Paper Roses Part 2 - Debbie Show - True Story - Thriller - Historical Fiction Book

We're back to wrap up Paper Roses by debut indie author Debbie Show, and she did not disappoint. In Part 2, we cover the second half of this semi-autobiographical slice-of-life novel: betrayal, financial fraud, ethical spirals, forgiveness, and one of the most satisfying endings we've seen from a first-time author.

We also explore why writing is a powerful tool for processing trauma. Slava shares an update on his autobiographical horror short story, and we discuss how slowing down to write or journal can change how you see your own story.

Tune in, then go show Debbie some love — leave her a review on Amazon, Audible, or Spotify. Next week, she joins us live, so drop your questions in the comments!

ABOUT THE BOOK
When Abigail Jones learns of her sister Nikki’s third arrest, she’s pulled into a spiral of questions: Was it fate, family, or something buried even deeper? As Abigail begins to piece together the past, she uncovers a trail of silence and survival that stretches across continents and generations.

From a 1940s Moroccan household where a young maid bears witness to the origins of a generational wound, to the sun-washed suburbs of 1970s California, and finally to 2023—told through podcast transcripts, court documents, and splintered memory—Paper Roses follows Abigail’s search for answers, her confrontation with the sister she thought she knew, and her reckoning with a legacy neither of them could escape.

A haunting story of loyalty, silence, and the cost of breaking free, Paper Roses is perfect for readers of The Vanishing Half, Little Fires Everywhere, and The Paper Palace.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Author Debby Show is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and School Psychologist based in California. With years of experience working with individuals and families, she brings a deep understanding of human behavior, relationships, and generational dynamics to her fiction.
Though Paper Roses is her debut novel, Debby has honed her craft through coaching, writing workshops, and a lifelong passion for storytelling. Inspired by real history and intimate truths, her work explores how the past shapes who we become.

She also happens to be the sister of a rather infamous public figure—a detail that has made family gatherings interesting, to say the least. While this is a work of fiction, it draws inspiration from real-life experiences. That said, the spotlight in this story belongs to the generations of women whose legacies are woven across time.

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Reading is the ultimate side quest. Side Quest is a casual book club podcast full of literary adventures. Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading, life, history, belief systems, and more. Explore world-building, characters, and story development, and share some laughs along the way.

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What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

It was fresh reed, it was a palate cleanser like you said, and she blew my expectations out of the water. Forgiveness doesn't mean that what they did was justified, and I think this is the thing that modern society has lost. Your bullshit does not give you the right to treat others, especially those in your care, like garbage.

Welcome back SideQuesters to part two of Paper Roses, written by Debbie Show, and we are excited to wrap this up. Next week we have her coming on the episode to talk with us. If you haven't already, go check out the author interview that dropped earlier in our series here.

We got to sit down and chat with her before we talked about the book. Slava made some funny and yet embarrassing comments to her about her book because we hadn't read it yet, which made me laugh. It'll probably make you laugh, so please go enjoy that with me.

But last week we talked about the first half of this book and the different points of view, how we look at Abigail's point of view, we look at Yasmina's, and we also look briefly at the father figure too. This week we'll... Oh, is it Hugh? Right, yeah, Hugh. Two, Hugh.

This week we'll be covering the second half of it. We'll be wrapping up the book so everything's on the table here, and then we'll follow up with Debbie next week. Overall, my rating for this book is... It's an 8 out of 10.

First-time author. She's really solid. This was a great palate cleanser for me because we read a lot of fantasy, sci-fi, speculative fiction, horror.

This was slice of life. I really, really loved it. It made me... Well, partially because we've already had a conversation with the author, and so this is what I want you guys to experience as well.

You've had a conversation with her too, right? And so then when you read it, you can go, man, which parts of this is real? Which parts of this is not real? Which parts of this is her processing? And you can kind of connect with it at a different level that you can't get when you read Roadside Picnic because it's not real, right? So if you need a palate cleanser and you read a lot of stuff that we read that's fiction and fantasy and just off the wall, I highly recommend Paper Roses. Support Debbie's show. Indie author.

First-time author. And frankly, her exercise... And then I'll let you talk, Slava, I promise. Her exercise of processing her life through writing, right? Incredible.

Because it doesn't really matter if it's all fact or all fiction or a mishmash in between, which we know it is. The idea that she used it to say, hey, I'm going to rewrite this story for myself. There's power here.

And I can't wait to talk with her about that when she's on the show next week. Slava, what's your rating? I gave it an 8 out of 10. Great power.

I'm going to go with you. 8 out of 10. First-time author.

Indie author. All the words you used. Fantastic.

I had some reservations. Not like I thought it was going to be horrible. Yeah.

But quite honestly, I had some reservations because, well, this is a professional. She's a therapist. And yes, she's wrote technical writing.

And of course, as I said last time, that probably helped her write better. But I was like, all right, it'll be fine. It won't be mind-blowing.

But it was the opposite. I think it was a fresh read. It was a palate cleanser, like you said.

And she blew my expectations out of the water. It was really well done. I enjoyed the ending.

I enjoyed the different ups and downs of each character, Yasmina and her, Abigail in the book. It was great. And the ending was done well.

First-time authors often miss the landing, like too often. Even in books that get published, even the books that get acclaimed, authors often miss the landing. It's just a fact of life.

I don't think she did. I think she got the ending done well. She ended the book well.

And to your other point that you made, and it's personal to me, it's processing your life through writing. The short story that people have heard about already, I have been working on it intently for the past three weeks, more so than what I mentioned in the previous episode. Because I went back through my notes, and I was like, wait a minute.

I worked on it much harder than I said I did in that episode, especially the last three weeks, and especially the last week since this recording. I was like, oh, wow, I put a lot of work in it. And I rewrote stuff, and I reordered the action, some of the events, and I put a new introduction to it over the last two days.

And a lot of it is autobiographical, especially the inciting incident, which happens right away. In the first chapter, in the first two paragraphs, the inciting incident happens. And some of it's fiction, some of it's actually word for word, step by step, action by action of what happened that night to me as a kid.

And so processing it, and actually being able to see the reason, the impetus, for lack of a better term, I guess reason is a better one, for my mom's actions that night. It forced me to get into the villain's head. And it was cathartic.

