want to be. Like if you hate yourself in the right sense, not hate yourself but that's a wrong word.

Jonathan Pageau:

The word is seeing your sinfulness. Right? If you see your sinfulness properly then you'll just know that that's what you are and that's where you are. But that you have this amazing thing which is that deep inside you there's actually God inside. That deep inside there's actually Christ calling you to more, you know saying you are my child, you are my you are a son of God, you are called to sit in divine council and judge the world.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like this is the calling that you have but you have to your you have to be humble first. You have to accept that you're not there and that you know it's kind of like you can think about it like really practically in terms of someone who plays a sport. Imagine you start playing a sport and you're just not good at it. I mean, you could say I have a bad image of myself. Well, you have a bad image of yourself because you're not good at it, and you should beat yourself up over that.

Jonathan Pageau:

Right. Of course, you're not good at it. You just started. If you start beating yourself up because you're not good at the sport, then it means that you have you have too much love for yourself. You have too much, like, fake love, and you think, you know, I should be good at this.

Jonathan Pageau:

No. You shouldn't. You should be bad at it. And now learn and now be humble and know where you are, like know your place and now move towards excellence from that position. Anyway, that's Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

I know that's a little bit I mean I'm being a little ranty because I've made several videos recently on the self esteem problem and how I think it really is an issue for the modern world. So anyways, No, go

Mark Odland:

I appreciate that, Jonathan. I think, yeah, it is an interesting, I see that too. I mean, it's my field as a therapist, and I see that a lot of the field has drifted that direction. And they've misdiagnosed the psychological problem, which is also simultaneously a spiritual problem, is that the answer is to convince people that they're good people.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. Maybe you're not a good person.

Mark Odland:

Well, you're not. It sounds like that. I mean, from what you're saying, and I think I intuitively feel this as a therapist when I work with guys, is that part of the process is trying to dial in an accurate self perception.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's Yeah, I think that that's the way to do it. Confidence in that which you really are, in the sense that if you know that you can build a house, then you should definitely be confident in the things that you know what to do, but you shouldn't have a false image of yourself. Maybe that's really the right way to think about it. And you also, if you don't know how to build a house, then you shouldn't beat yourself up. You should just learn to build a house.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I mean, and I think that actually does, it really resonates with me what you're saying because I think for, yeah, again, in the counseling office, a lot of the pain that people experience is because of the mismatch. It's because of an inflated sense of self that they're chasing, but deep down there's a part of them that knows that that's not true either. So it feels like a fraud. And then there's this other part of them where they're just beating themselves up so much because of this distorted image.

Mark Odland:

So an example, kind of a very classic example that I see with some of these pretty high achieving guys that I work with. They're running businesses. They're professionals. And on the outside, they're doing well, but now their relationships are starting to fall apart. They're falling into numbness and addictive behaviors.

Mark Odland:

They're feeling stressed out, burned out. And when I ask them how they see themselves back to that kind of image, If they're a Christian, hopefully, they'll say, well, I'm a child of god. But what seems to take suck the oxygen oxygen out of the room as a competing image is something like I'm worthless. I'm a failure, but not even in the accurate sense and almost like an inflated mismatch.

Jonathan Pageau:

Pride. That's literally pride. Well,

Mark Odland:

right. And what gets tricky about it is there's that kind of sinful pride element. But then what happens is sometimes it seems like for these people, because of course my lens, my theoretical lens, is through this EMDR therapy for trauma that we And so we do this exercise called the float back technique, which is not unique to EMDR. But you actually have someone just actually sit with that distorted image. You have them ask ask them, is is there actually a physical or a visual image that goes with it, a visual representation of that belief of I'm worthless?

Mark Odland:

Do they feel it? Is it an emotional experience? Usually, they feel it in their heart or in their stomach. Right? That's That's kind of the classic place.

Mark Odland:

And then I just have them close their eyes without overthinking it. And just to kind of float back in time to an earlier time in their life where maybe the roots of that belief were planted or the roots of that image were planted. And oftentimes, nine times out of 10, it's some experience they had earlier in their life, like as a kid, where in the moment they actually did feel worthless, and it was kind of seared into their memory in this kind of maladaptive way, a distorted way, where they didn't process through it. It kind of overwhelmed their nervous system. And the classic experience is a kid who goes through abuse.

Mark Odland:

Right? They experience abuse, they're vulnerable, they're physically weak, they didn't really do anything to bring it on themselves. And in that case, it purely was this violation. And a lot of kids who go through that come away feeling like I'm worthless, I'm a piece of, you know, fill in the blank. And so what happens is it's almost like that image gets frozen in, and it comes with those feelings, and it comes with that distorted belief, that lie about themselves.

