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How to make a living while you’re making a difference.
A weekly show for independent professionals who want to go from six-figures to seven while increasing their impact on the world.
0:00:00
Hello, and welcome to the Business of Authority. I'm Jonathan Stark. And I'm Rochelle Moulton. And today, we're going to consider cold outreach what it is, when to do it, and how to do it. Yes. Gold outreach. To your listeners, I'm sure that struck fear in your heart so many people just tremble at the idea of cold outreach, but we're here to tell you that it's not all bad. It could be fun, in fact. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I wouldn't wanna spend my whole day doing just that, but I it's it's really a fun part of building an expertise business. Yeah. And it works. So there's that. Oh, yeah. There's that. Yeah. Cool.
0:00:41
Let's start off by defining the term cold outreach. How would you define it for yourself or your clients? I think of it as anytime I need to reach out to someone that I don't know. Mhmm. Just simple as that, that I don't already know. Exactly the same definition. It's like you're walking up to a stranger and sticking your hand out saying, hi. Hi. I'm Rochelle. Exactly. What's your name? Right. And so as a as a junior high wallflower at the dance, I understand why that would be nerve wracking to people. And I know that I know that lots of people I talk to, especially ones if I if we're talking about this, maybe in one of my Slack rooms or something, there's always gonna be people who are including me, that can rattle off a hundred examples of absolutely atrocious cold outreach that that they get that their their inbox just fills up with every day. Mhmm. And especially if you have a podcast. So it's it's constant and it's annoying and and you don't wanna be like that. And so my my response to that is, like, well, don't be like that, but it doesn't mean you can't email someone that you don't know. Or you can't DM someone on Twitter that you don't know or or LinkedIn or Instagram or wherever you are. It's because you you probably I know I also get stuff that I don't lump into cold outreach because I'm glad they emailed.
0:02:04
I'm glad they did. Exactly. Exactly. It's kind of like you think about those two situations and those terrible ones, the visual is a giant x over those. Right? Yeah. And then the other ones are, you know, think about what are the cold emails you've got that you are half be to receive. Yeah. If if that will help you break through this idea that not all cold outreach is bad. Yeah. Like, imagine an acquisitions editor from a big publisher sent you an email and said, hey, we'd like to talk about doing a book with you. That's cold outreach. Yeah. We'd love to have that in our inbox. Wouldn't we? It's cold outreach. Right? And and what's the difference? The difference is they're not trying to take something from you. They are sending a highly relevant message to you for very specific reason. It's it's just super relevant and it's potentially mutually beneficial.
0:02:55
Versus people that come that are just constantly barraging, let's just use the podcast example, constantly barraging you with a thousand fifteen hundred word email, introducing you to Tyler Bylar who's made a billion dollars, and it's like, he would really love to come on your show and share your audience will be so glad you have. And it's like, I don't even read them. I don't even open them anymore. Yeah. Right? Those are those are just take, take, take, take, take. Well, there's also people who don't do their homework, you know. That's what I mean. Right? Yeah. People who send me something that's like, oh, so and so can write this. Great article about, I don't know, some new technology nobody's ever heard of. I'm like, I did you look my stuff. Have you ever seen a guest article? Have you ever seen me right about breaking technology? Like, no. So Yeah. So those those are pretty easy to just delete. And those are the ones with the x over their face. Right. Right. So you wanna be more like the acquisitions that are from a big publisher.
0:03:56
So, like, what's in it for the recipient basically? It's like, is is this mutually beneficial or potentially mutually beneficial? So okay. So it's so if it's just emailing someone who doesn't know you, then and there's good ways to do that and bad ways to do that. Then when does it make sense for video listener or Eurishal or me or our students or anybody like that, when does it make sense to do cold outreach? Well, I mean, if if we pile on what we just said, then the time that it makes the most sense is when you have something that's potentially, mutually beneficial. And so that's not like pitching something that you just maybe thought of yesterday, but it is about figuring out where your interests meet. And to me, that that's when it gets interesting. So if I if I wanna be on somebody's podcast, that's that's a great opportunity because we both win assuming that I'm a good fit for their audience. We both win. Right? I get broader exposure, they get the content that they need in their audience, learn something.
0:05:05
So it's really finding, instead of thinking about it just from your own point of view, is looking at from the other side. What will they get out of that? Which by the way, when we talk about how to do it, will help you craft the email that you you you wanna reach out to them with? Yeah. Absolutely. So I find that it feels like I I don't track this, but it feels like when I'm most effective at, let's call it, introducing myself to someone over email or social media. It's most effective when I've when I've already accidentally done my homework. So what do I mean by that? So like Accidentally. Right.
0:05:44
So it's not like I said, okay. Here's a list of, you know, I did a Google search for top ten business books of twenty twenty two or twenty twenty three. And I'm just gonna email every single author and see if they wanna come on the podcast just blindly. Like, I've never read the books. I don't recognize their names. I don't know what they're about and I just do it. That that would be that's not gonna work. Like, that's not what I'm talking about. The thing that I am talking about is when a bunch of people recommend some new book, you know, people whose opinion aligns with mine. And I'm like, I should check this out. I'm reading it I hit I'm I'm loving it. I hit a passage that blows my mind. I put the book down and I at message the Earl DM the author on Twitter and say, like, OMG, I'm reading title of book right now.
0:06:33
In chapter four, you said this thing about, I don't know, outly billing that absolutely blew my mind. I've been thinking about this for ten years and this is a new angle. It never occurred to me before. I'd love to have you on ditching hourly or business of authority. To talk about that specific point. If there's any interest, let me know, and I'll tell you the details. It's fine to say, no. Totally understand if you don't have time to do it, but I just wanted to say thanks for the buck.
