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A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Speaker A: Welcome to Freaks and Creeks, a Dawson's Creek podcast. The show where four millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series of the Fresh Perspective week to week and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Speaker B: I'm Stella.
Speaker C: I'm Mallory.
Speaker D: And I am James. And this week we're going to be talking about season two, episode three alternative lifestyles. But I believe we have some capeside correspondence this week.
Speaker C: Indeed we do. This week we received a wonderful email from a fan of the pod since day one, Chris. Chris says, it's incredible to realize that you are shedding some new insights into a show I've watched more times than I care to admit. And I'm not talking about your vampire theory, which I wholeheartedly believe after so much evidence about it, you are bringing a fresh breath to us all and I love to discuss your ideas and opinions with other fans when a new episode is uploaded. Keep this fantastic podcast coming. I will continue laughing with you and learning things I didn't know I needed to learn about my all favorite series.
Speaker D: Wow.
Speaker C: And I also want to note, Chris mentioned that when most people within the fandom, uh, refer to the quote core four, they aren't including Dawson in it. So I'm super curious to find out how the group evolves and what that means.
Speaker A: Mitch.
Speaker B: Sorry. I also wonder if it's like it is talking about it does include Dawson, but he's actually just not a part of I don't think he's executed. I don't know if someone actually replaces him.
Speaker C: You think they mean by that? They mean that he's just a core four, but like, no one he's on the outside. I wonder. Maybe I wonder.
Speaker B: Yeah, it could that's my theory.
Speaker D: I wonder.
Speaker B: Could be stupid.
Speaker C: But no, I like that theory.
Speaker A: No one's thought is stupid. I think he gets murdered at the end of season two.
Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: It's a very Ned Stark game of spoilers for Game of Thrones. Ned Stark dies at the end of season one and it's going to be a very similar scene. We're going to have Dawson's son, uh, in the crowd being like, where is he? Where is he? And then the royalty of Pacey and, uh, Andy, they'll chop, uh, Dawson's head off.
Speaker D: Wow.
Speaker A: On a stage.
Speaker B: I love to see it.
Speaker D: There's going to be a lot of in universe time in season two then.
Speaker A: Because a lot of time jumps.
Speaker D: He doesn't have a kid yet, but maybe he will. I think that we should actually encourage people to do a Freaks and Creeks relisten podcast going off of Chris's email, chris says that they like to talk about the episode with all their friends, record that conversation and put it out.
Speaker B: And then we listen to that.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker D: And then a response to the response.
Speaker B: To the response podcast never ends.
Speaker D: Yes, those mirrors.
Speaker B: So also, we got our first ever gift.
Speaker D: Oh, boy.
Speaker B: Not that we like I was never anticipating anyone to give us a gift.
Speaker D: I was very disappointed it took this long.
Speaker B: Very, um, exciting friend of the show, Delaney, got us a very sweet E T stuffed animal doll. Like, exactly like one of the ones that Dawson has. You can see we'll post a photo from the show, and then we'll post photos of us, uh, with Et. We just did a little mini photo shoot, um, for you all. Yeah, we got to do a group.
Speaker A: One, um, and then not say for work.
Speaker D: Sexy one that'll be on our only fans.
Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of podcasts out there have ah, patreons. We have an only fans.
Speaker B: Can you imagine? Um, so thank you so much. Delaney so sweet and thoughtful and really, sincerely made me emotional. I m was like, oh my god, that is so kind.
Speaker D: Really complements the recording room. I think it's going to bring a lot of Dawson's Creek energy.
Speaker B: Yeah. And just before we started recording, we actually talked about starting to get some hook posters, maybe just like, start making this room. Dawson room.
Speaker D: Going to get a canoe, bookshelf.
Speaker A: Yeah, we're going to have to make sure that James and I exercise a lot so we get that male sweat smell.
Speaker D: Yes, that we know. Dawson's room smells like stinky in here.
Speaker B: Mannequin heads.
Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. I like that.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker D: I have to find some little neighborhood girl to lock in the closet, I guess. Okay.
Speaker B: Get a ladder.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, I want to shout out Delaney's Instagram. Um, she does this really cool photography. Um, she has a photography account of, like, really cool artsy food stuff. You, um, can find her at Delaney's. Food photos. I'm going to spell it out for you because it is a complicated one. Delaney is spelled D as in dog. E-L-A-N-M-E-Y-I know she loves dogs. S-P-H-O-O-D-F-O-T-O-S. Can you spell that again? Delaney's. Food, photos, everyone. We'll put it on the count.
Speaker C: I never noticed she did the PH and then the F. Yeah, me either.
Speaker B: Until I was writing it out. Oh, boy.
Speaker D: That's cool. Interesting.
Speaker B: Um, check her out. She's cool. She's a cool lady.
Speaker D: Yeah. Uh, that account is really, really cool. The photos are beautiful, and, um, you will enjoy them. And you'll want to eat your phone.
Speaker B: Exactly. Lastly, we also got another email from a dear friend, Haley. She is, um, going back and starting season one. And she messaged us about the Breakfast Club episode. And she had some interesting insights. So she says, Breakfast Club is super nostalgic and overdone to us in 2023 because it came out so long ago and has been done to death in so many ways since it came out 38 years ago in 1985. My hot take is that in 1998, while still not new, Breakfast Club was arguably newer and hadn't been reiterated to the point that it is today. So maybe directly referencing it was more of a current pop reference and less of being lazy and using a framework that is overdone in modern perspective.
Speaker D: Totally.
Speaker C: That makes sense.
Speaker B: Yeah, I thought that was an interesting take and, um, really appreciate your thoughts and insights, Haley.
Speaker D: Yeah, it's a very good point. I think it's one of those things that we, um, are at the mercy of. Right. 25 years later, we're used to the popular culture we have today. It's hard to kind of put ourselves back in that time period when that may have been newer or fresher, but that's a really good point. Do we have any more capex?
