168: Star Trek TOS Season 1, “City on the Edge of Forever”

https://youtu.be/H7JafIqUxzw

Matt and Sean talk about making history personal in this episode of Star Trek: The Original Series. This is one of the most famous and beloved episodes of the original series, but does it hold up?

YouTube version of the podcast: https://www.youtube.com/trekintime

Audio version of the podcast: https://www.trekintime.show

Get in touch: https://trekintime.show/contact

Follow us on X: @byseanferrell @mattferrell or @undecidedmf

★ Support this podcast ★

Creators & Guests

Host

Matt Ferrell

Host of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, Still TBD, and Trek in Time podcasts

Host

Sean Ferrell 🐨

Co-host of Still TBD and Trek in Time Podcasts

What is Trek In Time?

Join Sean and Matt as they rewatch all of Star Trek in order and in historical context.

In this episode of Trek in Time, we're talking about a love story made up of multiple love stories. Welcome everybody to Trek in Time. That's right, we're talking about season one, City on the Edge of Forever, episode number 28, in shooting order, and 28 in broadcast order. Something suspicious happening there.

Anyway, looking forward to talking about that. This is, of course, the end. Podcast that takes a look at every episode of Star Trek in chronological stardate order, and we're also taking a look at how the world was at the time of original broadcast and who are we? Well, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm an author. I read some sci fi, I write some stuff for kids.

And with me as always is my brother, Matt. He is that Matt, as his t shirt says of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives and Matt, how are you doing today? Thanks You mean the t shirt that you gave me, Sean? Yes, the t shirt that I made. Yes, I am that Matt.

Uh, things are good. Uh, Other than the fact that I know people hate it when we talk about the weather, but it's crazy cold right now, Sean. We have snow on the ground. It's it feels like it's 10 degrees Fahrenheit. My dog doesn't like going outside in this. It's really funny. It's great to get her outside.

She like runs out, does her business and comes running right back inside because she doesn't want to be out there. Um, time of the year. Yeah. If anybody's wondering why I've got an extra twinkle in my eye, it is because, well, yes, I am sitting just 20 feet away from a Christmas tree. And as Matt mentioned, let me just put it this way.

I have been huddling beside my Christmas tree just because the tiny little lights give off a tiny little bit of heat. It's cold in this basement living room. But anyway, on now to. This episode, before we get into our discussion of City on the Edge of Forever, we always like to revisit your comments about previous episodes.

So Matt, what have you found for us this week? This week we have one from PaleGhost69 who wrote, The original series, Klingons are evil, but we can work it out. Next generation, Klingons operate from a system of beliefs that can complement our own. And then, Discovery, Klingons are crazy religious fanatics that can't be negotiated with.

Oh, and they're master spies, not warriors. Yeah, I like this because it kind of, it kind of is bullet pointed. Yeah. Every single series of this, of Star Trek has kind of like taken a very different tact on what Klingons actually are. Yeah. We didn't talk about it last week, but it is interesting to consider that the episode we just watched, which was the first introduction of Klingons into the Star Trek universe would have been taking place roughly, let's say 10 years, maybe 15 after the Klingon war that is depicted in Discovery.

Right. Right. And as he points out, PaleGhost points out, the depiction of Klingons in that is religious fanatic, bent on, like, using spycraft and body manipulation to infiltrate the Federation. And here, this time, it is just the warmongering. We're here and we're not, we're not backing down. And I feel like there is a kind of head canon bridge I can create between those two, because the last time we saw the Klingons in the newer episodes was.

Their new leader, who was the former, she was effectively like a low ranking member of the Klingon hierarchy, had taken over and was shedding a lot of the previous religious trappings. Yep, and fostering a mentality of like Klingon first. We are not houses, we are Klingon first. And going back to the teachings of Kah'less, and so it's this interesting bridge I think where maybe yes, maybe the original series Klingons who just boldly walk in and say like, listen, we're in charge now, maybe that is in fact born of that philosophy shift away from we have religious doctrine and we have houses and we have all this infighting.

And I kind of like the, um, headcanon bridge that I've created around that. How do you feel about that? Oh, no, I have the same exact feeling and I don't think that's, uh, necessarily just up to us. I think the discovery, the way they wrapped it up with her. Starting to shed the religious element a bit and soften that and make them more Klingon.

