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"What would you happily dedicate your time to for free? That thing is embedded in your purpose" - Vee Kativhu
In this weeks episode I have the privilege of speaking to educational YouTuber, activist and author of Empowered: Life Your Life With Passion and Purpose, Vee Kativhu . In the conversation we talk about Vee's journey through education, the challenges she faced, her mission for girls education and how she's striving to empower others to follow their passion and purpose in life.
Dr Ali Abdaal is the worldโs most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isnโt discipline, itโs joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Aliโs cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Aliโs a firm believer that happiness isnโt the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
Deep Dive With Ali Abdaal Transcripts
Episode 12: Vee Kativhu
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Vee Kativhu 00:00
What would you want to do for free if you didn't have to think about bills and all this other stuff? What
would you happen you dedicate your time to? For free and that thing that thing is embedded in your
purpose? That's a good starting point.
Ali Abdaal 00:12
Hey everyone how's it going? Welcome back to Deep Dive. In this episode, I have the immense
privilege to speak to Vee Kativhu, who has written this book empowered V is like me an educational
YouTuber, but unlike me, she is like a published author now having actually written publish a book.
She's like mates with Michelle Obama, she's an activist, she does a load of stuff around helping
improve access to education for people all around the world. And genuinely, there was some moments
in this conversation that really brought tears to my eyes just hearing the the authentic and honest and
really inspiring way that V naturally speaks about her upbringing and her mum and the stuff that she's
doing. And I'm not really wanting to feel emotional about stuff but like there was something about
chatting to be for the first time that really really got me so yeah, it was it was really good and I hope you
guys enjoy the episode as much as I did. So yeah overall in the episode we discuss and v's journey to
education and doing this impairment thing that she's into and we talked about her mission and purpose
that really genuinely does seem to be to do good in the world and I'm you know, you'll see in the
episode I get a bit flabbergasted as how as to how altruistic her motives Like genuinely are whereas
mine often tend to be far more unselfish side of things for like fame and power and money and all that
all that kind of stuff. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the episode book is really good. You should check it out.
Read it, it's actually sick and it's genuinely like a really a really pretty like a work of art as well. You'll see
if you're watching this on on the YouTube channel. But yeah, I hope you enjoyed this conversation
between me and V. Let's go for it Veatch. Welcome. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Vee Kativhu 01:33
I'm good. Thank you, Ali. How are you?
Ali Abdaal 01:35
I'm great. I've been following your your journey on the internet for such a long time. But then the first
time we actually were meeting in real life.
Vee Kativhu 01:40
I know. It's quite exciting. It's quite weird internet because you've seen someone every day you watch
this story. I know you were just in Pakistan, like I know so much. But now I'm like, Oh, hi. But I already
know so much. It's quite a weird and backwards of doing it. But -
Ali Abdaal 01:55
It's nice to meet you in the flesh. So you've got this book. Oh, which is is coming up very, very shortly. I
mean, it will it will it will be out by the time people see this. Yeah, this is very cool. It's like it's like a work
of art. Almost.
Vee Kativhu 02:06
I feel like a proud mother.
Ali Abdaal 02:08
It's so pretty.
Vee Kativhu 02:09
Honestly, I feel like this is my baby and the insides, the colours. It's me. It's yellow, bright. Its energy. Its
sun.
Ali Abdaal 02:18
What was the story of getting up getting the book deal?
Vee Kativhu 02:20
Oh, my gosh, people asked me this all the time. And I don't know if this is a regular story of this is not a
regular story. But I just got an email, I got an email from my editor mirre, who is incredible. And she was
having a bad day, she was having a really bad day or something like that. And she went on the internet.
And she stumbled across my videos. And she went into like a six hour video watching nonstop. And she
just got to know me in that time. And she was like the moment she was done. She had to email and
say, your your life and your story and your advices it needs to be a book. And she emailed that day, I
think and then I replied the next day and this journey began.
Ali Abdaal 02:58
Wow when so when when was that? And how was that journey from from email to now when the book
is in your hand?
Vee Kativhu 03:04
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
So quite ironic, I started writing the book The same day, I began my degree at Harvard. So they happen
at the same time. It's I guess the email came two weeks before three weeks before he got into
negotiations, the back and forth or that stuff. And then you begin.
Ali Abdaal 03:22
What's that process been like for you? Writing a book while doing well doing a degree from Harvard,
like that's a pretty big deal.
Vee Kativhu 03:29
I've done some crazy stuff in my time. But that was the craziest because it's just too big commitments
to things that you should be given 100% of the entire time t. I'm doing them simultaneously. So that was
quite odd, but also exciting because I think I work best when there's lots going on rather than one thing.
And I've never just done my degrees. I've never just done one thing. It's always juggling, and I like that.
So the process was good. I had to take time off YouTube at some point for like two months, because it
got quite a lot. But we're here now and I have a degree and a book now. So pretty happy.
Ali Abdaal 04:05
Yeah. Congratulations.
Vee Kativhu 04:06
Thank you.
Ali Abdaal 04:06
I saw lots of very cute photos from your graduation. Your kind of at home graduation party, your family if
you like your friends and balloons and everything.
Vee Kativhu 04:15
Let me tell you something when it comes to celebrating and celebrating life, my family don't play
games. They are unapologetic about the fact that you've gotten this far as in anyone could be me could
be anybody. You've gotten this far through your hard work and life is not easy. The world puts a lot on
you especially as a young woman who's a black young woman right the world puts a lot on you as it is.
So anytime you get a when they're like we will celebrate this to kingdom comes when the pandemic
was happening. The schools were not giving us graduations. My family said okay, that's fine, good for
them, but we're gonna carry on. So the villeins came out we ordered the gowns and the whole the
whole nine yards and I was really happy.
Ali Abdaal 04:57
Fantastic. So I will I want to go into A lot of the stuff you talk in the book because really like the whole
thing, live your life with passion and purpose. And you've got some interesting thoughts around how to
find your purpose and goal setting and all that kind of stuff. Before we get into that, I wonder if we can
talk a little bit about your, your, your background, kind of your childhood, all that kind of stuff, because
it's quite inspiring story. So for people who maybe aren't familiar with your story, I wonder if you can
give us like, an overview of kind of, where have you come from? And how did how did we How did we
get here.
Vee Kativhu 05:28
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
So I was born and raised in Zimbabwe, a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful country on the southern tip of
African continent. And I was raised there up until the age of about seven. And in that timeframe, my
father passed away when I was about two, my mom moved to England when I was two, and then my
sister instantly got separated from me, because obviously, you're going to stay with family members
while your mom's away. And they can't afford to have both of you. So we were split up. So I think being
born and then straightaway, your family's gone. That was really, really hard. And I was raised as an
orphan had orphan status in Zimbabwe. And that was really difficult because people treat you different,
like you feel the constant sympathy and all that kind of stuff. And then we got reunited when I was about
seven or eight. And then I moved to England, to be with my mom. And that story of getting to the airport
is always a funny but sad one for me, because we literally got to the airport, my sister and I after being
reunited, and we we saw two women, my mom and her best friend, and I was like, I literally don't know
which one she is. That is how much I just didn't know her and my sister onto one person, I ran to the
other. And, of course, I got the wrong one. And yeah, but since that day, my mom and I have been like
best friends to make up for last time. I think we bonded so quickly. And now we're inseparable, you
know? And then yeah, got to the UK, went to school, wanted to go to Oxford. That was a big deal for
me, because I thought life is so the living and I want nothing but the best that it has to offer. So I went to
Oxford. Well, when I wanted to go to Oxford, my teacher said no. She was like, No, it's not for people
like us. And that was not going to work with me because my mom, since since we've been reunited, she
just she just wanted me to have everything like she wanted me to go after life, because it'd been so
hard to begin. So when I say I want to go to uni, her instance was well within it, we're gonna choose
whichever one of the best one which one's the best one Google it. That was literally how we chose
attacked him Google, what's the best players the best place to study history? Oxford came up with. So
that's where we're going. So when she said no, it didn't make sense to me. I said, But why? You know,
and I didn't end up going, sadly, because I just didn't have my school support. And then the next year,
the foundation year came around, I applied for the foundation year got into Oxford started YouTube,
and then the rest is history. What is the foundation here? Ah, the foundation? Yes. So it was this pilot
scheme and course at Lady Margaret Hall Oxford, which was like a bridging course to kind of help
students from backgrounds like mine, who would have wanted to go to places like Oxford, but because
of circumstances out of their control, they just couldn't, or they've maybe didn't meet the grades or
whatever the reason could be. This is like a foundation year, like a bridging course or a fast track to get
you up to speed with what you might have missed out on in that year before you do undergraduate. So
you get onto the foundation year, you get Oxford you're there, but you're not yet there. So I had to like
wake up from my room at Oxford to go downstairs to interview for Oxford, by my professors who've
been teaching me for the past few months. And they're like, Hi, how are you? I'm like, we we've done
this before, like, come on. And then you find out when we've got no not by going downstairs again to
open your letter in the principal's office, instead of it being sent home. So that is like such an odd way.
But yeah, this is a course that they took on 10 students from the UK. And I was one of them. Luckily, I
was really happy about that. But only seven of us got to continue. So it wasn't guaranteed that you
would go on to do the degree Oxford. So yeah, that was really hard. Yeah, really hard.
Ali Abdaal 09:09
And why did you go for history?
Vee Kativhu 09:11
That's a good question. I just I love understanding the world and my place in it. And for me to do that I
have to go back in time to understand how things work. I can't just take things at face value, like I need
to know. But why like, where did this begin? You can't tell me. This is like the philosophy of education. I
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
need to know what is philosophy? Where does it begin? Like who are the first philosophers or helped
me understand just the core of something and the start of it. Things like anything like racism, politics,
whatever, like we didn't just end up here, something started or something happened first and I love
investigating. So that's why history for me.
Ali Abdaal 09:48
Okay. So that's interesting. So like, a lot of people I know, including me and all of the people I know
from immigrant immigrant background, would not study something like history because the mindset
would be What the hell are you gonna do with a history degree but am I History teacher. Yeah. And and
so for a lot of people that I know, it's like medicine, engineering law are like the only professions. Yeah,
do therefore are the only things that you can possibly do at uni. Otherwise you're going to end up I don't
know, unemployed, or whatever. Like, was that something that went through your mind at all?
Vee Kativhu 10:17
I honestly I think the world needs to have my mom have her own show have her own book, like she is a
character within herself. But when she was raising my sister and I, she never had any expectations on
us. So I never got that aspect of oh my god, you must become a doctor or a pilot, or she was just like,
you must become a Wii, that was her thing. And whatever it is I wanted to do, she would then follow
suit. So she just wait for me to tell her. This is a direction and then she would figure out a way of
supporting that or just listening or whatever she could do. So she's got this let them fly mentality. So I
never I never had that pressure. I mean, there was a time she mentioned the word doctor. But like she
said, any kind of doctor never specified. So if I do a PhD then technically, right. But yeah, she
supported the history. Dream. At some point, it was music at some point was Spanish like, I never went
down the lawyer, the traditional route never was in me.
Ali Abdaal 11:17
Okay, so then you started at Oxford. What was that experience like for you broadly?
Vee Kativhu 11:24
Gosh well, I mean, the first thing is, obviously, the lack of diversity is a big thing that plays a big role in
your experience, if you're not a student who's from that background, right? So as a young black woman
stepping in and only seen like, that my year, I think, 32 black students out of like 3000 undergraduates
or something like that. And that is a big, big, big difference, right? And there are what 30 colleges or 32,
in Oxford, so all of the split amongst us colleges. So you might be two or three maximum of you in your
college. And that was so different to what I had known before. So that was a little bit hard. But it was
fine, because I made friends. And my college was really nice. Yeah, but also been on the foundation
year, made it like an extra layer, because people were asking all the time, what is that? Like? What do
you mean, your foundation just didn't? What does that even mean? And how can you say you're not
sure if you'll be here next year, like we're all freshers. And I just had to keep on explaining. I mean,
actually, Year Zero, not year one. So next year is my first year, but this is my Year Zero that like widely
is zero. So I think that made the experience a little bit more difficult. And because I can compare from
my actual first year to my zero first year, I can see the difference like that. Yeah, I was tense. And I was
constantly like, feel like I need to explain my place all the time and justify it. And because it was so new,
this course, we literally had people from TV shows wanting to documentaries on us, right? They were
emailing all the time. We had newspaper people, we had politicians come and visit us we had all like
the tension was crazy, because people were like, wow, Oxford doesn't do this. And now Cambridge
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
after like four years, has adopted the course onto their staff. So it's been slow, but people are finally
getting around to it. And it was weird being the first on there.
Ali Abdaal 13:13
So you said that it was it was hard being one of 30 something black students in the year group, why
was that hard?
Vee Kativhu 13:26
It was hard because you you are constantly speaking for your entire race, right? whenever something
goes on. Yeah, is well, what did the black students think? And it's like, we were so small, such a
minority group that you're always feeling like you're representing all the time. You know, when
conversations of hair come up, you change your hair again. And again. No one's already told people.
Black, I changed my hair. It's particular styling. Today, I have blonde hair, too. I have red can have long
hair could have short hair. It's just how it works. People are always asking you stuff, you're cooking your
food, like what is that? It's just like a constant thing. And then the boys will start telling you Oh, my
bucket list is a data black girl. And you're always seed in your race and not just as a person. So being a
small group of you, it's magnified because I don't know you and then you start to feel a paranoia about
certain things that aren't even like happening because you're on defence. You're already like, if I speak
right now, this is just what V thinks and don't put me in with everybody else because we're not the same
and they'll just like paint it with the same brush right? As if all black students have the exact same
experience or the same thoughts. It's like no get to know us as individuals stop saying ACS African
Caribbean Society just lumping us together all the time, you know, so I felt like I couldn't just be a
student. I felt there was a responsibility that came with my place and also knowing that you need to do
access work because you got to make sure more of you getting so this experience is no longer alien or
oh my god visa which is black it should be visa yay. You know, and it not necessarily because I'm
blacks, so I knew I couldn't just be there and party and just be like a student, I had to also do all this
work to make sure other students like me came in so that we can change the narrative a little bit. But
yeah, there are many reasons like it was hard. But that's that's a little bit of why.