It was very cathartic, because I walked away from it like, holy cow, wow, this is a thing that happened to a 10-year-old boy. And this is a horrible thing. One of my beta readers said he had a hard time finishing it, because he knew it was real.

And having me tell the story in bits and pieces to him, literally in maybe 15 sentences, and then him reading two chapters of it with, sure, some creative, you know, license, he said he had a hard time finishing it. So cathartic for me, like to just to close your point, and we can move on into the book. Processing trauma, or good things in your life through writing, is a fantastic exercise.

It will help you deal with it, process it, be thankful for the good things. It's just a wonderful thing to do. So the reason that is, and because we're on the topic, I want to sit here for just a second.

Sure. In our side quest. The reason that this is helpful, and I encourage, this is why I always tell people, you need a journal.

You're like, well, I'm not really a journalist. Yeah, because you haven't done it. But here's the thing.

Slowing down to journal and think about your life actually helps you process your life and reframe it. You don't have to be an author or a novelist, but by slowing down and writing, hey, this is what hurt me. And then you go, actually, I wasn't hurt.

I was angry. And you start to put, you write down an emotion, you can scratch it off and go, that's not true. I wasn't hurt.

I was angry. Why was I angry? I was angry because they didn't buy me gifts. Why was I angry? Because they weren't buying me gifts.

And you actually sit and you think and you process and you reframe the situation. Okay. You're talking about your 10, right? Well, 40 something year old Slava looking back on it can go, well, if I was an adult, I probably would've done the same thing.

10 year old Slava doesn't know that because he's 10. Right. But now, because you're writing it, it gives you the opportunity to go, oh, maybe I can let go of some of this pain, hurt, whatever.

Like she wasn't trying to hurt me. She was just in the moment trying to help me, save me, get me out of the way of danger, whatever. No, she was trying to hurt me.

I haven't read the story, so I don't know. Yeah. She was trying to hurt me.

But your point stands. Your point stands. The point stands.

It's just a bad example, right? Because I haven't read your story. So the same thing happens with psychologists. They'll sit down with someone and they'll say, hey, tell me the trauma, tell me whatever, they'll explain it.

And then subsequent sessions, they'll go through and go, hey, you know that when you got touched when you were six by a seven year old, right? Do you think that maybe they were just a curious, it doesn't justify what happened, but do you think that maybe they were just a curious kid instead of like if an adult did it, right? And they reframe it and they ask the question where it's like, is it possible that this could have been the case? Or that he was abused too, that he was doing what came naturally in his little head. There's a dozen things. And so it's like, but that's the reframing that happens.

And really all that writing helps us do, it's like when we smoke cigars, right? It's like, it causes us to slow down, which then lets our mind engage with like, oh, oh, this could have been different. Oh, maybe it was a little different here. Or you uncover like, no, this person was actually trying to hurt me.

Objectively looking back, whatever, but it still lets you process it. And you go, you know what? I get it. Letting it go, moving on or whatever.

And you don't have to hold onto stuff that you don't need to hold onto. And I think that that's what Debbie did here with her book. She had a really dramatic upbringing.

We see, and I'm just going to take it kind of all as gospel truth until she tells me otherwise. I know it's not, but because she wrote it as a catharsis, as a processing, I'm just going to say that it is. And we know that, and she told us in the author episode, that she wrote Abigail differently than how she actually acted.

Because she gets to control how Abigail responds. And when we're in the moment with our inexperience, we're not always like, oh, well, I'm going to do the correct thing. I'm going to stand up for myself.

I'm going to like, well, yeah, didn't do that. Funny you should say that because in my rewrite over the last three weeks, and specifically over the last week or so, I gave Ed, that's the name of the main character, I gave Ed more power and autonomy than I did before. Because the first writing of it started in a different place.

And then over the last seven years, I rewrote and then rehashed ideas and gave him different tasks before we even got to the inciting incident. All that was erased this time around. And I rewrote him, but I wrote him almost like mute and unable to deal with anything.

He's constantly escaping from something. And I'm like, oh, that's not it. Because when I was a kid, I wasn't that.

I argued, I fought back. I was walking around with my middle finger, like I've mentioned a couple times to everybody. I was not a flighty kid.

I was a fighty kid. Haha. I fought more than I flew.

So I was like, Ed can't be, this is gonna be a cathartic thing. If I'm gonna rewrite my story, and actually get my author it scratched, I have to make it more true. But I also want to give the arc for this character.

I want it to be more real. I want it to be more for people to be able to relate more. I want this kid to not be a complete washcloth and also not be what I was when I was a kid.

I wanted to make it more grounded. So it's, you know, whatever that means. So I rewrote him with more autonomy, him actually being able to think through things, and not necessarily, you know, point the middle finger at anybody proverbially or in real life.

But give him chances for rebellion, that give him a sense of control in a very chaotic situation. And I already have the ending, and I won't say it to anybody until it's done. I am keeping it purposefully vague from even all the beta readers.

So I won't, until it's complete, nobody will know, because I want it to be a surprise. And I want it to be the journey for the character to be more visceral for the reader. And I'm, you know what, let's leave it at that, because I don't, I'm going to start talking and rambling like I normally do.

And I'm going to give it out unintentionally. Do you know how you want your character to grow? Yes. Okay, for the ending, you know, like, you know where he starts.

You've already said that. And you know where you want him to be like, Oh, hey, here's the revelations, or here's the minor changes, or whatever. Yeah, it's a horror book.

So it's not going to be flowery, everything's wrapped up nicely. And, you know, he gets a new mama, and they all go to the ice cream shop together. But he is going to grow.

And I want it to end realistically within the horror genre. And I want him to grow, as I've just said, but I don't want it to be buttoned up, because it's not going to be the happiest of endings. It's not going to be necessarily the saddest of endings.

But it is going to be natural for the story, the feeling of the story, the world that I'm that I've built. So the town that he's in, is going to be a natural outcome of what is happening to him and his mother. Does it happen at 29 Neibolt Street? Close enough.

Yeah, it's a different street. But I did take I will I will spoil this. I did take inspiration from Derry, because the town itself in my book has is not a character the way Derry was a character.

