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The Making it in Melbourne podcast series brings you conversations with Melbourne migrant entrepreneurs who are reshaping our city’s business landscape.
In this series, we hear the stories of migrant startup founders sharing how their cultural backgrounds have shaped their entrepreneurial journeys, offering insights, lessons, and tips for aspiring entrepreneurs.
From creative and social innovations, artificial intelligence, mental health, and people changing careers, these are the stories of people who journeyed across borders to Melbourne, to build something extraordinary.
This podcast series is brought to you by the City of Melbourne. Follow us at @cityofmelbourne across Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin and X.
We support migrant business founders to incubate ideas in our city through grants, specialised programs and connecting with the local community. Find out about upcoming opportunities at www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/startups-and-innovation
I'm Jeannette Chia, and this is Making It in Melbourne. My guest today is Alvin Hermanto, the founder of Relab. They're a product design and [00:24:00] creative agency helping to build solutions for some of the biggest brands in Australia. Alvin struck me with his really thoughtful approach to building business, but also the fact that he challenges himself to go outside his comfort zone in so many ways.
He's got a quiet burning ambition, as well as a real balance of family life that you'll hear during the conversation. This is how Alvin Hermanto is making it in Melbourne
I am here in the studio with Alvin Hermanto, the founder of Relab, and I'm really excited to hear your story. And, and let's start at the start, where good stories begin. Um, you came to Melbourne from Indonesia for the final year of your design degree, and you'd actually never been to Australia before. Why did you choose Melbourne?
Like, what were you expecting when you, when you arrived here?
Alvin Hermanto: Well, after high sc- I didn't actually finish high school in Indonesia. Um, but, uh, I went to Malaysia [00:25:00] instead for my foundation year. So I was in Malaysia for about three years before moving to Australia. Um, it was a twinning program with Curtin University, so the university that, uh, I was in in Malaysia is called Lim Kok Wing.
They had a twinning program with Curtin University in Perth. I didn't wanna go to Perth. I really wanted to go to Melbourne because of ... I, I've heard good stories about Melbourne and all of that stuff. Um, so I wanted to come to Melbourne. The option was between Swinburne or RMIT. I've decided to go to Swinburne because it had a better website at that time.
A pretty simple- The
Jeanette Chia: power of good user experience design. That's
Alvin Hermanto: right.
Jeanette Chia: And so when you arrived here, I guess, you know, you, you've, you've had this plan to come to Melbourne. You, you even made your university choice in Malaysia to get here. Tell me about, um, when you first arrived and started, I guess, getting into the working environment and the cultural environment.
Was there anything that happened for you in terms of the way that you felt about yourself and fitting into the culture?
Alvin Hermanto: Um, [00:26:00] yeah. Well, I think the first experience was when I was in uni, um, the first time I came to class at Swinburne, it felt completely different Almost off the bat to my experience what it was like in Malaysia.
Um, and, um, at that time I was walking into class, uh, first day. I was late and, um, I could see... Like, this was a design studio class with big tables and groups set up. Um, I could see in the corner of my eye there's one big table full of Asian students, and I feel like m- my body's gravitating towards that table.
Just because I felt like, okay, that's comfort zone. But I pushed myself so hard to resist to go to that table and go to the other ones, which was local students. Um, and I think that theme became, uh, consistent throughout my career as well, especially, you know, when I was a fresh graduate. Uh, I'd always find myself in situations where, um, I feel like I'm the odd one out.
Um, and so [00:27:00] culturally, uh, I would shy away from situations like that. But I think there's something deep inside me that wanted to counter that, whatever that, um, energy is. And so I find myself doing that over and over again. It's almost like a flick of a switch that I go, "Okay, I gotta do something here."
Jeanette Chia: That's so interesting because I think what, you know, the way you- I'm hearing it is the p- the path of least resistance calls you because you're like, "There's a, a wide open, you know, opportunity here, but I'm actually going to deliberately make myself a bit uncomfortable- Mm ... um, and choose this other, this other path."
Now, does, do you think that that actually also relates a little bit to the way you found the working environment as an employee? So you were, you know, getting a job and actually being part of somebody else's company felt like the path less traveled, and then you chose the other one?
Alvin Hermanto: Um, that's a good question.