They were, they were deliberately trying to create that bridge to what we know of Klingons today. So you could kind of see the inflection point of how things would be shifting and changing. So yeah, I don't think it's radically different from show to show, but it is interesting how each show, it is interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like, it's kind of like a view of them in a moment in time of like how the And the show creators at the time felt about that. What is the Klingon going to represent? What is it the avatar for at that moment? And so it kind of shifted. Do you wonder, do you wonder if it, if it is a bold, um, what is the biggest concern of our era in the 1960s?

Khrushchev is hammering his shoe on the table and saying, we will bury you. Well, and here's the fun. Here's the funny thing, Sean. Next comment is related directly to this which is from Sam Higdon 979 who wrote great episode guys talking about Errand of Mercy Have you ever looked at the parallels between Romulans and Klingons to Germany and Japan which were against the US World War two and the original series the two main enemies of our Romulans Germany and Japan And Klingons, Japan. Also, World War II was not very far from when this was made and many people of the show were a part of World War II. Do you think there was an intentional parallel between these two species and countries?

And my hunch would be, yeah, I don't think it was necessarily a, uh, cognitive, like, I don't think they were like deliberately like, yeah, we're going to make these the Germans and we're gonna make these the Japanese. I think it was probably more subconscious, but I do think that's there. The world at that time, World War II was still very present in the And so I, I wouldn't be surprised if that did influence how they created those two species to use as kind of foils for the Federation.

Yeah. It's interesting to think through all the series. And as you mentioned, like Next Generation was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. The Soviet Union would collapse toward the middle of that series. And then you'd head into Deep Space Nine with a fractured Soviet uh, Dilemma, and a kind of cobbling together of a new vision of peace.

The 1960s would have been the very brunt, we'll bury you, and we're not afraid, and we can go toe to toe with you. And using proxies in battle. And then the version presented in Discovery kind of follows the post 9 11 religious fundamentalism as the biggest danger on the block. So it is, I think that all, it is all right there.

Somebody should really do a podcast about taking a look at this from a historical perspective.

If only, if only somebody would do that. Why doesn't somebody do that?

I, I honestly, I do love that because I love, I love, I love how you can see the influence over time of how they were using these different species to kind of reflect what was in the public consciousness at the time. It definitely rings true for me. I, I would also link it back very briefly to the evolution of fables and fairy tales throughout history that go back to like the old Germanic stories that were told and they would twist and change as cultures needed to teach different lessons.

So you ended up with a, in various versions of some of these older tales and fables, some of the things that in later retellings were the monsters were not originally monsters. They were just others. They were, you know, there were questions and darkness in the woods, but there was not outright evil and danger.

And then at a certain point, there were evolutions of these stories so that the Big Bad Wolf stopped being, having a kind of wisdom and became just a threat. And it's born of what the culture sees as the necessity of the moment. And I think that there's an interesting, I don't know, it seems unexpected to say that of a TV show from the 20th century.

But here we are, we're seeing it. It's been around long enough that it's evolving in those ways. Yeah, that's the key. The show's been around for what? Almost 60 years. Yep. That's, that's not just like a short run. That's generational. So it's like, you'd understand why there'd be differences here. Yeah. And then on the final comments, which all tie back to Wrong Answers Only and our gentleman friend of the show, Mark Loveless, every week, uh, Mark Loveless left a couple of comments.

One shot was a response to when I said we should publish a book about Trek in Time called Wrong Answers Only. And his response to that was, in my universe, the book is called Trek in Time, right answers only. Just saying, Sean.

There you go. And on that note, for the plot of City on the Edge of Forever, what we're talking about today, the original storyline involved a planet called Disiland. With themed cities for tourists. The story was supposed to involve Chekhov and Sulu becoming quote, addicted to roller coasters in the city called Edge of Forever.

However, Walt Disney found out about this and was going to sue Roddenberry, but then Roddenberry sold him a huge plot of land he had recently bought that was located west of Orlando Airport in Florida and changed the plot to some sad heartbreaking time travel thing. No idea what happened to that land.

Which he then responded to his own comment saying, okay, that's a little meta or whatever. Time travel does that to you. Right. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark. And Mark, if you don't already write science fiction with a comedic bent, you should. You should. I'd buy that book. Yeah, me too. That noise in the background, that can mean only one thing.

That's right. It's time for Matt's multimedia display to go off. For anybody who's just listening to us and not looking at us, yes, there's red lights blinking behind Matt. That means it's the read alert, which can mean it's time for Matt to buckle up and tackle the Wikipedia description, which once again, Sean has not bothered to proofread.