Speaker B: No, I think that was a lot, though. I mean, last week, so much.
Speaker C: Fans really appreciate it coming.
Speaker D: Yeah. Thanks, everybody. Well, I guess without further ado, we should just go ahead and start jumping into the episode, huh?
Speaker B: Let's do it.
Speaker D: So, as mentioned, we are talking about episode three, alternative lifestyles. This episode was first released on October 21 of 1998. And I have some fun facts about October 21. I'm ready for you all. You know what the number one song in America was? It was the first night by Monica again. Yeah. Still raining from last week. And the number one movie. I did tease this. I wonder if anybody remembers. Uh, it's pleasantville. Oh, man, I love pleasantville. Unironically still to this day. It's a movie that I enjoy. Um, and I have one little fact that I've locked away in my mind for Pleasantville. Pleasantville, for those who don't remember it's toby Maguire. Right?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker D: Toby Maguire is transported back in time through his television to the set of Pleasantville. It's like 1950s perfect Town and the whole Reese Wetherspoon, a whole bunch. It's a great cast, honestly. Um, the whole movie is in black and white, however, and it's really kind of crazy and cool. It's like that silver black and white of 1950s TV. And interestingly enough, that was all done, um, uh, practically. They actually, uh, painted everybody silver for that movie. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Everybody died after the movie. So interestingly. Just like in Goldfinger, that James Bond movie where that lady died, everybody died. The people that we see today who are impersonating Toby Maguire and all those people, they're clones.
Speaker A: I was going to say the CGI in Spiderman One through three with Toby Maguire unreal to make Toby Maguire look alive again.
Speaker D: I know, it's crazy. A lot of people don't know that. So that's what you come to this show for. You're welcome, everybody. So, uh, the synopsis for this episode is a class assignment. Gives Jen a chance to win Beck Dawson as Pacey learns the truth about Andy's wealth. And boy, this episode really has a little bit of everything we get a celebrity cameo. Oh my God, I was so excited to see that. I can't wait to talk about that later. We get a little bit of class warfare and we get questionable decisions from literally every single character in this episode. It's written by Kevin Williamson and of course, Mike White, our good good buddy, and directed by David Semmel.
Speaker A: Was it written by Kevin Williamson?
Speaker D: He is credited as writing this on IMDb, but he's not credited in the credits, so I believe he probably had little to do with the actual writing.
Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, so IMDb is, uh, user done and what happens is it gets logged on there because Williamson is an executive producer. Sure. I feel like at this point Williamson is not doing anything with show.
Speaker D: Yeah, I wonder diehard fans right in. I'm sure you already are. I can hear the keystrokes through my headphones.
Speaker B: I don't know if this is a really stupid question. Is there something else that's like IMDb that is not user based, that's more accurate?
Speaker A: No, I mean, there's like no official website that takes official information. Everything is like user generated, so you have to take everything with a grain of salt. That's why IMDb trivia is the worst place on earth.
Speaker D: Oh, I love it so good. I love the goofs and trivia and it's like if you look closely, somebody blinks like fuck though. That's crazy. You can't believe that.
Speaker A: Even better is like when it's ah like something where it has like a large fan base that are a bunch of fucking neck beards. One of them is like for The Shining. It'll be like if you notice there's a lot of goofs, but these were done on purpose because Kubrick is a mastermind and wanted to manipulate the audience. Or he's a human being.
Speaker D: Yeah, he's flawed just like everybody else. Right? No, everything is intentional. Well, anybody have any thoughts before we get into the chunky chunky act? One summary.
Speaker A: This is my favorite episode of the series so far. Really?
Speaker D: About it?
Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
Speaker D: Holy shit.
Speaker C: Wow.
Speaker D: That's strong words coming from you, Cody.
Speaker A: Everyone knows I'm a strong man.
Speaker B: Let's get into it.
Speaker D: Let's do it.
Speaker A: Our episode opens with Mitch pulling down Joey's sex ladder outside the Leary house and giving Dawson the no boning under my roof speech to which Dawson argues against as he is a quote unquote sexual being who will inevitably be mayor of Poundtown. In his room alone, Joey pops out of the closet where she has been hiding the whole time, only to be caught red handed by Mitch the next day. The argument still ensues before Dawson heads to school. At this point, Gail tells Mitch that she recognizes some of Dawson's argumentative tactics in Mitch reiterating the open marriage plot thread, with Mitch waving the white flag, saying he's willing to drop his arguments for polygamy before class. Bessie tells Joey that due to an oncoming health inspection, joey needs to pop by the ice house to ensure it's clean via mopping. And at school, Abby tries to point out that the school's total hunks to Jen who is still fixated on her fizzled relationship with Dawson much to Abby's exasperated displeasure. In the hallways, Andy asks Pacey for his homework notes before they enter econ class with the core four and some other noticeable characters. There they receive a project entitled Alternative Lifestyles in which they're paired up as couples to write a paper on handling their new socioeconomic and role structure. Those couples being Dawson and Jen, Andy and Pacey abby with a saddler named Kenny all the while Joey gets assigned as a single mother. Later, in the cafeteria, Joey expresses to Dawson that the assignment is triggering as, uh, she doesn't really know what she wants to do with her life. All, uh, while Dawson has a clear vision for his future joey additionally expresses concern over Dawson and Jen being paired up with Dawson telling her there's nothing to worry about.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker D: So much happens in the first act of this episode and I guess just as a brief reminder for those who maybe are jumping into season two randomly in this episode we now summarize the whole act up front and then dive into the scenes. So we're going from the beginning of the episode to the first commercial break there. Um, but this episode continues a trend that I've noticed so far in every episode where we have the main storyline being mirrored in every single sub character relationship. Right? So essentially we got Dawson and Joey. Then we also have Mitch and Gail and we also have Pacey and Andy and then we have Jen, Abby, Dawson, everybody else in that web. But all of these storylines kind of mirror each other in act one. We get everybody getting set up here and I just think this is like a really packed first act.
