Manufacturing Mavericks

In this episode of Manufacturing Mavericks, we're heading to Salt Lake City to talk with Steve Van Orden and Eric Van Orden —father and son leaders at Paramount Machine. Steve started the company in the family garage with a manual lathe and a bold vision. Now, Eric is helping lead the next chapter of growth with a focus on automation, people-first culture, and smart investments in technology.

Eric opens up about why his dad made him start at the bottom and how that decision shaped his leadership style. From sweeping the shop floor to now helping run a 70-person team, Eric shares his perspective on generational transitions, developing trust within the team, and what it takes to modernize without losing your core.

Together, Steve and Eric talk about the balancing act of family and business, the turning points in Paramount’s growth, and why listening to employees is a competitive advantage.

If you’ve ever wondered what it looks like to grow a shop across decades and do it with heart, humility, and smarts—this one’s for you.

Show Notes:

2:20 — The garage days: How Paramount started with a manual lathe and a vision
4:03 — Why Eric started with a broom, not a title
7:43 — Choosing the shop over law school
10:43 — Why Steve invests based on employee feedback
14:25 — Betting on Swiss machines changed the game
19:25 — Developing new talent without a programming department
23:30 — Navigating the tension and trust of a family business
37:39 — Datanomix's positive change on Paramount's culture


The Datanomix Difference: What Makes It Work?
It’s not just what you see. It’s how fast you see it, how clearly it shows up, and how easily your team acts on it.
Learn more at www.datanomix.io

Creators and Guests

Host
Greg McHale
Greg founded Datanomix, a company delivering game-changing production insights and intelligence to manufacturers of discrete components. Datanomix was founded on the premise that the 4th industrial revolution would require turnkey products that integrate seamlessly with how manufacturers work today—not clunky workflows that depend on human input or complex data extraction. He brings enterprise data skills to a market ripe for innovation. Greg has held engineering leadership positions at several venture-backed companies and is a graduate of Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
Guest
Eric Van Orden
Paramount Machine Swiss Lead
Guest
Steve Van Orden
President at Paramount Machine

What is Manufacturing Mavericks?

Manufacturing Mavericks aren’t afraid to shake things up and stand out from the crowd. They are embracing the best tools and technology to showcase world-class American manufacturing and grow their business.

Join Greg McHale, founder of Datanomix, as he sits down with these exceptional people to hear their stories and explore the important lessons they learned along the way. Listeners can gain valuable insights they can use in their own facilities to improve their bottom line.

Greg: Welcome to Manufacturing Mavericks, a podcast where we showcase and celebrate exceptional people from across precision manufacturing who are boldly embracing new ways to improve their processes, grow their bottom lines, and ensure American manufacturing will thrive for generations to come.

Greg: Welcome to this episode of Manufacturing Mavericks. I’m your host, Greg McHale, and on today’s episode, I get to do a first time bit, so far, in the history of the podcast, which is I have the great honor of speaking to a first-generation and second-generation family business at exactly the same time. And we’re going to dig into the intricacies and the interplay and the challenges and the fun of having that dynamic. So, without further ado, welcome to the podcast, Steve and Eric Van Orden from Paramount Machine. How are you guys doing today?

Steve: Doing good. We appreciate being on here.

Eric: Yeah, thank you.

Greg: It’s my pleasure to have you guys and to have gotten to know both of you over the last several years and the impressive company that you’ve built and culture that you’ve built and you know, ways that I have seen you guys innovate and grow the business. So, absolute honor to have you.

Steve: Thanks again.

Greg: So, how about we start out for those who haven’t heard of Paramount Machine—which should be nobody because you guys have fantastic marketing—but for those who haven’t heard of Paramount Machine, why don’t you guys tell us a little bit about the business and how it got started, and where you guys are at today?

Steve: Okay, I’ll start with where we got started, and about the business. So, approximately 30 years ago, started out as a part time gig in my backyard, and it grew from there. Very fortunate along the way, having great, talented people come along and say, “Hey, let’s do this together.” So, we grew that way, much more of a tooling shop, manual machines, and tool and die work, and we’ve evolved into CNC machines. Only have two or three manuals left in the shop. 70 people, 30,000 square foot building.

Greg: And Steve, at the outset, how did you and when you say ‘backyard,’ you mean like in a shed, or what do you mean ‘in the backyard?’

