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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Brian (00:02.191)
Hello and welcome to the Foster Friendly podcast. I'm your host Brian and I have my co-host the quicksodic Travis. so yeah, Travis, you know that one.
Travis (00:10.805)
Hmm.
Not a clue, as usual.
Brian (00:16.059)
It's based off the novel Don Quixote. And so, Quixote, the adjective is quixotic, meaning that you have some unusual ambition and a key on the unusual parts, like tilting at windmills and buying buses and things like that. So, yeah, that's it.
Kim Botto (00:38.593)
you
Travis (00:41.363)
Okay, well, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.
Brian (00:44.245)
Yes, and then we have our wonderful guest today. We know what that word means. Kim Bato. Kim, welcome to our podcast. We're so glad to have you here.
Kim Botto (00:54.85)
Thank you and thanks for the little vocab lesson there. I didn't know it's, that's amazing. Yes.
Brian (00:57.883)
Yes, yeah, that's a there's a you get some extra benefit on this podcast. There's usually a word every every podcast that people get to learn. So well, Kim, we love having you here today and it's been fun just getting to visit a little bit before this podcast. But I'd to introduce you to our listeners. And you are an author.
Travis (00:58.677)
Hahaha
great Scrabble word.
Kim Botto (01:08.138)
Nice. Love it. Love it.
Brian (01:27.675)
and speaker and host of a podcast and I love the title. Every child belongs. So that resonates with us. But more, I don't know, importantly, but personally, you're an adoptive mom, grandma of 11. That's right, 11. That's a lot of grandkids. And then you're a real big advocate for kids and teens, especially those.
Kim Botto (01:33.603)
Yep.
Kim Botto (01:46.04)
Yep, yep.
Travis (01:47.553)
Ha ha.
Brian (01:55.675)
with some disabilities and of course some of those internal hurts. And so we are looking forward to learning from you today.
Travis (02:08.321)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (02:08.45)
Looking forward to chatting with both of you guys.
Brian (02:11.548)
All right, Kim. So before we get into some of the deeper stuff, we're going to have little icebreaker. You are from Cincinnati. And we learned that Cincinnati is, and I knew this, but I guess I didn't know it was an official designation, is the chili capital of the world. And two million pounds of chili consumed annually in that city.
Kim Botto (02:20.129)
I am, yep.
Kim Botto (02:30.942)
It is. It is.
Brian (02:39.867)
Um, uh, yeah, yeah, that's, uh, I thought there was a strange smell in, uh, in that tech city. It's a river. Okay. Sure. Whatever. Oh, right.
Travis (02:40.663)
Slow Chile.
Kim Botto (02:47.822)
It's the river. It's the river.
Travis (02:50.261)
Well, Chicago's the... It's the river. Always the river. You know, Chicago's the windy city, but why is Cincy not the wind... That's... I'm just wondering... Okay. Yeah, you're on with two guys today and we're just... That's...
Kim Botto (03:02.241)
man.
Brian (03:04.426)
Sorry, Yeah, yeah. It's true. Yeah, gosh, you get guys together. Just so you know, yeah, if women don't know what goes on like at men's retreats, we all revert. Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, yeah. So, but tell us about, there's something distinct about the Cincinnati chili. What makes it unique?
Kim Botto (03:04.718)
was gonna tune you in your high guys.
Kim Botto (03:15.886)
I have sons, I'm aware. I have sons.
Travis (03:17.091)
I have sods on.
Kim Botto (03:29.378)
Well, first of all, I didn't know that there's anything unique about it until I was old.
Brian (03:34.039)
you thought chili was this a way you guys make it, okay.
Kim Botto (03:37.184)
Right, and so the way we make it, it's soupier and we put it on hot dogs, we put it on spaghetti, and then we load it up with cheese and beans and onions and all kinds of stuff, and it's delish. And in Cincinnati, there's what they call chili wars, where the different, you know, there's Skylon chili, there's empress. I actually live in Northern Kentucky. I'm just a couple miles from Cincinnati.
Travis (03:37.761)
haha
Brian (03:46.372)
Yes.
Travis (03:47.2)
Yeah.
Brian (03:52.251)
Okay.
Travis (03:58.272)
Hmm.
Brian (04:01.53)
Yep.
Brian (04:06.266)
Yeah, yeah.
Travis (04:06.631)
Okay Dixie chili
Kim Botto (04:06.93)
and we have Dixie chili. So I grew up, I grew up on Dixie chili. I didn't know about the other chilies. Yeah.
Brian (04:09.371)
Now, okay, okay, okay, okay, well, yeah, let's not talk about foster care today. Let's learn more about Dixie Chili. Well, no, what is Dixie Chili?
Travis (04:13.783)
I it. This is...
Dixie chili.
Kim Botto (04:19.499)
That's the chilly. Let's not. Let's not. Please let's not.
It's a Cincinnati chili. It's just a name brand, but it's, have you guys ever had Cincinnati chili?
