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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of parenting in youth sports in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
Who said we don't have soccer culture in this country?
Was it you, Matt?
Because I got news for you, buddy.
We have it.
And today, I brought a professor to tell us all about it.
Now, Matt, 2 dads spending late
Sunday night talking about their kids soccer getting lectured by a professor.
What could be better than that?
Uh, maybe an intervention.
That's what this felt like.
And who said, and who said
top athletes have to choose between school and sports?
Some kids are getting both.
I want to know why that's still feels like it's
such a special arrangement.
Our sons have started high school.
We and others get pushed back around absences.
We're trying to support soccer, the dream
without compromising the education.
I know we're not the only families having this conversation.
Yeah, I mean, we hear about Philly Union all the time.
I think secret sauce there.
Somehow they've solved that pressure point.
And Mark Franek is an educator, former attorney.
Most importantly, a soccer dad, professor at YSC
Academy, within the Philly Union environment, played at Duke,
although he says he wasn't good, teaches American soccer history,
and wrote a book about the American soccer culture
called the American soccer nation.
We're talking about the soccer culture we already have, why
our kids should know its history.
and how serious academics can fit along serious soccer.
Mark also challenges the idea that college is a consolation prize.
If the professional contract never comes.
Yeah, and I am going to warn all our listeners, I
read this book and now I'm a devout Bethlehem Steel
fan and I want to know who comes against me.
So uh, and Matt said halfway through.
I should be Mark's publicist.
So we'll see.
I think you already are and right rightfully so.
I mean, Mark's incredibly passionate.
Put the work in.
And this is Chasing the Game, youth soccer in America.
Liron: Mark, welcome to Chasing the Game.
I'm gonna go straight
to the chase, if I may.
you have a legal career.
you could see your son developing
in parallel, but you felt that
you were missing time, right?
So you decided to leave your job
What was behind that decision, how
are these commutes with your son?
mark: Yeah.
Great.
So thank you, first off.
It- I'm delighted to be here
You guys do a great job, and I've
listened to a half a dozen, maybe
even up to a dozen of, of your work.
Liron: It's more than I've listened to, so
matt: not true.
mark: Yeah.
so yeah, my story, I put a good
foot 15 years in as an educator,
as a professional educator.
I graduated from college, and my
first job out of college was to
be the head soccer coach of all
things, and an English teacher at
Montgomery Academy down in Alabama.
And then I moved up to the Philadelphia
area, and then did that for another
10 years at the William Penn Charter
School, which is a Quaker school,
and then became the dean of students.
Had a good 15, 18 years in, a perfectly
good career, and then met, married my
wife, who happened to be a lawyer, and
chucked it all away and decided to go be
a lawyer at mid-career, which I managed
to maintain for about seven years until
my son, who was about seven years old
at the time, and partners, I realized,
"Listen, I'm not gonna be, the next,
I'm not gonna be the next partner and
bringing in Facebook execs," because all
the people that I knew were like painters,
and plumbers that I would bring in.
And my boss at the time was like, "Mark,
you can't charge these guys $50. We--
an hour. We haven't charged anybody
$50 an hour in 40 years." I'm like, I
don't know any Mark Zuckerberg types.
I know soccer guys."
That wasn't my life and, I'm
missing my son's games, and I'm
now coaching a little bit more.
My kid's getting good, and I'm
looking at these long hours.
I'm like, "Listen, I don't need…
I'm lucky because of my wife, who's an
attorney, we don't need to have this type
of income." And most importantly, and
this is a true story, I went to go get
Quinn Sullivan's autograph, and Brendan
is a friend of mine, and I went into
the school to get Quinn's signature,
who I had, who I'd been following.
the head of the school there
was the lower school director
when I was back at Penn Charter.
Hadn't seen her in 10 years, but she
saw me at that time when we talked about
maybe I wasn't happy as being a lawyer.
So yeah, I waltzed right back in to a
veritable perfect job, Matt and Liron.
Imagine, we're gonna pay you a salary.
You're gonna teach 40 kids a year.
You have no bus duties or administrative
disciplinary responsibilities.
You're gonna teach four
classes of English.
And oh, by the way, we want you to
develop a history of soccer class.
And I'm like, "You're
gonna pay me to do this?
Where can I sign?"
matt: That's amazing.
Just one, one part of
your, your background.
You played-- You went to Duke University
and played soccer at Duke University.
mark: I was not very good.
I was-- There's a picture of me
on the Duke soccer team, and I got
a jersey, and I got to choose my
classes and got my stuff washed in the
Duke, laundry facilities, but I was
probably 24th on a 28-person roster.
But yes, I did play at Duke.
I've loved soccer my entire life.
Got started fairly late.
Played a bunch of years in Iceland,
which is another part of my story.
I've always been around the game
matt: Amazing.
All right, we just lost 28,000 people
from Chapel Hill, so we'll carry on.
So Mark, uh, Your employer educates your
son, the union develops him, and your
book presents that environment as a model.