Steve: I built a garage out back and I put machines back there and work for about a year, part time, and then about a year full time in that garage.

Greg: Wow. And is it still there now?

Steve: It’s still there. It’s just a storage shed now.

Greg: [laugh]. Does it have old machines in it, or does it have toys in it?

Steve: My toys and everybody else’s.

Greg: [laugh].

Eric: There’s room enough. Both his kids know that we can stop by and store stuff there, and it’s good for that, now.

Greg: Awesome. And in those beginning days, Steve, how did you first find customers?

Steve: Early days was a group of us that had worked together, all had left and started shops. And I was the last one, so the other guys were feeding me work, and then it just became word of mouth.

Greg: So, the shop that you were at basically spawned a number of other shops in the area?

Steve: Yeah, there was at least five of us that had shops at one point. And we’re all near the same age, within a few years.

Greg: Awesome, so you basically started doing overflow stuff and then when did you get you to the building you’re in now and how did that growth happen?

Steve: So, a year, again, in the backyard full time, moved to a [condo 00:03:49] shop near the house for about a year. After that, I had a neighbor that was selling his cabinet shop and building, and I bought the building. We were there for about ten years, and we’ve been here about fifteen.

Greg: Fantastic. And Eric, when did you start working in the family business?

Eric: Well, I don’t know what the labor regulations were, but I ran a band saw when I was probably ten in the backyard and—

Greg: [laugh]. Dads are exempt from that. Yeah, dads are exempt from that.

Eric: Twenty years ago, I did some part-time stuff during the summers, after school, on the weekends, cleaning the bathrooms, washing the walls, mopping the floor, sweeping things like that. Did some college and left for a little bit, and then came back 16 years ago. And so, I was in our previous building for a year full time, and then been here since so in our new building. So, it’s been a long evolution, and always been around it, but full time, 16 years.

Greg: When you first started, Eric, the things that you talked about doing, the glamorous jobs of cleaning the bathrooms and whatnot, was that part of your initiation or what?

Eric: Yeah, it was. My dad has a saying about cleanliness is next to godliness, and so he likes to—

Greg: Is that a song?

Eric: —keep things clean. It might be. It was an important thing, and it meant something to the guys in the shop to have a clean area to work in. And it’s something that we’ve predicated upon. And I feel like we have one of the nicer shops in the area, maybe—

Greg: Definitely.

Steve: I don’t know about the industry, there’s plenty of other great places, but we try and keep things clean, and it makes workflow better. It’s a better place to come and work. So yeah, it was important, and there were expectations to it.

Greg: And Steve, from your point of view, was that part of how you wanted Eric to learn basically all the different aspects of the business and earn the respect of the guys that you already had in place? Or what was your thought process there?

Steve: Exactly that, Greg. You hit the nail on the head. It actually is a great learning journey if you start the bottom and see everything on the way up. Plus, there is no respect for the boss’s son unless he earns it and that gave him a chance to earn it.

Greg: It’s interesting. I mean, obviously there’s a lot of generational businesses out there, lot of family-run machine shops even, and you sort of see both ways. Sometimes you see the approach you took, where it’s like, “Hey, get out there and earn your stripes so people don’t just think it’s your last name that lets you say what it is you’re going to say or why you’re going to say it.” And in other cases, I’ve seen where folks actually try to have their son or daughter actually focused more on, like, the business side or the sales and marketing side, so they don’t necessarily get into, you know, all the details of the shop floor. And they can both, kind of, work for different reasons.

Steve: Yeah, there’s lots of ways to make things work.

Eric: And I don’t think 16—well, it would have been, like, 20 years ago because it was when I was part-time—I don’t know that either of us had an expectation of me coming to work here. My dad had probably the idea of an opportunity to be able to do that. I was looking to make some money to go hang out with my friends and it was what I was able to do at the time. And, like, what you’re talking about on how bringing someone up through even just cleaning the walls and bathroom, there was an expectation to it, and making sure that I was actually working when I was there, I wasn’t just goofing off.

Greg: How did that ultimately play out for you, Eric, and what types of different things did you graduate to or learn along the way?

Eric: So, I was working at a credit card company. I was working on my business degree. I was going to get a law degree. I figured with those two I could do anything I wanted. Life circumstances, I called my dad, “Hey, I think I want to come work at the shop.” And he said, “I don’t know. Give me two weeks. I got to see if I have somewhere to even put you.” And…

Greg: Wow. That’s some tough love right there.