Brian (04:33.218)
Okay, alright, okay.
Travis (04:36.585)
Yeah, me too, yeah.
Brian (04:37.079)
I have, yes. Yeah, it's a stretch to call it chili, I think. Well, it's all the spaghetti. It's like it's spaghetti. I know. I know. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I gained like two pounds a day when I was visiting Cincinnati.
Kim Botto (04:39.149)
And so.
Travis (04:42.615)
gauntlet throw down. It the sauce. Yeah, but people that live there, mean, Skyline Chili is. Yeah, no, man.
Kim Botto (04:46.55)
It's more like a sauce. It's like a sauce.
Kim Botto (04:53.806)
That's right.
Kim Botto (04:57.836)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Travis (04:59.729)
That's awesome. Great stories though. Thank you for the little chilly intro there on that.
Kim Botto (05:03.692)
Yeah, next time you're in town, I can take you around to the different ones. You can do a little taste test.
Brian (05:08.343)
Yeah, yeah. All right.
Travis (05:09.234)
I would love that. I would love that.
Travis (05:14.559)
Well, yeah, thanks for that. Sometimes we like to open up light, because we all know that foster care can have some heavy parts and heavy topics. But transitioning into that, and as we learn more of your story and your reach and mission, I wanted to start off talking about, particularly in the faith community, you have a particular focus on trauma-informed care and disability ministries, especially in the realm of kids, which is incredible. Those spheres coming together.
Kim Botto (05:17.518)
I think it's good. I like it.
Travis (05:42.699)
So Kim, just tell us more about those focus areas specifically and then what led you into the journey to engage people in that.
Kim Botto (05:49.87)
Sure. so I'm a long time kids and student pastor, and I was leading kids and student ministry at a large multi-site church in Cincinnati. And as a team, we wanted to be a place where every kid could come. At that point, we had adopted our two youngest daughters, one at the age of 10 and one at the age of 15. And it was through them joining our family that my husband and I came to understand
Brian (06:12.239)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (06:19.298)
We thought we were pretty great parents, you know? See, you guys know, you're laughing. We had three bio kids and so many of the strategies that we use with our bio kids, not only were they not helpful, they were actually detrimental. And that's when we started to realize, they didn't feel safe before. And just because they were in a different environment, that didn't change it. They still didn't feel safe. So they were in survival mode and that affected their behaviors.
Brian (06:21.217)
Hahaha
You gotta level up.
Brian (06:34.427)
Mm.
Kim Botto (06:47.958)
which then made me look at some of the kids that we had in our ministry and thinking about what is their behavior telling us? And we had a number of adoptive and foster parents on our staff team. And after prayer and much discussion, we decided we wanted to be a place for every kid. We wanted every child to be able to find their place within our walls. And so we started going to school on trauma-informed care and getting trained.
Brian (06:51.835)
Mmm.
Brian (07:07.205)
Mmm.
Kim Botto (07:17.164)
And at the same time, also, we wanted to be a place for kids whose brains were wired differently or who had disabilities. And what we found is the trauma informed strategies, they're based on relationship and connection. Well, that doesn't just work with kids who've experienced trauma. It works with kids with big behavior issues. It works with your spouse on a bad day. I mean, these are just great.
Brian (07:24.283)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (07:31.681)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (07:34.636)
Right, right.
Travis (07:34.913)
Hmm.
Brian (07:38.795)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (07:42.388)
strategies and so we started training our teams, our volunteers on trauma-informed strategies and through that we did become a place where kids who were turned away because I mean I think I'm sure you guys know kids are turned away from other churches. I mean the the newest statistic out of Baylor now says 47 percent of families with kids with disabilities have left at least one church most multiple churches because their kids weren't supported so
Brian (07:44.505)
Yes.
Brian (07:58.703)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (07:59.361)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (08:09.973)
Well... Mmm.
Kim Botto (08:12.61)
we started getting kids that weren't permitted to go other places that were thriving in our environments with modifications and support. I mean, we had to change the way we did things.
Travis (08:23.539)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (08:24.005)
So when you use the word disabilities, help me understand what you mean by that. Because I think 20 years ago, if you said that to me, I would have thought children in wheelchairs.
Kim Botto (08:36.236)
Right. And that's why actually I don't, I talk a lot about kids who are neurodivergent or kids who've experienced trauma because I think the kids with, as we think, I hate to use it, but a traditional disability, what we think of, we think of kids in a wheelchair, kids with a disability that is clearly apparent as soon as we look at that child. Yes. Down syndrome. Those children,
Travis (08:49.751)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (08:52.729)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (08:59.535)
You see, yeah, right, right.
Travis (09:00.503)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (09:05.194)
often get more grace because people look at them and they have realistic expectations for them. However, our kiddos who've had really hard backgrounds or kids who are autistic or ADHD whose brains are wired differently, they look typical. But the way they experience the world is anything but typical. So that's really...
Brian (09:08.025)
Yes. Yes.