Mark Odland:

And usually there's an image that's connected to the memory that's very vivid. It's kind of like HD technicolor, and it's it they can't get it out of their head. And without knowing it, they go through the rest of their life trying to prove the opposite. I'm not worthless because I'm doing well in sports. I'm getting good grades.

Mark Odland:

I'm making money. Right? And there it's like a phobia. You talk about the snakes inside. Right?

Mark Odland:

It's like they have a phobia of the feeling of failure or worthlessness and so they construct their whole lives around not having to feel that feeling. But it catches up with them and then eventually things start to break apart. So I don't know if that makes sense as

Jonathan Pageau:

a Yeah, I think that I understand, obviously I understand that, especially the abuse part. But it's an interesting I mean I think it's also because I'm really trying to cut through this self esteem thing There's that I a there you know, we wrote these graphic novels called God's Dog and there's a monster in the in the graphic novel. Right? He's a dog headed man. He's like a monster.

Jonathan Pageau:

He's rejected and he's he's he's outside. And the I wrote a scene where he's sitting, he's in front of someone and he says, like a holy person and he says I'm worthless, I don't you know, I'm always excluded, I'm worthless, I have no value and the holy person says well of course you are, of course you're worthless and you have no value And then the character experiences extreme pain, like extreme pain, extreme frustration. And the answer of the holy person is, well you don't think that because you wouldn't experience pain. If you really thought you were worthless, you weren't experience you wouldn't experience pain. If if if I said you were worthless, you would just realize you're worthless.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like if you tell me, look, I mean Mark, if you tell me, Jonathan, you are not good at export. I don't know. You're not good at ski jump. You're worthless at ski jumping, Jonathan. You have no idea what you're doing.

Jonathan Pageau:

You're a complete loser at ski jumping. That would obviously won't hurt me. How could that hurt me? I mean, obviously, I'm worthless at ski jumping. What the hell?

Jonathan Pageau:

Like, why would that make pain? Why would that cause pain in me?

Mark Odland:

Because you know the truth.

Jonathan Pageau:

Know? Because I know that because I know that that because I am worth it at ski jumping. But if you told me that you were worthless at icon carving, and you're completely worthless at icon carving, and you have no idea what you're doing and you're the worst, then that would cause pain in me. But the pain means that it's not totally true. Like it means that there's something that I at least want to be good at icon carving.

Jonathan Pageau:

I at least see it's something that I aspire to that I want to kind of move towards. And that's a very different position. It's like that is in some ways, sometimes it can it can be pride, sometimes it can just be a kind of you could say, but the truth is though, even the truth is that if you told me that I was that I was no good at icon carving and I was horrible and worthless as icon carving, it wouldn't hurt me either. Like me, because I know that I am. Like I know that I'm good at icon carving.

Jonathan Pageau:

And so there's something else, there's something going on like I mean I think that in terms especially in terms of I understand how as a child for sure this is different, right? Because when an authority figure kind of squashes you, you know, if your parents or a teacher or someone kind of squashes you. Yeah, but to me there's something I think you're right that what it is is there's something about a a misperception of yourself, know, and of what you should be and who you are, that is a kind of problem.

Mark Odland:

Yeah, that seems right to me, right? So there's something about getting our self perception in line with an accurate understanding of who we really are, that creates a baseline to move from, to go from there. Right? And as you're saying that, I think what occurs to me is that's the challenge I have because of the trauma work that I do with people is so often there is a mismatch between the truth and what they actually believe. And that's the thing.

Mark Odland:

Once they get to that place where there's more of a leveling, more of a it's synchronized between reality

Jonathan Pageau:

and who they actually see themselves as. But even the truth about like, this is why I'm saying I don't know. Like, this I might be pitching you too hard. Is that the pain the pain comes from the the fact that they actually don't believe that they're worthless. Because I do believe I'm worthless at ski jumping, totally worthless, absolutely.

Jonathan Pageau:

Oh, I see. Yeah. I'm absolutely worthless at ski jumping. So if you tell me that I'm worthless at ski jumping, it doesn't cause pain in me. But if you tell me I'm worthless at something that I'm not worthless at or that I care about, you could say, that I care about, then it's how can I say that I don't believe I'm worthless or else if I did believe then it would you know it's the same thing like if you if I start if I start something at the beginning, like if I decide to go take karate classes, you know the teacher tells me you're no good at karate, like you're not good?