Eric: Yeah. And it wasn’t an expectation when I called him, so I wasn’t shocked by him saying, “I don’t know. I have to see what I can do.” So, I started to deburring parts and finishing parts, and did that for… about a year, and kind of moved on and progressed there based on asking questions and wanting to be involved and trying to figure out, okay, if this is what I’m going to do, I need to dedicate myself to it and how can I be the best at it?

Greg: From your point of view, Steve, how did you see that progression, and how did you think about either increasing the scope or giving more responsibility?

Steve: So, part of the reason things happened like they did, I didn’t think we’d ever grow this big. We’ve been very, very fortunate. You know, I thought we’d be that eight-man shop out there forever and ever. And in an eight-man shop, things are different and so that’s why we started down that path. You can be a great leader a lot of different ways, but also learning from the ground and coming up and learning everything in the shop, it makes you a strong leader and I knew that.

Greg: When did you get to the point where you were like, “Okay, hey, Eric’s ready for more.”

Steve: He always let me know.

Greg: [laugh]. I know he’s not shy about telling you.

Steve: There’s a lot of opportunities for everybody. We always talk about, if you want something, go after it, and we’ll find a way to get help you get it. And that’s everybody in the shop. And Eric understands that completely and he’s the one that tells me, “Hey, I’m ready for this. Let’s do this. Let’s move over. I’ve got it.”

Eric: And in some of these conversations that we’ve had with you and other people that, you know, have been broadcast like this in this forum, we talk about the group of people and the dedication from the entire group. And that entire group does have a knowledge and an understanding that they are able to go and reach out for something and take ownership of it. If you’re willing to take ultimate ownership of something, that’s really showing when you’re ready for the next step. And being accountable when things go wrong, that’s how you really show that, not only just the successes, but sharing in the failures too.

Greg: And when you guys think about this dynamic going forward, like, Steve, you said, “Hey, I thought we were going to be an eight-man shop forever.” Now, you’re 70 people, which is incredible. I know you guys have top-notch equipment, top-notch technology, you’re always innovating, looking for the next edge, the next advantage, you know, the next opportunity to make great parts in a way that lets you maybe take jobs that others might not be able to take. I mean, where does all of that dynamic come from, in the combination of the two of you, and you know, how are you thinking about more growth like that?

Steve: More growth is where I always seem to be heading. I keep thinking, “Okay, this is enough,” and then there’s another hurdle or mountain, and we chase after that. Eric gives me a lot of opportunity to chase more. I’m going to say that across the board: in the shop, we have a great crew. There’s lots of guys that help inspire me to be comfortable saying, “Hey, we can figure this out. We got it.” And Eric is definitely in the top tier of that group, helping out with that.

Greg: What is it that Eric and the team do, Steve, that gives you that comfort and that boldness to tackle the next mountain?

Steve: It’s knowledge and it’s effort, knowing we don’t know how to do this, but let’s figure it out. And they’ll try different methods and different things, and you’ll draw on experiences, but you also reach out and find out what’s new. Not a bunch of people stand around saying, “How do you want me to do this and where’s my PowerPoint?”

Greg: Yeah [laugh]. So, it’s really, it’s the commitment of your team. It’s like, they’re dedicated to whatever’s next, whatever it takes.

Steve: Sure. And there’s a lot of, well, “Holy crap, what do you do to me? Why are we going to do this?” There’s so much satisfaction when you figure it out.

Eric: I think that the group of us, and the group that’s in the shop, my dad’s very good at being open and honest in conversations, and we all understand his expectations and kind of his gut feeling. We all take a personal accountability of it and a sense of ownership. And we research the hell out of stuff and we spend hours after work researching, digging, trying to find different tools, methods, innovations. And because of the openness between my dad and the shop, we’re able to come to him and either validate what he’s feeling and helping him get to that point of assurance, or we’re helping him invalidate it and saying, “No, I understand how you originally thought this, but we really need to go this direction and here’s my research why. This is how I arrived at that point.” And he’s really good with an open mind, seeing that and saying, “Okay. Let’s go that way. What do you need? What do you need?” So, I think that’s the key.