Travis (09:09.665)
Hmm.
Travis (09:14.704)
huh.
Brian (09:25.497)
Yes.
Travis (09:30.444)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (09:33.582)
I feel like when I'm talking to people about creating spaces for every child to belong, it's the kids who aren't, they aren't given the grace that a kid with a visible disability would. So it's more the kids with invisible disabilities and kids from trauma.
Travis (09:42.86)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (09:43.268)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (09:49.519)
Yeah, that's so important for people to understand. When I think about churches, this is normal for every organization, every person. There's a learning curve. And you do start with what is most obvious, I think. It's like, I see that this child is in a unique category.
Travis (09:51.159)
Mm.
Kim Botto (10:03.768)
Sure.
Brian (10:14.809)
So whether it's a physical disability or Down syndrome or something like that, and the church learns to get better. And then as they continue, just as you did, you learn more and more and you're like, this is deeper and more complex than we first imagined. And are we willing to get better?
Kim Botto (10:36.366)
Right, right. And I think a lot of places, they look at their traditional disability and they say, well, we've got ramps and wide bathroom stalls, so we're set. And there was a survey that was done by Lifeway. was like 97 % to 98 % of senior pastors said a person with disabilities would feel welcome in our church.
Travis (10:48.3)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (10:48.949)
Right. wow.
Travis (11:04.247)
you
Kim Botto (11:04.396)
And then they took that survey to people with disabilities or families with kids who had differences and they're going, that's not true. And I think it's because we don't understand. It's about, it's not about the building being accessible. It's about the people being accessible. And in order for us to be accessible, it's not about making the kid change to comply to what we think are realistic expectations. It's about us changing to accommodate the kid's needs.
Brian (11:11.319)
Not even close.
Travis (11:11.999)
No.
Travis (11:19.319)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (11:34.427)
You know, this is personal and I'm not going to get into any details, but some of my grandkids and how should I again broadly say, they're not going to church anywhere anymore. so it's...
Travis (11:34.635)
Gold, that was gold.
Kim Botto (11:51.65)
Right?
Brian (11:57.243)
Since there is such a disconnect between what the churches think they're doing and they're doing it well and versus the families who are experiencing it, the kids that are experiencing it and they're saying it's not going well and I'm not going to go anymore. It's not worth it. What did you guys do? And I know it's not as simple as a, you know, losing weight before and after picture, but take, take your church and say before and after, know, before we started down this path.
Here's what we did and this is what the experience was like. And here's some things that we did that made things better because there are a lot of people out here listening who are like, I'm on staff at a church or I attend a church or I'm about to quit a church and I'd love to if my church did this thing that Kim mentioned.
Kim Botto (12:42.317)
Right.
Kim Botto (12:45.878)
Right. Well, first of all, Brian, I want to say my heart breaks that you have grandchildren. And it's not just your grandchildren. It's their parents and their siblings who aren't going to church. And that's why I'm so fired up about this. And you said it's not as easy as a before and after weight loss picture. It's way easier than we make it out to be. Way easier.
Brian (12:54.33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brian (13:01.626)
Yeah.
Brian (13:08.699)
Okay, thanks for giving us hope there. Okay.
Travis (13:08.727)
Hmm.
Travis (13:12.087)
Haha.
Kim Botto (13:13.332)
We, because I'm a part of the church, we make it way too complicated. And I believe it starts with our mindset. And that comes from we help people change their mindsets through statistics and stories and science. So what we did is we helped people understand how trauma affects the brain and a child who's experienced trauma is in survival mode.
Brian (13:21.454)
Mmm.
Kim Botto (13:42.41)
So when you switch from goldfish to graham cracker on the weekend, you're going, whatever, that's not a big deal. Well, a kid who has had all kinds of surprises that aren't good in their life, a simple change like that could make a big impact on him. Now that doesn't mean that we can't switch our snacks, but that means that we have to have the mindset going in that if a kid is having a meltdown and a tantrum is something that they have control over, a meltdown they don't have control over.
Travis (13:47.927)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (14:08.832)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (14:10.094)
If they're having a meltdown, it's up to us as the adults to dig beneath the behavior, figure out what the need is, and help the kids. So we started with mindset, with telling them sites, giving them statistics. One out of 31 kids are diagnosed with autism right now. The stats on how many kids experience trauma. So you can't say, like when I talk to churches, they go, we don't have any kids that have experienced trauma, or we don't have any kids who are neurodivergent. I'm going, why not?
Brian (14:40.251)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Kim Botto (14:40.386)
They're, I mean, seriously, like why not? They're in your schools, they're in the playground, they're living on the street that your church is on. So either they're in your church and they feel like they can't be open with you or they don't feel like your church is a place for them. So once, but you gotta start with a mindset change. So you do that and then you just give them simple tools. I mean, you guys know Karen Purvis, connect before you correct.
Travis (14:40.777)
wow.
Hmm.
Brian (14:46.884)
Yeah
Travis (14:48.427)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (14:55.799)
Hmm.