Ali Abdaal 15:16
Yeah, like it's hard to really imagine that like, it was kind of the same at Cambridge, like very few black
students in each year, you'd be lucky if in a college, there was like one or two black students. I think
when it came to Asian students, they were always many more like, still a minority competitive, but like,
a sufficient critical mass that for me, I never felt like yeah, I was like one of maybe like five or six brown
kids in the college. But there were there were enough overall, that yeah, I didn't feel that kind of I was
representing my race. Yeah, I think black people just get it worse than Asian people.
Vee Kativhu 15:54
Yeah, it was it was difficult, like it was really, really hard. And people always knew you because you
stick out more so. And then when things are happening, your college or university will always call you to
do the press things. And they always say, Come on, come on, like, can you speak for us, and you just
think, naturally, because I think that as an institution, you have a lot of work to do. Before we now stand
up for you, you need to stand up for us and show up for your students to show out for them. And stop
saying that you want to diversify. And they don't really do it. Like Stormzy offers a scholarship and you
turn it away while you're away. Yes. And then it went into Cambridge, like what do you think like things
like that? Yeah, Oxford first. And we were all like, but why would you say no, and you can't, you can't
tell us why. Things like that. You just get a little bit tired, and you feel like, and we fight in the world just
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
just to exist in the space. Do you want me here, you know, and that's why the channel began, truthfully,
that is, that is why I started doing YouTube. Because I was like, I can't keep doing these conversations
with people that I don't think care. And might as well just go to the internet and tell young black
students, you can be here, and you deserve a space if you want to occupy it. And you don't have to
change who you are just come as you are.
Ali Abdaal 17:14
I've never quite been able to make the argument for this to other people. Because Because when it
comes to the diversity stuff, I guess some people would say, well, it's not like the university is being
systematically racist and kind of oppressing black black people, for example. It's just that black people
don't get the grades. What do you say to that?
Vee Kativhu 17:37
That one makes me really, really angry. Because I don't think that there is a shortage of young,
intelligent, talented, and incredible black students in the UK, I think there's a lack of opportunity, a lack
of nurturing, and often a lack of love. That's what I really think. And if you're in a school like mine, like I
just shared my teachers a no. Does that mean V wasn't smart enough? No. Because at that exact time
that I went up to them to ask about this Oxford journey, three A's, top A's, like, he couldn't question
them. And it was what the time when you could only do a levels like first year, then second year, you get
your results. So I couldn't have scored better if I wanted to. So at that time, what's the reason to say no
to a student who's passionate and has the grades? And then what if I don't apply? Now you think
there's not a lot of black students that are smart, but there was one, she just didn't have the support to
get here? So where do we go with that argument? Really, truly. And also, if you are in a school, like the
school I was in where you'll go into class, and you've now gotten that a in your first year and you know,
you're on track to get your a stars, you walk into cars, and they're telling you you're sitting next to
someone who got an E. Fair enough. Love it, let's all help each other. I need to get my education right
now, I can't babysit someone else. Because they need to be looked after by a teacher who's spoken
support them, they need to be in a different class, because now what are you going to do? When you
have an A student and an E student? You got to teach a B grade? You have to teach a B grade? Do I
have a chance of getting a star really? So is it a lack of smart, intelligent black students? Or is it a lack
of funding, a lack of resources and a lack of support in our schools? That's the question I would want to
ask. Let's have that conversation with whoever saying that.
Ali Abdaal 19:29
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
what should the university do about this, because the problems are more upstream, they're more like
earlier on in life earlier in childhood, like the school system, the education system. And then when it
comes to the actions of an individual university, you start saying, well, it's not their fault that like, I don't
know, the low performing schools don't like encourage the students as much, etc, etc. And then the
conversation goes so far back and so abstract, that it stops becoming about things that universities can
do. And they often use that as an excuse to not then do stuff.
Vee Kativhu 20:51
Oh no, the conversation is still very much about what the university's can do. Because let me tell you,
the journey begins yes with family members and how many Oxbridge students have you had, and then
you get to the school and the lack of resources. But then they get to a point where some of those
students do still make it through that filter system. So you might still have a student like me, who finds
her school, gets to that plays, and finally has an interview at Oxford. Wonderful, fantastic. Now, when
she gets into that interview, there are these things called unconscious biases, right? We need the
universities to start training their professors to start helping them look out for talent that is just beyond
an a start, for example, because they may tell you something that be grey that I'm talking about where
and the next one, a student and a D student, and I've now had to fight for my class, and all the stuff that
B has been earned through Blood, Sweat Tears, it stands at the same position as a star. And people
find it difficult to understand what I'm saying when I say that contextualise it, okay, if you're in a school,
whether four of you and you're learning and your teacher knows how many times you've blinked, your
report card is accurate, it is exactly about you. Whereas some of our report cards are copied and
pasted. When I come up with my B grade or my eighth grade, you better give it some respect. All right.
So when you have things like that, and students like that applying to places like Oxbridge, these
universities need to contextualise look into how did that person get? Was their heating working? Were
they able to study and revise and for them to still have the courage and bravery to apply and make it as
far as an interview? Maybe in the interview, let's give them a chance. You know, maybe because people
connect to people that they're similar to. So when that student walks in and says, Oh my god, I saw you
at the races and my dad always comes to your club and whatever instant connection you're like, they
get it, they'll understand they'll fit it, you get it. Then the student comes in coming in from Hackney they
didn't have the heating on didn't have the school support. They're nervous. They can't look in the eyes.
But they've still applied and they still managed to ace the essay and whatever, whatever. Can we start
contextualising that's what I've got to say.
Ali Abdaal 22:56
You speak pretty passionately about it, I can like feel l the passion.
Vee Kativhu 23:00
Yeah, that's why that's why the channel began, I had too much to say that was pent up inside. And it
was just frustrating. Cuz every time I'd go home, I'd be hearing my friends like coffee, like, what do they
eat over there? Is it lobster like the right the grand Harry Potter like gowns and all this stuff. I'm like,
You're so smart, one of the smartest people I know. But because of a lack of confidence, a lack of
support and a lack of thinking you can fit in a place like that we've lost you. Like you're, you would
never even consider coming to visit me. Because you're afraid of being put in a table with five forks, five
knives, all of this stuff, when you could have actually like, we needed you. You know what I mean? We
needed someone like you. So I get frustrated and passionate. Because I see the students that that are
missing out or that are at the other end of it. I see them and I'm like, man, if the world is just giving you
a little bit of love. Yeah, you could have done wonders. So that's why.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Ali Abdaal 23:57
So given that the world is the way maybe if there's a student in that position, listening or watching to
this, what can they do to kind of help take matters into their own hands while at the same time
campaigning and wishing the world will change alongside?
Vee Kativhu 24:12
Yeah, well, that that is why the book, the channel, anything that I do that's public or on the Internet, why
I do it is for that reason for someone who would have been like me who needed that older Big Sister,
because for example, my mom, I told you, she lets me lead and then she follows right, she would have
never been the one who would have said, Oxford not follow me, and I'll help you like that would have
never happened. She doesn't know anything about it doesn't understand how the system works. And
there are lots of students like that whose parents literally have no clue. So if there's a student like that,
and then she goes to school and the teachers like No, no, no, we're not interested and also a must say
before I answer your question, I don't blame the schools either because sometimes they just don't have
an understanding of oxwich themselves, and they find it intimidating to or is it a little bit like it extra
work. We do personal statement classes for 25 students and now he wants a separate one for
Oxbridge because it's different. We don't have the time or the resources. So it's easier to say no, not
because their hearts are unkind, but it's just what they know, maybe and whatever. So want to highlight
that as well. Like, there could be other reasons. And yeah, I can. I can forgive that. Yeah. But yes, those
students who are at home who are wondering what they can do to kind of help themselves, get on the
internet, watch YouTube channels like mine, that resources are free, that like you don't have to pay for
this. You don't have to have extra private tuition, like get on the internet. There are so many study
tubers out there. So many blogs out there, there are so many helpful things and sign up for free
classes, like Empowered by Vee. Like I hate to be that person. But things like in Empowered by Vee,
where every year we'll have these annual events that are free having students like myself or Jade or I
mean, we're gonna get you on that one day, people like Jack, Ali coming on to explain their experience,
how they write their personal statements, things that you just can't put a price on this stuff. You know
what I mean? That can be as helpful as what your counterparts I mean, I don't know cuz I've never
been Tarot eaten, but what they could be getting there. Like we're trying to bridge the gap as much as
we can. So use all of these free resources around you because they're there for a reason. And they are
helpful if I must say so.
Ali Abdaal 26:23
Empowered by Vee. Just as an aside, how do you feel about the fact that's called Empowered by Vee?
Like, your name be part of this?
Vee Kativhu 26:33
So basically, that is that is a story within itself, but I wasn't my friends. And I was like, Guys, this event is
coming up. And at the time, we were just calling it that event, the event, the event, the event, I was like,
No, we need to name this is getting ridiculous. It needs a name, like what you want to do, like, what is
what's going on? How to empower people, and then I just call it empowered. And we all loved
empowered, like, yeah, that works great. Then I was just like, it doesn't it doesn't feel complete. There's
something missing. There's something missing. I suggested. I was like, What if we put by V, but a silent
by V. At the time it was silent. So it was like, just didn't notice me doing it. So like, empowered
underneath? Like, it's by Vee? Yeah. Then they're like, No, it needs to be Empowered by Vee together.
And once it began, it was three in the morning. Yeah, we had rich Tissa. tea biscuits. Yeah, we had
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
cups of teas. There was no turning back. And I was like, okay, okay, we'll do it for now. But I was like, I
don't know, if it's a right thing to have my name in there, because they're finding their empowerment for
themselves. And we're just helping facilitate that. We're not empowering them. They're, they're just
looking for it. You know? It was too late. By the time we have the event. Your students loved it. They're
like, Yes, this is what it's all about. Whoo. And I try to change every year, we do a survey. I'm like, guys,
we're gonna change it to something else. They're like, No, then I was like, Fine, we'll have to call it EBV.
So I refer to as EBV. Because I'm like, you know, it feels more comfortable. But then now Empowered
by Vee. So it's stuck now. And there's so many times I wishing you how many times this conversation
happens. Every like, right? It's getting bigger now. Like we've got 15,000 Students tuned in. Can we
change it before we get to 20? Yeah. Like, no, no, no, no one wants to hear it. And no one wants to
hear it. So yeah, I hope that doing the book in Call of the book empowered. People think I'm so what
the book Yeah. But now I'm like, now it's just confusing, because two things like empowered overwritten
by veto power baby the event. Yeah. I don't know where we go from here. The branding is not quite
right.
Ali Abdaal 28:40
So when Jade was on the podcast, and we were talking about her book, the only study guide you'll ever
need. She mentioned about how she cringed at first about the name. It's like, oh, it's a bit much. Yeah,
then it kind of grows on you. And you realise, actually, I like, I just thought was great name. I think
Empowered by Vee is a great name, but I guess like as Vee. You feel a bit weird about that.
Vee Kativhu 29:00
Yeah, and I thought about, like, I'm sure there are people out there who you know, like, I don't know,
Tommy Hilfiger, Marc Jacobs, were at first they thought, Oh, we're gonna really now snowball, right?
And I think for people who encounter it for the first time, or just come into it, it's just, it's just a name. But
for me, I'm like, because I start to think about the word the meaning and like my V and what does that
mean? Am I the one doing it? Yeah. But I You have to sometimes also let things have their own life.
Yeah. So this is now beyond me. Which is crazy to say when this got my name, but it's not outside of
me. Like the students have ownership of this now. And I love that they get to shape and craft, what the
things we talk about are what that platform looks like, what the Instagram does, like how that platform in
space helps them they shape it. So I can't take you can't go in and be like, Well, I don't like the name.
So I'm just teens. It's too late. Now, actually, if I wanted to three years There was a time now.
Ali Abdaal 30:02
So what? What is Empowered by Vee?
Vee Kativhu 30:03
Yes, I love that question. People always like, I don't want to ask because you're so passionate about it,
and like, you talked about it for so long, but can you just tell me what it is. But um, yeah, it's an
academic empowerment platform. So we're just bridging the gap between academic ability which the
students already have, and self belief, which they don't have. So we're just trying to merge the two
together to be like you are that person, you better own it, and start taking up your space, because the
world is it's yours for the taking. And you can't help where you were born, you can't help the situation
that you're in. But you can help how you react to it, and what you do moving forward. So take those bad
moments, reframe them, if the glass is half full, or half empty, look at it as half full, always, never half
empty. Because the moment you start looking at is half empty, you're missing opportunities, you're
literally missing out what that half glass of water could do for you could save your life, right? But you're
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so focused on the lack of that, no. And I always tell my students as well that even if you have walked a
really difficult journey in life, that doesn't make you less than if anything, it makes you phenomenal.
Because if you can end up in the same seat in the same table as other people who've, obviously, and
this is the thing, people often think that I'm really angry people who've had an amazing life. I'm like, No,
that is what everyone wants to have, like, I want my children to not have to suffer, like, I don't think your
achievements are more, we should cut for them more because you had to struggle, like I don't want
people to struggle. That is the whole point of everything we're doing. Like, we need everyone to be in a
place where they can have things they like without having to have Blood, Sweat Tears. But if you have
had to have that, that that shouldn't be something you're embarrassed about. Like if anything, there is
strength in your story, there is strength in the journey, you've walked and be proud of it. Because if
that's what you can do, when you didn't have a lot, imagine when you have the resources, you're going
to be unstoppable. Like we shouldn't be afraid right now, like you are on, on your journey to just do an
amazing thing. So that is that is what we try to do in Power BI. We just trying to let students know that
you are worthy of everything you want, you're worthy of being successful. You can't let your star
determine your end. That is not how it works. And we're gonna reframe.