Speaker A: It sets up everyone nicely and that's one of the things that I think is the strongest aspect of the show or, uh, this episode is the writing. And I mean, again, that's Mike White being Mike White. He's a very strong writer and probably the strongest of the people in this writer's room sorry, other writers room people. Uh, but I love that, uh, like you said, everything mirrors each other and, uh, it's not a bottle episode but this is so structured. There's a beginning and there's an end to it. This isn't just like Fodder used to carry over for other episodes. We get a lesson, we learn the lesson and it's very clean. Like everything is very tightly structured. And I love that everything is for the theme of the episode and there's nothing that feels like extracurricular or fluffy just so they can be carried on until the final twist in the last second. But I love that everything is there for the theme. There's no fat on this episode. Everything is cleanly cut to be what it is.
Speaker C: I love that this is the first episode we didn't start out inside of Dawson's room. Yeah, that was kind of a good change that they wrote in there. We're outside of his room and what.
Speaker D: A dramatic first shot of that ladder just slamming down.
Speaker B: When I press play, I was like, am I in the middle of an episode?
Speaker C: I felt really confused.
Speaker D: I loved it.
Speaker A: Purposely jarring means that we're not into something that we're regularly into.
Speaker B: Um, right off the bat, I have to say, Dawson, I don't know if I just have not noticed this before or if it was like just the shot of him and dad together, but Dawson looked much m bigger to me. He just looked so much more like an adult. Um, I don't know if it was like, also had to do with Costuming or, um, I don't know, styling. To me I was just like, he looks like the same age as Rich.
Speaker C: Yeah, maybe because they're not in his room so he's standing up and kind of posture than he would be in his room.
Speaker D: That's a good point. We haven't seen a whole lot of them, like, standing side by side. Usually Dawson sitting down or he or Mitch is sitting down. Dawson. I think it's getting harder and harder. I mean, I'm getting used to the fact that these are all supposed to be high school kids, but every once in a while to your point. So I'll see Dawson be like, this guy is not fucking 15.
Speaker B: It made me laugh. M a lot. I did want to ask, has anyone I don't think we talked about this last time. Has anyone been walked in on by their parents? They were teenagers.
Speaker D: Like with your your significant other? Yeah, no.
Speaker B: You? Yes. Um, in high school I was a freshman and I was hooking up with a senior. Gross.
Speaker D: What's his name?
Speaker B: And my dad. That sounds I think all our clothes were on, I'm pretty sure, but shout out to Doug. Yeah, shout out to my dad.
Speaker C: Keep his hand over the TV.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: No, but I just remember being so mortified.
Speaker D: Yeah, I would be too. I was fortunate that both my parents were medical professionals, which meant they were basically gone all day, every day and would come home with Taco Bell at night. It was like, yes, Daddy's home or Mommy's home. Give me my tacos.
Speaker A: M. Cody, you, uh, I don't remember. My memory starts every day like a goldfish. Maybe there's something wrong with me. I can't recall. I don't know.
Speaker B: All right, well, thought that was going to be a more exciting question.
Speaker D: Before.
Speaker C: They get caught, though. I noticed, uh, that as Joy is coming out of Dawson's closet it looked like she was wearing one of his buttoned up shirts. Maybe she was like, grabbed from inside his closet or something. I thought that was cute.
Speaker D: I loved this interaction. I wanted more of this. Uh, this is from that same time period. It's Mitch saying something to Dawson.
Speaker A: Dawson, you, uh, can psychologically deconstruct me all you want, but, uh, here's the deal. Parent me, child you. All right.
Speaker D: Parent me, child you. M I love that I want more of this relationship between Mitch and Dawson. This kind of like, quippy, snarky little back and forth between the two of them. I think it's I mean, I think they both give it well, though. That said, I fucking hated Dawson in every interaction that he had with Mitch. This episode, he's so, like, such a shithead.
Speaker B: So smug and that big smile. He was just so, like, I'm a sexual being.
Speaker A: Like, he got one handy and he thinks he's an adult.
Speaker D: Yes. I know how the life works. Okay.
Speaker A: I don't know if, uh, this is me not being a very observant person, but this is the first time I noticed that when they were going up the stairs, there was a lot of artwork themed. Yeah. Uh, kelpie. But then it made me think, like, it always frustrates me when I'm watching Star Trek and everyone's artwork is space themed. It's like, you fucking work in space. Why would you have a painting of space? It's the same thing for Mitch. It's like your whole day is spent dreaming of the kelp. Why do you want to surround yourself with what you work with? It's insane.
Speaker D: He just lives and breathes. Aquatic theme.
Speaker C: Wait, I felt like I was on the Magic school bus. Like, you know that book with the Miss Brizzle in the ocean? I, uh, was like, we're walking through the ocean floor.
Speaker B: Does Mitch have a job right now?
Speaker D: Yeah, working on the restaurant. Yeah, that's his job.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker D: He gets paid, probably. He's not just some perpetual hobby master who's just like, I'm going to get paid one day, hon. I promise.
Speaker A: I mean, this is the fantasy of the 90s, too, where one parent, uh, has to work and they can provide a two story house.
Speaker D: But isn't it cool that we invert that? And it's not the male being the breadwinner, it's Gail being the breadwinner here.
Speaker C: Maybe he's creating sea themed decor and selling it.
Speaker D: I actually have a theory on this that I will this will feed back into an idea I have later. So, Stella, I'm going to ask you to put a pin in that thought. Just stick a thumbtack m into your skull.
Speaker B: Perfect.
Speaker D: All right, great. That'll help us remember. Um, did anybody notice that when Mitch escorts, uh, Joey out of the room, it looks like he is going to throw her down the stairs. He grabs her arms.
Speaker C: So physically, that was very uncomfortable to watch.
Speaker D: Yeah, it's like Lock, you in my closet now, Joey.