Good luck. Oh boy. Okay, this is gonna be fun. After accidentally overdosing on a powerful stimulant, Dr. McCoy becomes unbalanced and disappears through the Guardian of Forever, a newly discovered time portal on a remote planet. Kirk and Spock follow after learning that McCoy somehow changed history, removing everything they once knew, including the Enterprise.

Arriving in the 1930s, the duo meets Edith Keeler, a New York social worker, who gives them a place to stay. As the days pass and McCoy is nowhere to be seen, Kirk finds himself falling in love with Keeler, but Spock discovers that Keeler must die to restore the timeline. Not a bad summary. Thank you, Wikipedia.

This episode, directed by Joseph Pevney, written by Harlan Ellison. Yes, that Harlan Ellison. I did not make him a t shirt.

Uncredited writing by DC Fontana and Gene L. Coon, as this would evolve from Ellison's original screenplay, multiple redrafts, and growing, uh, let's call it distrust and dislike between Ellison and Roddenberry. We'll get into that later. The main cast is on display here. We have William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelly.

We get a splash of James Doohan, a little bit of Nichelle Nichols and George Takei. And in their time travel adventure, they of course meet Joan Collins. Matt, this was surprising to me as I did a little bit of research. Did you know that one Joan Henrietta Collins, is a Dame? I had no idea. Yes. She is listed as an English actress, author, and columnist.

And she is the recipient of Golden Globe Awards, People's Choice Awards, two Soap Opera Digest Awards, and a Primetime Emmy Award nomination. In 1983, she was awarded a Hollywood Walk of Fame star. She has been recognized for her philanthropy, particularly her advocacy toward causes relating to children, which has earned her many honors.

And in 2015, she was made a Dame by Queen Elizabeth II for her charitable services presented to her by the then Prince of Wales, Charles. She is one of the last surviving actresses from the Golden Age of Hollywood. She is, I believe, I want to say 93. So, alongside her, we have John Harmon, we have Hal Baylor, we have David L. Ross, John Winston as Transporter Chief Kyle. This is of course the calm meanie of his day. The Mr. O'Brien who's just standing in the transporter room like, wonder if anybody wants to go to this planet. I guess not. Bartell LaRue as the voice of the Guardian, and Eddie Paskey as Lieutenant Leslie, although he is uncredited.

I also would like to point out that John Harmon is listed in the credits as the character, Rodent. Any guesses, Matt, as to which character that is? Uh, it's probably one of the bum people on the history section. Yes. He in fact is the, the gentleman who ends up vaporizing himself. Oh, okay. There you go. This episode originally aired April 6th, 1967.

And no surprises to Matt here, as he'll take us right into the song Happy Together by the Turtles, which was the number one song of the week. Take it away, Matt.

That was great as always. And of course, you're seeing now a picture of the Turtles shortly after they discovered that they had tested positive for no STDs. And, uh,

At the movies, Matt, it feels like we've talked about almost all of season one of Star Trek. Yes. 20 some episodes, 28 up to this count, 28 aired, 28 produced at this point. We've talked about three movies without looking. I don't know if you've looked, but you want to take a guess as to which movie was number one this week.

Why? Yes, it was how to succeed in business without really trying. I'm surprised it's not the Bible. I hope nobody listening or watching us takes us the wrong way, but I hope it's not the Bible at any point from here on out

and on television, everybody who is a regular viewer or listener should know by now that we are taking a look at the Nielsen Ratings. The number one show for this year that Star Trek's first season appeared in 1966 to 67. Bonanza was the number one show, but the 29 at the Nielsen's. And to compare that to Star Trek, which earned a 12 on average for the season.

We've been looking at a lot of shows that are very recognizable. We've seen Bewitched. We've seen The Virginian, Lawrence Welk, Family Affair, The Smothers Brothers, Comedy Hour, all the way down to this week's episode, this week's show, which earned a 20. So we're still looking at shows, Bonanza at a 29, a 20 is still a good, solid You know, eight above what Star Trek was getting and yes, it was the show, Tarzan.

Yep. Yep. Now, Matt and I have just talked a few moments ago about the mythology and universe of Star Trek and how it's evolved over time because, well, it's been around for 60 years. They made three seasons in the sixties. But then it would go on to respawn in films and other television series and more films and more television series and on and on for 60 years.

And at the same time, there was this little show called Tarzan that ran on NBC from 1966 to 1968. Played by Tarzan, played by Ron Ely. I have no memory of the show. I have of course heard of Tarzan and I've seen various adaptations of Tarzan, but I've never heard of this one. And how do I know I've never heard of this one?