Ali Abdaal 32:23
What does that look like in practice? Like, how do you Yeah, empower people like this?
Vee Kativhu 32:27
We have workshops, so many empowerment workshops, which run for like two weeks, for example.
And we'll take students, they'll come along, we'll ask them surveys, what are the things that you're
struggling with most? And where do you think you need help with the most? They'll tell us and it's
typically it's always, always things like, I don't think I deserve this, or my family comes from this
background. And I'm just not sure people will look at me in a respectful light, or always, it's never to do
with, can you help me with getting better grades, it's never that they know that they're smart, it's always
people just don't support me, or I don't have that empowerment circle around me or people who are
telling me you can do it. And then we become that for them. So we figure out what they are struggling
with. And then for the two weeks I just work with it was kind of like coaching in a way that coaching and
talking to them and working through that with them. That's one element, then the biggest element is the
event, which is the annual event that we do in getting all these people who I consider experts in their
field. My friends are phenomenal. I think they're doing great things. And we get them in and like okay,
JD, you're great at the person statements. Okay, even if you're great at talking about mental health, and
all this other stuff. So we bring them together and have this massive conference. And the students are
taking notes. They're taking like mad notes. And then they always tell us because we get feedback, the
feedback we get is crazy. They'll tell us like after three months, we'll come back and be like, by the way,
the notes I've made are empowered by VB event, I'm still referring to Nan I'm still using it like I am
feeling it. So it's just about giving people a boost. And letting them know you can do it because
sometimes it actually is just that someone has literally never told you I can see you you're worthy of this
and you can do it go and people can change your mindset. Like for me if that teacher told me yes. Ah,
that no shattered me and I didn't apply me and I didn't until I got that foundation you the next year. So it
can change everything for you even though you have those A's that no or I don't believe in you. Game
Changer.
Ali Abdaal 34:31
I feel like it's such a privileged upbringing in that no one ever really said no. And like you know, things
are going well you get good grades, like obviously gonna apply to Oxford or Cambridge, obviously
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going to go for medicine. Cool. Let's go for it like no real adversity along the way. And I guess I also
don't speak to enough people who have actually had some level of adversity in their lives to actually
just like, appreciate that that's a thing. It sounds like what you're saying is that for a lot of these people,
they need that just just Just that boost of motivation that actually, you can just do it.
Vee Kativhu 35:03
That is it. Because imagine, when you're at your lowest, like, whatever that looks like for you or
whoever else, when you're at your lowest moment, or you've won an outfit and you're doubting it, you're
already like, look in the mirror, like, I shouldn't go out like this. And Uber's outside is telling you, come
on, come on, let's go. And then you bump into someone on your way out. And they're like, Oh, what are
you wearing? It's just confirmed all your fears, you're going back in that house, and you're going to
change like that, oh, if you do leave, you're going to be looking down and thinking I should have never
worn this enclosing a jacket. And that is the same element of like, support that people need in their
regular lives. You're already thinking man, like, we live above the chicken shop, right? We live above
the chicken shop is always so noisy. People already look down on me at school, they laugh at me, we
don't have enough money. There's no gas, electricity. And I'm going to go and sit next to people who
are going to be the future Prime Ministers at Oxford. No way I can never go there. And then finally get
courage to like Tony Tito, maybe I'm thinking of it. And they tell you it's not people like us. Your fears are
already on the brink, what you the last thing you need is someone to confirm them, especially when
they're not true. And it's just like, it's just not even true. Your fears getting confirmed. Worst thing, so we
have to come in and like try to undo that. And some of the stuff is years in the making. This is from high
school, primary school just always been circles of people just being like, This is it. There's nothing more
to it. And like I need to come in and be like, come on. Got this. And at first they're like, Look at this girl
was shown about like boost of energy. Get out of here. And by the end of it, they're like, Yeah, I can't do
it. And then when I get the emails being like I applied my god him, yeah. Just fills me with joy. And it's
everyday I get this message every day. Vee by the way, like I will never applied.
Ali Abdaal 36:53
He kind of strike me as like the modern day Tony Robbins and like great way. Because like I think every
generation has these kind of motivational people that really what they do is they empower people and
kind of give them permission to do the thing, which they already have in them anyway. Yeah. You know,
Tony Robbins that this book called The magic of thinking big, which like had an enormous impact on
me, like 10 years ago when I first discovered this kind of stuff. And it sounds like that's what you're
doing for kind of this, this current generation of students.
Vee Kativhu 37:23
And it happened by mistake. Yeah, it happened. It was just anger. Like it came from anger, of sitting
there constantly at university in that foundation yet. And just seeing the things I was just seeing him like,
hearing or feeling and I thought to myself, Why am I looking down on myself? Why am I looking in the
mirror? And imposter syndrome was hitting me. I just kept thinking, they've definitely made a mistake.
They're gonna genuinely come in here and be like, what? Like you're the first in your school like your
family? Do they even know what Oxbridge stands for? Like most of them and Miuccia, like, What are
you talking about? Oxford? Cambridge, together, Oxford? Oh, okay. Like it's that kind of conversation
you're having you're not starting with which college is starting with? This is what Oxford isn't. This is
why I want to go there. So I just thought, What are you doing here and after I met the people I met, and
they told me that they've had five brothers and sisters come here, and their parents met here and like
their dad pay for that building. And I'm like, the first time I saw Oxford was when I went to move in. That
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was the first time I stepped foot in the city, literally University was moving in day. And these were telling
me they've grown up coming here for picnics and lunch and you feel so out of place. It is ridiculously
thought. Now, like, I can't believe I was gonna not come here. And Oxford, by the way is a
representation of whatever it is in your life that you're thinking of. It could be your dream job could be
your dream, whatever. I just happened to experience this. I thought I was gonna not be here because of
a lack of confidence and a lack of support. And it just frustrated me. Like, I was so mad. I was so mad.
And I started the channel. And I think one of the first videos I ended up deleting it, because it was it was
like, it's so diverse, is it? No, it's not what we're gonna change that and I was literally screaming. And
then obviously, the channel took shape and now it's in a better place.
Ali Abdaal 39:19
It seems like you're genuinely kind of mission and purpose driven. Thinking like a really. Okay, so the
reason I'm so surprised by this is because like, you know, there's there's a quote, which apparently is
often attributed to JP Morgan, which is that you know, someone always has two reasons for doing
something. The good reason and the real reason. And if I think about my motivations for starting a
YouTube channel, yeah, I could say that you know, there's, you know, I want to help people I like
teaching people study tips and the comments are nice and all that kind of stuff. But really, if I dig deep, I
love the attention of the admiration the the social status, the prestige The money associated with that,
that kind of stuff. And if I have to be honest with myself, then that's probably a significant part of why I
do the YouTube thing and the internet thing on top of like the whole Yeah, helping people aspect of it.
That's interesting. I'm just kind of curious like it because because for you, it really sounds like the
helping people. It's like the majority of it.
Vee Kativhu 40:21
Yeah, well, the thing is, before I began YouTube, I didn't know anybody in YouTube, like, all my friends
or people that I've known is through doing it and like the reach out, I reached out, and then now you
cross paths, and then you become friends. Right? But I didn't know anybody. And I didn't really
consume YouTube. I still don't right now, people always asked me who's your favourite YouTuber? Who
do you watch? I don't really use the app. For my overs. I just upload and I go, right. So when I started it,
you had to imagine like, no one, no one I knew was doing it. And I would, I will share the link on
Facebook for my friends and family to like, share to their, to their nieces, nephews, whatever. I was like,
Oh, we can get 100 people. We did something like it never. It just never crossed my mind that YouTube
could be a job that blew me even when the management approach to me, because I was like, I just, I
don't know why I didn't know because I guess no one talks about it on the internet really, like now it's
more open with people like you as well, sharing the stats and the figures and stuff. But I just didn't know
you could actually have a living on there in sustain yourself. So I was working in McDonald's before I
went to uni. So from McDonald's, I was not thinking, I was like, we want to get to you know, go to
Starbucks, like who knows? You know, that is literally what I was thinking. And so starting it, it would be
so hard for my brain to have known that. Yeah. And I remember literally saving every last penny spec
and really to get something like a camera or something that we can use because my sister was like, oh
my god, like, that's money you're never gonna see again, you know, like, it's gonna be gone. I was like,
Well, you know, if I want to make videos, what am I going to do? And I, no one would have ever told me
it was an investment because it's going to return me. I don't even think like that. So I don't know. Like if
I had to try and think of what the real reason I was just angry. That is, if I hadn't gotten to Oxford, I don't
think I'd start the YouTube channel. It just came from people kept asking me questions like, What do
they eat there? How do you do this? It's just send a link, it's easier to send a link it was I guess that
could be the real reason. Laziness. I couldn't be bothered to keep saying the same thing over and over
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again. Let's put it on a channel. Let's have everyone watching it in their bedroom, you can go back,
pause, rewind, whatever. So I don't know.
Ali Abdaal 42:44
So the success that you've had now on on YouTube one, one thing that a lot of YouTubers talk about is
as the channel goes bigger, even like what what started as a vehicle for empowering people giving
good educational content, that kind of stuff now becomes like, oh, will this video do well? How did that
video perform? You know, if I feel depressed? Because my video didn't perform very well? How do you
feel about the stats?
Vee Kativhu 43:09
I hate that feature on the thing anyway, about this 1 out of 10, 10 out of 10. Before that, I really like I just
didn't I didn't think it was necessary. I don't know who said yeah, let's give that feature a go. But please
remove it wherever you are YouTube world. But once again, my mom, she, she is so good at keeping
anybody's feet on the ground, as in shipping. Whoa, whoa, whoa, did you see that like, over 100 people
commented, we can fit them in our back garden to give them tea to say thank you. I'm like, Mom, you're
so right. Like, we actually couldn't fit these people on our street, or in our back garden. So for me to
ever be ungrateful or not ungrateful, that's wrong, because it is a craft is a job. And I can see why
people be bothered about if it doesn't perform well. But for me to be if it's had 10,000 people watch it.
That's a lot of people. When artists do sell out a shirt, it's 10,000. They're like, whoo. But now the
internet obscures our view and makes 10,000 seems small. It's like, I don't know, the numbers are so
big to me. They just are so massive. And the fact that people were watching your story and you have
like 10 replies I like these are 10 human beings who are coming into your world and then leaving a
comment or leaving a like or watching. I can't I don't know how to explain it. My family just celebrate
everything. And if I was to ever go to them and say, Oh, my God only got 10,000 views. They would
humble me so quickly. That was 10,000 people. This didn't exist a few years ago. And maybe also I
need to start having that mindset of like, keeping track and tabs on the numbers and stuff because I
don't know. I don't know. I don't know but I As of right now, it's like, what was the purpose of the video or
the channel? And if the purpose is to reach people, 10,000 people is not a bot like 10 is a lot of people.
Now if you get 100,000 or a million, that's like a bonus, you know? And I don't know, I wish I wish
people could like spy on my family for a week. And just see us when this because I think people often
think Oh, because the cameras on Yeah, that I have to see this stuff, or that I have to be like, super
positive and like, Whoo, yeah, I wish you could see the family with no camera. But this is us. 24/7 and
Jade. I went to visit her in Berlin. And she just been on a bike accident. And I was so sad for her and I
went to see her. And my mom was like, Oh, she was feeling it. She was like, Oh my God. I thought it
can when it happened. It felt as though you didn't even feel any offence stop it. But she's so like, in tune
with her emotions and stuff. And then when I went to TJ, TJ was like, write this in a card for me because
I couldn't see her. So she texted me and said, put it in a card. As Jade was reading it. She was crying. I
was like, Why can't he like, oh, so shocked. I wrote it out for her. I was like, why are you crying? She's
like, Does your mom speech like this all the time? Is this is how you are like, Yeah, first, you got hit by a
bike. So she's gonna tell you like, get rid of the victory slayers the people who don't want to see you
when your light shines, it was full of all this stuff. And Jade was like, literally sobbing. And I was like, Oh,
I said, No one says this stuff to me. And I calmly raised on this. I was like, This is so normal to me. That,
like what I read, I was like, this is her thing. Like it was seen. Right? So if you saw our family behind the
scenes, it's just constant. We just, we live for this.
Ali Abdaal 46:40
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So it's like kind of constantly. The grid the like the gratitude stuff.
Vee Kativhu 46:45
Yeah, we really are. And I think also, it's when you seen what the other side of not having it is like,
right? I'm very, very aware that any woman all of this could disappear at any moment. It could
disappear. And I could easily there is no reason why I could easily not be working at McDonald's again,
right? Like, yes, of course. Now it's a bit different, maybe with the degrees and all this stuff. But if years
ago there is what is the real difference between my sister and I, because she's still at home, right? And
she's still working a regular job and all this stuff. And I just happened to me this new world. But
whenever I go home, I like my mom, my sister, my mom is running for the bus every single day. She's
just she worked through her driving lessons. I don't know why. But she's still running for the bus every
single day. And if I'm gonna go somewhere with her, we get in the bus and my sister still works a
regular job. And if I say to her on my birthday, or I really want this she's like, Excuse me, that's 50
pounds takes me this minimum hours to get you're not having that. It's still I can never lose sight of it.
Because it's it's just there is at home and when I call my family in Zimbabwe, like it's, I don't know, so
10,000 We celebrate that. It's not an alone number to us.