I mean, personally, I've always wanted to have something on my own. I've always had an idea of- What a good workflow is like. I've always had a good idea, uh, uh, an idea as to like what it should be. Um, but, you [00:28:00] know, after uni, obviously I just wanted to find a job, and so I started finding myself working as a designer at that time and I wasn't a very good employee as well, and I think it's because of that point that I made previously where I've always had an idea of how to do things or what I believe it should be like, but I didn't find that fulfillment throughout my career.
And so that, that made me think about that dream that I, uh, I've always had when I was younger, which was to start my own business in design, that sort of thing. Um, and so, um, yeah, I think the path to least resistance was probably just more of a, you know, um, not, I wouldn't say easy, but just the, it's just, uh, almost like an obvious thing to do, especially as an immigrant with, you know, my parents, that sort of thing.
It felt like, okay, you'd better just find a good job, a safe one. And so I think just safety was a, was a thing. But once I've, once I'm in it, I feel like there's [00:29:00] something in me that wanted to do something more.
Jeanette Chia: I really like the way you describe following that dream from when you were young and even knowing inhe- inherently that you wanted to have your own thing.
Yeah. And so you actually ended up starting your own business just five years after graduating. Mm-hmm. What was it that, you know, made you, uh, get that first client? How did you actually lock down that first piece of business and, uh, and make it a reality?
Alvin Hermanto: Um, I did that, uh, step by step as well. So when I wanted to start my own business, what I did was I've looked for a full-time, uh, a part-time job first, which was
'Cause I knew my business was going to be something in design or it had something to do with design and I didn't wanna work for another design studio or an agency. So I was looking for a part-time job that was not that, and I end up, um, in marketing for a not-for-profit organization, and I was doing that as a part-time thing with the intention of having a little bit more time to focus on my business.
Um, and when I interviewed [00:30:00] for that part-time role, I already told my manager that I had this small business that I'm trying to start, but I need a job and, like, that's why I'm here. So I was trying to be very transparent and honest to her as well. Um, and so yeah, the steps that I took was that, uh, I was trying to find a part-time job.
Um, long story short, uh, when I decided to go full-time in my own business, that not-for-profit organization became my first retainer client at that time, and I think that was because of that transparency that I brought from the beginning and I was just being very open about my intention, and I did my job well as well, that the bridge never burnt, you know?
Mm-hmm. Um, and I just end up, you know, continuing that relationship, that they end up being my, one of my first, uh, client-
Jeanette Chia: I think that's a, such a good lesson for people who maybe think that you have to make some big dramatic exit or- Mm ... a big call to leave your, leave your job and start a business. I think this gradual step-by-step kind of approach is, there's so much merit to it, [00:31:00] and you strike me as someone who's really deliberate in your choices.
Can you now actually tell me about Relab? So I understand it's a product strategy, a design consultancy, and it's gone through a few different iterations and identities as well. Tell me all about what it does.
Alvin Hermanto: That's right. Um, I'd like to see it being in the third cycle of what it does in terms of positioning who it serves or what the product or offer is, that sort of thing.
Um, it started off being a small design studio, and that's what I've dreamt of when I was younger as well. Um, so I've done that for probably about two or three years, uh, since the beginning, uh, until I got my first enterprise client, and then we became more and more of a specialist in UI and UX. And that's when I started to say no to logo design work, branding, photography, Alvin hopping on a helicopter to take aerial shots-
that sort of thing. I'm like, "No, no, I don't do that anymore." I bet that's fun. That, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a great experience. Um, and so we became more of a UI/UX [00:32:00] design specialist. That would be the second cycle. And then about four years ago, um, I've decided to focus on the strategy part of the project or the discovery part of the project because I felt like that was where I brought the most value, um, at that time.
And so I've intentionally redesigned the business to focus on that area only. And so what we are today is a, um, product strategist, digital product. So we help our clients understand their roadmap, break it down into manageable chunks of work, make sure that they know where to invest their money when it comes to their digital assets so that they don't burn their budget basically.
Jeanette Chia: You've really had this amazing iteration and I guess following the market and also your passions. So- Mm ... uh, that's a, that's a really interesting way of looking at a business cycle, those three different chapters. Mm. I think sometimes as entrepreneurs we think you have to nail one thing and keep going, but it sounds like you've followed the market and followed what your [00:33:00] customers are looking for.
