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In Therapy Talk, clinical psychologist and co-founder of It's Complicated, Johanne Schwensen, takes you on a captivating journey through the world of therapy.
In conversation with a diverse array of mental health professionals, the various modalities are demystified, and therapy's intersection with society is explored. Whether you're a therapy-seeker or simply psychologically curious, Therapy Talk offers valuable insights and a fresh perspective on the impact of therapy.
Find your Therapist at: https://www.complicated.life
Music by Kadri Arula
It's been more than a year
since the last episode of
its complicated podcast was released.
And a lot has happened.
It's complicated.
Went from being the passion project
of myself, a Danish psychologist
And Jakob, a Swedish psychoanalyst
to being a serious company of 10 people.
Supporting people in finding
their ideal therapist.
Among the more than 2000 mental health
professionals we have on the platform.
It was due to all of this activity.
And the fact that I got really bummed out
that the last interview I did was deleted
before I could edit and publish it.
That I had a hiatus of 15 months.
But I'm back now.
And while I'll still be talking
with therapists, I'll do so
with a slightly different focus.
This time, I want to
explore the work they do.
And how this might be
compelling to all of you.
Psychologically curious people out there.
To kick it off.
I've invited my friend and colleague,
the wonderful Katharina Albrecht.
To talk about therapy in
these unprecedented times
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
I'm really glad that there's actually a,
you know, a conversation that's starting
here . and so, For those who don't
know me, I am a sex and relationship
therapist primarily, and I work both
online, but also in person . And I
work with couples and individuals.
I also have a.
Degree, postgraduate
degree in refugee care.
There's a kind of interest definitely
in these, you know, also not just
being a therapist, but also thinking
about how to be a therapist.
In these times that are changing
and evolving and how to kind of
administer care at different levels.
So whilst I, you know, I don't so
actively work with refugees these days,
but I still am very much a sort of.
Thinker in the field.
And also since we last spoke, I had, a
real sort of passion and desire to, to
work with clients in a more embodied
. Way to incorporate the body a bit more
because I felt that a lot of people that
I work with are sort of describing feeling
cut off from their bodies and feeling
overwhelmed in their nervous system and
finding it difficult to regulate their
nervous systems, which also then of
course, you know, has a big impact on
Once relational health and how
people express themselves sexually
when you are kind of stuck on,
on or stuck on off all the time.
And, and, and so I started a
training in somatic experiencing,
which is very much a kind of trauma
body sensation focused approach.
And it's just really
absolutely transforming my
My work, I can really see how in
the room people are kind of, you
know, . They're moving ahead in their,
in their processes and journeys.
Like they haven't in , you
know, all this time.
So I think there's a, just to be able
to mix kind of talk therapy was also
being able to access the body and
learning the language of the body
Track 1: so is it a lot of
breathing techniques or what are
the concrete tools that you're
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: Hmm,
Track 1: from this
training
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: yes.
It's not so much breathing.
It's more sensation tracking.
So there's the idea that, you know,
our nervous systems, they can handle
a certain amount of, of stresses, but
when they become overwhelmed, stuff
gets stored in the body, and this is
a way to actually kind of access that.
And then also complete
Being able to complete the stress cycle
so that people can quite literally move
on from things that sometimes they've
been carrying around with them for years.
And so it's not so much kind of
practically telling people to do
anything differently because I think
we've all, we all all already are
doing all these things, but, but this
is more to complete these cycles that
have been where people feel stuck.
Johanne: I was just reminded of, uh, of
the saying when name it, you tame it and
May, maybe, there's part of,
somatic experiencing training
also . Really going deep on that, like
going into the nitty gritty of how to
really assist people in, in labeling.
,
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
What I hear is there's a kind of
intelligence and knowing and naming
it and, and so people can, people can
really . You know, learn a kind of
intelligent way with their bodies.
And I think especially in these
unprecedented times, it is such a great
tool to be able to do that because
there's a resilience that comes with it.
Like, you know, nervous systems, they go
up and get activated all the time, but
then they're supposed to also regulate.
Downregulate.
And when we don't do that you know,
it, it's sort of what happens in the
outside work becomes so much more kind
of important when we can't, you know,
know where we are in relation to it.
Johanne: That's great.' But, but let
me ask you, when when you think about
like the therapist's positioning can
that also be translated to just any
like, care worker, volunteer, you
know, someone in a helping profession?