Ali Abdaal 47:55
That's pretty good. I'm gonna I'm gonna clip that and like save it on my on my computer. Whenever I
see like a 10 out of 10 video be like no I need some motivation from Vee.
Vee Kativhu 48:04
Call my mom. I'm telling you this woman. She's got some classic things that she says. And growing up
I'll just be like, Oh, but Mom. Like all my friends have Barbie dolls. And they're going to get them for
Christmas and I really want one. What couldn't afford a new Barbie doll? No way. She took me to the
car boot sale and we would go through the secondhand stuff and then find a Barbie doll. I'm like what
mom like it's got a scratch and it's missing like an ear. She's like, No, no, you're looking at it wrong.
reframe it. This Barbie doll is so special. She's got a story to tell your friends Barbie doll like it's brand
new. Great. I'm happy for them. But look at us like can you imagine what happened for her to lose her
hair? You can imagine anything you want and your book is going to teach and what was the person
reading think she would make everything so much fun and nothing was ever be sad about this. It was
like no embrace it like we found a popular special in the back of the corner like you were meant for her.
You were supposed to save her did it that kind of stuff that was hot all the time.
Ali Abdaal 49:02
It's so weird. I'm like tearing up as you're describing that. I'm like, I'm like feeling the passsion.
Vee Kativhu 49:09
Oh, stop!
Ali Abdaal 49:14
Yeah, it's such an unusual amount of like, this positivity that you don't encounter in real life normally.
Vee Kativhu 49:20
Yeah, no, I get this all the time. Yeah, even my friends that I'm friends with now that actually like like I
really thought it was because your Instagram telling your story needs to be jazzy. Like you wake up like
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this. Yeah. You're like singing and dancing. And I to me, it's so normal. Like I don't even see as I am a
certain way. I just think this is this is it you have one life. Not going to waste it being sad.
Ali Abdaal 49:46
Love it. I have so many questions. So it's a it's pretty nice. It's like it's like very, very like nicely. Nice,
nicely packed. Initially when I heard you were you were when when I heard you were writing a book I
just sort of had in my head like, the standard penguin nonfiction book. It's just so pretty.
Vee Kativhu 50:08
Yeah. I for I made sure like, my editor is really incredible. Like I keep saying she, she really knew me
well, because she'd already studied my channel before she reached out. And she'd had an idea. And
the fact is, as well, she messaged me what she thought she wanted me to write. And I already had a
Google doc of like, what I would want to write in the future. If I had a book, it matched so much. That's
why I was like, yes. Because for me, now that you've understood me, we've never spoken before. And
you've actually gotten the vision from watching random bits of live videos. And I was like, Yeah, we're
doing this. So when it came time for the colours or the book, she already knew it's not an explosion of
yellow, bright sunshine, and someone feels happy when they see it. I don't want it like we're not doing
the cool thing, or like it needs to be on No, I want it to be exactly what's gonna be inside there. So I got
the gold little bits, because when you finish reading it, I want you to just feel like you can take over the
world.
Ali Abdaal 51:09
So the first chapter is about finding your purpose. Yeah. So okay, let's say I don't I don't really have one
more and more my purposes. Yeah. How do I how do I go about slash? How does a viewer listener go
about? Answering this question of like, What the hell is my purpose?
Vee Kativhu 51:22
Yeah, that's a question I get all of the time. And I always say, what is what is that thing, that thing that
just, you can't stay away from it? You keep thinking about it. And obviously this can go wrong. I do
understand that. You can be thinking some bad things and encouraging the wrong thing. But let's just
begin of the base. That is a good thing. It's a regular thing, right? What is that thing that you can't get off
your mind and debate you on the bus and you literally strangers, you have to turn around and chime in
or anytime you have chance to do three things, your research and it like you just can't stay away from
it. What is that thing? That thing has something in me that is driving you like you want to be a part of it?
You want to what what would you want to do for free? If you didn't have to think about bills and all this
other stuff? What would you happen you dedicate your time to? For free, and that thing, that thing is
embedded in your purpose? That's a good starting point. So you figure out what that thing is. And then
you follow that track? For me helping people okay, you want to help people? If you What do you always
do what he was doing? Oh, in classic get in trouble for teaching people you always find yourself
speaking up? Or maybe it's education, I don't know. And then you start to like, go down the rabbit hole
until you figure out what that specific niche within it is. And also, when you're finding your purpose. It's
not like you have to make a lifelong decision like you're married to. And that's the end of all, no, you
could have a purpose that you want to pursue for the next three years. And that's that, and then you're
done with it, and you want to move on to something else. That's okay. Finding Your purpose is not it's
not final. It's like what Michelle Obama says you're becoming, you're always constantly becoming,
things might change. Who knows what the intelligence we're doing, I hope she'll be doing this, but I
might fall out of love with it. Or I might feel like I've given all I can given there's nothing else things are
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not gonna I don't know, who knows. But it could change. But for now, figure out what you can't stay
away from what is always on your mind, what keeps you awake at night, what world problem bothers
you to the core. And that is where YouTube began, right? I was like, Man, the lack of diversity is so
annoying, I'm going to start a channel. So it could be I hate the way that I keep seeing dogs being
treated when when they're stray dogs or when they're abandoned. Oh, I'm going to go to the vet, and
then you're talking to the veteran, you want to work experience and you figure out this new thing you
want to do. You just kind of like, you need to track it trace that thing don't like ignore the thing that's
living in your heart. You know what I mean?
Ali Abdaal 53:49
Let's say you're halfway through your JPMorgan internship. And the bros are like, heavy, how do I find
my purpose like for because like, the way you're describing the purpose stuff is very, like mission
driven, like, you know, what, what, what do you wanna you want to solve? And to be honest, I think
almost my friends and me as well, like, we don't really have that, Oh, my God, I just feel so passionate
about like, diversity, that that's going to be my problem. And equally, I can imagine that much of my
friends who now work out to places like JPMorgan and McKinsey and stuff, and optically thinking, Well,
how am I going to change the world, that kind of thinking, I want to make a lot of money and have a
good life like, well,
Vee Kativhu 54:27
I'm pretty sure that when you're at JPMorgan, or wherever you are, I'm pretty sure when you get home,
there is something that has your interest, there is something that you try to fit in your spare hours,
because you can't because of work, right? There is a thing, you've got skills, things that you're just good
at whether you love it or not, you're good at it. Then you have things that you really care about or that
you want to be in. You have to find a way of merging those two worlds, right? You want to be able to go
to work or go to the thing that you spend most your time doing, and love it. So if you're at JPMorgan
and yes, you You're doing amazing, you're getting all the promotions in the world, but you're still feeling
like something's missing, then that's obviously not your your, your purpose your purpose is, is the thing
that you're rushing out of work to go home to do. And that could be gaming, I don't know, it could be
wanting to create the most diverse game, or maybe the most interesting game that young people can
use. Because I don't know, maybe you want to use a game that people who might have disabilities can
use to do the dinner, like, you need to just find what your interest is, and then unpack it from there. So
even if it is painting, or maybe you love skateboarding, or whatever it may be people had to create
Microsoft, right? We had to get a version of Microsoft. And that probably came from someone being
like, I like coding, or I like doing the dirt. And now Microsoft went on to help people do different things.
Like we use Microsoft for good, you know? So I think it's thinking about what what do you like to do in
your spare time, in your spare time when no one is wanting to in you, while you're not being paid?
You're on holiday? Is Christmas break? Okay, you're at your mom's house, it's Christmas break, there's
a week, what you're going to spend your hours doing. And you might find yourself on the trading apps
or the stocks apps. And you might find actually, I just like making a lot of money. That's okay, too. You
just got to live for you. And if that thing that you're doing is making you happy, if JPMorgan makes you
happy? It doesn't have to you don't have to call it your purpose. You just call it the reason I'm leaving? I
don't know.
Ali Abdaal 56:36
Yeah, on the thing of kind of finding your purpose, there's a phrase that I heard, which is that, you know,
that that that thing that you think about in the shower is probably the thing that you should you should
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probably be doing. That's what I'm talking about. And that was that was really helpful for me when I was
trying to figure out, do I want to continue doing medicine or not? Because I never think about medicine
in the shower. And I was like, Okay, interesting. And then like, at some point further down the line, I was
doing a whole like deep dive into the internet, and books and stuff to dance this question of like, how do
you figure out what to do with your life? That was another exercise I came across, which was kind of
like the sort of ideal ordinary week, three years from now, like, fast forward, you get your Google
Calendar, whatever, and just block out, what would you like to be doing? What is your ideal? That and
you know, what are the what are the sort of hobbies? What are the things you want to try out? What's
on the bucket list? And yeah, I kind of did this. And I was like, half an hour later, I was like, there was no
mention of medicine anywhere on this list. Ah, that's annoying. Yeah, they're really, I really wanted to
feel passionate about the medicine stuff. And I just realised, it doesn't really, it didn't really feel like my
purpose, it didn't really feel like my jam is likely. And then that was the whole, like, sunk cost thing
around it the whole while I've invested eight years into this already, the whole lot of people gonna say,
what's my mom gonna say people on the internet gonna hate me for this. Because if you suddenly
leave the NHS, it's a big deal, etc, etc. But it's so it's like, for me, I guess it's still a work in progress. But
I keep looking for other ways to kind of, because I think like, as you said, it's not a permanent decision.
Like, I think a lot of people think of the idea of I need to find my purpose as this is the thing I will do for
the next 80 years of my life. Yeah, but the way I kind of try and think of it is more like, this is just the
next season of my life. And for the next season of my life. I like the idea of, you know, the thing I think
about the flower is making YouTube videos. So let's just do more of that. And then maybe my plans will
change five years from now, but trying to try not to think too hard about it further down the line.
Vee Kativhu 58:26
Yeah, I love that. I really, really love that you said that about this is just the season. And if that season
last 30 years, great. You had a great season, you know, like it's fine, if it happens to last a year, okay,
like I just quit my job I do. I just quit my job a week ago. And I feel great about it. I thought it was gonna
be one thing that turned out to not and, and I'm not going to keep myself trapped in something because
I announced it to the internet like that, that point that is when I know that something has gone wrong for
me. Because that's not why we're here. That's not what this is all about. And if I now start shaping my
life based on what will do better, they will perform better in the views or what people will think about it,
then something has gone really wrong.
Ali Abdaal 59:15
There's a quote that I wanted to run past you that I've been thinking about recently, which is that your
passion is for you. Your purpose is for others. Discuss.
Vee Kativhu 59:25
Your passion is for you. And your purpose is for others. I suppose I can see what they're saying. Like
you could, you could have a purpose that you're serving, but you're not passionate about it. Like
medicine, right? You could be a really great doctor. And obviously when you are there doing your doctor
and stuff, you're saving lives, right? And that obviously serves all of us and the NHS in the UK and we
appreciate it. But if you're not passionate about it, then you're not pouring into you. You're now running
on empty so I think I agree with that quote, like your passion has to be something for you. So you need
to love medicine, you need to have you read when breath is air, yes. Like he was living in LA for
surgery, right? Like, even his dying days, he was so committed to it, because it was everything for him.
Now imagine if it wasn't like, I don't think that book could have read the same, right? You can hear it.
And I think I think your your passion does need to be something that you love something that is in your
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core, and then the purpose follows it right? Because you can serve others when you're at 100%. Yeah,
it's it's pretty hard. Like even I guess, celebrities when they've got all of this money, and they've got all
of the time and all the stuff, when they choose their causes the campaigning for technically, they could
put that money to good use for different things. But they have to choose something that they're not just
the face off, like you need to be able to show up, we need more than just you putting your money in.
Okay, it needs to be more than just a quick Instagram tag, like, do you really care? And I think that's
that's the beauty of being able to define what that means. Because anyone could come up to me and
say, but the the climate crisis is more in education right now. Right? What could justify any of the 17
Sustainable Development? And tell you that actually should be this one that you're focusing on? Yeah.
But if, if my passion is not there, yes, of course, I care about the climate crisis, it affects every single
one of us. But it's not something that I'm gonna invest as much as my time is our education. And that is
okay. Well, one person, you are not a time traveller, you can't be everywhere at once. So find what it is
that for now you care about? Who knows, in five years, I could be the biggest climate activist in the
world. Who knows, for right now, you, this is what I'm doing. I care about it. And I can serve people. And
if you can get those two to meet magic?
Ali Abdaal 1:02:09
Yeah, the analogy that came to mind as you were saying this was, you know, on aeroplanes to, like, put
your own mask on first. Yeah. And then before helping someone else, right, like putting your own mask
on first is finding the thing that you're passionate about that you enjoy. And then you can be like, Alright,
cool. Now that we've ticked that box, let's now turn my attention to kind of helping other people. And if
you try and do the helping other people, without fail, feeling the passion, you end up, like burning out.
Vee Kativhu 1:02:34
That is such a good analogy. And I can actually visually see it, it makes so much sense. Imagine,
imagine trying to put everyone's mask on, you're not on your leash, you're running out of oxygen, you
can do more, when you are at 100%. I always say that it's in the book. And like, you can't give the world
100% When you yourself, don't know what that looks like for you. And when I took that two months off
the internet, to write my book and focus on my degree, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And I will never
try and do it. I will never try and show up when I haven't yet showed up for me. And I know that that can
sound a bit selfish. And I'm good. I'm glad it does. Because you should be selfish with your mental
health, with what your needs are before you try and give to the world because then you'll go resentful.
Okay, you'll grow resentful. Like imagine you put all those masks on everybody else. And there's no
more left for you. Yeah, you're not going to be feeling the greatest. Because you're gonna be like, what
about what about me? Like, who? Who's the doctor for the doctor? Right? That kind of thing. I just
think. Find Find your passion and make sure make sure you feel alive.