It's a lot more subdued. But with a point I'm trying to make with my book, is that the surroundings matter. And because it's horror, and supernatural, I wanted to give something that Ed can't control, because with his new autonomy, he can't control his mom.

And in the book, and in real life, he had an opportunity to go to a foster home and escape this, the situation that he's in, he didn't. And I want it to be an external force, not just his little weakness and his, you know, inability to think like the way I wrote him before, to think clearly. So it is it is the town does play a big role in it.

And it is inspired by my reading and rereading of it, because I felt in that book, more than just Pennywise, who's the real villain, the town itself and the way they in the way they are interacting with each other, all the characters and the way the town kind of participates in the evil that happens and lets Pennywise do his thing every 27 years. I wanted I don't want to I don't want to steal from King and I want to even as the pastiche I didn't want to do it. But I want the town to play a role in it.

And that was inspired by what I read in King, King's work. Because that's also a needful things to some extent, there is good parts of needful things where King writes that the town and small town culture, and some of the sentiments that people hold really near and dear in small towns contributes to some of the dysfunction that happens in needful things and how those characters fight with each other, go after each other. And if you read needful things, know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you haven't check it out. It's a really good book, too. I will whenever you tell me that we have to read it.

Last time we left off was Chapter 29. Dr. Poneil is telling Abigail in one of their sessions, therapy sessions, Hey, you need to move away from your situation. Just like Ed needs to get out of this town.

And the kids need to get out of dairy. Abigail is being told you need to leave. And Abby responds is like, Well, I'll still gonna be me when I leave with all my baggage.

And Parnell's response to her was like, right, and then you can work on yourself when you take yourself out of this crazy situation. So where we pick up today, Debbie is in a different town. She's at a different school, and the school's forcing her to take some undergrad courses to fill their requirements.

And she's in a class. And there's a campus lockdown. Because I think there was a weather what happened? The weather? Oh, the weather, right.

So there's a campus lockdown because of the weather. And she bonds with a guy named Cy Cyrus, one of the guys in the class too. And he reveals that he is seeking custody of his niece, because she's in a terrible situation.

And what Oh, yeah, the something happens with like a wallet, right? Like, so there's these events, what I'm getting as this event, so he tells her about her niece, he returns a wallet they find to the police without taking anything. And this act of integrity, Jonathan, if you want to define integrity for us, solidifies Abigail's trust to him, or in him in Chapter 30. And then we quickly move into Yasmina in the following chapter.

It's now 1995. Yasmina hides her communications with the Jones family from her husband, who the the Iranian man she met earlier on. And she lies to him to visit a dying Nanette in San Jose, needing closure before she considers her friend now before her friend passes.

Yasmina arrives at Abigail's rental house, and is shocked by its shabbiness. She recalls how she cut ties with the family after Nikki falsely accused Yasmina's son's Adam of a crime. And despite all this, despite the past, she feels this desire to reconnect with Nanette one last time.

Overwhelmed by her emotion after the visit, Yasmina decides to sponsor her old friend Amira, remember who met her in the first few chapters, to come to America. And she begins to reflect on her journey from poverty to stability and realizes she is done holding grudges. Because remember, her husband left her, accused her of being infertile.

All that happens in the Moab house, you know, she was accused of letting the little girl being truant. Then, you know, when she comes to America, she was invited there under false pretenses of a visa, all the stuff, things that happened with Adam and her son, and what Nikki did to them. This is the moment where Yasmina says, I'm done with letting the past define me.

And I'm done with whatever it is I'm holding, I'm letting go of it. Yeah, which is a strong decision to make as a human. And anyone who's been human for, you know, any amount of time can probably attest to being really upset into your level of emotion, traumatized, angry, bitter, frustrated, blah, blah, blah, in a way that you won't move past it.

Not like, hey, someone cut me off and I'm going to forget about it in two days because my life just moved on. Making a decision like this is huge. It's huge, like for a character or a human.

And it's a good thing, but it's a difficult thing. Do you feel like Yasmina had the struggle that I feel like I've had, maybe you've had to go through? Or do you feel like it was just kind of softer? I don't know how else to say that. I think first person POV, a little bit more pithy or shorter, kind of a writing that Debbie uses.

I think it worked well. She went through what you need to go through. And I think that because she saw Nanette in her situation in the shabby house, you know, she's almost dying close to death.

I think she was able to see it from, you know, more of a satellite view, more of a cosmic view and going, you know what? Shit happens. And sometimes shitty shit happens and people act horribly to you. But you can't let that define your world.

You can't constantly hold on to it. It doesn't mean excuses any of the shittiness. Correct, correct.

At all. That's not what anybody's saying ever. No rational therapist or, you know, empathetic pastor or knowledgeable counselor will say that.

Two things can be mutually true at the same time. Absolutely. The moment she found herself in just jarred her, you know, to some degree, where she was like, oh, okay, well, now I'm looking at it in a different way.

I don't need to carry this with me. I need to move forward because not only am I more secure financially, more secure emotionally, I don't need this to be like an attachment to me. You know, look at this person.

Their daughter is, you know, a con artist. She's dying in front of me. She's on her deathbed.

Why do I need to let her ruin my life? Yeah, that's the power of forgiveness. That's the power of letting go. Right.

Where forgiveness doesn't mean that what they did was justified. And I think this is the thing that modern society has lost is just because I forgive you for doing something awful to me. I think I've brought this up on previous episodes.

The year is twenty eighteen. I just went through a breakup. A friend of mine had a mental breakdown.

I let him move in. He and my ex-girlfriend start dating six weeks after he moves in. Right.

Yeah, that's an a-hole move. It's it's a bunch of things, but like I can forgive both of them. Doesn't mean that I trust them.

Doesn't mean that I need to let them in my lives. Right. Absolutely.

So like people choose what ring of closeness they want to have to you based on how they treat you and you should respond in kind. However. In conjunction with that, you also should not be holding onto that forever because that's a toll on you if they die, move on, move away, whatever.

That is a burden that you have to carry, which is where forgiveness comes in. Forgiveness says, I don't I am letting go of the justice that is required for this to be brought to recompense, for this to be resolved to me. There no longer needs to be justice for what you did.