Because of this description, Matt. Hold on. No, boy. Tarzan is a series that aired on NBC from 1966 to 1968. The series portrayed Tarzan as a well educated character who grew tired of civilization and returned to the jungle from which he had been raised. Whaaat? That's horrible. This show, yes. So instead of having a Ugg, me, Tarzan, you, Jane, this forest, mine, sort of depiction.

It's Gilgan Island's Professor in the Woods. Yes, we have a Well, of course you understand that this is a fern and ferns are known to grow in this way. Oh, by the way, I grew up eating dung.

The first episodes were filmed in Brazil and the production was relocated to Mexico. And the series was set, I love this too. The series was set in a fictional, newly independent African nation. Oh, that's even worse. This is, yeah. So you can take the white man out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the white man who goes back to teach the newly independent African people how to take care of themselves.

And in the news. It's not going to get better, is it? Oh, it's going to get weird because we see news stories such as the U. S. proposing to reduce its forces connected to NATO by 12, 000. Big ramping down of the post World War II NATO forces, there were some people arrested in Berlin who were part of an assassination plot.

Cornell University had a fire which killed eight students and a professor, and the president was seeking to raise mail rates and Federal Pay. And then hidden amongst these stories, there was one that stood out, which made me stop and re read the headline, and re read the headline, or read the article.

Turkey requested leeway in using Atom Landmine. What? I said. Yeah, that seems, what the heck? The issue will be discussed during the talks to be conducted here tomorrow and Friday by the newly established Seven Power Nuclear Planning Group of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The talks coincide with the presence in Washington of the Turkish President, Kevet Senay, who is here for conversations with President Johnson and administration officials.

Nuclear mines, which have been in the United States arsenal for years, Come in various sizes, but most are small enough to be planted by a small team of men in a truck or helicopter. Such mines, planted along the wall of a mountain path, near a major bridge, or at a key rail junction, would be fired by remote control, creating a barrier to enemy movement by fallout as well as explosion.

Yeah,

it's horrifying. I I mean, like, I found myself reading that and hearing a tremendous record scratch of history and thinking, why did we never talk about the fact that the U. S. actually developed nuclear mines? What was the thinking around these? Why is it torn straight out of a James Bond movie? It just seems like such an incalculably bad idea to build a small device that, I love the description, it could be planted by men out of a helicopter, or maybe a truck.

I'm sorry, why are you describing the vehicles that these men would be taking to plant an atomic device that could be remotely detonated? It does sound like a Bond villain, it sounds like, No, Mr. Communist, I expect you to die. Exactly. Like, what's happening? Like, LBJ is just like, Well, I got the world by the balls now.

Like, it's just I found myself thinking like, good night. This is atrocious. It's absolutely atrocious. And the article would go on to describe like, these are kept very safe. Yeah, sure. Okay. It goes, it goes deeply into a, like, reassuring. What could possibly go wrong? But don't you worry. We, the U. S. has, like, we got soldiers, and those soldiers have guns, and they're, like, standing there with those, those mines, and they're not letting anybody touch them.

Even though they could fit onto a truck or helicopter and they could be taken away and put anywhere. So don't worry. Everything's fine. The gif of the, the gif of the dog in the room is on fire. This is fine. Everything's fine. Just.

On now to our discussion about. We've had time travel stories in Trek up to this point before, but this one is For me, Chef's Kiss, it is such a wonderful depiction of time travel and it is because it makes it all matter personally to the protagonists. The last time we talked about time travel, remind me if I'm wrong, was the Enterprise inadvertently went back to the 20th century and stole a pilot.

And then it's all about getting the pilot back because he has to become a dad. And I don't mind that episode. I like that episode. There are moments where I think that the episode does an okay job with what it's trying to do, but this one, in comparison, hits emotional depths that that one doesn't even think exists.

And it starts with, I think, you've got Harlan Ellison, who is a Hugo Award winning sci fi writer. When Roddenberry started, Star Trek, he knew he wanted to get the best sci fi writers out there, and he knew of Ellison's work, so he wanted to get Ellison on board, and he reached out to him very early in the production.

They didn't even yet have a series bible for the show, so they let Ellison do what he wanted. There were various aspects of what Ellison would do in his script that went counter to the lore of Trek for the original series. I think that his original script as written, and I have read his original script.

I read it in, uh, many, many years ago, so I can't remember details, but I do believe that there were elements of it that if it was being produced in the 1990s, it could have been dropped very neatly into Deep Space Nine because Deep Space Nine's universe was a little bigger as far as like the fringes around the Federation where you know, nefarious activities were taking place because ultimately his depiction of the Enterprise crew was, well, like any military crew, there are going to be some scofflaws.