Speaker A: You're absolutely correct. But I wonder if we're, uh, just too observant of how fucking ripped Mitch is and his like veiny arms always makes it look like he's flexing. So maybe we're just like vany arms. Like he's going to throw her down a staircase.
Speaker D: Yeah, I was expecting it. I thought we were going to get one of those cool Pratt Falls and like a cool stunt shot. But on that note, about this hallway, I know that we have seen this upper hallway and these stairs before. To your point about all this art.
Speaker B: That we're seeing for the first time.
Speaker D: I don't remember it looking like this at all. And I don't think we've ever got, like a tracking shot while they go up it. I wonder if they changed the set because it just looks totally different than that season one where Joey overhears Gail on the phone.
Speaker C: Those look different.
Speaker D: Looks totally different.
Speaker B: I noticed that, too.
Speaker A: Wonder if it's a different staircase.
Speaker D: They've got two staircases.
Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, that's a huge house.
Speaker A: I did bring up Cubric earlier and talking about The Shining. Maybe it's like the Overlook Hotel is constantly changing to disorient the viewer back.
Speaker D: To our clone theory. This is all just some lab experiment they're testing to see if they'll recall the layout of their home changing.
Speaker B: Um, so we get to see baby Alexander for the first time.
Speaker D: Alexander.
Speaker A: Alexander the first time.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: I think this is a new baby playing Alexander. Yeah, I think this is like it can't be. I mean, actually, it might not be might be the same one.
Speaker B: The way that Bessie is rushing in with him and the way that she's holding him had me very stressed.
Speaker D: Yes. Um, this whole thing makes me stressed.
Speaker C: The handheld camera motion handheld was happening in this scene, which I think is the only scene in this episode that had that. But it definitely heightened that feeling.
Speaker D: God, it was just so hectic. And, um, it made me feel really bad for Bessie and Joey simultaneously. Like, each person here has so much of a burden to shoulder, but they can't possibly shoulder at all, even between the two of them. Makes you really wonder why Bodie is just fucking nonexistent dude.
Speaker B: Okay, we'll talk about that later because I have a big question.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker D: The single career mother. It's just like, what the fuck? Yeah, I wonder if this is the.
Speaker A: Way of writing Bodie out of the show.
Speaker D: But he comes back as a different actor. They recast him.
Speaker C: No, that already happened.
Speaker D: You're right.
Speaker C: He comes back. I thought that.
Speaker D: Anyway, I guess we'll find out. But yeah.
Speaker A: You know how, uh, in a workplace they'll have I mean, this is like the 1950s. They'd have, like, signage. Like, this factory has gone how many ever days without accident? And we should have one of those. But for the show, Ah has gone on how many episodes without.
Speaker D: Um, moving on a little bit here. When Dawson comes downstairs and Mitch is waiting for him, I like, this line.
Speaker A: Is that the sexual being himself?
Speaker D: No. M, but I'm sure you're going to tell me. Tell me that when you were my age, you weren't sneaking around and making out with girls in the backs of.
Speaker A: Cars and movie theaters.
Speaker D: I want that. Except for that last part. That last part can go shit itself and die. But the part where they're joking about the sexual being himself and I know you're going to tell me anyway. I love that. I want that to continue.
Speaker B: Yes. Um, anyone else feel like this didn't really track with Gail calling Mitch manipulative? I thought with the last episode when he brought it up, she seemed relieved almost, the idea of an open marriage. Um, and now she's like she's really not into it, calling him manipulative.
Speaker D: I do think this plot line that we get between Mitch and Gail is probably the weakest part of the whole episode for me because of a couple of things. But I'm m just going to introduce my problem with it here. Mitch. So basically, after what that clip part, dawson essentially twists Mitch's words around to make it sound like Mitch is trying to spice up my sex life. Do you hear that, mom? Dad's trying to get me laid. Um, and then Mitchell's good impression. Then Mitch, basically, to your point, Stella, that's where Gail says, like father, like son. You both are manipulative when you're trying to get sexual favors. I don't know what the fuck out to say that. But Mitch then drops it and he's like, I don't want to force the issue. It's not a big deal for me. I'm not that interested in this open marriage thing. It was just a thought. Mhm, but then that whole thing just gets thrown out the window in just a few scenes and they quadruple down on this whole thing without blinking an eye. And I'll continue to come back to this, but it's just very confusing to me. And upon rewatching it a couple of times, I'm just like, I think they could have fixed this one just a little bit more if they rewrote these interactions just a tiny bit.
Speaker A: Uh, I don't think this is a perfect episode. Uh, there are two things that I feel like not things. I feel like there must have been two scenes that were deleted. Uh, one between Mitch and Gail that would reinforce why they're going to be doing the open marriage thing and make it more of an idea. Because to your point, it doesn't really make sense how they've transitioned so quickly to agreeing with it. That and then later with Joey meeting up with Laura for the first time, there's no real direct connectivity of she has offhandedly mentions like, oh, my teacher said that I could meet up with you, blah, blah. I wish we had seen something like that because it seems so sudden. Um, but I wonder why they felt so rushed that they would need to kind of cut these things to make it make a little bit more sense. It all makes sense, but it's very quick for us. They're rushing it very fast.
Speaker D: It's convenient, which, of course, everything is convenient in the show. But yeah. At Capeside, um, we get our introductions to some new background characters that I really hope stick around. The football players in the background, trey Harder and Jeff Burdis, or whatever their names are, they rule. They kick ass. I love them.
Speaker B: Wait, that made me just really like what happened to Cliff. Remember he was like the job.
Speaker C: Did he graduate?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So I guess these are like a new job, though.
Speaker C: That's strange.
Speaker D: He did yeah, he's died.
Speaker A: I mean, maybe his film did so good.
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker B: Wait, Cliff. And then what was the other girl's name that we liked?
Speaker D: Uh oh, man.
Speaker B: She's long gone.