Doesn't mean it was OK. Doesn't mean that I agree with it. But you're accepting that it happened and you're no longer going to carry the the energy, the emotional energy that's required to hold this person accountable for justice.

Right. Yeah. Justice on your own terms, because there's always is justice, not only that this side of, you know, of life, but everybody will face justice.

And forgiveness means that you will no longer demand justice, but you'll let justice take its own natural course. And so you are not going to demand it from them or try to get it on your own terms or try to get it on your own terms. Yes, that's a that's a pretty big.

Thank you for adding that, because, look, I think I've told Slava, my friend Ryan, one of my best friends who helped me keep out of prison. Frankly, when that was happening, we were all he was living with me. So like I was.

Delusional and I say that because I was blind with rage at what was going on that I almost did things that would get me thrown in prison. Let's just call it what it is. Let's be honest with ourselves.

Right. Because the emotion has power. But when you forgive.

That power is released. It no longer controls you. Doesn't mean you don't have to process grief and like new emotions that arise because it's layers, it's like a seven layer cake.

But I don't know how many I don't know how many layers the emotions have. I'd have to ask my therapist. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's similar for people in my life to including my mom and my brother, with whom I've had horrible relationships, just understanding with my mom, specifically understanding that she was a product of her times. She was also a product of a very abusive home.

One thing I shared in last episode, her mom would beat her in the head because her hair would be tangled after showers or baths or whatever the hell they took in the early 1900s in Ukraine. With my brother, he was an unwilling father figure in my life. And I to this day don't know why he was unwilling, but he did it out of either Christian duty or social obligation.

But the way in which he did it was just horrible, just ass backwards. And it wasn't tough love. It wasn't a misunderstanding.

It wasn't him pushing me to be my best and pushing harder than maybe other people would. It wasn't a conflict of characters or whatever. He was just an asshole most of the time to me.

But understanding that all of that understanding how that doesn't excuse it, but I'm like, eh, at this point, I'm in my 40s. He's passed away. What the hell am I going to do? Constantly talk about how much my brother and I didn't get along? Yeah.

And what makes it more muddy is some of the other family members, I know their responses, they would say, well, how can you even say what you're saying on this podcast now? He lets you live with him for six months and he would take you in during the summers and he would take you in during winter break since you were 13 to almost 16. And then he said, hey, why don't you move out of your house? And, you know, start a new life here so you can get away from your mom. And he would, you know, he introduced you to classical music and he introduced you to literature.

And he all those things are true. I can't take that away from him. And a lot of his advice was pretty sound.

It wasn't anything like he was telling me to do drugs and, you know, I don't know, commit suicide or something insane. But the manner in which he did it can't be justified. And my response to them would be like, he did the bare minimum that a family member that a brother should for a kid in my situation.

He doesn't deserve a cookie for giving me advice or letting me live with him. What the hell else would you do if you knew me as a kid in the house that I lived in? And you as a brother, we share a father? Yeah. Like you don't get a Nobel Peace Prize for letting me live with you in order for me to escape that.

Like, like, I'm thankful. I'm not trying to be sound like I'm ungrateful, you know, louse, but of course he would do that. But in the midst of all that, he would also gaslight me.

He kept vital information from me that would have helped me understand my mom would have helped me even escape on my own. Instead, he gaslit me into thinking I was the problem and perpetuated the abuse that I was experiencing. So he's forgiven and he's met his maker and all of any justice that he needed to face is already faced.

So I'm not here to like whine about it or besmirch his name or just shit on him while, because he's dead. But those are just facts. And I've let go of it long before he passed away.

So when he did pass away and I was able to say goodbye to him, it wasn't, you know, traumatic or dramatic or anything. It was just like, well, we've moved past stuff that we went through together as brothers. You are now dying and leaving behind three sons and a wife.

I can't sit here. Like what am I going to do? Sit here and spit in your face? Yeah. Everything is, we're past that.

We're just saying goodbye. Yeah. So I want to pause for a second.

Audience, the beauty of a story like this, that's both slice of life and we know has strong factual narrative, right? How do you process this in your own life where you're reading about someone else's story and hearing Slava and me talk about like, well, you know, I went through these things. Like, are there people that you have not forgiven? Right. Are there people that you need to forgive? Are there people that you have forgiven and you can resonate with what we're talking about? Right.

I want to hear from you in the comments. What have you been through that you, that you engaged with at this level where you said, hey, I don't want to carry this anymore. Right.

Or if you're willing, what have you engaged with that you have been carrying, but you haven't let go yet. Right. It's the beauty of stories like this from independent authors that are part of the reason that we have SideQuest.

We believe that independent authors are a new set of voices and they have stories to tell whether they're fiction or real or both. We want to hear them because it's books, it's narrative, it's storytelling, it's the shared experience of going through the narrative that Slava's sharing. Look, you don't have to go through it, living it, but you and me have now sat here and listened to it and we can go, oh man, we've shared that and we can talk about it.

We can process it and it can spark thoughts in our own minds to say, hey, you know, this reminds me of blank and now I think I know what I need to do. Right. That's why we love having indie authors, uh, who are part of our collection that we read every season.

And it's also why we believe in the indie author uprising. So please subscribe and make sure that you're following along, recommend your favorite indie authors that we should read and share the contents that we can make sure that indie authors have the ability to get their voice out there and expand their audience because of your work. Thank you.

We are now in chapter 34. Amira, the girl from the beginning of the book, is now blind and arrives to America, thanks to Abigail, with her daughter. And Yasmina helps them get settled.

And I thought this was a funny subplot, funny, not in the humorous sense. It's really like a side quest really, because it's like one and done, right? Because I was like, really, this is the fight they have to fight? Like, oh my goodness. But Yasmina fights to get a guide dog allowed in their local mosque.

Because the daughter's disabled. You didn't mention that. Keep going.

And, uh, and Amira is blind. Right. Right.

Yeah. So they need a guide dog. And, um, eventually they succeed through, you know, persistence, donations, fighting with the mosque and the leaders and the community.

And she teaches Amira that they no longer need to live as victims. They can embrace their new life, their new security. Again, just as Yasmina did, so can they.