Ali Abdaal 1:03:49
Yeah, that's very much the vibe I got. So I did an interview with the Chrissie Chela. Who had that book
over there. Do do this for you. Oh, yeah. Watched a clip. Yeah. She's, she's great. And she's also very,
very much like mission focus to try and kind of empower women to take better care of the health and be
more confident that kind of stuff somewhat similar to your kind of vibes. And she was saying that as
well. Like, you know, she wakes up at five in the morning, which is amazing. And then kind of between
5am and 10am those are hours for her. Oh, she like goes to the gym does a training does a commute,
all that kind of stuff so that when she goes to work she can then show up fully for the mission. But her
needs come first still at the end of the day. I feel like that's like a really great way of of because I think
often there is this like a lionise ation of the motto of the Mater. Like this person is giving so much of
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themselves that they've killed themselves in the pursuit of this like goal. That's like, okay, but it's it's not
very sustainable.
Vee Kativhu 1:04:46
That's why I was saying it earlier about the fact that you you need to he needs to be able to make sure
that you yourself Have you know why you're doing something? And there's a book Start with a why,
right? You got to start with a why? Because if you're, if your mission and your purpose are kind of like,
aimless and you just do it, because you've been told to do it, you'll lose momentum. And I say this to
students as well about choosing your degree, for example, right? Because people always ask me this
question, how do you know the right degree to choose is blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, when your
parents have like, told you, you had to study or society tells you this is the right thing to study. Yeah,
okay, great, you didn't apply, you're gonna get into uni, you're gonna do well, this first few weeks gonna
be great, then that essay crisis is gonna hit. And it will tell you what's gonna keep you going, when
those moments arrive, is your passion for the thing, caring about, oh, my God, I really want to
understand history of my place in the world that, oh, you have to get through this essay, right? That that
little thing then keeps you going. I love my degree, it's just a hard day. Now, hey, in your degree, plus
having the crisis and having to go to the lectures, is going to be a pretty difficult road. So I always tried
to say if you can, because I know that there are people who are in situations where they don't have a
choice, right? This is what you study, because it's what we've always done. So it gets the money. And
that's in a discussion. But if you have the choice, and you're able to exercise it, you better do it.
Because not all people have that. Yeah. So you better use that privilege when you have it.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:25
So changing gears a little bit, we've talked a little bit about purpose. I'm very interested to hear your
thoughts about goals. Okay, because I've been, I don't know, I'm quite anti goals. Okay, so my so my
theory and goals is that a goal is like a fine if it's like, it sort of gives you a direction. But then I find it
helpful to just like, forget about the goal. Because the way I think of it is like it's it's not really about the
destination. It's far more about the journey. Yeah, as Miley Cyrus says it's the climb. And you know, one
of the things that I can do, kind of day to day, that will help make my life more fulfilling or more more
more meaningful and more impactful. without really thinking about like, the destination, I'm trying to get
to.
Vee Kativhu 1:07:10
Interesting, I might have to disagree, because he cares. So you're trying to make your life better trying
to like put systems in place that can help make it easier, like what you're seeing, like day to day, right.
But also, the thing with goals is they don't lock you into anything, right. And I speak about that, in my
book, when I'm talking about the goal setting systems that I use, they don't have to lock you into
anything make you if your goals lock you into something, you're doing it wrong, they need to be
adjustable, they need to be able to change depending on the context. You can't be like, the goal is to be
a cheerleader at Harvard, and then a pandemic hits, what do you do now we just give up on the
Harvard dream. No, you have to adjust to your circumstances and your situation, financial pandemic,
whatever it is. So I think that your goals, they shouldn't be locking you in, they should be something that
you can adapt, and doing them regularly helps as well. So being like, Ah, I have to do this one thing.
And that's what my life is different towards it already, you can see where the flaws are in that every
every month or every two months, people do tend to do three months quarterly, whatever it may be,
every month or so. What season Am I in what prioritise what do I want to prioritise right now, and then
having something you're working towards, because for example, saving, like, imagine just saving,
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there's no goal that you're saving for when that Nando's takeaway temptation comes up, you're gonna
get it. But if you have a rough idea, like, oh, I roughly want to save for my first deposit from my home
and I need 30 grand or something. And the next three years, it means that every any save 10 Which
means that you're six months five, which means this month, does rise at home. So like it it kind of
helps, but I can agree with you about the idea of the things that are permanent, nothing should ever be
permanent. I don't care whether it's marriage, whether it's home, whether it's even your degree or your
job, nothing should ever because you're evolving human you're multifaceted your emotions, change
your goals, change whatever it may be, but I think to not have goals, all I can say is I struggle to see
where the motivation will come from. Because like you could wake up every day and decide. I don't
know you just wake up every day and then you're just doing what I don't get it.
Ali Abdaal 1:09:36
Okay, so if I think back to when I started the YouTube channel, yeah, people were like, what it goes to
the channel and I think generally what people are expecting is some kind of number that I want to hit
10k subs, I want to hit whatever. Okay, and my philosophy on this was always like, I don't care about
the number I just want to make one video one video every week. If I can just make one video a week
and that's what good sees me that's a goal. Okay, yeah, input goals versus outcome goals. Okay, so
one video a week is an input goal that's 100%. within my control, okay, whether my video gets 10,000
views or not, is broadly outside of my control. Yeah. So, with with that in mind, what's your? What's your
stance on output goals? Or outcome goals? Rather?
Vee Kativhu 1:10:30
Oh, it's tricky. It's tricky. It's tricky, because I can see, I can see why people would need them because
they're like, oh, this idea of the million subscribers, like, that's what's going to be driving me. Whereas
for me, I'm more like you in the sense of, why don't we just think about the systems that we're going to
have? And if it so happens that you get the million? Fair enough. It's like, even with graduating like my
mom, I mean, like, she doesn't expect anything off. She did graduate, but she didn't necessarily care
what I graduated with. Like there was no it's not a first class. Don't bother. She was like, if you enjoy
your time you learn stuff. You put yourself out there, you raise your hand in class, you actually immerse
yourself in this awkward experience, and you own it as your own. For me and her I'd reached the goal.
Like the moment I finished my exams, I close my laptop, because obviously I was at home. I walked
downstairs to like a party. Like my mom was there was we didn't even know my results yet. Did they
even send off to the computer crash? No, but I finished Yeah. And that was what we cared about. So I
can see what you're saying. And maybe actually, I live my life, avoiding the output goals, big strong
things, but you still need something. Like, it's like a to do list. We all we all like what I say real. I love it
to do this. Because when you take it off, you just feel like imagine being like your to do list is in your
head. And it doesn't matter. As long as you wake up today. Right? It's gonna be like, you could just
spend the whole day just on Netflix. Yeah. So I don't know, I find it tricky to see how you could live
without any type of gold. Sure. Yeah. Maybe what maybe maybe the discussion is what's the version of
gold?
Ali Abdaal 1:12:10
Yeah, no, I think I think it is that because like, I, I have loads goals, but they're all like, broadly input
goals that are within my control.
Vee Kativhu 1:12:18
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Yeah, that's okay, too. Yeah. I didn't think I don't think it has. I don't think people need to put pressure
on themselves to be like, if if I finished law school, I've got to be a lawyer now. Said who? What if you
have a friend like right now, and I won't say his name, I don't know if he cares me say this, but I have a
friend who's doing medicine. And he literally has no desire to practice it. He just enjoyed learning it.
He's gonna he's gonna be a doctor, by the time January arise and where I'm so excited for him. Like, I
can't wait to help him plants graduation party, and the fact that he doesn't want to be a doctor. Now, let's
figure out what you want to do. I don't think the degree is a waste in my eyes, like, I didn't think that
ultimately, this goal is only achieved if you then become a doctor and, and I want to raise my kids like
that.
Ali Abdaal 1:13:07
Okay, so because Okay, so continuing, like, because I'm, I'm, I'm really curious about your, about your
thoughts on the on this goal stuff? So Would would you set the goal of get into Harvard? Or would you
set a goal of applied to Harvard with the best application I can? I can do.
Vee Kativhu 1:13:21
Okay, that is that is good. Really good stuff about mine, personally, which I don't know if it's going to
contradict what I said would be the gaming in the gaming in would be one thing is staying in is another
and the graduating is another okay, I would split them into three. Whereas I feel like other people would
put the getting and staying in and graduating is like one thing and a goal falls apart if one element is not
there. For me, the getting in is like oh my god, like this genuinely happened. We had a party for the get
in in when I flew things. I was at a party and then now the graduation you saw in the garden, like it was
genuinely three elements and there's gonna be another one cuz this they're doing in person at Harvard
sales, we go again, but and that's, that's great. That's okay. So I don't know if that answers your
question. But I will split it into other than applying part. Yeah, but even though I still celebrate that as
well, because I have lots of students that come up to me, like, I applied for Oxford got the interview, and
I didn't end up getting in, I'm like, hello, you still got the interview. Like that is amazing, right? So I think
it depends on the individual and how they want to break it down. But for me, it was looking at that NBA
situation. The getting in is one part of the situation than the actual enjoying it staying in if my mental
health is not doing well when I'm there if it's not what I enjoy, I'm going to leave but it doesn't take away
from the fact that I got it. And then if I end up making it to graduation, my God that's like a whole nother
thing. Just basically, I guess find ways to throw as many parties Yeah. So I live life
Ali Abdaal 1:15:00
And the other way, like motivation is, is through these like little successes. And the more you can
celebrate the successes along the way, the more motivation there is fun and life is good.
Vee Kativhu 1:15:08
And you don't discriminate within them. Like I said, when I walked down the stairs after finishing the last
exam, Oxford, the party was really happening. And my family would not have treated that party
differently. Had their have that ended up being a fail in the grading whatever. They that party still has its
moment. So I think it's really respecting each part of the process as well. If you're gonna go down the
route of focusing on your input goals, you might as well do it properly.
Ali Abdaal 1:15:38
Yeah, that makes sense. But there's two goals. Yeah, those two goals, I think, yeah. I think about ever
even goals is actually like a semantic thing. I do believe in goals, just really goals in my control and
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input goals. Yeah, because like, you know, I'm working on a book at the moment. And when I, there's
like, two different goals, that I have had different points. One of them is, I want us to hit the New York
Times bestseller list. And the other one is, I want to write a book I'm proud of. And when I think about
that, first one, it sucks. All of the motivation out of writing this book.
Vee Kativhu 1:16:11
That's such a shame because what you're doing there is you've placed the importance and the
success of the book in the New York Times,
Ali Abdaal 1:16:23
Yeah and like what other people have decided, as opposed to what they've decided about it.
Vee Kativhu 1:16:27
Whereas, like if the book is great. And let's just say it hits the UK and does amazing the UK, but people
are really using it. And they are they're opening that thing they're highlighting there. They're putting
different bookmarks, they're like printing it out, telling their friends sending quotes, sharing it, versus it
like maybe it's the best time because people just buy it, but they never read it. What would you prefer?
It just having the title of best seller or it being like, an actual piece of people's ally? That's something
that I want, you know what I mean? And also for yourself, right? Like, I we haven't this book is not out
yet. My book is actually not out yet. But I look at it with such pride. Like it is my genuinely my baby like
I've read it and reread it and read it and reread it and I will share it with people that obviously in my
circle they can. And I'm so proud of it now. Now what happens next, once it's out is so out of my control
that I haven't even I haven't even thought about, okay, where what's going to happen to it once it's out
because whether or not it does well or not, I still wrote that thing. That's still one year of my time of my
thoughts of my life in there. And I'm still so proud of it. Hence, the book launch party is happening two
days after is outright because you know how the funnel works. Now imagine if I was to wait only only to
a party when it hits New York's best seller, right? And then imagine it never does. Yeah. And then you
say what? So I was sitting there, like, what did I do? Like, I still came out, I still have hair. And it's still
helpful for the few people that read it. And I didn't deserve a party because it didn't hit certain numbers
like but also I get it, I get it. You can't just be like, as long as it's out there and hard because it's still also
business still. Also, there are a number of people involved in this and people who you know, I get it, you
also need to be realistic. I think I also avoid too much of that conversation. Too much like I need to find
a better balance. And it's one of my goals for 2022 is to kind of be more businesses see business
minded and less detached from it. Because I think I've been so put off from it for so long. I just don't
know why I think it's, I think it's the reasons of why I began the whole channel, right? Like to not think of
it as like, it's a brand or all those words made me so uncomfortable. And I'm like, why I need to tap into
that look into that for so long as it is so good. Like, I just don't care about it. Yeah, so great. But no,
actually like, that is not what the version of your parliament that you're trying to build is about. You want
your young girls to be financially literate. You want them to be as knowledgeable about what's
happening with their mortgage, as their husbands are like their equals in this you want them to be in the
labour market like you don't you're not just trying to see empowerment and education in every aspect.
So for me to shy away from the business aspect, when it's happening. It's not as though I'm at home
thinking about starting a time like I got to hit this many numbers. We've got to make this much money.
It's already happening. So why am I avoiding it? That's something I've got to like battle with myself. So I
can't blame you for thinking about the New York Times bestseller. But also, I wouldn't want you to be
lost in that in lose the fact that you've just written a book. Like don't lose this chasing just this because
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imagine I'm not saying it's gonna happen. But imagine that never happens. Does that mean you never
celebrate your book?
Ali Abdaal 1:19:56
No, exactly. Yeah, that's like that, that kind of difference between those have different goals like book
I'm proud of versus book that does well, on the stats, basically, I think that that difference is my
philosophy on goal setting, which is that the write a book I'm proud of, to me feels like a much more
motivating goal. When I sit down and think, Okay, I'm going to try and write, but I'm proud of, it feels
good. As like a goal to shoot for.
Vee Kativhu 1:20:19
Do you think the two are not compatible or something? Like, are you thinking, if you wrote a book that
you are completely part of like you put everything into it? That it might not be a great book? Or are you
like, should we write for the New York Times bestseller? And that might be a book you're not proud of?