Speaker D: She is long gone.
Speaker A: Although we liked.
Speaker D: Best Seat. No.
Speaker C: What's her name?
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker D: We'll get there.
Speaker C: Nelly.
Speaker D: Nelly. There we go. There we go.
Speaker B: We got there.
Speaker D: Uh whoa.
Speaker A: Nelly.
Speaker B: Maybe she and Cliff ran off together.
Speaker C: Probably.
Speaker A: Again, their film did so good. Bought it Sundance.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: This scene with Abby and Jen, I just want to talk about their clothes. Um, Abby's wearing blue velvet flare pants and pretty sure she's wearing a Heart of the Ocean necklace. Yes.
Speaker D: Wow.
Speaker C: It's like this dark blue, like, Heart of the Ocean. And then Jen is in a red paisley mini dress, which gave me DELIA'S vibes. I don't know if you ever remember that magazine. I feel like we've gone from J. Crew to a whole different look for she.
Speaker D: It makes me think of Claire's.
Speaker C: Claire's. Yeah.
Speaker D: Definitely.
Speaker C: Like that more kind of like girly glitter pop. I thought that was fun. I think maybe that style comes from Abby. And maybe it's like mhm Abby.
Speaker D: Definitely. I think we're definitely seeing abigail has quite a negative impact on Jen here throughout this episode. And I really liked Abby's clothes throughout the whole episode. And I fucking hated Jen's outfits in every scene. They were all so just weird. And I don't know if this is I wonder if this is an acting choice from, um, Michelle Williams. But Jen looks physically uncomfortable in most of the clothes that she's wearing. Like, she's very stiff and kind of ah, like a puppet walking around. And I think that's in a deliberate choice. But I don't know.
Speaker A: I feel like the biggest theme of this episode is identity, uh, and who you are versus, uh, who you think you should totally. I mean, this is one of my favorite things to explore in any kind of, like, narrative. Uh, I mean, that's why I'm a David Lynch fan. It's like identity.
Speaker D: Identity.
Speaker A: Like, who are you really? Oh, no. Fox. I think you're totally correct. Because the only person right now in this entire series who is exactly who they are is Abby.
Speaker D: There's no.
Speaker A: Question. She is exactly who she pretends to be and is there is no pretending.
Speaker D: Ah.
Speaker A: Uh, but, yeah, the entire time, Michelle Williams looks, like, so uncomfortable with everything that she's doing, be it her doing barrel rolls on the bed to look sexy or, like, anything in between, kissing, all that stuff. It's, uh, very not who Jen is.
Speaker D: No.
Speaker A: Um, it's totally on point. Also, during the sequence, I love Abby, uh, when she's talking about those, uh, Muslims and she says they're so completely disgusting, it's almost erotic. And then that book ended with her talking about how disgusting Dawson and his group of friends is. So are they sowing the seeds for her to eventually be like, oh, God, am I attracted to Dawson and Pin?
Speaker D: I like that idea. I hope so.
Speaker C: Anyone notice that the kid, like, there's, like, an elementary school age kid that walks by in this scene. It's so out of the blue. Yeah.
Speaker B: I did not know.
Speaker C: Like, a little backpack. And it's definitely a child just in the background.
Speaker D: I feel like this is one of those, like, you watch a video and then somebody's like, did you see the red bouncing ball in the background? And everybody's like, what? No, I did not see an elementary child in the background.
Speaker B: Oh, my God, I'll have to rewatch that.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker D: Weird happy child. Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, did anyone find Andy slightly obnoxious in this next part?
Speaker D: I have some thoughts on that. I did.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: In, um, the hallway where she's asking for notes.
Speaker B: Yeah. I still really like her. They were just like my initial reaction was just like, oh, my God, stop.
Speaker A: Yeah, you're talking about walking to class.
Speaker B: She's like, did you have the notes?
Speaker D: I've got the clip here. It's a little bit of a longer one. Let's take a listen.
Speaker C: Pacey, wait.
Speaker B: Look, I need your help.
Speaker D: Oh, God. Here we go.
Speaker A: Okay, Andy, I'm having a really mellow morning.
Speaker D: I haven't had any car accidents.
Speaker A: I haven't been diagnosed with any terminal defects. I really just like to keep a low pro. So goodbye.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: Look, I'm sure there are a dozen dimwits with highlights and peacocks you'd rather be talking to but you're the only person I know in peacock. So here's the deal.
Speaker C: I actually thought it was an interesting way to explore them getting to know each other because they still don't really know who each other are. And of course, she has no idea that Pacey's a slacker.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: Thought it was an interesting way for her to find that out and then totally.
Speaker D: And then going back to that, she's taking digs at his taste in women. Uh, seems like she's kind of jealous. Um, continuing to be, or at least potentially yes, she's looking for notes, but also she's trying to just stay close to him. Right. Because she maybe has a crush on him without knowing she has a crush on him type thing.
Speaker C: She feels comfortable with him. So he's the one that she would ask for notice.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: I also thought this is really good foreshadowing, uh, for us to we assume that, oh, she's a rich person, so she's like a goodie, like, two shoes. She probably does all of her homework. I love that she's coming in being like, fuck, I didn't do what I needed to do. Can I borrow off of the lacquer? Which is, like, an interesting not a red flag, but, oh, she's not who she's all cracked up to be, but.
Speaker C: Also explains, like, normally she would, but maybe because her life is changing, this time she forgot. So it's definitely a good foreshadow.
Speaker D: And that's where I kind of fell back to on further rewatches of this episode. Her behavior here, I think she's, like, manifesting the anxieties and the stressors that she has from her tumultuous home life that is rapidly changing around her. Right. Like, we get to hear later when Jack tells Pacey about their immediate history. And the reason I think that is because in this moment, andy says something about how if you fall behind one day, before you know it, you're homeless on the street, dirty or whatever.
Speaker C: Big change.