What does that proximity let you
see that no outside writer could?
mark: So listen, being a part of the
union now professionally for five
years, and then living in the large,
the Philadelphia region for 20, what
the union has been able to do because
of their money and their resources and
their ownership structure, we just have
to be honest, we have to celebrate it.
they have figured out, because of
alignment in their ownership structure
and this tremendous gift that Richie
Graham and Graham Partners and his
brother have given the, the, this,
the MLS franchise, they created this
monster, this wonderful monster that
allows this place to attract talent in
ways that are very hard to replicate.
Not impossible, but difficult,
and there's no denying the facts.
just the sheer number of homegrowns that
are coming out of this place that are
now playing on, clubs in Europe and also
being pulled up to the national team as
we speak, the facts and data do not lie.
So yes, it should be celebrated
matt: I was gonna s- as an outsider in
this, but paying attention to the success
that's come out of that academy and the
professional in the first team, we should
absolutely celebrate it, and we should
be trying to replicate it- Yeah … in,
in every environment we possibly can.
because as you said, the,
the facts are the facts,
mark: Yes, it is true, I am an insider.
I work there.
I see the 85 kids every day.
I am responsible to make sure
that they write better and to
read the next book, and I see them
living the dream, so to speak.
But why is it working?
as a dad of a 15-year-old elite
player, and as a writer and a person
who knows and loves soccer, right?
Here's why it works, and
Imagine a high school, that's completely
embedded within a franchise with
15 teachers who are professionals
at their individual curriculum,
if you will, who like soccer, but
don't care how many minutes, you
know, Alphonso or Andy is getting.
They don't care.
They just care about their own
individual classes, which are small.
There's only 40 kids, guys.
This is music to any public
or independent school's ears.
And the kids come all day.
They first, they train in the morning,
they shower in this $50 million facility,
five-minute walk, they go over and get
their bagel and their orange juice.
They come to their first class, and they
have five classes compressed in the middle
of the day where they're around all the
other boys in their Philadelphia Union
gear, and they're looking at their videos,
and they're getting clips from their
coaches, and they're being educated to go
to college because we're a prep school.
And then at 3:15, last class, 10 minutes
later, the hallways are empty because
they're all back training for their
second afternoon training or their lift.
And then on Saturday, you'll see maybe
one-third of the boys at the game.
This past Saturday, true
story, I was there in the box.
I probably saw, 30 kids in the stands
and in and around the box seats because
they're getting free tickets either
from their older friends who are pros or
from the Union coaches or from teachers.
And then on f- Monday, tomorrow, we
go back and do this again, and the
kids never, just to put a button
on it, they never have to feel that
their dream is unattainable or an
outsider status or second or third.
It is completely, they are living
totally immersed in the soccer dream,
and it's really unique in North
America, and the Union is lucky.
How wonderful is it that there's
this place that's for you
guys 24/7, five days a week?
It's just really brilliant, and the
kids don't know how lucky they are
Liron: what a classic, uh, dad line, and,
uh, you know, you, you've built this, this
rosy beautiful, uh, picture, so eloquent.
But as a dad, I'm just imagining
your journey and you commuting with
your son, and you wrote in the book,
you said that you tap on his knee
and you say, "Looks like optimism."
Can you just explain what
soccer culture is in your house?
How is it translated from your
family to him, and obviously
as, who you are as a professor?
mark: what's really great about it is that
while it is a different journey for every
family, if I compare my story to Brendan
Sullivan's story, to Andrew Craig's
story, to Neil Pierre's story, to Frankie
Westfield, here's one of the things.
Almost all of them have crazy dads right?
Crazy soccer dads.
So I'm just gonna say my vacations
are scheduled around soccer.
I watch soccer all weekend.
I don't care about basketball or baseball.
I laugh at it.
If I have to watch an NFL
game, I'll turn it on, right?
It's all soccer all the time.
I'm still playing.
I get angry when I lose.
I get angry when some guy doesn't text me.
I can't go tonight.
It's raining.
My head goes crazy.
it's soccer all the time.
and I'm basically light, light.
I could tell you stories, which I
won't, about Brendan and Andrew Craig,
and maybe you have guys in your own
environment, we're not even that crazy.
I thought I was crazy.
My wife thought I was crazy.
Listen, you… no, no.
There's a whole other level of craziness.
Liron: Guess what none of them
have though on Sunday nights?
Podcasts.
Yeah.
mark: right.
But you know what?
The great thing is that the better
guys, I think, and the parents also
infuse the love of the game and
things that have, the things that
stem and are learned from the game.
the skills that you're learning about
how to be a part of a team, the diversity
that it takes to be around people from
different backgrounds, socioeconomic,
racial, ethnicity, the s- the shaking
of the hands and looking people in the
eyes, the ability to always hustle,
never get up, give up, stop complaining
about your minutes, stop complaining.
And there's a lot of soccer people,
soccer dads and soccer moms for
that matter, and pr- maybe it's
not just unique to soccer, although
there's some uniqueness about soccer,
Stop complaining, show up, play
hard, don't complain, figure out
how to make your coach happy.