Travis (15:07.991)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (15:08.859)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (15:10.558)
Super easy strategy. You talk about how you increase safety, using visual schedules. Kids who've experienced trauma don't know what's coming next. That makes them nervous and can make them behave in a way that's hard. So give them a schedule. Let them be able, at any point in the day, be able to look and see, this is what's coming next. So we just started with simple things. for some of our staff, went to, I mean, training that were days long.
Travis (15:31.692)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (15:39.81)
You know, got, I went to TBR practitioner training, but the typical volunteer isn't going to do that. And they don't need that. They just need simple tools. And if their heart is changed toward the kid, if they're looking at this kid as created in God's image and fearfully and wonderfully made, then they are going to be more apt to respond in helpful and hopeful ways.
when the kid's behavior doesn't meet expectations.
Brian (16:11.013)
Yeah, that's huge. I've had this idea for a while that the church is where, when it comes to kids who have experienced trauma, the church is where it was about 50 years ago when it came to how they responded to kids with autism.
Kim Botto (16:26.542)
Yeah.
Brian (16:34.747)
So what I mean is like, for example, let's go back 50 years in time and a family walks in to a church, they're new, and they have a child who's on the spectrum. And it might have not been uncommon that 50 years ago, a lot of people would have seen that child and their behavior and said, that kid is weird. And now, now it'd be very common that people would recognize, that kid is on the spectrum and
and we have people who can help. it's changed their judgment from being judgmental negatively to being discerning and saying we have hope. But I think that's true today with kids in trauma. Instead of saying, that kid is sad, they're saying that kid is bad.
Kim Botto (17:08.13)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (17:16.706)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (17:21.198)
Right, right. I think it was originally attributed to Walt Whitman and then Ted Lasso kind of revived the, yes, be curious, not judgemental. Now I use that in trainings a lot, but I always have to tell people like, you cannot let it go past where I say to stop. Because there is lots of profanity in Ted Lasso. that's, I mean, it's a great show too. But.
Travis (17:21.633)
you
Travis (17:27.927)
You already know where it's
Brian (17:28.021)
yeah, I know. the dart the dart scene. Yes
Brian (17:40.824)
Hahahaha
man, that's so good. Yes.
Travis (17:45.142)
Haha
Yeah.
Kim Botto (17:50.274)
But Brian, know, so talking about these kids, yeah, so often we're like, and I'm using air quotes, they're bad or they're out of control or they're parents, they just need to discipline them. Whereas if we're curious, we actually can't be judgmental because if we're curious, we're asking questions, we're trying to figure out what's going on with the kids, seeing how we can help. It's impossible to be judgmental if you're being curious. So I think being curious is one of the
Brian (17:57.242)
Yeah.
Brian (18:00.931)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian (18:05.979)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (18:20.098)
best attributes we can have when dealing with a kid from trauma. And I will also say, because I've talked to people, go, well, I just need to know the whole story. I'm going, no, you don't. And they'll go, yeah, I do. I go, OK, here's the whole story. They've had a really hard background.
Brian (18:30.821)
Hmm.
Brian (18:35.235)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (18:36.942)
And I've talked to professionals, therapists, and I've asked them. I was talking to one on my podcast, and I said, so what do you, when somebody says, I need to know, what do you say? And she goes, why do you ask them? Why do you need to know? You don't need to know. So tell me what's going on with you, that you have this deep need to know this child's history. You don't need to know in order to be kind and patient and grace-filled.
Brian (18:50.683)
Hmm.
Right? Right.
Travis (18:53.941)
Hahaha. Yeah.
Brian (19:01.359)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's you see sometimes, you know, memes of like, here's a person's life. It's a big circle. And then there's a tiny little sliver says how much you know about it. And and then it's like it and just as you said, you don't or there's another one. It's like everyone's carrying a hurt or burden that, know, that people don't know about. And so you don't have to if you just start with those assumptions and are compassionate.
Kim Botto (19:13.698)
Yes.
Travis (19:14.039)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (19:29.121)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (19:31.227)
and willing to connect before you correct, that goes a long ways.
Kim Botto (19:34.766)
Yeah, and it's not just the kids. It's your child who is parenting a child who's experienced trauma. We also need to be curious and extend grace to the parents too.
Brian (19:47.811)
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Travis (19:48.449)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, sad.
Brian (19:52.513)
Well, I mean, I spend the rest of this episode just on that church stuff, because I think there's a long ways to go. I do think of churches, like you said, would learn more about trauma. Not only would they be better with helping these kids and families who had really hard backgrounds, unusually hard, but they'd be better at all relationships and they'd help fulfill the great commission to make disciples better.
Kim Botto (20:20.426)
Right, right, yeah, yeah. When Jesus said go to all the nations, he was talking about the foster kid down the street and the kid with autism. Yes, it's not just going across the ocean.