Speaker D: She's clearly worried about their financial situation. Right. So it's so much more about her life than it is just about class. And also about class versus class. Right. Your class in society versus your school class.
Speaker A: Stella, were you annoyed that she, uh, was just bickering at Pacey? And it's just like a continued like, this is her one note, so she just does it over and over again. This is the way they communicate.
Speaker B: Maybe it's getting kind of tired, maybe.
Speaker A: Because I could feel that, too.
Speaker B: I guess, with the way the last episode ended, where we see that really sweet, uh, genuine total connection with them. I, um, know they're still getting to know each other, but it's like, okay. I feel like there was also another scene before that where they were, like, bickering. It's like, I want there to be more, um, evenness between them and for the relationship to grow.
Speaker D: I think I see that.
Speaker A: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, you'd think that they'd get over this by now because we've already had three or this is the third episode. Like, we've already established that this is their way of communicating so we can grow past it. Um, but I don't know.
Speaker D: Yeah. I have a note that I want to bring back in this one. So, Stell, I'm going to ask you to put another thumbtack in your skull. Cool. Thank you. Um, but it has to do with the way Pacey and Andy interact. And I think that there is an interesting inversion in Pacey's character when he interacts with Andy versus when he interacts with other characters. Um, he kind of jokes. He's a very jokey, sarcastic guy. Right. He never takes anything seriously except when he's talking with Andy, he actually kind of initially jokes, but then he's able to take things seriously quite quickly and be vulnerable with her in a way that he isn't vulnerable with anybody else. He's not vulnerable with Dawson, even. So, I think that there's an interesting thing that we see with the way they interact. But to your point, it is very samey, but I feel like it's on purpose. We're supposed to be seeing that this is different for him. Both of these interact or both, his relationship here is different than it is with other people. M speaking of being with other people, the econ assignment, why is it called alternative lifestyles? Is it just because he made one group a same sex couple? Is that literally it? Because I was like, what is the.
Speaker C: Name for a class assignment?
Speaker A: Well, uh, just brainstorming out loud. So alternative lifestyles used to be used as a term to describe gay couples because it's alternative to normalcy, which is heterosexual relationships, um, that are monogamous. But I wonder if Mike White is trying to use that as a play on well, um, let's directly attack what we believe is normalcy and what has been established. Maybe with the core four plus other characters, it's like we're going to use this project to attack their normalcy and what is perceived by everybody. I mean, at least we're seeing the core four through Abby's eyes earlier. They're completely disgusting. Uh, but this is probably everything that they do is established just as much as it is for us as it is with other classmates. They view these people as who they present themselves to be. So maybe that's the only thing that I could see is why it's called alternative lifestyles. If it's more of like a wink from, uh, Mike White for us to start being critical about these relationships and these roles that people have set themselves in stone for to be m interesting. I don't know.
Speaker D: I can see that.
Speaker A: And also there's a great gay joke. But the best thing about this gay joke is that it's not about them being gay, it's about the classroom viewing them as homophobes. And that's why it's funny that they are cast as the gay couple, which I thought was very smart. And subverted the expectations of a 1998 drama for kids.
Speaker D: Like, you'd think that you'd m think that there'd be a gay joke, and not only that, but it would be like a total gay bashing joke. And I think to further your point about subverting expectations, they even go so far as to subvert expectations later when we see these two characters being happy that they were in a same sex couple because they had a good time on their project and they were able to learn each other already. So cool that they did that. I mean, of course Kevin Williamson and Mike White would do something like that, but it's really cool, I thought, to.
Speaker A: See that feels very progressive for 1990. Total.
Speaker D: Definitely math.
Speaker C: Also liked this instructor. He wasn't mean like all the others.
Speaker A: Seemed like a really good teacher. He was really enthusiastic about the project and what his students could actually learn from this.
Speaker D: Totally. I just felt bad for Joey because everybody kind of gets some version of a fantasy life, I would say, except Joey who gets a nightmare life. She gets literally her worst nightmare. But it comes true for her. She has got to be a single career mother, which I've never heard that term before. Is that like a working mom? Is that like the modern equivalent of that? Like you're a single mother with a job? Is that what they're trying to say? Single career mother. Makes it sounds like she's a mother with one job, which isn't that like most people. Yeah, I was just kind of confused by that one. It took me a while.
Speaker B: I thought it was weird too.
Speaker A: Yeah, the terminology, it seems like you're phrasing it strange.
Speaker D: Yeah. Single career single career mother.
Speaker A: Yeah, career single mother.
Speaker D: That would be better. She's a career single mother. She gets paid to be a single mom. Coming this fall.
Speaker C: Did anyone notice that Jen passes a note to Abby? Yeah, note passing. I was there during the class.
Speaker D: What did you guys think about that? Because I have a thought but I want to see what you guys if anybody had a thought on that, I didn't even notice. So it's when, um, mr. Maddox, that's the teacher in the econ class is passing around the hat or whatever with people to pick a partner and then Jen passes Abby the note since you notice it. So I thought maybe that was Jen passing Abby her name so that she could fake pull out Jen's name from the hat so that they would be partners. Mhm, but then Dawson pulls Jen's name first. That's m kind of like what I thought. But then we didn't see that actually play out. Nor did we ever see that note come into play.
Speaker B: Interesting.
Speaker C: Been interesting.
Speaker D: Yeah, I wish we got something because.
Speaker C: Otherwise it's just like I know I wanted more from that. I was like, okay, she's passing a note. What's going to happen? Are they going to get in trouble or like but nothing.
Speaker A: I kind of like it though. It's like a good way to show don't tell. They're like, oh, they're friends that pass notes now. What a jump in their relationship.
Speaker D: Totally. That is a good point. Mhm. And we don't need to get the payoff from that because we tell the story in our head about what that might be. Mhm, very interesting.
Speaker B: I miss passing notes.
Speaker D: Me too.
Speaker A: We can bring it back.