And these are skills that
you're gonna have long after
you lead more sedentary lives
matt: Mark, you talked
about the ride to school.
mark: Best part of my day, man.
Best part
matt: yeah.
What about the ride home after
a training or after a match?
So the harder version.
The game didn't go as
well as your son wanted.
Maybe there's an injury, there's
a selection disappointment.
How does the ride home go?
does, does River get his father?
Does he get the teacher?
Does he get a combination?
how do you bifurcate that?
mark: Right.
Now you had a whole podcast or part
of a podcast dedicated to this, which
is the ride home was very important.
And I think you had even some
mental health coaches sound
off about how important it is.
I will tell you that I don't
ascribe to any of it, and I
know I'm not the only one.
I'm gonna quote, I'm gonna quote
Brendan Sullivan because he was
just quoted in The Athletic.
Brendan was quoted by saying when he gets
in the car, even when he was six, hike up.
Mom was talking about how, and they get
in the car, we always talked about soccer.
And Brendan interrupted the
interview and said, "Immediately."
I love it because that's me.
I'm Brendan Light.
I'm Brendan, Medium Light.
I-- What-- The, the thing
is, I launch right into him.
Why did you do that?
What are you doing?
not all the time, right?
In my house, there's no hiding, right?
You, you-- Listen, I'm not asking anything
of you that I didn't-- was asked of me
when I was growing up or any of the,
the slight endeavors that I had growing.
oh, if I go to Iceland, for example, at
23 to play semi-pro, it's not important.
I was not very good.
But when I show up on the island after
they pay me flight ticket, and they give
me a little room to sleep in, right?
And a bike to get to practice
or a little dirt car, do you
think that the guys in the town
probably have an advantage over me?
Yes.
And if I don't effing play,
I'm gonna be on the bench.
That's my story.
Every soccer dad and mom who's ever played
at any decent level has certain stories.
Shut up.
Play harder.
Whatever.
And now this is me as a teacher, though.
I can get
away with it.
Oh my God, I can't use the
words, I can't use the words.
No, I can't use the words
because I'm gonna get fired.
in my car ride home, it's immediately
embarking or sometimes rarely,
if I'm really quiet, then I know
River knows I'm really pissed.
Liron: That's the worst.
Yeah
mark: No, but listen,
why does it sorta work?
You have to know your kid.
I know that my son can handle that
criticism 'cause he has success in a
lot of different areas already, and I've
already celebrated his successes all week.
Great story.
You're writing better than
everybody in that particular
class, and you're a year up.
Or like you, you're already experiencing
success and just wonderful support,
so I can launch into you when
occasionally you don't step up.
And that's different than other
peoples, and I guess it's a long-winded
answer to say there isn't any one
right way to be a player, and there
isn't any one right way to be a parent
Liron: Obviously, you have success on
both of those fronts with, with him.
I've met him.
He's a wonderful young man.
But you wrote a book, so
obviously, you have something
to say, as we can all hear now.
Bring s- Cavan Sullivan
as an example again.
You talk in the book again, you bring
another example of him walking into
class one day, and I'm paraphrasing,
and complaining about how boring
the history of U.S. soccer is.
So you go, "Wait a minute. Let me write
a book about this. let me teach you."
So what did the boys really reject?
mark: that's great, right
Liron: what this is about.
But why did you approach this project?
mark: I love soccer.
I played soccer.
I did all this soccer stuff.
I'd never re- written a book
about s- American soccer.
I started reading it.
And to be frank, many of the books
that ended up getting published in
America in the last 20 years are
remarkably negative about our sport.
They're complaining incessantly, the
point, though, is if you're charged
with teaching 15-year-olds the
history of American soccer, they're
15, you're not gonna bring them in
this, this book by David Goldblatt
David Goldblatt wrote this wonderful
book, and he's a English historian,
and his book is, 1,100 pages long.
If I brought that in, it would
be like a rat sitting on my desk.
The kids wouldn't even come into class
and they'd look at that three-inch
book there, and they'd go to Brendan's
classroom to get yelled at, right?
teaching soccer history is difficult
when the major texts that are out
there are negative, fragmented, right?
But there's very little positive
books that cover our story with enough
detail, because it's all about stories
and stories within stories, and that
has a positive bent that the kids
can see their American story in it.
So that was the charge.
I read about a dozen books.
I'm like, "I can't keep teaching this
stuff." And Cav's point was well taken.
He came in one time, he threw some book
down and said, "I'm not reading this,"
bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep,
"anymore," and threw up his hands.
And he's only 13, by the way.
he's, he was in the class.
He's the youngest.
That's Cav, right?
I have great stories about Cav.
I love that guy.
But I'm like, he's not wrong.
That's the thing about Cav.
the style and the approach could
be m- modulated a little bit,
but he's right 95% of the time,
even about this particular topic.
I don't wanna read this crap.
And I was thinking, I
wouldn't wanna read it either.
I started writing individual
chapters, and it grew over two years
matt: Make, can you make
the course real for us?