Brian (20:29.721)
Yeah, outside your circle. Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah, it's across the street and across the tracks. So you have a book and so I'd to learn more about that for people to maybe consider picking up and reading. But the title is called Boundless Hope for Every Child and I love the word hope. And the subtitle is very descriptive. Help for the hurting, compassion for the misunderstood.
Kim Botto (20:40.45)
Yes.
Kim Botto (20:52.536)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (20:59.931)
Belonging for the Lonely. Just tell us a little bit more about this book, why you wrote it, and what people can expect from getting out of it.
Kim Botto (21:11.148)
Okay, I, you know, when we started really working to be a place where every kid could belong at our church, I found the need for other people to be educated and informed on this without having to go, like I said, to multiple days training.
Brian (21:30.651)
Mmm.
Kim Botto (21:30.878)
Also, also, I not only worked at church, I worked at nonprofit with multi-system involved youth, mostly males between the ages of 13 and 23. They were all under the care of the state living in group homes.
Brian (21:42.363)
Can you define what you said there, multi-system involved youth?
Kim Botto (21:46.582)
Multi-system-involved youth means that, for one, they're involved in the child protective services. Their parents no longer have custody. Then they're involved in another system. It might be alternative school. It might be juvenile justice, which most of them were a mental health. And what I found is these kids were hurting. They were misunderstood, and they were lonely.
Brian (21:52.153)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (21:59.991)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (22:09.433)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (22:13.81)
I wanted to help raise awareness of these kids and what they need. And that was really the start of the book. And also, mean, having two daughters that experienced hard beginnings that sometimes comes out in their behavior now, I saw people misunderstanding and judging them. And I wanted to help inform people so they could be a safe person.
Brian (22:32.962)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (22:43.342)
in our daughter's lives as well as other kids, because you guys both know it starts with a safe person. Like you need a safe person. So that's why I wrote it. And so the book originally was going to be for church leaders. But then as I had people, therapists and parents reading it beforehand, the strategies in here are applicable in schools, they're applicable in your home.
Brian (22:51.407)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (22:51.703)
Hmm.
Brian (23:04.923)
Thank
Kim Botto (23:12.078)
I really wasn't writing to parents, but then parents are reading it and saying, oh my gosh, I feel so seen, I feel so heard. Hey, on page 92, paragraph two, do you care if I just copy that and send that to my principal and sign my name to it? And I'm like, no, no, do that. Yes, you have permission. Adopt them as foster parents. You can use whatever you want and call it your own. So that was the motivation for doing that because in boundless hope, that was a word that I got.
Brian (23:17.819)
Mmm.
Travis (23:18.017)
Hmm.
Brian (23:24.571)
Yeah, fire away. Yeah.
Travis (23:24.823)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Kim Botto (23:41.644)
years ago because as I'm looking in the eyes of some of these kids, including our daughters when we first adopted them, they'd lost hope in themselves.
Brian (23:50.299)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (23:52.128)
And how we start rekindling that hope in them is the adults around them having boundless hope. Boundless meaning no matter what you're seeing in front of you, you still have hope. That there's more to the story. That this kid's story isn't over yet.
Travis (24:09.835)
love that.
Brian (24:10.075)
And now that you defined boundless, ahead. What do you mean by the word hope? mean, sometimes people just think hope means like it's something just ethereal. It's just a wish.
Kim Botto (24:27.798)
No, it's the expectation that something good is going to happen. So it's the expectation in these kids' lives that something good is going to happen. And that doesn't mean the way I would have it, but it means that they can be fully who they are, that I can help uncover. Because what I found, especially working at the nonprofit, was a lot of these guys had amazing skills and they were super creative.
Brian (24:45.635)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (24:56.834)
But nobody knew. It was buried. So we can help pull those out and dust them off and help them use that. So hope is expecting something good. And going back to that, book, which I'm sure you've read, my gosh, it's blue. It just escaped me. Blue with the body keeps the score. There's a great illustration in there where kids from
Brian (24:58.341)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (25:02.223)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (25:16.994)
yeah.
Kim Botto (25:22.792)
stable, loving environments and the kids from hard backgrounds were looking at pictures and the kids from the stable environments would look at a picture of a dad changing a tire. They're getting ready for vacation or he's showing his son how to change a tire. Where the kids who had hard backgrounds are looking at the picture and saying, yeah, his son who's standing there next to him is getting ready to kick the jack out from under the car or in just really, really.
Brian (25:38.181)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (25:50.986)
hard things they would believe was going to happen because those kids had lost hope. They had lost hope in something good. So we as the adults can help grow that hope in a kid, but it starts first with us having hope for that child.
Brian (25:58.331)
Mm.
Brian (26:03.651)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Travis (26:06.807)
Yeah, I was going to say, love the word hope. And there's a great definition that what you're saying reminds me too of it is that hope sees beyond things. So there's this ability and hope to see not just what we see in front of us and all the obstacles, but there is another story, a trajectory over this obstacle. And I think that's a lot of the work that you're helping illuminate. So yeah.