0:06:53
Like, Does that seem like spam? It doesn't seem like spam to me. But that's what I mean by accidentally doing my homework. Like, I I didn't start with I wanna tricks, Seth Godin, into coming on the show. Like, I've never heard of Seth Godfrey or Mark, by the way. Yeah. Of course. But it's it's not like that. It's like I I have this detector mechanism in the back of my mind that when it's often an author with me, it's it's mostly happens when I'm reading a book and I'm like, ugh, this is so good. Yeah. Sometimes it's from a video. Sometimes it's from a video that someone sent me.
0:07:29
But I don't think it occurs to everyone to just, like, I'm gonna email the author. You know? Like, they might think, oh, I'm gonna give this a good review on Amazon or or at the end of an audible book when it's, like, right, this review. And then do it. But it's, like, no. I'm emailing the person. Like the actual author and and thanking them for it, telling them exactly what blew my mind. And guess what?authors love that. Oh, of course we do. Like the whole point of reading the book.
0:07:56
Well, and the other thing about that example is that you pick something very specific. So you didn't say, Oh, and and understand. The author would still be pleased with, oh, I love to book and you did these five different chapters about X and it was great. This is short and sweet, and says, you know, love the book, but in particular, that place in chapter five, where you said, bloomy away would love to have you on the show. And and that's another thing that will always help you get somebody to say yes is when you make it so specific -- Mhmm. -- like that.
0:08:33
It's obvious that somebody didn't just say, oh, I loved your book. Would you come on my show? I'm like, didn't read it, did you? Right. Or you would have said something about what was in it. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's fine if it's somebody, if it's like a small ask. But if it's a big name, you're not gonna get them by saying, oh, if the book was so nice, would you come on the show? Yeah. Totally. I mean, it was when Seth did come on, this show, I brought up a really specific point.
0:09:00
I didn't bring it up in advance. I brought it up on the show about a point he made in Icra's deception. And and he made a joke about how he's like, oh, well, you know, whenever you ask me a question about a a book I wrote ten years ago, it might be hard for me to answer. But in this case, I do happen to remember that part. And and if you're reaching out to an author, if we just stick with that example for a second, If somebody reached out to me and was like, hey, I'd love to talk to you about hourly billing is not on my show or something like that.
0:09:27
I would be like, I don't even remember what's in that book. You know, exactly. It's been eight years since I wrote it. I don't read it every day. You don't. That Right? It's just like -- Yeah. -- it's just it was a a moment in time. Right? And -- Mhmm. -- and, like, when I went back into the audiobook for it a couple years later, I was like, oh, I didn't remember this. I don't remember writing this. Like, there are things in it. I don't even remember writing because some of this stuff I wrote and like like five years before the book came out. So point being, if if you trigger almost like the their memory and be like, oh, yeah. I remember writing that. I remember that was I thought that was a good insight too.
0:10:09
I I agree that that was a good insight and you picked up on it. Person who's reaching out to me. And I could talk about that one thing for forty five minutes easily. You know, it's just such an easy yes. And that I mean, that's what we're going for. Right? When you do this stuff, you want to make it an easy yes. In fact, I I like to think that's the goal.
0:10:28
So if we're talking about when to do it, I would say, you know, when inspiration strikes and you're you're sort of reading something, listening to a podcast, And you're like, oh, that would be even if you just reach out to the person, not to invite them, not to ask them to do anything, but just let them know that that you were, you know, that it was great or whatever you whatever is on your mind. Like my brother sent me my brother Matt sent me a link to a a, like, a scientific podcast isn't really nothing I mean, not that a scientist couldn't be an authority, but it was very technical. It was not our kind of audience. It's not someone that we would have on this show. And I was literally, like, I just gotta email this person.
0:11:07
Like, this this woman in the UK, and and so I just looked her up. Emailed her, asked her a question that was, you know, I set the context from the the episode because I know she probably went on a hundred shows and doesn't remember being on this specific one. Or what she said certainly. So I was like, oh, on this show, when you're talking to these people, they asked you this. You said this. And my question is and I had a question. It'd be okay if I ask. Yeah. Sure. And it was like, you know, well, how do I know how do I know everything is in a hallucination? Like, how do you check that? Right? And she was like, good question. You know?
0:11:39
So we ended up in this little conversation that that spawned because in the moment, I was excited about this idea. I had this desire to ask this question. And and in the in the person, it was total cold outreach. Totally by our definition. And she responded, engaged, seemed happy about it, sent me, like, here's some more stuff you could read about it. It was it's really cool.
0:12:04
And, you know, I could probably reach back on that thread if there was some future reason to or some mutually beneficial thing or maybe it did make sense to have her come on TBOA. Say like, hey. Remember me about it? You know, it's it's not evil. And and so when to do it?
0:12:19
A great time to do it is when you're inspired by something like this. You know, it could be a a lot of other things besides inviting people on the show or asking them a question or something like that, but it's it's the beginning. It's the the fledgling little spark of a relationship. Yes. And what's nice about that is is that you're not at asking a big ask. It's a you're genuinely interested and think about it from from your own perspective from listeners perspective, which is It's in your area of expertise. If you're that woman getting this, you're intrigued by that. Somebody has a question you know, maybe they come at this a different way. Jonathan's not a scientist. He thinks about it differently. And you can have a really amazing conversation and most ex spurts are going to welcome that kind of conversation.