Jonathan Pageau:

You really need to get better. That one hurt me either. How could that hurt me? Because I'm just starting karate, like I don't know karate. So obviously I'm worthless, that's why I'm here.

Jonathan Pageau:

I'm here to learn, I'm here to get better, I'm here to move towards excellence. Anyway, so I'm just trying to break a little bit like this thing about self image and all of this that we're so obsessed with.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. No. I like it. So hypothetically, you're at a conference, say you're at this amazing summit you're putting together, coming up here, and you meet another iconographer, another who you know is just very talented. And holding true to the form, to the calling.

Mark Odland:

Right? They're not putting too much of themselves, their self expression into it. They're trying to transmit theology accurately, truth accurately through the icons. And you know they're good. But then then you're talking to them over dinner, and they say, yeah.

Mark Odland:

You know, I'm not I'm actually not that good. I kinda suck at carving or at know? Does would would you think to yourself then either that person is on this path to holiness because they're deepening in kind of that loss of ego or self? Or is it that they were traumatized as a kid so no matter how good they are they can't take it in? They can't take in the truth?

Jonathan Pageau:

Well it probably will depend on how they say it. You know If they say it in a way, it's like there's so much to learn. Kind of like Socrates says that the more you know, the less you know. You can have this epistemic humility as you become good at something and realize, oh man, I just started. There is so much more.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like I could be so much better and have an aspiration. That is one thing. The other one is the beat yourself up self flagellate thing. You know the beat yourself up self flagellate thing, to be honest, I'm a horrible person. I'm just telling you.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like if I'm in front of someone who's very good at something and then they express that to me in a self flagellating way, my interpretation of that is, you're fishing for compliments now, And are so I tend to not have a lot of sympathy for that. Know, like but if we're if we're standing in front of a carving and there's like we're gonna do a critique and you know and he's saying oh this this and then I'll be I'll be honest if he's showing me something that I think is successful and he's like, you know, I'm not sure about this. I'll say, no. This is really well done. Like, this is good.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like, this is well done. You know, I I really like the way you did this or this, you know, this or that. You know, people send me carvings all the time. And I tend to, but it's true like I understand, because I'm not cruel, I'm not cruel. Maybe I don't understand like the effect that it has on people.

Jonathan Pageau:

Would never, if someone would send me a carving of what they did and they put a lot effort, I would never say, this is total, like I would never say that. I would say here's something you need to improve, here's something you did well, here's something you need to improve. So I don't know like what it would feel like if I was really cruel.

Mark Odland:

Maybe like the Simon Cowell on American Idol of iconography. I mean

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. That kind of thing. Well, the the thing is, though, is that there is also a need for that. You need a little bit of that in the world Wake up calls. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

Because you don't you know you know, it's it also depends what the person is asking me. Like if the person showed me a carving and he's saying, give me a critique. If the person is sending me a carving and he's saying, oh, I wanna do this professionally now. I'm like Luke, don't. You're gonna and then I'll tell them like You're not ready.

Jonathan Pageau:

You can't do it professionally. You're not good enough. You're gonna get very disappointed if you try to do this professionally with the quality that you're showing me here. And so there's also a need to be honest about, especially if you're talking about people's quality. Like if you have an electrician that can't do the work, you're not gonna be nice to him.

Jonathan Pageau:

You just say you need to learn to do it or else don't do it. And so you need to have an accurate Anyway, sorry, we're kind of leaning around all this, but the question of self esteem here.

Mark Odland:

Self image. It's all right. I mean, think to kind of summarize that, I think we're on the same page about how important it is to have an accurate understanding of who you really are. And my sense, too, is that the weight, the weightiness of being a sinner and of our actual failings and shortcomings in this life are counterbalanced with God's grace, our identity in Christ. Right?

Mark Odland:

This paradoxical kind of counterweight that helps us endure or to kind of see the full picture because it's not just that we're completely filthy sinners, right? It's like, yes, yes, that's part of it, but it's not the whole picture. And so, I mean, does that seem right to you, as I say it that way?

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah, think that's right. But I think definitely what I see is that the holy person actually doesn't attribute that to himself so much or tends to attribute it to Christ. It tends to say, you know, this is and although it's like a weird paradox, where on the one hand, it is them, know, like it but at the same time it's almost as if in order for that to become really excellent, you have to be able to be grateful and attribute it. So you see that like, let's say a great athlete is a good example where there's something about the great athlete thanking those that inspired him, thanking the other players that inspired him or thanking his coach or thinking. When he's being complimented to say, that to not say no, I'm horrible or whatever, but to say, I'm so lucky I have these great models, I have these great coach.