Kim Botto (26:23.352)
Yes.
yes, yes, absolutely. yeah, their story's not over.
Travis (26:31.371)
Yeah. Well, and, so sort of as a pivot point to the next thing that a next sphere of huge influence you're having is your own podcast and, definitely some awesome topics, checked it out and some of the guests you've had on really, really relevant stuff. So, it's called every child belongs, which as Brian alluded to, obviously resonates in the synergy of America's kids belong. Tell us more about that podcast and, you know, just kind of the role it's also playing in your mission for seeing change.
Kim Botto (26:52.32)
Right, right.
Kim Botto (27:01.106)
I I love it because I get to learn every time I talk to somebody I learn. And the purpose is there are, we want to raise awareness and part of the way you raise awareness is put people in close proximity, but people might not have people in their everyday life that they can be in proximity to. So the hope is that through the podcast, they get in close proximity to people who have like adults who are autistic or parents who've adopted
who's adopted kids or foster parents. We also have professionals on there who give us some of the science, which then increases empathy. Not sympathy or pity, but empathy. Because if we have empathy for somebody, we will respond to them differently. So it's a wide variety of people, but it's all pointing to how can we help create spaces for every kid.
Brian (27:40.729)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (27:58.412)
to belong and actually it's not just to belong. We don't want to just come in and have a seat. We want them to be able to participate, to be able to contribute, to care for others while others are caring for them. And so that's what the hope is through the podcast, through a wide variety of guests.
Travis (28:16.703)
And if we go back for a second, because we're kind of also hovering on words here, I think that I like is, is belonging, you know, that's, that's a key part of kind of what you're doing and kind of that's part of a point or a sign post. Explain this to like belonging isn't, isn't really about fitting in. Like we can try, that's, that's a whole different thing that, you know, we try to fit things in. So can you elaborate of, kind of even just the vision, really the difference between belonging
Kim Botto (28:19.181)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Travis (28:46.153)
and versus trying to just kind of fit in, you know.
Kim Botto (28:48.43)
Oh, Travis, that's good. Yes, we do. We think, the kid belongs. He's here. He's got the jersey on. But so often, order for, especially a kid who has a really hard story, in order for them to feel like they belong, they feel like they can't be fully who they are. They can't share the hard parts of their story. You I always say, if we want to be a safe place for kids, then we have to be a safe place for them to bring the hard parts of their story. And...
Brian (28:50.491)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (29:16.532)
So in order for them to belong, they can come in and just the amazing way that they are created and be themselves. And we may need to establish some boundaries and maybe do some redos on some things, but we want them to be fully who they are and be able to contribute. Well, one thing I like to say is find their place, their people and their purpose. And so if you truly belong,
Brian (29:16.717)
Ahem.
Brian (29:40.859)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (29:44.056)
then you do go, yeah, this is my place and these are my people here and I know what I'm here for. Like I'm the funny one or I'm the nurturing one or I'm the helper or I'm the one that knows math. So I help all the people who don't. And so many kids, especially kids with hard stories, that's what their identity becomes. They are their hard story. And that's not, that's not belonging. And there's so much more than that.
Brian (29:48.815)
Hmm.
Brian (29:58.427)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (30:12.097)
Yeah.
Travis (30:14.327)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (30:14.412)
and their hard story, I wish it had never happened to them.
But we have to be a place where they can talk and process.
Travis (30:23.627)
Hmm. so good.
Brian (30:24.995)
Yeah, yeah. So Kim, if I understand right, then you not only helped your own church, equipped your own church to be a place where every child can belong, but you help equip other churches, is that correct? And so I'm curious. mean, you quoted the Barna study where 97 % of church leaders think, yeah, we're a life way. Yeah, that we're great. We're doing great. And then the
Kim Botto (30:39.234)
Yes, yes.
Kim Botto (30:46.37)
Life way, yeah.
Right, thumbs up.
Travis (30:50.647)
Hahaha
Brian (30:52.291)
Yeah, and the families who are receiving that greatness are like not so great. So I'm curious. mean, first of all, like when you go to other churches, I what's the reception to what you're saying? What has it been like? Are they embracing it? Are they resistant? I guess I guess the ones you're getting invited to are are. But there's others who have have no interest in what you're saying, but.
Kim Botto (30:55.758)
Alright.
Travis (30:57.58)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (31:17.836)
Right, right. The ones that are inviting me in and paying for me, they're embracing it. But also I'll say there will be some people who are there who will question some of the things. They'll say, they need to know how to behave in the Lord's house. And I'm going, well, for one, do they even know who the Lord is? And for two, like, so.
Travis (31:18.519)
Ha
Brian (31:21.593)
Hehehehehe
Brian (31:33.627)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (31:43.81)
What exactly is this unwritten rule for how we behave in the Lord's house? So yeah, for the ones who invited me, and they're typically very receptive, I though I'm in a lot of groups with kids ministry people and student ministry people, and there are still a lot of people out there that are just going, they just need to behave. You need stricter discipline, you need time out, you need people who are still using that antiquated.