Now, I want to, I wanna talk a little bit about your cultural background and how this has actually influenced the way that you run Relab. So you have an Indonesian background, and are there any particular philosophies around customer service and quality that have shaped the way you work with clients?
Alvin Hermanto: Mm.
I'm half Indonesian, half Filipino.
Jeanette Chia: Okay.
Alvin Hermanto: So my mom's Filipino, my dad's Indonesian, and they met in the Philippines, uh, when my dad was studying for his post- postgraduate. Um, in terms of influence, I think, um- It's just serving people is a big thing, and I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but I would, I'd probably think so if I really think about it, um, just because of my experiences, I guess, flying in, you know, Indonesian airlines or Singapore Airlines and all that.
Jeanette Chia: Mm-hmm.
Alvin Hermanto: Um, it would just get real- You're treated as a king, uh, when you're a customer. It felt re- very much like that, and I think that's influenced me a lot as well in terms of how I serve my clients or how I'd, [00:34:00] I'd benchmark our, uh, quality of service.
Jeanette Chia: They really embrace that hospitality mindset of- Mm
customer comes first, customer central.
Alvin Hermanto: That's right.
Jeanette Chia: Yeah, great. And did you, um, did you ever have an example of a time where you really had to go above and beyond to make sure that they felt like king?
Alvin Hermanto: Absolutely. Um, especially at the, uh, early days of my business, ReLab. Um, I've always had this mantra about speed, quality, and service, and I believe the reason why we got to one, one space or, or a, a next level up is really just because we did our work quickly without compromising quality.
One of our first clients is, uh, the Country Road Group, w- the bigger ones, and the reason why we got them as an account was because we did small, you know, banner jobs at that time, and that was because their other agency couldn't do it because it was 23rd or 24th of December or something like that. And I said yes.
Um, so those are the things that I used to [00:35:00] do. Like, we used to do that. Um, but my perspective has changed so much these days in terms of what's, what matters and what m- what's, uh, not so important when it comes to that sort of thing.
Jeanette Chia: Well, it sounds like you're describing kind of the, the hustle mindset that you need to have at the very start of something- At the beginning
where you, you completely go out of your way to deliver for the client. Yep. And then as you get a bit more established, you can make more choices that, that suit you and your lifestyle and, and the business that you want to build. And also
Alvin Hermanto: just knowing who appreciates that more.
Jeanette Chia: Now, now Alvin, you also identify a bit as a natural introvert.
Mm-hmm. Uh, but you had to learn as you're building a business to network, pitch yourself differently here in Australia than you might have in, in, uh, in Indonesia or Malaysia. What did you learn along the way?
Alvin Hermanto: Um, I think it's- Very much about awareness, like knowing yourself, uh, w- like, what value you bring, um, what is it that you bring to the table in this group or this networking group or whatever it may be.
But I think it just starts [00:36:00] with you pushing yourself to go out there and actually present yourself with opportunities that allows you to talk about yourself and how you help people and the value that you bring a bit more. So I think for me, it's really just positioning myself in situations where I get to talk about that.
W- in my perspective, it's more about me helping people or them discovering themselves through, you know, sharing my journey and that sort of stuff. And I think, um, that helps me as an introvert because I've got an in- I guess, an intention behind it. I'm really bad with small talks. So I'm, I'm, I'm a lot more comfortable when I walk into a space and I know exactly what I'm about to deliver, um, as opposed to a, a party where I have to mingle and that sort of stuff without- Without knowing exactly what am I h- here for, that sort of thing.
Um, yeah.
Jeanette Chia: So no small talk on this podcast. Only deliberate, specific Deliberate ... deliberate, specific answers. Now, can you tell me s- about Relab? So let's get into the business- Mm ... and maybe give me an example of [00:37:00] who is a client currently, and what will you do for them? What problem are you solving for that customer?
Alvin Hermanto: Um, so an example of a client is, uh, Porsche Cars Australia. Um, and so what I did for them is basically run some planning programs. Um, within, say, two weeks of time, we get to an idea of what a lean roadmap might look like for their e-commerce website, specifically for aftermarket sales, and we also know exactly what the requirements are.
And from there, I help them prototype, which is what the website looks and feels like, um, that it ends up being a visual brief for the suppliers that would come in and pitch in their technology and solution. So it's very much business-led in terms of what- Uh, what we're doing and also user-focused. And then from there, um, we'll let the technology pitch in.