Greg: That’s a fantastic dynamic. It basically sounds like there’s room and opportunity to say, “Hey, here’s a potentially new or different thing or way of doing something that we should be considering,” and Steve, you bring to the table of, “Here’s why we do it this way, here’s why we optimized for that, but you know what? I’ll take a look, and let’s see where we shake out on it,” like. Like, there’s no resistance to it. It’s more like, let’s make a modern reassessment of where we are and what we’re trying to do.

Steve: Correct. Every day is a, let’s reinvent what we’re doing and let’s move forward and let’s grow this.

Greg: What’s a recent—or it doesn’t have to be recent, but what’s an example of a fairly significant investment or bet or change that happened through that kind of conversation or dynamic that has helped you guys grow?

Steve: It usually isn’t huge things that happen. It’s all the little things that add up; it’s base hits. It’s not home runs all the time.

Greg: Like one Swiss machine, for instance.

Steve: Correct. We bought our first Swiss machine because we had a customer that came to us late and needed some parts. And it was weather dependent, and it was getting close to winter, and we’ve never had a screw machine, and we just went out and bought a screw machine and said, “Okay, we’ll figure it out.” And he’s really, actually a brand new customer that we had no history with either. Yeah, and we’ve grown that to seven Swisses now.

Greg: So, in that case, I mean, did you know you had enough work from this one opportunity to justify the purchase of the machine, or was there more to it?

Eric: There was a lot of hope that everything went right. And if everything went right, the ROI shrunk so much that there would have to be effort, but with some effort, we could probably get to a profitable area where the machine paid for itself. I don’t think in that case, we thought that it would blow up like it did, but it did. More recently, one thing that comes to my mind is that we went from a robot-tended twin-turret live tooling—

Steve: Twin-turret live tooling lathe, yeah.

Eric: —to a twin-turret [MT 00:16:00], you know, milling spindle, lower turret on the bottom for turning with a bar feeder. We had some success with one that we had on the floor replicated, and we kind of looked at where we were at with the load, the robotic, live tooling lathe, and decided to take a swing and get rid of it and go to a mill turn.

Greg: In that case, what was it that gave you the confidence or the insight to make a change?

Eric: I think what was the most that gave Steve the confidence was the buy in from the shop floor. He had multiple guys saying, “Look, this is what we’re doing now. This is what I can promise you we can do.” I’m not sure he was entirely sold on it at first, and he is now because he’s signing the check for the machine now, but I think that it was the shop floor that really pushed him to do it.

Steve: No, I’m going to agree with that. It was people on the floor that pushed me to that, and the confidence behind them that okay, we’re going to go down this road and make it right. There are so many things in life that you make decisions, and if you get scared and run away from it too fast, you fail. You know, like, go out there and work hard to make the decision right.

Eric: And that was, like you said, go out there and work hard. That was when I approached him of, “Hey, I want to switch careers and come here,” I knew the path I was down, I would be okay, but I didn’t want to do that anymore. And I thought if I worked hard, I could have just as equally a successful life. And is the money different from a machinist and a lawyer? Yeah, it is, but I guess what I figured, you know, what I could do enough to be happy as long as I work hard.

And this is what I try and tell some of the younger guys in the shop that are, you know, 18, 19, 25 years old. And this is what—when I was that same age, I saw the guys in the shop, they had brand new lifted trucks, they had four wheelers, they had side-by-sides, trailers, nice houses. Well, how did they get that? They worked hard. And that’s where I came with the approach and I tell the guys now, like, “Hey, if you work hard, you can be successful at anything you want to do. It’s just how much you want to put into it.”

Greg: What this sounds like to me is an ownership culture where, again, like, the team on the floor feels like they have the latitude to say, “Yeah, you know what? We can go to this piece of equipment. We can take on this work we’ve never taken on before. We got it, Steve. You know, we’re going to make it happen.” And on the flip side, you believe that the team is bought in enough and committed enough that they’ll see it through, right? I think you said a few minutes ago, Steve, that if people run away from the challenge early, well, you know, it’s like giving up is always the number one cause of failure, right? The people who never give up always live another day and find another way. How did you get that culture in place, and how do you find people that line up with that? Because that sounds really unique.

Steve: You have to live it and preach it. And if I gave lip service to it, it wouldn’t go. But money, benefits, opportunities, people see the results of being that way, and it matters. It changes the culture.

Greg: And so, when you get younger folks in—like, Eric, you were talking about 18, 19, folks in their 20s—do you push them, incentivize them, motivate them to try new things? Or how does that catch on?