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: I,
I think, you know, in the last talk that
we had, it was very much about just, you
know, how can, how can just the world
become more therapeutically minded?
Not, you know, not, not just
how to be a therapist, but can
there be a way for Any person.
And that's always like, you know, my
big idea, but to, to kind of fear that
they can respond rather than react
and, you know, what are potential tools
that they might benefit from having or
be curious learning about and so on.
I think in this particular situation I
was, I was quite curious about, you know,
where therapist's position Themselves,
um, in these unprecedented times or
in these sort of major life events
that are going on and that seem to,
you know, increase . We've got climate
change, we had a pandemic, we, you
know, have got wars going on and so on.
I've just had people come in and be
outraged and be sort of, find themselves
in conflict with lots of, not so much
their friends and their immediate social
group, but with, with a wider society
as a, as a whole and, and, and really
struggling to find their place in it.
And really not, not sure what, what is
okay to say and what isn't, and also.
I felt the, as a therapist, you know,
kind of, I felt a bit pushed to also
position myself that people were in, in
the uncertainty and in the insecurity that
they felt really seemed to be sort of,
you know, longing for wanting a think?
Track 1: Right.
Did they ask you directly, directly and
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
there were a couple of times in that
week where, and it's actually people,
you know, who've never asked me anything
really before, but it was also then
the question about, you know, me
being German and what does that mean?
So I just felt, you know, it, it, it sort
of for me just started a conversation or a
dialogue in my head about where therapists
kind of historically where, and I mean
in a sense, you know, we still are, I
still see myself as a person who does not
Directly respond to these questions,
but it, but I want to think about
it and I want to think about it in
a holistic, useful way and, and,
and, and use it for the process.
And, and therefore it's,
just triggered this.
Curiosity to reflect on it because
I think that's what we can do.
This is something we can all do
and perhaps the only thing, um,
we can do is to reflect on these
things and to ask these questions.
So that's sort of a very long
answer to your question of
what know, did I have in mind.
Johanne: Yeah, so you've
been reflecting also on the
therapeutic space, like in Yeah.
In its traditional
context, in its historical
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: Yes.
And it's, it's I can see I, so I
did my a part of my training in
the UK in London at the Tavistock.
At the Tavistock Center and and
that's a more psychodynamic,
psychoanalytic um, minded institute.
And, and I can see how, you know,
really think in the, in the very more
traditional psychoanalytic way of, of
working, the relationship was very much
Between the patient, and the therapist,
and the whole work seemed to just
revolve around that, you know, the
sort of transference and counter
transference, the projections and, and the
working with the unconscious and so on.
And, just if I think about it, like
people would be in psychoanalysis five
days a week and they really wouldn't have
much of the external representations of
their external life wouldn't factor into.
the therapeutic work.
So it was as if, I mean, I remember
for example, clients when I was there,
which is not even that long ago.
It's like 10 years ago.
Clients being advised who were
in psychoanalysis to not enter.
Into a romantic relationship
because they were in a relationship
of sorts with their therapist.
And, and so it was really that, you know,
people would kind of say, you know, if
someone missed the bus, um, it would
be about the relationship between . The
therapist and the, and the clients
that maybe they were avoiding , perhaps
showing up for the session or something?
Track 1: So imbuing every single
external happening with psychoanalytic.
Personal,
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
it, and, and just, it might have
been that this is a single mother so
there definitely something where.
It, it would isolate the person
from its socioeconomic or cultural
context and take it out was only
kind of available to certain people.
So in that sense, it was
actually quite political.
hoWever, the therapist be more of
a blank slate, um, in that view.
And of course the therapist has
a, an embodiment and an internal
representation of what's going on.
But I, but it wasn't worked with in,
in the same that it is now, perhaps but
I, but I do think that like, I'm very,
very grateful and very happy that I.
That I did have that very sorrow
psychoanalytic education because
A, it was fascinating, and, and b,
it sort of trained my muscle, you
know, I was quite young really when
I was doing my undergraduate, and
it really trained me to think, in
a certain analytical way that is.
It's like a kind of classical
musician training or something.
You know, you, you've got that.
Track 1: But tell me more.
Like what is that, what
is that muscle like?
Is it the muscle of.
, like imbuing things with a useful
type of meaning that can, yeah.