Jonathan Pageau:

So it's as if it actually shines brighter if you push, if when you receive the veneration, like when you receive the attention and able to some ways give it out to someone else and that seems to be the most, the healthiest, because you see people who become very good at what they do and then they become narcissistic. And then you know often sometimes it doesn't interfere with what they're doing, let's say the sports playing or whatever they're doing in their career that's making them famous and getting people's glory, but it seems to then infect their other aspects of their life and destroy many other aspects of their life. So, it's not just about being humble for the sake the activity you're doing, but for your own soul to know that if you hold on to that glory and you think it's yours, first of all, if you lose it, man, you are done.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. That's We see

Jonathan Pageau:

that happen all the time. Oh,

Mark Odland:

for sure. For sure. And and I think people have constructed these false kingdoms essentially in their lives that because we're mortal and because these things this is like a vapor. Right? I mean, it it slips through people's fingers, it burns, it crumbles, and then it's kind of like what's left.

Mark Odland:

And we can't stand on all your accomplishments. I mean, it's had a ripple effect that makes the world a better place, and that's eased suffering and it's blessed people. Right? But, I mean, I remember, I think the first time we met Jonathan, I was sharing some of my artwork with you, and it led to an interesting conversation that ties in with this where you kind of tell me if I'm remembering this correctly, but you kind of diagnosed the angst, the angstiness of modern artists was largely to do with how much of themselves they put into their art. So that when it was critiqued, was like their identity stood or fell according to the criticism.

Mark Odland:

And so it becomes a very unstable kind of identity. And like the Apostle Paul writes, it's no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me. So this is but there's still we're still a unique creation that's still a self. But I mean, guess that's a big philosophical question. But I mean, when we think of even the word self, I mean how do you see that?

Mark Odland:

Maybe you already have defined it by talking about kind of, you know,

Jonathan Pageau:

it has to be back to God. Yeah, but it's also I mean, I think that that's the mystery of identity and of selfhood is that it only has value if it's somewhat self emptying, that it is in some ways it's given over to others and participation in others' life. And so I think that that's really that's definitely important, you know.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Do you see okay, maybe this is kind of like the person fishing for compliments thing. But I mean, if you have someone in your congregation who genuinely struggles to believe that God could love them. Right? So, like, they might know it intellectually, but for whatever reason at a heart level, it's just it's almost like there's this wall.

Mark Odland:

And and the the experience the experience of god's love is is falling flat. Right? Even if they're going through the motions, even if they're going through worship, they're reading the scripture, they're praying, they're confessing, they're doing all these things. And yet, do you see that as does your mind jump to it being a spiritual issue, a psychological issue? Like, do you how do you conceptualize that?

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. It's difficult because, we have these traditions of extreme traditions. And so because we have these extreme traditions, it's difficult. You know, if you have the story of Saint Mary of Egypt, you know, is a good example, where she lives a life of kind of prostitution, and then she goes to Jerusalem, and she can't enter into the church. There's something stopping her from entering into the church.

Jonathan Pageau:

And so, that reason, she goes and she spends thirty years in the desert naked, you know, eating herbs, you know, and and then receives communion once and dies, you know. These are not these are holy people, you know, for us. And so, this idea of like I I should feel that God loves me. So, don't know, don't I mean I don't I think that it's true that sometimes you Okay, this is what I would say, actually, I would say very simply. I would say: If you don't feel that God loves you, you should love others.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's it. That's it. And it's right out of the Bible. It's exactly what Jesus says: It's not about you. If you love others, then at some point you will see the love of God.

Jonathan Pageau:

And that if you are disappointed that you don't feel God's love, it's probably because you don't love others enough. It's probably because you are not if you don't feel God's forgiveness, forgive others. If you feel God's love, love others. And that's really I think that that's I don't know. I think that's as biblical as it can get.

Mark Odland:

Yeah, I think there's a of wisdom in that. Even in therapy circles, outside the religious context, there's this kind of mantra of one of the antidotes to depression is to do good things for other people. Because it's the sense that you're getting out of yourself, just kind of stuck in these loops in your own brain where you're virtually playing out all these thoughts and images and memories and concerns. And there's something about just getting out of that. Essentially getting out of your head and getting into your body, being more physical, doing something, hugging someone, serving someone, right?

Mark Odland:

Going for a walk, you know, looking at it, you know, I mean, yeah, there's something about moving, there's something about interacting with people, and we're wired to be in a relationship that I think is so healing. And so, I can I think that's that's probably wise advice?