So now what she's learned and the things that she's went through, conclusions she's made and obstacles she's overcome, all the, all that stuff. She's now giving that advice, you know, to Amira. Helping someone else out with the same thing.

Helping somebody else. Yeah. Yeah.

Abigail takes her son Yuli and her recovering father to Thanksgiving at Nikki's lavish Malibu estate. Despite Nikki's criminal history, Abigail's father is enamored with her wealth and Yuli and Abigail remain skeptical of the stolen lifestyle. So daddy's a little girl, man.

The worst thing that could happen to a kid is daddy's little boy, girl, mommy's little Prince. Goodness. And in this chapter, Nikki basically like rubs it in Abigail's face the whole time.

And she's like, well, you know, what you really need to do is blah, blah, blah, blah. And look, I'm, I'm guilty. I will raise my hand.

There's blood on my hand, if you will, of telling people how to live their lives. Let's be honest with ourselves, right? I would prefer that. But there's a difference from wanting the best for someone and making sure that they understand that they're not as good as you.

Right. And there's like a very fine, uh, broad line here that Nikki isn't even close. She ran past the line ages ago.

She, with all of her millions in dollars, uh, that she keeps on a rotation here, she has made sure to let everyone know she is living it up because of all of her success. But the thing is like, as much as what Nikki does is not okay. Uh, the fact, you know, that she was trafficked a bit in Japan that Debbie told us about, it's like, there's a little bit of compassion here for that.

But, uh, Abigail says this later in the book, she says, I don't have compassion for Nikki, who she is today. I have compassion for the little girl. And I think that that's a key difference here where it's like, hey, if you're going to keep beating your head against the wall, go for it, man.

Like that's on you. But that doesn't mean that I can't also have compassion at the same time for the little kid that you once were that could have been different, but you weren't. And it goes back to your comment about there could be independent truths that are true at the same time that exists.

Like my brother had a hard life. He was arrested when my dad was trying to escape Soviet Union. He was arrested and put in prison and the people who arrested him told my father was like, hey, keep trying.

Keep trying to escape. Keep writing your letters. We'll see what happens.

And you know, his father left his mother for my mother. There's drama. There's, you know, religious fundamentalist expectations, sentiments, all of that.

He had a very particular way of looking at the world, which was different than even the other family members. My sister, my other brother from my dad's first marriage. He served in the Soviet army after the prison sentence before they were able to escape.

That was, you know, an experience in itself. Here, he struggled for a bit before he got established. He got married late in life and all that contributed to who he was.

Doesn't make him as bad of a person or a villain as my mom was, who should have done better. Because at some point, and this is directed at him and directed at my mom and directed at anybody who's listening, whether you're the victim or the perpetrator, your bullshit does not give you the right to treat others, especially those in your care like garbage. That's not an excuse.

Just because you had a kid at 18, just because you had a kid in 18 and you f***ed him up emotionally, you don't get a Nobel peace prize. If I can use that example again for feeding them and for clothing them and for making sure they got a good grade in school. It's more, that's more than just being a brother, a father, a mother.

But getting back to my actual point, it helps me understand my dad, my mom, my brother. It helps me understand them and it makes me not freaking hate them. Right.

Well, that's not excusing anything. This literally gets into why Debbie wrote the book. She asked the question, we learned this in the author interview.

She asked the question, is this generational? Right. And so the story that you just shared of like, well, my dad went through this, my mom was through that. Yeah.

So the question remains, is this generational? And the answer is yes. Yes. If you don't clear it up, and I'm just literally going to break the fourth wall here, folks.

If you don't work on yourself and you have kids, they will have all the same problems that you do for the most part. You have to say the buck stops with me, which we kind of see happen here in the story where it's like, hey, I'm not going to let this go again. It sounds like Debbie did the same thing.

She's like, I'm not going to let this happen again. I'm not going to let the cycle continue. Right.

You can call it a generational curse. You can call it cycles. You can call it whatever you want.

If you don't clean up yourself, it's not going to change because nothing changes if nothing changes. And now it can sound trite to say this, but frankly, it's not easy. And no one's saying it's easy.

It's absolutely really hard. But good things are hard. Today in modernity, most of us are lazy.

I will stop because I will go down a road here. Chapter 36, back to the book. Well, you already covered chapter 36.

It's where Nikki flashes her lifestyle and gets on Abigail's case. Well, no, it's Nick. Well, well, 36, 35, 36 are at the same party.

So 36 is where Nikki takes someone's coat and is running like a suspicious charity scam. Yeah, that's where she gets on Abigail's case for not being as successful as she is. Oh, I thought it was at Thanksgiving.

Whatever. All right. So 37.

It's the same party. It's the same Thanksgiving party. Yeah.

Okay. But let's move to next year. It's 2010.

No, 2011. 2011. Abigail is struggling financially while working as a school psychologist.

Nikki calls with a peace offering, claiming she wants to help Abigail get a small business loan. Desperate, Abigail agrees to let Nikki help with the paperwork. Abigail rents an office, builds a private practice, following marketing advice to the letter.

So she's doing all she can. Yeah, she buys a book and she's doing everything that the book says. Yep, yep, yep.

She sublets space to a therapist named Corey to make ends meet. However, despite all this, on the side, Nikki fails to provide the promised loan money when bills come due, leaving Abigail in the hole. Chapter 39, Abigail receives a bill instead of a check, revealing Nikki stole over $20,000 in her name.

Her father also tells her that Nikki stole a collectible, a valuable collectible from him. They realize Nikki has absconded with these things, disconnected her phone and vanished. In chapter 40, Abigail learns from a neighbor that Nikki has been arrested in New York for massive fraud.

We're shocked. We're all shocked. We're all shocked.

But this is, if you want to get the details, the real live details, go listen to the author interview. Debbie gets into it. Desperate for money, Abigail starts a blog using fake conservative personas to generate income.

Yes, this was funny. I actually want to know from Debbie if this is real. Yes.

Yeah, I want to know how real is this? The thing is, I wouldn't put it past her because sometimes you have to do what you have to do, which you could, you could make the argument for Nikki too. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. It's like, well, then you have to get in the line here.