Brian (32:05.349)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (32:13.55)
Three strikes you're out, which is, okay, a kid does something that doesn't meet expectations and it's like you warn them and then you make them sit in the corner or somewhere other than with the kids and then you send them to the parents. And I'm like, when they tell me that, going, so where's the training in that? Discipleship is training. where is the conversation happening where you're helping the kid understand what they did that was in it?
Brian (32:19.023)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Travis (32:35.84)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (32:41.262)
appropriate and then you're giving them new skills and it's just not there. So we're still, I think the church, there are places where we have some really old school thinking that kids just need to behave.
Travis (32:52.406)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brian (32:56.987)
Is there when I'm just curious, I mean, if when you're training equipping a church, is there a moment where you see light bulbs go on? You say something and all of a sudden you're seeing people nod and.
Kim Botto (33:13.986)
Yeah, I mean, it depends, because I train on different content. I think that Karen, Dr. Karen Purvis, quote, behavior is the language of children who have lost their voice. That's a big one. Dr. Ross Green, where he talks about children do well if they can. In other words, if they're, I mean, he's a professional, he's smart, he's got a whole bunch of degrees, he's worked with bazillion kids.
Brian (33:25.59)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Travis (33:25.643)
Hmm, that's a great one.
Brian (33:40.251)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (33:42.048)
And he's telling us they're doing the best they can. So if they're not doing what we want, then it's up to us to help them. Those things, find a lot of the stats and the stories and the science, the brain science will help them go, I'll tell you one thing, this blows people's minds, is the whole illustration of the brain using the meerkat, the elephant, and the owl to describe the brain and talk about when a kid is dysregulated.
Travis (33:48.087)
Mmm.
Brian (33:48.185)
Hmm
Brian (33:55.599)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (34:10.306)
the thinking part of their brain is gone. That really lights people up because that is scientific evidence that when a kid acts like he's not thinking, he actually isn't thinking because the blood flow is going to the fight flight part of his brain rather than the thinking part of his brain. That part's gone offline. So that's a big one. But I will say another thing that where I see people go,
Brian (34:12.453)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (34:26.656)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (34:29.153)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (34:39.68)
It's just some of the simple strategies. Like connect before you correct. Or talking about asking them how do you feel when you walk into a place and you don't know what's coming next? Like are they gonna have dinner or are they not? Like are we gonna sit down? Is it gonna be buffet? Like how long is this gonna last? It makes you feel anxious and then sometimes that will affect your ability to engage. When they start hearing that, then all of sudden, like having the visual schedules on the wall makes sense.
Travis (34:41.783)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (34:44.089)
Yeah.
Travis (34:44.267)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (34:56.78)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:07.803)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (35:08.216)
going, yes, I can see how that helps. I was talking to a camp of elementary all through high school. And we talked in there going, we've never thought about having visual schedules. So the next day they were sending me pictures of visual schedules they were creating to put around camps so kids know what's coming next. So those are just a few of the things that get people fired up.
Travis (35:08.267)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (35:32.119)
And I love what you said too, just, a lot of are really simple. Once you just understand like, and there are things that we take for granted. My wife and our house parents at a group home and one of the greatest tools ever was what you've already said was what we called pre-teaching transition times. Even if you're in high school, Hey, this is the next thing we're doing. We're doing this. This is what's going to happen next. And sort of just that, you know, kind of laying out the next thing and just how that alone, you could just see the calming, you know,
Kim Botto (35:35.278)
Great.
Kim Botto (35:40.437)
Mm.
Kim Botto (35:57.634)
Right.
Right, right.
Brian (36:01.019)
Yeah, that's so good. have a former youth in our life who is an adult. one way he puts it is I don't even like good surprises. Like I just don't like surprises at all. And so so if people get listening, like just take this lesson and say, really work hard on spelling out what kids can expect, you know, just expectations. And lots of people like that. I have I have a highly.
Kim Botto (36:11.052)
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Travis (36:12.599)
Mmm, yep.
Brian (36:30.305)
tolerance for ambiguity. My staff hates that. So they want, they don't want ambiguous. They want clarity. They want to know what's coming. So yeah, that's so good.
Kim Botto (36:33.826)
yeah! yes!
Travis (36:34.091)
Ha ha ha.
Travis (36:38.999)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like you said, especially people, kids coming from trauma that that was what they've lived in is what's around the corner. What's happened next? Am I going home? Am I, you know, just like what's going to be the next thing? And so like anything, even in a really safe, calm setting that still mimics some of that, you know, uncertainty or anxiety producing like stuff. It's like, if we can mitigate some of that stuff. So
Kim Botto (36:40.226)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian (36:59.931)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (37:01.784)
Right.