Steve: I’m going to say that it is hard because we learn in schools by memorization. We don’t teach to learn and there’s a different skill set there.

Eric: There’s not an exact science to it, and everyone learns, everyone listens, everyone talks differently. I think that if you can figure out how someone receives information and can deliver it to them in a way that they’re receptive to it, then you can really start to influence them. Once you’re able to start influencing them, then you really see what their mettle is and where they can go. They may not see it, but you could probably see it. And based on what you learned of how to figure that out about that person, then you just have to start pushing the right buttons on that person to get them to be motivated and to be drawn in and to be interested.

One way that I learned was that Steve always gave us the opportunity to run a machine to build something for ourselves. That’s one thing that I try to use to help incentivize people, you know? 18, 19, 20-year-olds. They’re talking about their cars, and they’re talking about things they want to do, and it’s like, “Hey, you know, we could make some of this stuff.” And okay, you want to build a custom trailer hitch for your truck because you like the way it looks?

All right, let’s do that. Let’s figure out how to make a program, let’s find the material, let’s make you invested in it. And then when they get that piece, or whatever they build at the end, they feel a sense of pride and ownership in that and they say, hey, this is a great place to work. Like, I get to do things like this. It’s fun. It’s not, go to work, push buttons begrudgingly, be happy. It’s, I’m excited because I don’t know what the next day is going to bring. I might be able to do something else like this.

Greg: That’s brilliant because it literally changes it from thinking like a job to thinking like, what can I create? Once you say, like, look, the machine is an extension of whatever you want to make, and here use it to go do that.

Eric: Yeah, and it has changed a little bit since we’ve got rid of most of our manuals because it was really easy to go grab a Bridgeport and use the conversational control and punch out a program and teach the new guy how to do that. Now, we’re talking about half-million-dollar mills that we’re letting people do that on, and there’s a workflow. Sometimes on the Bridgeport, it didn’t interrupt the workflow. Some of this does interrupt the workflow, but Steve’s willing to let that happen, to let people learn. And also, okay, you scrap drilling and tapping holes on whatever you’re doing. Well, you learn something from that. So now, when you have to make a part, and we have to make a profit on the part, you’re going to take that experience and use it.

Greg: I love that approach. And that’s actually not something that I have commonly heard across other shops is, instead of just seeing the machine as what you said, Eric, like, okay, come in, push the button, make it happen, to actually get more engaged in the creative and problem-solving and what can I do side of the equation is definitely something that manufacturing as a whole does not always have that, kind of, overarching theme where people really see it as the creative extension of themselves.

Steve: You know, one of the things we do here, too, is we have a lot of programmers. We don’t have a programming department; you program at the machine. That creates some issues and problems and cost, but it also makes everybody feel like they’re an owner, creative product out there for their customer.

Greg: So, they get that whole end-to-end experience, not of just, like, “Hey, throw the program on the machine. Okay, you go ahead and run it.” They’ve got to see the whole thing through.

Steve: Yep, you can’t blame the programmer. You can’t blame the setup guy. You can’t blame the operator. Guess what? It’s part of everything you’re doing there.

Greg: Yeah, that’s all in the mirror. How do you find people that are capable of doing that? Are you building them up? Are you training them up? How do you get there?

Steve: Yeah, you grow them. We think we’re liberal with training and everybody helps everybody. We’ve got a culture that if you share knowledge, that’s how you get more money from Paramount. Your wage structure is based on your skill set up to a certain point and then, are you a multiplier? Are you the guy that helps everybody out?

Greg: And that’s something that you’ve, like, standardized into reviews or communication, or how does the team know that?

Steve: Through communication. We’re really flat on hierarchy, and we’re out in the shop and talking all the time. From my perspective, there’s very few secrets in this building. They know what’s going on and what’s happening and where we’re at and I’m happy to express [laugh] that things are going, for good and bad.

Greg: Yeah. When, Steve, did you come up with that multiplier idea as part of how people grow?

Steve: I stumbled across it [laugh]. I talked to you about we were a tool and die shop or job shop, that everybody built their own part, they heat treated it, they did things. So, as we grew I had talented, great people already. And they weren’t ready to be operators on a CNC machine and so it just kind of grew that way. And then we said, “Hey, that worked.” And so, it just kind of grew out of that.

Greg: Got it. So, it was basically the natural result of the first, kind of, big bet you made in the switch from tool and die to CNC?