Like, do you think the two can exist together.
Ali Abdaal 1:20:34
I think they can exist together. And I would love for them to exist together. But I just sort of think of it as
like, whenever the goal shifts to, it's like, for example, if I make a video, and my mindset during the
video is, I really want this to be the best video I can make. Versus I really wanted to hit a million views.
It's like it might actually be the same video at the end of the day. But the way I've approached it, when
I'm thinking about my own authenticity, and making video I'm proud of is so different to the way I
approach it trying to get a viral video.
Vee Kativhu 1:21:02
Well, I think in my personal opinion, if you are to make a book you're proud of, because you have to
think it's not just by luck. And because you're really good at numbers that you know how to make your
channel grow. People also are buying into your personality, they like the way that you look at life, like
you are like quite a unique person, I think and like just the way that you do things and everything. And
it's quite like captivating, right? So. So I can't see how you simply focusing on writing a book that you
are proud of how you don't see that that automatically follows with the best seller. Because to me, you
doing it your way, your complete authentic way just because of how you think and look at the way
you're doing YouTube, right? You're setting the pace and like you're setting that bar. So imagine you
actually just do the book the way you want and forget that the algorithms of best sellers and whatever it
may be, because yeah, it might have worked in the past. But what if you're on the cusp of a new way,
and then you're always gonna be what we will follow. So I think you trusting your instinct and doing it
your way, to me is an automatic new archetype.
Ali Abdaal 1:22:10
Yeah, no, I think hopefully, one will lead to the other.
Vee Kativhu 1:22:18
Because if you went the other way around, yeah. I don't see how that would go. That would go well,
because you might study like, okay, what are the 10 latest bestsellers that have? What was the same
and include that? And it's like reverse engineering sucking the life out of it? Yeah. And I think those
moments that you're going to be writing to the morning or whatever, where you just can't put the laptop
down and turn your phone off Chinese takeaway, and you're just like, I think that's gonna be like, your
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
best chapters. You know what I mean? Yeah, so it's across. Yeah. But it's a good question, though.
Which, which way? For me, I think we all know which way to go. I have not looked at anything like, I did
not study my market. And I don't know if that's a good thing. I'm not sure if I'm proud of that. Because I
also think that success is when preparation meets opportunity. Right? So Hmm. Did I prepare the best?
I don't know. Because I really did not look into anything. It was just, I'm writing from my heart. Yeah. And
I hope that this resonates with someone. And let's see what happens. So maybe next book, if I do an
expert, I might try that approach. And I could produce something even better or worse. Who knows? It's
just different ways to approach it.
Ali Abdaal 1:23:36
Yeah. What are what are empowered life goals?
Vee Kativhu 1:23:42
So empowered life goals are essentially long term goals that you might have, but they are driven, and
are embedded in everything that makes you feel whole, everything that makes you feel like you're living
your true, authentic life, and you're truly empowered. And by that, I mean, everything you're doing is
your choice, or the majority of it, some things we really can't control. But the majority of it is your choice,
you wake up feeling like okay, I'm designing my life the way that I want it to be. And it's something that
is it's within your control it all sorts of self self beliefs of confidence that it's all centred around you. So
empowered life goals would be things that you don't you're not making decisions based on what you
think is the right thing to do, like, Oh, I've got to go be a banker, or I've got to go get married at 25.
Because that's what like my grandma says, right? Is actually I want to travel and I want to have kids
when I'm 35. Yeah. And that's one of my goals. Like I do want a family but don't rush me. I want my
family at this stage. Or actually, I want to go and study law after medicine, right? Like you want to feel
completely and totally. You I just don't like one life on Earth. And you're gonna have that time. Sure. For
other people, and you're living for other people, you're trying to please other people. And it's like, we
don't know what happens after that's a whole different podcast and a whole different conversation,
right? But let's just pretend for a second that we don't know. So let us cut that thought off for now. And
this is it. This is all we've got. It's like, there's no do over and you spent it worrying. I always think, man,
if we could calculate the amount of hours we've spent worrying, and doubting ourselves and our want, if
we've got that time back, I wonder what we could do different. I just wonder. But yeah, empowered life
goals are just things that are entirely driven by your passion, purpose, the things that you like, the
things that you enjoy, and they don't always have to be purposeful. I don't, every not everything that I
do has a purpose to it. Okay, there are some things that I just do, because I just like to do it. This is just
what I just enjoy. And that's okay. doesn't always have to have like a bigger outcome or a bigger goal to
it. It can just be Oh, I'm doing this because I like it. Like I'm gonna take Zumba classes, there's nothing
else to apart from, I just want to go and dance Zumba. So empowered life goals are things entirely
centred around the things that make you happy? And yes, yes, life is not always happy. Sometimes you
have to encounter hardship in different things. But if you have the choice, like I keep saying, why would
you choose the bad things? Why?
Ali Abdaal 1:26:30
What's your pyramid method?
Vee Kativhu 1:26:32
Oh, my God. So the pyramid method. And I don't know where I got this wrong. I don't know if I read
about it. Or if I made it up, I'm not sure. But what I do when I'm looking at setting my goals, I visualise it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
as a pyramid, right? So I'm looking at it as what is the thing at the top for this season for this moment in
my life, okay, I want to write a book. That's what I want to do. I really want to write a book and I want it
to be out when I graduate. I don't know why this is what I wanted. And that's okay. Sometimes there's
no reasoning to it. But it makes sense to you want it to come out, by the time I've graduated in 2021.
Cool. So you put that at the top of your pyramid, like it's in the top square, that everything else under
that pyramid, that things are structures that make that pyramid stand up tall, proud, and it's the biggest
and the baddest, and the greatest. That's what's gonna matter. Now, these are your systems. So what
you slot in here is what's gonna uplift that goal. So okay, cool. So if we want to do in a year, we want to
book in that book has to be 60,000 words, it means that we need to write 30,000 in the next six months,
so then the two slots underneath are going to be 30,000 30,000, then either side is going to be how am
I going to make sure I get to that 30,000. Okay, so it might mean that we need to make sure that this
month we're writing 1000 words. And then if it's 1000 words, a k means that today, I need to do five
hours of work, whatever it may be. So it's a way of like breaking down things to bite size, intricate
chunks that you can see from a day to day perspective, because sometimes I think when people set
goals, so far away over there, that it feels unattainable, and it feels so out of reach. And then before you
know it, the years end of there's no book because it's so overwhelming that you just never start. So I
like to break it down to this week. What does this week look like? And that's the bottom of your pyramid,
that's right here. What does this week look like in order to make sure in one year, that goal is reached.
And that is how I approach everything almost, I break it down to and also sometimes your goals might
not be some feasible for you not because you can't do it, or because you're not good enough for it. It's
actually just nearly impossible considering what else you're doing. Like you just don't have the physical
time and breaking it down in that way. You can actually see, ah, it's 500 words a day. That takes three
hours. Actually, I'm at school that time, I can't do it right now. So maybe you'll extend your goal to write
the book in two years time, and now it's more manageable. So the permit system for me is looking at
the structures that I'm using and making sure that the systems can accommodate the goal. Because
you can't have a goal that system lists. It doesn't work.
Ali Abdaal 1:29:08
No, that's true. I mean, okay, so one of the one of the things that stops people that makes people shy
away from goals is fear of failure, and fear of rejection. And you have all you have a whole thing about
this. Oh, what's your what's your thing about rejection?
Vee Kativhu 1:29:26
Oh, you know how they have the love languages? Yeah. I'd love to add one for me about rejection and
failure. I'm like, it's your love language. Oh, me that cook to me. Listen, failure is another chance to try
again. And I really mean this. When I say failure is like my fuel. Like I I thrive from it because it's like,
Okay, now, I've just gained insight into something. And I have this pebble analogy that I heard it was so
good, and I just kept it. It's like being on a pebble and it's sort of like a pebble beach of pebbles. I don't
know what else to say pebbles and If someone tells you there is 100 million, that's obviously gonna
change your life $100 million, check under one of these pebbles go. The first thing you do is turn over
the pebble you're standing next to an ice not they're not gonna go home. No, you're not, there's 100
million on this beach, that's yours, you're going to keep turning squabbles over and as you're turning
bubbles over, guess what you're gaining information about where that money isn't. Okay? And you're
gonna say, okay, that section over there, I've checked it out somewhere over there. And you're just
going to now put a little method in place, I've looked at the evidence until you find the hole not gonna
give up. So yeah, that's just, that's just what I think.
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Ali Abdaal 1:30:40
Yeah, the chapter is about this idea that rejection is redirection. What do you mean by that?
Vee Kativhu 1:30:46
So rejection is redirection. So when you get rejected from something, you're gonna, you're gonna still
live like that is the reality, you're not going to die from this, okay? When you're rejected from university,
when you're rejected from your job, you're still going to be here. So now that we know you're going to
be here, there needs to be a next step. And the next step is redirection, like, you're not going to stand
still, you're not that door has closed, it is inevitable, another one has to open. Now what that other one
is going to be, that is going to be how we based on how we approach it, how we frame it, we're going to
enter this as a new opportunity. So it's a redirection, it's like something greater is coming. And why do I
say it's greater, because you just, he just gone through an experience has made you stronger is giving
you information, if you're a different person now, like when your next moment comes, is redirection, like,
there is nothing else to say, apart from you, we're going to go this way, you can't now so you're going
that way, you're gonna make the best of it. Because that's what happens, you got to live in the moment
of what you're at and what you're doing. And if you get rejected from it, live in a moment of that and give
that a full chance. So that's what I mean failures are the chance to try again, is you turning that pebble
over the money is not there. Now you know where else to try. Now you know where it's not. And it's as
important to know what you don't want to do, or where you shouldn't be as it's not what you want to do.
And I look at it like this, right? Your ultimate happiness is like here, whatever that means is here. And
every time that something doesn't quite go the right way, or you get rejected a fee or whatever, you're
just like ticking off, you're just like literally getting closer and closer and closer and closer to finding
yourself to finding what you like knowing your boundaries, knowing what excites you all this stuff, you're
just getting closer and closer. And for me, that's why I celebrate leaving that job. Because now I know
what I don't want to do is definitely that one. Now let's let's go again.
Ali Abdaal 1:32:46
That's great stuff. So one of the things that we teach on when I teach like people how to start a
YouTube channels and stuff is the idea of having an accountability, buddy. And I saw that you talk a lot
about accountability partners as well, what what's the what is an accountability partner for you? And
what's their What's the benefit?
Vee Kativhu 1:33:05
Oh you really read this book. Okay, accountability partners. Well, I call them like your empowerment
circle. So it can release partners is how everyone knows it. But in our world, call it Parliament circle. So
it's having people there that are invested in you. They're invested in you what you're doing, seeing your
growth and seeing you succeed. So that when you might be doubting yourself or having that moment
where imposter syndrome creeps in, there is another version of you, someone who's holding your ideas
who give like a let's not be drastic and delete the channel. Because today, you didn't get the views you
wanted, like, give it a week. Let's draw it, come back to drawing board and go again. So having an
empowerment circle or an accountability partner is someone who can hold you accountable to what you
said you want for yourself until you obviously are like seriously, my goals have changed as to what I
wanted more fine. But if it is what you want, and you're having a bad moment, I'm telling you now you
need people around you who are invested in that. Because if you don't, you can talk yourself out of
anything. I think we've all seen it, you know, you got to wake up for the gym at 6am you will talk yourself
out of it and you will stay in bed, you know you need to walk past that shop and just go home and cook
you buy that food like we all have those moments. And having an accountability partner is kind of like
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it's kind of like having a parent there before you spend your money every time and having to explain
why you're doing this Amazon order. You know, like it just gives you that other layer of yeah, let me
think twice before I before I do that thing that might be not in my best interest. So for me having my
empowerment circle is is being able to go to them and say I really want to write a book but I'm feeling
nervous about it. And then they're like, you want to write a book call it this like let's let's start fleshing it
out and they give me hi They hyped me up and helped me see that vision bigger. And also when I'm
like, Guys, I can't do it. I want to quit. And there were moments I wanted to quit my channel, there were
moments that I was like, No, I'm done. And my sister was like, no, no. Remember why we started this?
Did it and then like, they help you, like, come back to that moment. And I'm so grateful for that. Because
so when did you want to quit? Oh, my gosh, how much time do you how I wanted to quit when I was at
uni? Because people were sometimes not kind. Okay, that is an aspect of it, like you would assume
because this is, you know, something that's so student driven. And so mission driven, thought everyone
would love to support it. And that's not always the case. People didn't like what I was doing. And I
wouldn't I don't want to use the word bullied, because it's so it's such a big and loaded term. But people
were unkind. And I was just like, Man, I just want to be a student. Like, I just want to be at uni and be
able to go to a party and be like, Hi on V and not someone be like, Yo, V. And already they've got a
judgement or already they there. There's some motive behind that you don't know or whatever. Like I
was starting to find that difficult. And there was a time I'd walk past like, my college and walk past a
room and I can hear them watching my video. Like loving Oh, yeah. And I was like, this is the beginning
though. Yeah, to think I started at uni. So they watched it go from zero to where it is now. So like, I got
there. And I was doing it in like Cata respect, because what I do, I was at the beginning where it's still
it's still like if you say something that might trigger me, I could stop is still the beginning stages. I almost
stopped. Wow. almost stopped.
Ali Abdaal 1:36:37
What kept you going?