Well, and the Grim Cackler Goldfish example I gave is a real life example. so something as simple as that, like if we do make the change and the kids are having a hard time with it, then going back, and it's not up to us to decide whether or not that's a big deal or not. If it's a big deal to the kid, it's a big deal. And then we need to figure it out. And then what we did is we gradually, and actually, we ended up keeping them both because we're like, this isn't worth it.
Brian (37:25.605)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (37:32.866)
this isn't worth it. And there's probably other kids that are having a hard time too.
Brian (37:33.051)
Yeah. Well, Kim, I love having you with us and I love it that when we have old pros like you who just tons of wisdom, experientially, exponentially. Yes. Yes. Yes. We have a question. We love asking our guests that end out our podcast. So how would you finish this sentence?
Travis (37:36.279)
Ha
Kim Botto (37:45.112)
Hey, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, Brian.
Travis (37:46.679)
Pro is pro experientially sages
Brian (38:01.881)
what kids in foster care really need is...
Kim Botto (38:09.176)
Can I do like multiple words? I don't have to just do one word. Safe adults who aren't easily offended who believe in the child.
Brian (38:10.747)
Yes, yes, yes.
Travis (38:11.922)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (38:18.203)
Mm.
Brian (38:21.669)
Wow, that is very thoughtful. Safe adults who aren't easily offended who believe in the child.
Kim Botto (38:29.506)
Yeah, because I've found when we take offense, we're not in a position to help the kid. And I also volunteer at a residential treatment center for teenage girls. And the language can be pretty foul sometimes. They're not doing it.
Travis (38:29.611)
Wow, that's, my God.
Brian (38:31.268)
Yeah.
Brian (38:49.039)
Mm-hmm. yeah.
Kim Botto (38:53.474)
I mean, when we take offense at it, then we miss the message that the child is communicating to us. And for some kids, profanity is actually a step in the right direction because they're not punching people out anymore. Instead, they're yelling expletives. And so then we work again. But yeah, I think that taking offense is a big deal. And I see it in churches where it's like, I've done all this work to create this amazing thing and they ruined it. They ruined it for me. I'm like,
Brian (38:57.042)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (38:57.835)
Alright.
Travis (39:04.567)
Yeah, that's so true.
Brian (39:06.971)
Right, Yeah.
Kim Botto (39:22.21)
They did not wake up saying, I'm going to go in and ruin Mr. Brian's large group. There's something going on with them that we need to help care for them.
Brian (39:29.859)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's so good.
Travis (39:32.887)
That line was you talk, because the question is what kids in foster really need is. And that is the best definition of a foster parent I've ever heard. If you put it in that way, you know, because so that's, that's what they really need is a foster parent as you described. my God. Well, it.
Kim Botto (39:43.23)
Brian (39:44.815)
Uh-huh.
Brian (39:49.635)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (39:49.742)
I forget what I said. What? my gosh, we need to come back and listen.
Travis (39:55.573)
Well, the two things I took away were just, you know, that not someone is not easily offended and believes in the child and the kid. I those two things alone.
Kim Botto (40:02.54)
Yes, yes.
Brian (40:05.027)
Yeah, yeah, so good. Well, Kim, how can our listeners follow you and learn more from what you're sharing?
Kim Botto (40:15.328)
Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at Kim Botto, Facebook it's Kim and then D like David Botto. And then also I have a website, kimbotto.com. And there's all kinds of different ways for people to get involved. I'm getting ready to start a book club for parents going through the book. I also meet once a month with kids ministry leaders.
Brian (40:31.386)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Kim Botto (40:40.086)
And the group has gotten so large that now we have three different sessions in a month that you can attend. And the whole purpose of it is what can we do in our church environments in order to equip our teams to be safe people for every single kid that walks in our building? So we talk about real life challenges and then we develop tools to help them. And it's all, I mean, the book's not free, but.
Brian (40:44.933)
Wow.
Brian (40:56.667)
So good.
Kim Botto (41:05.378)
And the book isn't a requirement to attend any of these things either. But everything else is free because I just believe, I believe in these kids and they need adults who believe in them. So that's why I'm doing this work.
Brian (41:18.415)
That's so good and thank you for all those resources and the book. It reminds me, said, you don't have to read the book. When one of my daughters was in high school, she was in the summer, starting to read the book, the kite runner. And I said, why are you reading that? I know you did a book report on it, you know, this spring. And she goes, well, I didn't read the book. So everyone joined Kim's.
Kim Botto (41:42.062)
That's right!
Travis (41:42.411)
Hahaha
Brian (41:46.135)
book reading group, you don't even have to read the book. Well, Kim, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your words of wisdom and I hope more churches are receptive to what you're sharing.
Travis (41:46.241)
Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha.
Kim Botto (41:48.428)
That's right, don't have to read the book. Thank you guys.
Kim Botto (42:01.218)
Yeah, and thank you for what you guys do. You are raising awareness in huge, gigantic ways across the nation.
Brian (42:08.516)
Thank you. All right. Thank you. God bless. Bye.
Travis (42:09.665)
Thanks Cam.
Kim Botto (42:13.23)
See ya.