0:13:08
But I also like to like to do, you know, with talked on the show about the listening tours that I've done. I think I've done three now. I think of the listening tour that way too. They were not everyone was someone that I didn't know, but but a number of them were or they were somebody that was in on my list, Now, may that's cheating? Maybe that's not cold outreach. Somebody that was on my list that I'd never spoken to didn't really know them.
0:13:34
And there, the listening tour, the idea there is that you're designing something, you're creating a product, or a membership, or a service of some kind, and you just wanna get input. Not so much on the thing, but you wanna find out, you know, what are they thinking about? What are what keeps them up at night? What kinds of problems do they have? Kinds of solutions that they tried, what didn't work, what would be kind of the magical solution if they could just, like, you know, wave their magic wand and it would appear. And so that's a situation where you're getting a lot. Right? And when I did them, I was getting a lot from the people that I talked to.
0:14:15
But the flip side that was really interesting to me is that I think most of the people that I talked to, I I would wish all, but I'm I'm gonna say most to be on the safe side. Felt like they were getting something too because we were talking about their problems. Mhmm. Right? And it was and there's just something about most humans where we love to be consulted for our opinions on things. Yes. Thank you. We just and we'll we'll spend more time on the phone with you if you keep asking our opinions. Now if you're gonna lecture to us, uh-uh, I'm gonna hang up. Yep. But yeah. And so even when you think kind of it's all about you, it really isn't. I mean, the reason I was asking people was because I wanted to create something that would work for them. And yeah, well, I didn't wanna create you know, a bomb for myself either, but it was it really was about them.
0:15:05
Tell me about this. How did this work? What did you try? What happened when you tried that? What what worked? Was there a piece of this that you you're still doing today? And you come and get inside their heads, but never there's never a pitch. I'm never saying buy this thing. Right. I'm I'm saying thank you for your input. Yep. And and, you know, and then the clothes is usually would it be okay if I pinged you, if I had a quick question on something or if I wanted a quick reaction. Oh, of course. Of course. But I wouldn't call them again. It wouldn't take up more of their time. Mhmm. Yeah.
0:15:38
I have a similar story back when I was I was sort of testing the target credit unions as a target market. Toward the end of my consulting business. And I cannot tell you how many people jumped on the phone with me and just spilled their guts because like, I had I had the best luck with people who retired from the industry. Right? Which is great because they were like -- Yeah. -- you know, like, retired credit union presidents and I was because I was looking to the services that I was selling would be at the highest level of the organization. So, you know, probably the president someone up there, CTO maybe.
0:16:14
And and I would I would connect with these folks. And I'd say something along I can actually go back and look maybe I will. But I'd connect with them and essentially the quest you have to make it nonthreatening because they're probably afraid of getting a pitch. But since these folks are retired, there was nothing they weren't the customer, but they used to be the customer. So they they just know everything. And so I would say something along the lines of of I was like, hey, I'm thinking about creating a product. It is, you know, thinking about creating a product for credit union presidents. Right? So it so not there's nothing to sell. Even and these people wouldn't buy anyway. So I'm thinking about creating something for Credit Union presidents, but I don't wanna solve a problem that doesn't exist. So I would love to get just a couple of minutes where I could get your expert opinion about, you know, just talk to to you about some of the challenges that you face with regard to technology in the space or maybe I even said at the time mobile.
0:17:08
And, you know, I had people call me from the car. They're like, oh, we're on the way to the summer house but the figure would be you know, because they're, like, really excited. I I can you know, I don't know a lot of retired people. But, like, my dad, he he'd pick up the phone if somebody wanted to ask him details about the the newspaper industry or something where he was in a second. To real to feel like their expertise is relevant and needed. It's useful. So really good. Yeah. Right. So there's something in it for them. I got a lot out of it too. In fact, what I got out of it was like wrong industry. Don't pick this one. But but it was like, super but it was, you know, finished the call. Call me any you know, like, sign up for a fifteen minute call, end up on the phone for forty five minutes. I've got, like, five pages and notes. And they're like, call me any time that you can use this number.
0:17:56
I had one guy that was still still in house, still an employee, and we jumped on the phone and within a couple of minutes he goes, hold on a second. I hear him get up from his desk, close his office door and come back and he's like, okay, here's what's really going on. And it's totally totally, like, you know, vented to someone who cared. Like, I legitimately cared. I was this is, like, I was curious about it. And this guy was very frustrated. Anyway, it was It was it was hilarious.
0:18:30
There's another moral in there though. Right? Because here was a guy. Think about this. He's the head of this credit union. He can't talk to anybody internally. Mhmm. If he's lucky, he maybe has a service provider he can talk to. But even then, he's probably kinda careful about that.
0:18:44
And so here comes somebody from the outside, an expert in their field saying, what do you think? And I think we underestimate this. As consultants especially and especially if you're dealing with the top of the house. It it it doesn't matter the size of the organization. If you're dealing with soloists or you're dealing with you know, CEOs of Fortune five hundred companies, that is a lonely job. Mhmm. They are hard jobs and they are lonely. And if all you do is just listen and ask some questions, you'll be amazed. Reception. Right. There is something in there for them. And and, you know, that's maybe an extreme example because they were retired. So they most of them were And so, you know, that was a little bit different. But if somebody is actively in in the industry, strict actively working, has an organization, I guarantee they have frustrations, and there's not a lot of places for them to just vomited out. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
0:19:46
So so if we're talking about when to inspiration, you know, maybe when you're inspired by something someone said, that's a good time to reach out to them. Or if you legitimately are designing some new product or service. You have an idea, you've got an hypothesis. That's a great time to reach out to people and and do that sort of thing. So it's like it's like when to do this? Well, before I build something is a good time to do it when you're thinking about building something.