Speaker D: We should start passing notes during M here. The listeners are going to suddenly hear.
Speaker B: Like, did you see what James?
Speaker D: Um, so next we get the cafeteria scene here as they kind of start talking. Sorry. Joey and Dawson are in line and Joey is kind of like, this is such a ridiculous assignment. We'll never get this bleep blue, blue, blue, blue, blah. And Dawson is, like, kind of excited about it. I don't know. Or maybe he's just trying to be positive. I couldn't quite read how he was being.
Speaker B: Honestly, just speaking in general about this episode, I didn't find myself. I thought Dawson was kind of being smug and annoying in the beginning, but overall, he just seemed very bright and positive and pretty consistent throughout. And I didn't mind him this episode.
Speaker C: On that note, I kind of reviewed all the scenes last night because I was like, how much of the episode was Dawson? And he wasn't really in that much of it.
Speaker D: Interesting.
Speaker C: And, like, you're saying the parts that he was in were not like he's been before, which is kind of annoying or immature. It was more like he was positive. Notice that too. He took a backseat, maybe.
Speaker B: Um, I wonder if he's just, like, in a good spot right now and he's, like, really happy where things are at with Joey. He seems really confident.
Speaker A: Yeah, he's confident. And with that confidence comes a lot of emotional maturity. Like, later on when we have Jen throwing herself at him, there's two ways he could have reacted, right? Like, he could have screamed at her. Uh, or I guess three ways, right? He could have screamed at her, been like, get the fuck out of my room. What the fuck are you doing? Like, losing his mind.
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker A: The other version of that is he could just obviously give in. They could have slept with one another, whatever. But he chooses is, um, basically, like, politeness and just kind of being like, oh, why do you feel that you need to do this? What is wrong? There's something wrong. And really engaging with her on a level that wasn't offensive to her. He didn't put her down. It was more of like, this feels really off for you and I'm really sorry. What's really going on here? Which I don't know. Would this have been the same Dawson from season one going through this? I feel like it had been totally different.
Speaker D: I agree.
Speaker C: And in fact, they're the only couple that didn't fight during the process of this project, the school project. Like, the two of them didn't he didn't like you're saying he didn't cause any, like, any friction between them like the other couples had.
Speaker D: I like that read of it, that he has this kind of newfound confidence or that he's now comfortable where he maybe has been second guessing himself or his place in Capeside. And now that he has this kind of relationship with Joey or whatever that he's able to be this character. But I just don't know. I think James Vanderbie gives a good performance in this episode, or they gave him good direction, because I think there's definitely moments where you can see him grappling with Jen, giving him all this attention and advances on him, but then you can also clearly see that he is repelled by it at the same time and that he's locked in on Joey. So it feels a very, I would say like a pretty convincing performance of what a 15 year old boy like Dawson would do if they found themselves in this situation.
Speaker A: You can really see the wheel turning in his head. He does very good eye acting in this. You can see, uh, the emotions going on in his brain when all this is happening. And for the first time it seems like Dawson's actually thinking before he speaks.
Speaker D: Yes, finally maturing and everything isn't just being related back to Dawson and Dawson's experience, which I think was the most refreshing part about this episode is to your point, Cody, he's not being like, well, Jen, what are you doing to me? Don't you realize me and Joey are good now or whatever. He's instead being like, Jen, what's going on? Or Joey, this could be good, you should try. He's not just relating it back to himself.
Speaker A: M maybe I'm, uh, grasping at straws here and over analyzing, but once again, at the beginning when Joey is coming out of the closet, it's the closet door that has the Hook poster on it. And we've talked before about how Hook is the Peter Pan syndrome, being obsessed with childhood, not wanting to grow up, and the fact that she's still coming out of that and being caught by Mitch. Is this are we observing some kind of foreshadowing that Dawson might soon realize that he's like tying to his past, which was not good, and needs to move forward in some way and Mitch being the great watcher the father figure. Um, I don't know, is this why.
Speaker C: The elementary school child was walking away.
Speaker D: In the background of that scene? Speaking of lynch, like a Lynchian character in the background who's literally representing the.
Speaker C: Theme away from Jen.
Speaker D: Yeah, and to your point, Cody, jen right now is in this, she's kind of trying to reinvent herself, but the version of herself that she is reinventing or trying to reinvent into is a much more adult version. She's not just trying to be like another teen or something like that, she's dressing much more mature, juxtapose that with Joey, who is certainly changing her wardrobe, but she still is more or less dressing like kid Joey coming out of the closet, hiding in there for safety or whatever.
Speaker A: Interesting, in the cafeteria, uh, the receipt sound effect from uh, the thing is the same receipt sound effect as uh, the black smoke monster from Lost.
Speaker D: Oh, wow, I wish I had even noticed that.
Speaker A: I've been rewatching a lot of Lost lately, so I had Lost on the mind when I was watching this and I was like, oh, same sound effect.
Speaker D: What if the smoke monster in Lost is the ghost of the cash register in Dawson Street cafeteria?
Speaker A: I believe it.
Speaker C: My goodness.
Speaker D: It goes so much deeper than we ever could have imagined.
Speaker A: We have to go back.
Speaker D: Speaking of going back, it's time for us to take our very, very first break of the episode. We'll see you on the other side.
Speaker A: And we're back in the cafeteria. That is where Abby suggests that Jen should try to seduce Dawson while they work on their project, despite his relationship with Joey. And later that day, while they work on budgeting for their fake family, jen does just that. She inches closer and closer to Dawson and tries to lure him in by describing how nothing has really changed between them. This gives our titular hero some, um, icky feelings and he dips. Elsewhere, we see Pacey and Andy playfully bickering over their project budgeting with Pacey making the purchase of a sports car an absolute must. Meanwhile, at the Ice House, joey accost Jack for mopping incorrectly and explains the project to Bessie. When Bessie offers her personal life as advice, joey sadly shuts her down and she says she'll find someone more successful to learn from. At the Leary household, Gail gets dropped off by a male coworker which sets off alarm bells in Mitch's mind. This brings up the open marriage conversation once again and Mitch proclaims that they shouldn't make Thursdays their date night to which they can see other people.