So instead of deciding on the solution, we decide on what the business wants to do or what the user needs first.
Jeanette Chia: I love that that's a [00:38:00] almost a bit of a full circle moment that you chose to go to a particular university because of a better website. And now here you are- ... designing great website experiences for Porsche Australia- Mm
as well as all of your other amazing customers. Mm. Now, I want to understand a little bit about your, the choices that you make when I guess you grow your team and when you choose which markets you're going to enter. Mm. Do you have a particular framework or, like, mental model that you choose to, to prioritize?
Alvin Hermanto: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I would focus on the low-hanging fruit normally, and the low-hanging fruit is things that we could test very, very easily, um, that requires the least amount of effort and money and resources and all that. But it still brings an impact, whether it's just learning or just an understanding of a market or a pattern, a signal.
Like we're just- So
Jeanette Chia: just those little bite-sized moments of-
Alvin Hermanto: Bite-sized signals ... can I get
Jeanette Chia: data and research? That's right. So those are
Alvin Hermanto: the projects that I... And typically in my engagement with clients, that's, that's what I'm more involved in because that sort of sets them up for the [00:39:00] major project, which is that big- Digital transformation- Mm-hmm
or whatever it may be. Um, so yeah, I would say from my point of view, it's focusing on those line- low-hanging fruit, the low-risk, high-impact type of stuff.
Jeanette Chia: I'm, I'm curious about the fact that you, you are building here in Melbourne- Yeah ... and has Melbourne been a good home for Relab? You know, what has the city offered you in terms of creating your business here?
Alvin Hermanto: 100%. Um, I mean, I wouldn't wanna be anywhere else other than Melbourne, um, I think. Um, and I think it's just the cultural aspect around it. Um, I feel like I'm surrounded by creativity as well in Melbourne. Um, I really like how... I mean, in my head, I've always felt like Melburnians are very friendly people.
Jeanette Chia: I still feel that way.
Alvin Hermanto: A- and I think that, that, um, that fuels me a lot as well. Um, I like the parks, I like the events that happens here, uh, from sports to- Mm ... cultural things, um, to concerts and all of that stuff. I, I feel like we've got [00:40:00] a lot of that that fuels my soul.
Jeanette Chia: Yes.
Alvin Hermanto: And I think that makes me a better person, and when I'm a better person, I feel like I'm a better entrepreneur as well.
Jeanette Chia: That's a really nice, I guess, ladder up because, you know, y- you're running a business that's inherently creative even though there's- Mm ... that technology side to it, and being surrounded by culture and- Mm ... um, and different kinds of things obviously adds to that.
Alvin Hermanto: Yeah.
Jeanette Chia: I'm curious about what happens when you actually bring Relab, um, back to Indonesia or to other parts of the world to do business there.
Is there any kind of reverse culture shock, or is there any kind of, like, things that, um, you're surprised about by bringing an Australian-founded business-
Alvin Hermanto: 100%. Okay Uh, uh, that's... It's happened recently as well 'cause I wanted to bring Relab and its offering to Indonesia, and I met a potential client which is a, a big company.
Uh, but I deal with big companies here too, and so I felt like I know how to handle this. Um, but apparently they have a completely different mindset in terms of who, you know, which supplier they wanted to deal with.
Jeanette Chia: [00:41:00] Mm-hmm.
Alvin Hermanto: Um, and so they, they'd rather deal with a one-stop shop type of firm, uh, or a consulting firm, like the big fours, for example.
And there's a very unique or a very, um, at that time I found funny reason why as well, it's because it's a risk mitigation thing. And so if they've dealt with, let's just say, you know, uh, PwC or something like that, and if the project fails or it goes pear-shape They're like, "You know, what else can we do?"
Like, "We've dealt with one of the bigger ones." That's right. No one ever got fired for hiring- No ... PwC or
Jeanette Chia: IBM, right? So I can totally understand that- Yeah ... sort of you're coming in
Alvin Hermanto: with a- And I think the specialization as well. Like, 'cause the thing that I do is very, it's very much a specialist thing, and it's very niche.
Uh, I didn't feel, I didn't feel like there's a, a big appreciation towards that, um, when I, when I'm trying to do that in Indonesia.