And there are going to be people who are in it for themselves. And so there is a drug dealer aboard the Enterprise. There's somebody who's addicted to a drug and he ends up killing somebody. And then he's a wanted man aboard the Enterprise, flees to the planet, jumps through the time portal, trying to escape the pursuit of the law. In other words. This gets rewritten and rewritten and rewritten until finally we end up with the script that is here, but Ellison hated this final version. And he was asked to rewrite things, but wasn't paid more money. And as a result, there was a certain point where he was just like, like, I've been giving you blood and you're not paying me for it.

So what is, what is this? And he hated it. Till Roddenberry's death, Ellison bore a grudge against Roddenberry till the end of Roddenberry's life. And Ellison was also known to be kind of like that guy, like he bore a lot of grudges and he, he often told a story about how he mailed somebody a dead animal once.

As a, as a means of like sending a message. Um, go ahead. I was going to say Gene Roddenberry had a reputation for not being great. So it's like, yeah, I feel like the truth is in between these two gentlemen, but it does seem a little bit of on Ellison's part, ego driving a lot of this. There was a lot of that at play and Ellison was an incredibly talented, but very, he defended his terrain with tenacity.

And that, that, that created a lot of, of, um, acrimony between him and other people. And, and not everybody in the entertainment industry is, uh, driven by ego, but there are certainly going to be those personalities. And so that played an element here where people were doing things because it was best for the show, but it wasn't best for what Ellison wanted out of his scripts or what he wanted for his time.

And so there was a lot of people involved in the production of the show, had differing opinions on it. And then people outside of production, just consumption of the show, view this as one of the better episodes. So, for me, I think the proof is in the pudding. It's awful, as a creator, to have somebody show up and say, Yeah, the vision you have, the drive you have to tell this, the way you're trying to tell it isn't working.

I know that from personal experience. It is a trying moment to have somebody show up and say, this thing that you created and you love it deeply and you care deeply about it. You aren't there yet. And it hurts. And, uh, where Ellison goes into like defense mode and like bravely stands his ground, I would say, um, right or wrong.

Uh, in my experience, I go the other direction. I go into a depressive mode and that's my experience with being told like, you need to rework this chapter. And he's like, cause I'm terrible. Uh, so imposter syndrome lives large in the Ferrell house. Yes. Yes. Yeah, our family photos are four actors pretending to be us.

That's what, um, that's what our family, our family, uh, is built out of. So taking a look at all the elements that are in place here, knowing the background of the production of the show being a little, Oh gosh, like you're going into terrain that's not really Star Trek, pulling it back in. Oh, it's not about drug dealing.

It's still a drug is involved. It's about madness born of the drug. It's McCoy and like all these moving parts come, come together and end up where they are here. I've already revealed how I feel about it. Where do you land on this episode as far as like, what kind of impact does the story have as a story? And then how do you emotionally connect or not connect to that story?

Oh, if you were going to ask me, what is Star Trek, the original series to me? This is the episode I talk about. This is my favorite episode of the original series, hands down. This is one of my favorite Star Trek episodes period of all the shows. It's like, and I think it's partly because of Harlan Ellison.

Like he had a great. structure for a story that had heart, it had emotion and feeling. As a viewer, you're in it. Like, you are in it. It's not just plot elements that are happening that you're watching unfold, it is you're feeling the emotional pull. Uh, and as goofy as the rewrite of making McCoy, like, jab himself and inject himself with cortisone that makes him go nutso, as goofy as that is, is goofy, it's kind of a MacGuffin.

It doesn't matter. It's like, it's just, just a little thing, tchotchke that happens. And then everything that unfolds from that is what's the good stuff. So for me, I kind of gloss over that aspect of it, which again, super goofy,

but what unfolds because of that is just tremendous television. It's tremendous sci fi. It is just, I don't know, chef's kiss. This is one of the most perfect episodes of the original series. Um, I, I have very little negative to say about it. So I, I can't, that's all I can say. In the past weeks, I've been like, eh, this episode's alright, it's kind of boring.

I do not feel that way about this episode because this storytelling transcends the 1960s set dressing, it transcends the 1960s acting, it transcends all of that stuff. It's just great storytelling. Um, so I love it. There was a point where I, as I started watching the episode, found myself stopping and saying like, wait a minute, isn't this a two parter?