Tell us about an assignment that
changed how a player understood
himself and his place or, and the
impact he could have in the game
mark: So my class is all about
writing, not so much the reading.
So for example, and we might read in one
week maybe a chapter from my book, right?
You also might read an article
from The Players' Tribune.
So they might read a couple soccer
pieces and then, ' cause I have to
get away from Chat, ChatGPT, they'll
have to get out actual paper to write.
We don't write with computers in my class.
But the writing then, might be something
like if you're doing some old stuff, say
we're covering the American Soccer League.
There's this great league that existed in
the United States from 1921 to 1931 that
died out Because of the internal soccer
war in 1928 and then the Great Depression,
which started in 1929, that at the time
rivaled only baseball from the amount of
paying fans up and down the East Coast.
But when the kids start to realize, what?
100 years ago, Bethlehem Steel, an hour
and a half north by horse and buggy or
by, Model T car, was playing the Boston
Wonder Workers up in Boston in front
of 15,000 fans in front of a cup game,
which is now called Lamar Hum- Hunt Open
Cup, and there's 15,000 paying fans,
and the fans are many blue collars and
immigrants, but more diverse than the fans
of any other of the sports, you can see
they're like, "Wow, I never knew that."
And then we talk about what that
means, and we might write about, what
are the causes of why that league
went defunct, which is great 'cause
Americans are really good at shooting
themselves in the soccer foot.
We're reading about soccer,
they're playing soccer, and they're
writing about it, and then we talk
about it, and it's story time.
Can't be boring as a teacher.
You gotta have stories
Liron: We're gonna talk about
the ASL, 'cause I, I'm a
diehard Bethlehem Steel fan now,
mark: You have a bunch
of the Brooklyn teams.
You got some better teams up there.
Liron: I know, but to me,
the Bethlehem Steel did it.
matt: Hey, Mark, if you need a publicist,
I heard Liron has a few free cycles.
Liron: like- I'm crazy
about the book, I admit it.
matt: I,
Liron: I can't st- like, I went crazy.
I told Mark.
All right, digress.
The, I wanna go back to two steps.
I wanna go back to the,
the MLS sucks idea, okay?
We've heard that from kids nonstop.
we're on the outside, you're in.
You're feeling the kids out.
These are the, the top of the crème
de la crème of, of American soccer.
And you've heard that before.
I'm sure you've heard it from the kids.
Do you think those are things that
come from them hearing it at home,
where it's this idea where, "This
is what m- I heard my parents say"?
Or is this kind of an overall
attitude in your classroom?
mark: This issue comes up every year.
Now I'm ready for it because
I'm into my fifth or sixth year.
And it annoys the hell out of me.
Can we just say it?
I am an MLS liker.
There's MLS haters, there's MLS lover.
I'm an MLS liker.
I like it a lot, right?
And I have no tolerance for
people who hate it, What is
there to complain about, guys?
There's 30 teams in the league.
Let me get this straight.
You're in an academy here.
You're in this school.
It's like you, you got hit by
a SEPTA Philadelphia bus, you
died, and you went to heaven.
You know where you ended up?
Right back here in my class, right?
And you're complaining about the MLS.
Three years from now, you could
make six figures, and you could
be playing under the lights
right over there, living at home.
Living at home if you want,
for a couple of years.
What?
Do you know what soccer was like in
this country for the last hundred years?
No, you don't.
You should know because you already
read the chapters, because we don't get
to the MLS version until like April.
So now I'm already hot because
we've already talked about the three
leagues that rose up, and stupid
people, mostly, charlatans mostly,
ruined it for the rest of us.
And now you're complaining about
this modern rendition of which
you are part of the pipeline.
My head explodes like a pumpkin being
thrown out of a car on Halloween.
And then I read them that footnote.
I don't know if you remember, there's
a footnote that talks about most of
this is coming from parents, right?
And this is an American thing.
This is important.
Americans soccer parents, hopefully not us
in our crowd, we're wrong on this issue.
It seems to me that only American
soccer parents in a magnitude
complain about the MLS more than
all the other guys that didn't make
the NBA, and didn't make the NFL.
All those guys, because they're
all guys, and their parents don't
complain incessantly about the
show that they failed to make.
They support it.
Why is so many American players
and their parents in 2026 keep
complaining about the MLS?
This is not good for your kid Complaining
about how the MLS sucks and, "Oh,
if you don't make it, you don't get
minutes." it's because it sucks.
Do you think that's gonna
inspire a kid to get better?
You're actually hurting him.
It doesn't suck.
Play better.
Okay?
Play better.
Impress, right?
Don't say it sucks.
come on, guys, be smarter about our sport.
There's always more things to admire
about where we're going than to despise.
And if you're not on that boat,
then get out of the way, guys.
I don't have any room for you.
Go watch NFL, gridiron football.
We don't care.
But the soccer train is moving.
Get on board
matt: Mark, I, I didn't
notice the tangent.
you, you, you use Joseph Campbell's hero's
journey to help boys understand that,
that most will not, quote unquote, "kill
the dragon" by becoming professionals,
but that that journey still has value.