Anyway, keep us, keep us going. Yeah. Abigail's blog becomes a hit, earning her significant money through gentle parenting advice, but it's all based on lies about her life.

She creates a whole persona. So she's kind of like Nikki here. She creates a family.

Yeah, there it is. And she justifies the deception to herself as a temporary fix to get her out of debt. However, she feels increasing guilt as her advice affects real families.

All right. Can we just pause here for a second? You've heard me on the show say, can we just, you know, can we call it what it is? Can we be honest with ourselves? It's stuff like this that like, it's not hard to justify your actions. Well, I'll just have another two scoops of ice cream.

Well, I'll just not go work out today. I'll just do this. I'll just, justifying things is not hard.

Good things are hard to do. I just want to say that because we, we can find ourselves in deception because it was like, well, it's okay if I do this because, and then you insert your reason, but if someone else does it, well, that's not allowed, which is why I am a stark proponent of like, hey, it's important to just really be honest with yourself, which most people don't want to do. And it's hard.

None of this stuff's easy. Working yourself, growing, not easy. Once you start doing it though, you become a little healthier, a little healthier.

And then you don't pass that stuff onto your kids. This whole book about generational passing downs and generational curses, generational patterns, generational cycles, like it doesn't have to be that way. And we can literally change the world if people will just take a little bit of ownership and responsibility and work on the nonsense that they're not dealing with.

Again, not easy. And you can tell me that I sound like a self-help book, but frankly, you all know that if two other people worked on themselves for one topic, pick anyone, the world would be a some of her advice had some fallout. Read the book if you want to know what that is.

He accuses Abigail of being a fraud like Nikki, leading to a massive fight. Abigail tries to restore the site, but Yuli threatens to report her to the licensing board, which he does, which in the next chapter, he's like, you know what? Mom needs to be taught a lesson, I guess. Yuli reports Abigail and she's assigned a caseworker, Sarah Cohen, by the licensing board, expecting punishment.

Also a Jew. A lot of Jews in this book. Including the author and the podcast hosts.

I was going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to refrain from making any jokes.

Abigail is surprised by Sarah's empathetic but very firm approach. Sarah suspends Abigail's license, as she should, but offers a mentorship as a path to redemption, which I thought was fabulous. That was well done.

Very generous. As a storytelling tactic and as, you know, what I am looking for in the story and world, I'm like, with Abigail, I'm like, what's happening? I'm like, oh, she will have a chance at redemption here. This won't be a slap on her wrist and it won't be a beheading either, right? She will have to do some stuff to get right.

In the next chapter, Sarah comes home for a visit where Abigail tries to impress her with fancy dinner. Sarah calls out this deception, leading to an honest conversation about Abigail's scarcity mindset. They reach a new understanding, with Sarah agreeing to guide Abigail back to an ethical practice.

Do you think this was deceptive? The dinner? To a degree. I think it's kid Abigail trying to, you know, swim with the sharks, right? She's always trying to avoid getting yelled at or avoid getting in trouble for Nikki. She's learned how to maneuver these waters and not in the front of her head, but maybe subconsciously, she was like, well, if I show Sarah that I'm good at this, she'll also think that I'm improving in other ways.

Me reading into it, but I don't think it's a far-fetched reading in. Okay, but you're reading into it. So like, I don't think it's deceptive.

I think that as a Moroccan Jew or like, you know, descendant, right? She wanted to impress another Jew. Host correctly. Host correctly, right? House is a little cleaner.

Um, so I understand Sarah's response. I don't feel like Abigail did anything wrong here. Maybe I'm misremembering the detailed motives of the internal POV.

Um, but like cleaning up your house when you have someone who's an authority figure that you're subservient to at the moment coming over, like, I don't remember her coaching Yuli to be like, hey, don't say anything bad. But like, she just wanted to keep her house clean. And then she makes a note about minimalism, which I'm like, yeah, that, that would make your house seem like way more than it could be, which is why Sarah would give an outburst of like, you're a liar and a fraud, right? Because she's like, well, of course you have time.

Look at this place, right? You must have a cleaner. Yeah. You know, but it's like, if you do have minimalism, you don't have tchotchkes.

I, on the other hand, have lots of tchotchkes. I'm not getting away. Those are my tchotchkes.

A lot of tchotchke over here. Come on, tchotchke. Let's go.

Tchotchke and sons. So Abigail, the next chapter is attending a charity auction with Sarah feeling out of place among the wealthy. Oh, this is a weird chapter.

This absolutely would not blow three flipping grand on like a bottle of $60 wine. Well, it all goes to a good cause. So why don't they work hard? Our church has a auction for charity for a charity in a country out far in the east, which I forgot.

So I'm a horrible church member, but they sell a golf, a round of golf with the pastor. Sure. And that sometime goes for a couple of thousand dollars.

The church doesn't take any of that. The pastor doesn't take any of that. That money goes to the work that builds schools and feeds the villagers, right? Helps with the soup kitchens in the village.

And that money, that's all it does. And the pastor just has to waste a Saturday with some schmuck, you know, playing golf. The guy who actually bought it is not a schmuck.

He's a good guy. I know him. But if it wasn't that guy who bought it, I don't want to call him a schmuck publicly anyway.

Well, they don't listen to this podcast. They'll never listen to this podcast because it's not their thing. But I'm actually saying the guy who bought it is actually not a schmuck.

So they're at this charity. Abigail is feeling out of place with the wealthy. Sarah bids on a cake she can't afford to teach Abigail a lesson about generosity and community.

But the cake wasn't even that great. Was it a Bundt cake, right? A bland, nothing Bundt cake? Well, that's not the point. I know you're hung up on this.

No, no, no. But look, if you're going to do a charity thing, make sure the stuff's good. The prices were just exorbitant.

And sure, you can tell me that I'm getting stuck on the details, and you can fast forward if you want to. But she's a struggling single mom, and she's being encouraged by her therapist to spend a bunch of money she doesn't have. When her therapist told her that she thinks she's a fraud because she thinks she actually does have time and money.

It's like, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. What are you doing here? Well, we leave Sarah to both... You're like, all right, we're not going to bother with this. The lesson was learned.