Steve: Yeah.

Greg: Like, that was the only way to get there with the team that you had.

Steve: Correct.

Greg: And I know that, as a father and son combination, and someone myself that has worked in the same business as my dad multiple times, that there’s never any disagreements or [laugh] things that need to be debated or resolved. How do you guys approach that dynamic?

Eric: It’s something that we’ve learned. It still happens. I think we’ve learned how to work better with each other. You know, this morning, we were debating about how to program a part, and he had one idea and I had one idea, and we both agreed that we were both right, but at that point it was like, yeah, okay, we’re both right. There’s multiple ways to do it. And none of us had to be… correct. The ultimate correct. Truthfully, I was because I programmed the machine and I run it—

Greg: [laugh].

Eric: He just was sitting behind the desk so…

Steve: But that’s true. I honestly believe that. I feel that way for lots of years, that even if I’m more correct, if the person doing it is bought into what they’re doing, we’re going to win when they do it, and winning is way more important than being right.

Eric: Personally, in between me and him, there’s over—I’m 36; he’s known me for 36 years. I’ve known him for 36 years. We’ve worked together full time for 16 years, part time for four more than that. I think the biggest thing that we both have came to realize is some humility and that we’re both probably more alike than, on the surface, it appears or we would admit to about it. And I think we’re more comfortable admitting it now. And I’ve talked about this too, yes, disagreements, but no, just really passionate conversations.

Steve: I’ll walk away from a very passionate conversation and somebody will worry I’m mad. And I understand. No matter how uptight I am about that conversation, that person just had passion and was arguing what to do the right thing.

Greg: That’s so well said, Steve. With the culture you’ve created, with as much ownership as there is, it’s almost like you should expect that much passion because if people are bought in and they feel like they own it, of course they’re going to want to pour themselves into whatever they think the right outcome or direction is, for all the autonomy that they’ve been given and they’ve earned through how you’ve built it up to that point. So, it’s almost like passionate debate, or whatever you want to call it is like a byproduct of the culture, on purpose.

Steve: Agreed. And I’m okay with it. Like I said, winning for all of us is more important than being right.

Eric: That’s one thing that Steve’s really communicated, that when the shop succeeds, we all succeed. And he talked about earlier in this, if that was a lip service, people would see through it. But as the year goes by and as raises or bonuses come out, they follow with the same conversations of, hey, “This is where we’re at on a profitability standpoint. This is where we need to be better.” And when people start seeing that they start pulling those levers and manipulating it to get better outcomes, then they start getting better outcomes, too. And so, it isn’t just a lip service, but actually following through with that and being able to see that evolution, I think that’s where you get some of that from.

Greg: That’s incredible. I mean, that’s what every business owner or business leader ultimately wants, is for the team to feel some percentage of ownership as much as that is that leader or owner does, right? You go to bed every night wearing about a thousand things, and it moves the needle if one person worries about one of those things and feels like they can make a difference on that topic, in service of the business.

Steve: It does for sure. You know, I’ve come on a Sunday before, and there’s people here working because they know we got to get jobs out. And I didn’t force that, or even ask that. And I reward them for doing that, but that came naturally, not with me pushing it.

Greg: I can remember a few years ago, we had dinner together, and you guys were in the midst of one of your passionate debates [laugh]. I think I ended up basically moderating it over dinner. It was related to, I think it was tooling or tool costs or something of that nature, and really, like, what’s the return of spending time on it. How much would that save? How much would that improve the process?

And sort of hilariously, just like this morning, you were both right then, too, because I think the perspective was, Eric, you were looking at it like, hey, on this job. I know I can get—I’ll make up a number—20% out of the tool cost. And like, yeah, you’re a hundred percent right, you can. And Steve, you were like, and that is worth a nickel [laugh] in the grand scheme of things. So, of all the things you could spend time on to help Paramount, that probably isn’t the biggest payback. So, it’s really interesting how today you guys are saying, look, we’re both right because that was sort of where we ended up that night.

Eric: Yeah. There’s conversations that end that way. And 36-year-old working with his 63-year-old dad is a lot different than an 18-year-old working for his 40-year-old dad.

Steve: We’ve both grown.

Greg: It’s definitely awesome to be able to hear you know that relationship dynamic today and certainly the last few years I’ve known you guys, watched the business grow like it has, and the growth and interaction between the two of you. Where do you see the growth going from here? What are the next big mountains for Paramount?