Jonathan Pageau:

And Yeah. But it's, I know I feel weird. I feel like from the beginning of this conversation, I'm being super harsh.

Mark Odland:

Oh, really? Oh. Well, I

Jonathan Pageau:

think it's really because I think I have this at some point, I kind of reacted against self esteem culture.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

You know, and I think that that's kind of playing out and so Sure. The worst thing is that it's not that I don't I've been totally tricked by self esteem culture myself like I am I am a product of the modern world. Know I am but I'm also fighting it within myself. Also that's why I'm being maybe so kind of radical here is that I'm fighting this tendency in myself and so it's kind of coming out in the conversation where I'm attentive to the places where I embrace this self esteem idea and I I'm trying to to to to break it to break it down. Like, it's been interesting, you know, be also becoming a little more known, let's say,

Mark Odland:

or Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

Having the YouTube comments. You know, it's I read the YouTube comments. You know, people say don't read the YouTube comments. I read the YouTube comments. You have to read the YouTube comments and what I try to do is I try to see what it does to me.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like if I'm reading something, like some really harsh critique I just try to be attentive and see what like what is it doing to me? What do I do I feel like I deserve better? Do I feel like this is unfair? You know, am I able to take the actual criticism that would be useful for me? Am I can can I take that?

Jonathan Pageau:

Like, I notice because I I do notice so obviously sometimes it's just there's someone who for some reason had a bad day. I don't know. Or is just ideologically opposed to me or something. But sometimes it's like it could be harsh but I'm like okay, is there something in there that I can take? Because there's some criticism in there that that is actually legitimate, you know.

Jonathan Pageau:

So I don't know. So all of that's happening to me, you could

Mark Odland:

Well that's really good awareness because I mean I have the same thing happen to me when I'm having conversations with guys like trying to do my job well in counseling And they say something and then this pinball back and forth goes on inside my head and I think about something in my life and then I have to manage it. I have to be aware of what it's stirring up inside of me and how do I not make it about me, right? Because people are investing their time and hard earned money to see me for a purpose and it's about them, it's not about me. So I have to be able to channel it, be aware of it, not let it kind of derail the session. But then when I go home then

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. I mean, let me ask you something. This is I'm gonna ask you a tough question here, Because but I want to one of the things that you're dealing with is that in some ways you have people that come to you that feel bad, that have bad emotions, bad patterns of being, and they come to you and they ask you to help them feel better, help them feel better. But they're paying you, right? They're clients, and they're hiring you to provide a service to them to do that.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's very different from, for example, confession. It's very different than something where the priest is in some ways there to help me, but will be able to offer sometimes harshness. The priest will offer harshness. The priest will sometimes offer compassion if he sees that that's what will be needed to kind of keep you in the fold. But then sometimes he'll be like, Get your act together, dude.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like wake up. Stop. It's so funny, like the first time I actually when I was in Africa and I went to confession for the first time to an African priest, I was very nervous because of the cultural difference, right? Was like and he looked at me after confession, he said, You know, we're not pagans anymore. And I was like, What?

Jonathan Pageau:

What did I say in the confession that made him say that to me? Priests sometimes have to be hard. So I'm trying to see how do you navigate that the idea that in some ways they're asking you to help them become better people, but you work for them. Right? Do you know what I mean?

Mark Odland:

I I see yeah. Almost like a built in conflict of interest.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. Well, not a conflict of interest,

Mark Odland:

but a

Jonathan Pageau:

built in difficulty in the relationship.

Mark Odland:

Right. Because the in some cases, the more truthful I become, the less fun it is for them to see me because it doesn't feel good.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's right.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau:

And also, they know that you don't care for them. You don't know you they know that you don't love them because you're, I mean, maybe you could, like obviously in a general sense of loving all people, but they know that that's not the reason why helping them. You're helping them because they're paying you, right?

Mark Odland:

Yeah, it's one of those things where, mean, is the elephant in the room. It's a professional relationship, right? So it's not the same kind of love that a priest or a friend would have. But I try to, within the confines of the professional relationship, tap into the part of my heart that feels genuine empathy, that cares about them as a brother in Christ, that wants their best. I'd like to think that my genuine Christian love for them is enough to make me do a good job.

Mark Odland:

But if I'm honest enough, the money part keeps me accountable to it.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. Yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah. It's like, it's also I mean, that's a good point is to say, this is I owe them something, right?

Mark Odland:

It's like, because they're paying. I've got to be on my game. I mean, other day I had a guy fly in from out of state to do what they call an EMDR intensive, right? So it's twelve hours of EMDR therapy in three days. So they're getting like three months of therapy and in three days they want to knock it out.