Vee Kativhu 1:36:38
My sister and my mum, they absolutely were not going to have that. Yeah. And if I'd given a good
reason of I no longer enjoy it. It's causing me to feel unhappy. They were like, You know what, fair
enough like the job, right? You got to go it's time we support it. But because of other people, you still
like what you're doing, but because they've lost it you and everybody was so sorry. And that's what got
me. I was like keep the same energy. Keep the same energy. If you're gonna be mad about it, be mad
about it forever. Don't be mad about it. And I'll be the first in the comments go V is this is if you don't
know what happened last semester. It was a whole situation. I hate that. I really hate that. Like you can
see someone is enjoying what they're doing. And they're doing it for a reason. For a reason, that is
bigger than all of us like we were in the end. That's what keeps getting me there in the videos. In the
beginning. They were helpful talking to the students, guys. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Now you don't like it?
questionable?
Ali Abdaal 1:37:47
Do you get much hate these days?
Vee Kativhu 1:37:51
Not to my face. I don't know what happens behind the scenes. And I definitely don't read any of these
gossip, gooey things or tattle things. I don't know. I don't read them. I don't read them at all. I found out
what they were when we had the sleepover Oxbridge with all the study tube law. And then people
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asked like, what is that like, what you want about cat or does that mean? I went on there? And I said,
Yeah, my sister was like, he was like, You better stop. Because? Oh, yeah. That's interesting. I would
like refresh it. For a week. I was in this tattle.
Ali Abdaal 1:38:33
I was in it for about a week as well before I realised.
Vee Kativhu 1:38:35
Yeah. And the thing is, once you start hearing it, you're like, I need to hear more. And then and then I
saw myself go my tongue was like, Hey, guys. I wasn't Hey, guys. It was someone who was too loud. I
thought, wait a minute. I think I put it in the book. Like if you're gonna change yourself based on what
was say? Someone's gonna say, Stevie, you're too loud. Tomorrow, they'll say You're talking too quiet.
Someone's gonna say voice too squeaky before you know you're on your channel. Hey, guys, we're
gonna like you don't even know what to do anymore. No, can't do that. Like, yeah. You just have to give
yourself a chance in this world man.
Ali Abdaal 1:39:11
Yeah retweet. One thing I wanted to touch on was, you're like, surprisingly open about talking about
money. Yeah, that's quite. Yeah. Why is that shocking? Because most people aren't. And it's still like a
taboo thing. Yeah. Like I'm very open to talking about money and people find find that weird. Yeah, it
was a bit like baffled as to why it's so weird. Like, why it's like a heavy thing talking about money.
Vee Kativhu 1:39:36
Okay, so here's my thing about money, right? When when everything on YouTube started happening,
like I was opening my friends and family just because it was like, oh my god, this is crazy. We've just
gone from McDonald's money, right? I was making like four pounds 95 An hour or something like this.
And then now you're like, because there's a few 100 pounds in my account. And that's shocking. Like
oh, like what so I was just open to talking about money with my friends and family for the beginning
because we just could not believe our eyes like what for one minute, they asked me for giving you How
much for one minute, that would have been how many shifts at work for us. So it was just blowing our
minds. Then I got into the intimate and I don't know it was this weird. Like, you couldn't really talk about
it because it felt like rude. Like it felt like and I just didn't get it. Because obviously, I always knew I not
my mom makes all my sister makes my friends. Like, it's not a secret. If you work for KFC with me, I
know what we're on like, whereas in this world, it is such it's so in the book I was so I really wanted to
talk about it. But I also knew, like there were still these like social limitations, like I couldn't be like, so
today, this is how much I made this hour. So okay, I can put some distance between it like I can say,
when you began in the first two years, yeah, this is how it was going. And that's because obviously,
that's not where we're at now. But I can say this is how it was going. And this is the the numbers which I
still think a crazy, right? I went from something like there was a brand that I was working with. And when
I fired management, they were like, Yeah, we like we've stretched our budgets and like we can give you
200 For like a minute's work and you know, you know, I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. And I was
so over the moon that I had management. Yeah. And like three months later, the same brand. The
money was in the 1000s. And I was like, I haven't grown that much. And nothing has really changed
here. And that made me angry. Because it was like so once again, a lack of knowledge and knowing
means that you're just gonna get ripped off all the time. Yeah. When like, why is me having
management means now you can pay times 10. Like, how does that make any sense? So, in the book I
discuss like AdSense fees, things like that in the first year of YouTube, because I feel that okay, it's fair
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enough is far away. Yeah, yeah, it's far enough away. But also, it's still mind boggling. Like, even when I
when my friends because obviously I mean now with friends and family, everybody. It's just like, okay,
they know they get it. So now they still have those prices in their mind as well, because I just don't talk
to him about it anymore. Now, because it's, I don't know, there's just no point anymore. We get it. They
know we're amazed by is done, whatever. So when they made that they're still like, whoa. So I was
okay, this is still something good to share, because it still shows you how drastic jump is. And I just
couldn't believe it. Like I'm a university student making 1000s from being on the internet.
Ali Abdaal 1:42:42
So what were the figures from years one and two?
Vee Kativhu 1:42:45
Years one and two, I think there was a video that I did on YouTube, and it got like 2000 pounds or
something in that month, because I think it just did really well. And the brand management's were
getting the management deals for like 4000 here 5000 there.
Ali Abdaal 1:43:01
In the first year? Serious?
Vee Kativhu 1:43:04
Because in that first year, that's when I was blowing up. Yeah, right. So they managed me when I had
like, I think they came to and had 15,000 subscribers or something. And then within four months, we
were like, we hit 2030 4050. So in that time, I guess when they're pitching, they're like, she's gaining
10,000 subscribers every week, you better do it now. Well, you know what I mean? So they were
getting amazing deals. And I was like, What in the world? I literally went from my McDonald's paycheck
to this. There was no there was no gradual to it whatsoever. And that blew my mind.
Ali Abdaal 1:43:41
What's that like? How does that change? Change your perspective, if at all?
Vee Kativhu 1:43:47
The good thing is like I keep saying the friends and family at home, nothing has really changed in their
world. So it's still the same so we still have those conversations and I still do budgeting talks to them
and like I can't be like well it's only 100 It's like no it's not only 100 That was how many hours work for
you. I still need to be in tune with that but also I can't be on the internet guys I got to get a Pot Noodle
today because I don't have to let's be realistic here like I hate when people pretend to win you know
you know you're in a better situation like you You don't need to talk about Pot Noodle right now you
know if you really wanted to give it a go you could order it and that wouldn't do anything for you. So I it
was tricky, but my audience are amazing. Like whenever especially Disney right like I work with Disney
a lot which I mean we know Disney's got deep pockets right in my my audience know that and
whenever I post like a Disney and they do the best like you could get 500 comments.
Ali Abdaal 1:44:46
Because they're like supporting like oh my god well done.
Vee Kativhu 1:44:49
Yeah, they're like get more. Yeah, they love it.
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Ali Abdaal 1:44:53
That's pretty unusual.
Vee Kativhu 1:44:57
No they're like you deserve this, absolutely you've been doing this been working hard. And I think they
know the journey as well. Yeah, this is new, the first of my family to be seen this kind of money, right? I
used to think my mom was like, I swear to God, like Mom, give me 20 pounds. And now I'm like, Oh my
gosh, I could make my mom's salary in under a few months. Like, that blows my mind. Right. So now I
know, there was a responsibility that comes with that, like, I will always help my family when I can. And
they don't they don't. I don't know what the right word is. They don't use the word. It's not views.
Expected? No, like, they don't exploit that they don't like they wouldn't be like, Okay, now that you're
making some money, you got to take care of everything. No, like, it takes a lot for me to like, Mom, let
me take you winter coat shopping. She was still black. So just go to Primark and like, let's find one in
the cellar like Mommy, whichever one. It's like, I've got this or if I say to meet me in town, when I'm
getting home, surely she's like, I'm gonna get the bus. I'm like, can I just order an Uber? But Uber is
expensive, 20 pounds on mom. It's okay. Like she's still in that space. So I don't think that ever come a
time where I could lose touch of it. Because it's always around me. But yeah, I am lucky that my
audience are so supportive of it. They don't skip ads. They they love when a video is sponsored, like
they do well, my videos, like I've never had an issue with branded content, or my audiences been like,
what are you doing? And because everything is all, like 16th is amazing. My management, they never
bring me anything that's not aligned. So if I do a deal is always something where my audience get
something out of it. And they obviously never have to pay for anything that I'm doing. So for them, it's
like, Wait, she's got a brand deal. And all we have to view it. And like it like that's a literal have to do.
And we still get to consume her content for free online, we still get to come to events for free, like all the
empowered, empowered will never be monetized or charged thing. So for them, it's like to comment,
and to be honest with the that is logical, like I don't get when people get hate. But as I guess maybe if
the audience were like, you've you've grown our community, and now you've just stopped what we've
been doing just for you to be doing as in just use the numbers for that. Like, maybe that's where they
get annoyed. Whereas for me, I'm like, if this ad is not if it's not feeding in, does that make sense? For
example, I'll work with people like the civil service. If the ad, we will have a link that people can go and
apply for, like, help them get onto the fast stream, for example. So I've definitely made money from
work with the civil service, but my audience have been exposed to this thing. And they also get a link
like, nothing is ever unaligned in alliance, whatever the word is.
Ali Abdaal 1:47:55
Yeah. Do you find that as you make more money, your goalposts for what a good amount of money is
shift?
Vee Kativhu 1:48:00
No. Because it's not for heavy enough for what I did. Yeah, it's fine. Okay, you know what I mean?
Ali Abdaal 1:48:08
So you're thinking in terms of like, oh, you know, the channels making x amount of revenue this year,
and kind of next year, kind of be cool to like, 2x 3x, that kind of stuff.
Vee Kativhu 1:48:16
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I feel like by now, you know, yeah. There is no more number one, I don't have a team, right. Like, I
mean, I think what you're doing here is so cool. I think I texted you about it like I in 2022, we'll definitely
be trying to start thinking that way. But currently, it is just me, yes, my management is there. But their
job is solely to go and get brand deals. And my job is to keep the channel alive. So that Brando's can
go on to something, right? But there's no team that like, let's analyse stats, or these are our financial
goals, because there are people to feed right. Like you have a team people who are relying on making
a salary here. So like you need this is a whole operation. Whereas this is just me, just me and my ideas
is no one else. So there's never been a deep dive into. This is the channel. No, it's like, Oh, yeah.
That's pretty because my rent is paid up front, I pay my rent up front. Yeah. My rent is paid upfront.
Ali Abdaal 1:49:15
What do you do with the cash? Do you invest in stuff?
Vee Kativhu 1:49:20
Okay, so you see my friend, he's really great for this. He was like, V, you can't just have money sitting in
the bank, like you need to do something with it. So I'll go onto this thing called estimator change the
name to circa 500 or something. Do you know it used to be called tick, ti, kr? Okay, something like this.
It's really great. It's all about like being able to invest into causes that help the world. So it's really nice.
So you can choose which kind of investing you want to do. And I've chosen people and environment.
So every month takes a few 100 out and it goes in there and it's nice, but that's as far as I'm going and
most of my investment is my education, right like Harvard, I paid for myself. So, but that was really cool
that I could even do that. Like, it was like, Okay, we didn't get the scholarship, I guess. Yeah, we got to
go Withdraw 27 grand and just pay for this upfront. And that's a really nice thing to do in like the PhD.
I'm not super stressed about oh my god gotta get a scholarship if I get it great for doing I guess we're
gonna pay for Disney Disney. So yeah, for me now it's, it's my investments, I guess, are in things like,
my education. The apartment, which is, is it's a really nice apartment. It's really great. But for me, I'm
like, why I can't live there. So why would I not. So things like experiences travelling, but also this app,
investing in there. And as 2022 comes financial literacy is what's on my agenda. And now sitting down
and talking with my accountant, talking, maybe getting a financial advisor and just chatting about, okay,
you can't just keep pretending that this is just la dee da, it's just happening by chance, like it's
happening. Let's track let's invest, let's, let's be more financially wise here, and also start to be business
minded, as I shift into, like, my adulthood, I suppose. So.
Ali Abdaal 1:51:15
Yeah, I think that'd be a really interesting strand of content on your channel. Like, yeah, documenting
the journey of you learning about financial literacy.
Vee Kativhu 1:51:22
Exactly and it's gonna be from scratch, and it's just gonna be a second, just a genuine journey of okay,
guys, I know how to accept that. As much as I love what I'm doing. It also comes with this side of things
that brands are gonna want to work with you because they also love what you stand for. And, and my
audience understands. And I love that because it'd be so hard for them to be like, but you're supposed
to be doing this because you care. So how is this an ad in the middle? is like, does that take away from
the fact that the content that you still got after that one minute was still helpful? No. And they really,
really get that, and I am lucky, really lucky, because I know it can be different. Audiences can be quite
touchy about that, but not mine.
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Ali Abdaal 1:52:10
I have a few kind of rapid fire questions if that's alright.
Vee Kativhu 1:52:12
Oh, that's nerve racking.
Ali Abdaal 1:52:14
I mean, the questions are up at the answers don't have to be. So what what advice would you give to
your younger self?
Vee Kativhu 1:52:24
The question I asked everybody, what advice would I give to my younger self. I always say this pattern
if it's so true, because whatever thing that happened, I happen, I don't know. But my younger self either
told myself to stop being more audacious sooner. No, what do you mean? Like, right now, there's no
goal that's out of my reach? There's nothing that I would say, maybe don't maybe don't think about that,
like everyone do. PhD? Like don't think Stanford? No, it's not gonna work. Or you want to do a speech,
don't think the UN like, there's nothing that is too big. And I feel like there was a time when I was
younger, even though my mum was supportive, like I keep saying, she said, lead, and I'll follow. So if I
didn't choose something that was really, really high, then it wasn't going to happen. Right. So I wish that
I had started to see myself as I do now, a lot younger, especially when I was trying to like unlearn all of
this. You're an orphan stuff, which doesn't even make sense. Like number one. I don't know why the
robin cutter does that. But if you lose a father, then you are an orphan. But it's like, that doesn't make
sense. Because just to have a mom, but it becomes with all that like gender inequality, stuff that they
don't view the mom is significant enough that your status changes based on your father. So I wish that
I'd unlearned that what I'd inherited from that orphan like that's what you are, and they treat you that
way and being so nervous and like never really like speaking up. I wish I'd learned that sooner.