I felt like it was a two parter. Like there's 10 minutes left. I'm like, how are they going to wrap this up? Because I'm like, how are they going to resolve everything more? And yeah, yeah. And I went into it, it was like the first three minutes and I was just like. This isn't a two parter. Like, I remember as a child that it felt like this was a movie.

It was a movie. And it was like, and like you said, we've been talking for the past several weeks and I've been landing more on the, um, I can turn off the 2024 brain a little bit more than Matt can when it comes to falling into the nostalgia of, of experiencing the show. So I'm a lot more comfortable and have more fun at times with the 1960s pacing, The kind of cardboard sets and, and, um, the reliance on somebody saying like, Oh, this is a thing, even though it doesn't look like a thing, trust me.

It's a thing. This one, I think, like you mentioned, Harlan Ellison created a story that was deeply rooted in personal connection of our protagonists that at this point we know incredibly well. Second, it is, I would argue it is as much a love story between Kirk and Spock. As it is between Keeler and Kirk.

Third, because it's taking place in the past, and it is a past that is beautifully and easily rendered in a 1960s soundstage. It doesn't have any of what has been happening for like the past six episodes, which have felt like, well, we're going to put different robes on these people and tell you it's a different planet.

And we're going to put on this thing that's another planet, but it looks like 19th century earth. Or we're going to like, there's none of that. It is just like, yeah, this is the earth that you would recognize as being the 1930s. So shorthand makes all of that very easy to explain. You don't need to say like, what is a soup kitchen?

You don't, you don't need any of that. It's just like, you see a mission, you go in, there's people who are out of work and homeless and they are in line to get food and you are like, you know what it is, no explanation needed. And then the final point is, I think it is lovingly directed and very, very lovingly acted.

I think Joan Collins is excellent. I think William Shatner. I mean, and we, we keep going around and around with the, like Shatner wasn't a bad actor. He was an actor of his era. This is the style of acting that was on television at this point. He's very good in this. He portrays a Kirk that you don't see in other episodes.

And eventually Kirk becomes the landing on the planet and like, Hey girl, like we're here, he turns to Spock and he's just like, I, I think I'm falling in love with Keeler and Spock is just like, Jim, she's got to die. And the moments between the two of them, they spend so much of this episode alone. The officiousness of their relationship drops.

And they're both on this mission, which is so critical. And one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Trek is when Keeler is talking to the two of them in the furnace room and has just discovered that Spock had stolen those tools. Do you want to talk a little bit about that scene? That scene is, this is one of those things where we talk about like the, when you talk about like, who is Kirk?

Who is Spock? What's this relationship? What does it mean? This scene is one of those scenes that should be popping in your head because it's like, she's making comments about the two of them. That is just like, laying down like the script Bible for the entire show of like who these two men are who they mean to each other I love when she says of Spock You you look like you have been at his has always been at his side and always will be It was just like, oh, oh, hits me right in the, cause we know, we know the 50, 60 years that have passed and we're like, oh, that is so true.

Oh, you just, you just nailed it, lady. In Out of time, we just talked about this, the unification short, which is all about that. It is. And, and when he, he makes the comment to the captain, when he says one final thing about what they're about to do, and she says, captain, even when you don't say it, you do. And it was just like, Oh, again, like plucking those little heartstrings of mine for loving these characters.

Um, it's just this wonderful assessment of what she thinks of Kirk, who he is, what he represents, what Spock represents. And she's just like nailing it, like hitting the, not even the head of the nail, but the pin head. Like she's just like, so spot on how this resonates, not just for this episode, but for the entire series.

And that's what's impressive to me. It's like. Yeah. The ethos of these two characters are so true to what she says in this one episode forever. To the movies, to this next season's, it's kind of astounding. And I just, it just, for me, it hit all those soft spots I have. He began writing this so early. I can't help but wonder how much of what was in this script when it got into Roddenberry's hands and they were early in production of the very first episodes.

How much of this was like, Oh, this is what we need to keep in mind. This is their relationship because the entire thing, like there was an interview I saw just a few days ago, um, I stumbled upon an interview with Leonard Nimoy and he was talking about this episode and he was talking about how much he likes this episode and said the thing that stands, one of the things that stands out to him is it's not a happy ending.

No, I love the final line of this episode and Nimoy actually referenced it. He says Shatner's last line, Kirk's last line is, let's get the hell out of here. He's a broken man at the end of this. And it is, like I said, it's a love story between Kirk and Keeler. It's a love story between Spock and Kirk. And it's a love story between the vision of the future and history. And that's very metaphysical. It's very existential to say that there needs to be a love story between the future and the past. And that the way that that love story manifests is in the present. And that's Keeler and that's Kirk and that's Spock. She is as much a depiction of the vision of what the future can be as Kirk and Spock are.