Eric: You should tell us. You got all our machine monitoring data [laugh].

Steve: [laugh].

Greg: [laugh]. Well—

Eric: Going forward, it’s—

Greg: —I can’t help you make crazy, crazy parts like you guys can. I can tell you how you’re doing.

Eric: Going forward, it is continuing the culture of the shop. Personally, I think that we need to get a little bit more process in and some structure. I’m also empathetic to some of the not-process and not-structure we have. The most important thing, I think, in making sure this continues for as long as it can, is that the camaraderie, the teamwork, having everyone be on the same page, work together, that’s what’s going to lead to the longevity. How to survive in this world, too. There’s a lot of stuff going on, and you got to figure that out, and try to figure out how to hedge your bets against some of the uncertainties of the world. But also just being dedicated to being a manufacturer and wanting to build components and help in any way you can. Do that as a team, and that’s where you’re going to grow the most.

Greg: Steve, what are you seeing as the next couple mountains?

Steve: I think the same thing that we’ve been doing. We’ve done a great job of recruiting and have a young group here to grow in so that we do survive the next generations. Our biggest group of demographics of ten years is between 20 and 30 right now, and then 30 to 40 is the second. And we’re going to grow that talent, and Eric’s going to put processes in place and put a little more structure, but we’re going to work and make those guys very talented because I think that’s what separates us as a shop.

Greg: I think it’s awesome, you know, Eric, that you’re talking about longevity, right, and how do we keep this going for as long as it’s possible to keep this going? And I also think it’s super interesting that what you both just described is basically at the crossroads of, Steve, the ownership culture that you’ve built, which is—it’s not like it’s without process, but it has more latitude, right, to allow people to have the impact that they do on all the different elements of the process. And to have that at 70 people is really impressive because that’s a lot of people to have on the same page, across multiple shifts, across a company that size the number of machines you have, you know, there’s a lot of moving parts there. And for you guys to feel like that culture is well established at that size, is super impressive. And then it sounds like going forward, Eric, you’re saying, like, if we’re going to keep growing, how do we do what we’re doing with 70 people, with 100 people or 150 people, and what does it take to get there?

Eric: Yeah. And I’m counting on my hands here and trying to get the right amount of people, but there are seven people in this shop—which, if we’re 70 people, that’s 10% of the shop—they have a family member that works here. If it’s one, that’s 20% so 20% of our workforce is related. We have a guy. That’s worked here for quite some time. You know, and some of these seven people I’m counting have worked for the shop for 25 years.

We have one guy, his son, is in high school doing an apprenticeship program, and he’s doing his apprenticeship program through here. So, when I talk about the longevity, it’s what can we do that—you know, his dad’s in his mid-40s, but what can we do so that if he wants to stick with this in 30 years, we could still be here and he could still have employment? I’m not convinced that my kids want to get a part of this. Too early to tell and I don’t—even if you asked my dad at my age my kids were, if I was going to be involved, he’d be like, “I don’t know. I just want him to be successful.” But he wanted to have an opportunity for me to do something here. So that’s, you know, the longevity that I’m talking about is, how do we make sure that all these families that have helped care and grow and build, how do we keep providing for them in perpetuity?

Greg: Beautifully stated, Eric, and I think kind of a great summary of where a multi-generational company that has a culture like Paramount does, ultimately, that’s the ideal place to end up. I mean, Steve, you must feel incredibly proud hearing your son say that, when you know 20 years ago, maybe you didn’t know if he even wanted to be anywhere near the building right?

Steve: Very much so. I’m grinning ear to ear, listening to Eric tell you that story there. And I am very, very proud.

Greg: And I have to say again, it’s been a great honor to be a very, very, very small part of the journey with you guys over the last couple years and to see you just continue to innovate on every dimension: machines, technology, people, automation, crazy parts, and new things that you guys are trying with machines. The way that you push the envelope and that you’ve gotten that, again, to the point you have where, with 70 people, that’s still the main thrust of your culture is just so awesome to watch and to hear about over the course of this episode. So, I got to give you guys tremendous congratulations for everything you’ve accomplished and certainly wish you nothing but amazing success and—I’ll use your word, Eric—longevity going forward. You guys definitely, definitely deserve it. Some of the certainly most awesome people in the industry.

Steve: Well, thanks, Greg.