Mark Odland:

This guy is paying for a hotel, he's paying for a plane ticket. I've got to be like, all right, man. It's like you said, the metaphor of the sports. I'm like getting psyched up. Like, here we go.

Jonathan Pageau:

Let's do this.

Mark Odland:

Let's do this and God please help me. And yeah, so a lot of reliance on God's I'm aware of how imperfect I am in that process and just needing God, praying for God's wisdom and guidance and clarity. But I think, you know, honestly, as I've grown as a therapist and started to specialize more and more in men, around the time when your friend Jordan Peterson was really coming into the limelight and I discovered you as well, I think what you're saying about the self esteem movement, the things that he so rightly pointed out, I think were needed and overdue as a critique to the therapy world, which had become kind of captured in a sense by the self esteem movement. And so for me, I honestly don't think my job is to artificially increase their self esteem. It's simply to heal their trauma so that their ability to perceive truth becomes more accurate, right?

Mark Odland:

Their truth o meter is no longer broken the same way.

Jonathan Pageau:

So

Mark Odland:

now they can have a more accurate perception of self. And if they're healing their trauma and there really is true guilt for something that they regret in their life, in that moment, I'm not going to try to convince them that they're a good person. It was no big deal. I'll be like, yeah, makes sense that you would feel sad and feel guilt about that. But what does your faith have to say about that?

Mark Odland:

That's where you go next.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah, well for sure we're lucky, not lucky. If you're dealing with actual Christians, you know that there is a way because we do have forgiveness and repentance. These things are real. It doesn't mean that it annuls the effects of the things that you've done, but we know that there is true forgiveness down that road. Without that, my goodness.

Jonathan Pageau:

Then without that, I kind of understand why you would need a kind of smoke and mirrors thing where I ultimately convince you that you're good nonetheless, that you're all these things, because it must be unbearable to live with the guilt of some of the things we've done without a way to expiate.

Mark Odland:

Well, that's right. If it's not expiated, then you have to live either in despair or cognitive dissonance, like playing this like never ending shell game of trying to convince yourself that you're better than you are. And it's exhausting. I think it's exhausting for people. And that's why they end up falling into addictions and patterns that are just self destructive.

Mark Odland:

So I appreciate you asking the question. That was kind of fun to contemplate out loud with you. I know our time is almost up. Think the last thing, just out of curiosity, and we don't have to go too deep into it if you don't want to, but thinking about imagery, when I saw a recent social media post with someone using AI to make themselves look like Jesus.

Jonathan Pageau:

Oh, yeah. My goodness.

Mark Odland:

With president Trump doing that. I was so I would just love to get, your initial impressions of that. And, I mean, obviously, there's yeah. I I won't I won't I wanna hear what you have to say, Jonathan.

Jonathan Pageau:

I mean, what do I have to say? I think that I I think Donald Trump is not a Christian. It's not complicated. He doesn't I I don't think that he I don't think he even hides it. You know?

Jonathan Pageau:

I don't think that he's I don't think that he pretends to be, actually. He actually is pretty honest about that. The fact that I I I, you know, I saw him at the well, not person. I didn't see him personally, but I saw him at the the the National Prayer Breakfast I went this year.

Mark Odland:

Oh, okay.

Jonathan Pageau:

And and he and he kept saying. He was like, well, you know, I'm not gonna do a Trump impression. But he was like, you know, I'm I'm not gonna get to heaven. You know, I don't I don't think I'm going I'm gonna get to heaven. Know?

Jonathan Pageau:

Or maybe, you know, I've done some good things, but, yeah, probably not. You know? And it was like, he so I think that he has no idea what he's doing, and therefore, you know, I think that that what he did, he just thought it was funny. He he didn't realize that for Christians, this would be blasphemous. You know?

Jonathan Pageau:

And so that's that gave him the benefit of the doubt in that in that sense. And also, it is possible that he's so not like, he so little understands Christianity that he doesn't recognize the trope. That is that when he saw the figure with the white robe and the red sash, he actually didn't have the mechanisms. He doesn't have the cultural knowledge to know that that's a way to signify that you're Jesus. The best thing I would give him is the benefit of the doubt.

Jonathan Pageau:

I would also say that he probably just thought it was funny. Because he says things sometimes that are so abhorrent in that sense, where he said, I'm the most humble person in the world. He says things that, like I said. So I think that that's the best case scenario is that he just didn't know what he was doing. But it's very weird.