So when she stands up on that stage, some of the moments of this that are so important and resonate so deeply are about, and this goes back to when is Star Trek the best? Is it when the lasers are firing? No, it's when people are standing around talking about what they believe in. You have her standing on the stage and saying, I believe there's a future where we will not have want.

And Kirk and Spock are sitting there. Like, well, she's got a vision and we're it. And it's such a, uh, humanizing moment because it becomes Kirk and Spock are not heroes of the story. They simply are manifestations of an ideal. And that is, uh, Incredible for a show in the 1960s that was airing at the same time as a show about Tarzan, the educated savage, who was returning to this African nation in order to teach people how to live.

At the same time, this show was being made. It's the, it's what makes Star Trek, Star Trek. It's the whole dealing with ethical dilemmas and morality and, Starfleet is supposed to be the best of us. It's like, it's what, what is humanity's potential? That's what all this represents. And so even in a situation where you're in love with this woman, you want to save her, she has to die because it's the right thing to do.

And they do it. And then you have to deal with the ramifications of that. That's incredible storytelling. It's tragic, but it also is showing kind of the incredible potential of putting others above self and the selflessness. It's like, you see that again and again. I'm a next generation guy. So it's like, you see that again and again, next generation with Picard, like four lights episode, the one where he lives that entire life inside the satellite and learns how to play the flute and all that kind of stuff.

And then he, it's, that's a tragic story too. He comes out having lost all those friends and family, and he's a changed man. And then that resonates for the rest of the show. It's like it makes him who he is. And this is the same thing for Kirk. It's like, here's this moral dilemma he has to deal with of the woman he's in love with and letting her die.

That is to me what Star Trek is best at. Um, Drumhead, you know, that's another great episode. It's like all these moral dilemmas, where people are standing up for what they believe in, talking about it, and yes, Star Trek is the, everybody's sitting around in a room talking, that's when it's at its finest, in my opinion.

Um, yeah. And this episode does that in spades. And this episode does what many of those other ones don't do, which is, it shows somebody dying for those ideals. And that is, that's rare in television. And it's a very, to me, brings with it Harlan Ellison's background as a writer for The Outer Limits. This has an Outer Limits ending to me.

Where it is unsettling while also being affirming, like you know the right thing has happened and it hurts. And that's, that's really, um, rare in a TV series that ostensibly was an action adventure show. The one issue, I remember when I was in grad school and I was in a directing class, we were talking about, you film your, your movie or show, and then you have to edit it.

And one of the pieces of advice this, this teacher gave us was if there's a scene in your edit that you're just in love with, like this is the best scene. It's so good. I love the way the sequence came together. He said, cut it, get rid of it. You need to cut it. And he said, the reason for that is it's going to stand out in a way that's going to make everything else look less than.

And you have to make sure that everything is quality, not just one piece, because that one piece that is like you're so in love with, you may be blind to a better way to make everything look better. And I thought it was kind of a weird piece of advice, but I kind of understood it. And to me, this episode is that for the first season of the original series.

The writing of this episode is so good to me, it makes every other episode look like shit. Like there have been good episodes, but like every week when I've been saying like, ah, this episode's all right, it's a little boring, this episode's all right. This episode is so far ahead of everything else. I think it's Harlan Ellison.

The reason why it's that good. Um, yeah, but it kind of makes me a little sad that they couldn't do that consistently every single week or have, you know, half the episodes or a third of the episodes are of this quality. It's just, this is the only one of this quality in the first season. Period. It's like we still have a couple to go, but there is, there's nothing else that touches this one.

And so for me, it kind of makes me sad that Roddenberry couldn't rope in more sci fi writers of this caliber to do more work on the show to really elevate the entire show. Yeah, at this point, we've reached the end of the first season, and we've seen that there was a bit of a scramble through the first season of great ambition, and then difficulty reaching that ambition, having to restructure, bringing in a producer, Gene L Coon, to take over some of the stuff that was a distraction for Roddenberry, uh, episodes like this that required so many rewrites, it ended up being delayed in production multiple times and went 50, 000 over budget, which in 1967 would have been quite a stretch.

And the, like you said, it does create bump up in quality that feels almost distracting. And even some of the lighter moments, like when they are eating at the soup kitchen for the first time and Keeler gets up to make her speech and the character known only as Rodent in the script is making disparaging remarks about first, the fact that they have to listen to her talk at all, and second of all, starts going into, yeah, but she's not bad to look at.