And who tells a teenager the
professional dream is ending?
mark: So here, let me frame it to you, if
I could, from my own personal experience.
About 10th grade, the kids start
realizing, and maybe their parents
start realizing, "Well, you're pretty
good, but you're not gonna be pro.
They're not gonna cut you, but you're
here, but you're not gonna be the
next Cavan Sullivan, Neil Pierre.
You're college bound, and you're still
important." And if they don't have
parents that preparing them everywhere,
like in my household, similar to Brendan
Sullivan's, pro and college is the same.
I, I hate this A- A dream, B dream.
No, it's not.
It's the same.
If you're good enough to go pro,
great, but you're going to college and
a great college until second notice.
That, it's all the same, right?
matt: Wait, can I, can
I stop you one second?
When you say it's all the same,
meaning you're working as hard
as you can work, you're still
striving to be the best you can be,
Is that right?
mark: For me, and for other dads that
are like me when I meet them on the
weekends or we talk away from the field.
It's not universal, but
the, the voice is this.
Because the Union, remember, has a school
that's dedicated, and all the college
pennants are up there, so it's visual.
you are going to YSC Academy to get the,
the best education you can under the
circumstances, and you're going to use
c- soccer to get into a great college.
I would've never gotten into
Duke if it wasn't for soccer.
I'm not that smart.
My SATs, I, I'm embarrassed to
even tell them to the kids 'cause
I don't want them ragging on me.
But the point is, you're going to
college, and a good college, until further
notice, and if you're good enough to go
pro, then we'll have that conversation.
And when you-- if you don't make
it as the pro, it's not a failure.
You're at college, and then
whatever college brings you.
If you're pretty good but not good
enough to go pro, you're gonna have
five coaches if you learn how to
write an email properly and you
know how to put your tape, even
if you're not playing every game.
Don't tell me that you can't get a
decent SAT score and use your YSC
Academy, your, your, your resume and
stuff a- and get a g- great college.
Well, this is the stuff that, that
kids in Brazil and Croatia would love.
It's wonderful.
Liron: I, I'm so invigorated by this.
The, I, I wanna now go to my favorite
subject, which is the 1920s soccer in
America, Archie Stark, you talk about
this person, and the way I'm bringing
him up in, on, in your book endlessly
about this person who the whole Western
Hemisphere was talking about that
mark: All right
Liron: you were talking about this idea
that the English league at the '20s
had to change their rules so players
don't come to the United States to play.
What was going on here in the '20s?
Talk just a little bit about it,
and then if you could just bring us
into why it fell apart and how is
it parallel to where we are today
mark: Right
matt: noticed by the way, we have
three-part questions on everything now
Liron: I know, I know.
we're, I th- I
matt: Thank, thank God we
have an English teacher.
Liron: I think Matt, I think you
and I are just getting lazier.
That's
matt: lazier
mark: I said, I just don't
wanna bore, the listeners, and I
hope I'm not, and I, I know I'm
Liron: That's my job, not yours.
Yeah
mark: There's a fully functioning,
mostly professional circuit, basically
from Bethlehem, Philadelphia, on
up into Kearny, New Jersey, into
Brooklyn, and then out to Pawtucket,
Rhode Island, and way up to Boston.
It was that circuit, if you will.
In my book, I just call it
the, the four quarters because
it's, they're just connected.
And you either get there by, by train,
by Model T car, or you even would get
there sometimes by steamship boat, right?
Through the '20s.
And it was rivaling baseball
there for a while in terms of the
salaries for the best players.
Imagine going to Fall River, Rhode
Island, in front of this, this, this
stadium that Sam Mark, this American
owner, built for soccer, right?
To watch, I don't know, the Fall
River Marksmen play the Brooklyn
team, whatever it was named at the
time, 'cause team names change,
in front of 10,000-plus fans,
right?
Liron: NYCFC t- doesn't have a stadium.
He's already ahead of NYCFC.
Unbelievable.
It's
matt: It's
Liron: coming.
It's coming, but they don't have it yet.
mark: Right.
100 years ago, right?
And the only team sports, the only
team sport in America who had more
activity, more money flowing, more
viewership, more fans showing up
was baseball, and not every baseball
team was drawing 10,000 fans.
the bottom teams in the baseball,
and some of these venues are
drawing 2,000, 3,000 people.
Well, some of the soccer teams
were beating that every weekend.
Until, until, until a two, two-part
punch, 1928 baseball owner, by the way,
this guy Charles Stoneham, He basically
refused the teams that were in the ASL
from joining the Open Cup, 'cause the
Open Cup was always scheduled and drew
fans and money and all this stuff away
from what was going on in their league.
So the baseball guy said, "Listen,
we're not gonna join the Open
Cup, and if you join that cup,
we're gonna fine you $1,000,"
Liron: But the Open Cup
is a soccer tournament
mark: but it was run by USSF.
matt: I could almost clo- close,
close my eyes and ears and, and
replace this with MLS and USL.
Liron: Exactly.
mark: What's funny is we keep
slipping on the same banana
peel, the same banana peel, okay?