Jonathan Pageau:

It's very weird because if you did you also see, like I don't know what they did with the AI image, but there was this weird, like, demonic figure in the image. Yeah. That seemed a little So weird. And then That was weird. Like this whole and then it it it it kinda stacks on the fact that when he was sworn in, you know, he didn't put his hand on the Bible.

Jonathan Pageau:

Like there are all these like little things that he's done to signify that he's not really a Christian and that like I said, want to give him the benefit of the doubt. They probably ran it back through AI and asked for some changes and then didn't realize like what the changes ended up looking like, some kind of AI. Anyways, but

Mark Odland:

Well, yeah. I mean, came across recent like I think it was maybe this morning I saw an alternative image where I think from Pints with Aquinas, Matt Frad.

Jonathan Pageau:

Okay. Yeah. What did he do? What did he put up?

Mark Odland:

He redid the image so it looked similar, but the face is reversed. So it was actually Jesus putting his hand healing Trump.

Jonathan Pageau:

That's a that's a good like that.

Mark Odland:

I know, yeah, so I mean he's in the limelight with-

Jonathan Pageau:

No, but I think, you know Mark, this is something that we have to be on, this is about being honest with ourselves, right? And so if I'm not American, right? But if for sure, if I had been American, I would have probably voted for Trump rather than Kamala Harris. But you also have to know what you're doing. You also have to know that this man is a immoral man, and he is an outwardly immoral man and has always been.

Jonathan Pageau:

He's always been a sexually degenerate person and a kind of luxury bravado gangster type of of player figure. Like, he's been like that ever since he's existed in the world. And so, you know, you have to you have to not be surprised Right. And not think that then he's going to now become this, like, what, Christian president? Like, he's just not.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yeah. And I yeah. And and so we have to just be honest with what and so then if we're gonna vote for someone like that, then we have to be honest with the consequences of what that is. You know? Right.

Jonathan Pageau:

The the a good example is, you know, when Andrew Tate started becoming kind of popular in the right wing circles and everybody was saying, this is crazy. This is horrible. How can Andrew Tate become a right wing figure? I'm like, dude, he's downstream from Trump, folks. He is just Trump junior.

Jonathan Pageau:

He's just exactly what Trump was, except he's like he's like two generations down from Trump. Okay. So Trump didn't run a Trump didn't run a e girl company, but he ran the America whatever, like Miss America pageant. He surrounded himself with young, beautiful women in every way that he could, And he was you know? And he goes around with his fancy things and and flashes his money and and and is like a a thug.

Jonathan Pageau:

And Yeah. So, you know, I don't know. I'm we're kinda off subject I think that's Yeah, when we talk about images, we are talking about images. We have to know what it is that we are willing to let Politics is compromised, right? And so if you're willing to engage into an image and bring it into the world and make it real, then you have to also understand what the consequences of that will be.

Jonathan Pageau:

So if you say, I think that Trump is a lesser evil than Kamala Harris, for example, then you have to live with the consequences of that. Obviously we have to mitigate it. We should criticize him. Shouldn't let him act the way he does, but we shouldn't be so completely shocked when Donald Trump thinks he's better than Jesus, John Lennon.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean we've been talking about how to accurately gauge truth with who we really are. I suppose that extends to other people as well, right? I mean to be able to see things for what they are. And I think what you're getting at too is not to be so tribal that we can't see truth, even if you voted for Trump and think of him as lesser of two evils, that doesn't mean you defend everything he does.

Mark Odland:

No, obviously. Because I think there's that impulse of us against them, them against us that is pretty toxic.

Jonathan Pageau:

Oh yeah, and for sure it's really toxic. It's low, it's really, it's also kind of low IQ to be honest. Like you have to be able to know the evils of your side and you have to be able to know the faults of whatever you're participating in or else you're going to be naive. And authorities will manipulate you by pointing out the evils of your enemy all the time and keep you in a sense of urgency about the weaknesses of your enemy. Because if you're in a position of combat all the time, you know, then you have to defend your your you have to defend your land because you're always fighting the outside.

Jonathan Pageau:

And Sure. There's a way in which that can be completely manipulative and done in a way that makes it impossible for you to see the sins of your own of your own side and of your own world. And so, to be able to see our sins is really what it is to be Christian. I would say, as a Christian, you should take it all. Like, you should say the Inquisition, you know, the persecution of other of of other people, the the witch burnings, all the bad things.

Jonathan Pageau:

It. Put it in your backpack. Like, take it. Take it. Say, yes.

Jonathan Pageau:

Yes. That's us. We did that, you know? We did that and we shouldn't. Like we did that and we shouldn't.