Ali Abdaal 1:53:55
That's life.
Vee Kativhu 1:53:55
Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:53:56
Who has had the biggest influence in your career. Would you say?
Vee Kativhu 1:53:59
Gosh, I don't know, I guess I would say, really, really powerful women like Oprah Winfrey, or Michelle
Obama's, you know, people like that, I think really inspire me because they've made names for
themselves based on themselves. And even though someone could argue that Michelle, her husband
was the president. It's like, yeah, he was but have you ever heard her refer to as Barack Obama's wife?
Like you don't really ever hear? Exactly. It's Michelle Obama. And it's Oh, yeah, she's married to Barak,
but it's never Oh, he's life. And I really like that I like when women obviously Malala like, I mean, it you
know, she's just amazing. I think watching her as my friend is, is like, I get a front row seat at the
World's Greatest Show. She just navigate everything with such grace. She's so powerful and assertive,
and does it in such a way that so are just so good. should never have to raise her voice never have to
do all these traditionally. traditionally masculine things that a lot of women tend to have to do to be seen
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or heard, she's heard, and you will listen like that room will get quiet. And I love that. So I think in my
career, people like that have definitely influenced me a lot to just be my authentic self and exist within
my story, and find power in that and not feel like, Oh, we're gonna have to go and make a gimmick out
of this or have to go and jazz it up for it to be special. It's like, No, this is this is what happened. I can't, I
can't go back and undo it. So what I'm gonna do is celebrate it, and you didn't hear about it. of it.
Ali Abdaal 1:55:43
What's one tip for someone looking for success?
Vee Kativhu 1:55:47
Oh, gosh, I guess I would say, understand what success looks like for you. Because the moment that
you think it's this formula, or it looks this way, you're never going to reach it, because you're aspiring for
someone else's version of something. And even when you get there, you will find that you will be happy.
Okay, the goalposts will keep on moving, and keep on changing. So the number one thing that has to
be at the forefront of everything is what is your version of success, your vision of success, could be
going to school, finishing uni, and then getting married, having children and then being a stay at home
mom, that could be your absolute aspiration. And then that's what you want to do. And that's okay. And
when you've reached you can be like, Oh God, my speech, children, and I feel successful. And for
someone else, that could be their worst nightmare that could be like, I want to travel the world, build an
empire, BSC O, or the company, whatever it may be. And that's their version. So figuring out what it is
for you is a first step. And then you go out and you start to do it, you start to ask for help get on
LinkedIn, if you have to type in in the job title you're aspiring to do ask that person for a coffee or go to
your teacher. Do you know anybody away you just now you start the grafting but the first step is figuring
out what makes you happy. Not what you think is supposed to make you happy? Because that's a
whole different thing. But what actually makes you happy if sometimes, you could think that's what it is.
Get them it's not Yeah, it's okay. We pivot we manoeuvre we adjust, we keep going,
Ali Abdaal 1:57:23
What's your definition of success?
Vee Kativhu 1:57:26
My definition of success is for me to be working with other changemakers in a space where I feel
valued, seen, where my ideas and my opinions are contributing to something. And we are working on
this mission for girls education. That is, that is just Oh, my child was in I was in Zimbabwe, and I was
talking to girls in the orphanages or visiting the schools. And they were just telling me like, I just I just
want to learn, like, I don't want to get married. And I know that's what's coming next month. Like just
seeing it live in the flesh and knowing that could have been me. I think that is that is what drives me the
most is knowing if my mom hadn't been as brave and strong as she is. Marlene to leave the UK to
come here to do what she did to set up and get us over here. I would have been the girls I'm talking to.
So for me, it's like Nah, I just I want to work in that infamy success would be seeing that number
decrease 100 and 30 million girls out of school 100 30 million that is massive. So being able to know
that that number is decreasing. And that we're creating generational change. Yeah, that would be
successful for me.
Ali Abdaal 1:58:50
What does the first and last hour of your day normally look like?
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Vee Kativhu 1:58:53
Oh my gosh, the first hour. That's in the morning. That's my favourite time. Honestly. I love it. I play
music have a really nice happy music you know like Soul Sister Hazel system, time the stuff I just be
singing I'm sure my neighbours must think what is going on in there. I'll wake up shower, have music
blasting the whole time. Drink some water, have porridge, do my hair, do some makeup, put on a cute
outfit and then go to my office in the next room. And then I even laptop and I emails admin so is my first
thing respond to the things that need urgent response. Then after that it's tackle the rest of the day. As it
comes from the last hour. The last hour I always to be honest, and talking to my sister like my mom and
my sister. We love a good group chat call. We have a chat about how it looked. I might read and then
bed. That is it or sometimes I'll watch something Which is always dangerous because if I watch
something I'm just gonna like fall asleep. It's gonna keep playing I don't sleep great. So I tried to keep
my phone away from me because that I think I learned that from you where you had your food like
charging somewhere else. Yeah actual alarm clock. Yeah, yeah. Which is crazy cuz I'm like man in love
is like, Oh, by an alarm clock. But I watched one of your videos and I was like, let me try this and I slept
so gross. Like, where my phone is away from asleep so well. But yeah, that's what the last hour could
be a bad hour and I'm watching something and I fall asleep to that or suits the family read a bo o k
thing get to bed.
Ali Abdaal 2:00:40
What physical item something that's like maybe less than 100 pounds do you think is like really
underrated or the what physical item couldn't you live without?
Vee Kativhu 2:00:48
I think my tripod. Okay. But that's because of the line of work that I'm in. Right. My tripod enables me to
have freedom. Like I can just go anywhere. And I can do it because I like to capture what I'm doing. I
really enjoyed that. Some people find that strange to like, live your life documenting it, but I like it. And I
also love doing it. So my tripod means that I don't have to have people with me all the time. Yeah, I just
have the clicker, the tripod, I can put my camera on there on my phone on there. It's the same height as
me. I can twist it, turn it or go on holiday on my own my entire photography's myself, like all that kind of
stuff. Whereas before, if I didn't have it and always have to think someone come out for dinner with me,
someone comes to shopping with me because I can twirl it. I don't have embarrassment. I set up the
tripod I do my twirling, I do what I want to do, like, nothing really fazes me. So my tripod gives me that
freedom to be able to do those kinds of things without having to think companionship all the time. So
yeah, enjoy being alone. And it allows me to be alone.
Ali Abdaal 2:01:53
Does that like extend as high as you?
Vee Kativhu 2:01:54
Yeah, not not not exactly. But it's like a high level. And I have a few of them at home. Sometimes it's
annoying to like, twist and turn. So I have that one for the camera, my phone. And I buy everyone this
tripod. Yeah, like it's a gift that I give everybody and they love it. Like they're always like, that's the best
thing you gave me. Literally, I need to check out that tripod. Oh, yeah, it's really it's one of the things.
And I've had this one for like, Nah, I think two years maybe and it hasn't never broken. So my tripod,
and that cost like 20 pounds. But it allows me to be able to do things on my own. Mm hmm.
Ali Abdaal 2:02:30
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What book other than yours would you recommend to everyone?
Vee Kativhu 2:02:33
That is a really good question. Now, are we talking about recommendable because it's an enjoyable
read or because helpful?
Ali Abdaal 2:02:40
Let's go both one for each.
Vee Kativhu 2:02:43
So something that I think is really, really helpful is a book by a person called We Should All Be
Feminists. I want to say, controversial right now. But like the book is The Great Chimamanda Ngozi
Adichie people a bit annoyed at her right now. But that's a different story. But the book is really great.
We Should All Be Feminists. Yes, we should all be feminist. It's tiny, like this little book with that one.
And the feminist manifesto booth by her tiny little books, you could read it in two hours. Oh, so good.
Talks about she's writing a letter to a friend about how to raise her baby girl. And she's like, please don't
put these expectations. Please don't use this language, please just let them and it just talks about why
feminism is important. And how it's not something that's like a radical that everyone just thinks about in
this not this bad thing. He just literally asking me to equity and equality. Right. Like it's it's just great. So
that one for being helpful for I think everybody should read it. And then the book they enjoyed.
Educated Oh, yeah, by Tara. I think that book had me on edge. There are some moments because like,
that really happened. The skin was peeling. And I'm like, Oh, the moments I'm like, No, I'm crying. Like
it has me all the fields. And it's Michelle Obama's favourite book too.
Ali Abdaal 2:04:10
I mean, the next question, oh, well, actually, I'm curious. If you if you lost everything. So all the money's
gone, all the flowers are gone, etc. How would you? How would you rebuild?
Vee Kativhu 2:04:23
Would I rebuild? Would you rebuild? Yeah, I guess that's the first question. That's the question.
Because I suppose if, if it's all lost, right? It means that there's another chance to try again, that's
another chance to reinvent. So if I had to rebuild it, I guess I guess you would just relaunch your
channel and like, say, guys, we're back and then try again. But I think maybe I would go down a new
route, like maybe I would think about instead of being on camera, maybe I'll write instead. So I'll now go
to Zimbabwe and work with combat, and then maybe write articles about what I'm seeing. Or maybe I
go down there, and I, I now, run helped run the organisation. Right, I think I'd still be making impact, but
maybe in a different way. I don't know if I would do it on the internet as necessarily. Now, it's like I'm in
the flow of things that is happening, but I don't see myself on the internet forever. I don't see it being
here for me beyond five years now. So in three years, if this PhD goes ahead, like I definitely love
documenting when I'm studying, and I love speaking to the student community. But like, once I am
done, I don't know if I don't think I would enjoy it anymore. That's the honest truth. So I see myself that
there's like a three to five maximum lifetime on this, and then I might tap out. And yeah, like, I definitely
don't see in my post study world with me. Like, I definitely don't, it's not something that I want to do. And
it's not something that I'm going to do. But yes, I've had to rebuild, I think I'd be really happy actually.
Because it's like, hello, what can you do? Shut down, what's gonna happen? Yeah. And it'll just be like
a new existence. Like, it's just a new world, like you would now live within your means. Like, if the
YouTube money stops, it's like, you just adjust, you downsize on the apartment, you move to a city
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that's cheaper, and you figure out a way of living that suits what you're doing. And now you're not on the
internet. Like, it's not even like, you have any, any, any requirements or like right now is when I leave
the office, right? Like, yes, I could technically just be at home. But like the, you know, you need to put
your lights up in the family sleeping at certain times, young Hi, guys. And there's a lot you know, I need
my own space. I need the office. And whereas when you're no longer in that world, yeah, your work is,
is over there. Like you go home just asleep. We don't need all of this what we've got right now, right?
So I just started to start a new route. To be honest.
Ali Abdaal 2:06:59
What quote or mantra do you live by?
Vee Kativhu 2:07:01
Oh, that is that is really good. There's three that already comes to mind. The top one is that you are
deserving of everything you want in the world, right? That one I believe to mice, I tell myself this every
day, because nothing is nothing. Unless I'm just not qualified for it. Like you're not going to put me in
the surgeon's chair because I'm going to someone's gonna die, I'm not gonna be able to save the life,
right? But if I were to go to medical school, and I was a qualified doctor, the, but in my field, my lane is
like, why there's nothing that is to above, if I'm human, I'm here and some other human can do it too.
So can I then the other one is definitely my rejection one, like the whole idea of rejection is redirection,
failure is another chance to try again, it means that life, it never stops, you still have a chance. Every
day you wake up, you get to to start afresh. It's never like, Oh, it's too late. You're never too old. To that
degree, four to five, okay. You can still hear you can still go in and take information, write notes, you can
go to school.
Ali Abdaal 2:08:09
Finally, journey or destination?
Vee Kativhu 2:08:11
Oh, of course, is the journey. Because it's the journey. destination is the bonus. Yeah, that is the beauty
of it. The journey is the fun part. The journey is where it's at. Cuz that is where you learn where you
grow. And where you get to create and exist. And then the destinations I got here and even when you
get to destination, you're still on the journey. And that that's the tea.
Ali Abdaal 2:08:38
Vee thank you so much. Oh my gosh, I think was the longest interview where we've ever done. We've
been talking for over two and a half hours. I want to say yeah, thank Thank you. Thank you so much.
It's been a real joy. Like, I think the the passion that you exude. It's just so infectious. It's like
experiencing it in real life is like is it's like on another level compared to like on YouTube or Instagram
stories. So I just think has been fantastic. And I've taken a lot of a lot of like, like, yeah, life life lessons
away from it. I guess you weren't really trying to be a guru as such, but like I think you're just like
accidentally just like ridiculously inspiring so I'm sure everyone who watched that listens listened will
get a lot of value from it, guys, check the book out, link in all the things.
Vee Kativhu 2:09:24
It's gonna be everywhere in stores, WH Smith Waterstones. I just hope that people who read it just find
it motivational and practically helpful. And that when you finish reading lips, a smile on your face. That's
all I want.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Ali Abdaal 2:09:53
And I can't wait to do a proper video but lots of really useful lessons that I think can be taught didn't do
a nice little video. Thanks. And, guys, thanks for listening and hit the subscribe button. Check out Vee
All links in the video description and we'll catch you later. Right that's it for this week's episode of Deep
Dive thank you so much for watching. Check out these book, it's generally very good to talk about links
to these socials and her book and all the things in the video description and the show notes. And
wherever you're watching this, please do check the link in the video description in the show notes. That
will be a link to Apple podcasts to leave a review for the podcast. If you'd like this episode, I'd love for
you to leave a review because it genuinely does help more people discover the podcast anyway. Thank
you so much for listening. Have a great day and I'll see in the next episode. Bye
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