0:20:12
Pretty much I think the other thing that some people might be wondering is, so should I I hate that word should. Should I have cold outreach somehow built into my business model. And and, you know, I wanna talk about that a little bit because I've worked with some people who, especially when they pivoted, what they did at the beginning of that pivot is they did include some cold outreach because they very specifically identified who their deal client was. Mhmm. And and often what they did was, you know, they basically trolled LinkedIn, which is a great place because you have titles and organizations. You could do some pretty interesting searches there. And then had a program of cold outreach cold calls, one might call them. Mhmm.
0:20:58
But they're very specific because you've identified your ideal client. And then you can create a plan around that that you just work a little bit at a time. Like, whether you do a little bit every day or just a little bit every week, maybe you, you know, you do two emails a week to people that you don't know. Mhmm. That doesn't sound really hard. Does it? Right.
0:21:21
Well, so you just gave me a really visual tangible idea for a really tangible metaphor, which was if imagine if you treat the outreach like a gift. Right? So imagine if you were trying to buy a housewarming gift for someone you've never met, you don't know, you you don't know what you literally know nothing about them. You probably odds are high that you'd buy something that they probably just wanna throw away. Right? If you just sent them a house when we go, hey, you know, congratulations on the new house. Here's a smag toaster. Right? Mhmm. And and they just feel like, like, no. This doesn't match our style. I already have a toaster. I have a better toaster. The odds of you giving something that they're gonna be really excited about are infantismal.
0:22:04
So if but the difference is, now think of some of that you know extremely well and you could buy a housewarming gift for or they give whatever it is, like something. And then -- Mhmm. -- they open it up. And, like, oh, this is perfect. How did you know? How did you know? Right? That's what you're shooting for. You're shooting for that. How did you know?
0:22:25
Which is I think if you if you listen back to a listener to the conversation so far. That is if there's a trick to this, it's that, like, where it's perfect. Like, the thing that you're presenting them with just lights them up. They're like, yeah, I would love to talk about the problems of, you know, tech problems in Credit Union space or yeah, I'd love to talk about, you know, that passage of that highly specific passage on page seventy two of my book. It's like the perfect housewarming gift for someone and they're just can't believe how good it is. And so to them, it doesn't feel like spammy or or cold calling or pushy or desperate. Because you clearly you somehow you know them. Somehow, you you you manage to figure that out, and it sets you apart from hundred other garbage emails they get every day. Yeah. You you get me. Right. Exactly.
0:23:15
I mean, that's and well, that's and that's why we talk constantly about deciding what kind of profile to focus on. Like, what's your client avatar? Because everybody in that space is not going to be the same. But what you will learn is the tighter you make that ideal client, the easier it is to guess, and you you really can do more than guess. But the easier it is to guess what's gonna light them up. Mhmm. And it's not very much research that you need to do, and most of it's gonna be on LinkedIn, especially if somebody's commenting on posts or posting their own. You get a sense for their hot buttons And, you know, you can you can stock them basically, legally. You can stock stock their content so that you get to know who they are. Yep. Yeah. Exactly.
0:24:02
And so that that when you do send that present, it is received in that way. It is received in that spirit. Was like, wow, this person really gets me. Well, and that's that's the case. I've just I I love the metaphor because I'm thinking I've met a couple of people where when there's a house warming, they always buy the same gift. Like whoever it is, it's the same gift. It doesn't matter. Right. If it's not their style, it doesn't matter if they have a better toaster, it's always the same gift. And you don't wanna be that person. Right. You wanna be the one that -- It's thought was -- now Yes. Well, it's not thought less because they are showing up with a gift, but they haven't done a lot of preparation for it. They haven't developed or demonstrated a level of care -- Right. -- that the perfect gift demonstrates. Yeah. It's like walking in with with your favorite bottle of whiskey and saying, hey, let's open it now. Yeah. And guess what? It's a sober household. Yeah. Right. Giving your wife a bowling ball with your initials on it. It's like homer Simpson. Yeah. So okay.
0:25:07
So there's there's one more when to do it thing that that you were starting to allude to before I interrupted with the the Housewarming Gift idea, which is The best time to do it is when you don't need to do it, when it can be organic and serendipitous and genuine and kind of, like, just in general, marketing in general, like, when should you do it? Well, every day, a little bit, or at least every week. So if you the the best time to do it, let's put it like that. The best time to do it is when you really don't need anything from the other person. Like, you're not looking for like, a a a client. I I got fired. I need business. I need work right now.
0:25:44
Like, that's the a bad time to do it. Or that's a -- Yeah. -- a hard time to do it well when you are genuinely desperate for money. I mean, that's like a really hard time to do it well. Yeah. You you just can't wreak of desperation. And I'm sorry if you're looking for to put food on the table from cold outreach, that's what it feels like to the person because they see it even if you don't. You can still see it. They feel it. Yeah. And it it just leaches through. Mhmm. Yeah. You're just a little too anxious. Yeah.
0:26:15
Well, and, you know, and I kinda wanna go back to, I'm thinking about, like, if you're just starting your consulting business and you're kind of calling around to the people in your geographic area. Like, oh, you know, I have a a web design consulting business. That's going to be hard to get those kinds of calls. If you say instead, well, I'm doing web design services for veterinarians, who want to grow their business, that's different. And you're not gonna go to an architect. You're not gonna go to you know, a a retail shop in town. You're gonna be very selective and you're going to give them something through your conversation that's different than you would have had before.