What is that muscle or like,
is it a muscle of of, of, of
really spurring on self-awareness
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
I think it's, it's something of of a
point of view of a, and, and I don't
mean so much an intele intellectual one,
but it's a, it's a way of being with a
client in this space and really attuning.
You know, tuning into what you see in
the immediacy, what you see between,
you know, what happens right now, but
then you get these sort of senses of,
you know, something is happening in
my body or I'm having a very strong
reaction and to, to, to then think, you
know, is this, is this something that's
happening in the present or is there.
Or, or is it something that's Oh, . And
so you kind of, it's, it's, it's a
certain way, I suppose of, of, of, of
joining, of, of joining the, the, client
and, and being able to put it into,
into a kind of developmental context
or, you know, link it to moments of
the biography in, in, in the client's
biography, which I find really so
fascinating and especially obviously
working with couples you know, to see
what might be reenacted in, in that space.
So I think it's a, it's a certain way of.
Seeing, and it's, it's just
a way of going a bit deeper.
So I do think, you know, having said
it was limited I, I do think that
there's, in a, in a good psychoanalytic
training, you've really got everything
because there are certain mistakes a
psychoanalyst will not do because of
how much they work with themselves
and their own projections and so on.
Track 1: And do you think then it . That
it is due to this psychoanalytical
training that you are able to
resist responding directly to.
You know, these, these questions that
you've been asked in, in, in the past
weeks, for instance, about your political
positioning because you, you've briefly
mentioned that you actually do consider
yourself as someone who you know, does
not respond directly but but yeah.
I, I don't know if I'd I, I'd
be able to, and maybe that's
due to my lack of training.
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
It is quite confronting when it It's
quite, because most people are very shy
with their therapists, and it's also a
huge sort of sign of trust when someone
says, I want to know what you think.
Especially somebody who hasn't,
you know, really hasn't gone there.
So it's really something I
don't want to shut down at all.
And you know, not to give
the feeling, that's too much.
So there's a kind of stance to
take where it's to demonstrate
rather than say . Because it's at
the tip of my tongue to say, I.
I'm not, you know, I'm German, but I'm
not , you know, like other Germans who
have really misbehaving themselves.
And I'm, I'm equally ashamed, you
know, and I equally devastated.
That's about me.
That's my ego.
There's, you know, that part of
me that wants to make it about me.
, there's a part of the client perhaps
would quite like it about me rather
than being, it being about them.
That's the psychoanalytic thing that
I'm not, trying to to act out on.
But there's a way, you know, where
the moment I think we as therapists
start to talk about ourselves,
it is no longer about them.
And that might be a role.
They are unconsciously.
Giving us or trying to give
us . But it's also very much,
you know, my responsibility.
The moment it becomes about me, it's
as if the space to talk, the space
to feel, the space to be isn't there
anymore for the person who needs it.
So I'm very conscious of it.
So, you know, it's like, you
know, when people say to be
kind isn't always nice, and.
What seems like the nice thing
to do would be to say yes.
Isn't it ? Isn't it just horrible?
And, but the kind thing actually is
to keep in mind all of these things
and to just really, to really not
take this space away from the person.
Because the moment it becomes about,
it is about my political views,
that's what the person will be
thinking about rather than being left.
Also with perhaps an uncomfortable
feeling and a feeling that's very
difficult to digest, which is,
you know, I feel somewhat lost.
And that's a, an important feeling
to have nonetheless, you know,
even if it's hard and, and so.
Track 1: And is it completely possible?
I mean, like can therapists
maintain their neutrality still
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
Well,
I think, you know, we are people and
there are certain things that, there
are certain situations, I suppose,
without being able to necessarily name
them now, where I would, you know,
perhaps really clearly demonstrates
that I'm not neutral about it.
But.
Track 1: Yeah.
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
but it is, you know, we, during the
pandemic there were a lot of people
who were anti-vax and the, you know,
I think it's a very understandable
and relatable question to say, you
know, I would rather work with a, the
therapist who is vaccinated or, you
know and, and so I think it's, it's sort
of pretending to be neutral would be.
Dishonest.
But I can, I can use
Track 1: Yeah.
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
internally, my positionings in
order to kind of, to work with it
rather than to shut things down,
which I think links to, know, the
question of how to be a therapist in
unprecedented times is working with it.
Whatever comes up.
Track 1: Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
aNd would you say that, I mean, the
way that the therapeutic space, the way
that therapy has evolved also helps you,
integrate these more societal, or let's
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: Mm
Track 1: them like cultural
socioeconomic aspects
Into treatment.