I mean, we've gotten a lot better, but
yeah, it's history repeating itself.
Anyway, they had this bad soccer war
that siphoned off fans, rival leagues.
Never a good idea to start rival
league in the eighth year of
a nascent professional league.
And then even if that hadn't happened,
the Great Depression, of course, which is
a worldwide event, but hit the Americans
hardest, particularly blue-collar
Americans, that basically just came
down like a ton of bricks collectively
on our heads in, the fall of 1929,
So it died.
So it's one of those what if stories.
What if we didn't have this one-two punch,
and the Americans just could've gotten
in there in the '30s with this wonderful
league that was definitely on an upswing?
But we'll never know
matt: Take, take us to,
to Bethlehem, Fall River.
you think of the players who
have come out of Kearny, from
Liron: Claudio
matt: to Gregg Berhalter to John Harkes,
and the list goes on, Tony Meola.
What, what made clubs that were
businesses, employer teams,
immigrant homes, public gathering
places into cultural institutions?
And what can we learn and apply to the
US system today that's maybe missing?
mark: Yeah.
I mean, the quick and dirty of
it for me is this concept called
total immersion, what do these
immigrant groups have in common?
Okay.
They had an interest in association
football, soccer, right?
It was already in their blood because
their dads and their moms were playing it.
They talked about it, and they
played it, and they went to work,
and then they talked about it.
you had a number of working men and
women, blue-collar for the most part,
that were connected to towns that were
surrounding and supporting factories
What was the team that
played for the local company?
It was a soccer team that the pump-
the company was pumping money and
buying their jerseys, paying for
them to play, in many cases, paying
the best players under the table.
So it created a culture
that we talk about.
Now, the challenge, of course, is, well,
if you want to flash forward to 2026, you
cannot recreate that across the country.
But the people that I've talked to said
you don't need in a, in a country, if a
country of 325 million people, you don't
need 300 million people following soccer.
You don't need 100 million.
We're doing just fine
between 60 and 80 million.
You need nodes and environments
that are recreating the love for
the game and the dream and have
some pipeline to professional play.
where you've seen soccer grow and do
well, St. Louis, supported by churches,
communities, parents who care about
the game or obsessed about the game.
Okay, you take any of the
nodes we just talked about.
What do they have?
They have certain elements in common,
which are parents and communities
caring deeply about the sport
Liron: Like how would you
define that in your eyes what
a total immer- immersion is?
mark: I think for me, in
America, the total immersion
can't just be about soccer.
In the last chapter of the book, I tell
this anecdote, Imagine two academies.
You have one soccer place where
they have the best coaches.
They're all Pep Guardiolas,
if you can imagine that.
is the best soccer coach at what he
or she does for those 90 minutes, 100
minutes a day, and then comes out and
chooses the best players for the weekend
games and plays kids and coaches kids.
Just the best.
Not one of them, but
But after the practice is over, the kids
get in the car, they go home, they shower,
they do some homework, they get on their
f- their social media stuff, and they do
whatever they're doing with their kids.
And in the morning they get
up and they go to a school.
The school doesn't have to be imagined.
It's the s- high school you went to, Matt.
Liron, it's the school you went to.
It's a school that I went to, where
soccer is never even mentioned.
You're just at a normal high school.
And then you know what?
You get back in your car, your dad's
car, or your mom's car at 3:30 and
you head out of town to get your 90
minutes with the best coach in the
tri-state area, and then 90 minutes later
you're back to your normal existence.
What I'm saying that the Union figures
out how does it do is you create an
entire environment from sun up to sun
down, they're not the best in the world.
But like, they've created an
environment that allows the total
immersive environment to u- to, and
they know that the college dream is
there 'cause they can see where all
the other kids are going, and they're
having tremendous success in college.
And then they see the other pro
branch, which is narrower, but
they're having tremendous success.
They feel awesome, some of them, even
if they're getting very little playing
time, because there's still a way to
feel good about what they're doing.
a remarkable place
matt: Mark, there's a lack of institutions
like YSC in this country, and what
we're seeing pop up is these centers
of excellence where kids are going,
they're training during the day.
They're actually dropping out of
whatever school they were going to,
independent school, public school,
charter school, all of the above, right?
So they're training during the day.
They're then putting on headphones, and
they're doing online classes, do you
have concerns with it as an educator?
How do you think about it?
mark: As a parent, and with all due
respect for parents who find that
that is the best option for them
under their circumstances, right?
First off, It's a tough
predicament to be in.
But I'm telling you guys as an
educator, I would never do it for my
son, There's nothing that's gonna do
better than having Brendan Sullivan
in his history class teaching the
way that Brendan teaches my kid.
And then 40 minutes after
Brendan, they come into my class.
I'm sorry.
I am good at what I do.
I can get kids to write.
I cannot get them to write well if I
teach them digitally five days a week.
It's just virtually impossible for me.
The way I teach, they have to be
in the building, they have to be in
front of me, they have to be writing.