Abigail learned. Sarah didn't know. Whatever you think of the lesson, lesson was learned in a world.

And we are now three years in the future. No, one year in the future. One year in the future.

Sorry. 2011, 2012. And 2012, Hugh dies of a heart attack, hallucinating an angel named Miriam who comforts him.

Which is really just a nurse. He confesses his regrets about his failures as a father and husband, and dies peacefully before Abigail can arrive to say goodbye. In 47, this is where it's three years later, in 2015, Yasmina receives letters from an incarcerated Nikki, but is pressured by her son, Adam, to ignore them.

Thank you, Adam. The sons are the only ones who are acting normally in this section of the book. She's reformed.

She makes me feel good. Adam fears Nikki will scam Yasmina again and threatens a conservatorship if she engages. And Yasmina, obviously, with some of her baggage, just feels controlled and feels diminished.

Her autonomy, her authority as a mother, she feels it's all being stifled because, what she says, her family's overprotection. But, but, but, but, let's talk about this. She married Bajan.

Bajan was wealthy, so she has this wealth, right? She had some kids, and this is their inheritance. Yeah. I'm not on her side.

Right? No, I'm posing. I'm not saying you're on her side. I just can be spicy.

But this is the thing. Let's talk about this. Yes, it's her money, but, like, we literally know Nikki's a scammer.

So is Adam wrong for doing this? No. No. Audience? I'm looking at you.

Is Adam wrong for doing this? Yasmina feels stifled by her caregivers and misses her independence, which, well, her independence, which she never really had. She has more independence now than she had back then. Fact.

She's frustrated by safety rules preventing her from visiting the beach. She plots to have the handyman build a ramp secretly. All this to reclaim some sense of normalcy, autonomy, and she longs to reclaim the agency she had as a young nomad girl, which I will push against in that culture.

And this is not a slight on the culture. This is just facts. And that culture in that time, I doubt young women had that much autonomy.

Well, we know that she didn't. We know that she didn't because she was married. At 14.

Yeah. So if we're talking about prepubescent Yasmina running around the backyard, yeah, you had all the autonomy in the world. You're a freaking kid, you know.

But this is people processing their shit. And it's interesting because we all actually do this. Most people do this.

We look back on the past with filters. Everybody does this, right? You know, Jan once said he's like, why? Why would people bury their dead? Do they only tell the good stories? Something like that, right? Jan's a guy that Slava and I used to know. He's gone.

And he made a comment about how we filter out all of the the negatives. He can say that, you know, the husband used to beat the white all the time, but then she'll just like to speak about the good stuff, right? Because we filter out the bad, whether it's to honor the dead or we just don't want to think about it like we filter out a lot of the past as it is. So she longs to reclaim the agency she had as she was a young nomad girl.

But like she got married at 14. You didn't have agency. You were married to what? A 17 year old, right? Something like that.

He was young, too. And then you got divorced, excommunicated from your own community. There's no autonomy here.

And then shipped off. There's no autonomy here. But she's remembering it through filtered thoughts and filtered memory, right? Yeah.

And because she's feeling the same oppression, whether she's right about it or not, but she's feeling the same oppression in this moment as she did throughout her life. She is grabbing at straws and processing this trauma. And currently, maybe not in the best way possible, right? You know, and she just had that epiphany.

Oh, I don't need to hold on to anything. But wait a minute, that old habit, that comfortable, self soothing, self wound licking, you know, victimhood comes out. And again, audience, that's not a slide of her.

That's just her processing this stuff. And, you know, as the time here continues, and it's not a lot of time, it's probably weeks. She ends up building the ramp and, you know, dipping her feet in the ocean.

And she shares her history with the handyman, reflecting on colonialism, her survivor, how she got there. And again, she comes to this conclusion. She finds peace in her memories, and she feels ready for whatever comes next.

Oh, I almost forgot. I want to talk about that, but I almost forgot. Nikki, the letter that she sent, she gets somebody to read the letter for her.

And Nikki's like, oh, I'm all better. I'm studying Buddhism now. That was like, okay, buddy.

So we'll leave Nikki alone. But I want to talk about Yasmina's second bump, call it bump or call it, you know, arc here, where she gets this ramp that she wants. She has her feet in the ocean.

And again, just like with a die in the net, she's like, oh, wait. Not only do I have to not hold on to what people have done to me, but I do have decent memories. And I do have a life, you know, that whether it's well-lived or whatever, I lived a life and I do have a story.

I am my own person. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's pulse check real quick, because that's like chapter 50. I was going to say episode 50. Chapter 50 of what's going on here in the book.

Like, where are you guys at? How are you temping this for your read-through right now? What's the temperature for you? You liken the book. You didn't finish the book. You bought a second copy to give to a friend because they also need to process their life.

What, what, where's your temperature right now for the book and the journey of the characters? We jump timelines again. We are in 2022. Seven years later.

Yep. Abigail tracks Nikki's latest arrest for scamming a wealthy woman. She connects with a journalist who reveals that Nikki was exploited in Japan as a teenager, adding a layer of tragedy to Nikki's story.

Abigail now. Abby realizes the extent of the trauma that shaped her sister. News reports in the following chapter detail Nikki's arrest and her history of fraud.

A podcast, which also happened in real life, discusses how Nikki conned socialites in Los Angeles confirming her status as a career con person, con woman, criminal. The media coverage brings Nikki's crimes to the national stage. Abigail participates in a TV documentary about Nikki to tell her side.

Though Nikki calls to threaten her. This is chapter 53. Abigail hosts a watch party with Yuli and his wife.

Finally feeling ready to detach from the drama and let go of the shame. So this is interesting too, because in the chapter she talks about like, well, I didn't say all those things, right? I said more than that. They only took a clip.

If you've never been recorded for television and only had a sub clip taken, it's just like, that's just, look, businesses exist to make money. Television is a business. The goal is to get people to watch.

How do you get people to watch? You take the best clips that are inflammatory or speak to a narrative that you're trying to say, and then you use it accordingly, right? I will give the flip side of that coin. Sometimes you're telling a story for an organization and there's a video that is two minutes long of people rambling on about nonsensical bullcrap, but timestamps 17 seconds to 107, this just happened this week, has the meat of it. So you cut everything out and you only use that portion of the video to put out.