0:26:58
So this focus is really important. This is not about, oh, let me just, like, shoot you know, a hundred bullets out of out of a cannon. No. If bullets don't go out of a cannon, a hundred balls out of a cannon. And let's see, you know, which ones which ones you know, fall where I want them to. Yeah. This is this is really much more thoughtful and much more one to one. Yeah.
0:27:20
For for especially for solar like because let's be honest, I I've interviewed people who, you know, have, like, dev shop with, you know, a team of say, five people building stuff in a team of twenty salespeople. So like four x the number of sales of salespeople than the people who do the actual work and they smile and dial all day and it works. Like, you know, they they get one hit out of a hundred and of those hits they get a phone they get somebody on the phone, and maybe they get one hit out of a hundred on those. And that's enough. But, you know, clogging up the phone lines with untargeted irrelevant interruptions that the vast majority of people are annoyed by. It still works, but just turns into a gross kind of numbers game.
0:28:03
And Oh, and the the brand of that organization, if it has a name that's at all memorable -- Yeah. -- they're gonna be people who just, you know, see that that that logo with a crossed big x over it. Right. But it but it's not that they don't do good work. They probably do, but it's the it's the in Maybe. Maybe. Right? It's it's just not relevant. That's yeah. That's that becomes the trust factor.
0:28:27
If I have somebody spamming me, I'm not gonna believe that they have good work, and I'm not gonna bother to find out, get out of my phase. Go away. Agreed. Right. Right. Right. So you're probably gonna you're probably gonna reach price buyers, you probably the yeses you're gonna get are probably gonna be from price buyers who don't really differentiate you from anybody else. It's just like you are the one that showed up and it's like, yeah, that's fine. But I could look around if I wanted to, but you emailed me first. So, like, let's just get this over with. And I do have a pressing need right now. So it's just a convenience factor.
0:29:00
But the the the point is, like, no one listening to this probably wants to do that. And even if they wanted to, I don't think it'd be really hard. It'd be a very unique personality that could, as a soloist, spend the time to do that, to put up the kind of numbers you need to put up for it to actually work and not get massively demoralized in the process. Yeah. I I've never seen a solo model do that. Right. I've seen soloists try to hire somebody who does that kind of like a backroom of salespeople. And that's mostly been not successful. Yeah. Me too. Sort of, like, you can hire robots to, like, connect with people on LinkedIn and stuff and it it I I know that there have been some successes, but none nobody that's ever worked with me has had success with that. So yeah.
0:29:45
So what does it mean? It means like you need to do your homework, you need to be you need to pick out that housewarming gift that makes the person's eyes light up. So what does that take? Probably, it's I mean, really, this is one of the big reasons why Nation done on a a very specific target market or ideal buyer. Makes your life a lot easier because it makes a lot easier to pick out that present for them. Mhmm.
0:30:09
So let's let's talk about you know, we've we've had some examples along the way about tactically how you might want to do this. But what are some what are some ways that we haven't brought up where someone could build this into their process or maybe if they were in a cash flow crunch like, you know, project gets canceled in the middle and all of a sudden they're at loose ends. Or they were sure a project was gonna come through, but then it didn't at the last minute and they're like, oh, I got an empty month, you know, what do I do? So what are some things that you have seen, just tactically speaking, that can work for people like us where you're initiating the conversation, but in a way that makes it clear that you are not desperate. Well, I mean, the first thing I always try to do is I I try to turn cold to warm. Like, is there a way in this I'm assuming here that that you have a a business model that has a particular kind of designated client, and you could even make a list of who those people are. And it's a big enough list to create a business, but not so huge that it's unwieldy. And so I would look and Again, LinkedIn is great for this because you can see how you know people.
0:31:25
So if you wanted to get to the CFO of a particular company, you could look and see whose connect and or how you're connected to them. And depending on the strength of of that relationship, then I might try to piggyback on top of that. And I say the strength of relationship, the strength of my relationship with the intermediary and the intermediary with them. So an example would be, let's say, it's CFO of Procter and Gamble. And I see that a sort of decent, you know, business friend acquaintance of mine is in the financial department at P and G. I'd probably try to go through them first. Because they're in the organization, they probably know them. And they're at the very least, they're gonna be able to tell me whether my idea has any legs or not. So it's like looking for a way to make it warmer.
0:32:20
And I had I felt a little awkward doing this, but I had client I worked with a number of years ago, reach out to me and say, hey, I see you're connected to so and so at this company. Do you know her well enough to do an introduction? And I wrote back and said, listen, I'm happy to make the introduction, but I met her once in person over ten years ago, but it was an introduction from a very good friend of both of ours I've not had any interaction with her since. So, you know, I'd have to I'd have to do the awkward introduction, but I'm willing to do it. And so he wrote back and said, let's give it a try. So I gave it a try and it went nowhere. And And so it was one of those things where it it's like I still tried because I don't really know this woman and I thought she could benefit from this thing that this guy was doing. And it's it's a really cool thing that he's doing and it's possible. So it's like that's that's what he did is he was looking for how can I get to people like this woman and, you know, and you shared a little bit of a strategy with me? But those are the kinds of things where if you can get it warm, give it a try. Mhmm. Why not? Yeah.