And you get the very humorous moment of Kirk saying, shut up. Just, I, I actually had a note in my thing about that is I thought that was a great nod to show his, his escalation of his feelings towards her. Because when they first meet, he does not come across as like flirty McFlirt face with her. She's doing a little light flirting with him.

He's not really flirting with her. He's being professional. He's being the captain and she walks away he turns back to Spock and they get right back to talking about what they have to do and It's that scene is the first time where you can tell, oh no, don't, he's, he's trying to protect her a little bit of like, I don't want to hear your misogynist bullshit.

Just shut up. Just shut up. I thought his, the way he did it was so deadpan, so perfect. And it wasn't just a moony eyed, I love you. It was just, it was kind of just the escalation up. And so the way that they evolved that relationship between the two of them. Again, pitch perfect storytelling and you doing that in like a 40x minute, 50 minute episode It's kind of astonishing because you said it feels like a movie because the escalation of their relationship felt very natural and yet it's condensed into like a 15 minute time frame, but yet it feels like you've just watched an hour and it's it's just I don't know I just I am so in love with how they told the story.

Because it's, it did not feel rushed. It did not feel, yeah. Anything was given shorthand. And that scene I just absolutely loved shut up. And then the humor of the episode as well. The episode has the humor of, they get caught by the cops after stealing the clothing. And Spock has to say, oh yes, that's unfortunate.

Let me help you with that. And neck pinches the cop in front of a crowd, . And they, they just have to run. And it's, you hear whistles in the background and, and they're fleeing with arm loads of clothing. Um. And then there is, it's not, it doesn't even add anything. It is something that is completely unnecessary.

But I love the sequence when McCoy arrives and meets Rodent in the alleyway. And then Rodent steals his phaser. Now why McCoy had a phaser on him on the bridge is never made clear, but he ends up vaporizing himself and it is completely superfluous. It doesn't add anything to anything. It's not like Rodent was doing something that deserved death.

He was a jerk and he was stealing things, but it was the Great Depression. Like the man needs to, like, he steals a bottle of milk. And then he steals what might be something valuable on this guy who just passed out in front of him. Like, people did that. People do that today. Doesn't deserve death, but then he goes 15 feet away and then and it's remarkably easy to kill yourself with a phaser apparently. Apparently all you have to do is like click the phaser at the same time and destroys the phaser. Yes. He like overloads it accidentally just by pushing a couple of random buttons. And I'm like, If that's the way things worked in my household, I'd be dead a thousand times over. Like, how does this coffee maker work again?

Which button? Oh, no. Poor rodent. But all of these elements add up to a lot of highs and lows that create such a marvelous, Um, rendering of this story that, like you've said, like I've said, feels bigger than it actually is, has a bigger footprint than a lot of other episodes in the first season. And I like a lot of these other episodes that we've talked about, but this one does stand head and shoulders above all of them at this point in our rewatch. So before we end our episode, Matt, is there anything else you wanted to talk about, about this or anything else having to do with the show? No, I think I've said everything I want to say. Cause I just love this episode. That's it. So as usual, Listeners and viewers, is there anything you feel like we've missed out on?

Is there something that stood out to you as worth talking about? Please jump into the comments and let us know. We look forward to hearing from you. And as you know, every week we love diving into the comments and seeing what you've had to say and leaving a comment, even if it's just a, Hey, how's it going?

Really does help support the podcast because the magic of YouTube is that interaction adds to the algorithm. And nobody can control that. That's, that's the world that this podcast lives in. You can control that. That's true. You. You. You, John. You, Dave. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Susan. You control the algorithm.

Yeah. So jump into the comments, leave a comment, leave a like, subscribe if you're not already subscribed and share us with your friends. Those are easy ways for you to support us. And we appreciate your help. And if you'd like to more directly support us, you can, of course, go to trekintime. show and click the join button there.

It allows you to throw some coins at our heads. We appreciate the welts. And then we get down to the heavy, heavy business of talking about Dame Joan Collins. Once again, thank you everybody for taking the time to watch or listen, and we will talk to you next time. And Oh, next time, what are we going to be watching, Matt?

Well, yes, it's a little episode called Operation Colon Annihilate. Wrong answers only. Jump into the comments. You know how to do it. Yeah. You know who I'm looking at, Mark. Talk to you all later. Chop chop, Mark. Have a good week. Chop chop.