So it's not always about making money. If, you know, and here, whatever, I'm not comparing it to, I'm just saying that happens in good situation, happens in bad situations. It's not just, you know, people just cut out, you know, parts of your speech to make you look dumb.

Now, maybe that was not just inflammatory, but that was ear catching, whatever, you know, that was creative, that was captivating. Doesn't mean that they cut it to make her look bad. Maybe Nikki's just sensitive.

Yeah. I mean, that's possible. Don't scam me.

You got to respond to people to get scammed. So sure. So moving forward one more year, Abigail and Yuli travel to Morocco for Adam's documentary.

That's Yasmina's son. Yuli is anxious about the trip, but Abigail reflects on her difficult childhood and memories there. So they're both dealing with their own stuff as they go to Morocco.

They navigate the modern airport, which defies Abigail's expectation because we all remember our childhood homes differently. Liminal spaces, malls and McDonald's water slides and ball pits and all that Chuck E. Cheese. Yep.

Adam picks him up and his enthusiasm helps ease Yuli's anxiety. They drive into modern Casablanca and Abigail marvels at how much the city has changed since her childhood. Adam points out the blend of cultures that now defines the country.

And we know in real life, Morocco had a bit of a turbulent past, especially leading up to World War II and years following. At a restaurant, chapter 56, the group discusses family history. Abigail shares memories of her father waiting for her as a child, highlighting the complexity of family trauma.

So even bad parents sometimes have good memories to share with their kids. Adam explains his vision for the documentary, focusing on a more lighthearted connection of history, families and Morocco. So in 56 here, and because we had a conversation with the author, we know that this is like her point of telling the story, right? Do you feel like it was too nail on the head? I kind of went, I kind of went back and forth as I was reading this.

I don't know. Like I'm going to take the night and the city in the city way out. Like, eh, I don't know.

And I won't let you bamboozle me into a stance. I was like, I don't know. Bamboozle you into having an opinion when literally every other thing you have an opinion on, this is the time where you're going to not have an opinion.

Well, because maybe, maybe it was too on the nose, but it didn't like, I wasn't like stopped in my reading going, huh, well, this is too much in the nose. I was just like. Then it wasn't on the nose.

If you weren't stopped in the, in your tracks, then your experience of it is not on the nose. But I can see how you might think that. So that's why I don't think that I asked the question.

I think it was brilliantly displayed in here. Because it's not, this is the point of the book. It's slid in through a documentary filmmaker who's like, hey, the character's opening up on the topic that the author wants to talk about.

And the filmmaker goes, well, I agree. However, we're going to take a different approach referencing your, hey, sometimes it gets cut because it needs to fit the story better. The group then, this is chapter 58.

The group then visits the old Moab family home now occupied by a Moroccan woman who shares her own story of poverty and survival. And instead of resentment, Abigail feels a connection to the woman and gratitude for letting them view the home. Adam films interaction, capturing a moment of shared humanity.

In the next chapter, they visit a shop where Yuli finds a postcard addressed to the Moab family. Abigail struggles with resentment toward the locals profiting from Jewish artifacts until she sees a news report that Nikki is missing. The group leaves to film elsewhere shaken by the news.

Next chapter, they're in the town square. Abigail watches Yuli enjoy music, finally relaxing into the trip. Yuli buys her a necklace with stars of David symbolizing a connection to their heritage.

Abigail recalls Yasmina's advice about adding more love to the world. Finally, in chapter 61, the group takes a train ride mirroring Yasmina's journey years ago. Yuli prays at a rabbi's tomb, embracing his roots and breaking the cycle of disconnection.

And Abigail here realizes that she and her son are the future of the family, free from the shadows of the past. In 2024, in the epilogue, Yasmina dies peacefully at 98 surrounded by family. Nikki is struck and killed by a bus.

Sorry, I understand what Debbie was doing. Nikki is struck and killed by a truck shortly before she's due to report to prison. Abigail finds peace, maintains a friendship with Sarah and prepares for the birth of her granddaughter, promising to remember the past without being defined by it.

It puts a real nice bow on this processing your family history and what you're going to carry with you moving forward kind of like we've talked about in this episode. Yeah, and the fact that she killed off Nikki, I think that was symbolic. I think that that's the final separation for in the world, in the book, that's the final separation from her past.

Because her parents are dead, Nikki's now dead and she truly has a clean slate. Well, I don't think it's just symbolic. I think if I recall the author interview in detail, I don't think she's on talking terms with Nikki.

And so this is, I think, multi-layered symbolic where it's like, well, she's not talking to me anymore, which is probably better because she just kept getting scammed. So good for you. Yep.

Well, that's it, folks. That is Papal Roses. And if you've read it with us, we want your reactions and ratings in the comments.

What'd you think? Was it as good as we said it was? Did you enjoy this book? Give it a rating for a first-time author. Show Debbie some love. I think she did fabulous work.

Leave her a review as well on whatever your favorite platform is, Amazon or otherwise, Audible, Spotify. Make sure that you tune in next week where we chat with her again. And if you have extra questions, she's going to come and check out the comments sometimes.

So it might not be right away, but leave your comments and we'll make sure that she gets them. Thanks for tuning in to the SideQuest podcast. And we're going to wrap up the season with our next book being Pride and Prejudice with a podcast takeover in two weeks headed up by my wife, Chiara, who loves Pride and Prejudice and two bumbling fools have never read it before.

So please stay tuned for all of the Neanderthal comments about why did she drop her handkerchief? Why is Mr. Darcy an idiot? Or whatever we say, because we haven't started reading it yet. Whatever you say. Excuse me? I probably will enjoy the book.

I have a feeling. I have a strange feeling that I would join. I didn't say that I'm not going to enjoy the book.

I'm just saying that you and I are going to make bumbling commentary about, oh yeah, you're better than me. Yeah. I am better than you.

And that's why I'm going to explain your comment to the audience. Pride and Prejudice, last book of the season. We're ending this season a month earlier to prepare for the next season, to make it all better.

Stay tuned for the announcements that will come out after Pride and Prejudice. And thanks for showing up here. See you next time.

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