Jonathan Pageau:

But then focus on the ideal. Don't focus on that. But we shouldn't be just constantly defending our side. It makes us weaker actually because it actually creates vulnerabilities in us because you don't you have blindsides. You have you have blind spots.

Jonathan Pageau:

And then and then at some point, somebody takes a a big poker, just pokes at the blind spot, and then the balloon starts to deflate. And you're like, what happened? How is the balloon deflating? Because you couldn't see. You were blind to your own sins.

Mark Odland:

Wow. That's a thought provoking word to end on, Jonathan. Man, we got some good viral clips right there. Don't know, but we'll see. We'll see.

Mark Odland:

But thank you so much. It's wonderful conversation. A

Jonathan Pageau:

lot

Mark Odland:

to chew on, a lot for listeners to kind of mull over and contemplate. And as a fellow brother in Christ, God bless you, Jonathan. Appreciate you. And we'll talk to you later.

Jonathan Pageau:

Thanks, Mark. It was good to talk to you. All right. Bye.

Mark Odland:

After this conversation, I had a chance to reflect a little bit more. And again, so grateful for Jonathan for what he shared today. It strikes me that coming from his orthodox perspective and seeing things the way he does, he has a particular lens by which he's viewing healing and pain, right? And I think that for the most part, really do agree with him on his diagnosis essentially of the situation. And yet, as a trauma therapist, as a trauma therapist, I can't help but seeing some distinctions, right?

Mark Odland:

Seeing some exceptions to the rule. And I think Jonathan, his credit acknowledged that in the case of say abuse where someone's perception of truth and reality and self becomes so warped. I would throw out the possibility from my own clinical experience that it's not just the extreme cases like abuse where our view of the truth becomes clouded. That it's actually much more common than we'd like to believe. And then it becomes much more of a barrier than we sometimes acknowledge within the church.

Mark Odland:

And so, I think Jonathan and I are we're mostly in agreement today. But perhaps to bridge that distinction, a story came to mind. And it's one that many of you know well. And it's a story from scripture of where Jesus heals the paralytic. And in that story, most people in the crowd were able to come to Jesus on their own.

Mark Odland:

They were able-bodied. They could choose whether or not to draw near, whether to listen, whether to be honest about themselves, to respond to what they're hearing or not. And in many ways that's what Jonathan is pointing to. There's a kind of suffering that really does come from resisting the truth. From a misalignment between who we are and who we believe ourselves to be.

Mark Odland:

But the paralytic is different. He he truly wants to get to Jesus, but he just simply can't. There's a real barrier in the way. Something physical. Something outside of sheer willpower.

Mark Odland:

And so he needs others to carry him, to remove the obstacle, to lower him down through the roof into that place where he can finally encounter Christ. And I think that's actually a helpful picture for trauma. Because for some people, the issue isn't simply pride or refusal. In many cases it might be but not all cases. And for some people it's truly a biological reality.

Mark Odland:

Their nervous system, their brains have been shaped by wounds from the past that have created a barrier, something that distorts perception, that holds the body and mind captive in a place where the truth is harder to see, harder to feel, and harder to trust. And in those cases, often requires help. And while spiritual disciplines are amazing and needed and we're called to participate in them and they are healing and helpful, when it comes to the biological reality of trauma, extra help is sometimes needed. Extra help is sometimes needed. And therapy is not a replacement for faith.

Mark Odland:

It's not a replacement for the church. And it's certainly not a replacement for Jesus himself. All that being said, sometimes, sometimes like those faithful friends, we just need to come alongside and help carry the weight and remove the barriers that stand in the way. And when those barriers begin to come down, something powerful can happen. People can see more clearly.

Mark Odland:

They can begin to recognize the truth, not just intellectually, but experientially at a heart level. That's what I see every day as an EMDR therapist, helping men to heal from their trauma. And so in that place, in that place when the barriers are removed, a different kind of healing can begin. Not just psychologically, but spiritually as well. So all that being said, I was so grateful for that conversation.

Mark Odland:

Really appreciate Jonathan and his such a unique insight that he offers. Seeing the world symbolically with a fresh set of eyes that is, sharpens me, that makes me think about my own work and my own calling more clearly. I hope it was, food for thought for all of you. I hope it was, something that challenged you, that inspired you, and, compels you to think more deeply about these things. If you found this podcast helpful, interesting, know that my first conversation with Jonathan is also linked to our channel.

Mark Odland:

I'd love to hear your comments. I read every one and would love to respond and be part of the conversation with you guys. Take care again and God bless. Talk to you soon.