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: yes.
I think, you know, when I kind
of do an assessment with someone.
I would now take into account it's
a very more systemic almost approach
that these, these things, and I think,
you know, you being more into . CBT.
There's also the sort of external
conditions um, you know, and
the frame that we exist in.
And so I think there's a real,
there is a way to work quite
dynamically with those things.
You know, that, that, that are
part of a person's reality.
You know, whilst maybe
if somebody shows up.
Late every time.
, I, I might make that, you know, I
might analyze that, but I also have
an understanding that there are very
real and concrete, you know reasons
for, for certain things happening.
And, and so I have a, you know,
I try to really hold in mind the
place and time that we live in.
Track 1: We've spoken up until now about,
um, like the therapist's positioning and
how the, and how therapy has evolved,
how the therapeutic space has evolved.
But, but what about
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432: Hmm.
Track 1: the role of clients
,
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
I was thinking about that recently,
that, you know, when I was training
in London and I was seeing clients
as a, as a trainee, we had certain.
You know, people working with couples,
people would come in and, um, and maybe
there was an affair or, or something
and, you know, get seeking support
in how to, how to work through this.
Whereas these days people just really
seem incredibly informed and incredibly
educated and knowledgeable, because
I work, so I work with attachment
theory a lot and and also, you know,
supporting clients and polyamorous
relationships and open relationships
and all these different sort of
constellations and, and, and relationship.
Dynamics and, and I find that, you know,
often people come in having read all
the literature that that, that I've
been reading, you know, and, and just
seems sort of very, informed and they're
very much sort of autonomous agents.
In in, in their own healing journey,
which I think is a really great thing
that people generally seem to be, you
know, and I, and I'm, I'm not necessarily
sure if there's a representation of
soci society as a whole, but very
much in this bubble that I, you
know, for better or worse existing
people, people seem to really kind of.
want to actively play a part in
the, in their healing process, which
is, which is really refreshing.
the same time, you know, I think
there's a kind of other side to this.
So what my clients these days.
Do not struggle with seemingly
is getting the information.
But what they seem to struggle
with, after all, is how to unlearn
certain things and how to be
comfortable with the not knowing.
And I can really see that, you know,
in the, world that seems to be sort of,
you know, falling apart in some ways,
that, that the position of not knowing.
can be a very difficult one so nobody has
a really kind of a, you know, an answer.
But, but I, but I think there's something
about surrendering to the therapeutic
process and putting your trust in a
therapist, which is also a very important
part to, to, to become, you know, and
I can do, I can do certain things to
To support clients in getting
there to actually unlearn and
trust and be in the space.
There's line that we have a mutual
friend who also works at the
practice he said something in one of
psychological wholeness.
Not being able to protect
you from the word and I.
Think about this all the time.
, it's really, I, I haven't taught him that
actually . But now he knows , because
you know, it kind of so nicely illustrates
also the limits of, of therapy and that
we can, we can work on ourselves, but
also there's a, there's a certain kind
of existential thing going on where
Where perhaps it's not all that important.
And we don't have to constantly
brace ourselves, but, but to be in
our full humanity , is actually
a great power um, in these times.
Track 1: So that then is the
perfect way to to end this really,
fulfilling conversation , the
majority of our relationship is
just jumping online to talk about
really deep and existential topics
,
squadcaster-f6ac_1_10-19-2023_153432:
Thank you so
of your input this.
has really actually been great,
Johanne: so thank you listeners for tuning
into our it's complicated podcast Therapy.
Talk with yours.
Truly you Johanne.
This time of conversation with sex
and couples, counselor, Katharina.
About the potential of therapy in a world
that triggers outrage and confusion.
And dysregulated nervous systems.
I found it really interesting
hearing Katharina talk about how she
supports people and almost completing
stress responses on a somatic level.
To release these overwhelming experiences
that may be stuck in the body.
And how she encouraged
people to bring their raw and.
Authentic selves to the consulting space.
To surrender fully to
the process, so to speak.
This seems especially important when
these unprecedented times are asking of
us to always be on guard and in control.
I will be back in some weeks with an
episode where I'll be in conversation
with a therapist, Rebekka Lehmann,
who specializes in secondary
trauma and compassion fatigue.
Until then remember you can find out
more about Katharina and all of the
other it's complicated therapists.
On www.complicated.life.