0:33:34
I had a a a guy named Corey Quinn on ditching hourly recently. A couple of weeks ago, I think. And he was the CMO of a digital marketing agency called Scorpion that that niched way down. So they had a million different kinds of clients, of course, like like many digital marketing agencies might they niched way down on personal injury lawyers like Saul Goodman and and then came up with a strategy to warm up the relationships before they their their initial cold outreach, stone cold outreach was sending a really expensive box of chocolate chip cookies. And, like, premium, the whole experience, like, on wrap, the the open the unboxing experience was, like, Apple level premium experience. Mhmm. Very memorable. They spent a million dollars sending out what he called lumpy mail to, you know, so, you know, people listening aren't gonna do that.
0:34:33
But to your point about warming up the the, like, literally starting with a gift. You know. Yeah. And it's not it's I suppose probably not the kind of thing that someone listening would use as a tactic. But just to emphasize your point, and and they grew the agency from, like, I don't know, twenty million to a hundred and fifty million in five or six years. So it's, like, it totally worked. It worked. Yeah. So, you know, and they had this, like well, I won't go into it too much because it's not that relevant, but it works. But it was systematic. It was generous. It was risky. It was vulnerable. They they sent some other really expensive stuff. Along the way, like, every month and the salespeople would reach out. It's like, oh, you're the guys that sent the cookies, you know? Yeah. Right. Yeah. I'll I'll put you through. Right? It basically boils down to that. Right.
0:35:22
I had another guy on that in terms of warming things up, this guy was a is is a classic well, he's a recruiter. Or or what's it called when you when you do sort of high level executive placement, like a a Search. Like a search? I I I forget the name, but I feel like headhunter. So like like a company needed like a company needed a new CEO or something. And so he would go out and find someone. And then if he placed them, it's kinda like a recruiter, but I thought there was a different name for it. Well, it's executive search. You're thinking you retained and what you're describing is not retained. Okay. That's pay or play. Okay. Or pay play to pay. Right.
0:36:00
So he he actually is hilarious character. He's been doing it for, like, forty years. And he he would come he came on the show and gave away all the secrets if you wanna go through the back catalog of ditching hourly if I normally recommend. But his his warming things up was he would do his he would really do his homework. So like you said about, you know, the the person on LinkedIn that was trying to sort of network through you. The he would find his way into lower level areas of the company and find out exactly what the challenges were. He would really do his research. Mhmm. And And then he would get the the ideal buyer say it was the CEO or or the the chairman of the board or whatever. Get them on the phone. And, I mean, it sounded like Woody Allen or something is, like, this hilarious voice.
0:36:48
And you just be, like, if I told you, I could find you to do that and, you know, in the next thirty days, would you give me three minutes of your time? Like, real real -- More. -- broiler room. Really? But he's a soloist. And and he would spend a lot of time making sure that that thing that he said right then, the person on the other end would be like, yeah. I'll give you three minutes. I'll give you an hour. We've been trying to fill that spot for a year, meanwhile, he knows that. Right. So so tactically, if you were if you needed to get to that highest level buyer, you need to know what to say before you even get on the call. You're not gonna have a chance to get exploratory So anyway, I just wanted to reference that art that that interview in case anybody is interested in, like, how he did it.
0:37:33
There's another book called selling to big companies that is by Jill Conrad who's been on the show before. And she has just a massive wealth of information in there that last I looked was still very current for tactical ways to do outreach with scripts and everything over email or phone that is really useful if you're trying to get into these kinds of companies? Well, there there's another thing too that happens, especially with the expert the expertise crowd, which is we stopped following up. So just because you sent one email and you didn't get a response, doesn't mean it ends there. You send a follow-up. You send another follow-up. You know, just for the heck of it, I look up.
0:38:17
I wanted to see, like, if there were any statistics about how many follow ups make sense. Because, like, in my own mind, I'm thinking, after about three, I'm starting to feel like a little spamming. Mhmm. And what little research I could find on on email follow-up is that you can actually go up to ten follow ups and still get results. And it's not even yes, it's not even a decreasing line. It's pretty steady. So some people just take more times.
0:38:49
And again, we're not talking about Well, did you get my message? Remember? I thought you're you're not doing that. You're you're each time you're pinging them in a way that is hopefully welcoming and is not showing your frustration with the fact that they haven't responded back to you. Right. Because that's the other thing. People get really frustrated because it's easy to take this personally. Well, this is my ideal client. This is the perfect client for me. Why? They should wanna talk to me. They should wanna pick my brain. Why aren't they calling me back. Well, because it's not all about you. We we don't know what else is going on. It's not about you. Let it go. And then once you let it go, then you can right the right follow-up to that individual without having, you know, that personal stuff get in the way. Mhmm.
0:39:40
What are some other ways that you could imagine kind of warming up the cold outreach or like soft softer ways than like norm you know, sort of getting inside information and then, like, punching the CEO in the face with it on the phone. Like, what are some more subtle? Not subtle, but just like slowly iterative relationship building remotely not people in person doing, you know, speed dating. At the chamber commerce, but, like, like, other kinds of ways that you can do things in a remote world in with an expertise business. One I seen, but I I have mixed feelings about it, but it I've seen it work with a number of clients, and that is where you mention something else that you've done.
0:40:26
You have to be really careful that it's not about client name dropping. But if you're in a particular universe, and all the companies kinda know each other. You can sometimes drop that you like, if there's, you know, twenty companies in your universe, they all know who each other is you can say, well, you know, I just finished a really interesting project with XYZ where we did this. And again, it's it's very dangerous. You really have to be careful. But yeah. But there are opportunities like that. Like, perhaps you would like I've just done this project. Perhaps you would like to have a conversation about how you're approaching that issue. And again, it's not I'm gonna sit down and tell you what I did with x y z company, but I have this knowledge and I'm willing to sit down with you to see if may be there's, you know, there's some commonality. So I've seen that work.