It's not perhaps horrible, but it's
not comparable to a school, brick and
mortar with real people, real stories.
Liron: my son's not in Philly.
it's a, it's a unique academy, and your
total immersion theory is great, but it,
it requires enormous amount of things
to go right in the right place, in the
right time for that to actually succeed.
And now my son is starting high school.
I'm already getting pushback
from the school on absentees, and
we're having to struggle for that.
So already the system is not there to
support Him as a person, and there's many,
many, many more, and we can't afford to do
that, that certain total immersion thing.
So you're, you're starting to feel that
you're a little left behind and you're,
I don't wanna say look for shortcuts,
but you're looking for e-every possible
way to kinda keep up with the Joneses.
And it is, it is incredibly
difficult environment.
mark: Okay.
I think the parents that are in that
predicament, it's a horrible predicament
to be in I know I'm repeating it, but
your only educational option therefore
has to be some type of ad hoc thing
that works fairly well, but it's not
the same as a brick-and-mortar school.
Now there's a big but, and I'm
teaching the SAT for my kids.
Every time someone puts a
but, it, it's very important.
Pay attention to the transition.
The bill- the millionaires and
billionaires who've done a great
job in American soccer building
soccer-specific stadiums, do better.
You guys have a lot of money, and it's,
it's expensive to a lot of people,
but running a school and opening
a school and figuring how to do it
is not that expensive for you guys.
Don't tell me you need 30 teams.
You have to build a school
or use an existing school
and throw 100 grand at them.
There are ways to do this.
You could throw 100 or two… I mean,
I haven't thought about this, that,
You can't tell me you can't go to a
great independent school and say, "I'm
gonna give you guys a half a million
dollars a year, and you're gonna educate
somehow these 80 kids." come on, guys.
You have a model that's working.
matt: and there is an ROI, both,
both in actual dollars, but also
in the good that goes into it.
that, th- w- from a k- where, where a
kid comes from an environment that isn't
great and even if they don't become a
pro, they end up going to college, they
become great people in our society, right?
and maybe they become coaches,
maybe they become scouts.
So I, I, I agree with you.
I think that there's a lot of room
for us to progress, and it's a,
it's a difficult position, I think,
And look, we talked about
this with Luis Robles.
The high school dilemma is a real issue
mark: yeah, it is.
It's tough, man
matt: and, I think a lot of these schools,
whether they're independent schools
and supposedly prep schools, right?
Or, or, or, or they're public schools,
if your kid isn't playing a sport
and contributing to the school, then
they look at it as a distraction.
and are gonna actually create an
opportunity that's greater for
them to go to a better university.
mark: You can't tell me that rich guys,
can't figure out a way to solve the
educational, not the soccer side, the
educational part for your zip code.
Come on, man.
We can do this if you wanna win.
I'm sorry to do it, I don't wanna make
it all about the union, 'cause it's
far from perfect, but if 10 MLS teams
figured out how to collect highly
talented individuals and solve for
the educational piece, don't tell me
that that's not gonna make a material
difference in, in our win-loss record
at the international level, changing
kids' lives, and it's actually gonna make
those millionaires money in the long run.
It has to, eventually
Liron: You, you definitely, and
you're clear here, you have a vision
about US soccer and its future,
And Matt and I had, the
COO of US Soccer here.
We had, uh, MLS NEXT here.
Can you talk a little bit what your
vision as a historian is of what
the future should be of US Soccer?
mark: with all due respect to
the federation that has made
giant strides in many different
ways over the last 10 years.
Bravo, guys.
I mean, a lot of the dumb things that
we've done, we're doing less dumb
and we're getting smarter, right?
You guys have gotta get behind
the MLS franchises and the USL
Guys, where are the pro teams?
Like, they're in the MLS.
There's 30 of them last time I checked.
Where is the USL going, right?
The USL has some great teams,
some great ownership groups who
care about youth development.
Why is the USSF not partnering
with all these nodes that
care about youth development,
matt: my, my sense is, at least with this
current administration, that they want to.
they're attempting to.
it's a lot to get your arms around,
and if you ultimately don't control
it, how do you ultimately influence
it?
And I th- I think that's what they
are trying to figure out how to do
and to partner, but if you don't
partner, it's never gonna happen.
mark: Where are the better players?
Where are the better players?
They're in the MLS academies
It's a statistical fact.
And some USL clubs, right?
15 years ago maybe, 20 years ago
definitely, you could say that we're
missing a lot of guys and teenagers.
You could say that with a straight face.
You can't say it anymore.
What, what the USSF should do is work
on the, the Zone 1 they call, or,
like, youth development, I think.
It's, like, the, the digits 5 through 12.
That's where the USSF can actually help
because no MLS team goes that young.
Liron: Maybe they should
all read your book.
Maybe they should all read
that book behind you no one can
blame Mark for not having fire.
Mark, the book reads like that, and
it's… what it left me with is this
idea of culture, that, that culture is
so important, and you, you've touched
on it so many times in the book,
and I can see it now i- in you when
we're face to face, is this, nobody
can tell you that Americans don't
have soccer cultures and the, and the
hard drive to win and be great at it,
because no one can take that away.