Jeanette Chia: Mm.
Alvin Hermanto: They'd rather deal with a generalist who can do everything for you.
Jeanette Chia: Oh, that's so interesting.
Alvin Hermanto: Mm.
Jeanette Chia: And now I'm interested, I'm curious about the fact that you did start your business fairly fresh out of [00:42:00] university.
Alvin Hermanto: Mm.
Jeanette Chia: Um, who was around you giving you advice, advising you at this point? Did you have support- Mm ... or were you really just focused on building a business the way that you had in your, in your mind? I
Alvin Hermanto: think it's just the demons in my head.
Jeanette Chia: Demons in your
Alvin Hermanto: head. Hopefully differently. Uh, uh, to be honest, Jeanette, I didn't, I didn't feel like there was anyone, because my family aren't, they're not business.
They're not in business. My dad works as an employee. Mm-hmm. My mom was a teacher. No one's in business. Um, and, uh, so I didn't really get that- Energy from the family. It was just within me. Uh, like I said, I feel like I always wanted to do things on my own terms, and I have this angst that, you know, like I could do things better.
Jeanette Chia: Okay.
Alvin Hermanto: So it's always from within, I feel. T-
Jeanette Chia: there's something, I think, when you're in ... when you're so motivated to build something and create something from scratch- Mm ... it means that you can leave your mark, you know, in a, in a particular way. Mm. And whether that's in the way that you work with your clients or the way that you bring up your employees- Mm
I think it's, it's [00:43:00] very important. But even though you didn't have anyone necessarily there for you at the start, you're now actually paying it forward. Uh, you're teaching at Monash University. You're mentoring in the Melbourne Accelerator Program- Mm ... and even the Future Founders Program at the State Library.
So what is ... Has this drawn you to teaching and mentoring others, this lack of support that you felt you had?
Alvin Hermanto: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, teaching is an interesting thing, 'cause I feel like I came across it by accident. We spoke about the YouTube channel that I had earlier, and I didn't know that the content was gonna end up being more me teaching about certain things.
Um, and that's when I felt that I actually enjoy doing this, and so I did more of that. But the more I teach or the more I talk about the things that I do or share my knowledge with others, I feel like I actually get better in my own craft as well. Um, and so I kept on doing it. Um, and in Monash, it's my second semester.
Uh, um, and I [00:44:00] feel like I've actually learned so much. Just being in that environment is so refreshing, and it actually makes me better as, as
Jeanette Chia: a business person. It's funny, when you teach someone else, you realize how much you actually know, right? Yeah. You're like, "Oh, hey."
Alvin Hermanto: Yeah. "
Jeanette Chia: I've actually got some experience here."
Now, uh, you know, in the spirit of giving advice and sharing and paying it forward, if you were going to give advice to someone who's just arrived in Melbourne, maybe they're ambitious, they've got talent, but they're a bit out of their comfort zone. Maybe they're an introvert. Hey, maybe we're talking to a young Alvin.
Yeah. What is the thing you'd most like them to know?
Alvin Hermanto: I think embracing the, like, the cultural capital that you have is very important. Uh, and I think that comes with awareness again, just knowing who you are, where you came from, sort of like your ori- origin story and what makes you unique, u- unique is very, very important because then I think you can bring that forward and highlight that as part of your, you know, networking or you getting to know more people for your business and that sort of stuff.
So I think that is [00:45:00] from your own cultural perspective, but also being very open to, you know, Australia and Melbourne and what Melbourne people has to offer, that sort of thing. I think just being curious and open-minded and really appreciating every single bit, um, will really, really help. And then I think the job is trying to connect those two or find those pockets of opportunities where you can bring who you are, um, you know, 'cause everyone, I believe everyone's special and they've always got something within them, um, to the right places and the right opportunities in Melbourne.
Jeanette Chia: Now, from choosing deliberately the different table to having this burning internal motivation of building your own thing and, and then being flexible and prioritizing based on life options and clients- Mm ... and now working with amazing clients around Australia and the world, it's very impressive and a pleasure to have this conversation with you, Alvin.
Alvin Hermanto: Oh, thanks for
Jeanette Chia: having
Alvin Hermanto: me. Thank you for being here today. Thank you, Jeanette.[00:46:00]