0:41:20
Again, usually when it's a fairly small universe, and everybody knows everybody else. Right. Yes. Definitely dangerous. Yeah. But I I I'm not comfortable doing I don't like it personally, but You reminded me of a couple of couple of stories though with that example. One is, I've had I've had dev shops get off. And this has even happened when I was back at a dev shop where we got off of a project for very, very specific kind of industry.
0:41:49
So think like tree service company, like built this workflow solution for tree service company that has say twenty employees and five million dollars of of trucks, that sort of thing. So if finished the project or whatever, and you've got this currently, your your knowledge of that industry is at an all time high for you. It's never gonna get higher. And so there's sort of a shelf life on it. So you could reach out to other tree service companies in non competing markets because it's a local business and they're not, you know, it's they're not, like, going across state lines probably. You could reach out to different businesses in that market and say, hey, we just finished a project for blah, like you said. They might have never heard of them, but, you know, it's a it's a it's a tree service business indicator that has twenty employees and they do about fifty million a year. And we build an internal system for them that deliver these kinds of results.
0:42:49
And while this expertise is still in mind, we wanted to reach out to similar types of companies in non competitive markets. Where we could perhaps have a conversation about doing something similar for you. You know, but while, like, our sort of knowledge of the industry is still current, probably in eighteen months, I'm sure things change pretty quickly. And, you know, it might not be relevant anymore. So now so it gives a reason why you would reach out right now with not urgency, but, like, that there's a shelf life for the expertise. Mhmm.
0:43:20
And, you know, that that seems that I feel like back in the day, I feel like I could have pulled that off without feeling or or per or or being perceived as desperate. Because it just makes sense. Well, I like the shelf life idea. I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, somebody whose brand is really about, you know, seeing into the future and predicting what's going to happen. That would be an example of, you know, it might make sense to have maybe you've put together I hate to say PowerPoint, but you've put something together about this.
0:43:54
And whether it's something you share with the the potential client ahead of time or you have a call where you talk about the results I sort of imagine like Hinge marketing does that with their study, that they're probably marketing that to sit down with people and sell their services over the over the results of the study. Mhmm. So, you know, you can do things like that. And as a soloist, you don't have to create, you know, a ninety page study deck, but you can have a conversation about the three trends that you're seeing in in your particular niche for the next year or the next five years, if anybody is even doing five years out Right.
0:44:36
I I mean, in either one of those cases that the future sort of futurist model or the or the tree service model, instead of calling them directly or emailing them directly, you could you could promote a webinar on, you know, the the three biggest sort of the eighty twenty rule for tree service workflow systems and and put that in front of one way or another people in that exact target market, which would be really easy to get a list of those people like super easy between LinkedIn and Google and little clever Google food and little Outreach Hey. You know, maybe it's probably for tree service companies. It's probably voice mail, but it could be email to say, hey, doing this webinar. You know, yeah, same same thing I said before, but as a webinar to sort of do a one to many version of it and see if there's any traction without sort of, you know, if you're if you didn't wanna jump straight on a call with people, but But then you have their emails. I mean, that's that's an interim step. So then you've got their emails.
0:45:33
And I think a lot of times we think when you do a webinar, oh, okay. Well, if they didn't, respond to the offer that I dangled at the end, oh, well, maybe they go on your mailing list, but that's all you do with them. But, hey, that's a that's a cold call list. Right. Right there. I see you came to our seminar. You know, would you know, and you've got your follow-up questions. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I like that idea as well.
0:45:56
Because the other thing is, well, the challenge with that is often creating that kind of a webinar is a lot of work, and it can cause you to burrow down into a hole instead of having your ears up and listening to what people are saying. Yeah. That's a good point. So yeah. So I kinda like the one to ones because you're going to understand more about your target market. If you already know you already know what their hot buttons are, that's a different thing. Then you're ready, you're armed, you know, you can go out and have webinars, you can have one to ones, you can have all sorts of ways to interact with with the people you don't know yet. Yep. You could turn the you could turn the just to flesh out this example, you could turn the tree service experience into a listening tour. Where you contact these other people, you know, go to LinkedIn, find their contact information and say, you know, same thing.
0:46:46
I'd love to get your thinking about building something for for people just like you in the true service space that are doing fifty million a year. And and but I don't wanna solve a problem that doesn't exist. I'd love to get, you know, even just ten minutes of your time to get your expert feedback and greatly value it so on so forth. So that it could be a similar thing where you're like, oh, maybe we'll turn this thing into a product. But before I build it, you know, I turn into a SaaS. But before I build it, I wanna see if there's, like, any demand for that kind of a thing. Mhmm. Yeah.
0:47:16
There's one other thing that we didn't mention, which is if you're gonna be doing a fair number of these, is it's worth trying kind of an AB approach to to test, like you could test your header you could test how you ask, how you do how you frame the ask, and then again, I'm assuming this is something where you're asking the same thing of everyone versus some very specific one to one cooked up approaches to new business. But I think when we are only going to send out, if we're going to send out thirty or fifty or a hundred. We kinda go, okay. Yeah. I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna keep sending the same thing over time. No. Right. Experiment. And see what happens, and and maybe even try it.