Eric: Thanks.

Steve: Do you have a minute I can share a Datanomics culture story?

Greg: Please. How could I say no to that?

Steve: I don’t remember the exact story. You’ll be able to—you and Eric will be able to do this better. You guys got in contact with Eric. Eric said, “Show up five in the morning,” and you guys did. We made the switch to Datanomix, and we had it implemented.

Now, if we had a bean-counter, he wouldn’t have been happy how we implemented it because maybe our measurable cost benefit from having Datanomics in the shop was hard to measure because we kind of soft-rolled it in. But in doing that and showing people this is for the benefit of the shop, not to yell at people or point fingers or accuse people of not working right, it grew in a right way culturally. And recently, we added a new machine, and the operator running that machine was way concerned that he had Datanomics on there so he could show the world how good he’s doing on that machine.

Greg: [laugh].

Steve: [laugh].

Greg: That’s fantastic.

Steve: That’s kind of an example that we didn’t use Datanomix to beat up anybody. We talked about the data and sometimes the data didn’t look good, but we—honest conversations about it, and working out, what can we do. And from that, I got people wanting it on their machines to measure.

Greg: I mean, I think that’s a testament to you, more than it is to anything about Datanomix, really, to both you guys. I mean, number one, that’s kind of the way you do a lot of your innovation, right, is like, start it in one spot, figure out how to make it great, and then ramp it up from there. And then, I mean, number two, I can remember, Eric, lots of conversations between us, where as new areas were being, you know, brought online, there’d be questions about, you know, “Well, why does it say, my performance is this?” And, you know, you really pushed back on the ownership thing and we’re like, “Well, if that’s what it says, is that really what it is? Can we make it better?” Right? You totally turned things into a positive and, you know, got people very oriented around thinking in terms of performance and what can we be, or what should we be?

Eric: I appreciate you putting it back on a testament to us, but it’s a testament to you guys, too, because, as Steve said, we kind of soft-rolled it and the bean-counter wouldn’t have been happy how we did it, but we got ultimate buy-in. But what requires some of that is me calling you at seven, my time, 9 p.m. your time, and saying, “Greg, this is where we’re at. This is what I need help with. I need this to roll. I got to go.” And then the next day, we’re connecting again, first thing in the morning, and we’re getting processes figured out, and we’re understanding how to implement it.

And you guys, whenever we called you and said, we need help, you immediately jumped up. “How can we help? What can we do? How can we make sure you’re taken care of?” And then once we got that taken care of, maybe we slowed down a little bit, but you guys were okay with that too, and you weren’t pushing us. “Hey, you got to do this. You got to do this. You got to do this.” You guys helped us roll out the way that we felt comfortable doing it, and so it’s also a testament to how willing and serviceable your whole team at Datanomix is, too.

Greg: I definitely appreciate you saying that. And by the way, there’s nothing I love better than customers who call me at 9 p.m. text me at 10 p.m. and make me show up at 5 a.m. [laugh]—

Eric: [laugh].

Greg: Because that’s commitment and ownership, right? I mean, that’s what we’ve been talking about the whole time. If you don’t have that, you know, what do you want? You want people who don’t call you, don’t talk to you, and don’t care? Definitely not.

Eric: And definitely, from your perspective, you have shown commitment and ownership on that. And I know you’re trying to push it back on me a little bit, too, but it’s a two way street.

Greg: No, again, it’s been awesome. And again, watching the story, hearing the story today, like I said, Steve, I hope you feel a tremendous sense of pride and accomplishment, and I think you guys will just keep smashing the barriers that you do and keep figuring out what’s next because that’s how you’re built and no one’s going to take that out of you and you guys never give up and there’s a lot to be said for that.

Eric: Well, thanks.

Steve: Yeah, appreciate it.

Greg: Awesome. Well, tremendous having you guys on here. I think this is going to be a fantastic episode for listeners to get, you know, definitely an inside look at the first and second-generation dynamic, and also how you get such an ownership style culture scaled to the size that you guys have done it for. So, I’m confident this episode will be a good one for the manufacturing community and really appreciate your time today.

Eric: Thanks.

Steve: Thanks.

Greg: Thank you for listening to Manufacturing Mavericks. If you’d like to learn more, listen to past episodes, or nominate a future Maverick to be on our show, visit mfgmavericks.com, and don’t forget to subscribe to and rate this podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app.