I cannot stress enough to all of our
listeners to read it or listen to it.
It's, it's, it really gets
you… It gets you frustrated.
It's a frustrating read sometimes, but
it, the overall just gets you pumped up.
I think there's a, there's a, a
forward by, by, Tim Howard, right?
And he's just incredibly enthusiastic.
Usually we thank people for their time.
I just wanna thank you for this
amazing document and, and effort
and the gift you gave us all, so.
mark: Well, thank you.
And just to underscore, man, thanks to
all the dads and moms and the sons and
daughters who are playing the beautiful
game and, and all their journey, right?
And how important the
coaches are for all of us.
And we just hope that our sons
or daughters gets a series of
coaches that help our kids get
better and experience confidence.
That's what it's all about.
And what a beautiful thing it is
to play the game and realize the
importance of teamwork and then
scoring goals and camaraderie.
Once you- it gets in your blood, you
share it for your entire life's journey.
And what's so wonderful about my
experience writing the book is
you realize that there's so many
American people of all walks of
life and nationalities really, and
ethnicities and geographic regions
who share the passion for the sport.
And it is a growing tent, and we are
big in number, and we have nothing
to be embarrassed about or shy about
Liron: we had a, a guest Ted Kroeten,
who wrote a book called The Talent
Thief, he says this one line, he
goes, "At the end of the day, we
just love to see our kids play."
mark: Yes, right
Liron: that's just really
what, what this is about.
So thank you again, my friend.
this has been incredibly
enlightening, and can't wait for
a revisit on the second edition.
matt: That was amazing.
Thanks, Mark.
A Bethlehem Steel wow.
You in this Bethlehem Steel.
Before you change your child's school for soccer, ask
what the education will actually look like.
What's the outcome you're looking to achieve?
Who's teaching?
Who notices when your kid falls behind?
Mark described teachers at YSC, who
care about the work in their classrooms, regardless of how many minutes a
kid played on Saturday.
And when he talks about a player who might not turn pro, he
says, you're college bound, and you're still important.
The last part matters.
Your place is the in the school shouldn't depend
on your place in the team.
Yeah, and um, you said it.
We said it to Mark.
boys are starting high school, tons of stress over
absences already, trying to figure out what the formula is.
And then all of a sudden Mark goes and he describes this wonderful day
where training in classes and everything all fits together and I'm going,
okay, Mark, yeah, that's a great story, but my son's not in Philly Union.
And I just don't know how to get that set up and bring it home without
losing control or putting a misdirection.
And I know a lot of parents are trying to make very difficult decisions about this right now.
Which is why Mark's challenge goes beyond parents.
You have a model that's working.
He's asking the people investing in soccer to take education
seriously enough to build it into the plan.
You can debate how easily the Philadelphia
model can be repeated.
He works there.
His son goes there and he knows it's an unusual environment.
But asking clubs to work with schools is a reasonable place to
start, and asking schools to work with clubs.
Maybe also a reasonable place to start.
Parents shouldn't have to negotiate every part of this alone.
Yeah, and as you do so well through these 40
odd episodes, you always try to move the interviews along while I get hung up
on these small details, and here I just couldn't let go.
1920s, US soccer, Archie Stark, again, Bethlehem Steel.
I think it's just this idea of history of soccer in this country.
There's a moment of pride in a moment to say, you know what?
It's it's, maybe this is our watershed moment now.
Maybe we're rebuilding that in culture right now.
Well, look, it's the genius of you, Liron.
You a storyteller.
You love this stuff and you did manage to turn most of
your questions into three.
Well, you stressed me out because you said he was an English teacher.
So I thought, you know, we'd all appreciate the extra work, but
those stories changed how I
see soccer here, families, communities, the people who cared
all along the way, way before us, and we
keep asking, when will America have the new culture?
So just read these stories and look at how much of
our own family life fits in this new puzzle.
And think about what our kids hear us say about it.
Mark has very little patience for people dismissing MLS,
particularly when their kids want to play in it or have a dream.
We can question decisions and expect better while still
giving our kids something here to be excited about.
That applies at home too.
His approach to the car ride won't suit every family.
His qualification was, you have to know your kid.
Don't copy another dad's intensity without understanding the
relationship behind it.
That was amazing.
Matt.
I felt so much better.
That was that was good.
And just, you know, for all of us to put in perspective, Mark
did change his career.
He changed it because he was missing his son's games.
I mean, we can all relate to that, right?
And you asked him a question.
He said, you asked him about the car ride home and he said it was the best part of my day, man.
And for all these arguments and leagues and pathway,
there's a dad who wanted more time with his kid
and what else?
Chapeau.
Thank you, Mark.
The book is American soccer nation.
All of you read it.
Be proud.
And if this episode sounds like some conversation your family's having,
shared with another parent, like subscribe, help us keep this going.
Matt, this is Chasing the Game, youth soccer in America,
the culture episode.
Goodbye, Liron.
Bye man.