0:48:04
If you've got like a client, a good client that's in that space, you can even run it past them and say, if you got something like this, how would you react? Right. And, you know, get some feedback because what I found is a lot of times our first draft is still to me focused -- Mhmm. -- versus being focused on the recipient. And that's the kind of thing that a b testing will help you figure out. And I say a b, even if you're just sending it from your own email. It doesn't have to be fancy. Just try something different. Yeah.
0:48:32
Whenever I I've got someone who's got a list of, say, a hundred people whether it's guests they wanna have in their podcast or people who are, like, potential clients like perfectly in their target market. I'm only I I'm, like, do not email them all at once. Start off slowly, email two or three, wait to see if you get anything back, process that information, see if you know, if there's, like, frequently asked questions or, like, some kind of, you know, some way that you can improve the outreach in the first place. It's, like, the the thing that turns certainly a big thing that turns this kind of tactic, spammy, is is to try and automate it or decrease the level of effort and it's especially with, like, software developer types. So, like, oh, this is really inefficient. Like, this could be much more efficient if I just set up a spreadsheet and do a mail merge and and it's like, don't do that. Don't do that. You're capable of doing that, but that's that's gonna come across as the thing you don't wanna come across as almost certainly. It needs to be more thoughtful. It needs to be more customized. And is that a lot of work? Yeah. But the good news is spamers aren't doing that work. So it's the thing that will differentiate your email from all the other emails that they got.
0:49:42
Well, and it's just, you know, I'll use an example when I did the I sent out outreach for advanced readers for my book, and I sent every one of those one to one And the core of the message was the same, but the introductions and the closes were mostly different. Because I knew just enough about them. I mean, some I knew really well and it was like a no brainer, but there were some where I knew just enough about them. Where I I could say something that was that they would know. This was not a mass produced email. Mhmm. I specifically thought of you when I sent this.
0:50:19
And then I think the other thing with this is send your low risk emails first. Yes. Totally agree. If there's if there's, like, a handful that you really, really want don't start with them. Right. Right. Prove the concept on the other people where, you know, you're not gonna feel as bad you get a no. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Start with the easy ones.
0:50:38
I'd say the same thing in five day podcast challenge. It's like make a list of ten people you'd like to have as guests. And sort it from easiest to get, to hardest to get, so that you can get some practice doing the outreach to the people who are almost definitely gonna say yes. And get some confidence, maybe record a few interviews, start to feel how it feels. It's the same concept. I mean, that's still cold outreach. You know? It's It's not for new business, but it's still cold outreach. But there's just something I I like your point about building confidence because that is what happens. It's like you don't wanna get crushed like a bug your first time out.
0:51:12
If you wanna get, you know, some yeses or some babies or some I remember what when I was doing the podcast cold outreach, somebody said, oh, we'd love to do it. Now our calendar is full, but in six months, and they literally sent me a calendar invite six months out. I'm like, fine. It's a win. I'm gonna take the win. You just you know, sometimes that's just what you need. You just need some wins in between, and it allows you to feel good about what you're doing, feel like you're gaining traction, And, you know, and and this is what you're doing in addition to to your day job. Right? All the things that you're doing for for clients or or for your your students. Mhmm. Cool. I feel like we're I I feel like we could keep going.
0:51:58
I have, like, a bunch more stories about people that have sent snail mail people who have strictly done phone outreach because email didn't work because they were trying to get to people who basically people in trucks fixing stuff, and they just don't operate on email. They operate on their cell phones, podcast invites, at content review, which is kinda like a listening tour. But, hey, could you take a look at this thing I'm drafting? Could you take a look at the draft of this thing? And they're like, oh, you know, and you're hoping for you're hoping for good feedback to improve it, but also there's the possibility of them saying, I know someone that might need this. Like, when is this gonna be ready? So there's just like a million ways you can do this. So how would we what what would you if you were gonna bring it back to the high level, I think my main thing would be to work the notion of introducing yourself to other people in this sort of generous and thoughtful way.
0:52:50
Make it part of your routine, not that you necessarily schedule it, but that it's in the back of your mind when the opportunity arises to say hello to someone new when you don't need to. Just get in the habit of doing it. Yeah. It's it's the keyword is habit. Because when it's a habit, you don't really think about it. Think about doing it. I mean, you think about how you're gonna do it and the way that it's gonna work. But you're not constantly asking yourself, should I do it? Should I do this this time? I mean, you're you're just getting all of the energy you would have wasted with that back by making it a habit. I think that's that's critical.
0:53:27
And the other piece of this is always make it about them because everybody is, you know, the with them what's in it for me. Mhmm. That's what you wanna show them. Mhmm. We're all alike. We're all selfish creatures on some level. Right? And so it's okay to feed into that. It's it's what people want. It shows that you're generous and you're thoughtful and you're trying to learn about them. And that that implies to me a a level of humility, which I really like. It makes me feel more connected to the person if I feel like they're willing to to make an emotional investment in me. Yeah. They're being vulnerable. And emphasized that. Mhmm. Right.
0:54:09
Everybody's got limited resources especially time. So they have to make decisions constantly all day long about how they're gonna spend it. So, you know, you're in competition with the the time that you're asking because that is I think that's common across all of this is you're asking for time. Some of their, you know, precious life minutes as they say. So, like, what's in it for them? You know, is it it sounds great, but is this that a heck yeah? Or is this like a definite no? And yeah? Cool. Cool. Alright folks. Well, Jackson's ready to go. Jackson said it's time. So it is time. Yep. Alright, folks. That's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark. And I'm Rochelle Moulton. And we hope you join us again next time for the business of authority. Bye. Bye bye.