Speaker B: Oh, boy.
Speaker D: Um, Abby, you got mop.
Speaker B: Yeah, can't wait to talk about that.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, Abby is being a main girl, um, really disappointed in Jen for just kind of letting her talk to Kenny like that. Yeah, that was sad. But also multiple times. Yeah, multiple times. And then at one point, Jen's like, laughing.
Speaker C: Fucker annoying.
Speaker A: Uh, again, is this playing into Jen being like, this is the character that I'm performing as?
Speaker B: Yeah, it seemed really forced. Like, it didn't seem like she was.
Speaker D: Really laughing the first time it seems like she's uncomfortable. And then the second time, it's like, well, this is what I got to do kind of thing.
Speaker B: It's weird. Um, but I really liked that Abby in that first scene back. Uh, Abby calls it the New York city regression. He's like, Jen, we need to see that New York City regression. And, um, that's what we were talking about last time, totally being a regression.
Speaker D: Yeah. And this is also where Abby has this incredible line.
Speaker C: Take a look at him. He's totally into Joey. He's in love with her.
Speaker B: He's a 15 year old boy. He doesn't know what love is. All he does know is that he goes to sleep every night jerking is GERKEN.
Speaker C: And he wakes up every morning humping his mattress.
Speaker B: Jerkin is gerkin.
Speaker C: We're dipstick and gun. Yes, all of those in one scene.
Speaker D: So the gun is the phallus is now confirmed. We now know the dipstick is the gerkin. Yeah, but there's this whole, like, serial killers use the gun because it's like the penis. Now we know for sure. Unequivocally. It's been confirmed. Thank you.
Speaker B: Um, for you gentlemen, have you ever referred to your penis as a gerkin?
Speaker D: Every day. Yeah.
Speaker A: I was really disappointed when the Portland pickles decided the name the Portland pickles, because I'm like, well, now I'm just going to sound like too much of a baseball fan if I'm referring to myself as jerk and the gurkin.
Speaker D: Yeah. What a name for, uh, your dingle dangle.
Speaker A: Which is the official Latin phrase, of course.
Speaker B: Yes, but sorry, going back, um, it's interesting to me that Abby is calling it this. Regret, she is very smart enough to pick up that this is, like, her old behavior and that she's kind of, like, inciting Jen to continue that.
Speaker D: Yeah. Do we think that Abby is doing this altruistically or for nefarious purposes? Because I can't help but think that Abby is doing this to make Jen look like a slut, quote, unquote, so that Jen gets taken down a peg and Abby has some culture, some social cachet because she took down Jen.
Speaker B: I feel like that's not it, because it seems like she does care about Jen, but it just doesn't seem like.
Speaker C: I think it's a mix. Yeah, it's like a mix of things to me. I don't know.
Speaker B: It's hard to figure out her motivation.
Speaker A: Well, it feels, uh I don't think Abby is that I don't want to use the word manipulative, but I don't think she's playing 3D chess here. I think for her, it's just like, oh, it sounds like Jen used to be really fucking in the way that I think people are cool. And then she became a total snooze when she started hanging out with Dawson. So I want her to be cool again. I want her to be the person that she was in New York. If she's calling that regression, I mean, maybe it's a double entendre of being like, this is the person you are not and you never were. This is a character that you had been performing as back then, but also at the same time, it was cool when you were doing that. Please.
Speaker C: We know that Abby thinks it's cool because in last episode, she was like, oh, I wish I could go to New York and do these things that you did. So to her, maybe she knows that to Janet's, uh, regression. But for Abby, it's, like, exciting, right?
Speaker B: Yeah. And I kind of wonder if it's just, like, a way for them to have a connection that feels fulfilling in some way or just like, I wonder if Abby knows that Jen is going through a hard time, um, and she's trying to create some type of fun for them.
Speaker D: Totally.
Speaker B: Um, or not. Maybe not.
Speaker D: Yeah, I know. I mean, I've been kind of trying to play back their friendship in my mind to see if there was ever a point, because I know that she talked about in earlier in the season I've done and said things that you could never imagine in New York. But that's almost in a way to get Abby off of her back rather than as a way to give her some context into what she's running away from. And I think that what we're kind of seeing is the dangers of enablers, right? If you only have people who think of you as fun, right, and they just want you to have fun, and they're not really thinking of your best interest at heart. I know they're teenagers, but Abby really should be thinking about why maybe Jen left New York and is here in Capeside and what maybe that might mean for her and what she needs. And instead, all she's thinking is, like, you need to be crazy, and you need to go have fun and get drunk and have sex with him. Who cares?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: And in this act this act is bookended by Jen failing to seduce Dawson. That's the last scene in this act, actually. So there's that outcome of it not.
Speaker D: Working, and it doesn't work when she is kind of approaching it from a more measured standpoint. So what does she do next? Goes a little bit heavier into it.
Speaker A: Okay, so, uh, I'm thinking from this perspective, uh, I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober for five and a half years now. And early in my sobriety, there were a lot of people who were like, well, come on, just have a drink. Be fun. And it's like, oh, well, they clearly need me to do that because it justifies their alcohol issue as well. And I remember even when I was drinking and other people weren't drinking, I would be that person, too, where it's like, well, come on, you got to have fun, right? You want to have fun? We got to drink to have fun. And it seemed like maybe this is who, uh, Abigail is. She recognizes the faults in her actions and knows them to be bad, but she's addicted to the chaos. She wants to surround herself in this, um, Seth pool because she thrives in the danger. She needs that in her life. So for her to encourage Jen to do that, she probably knows it's bad. She's now willing to work on herself. So she's like, well, if Jen is like me, then it's fine, right? Continue to be a, uh, mustache twirling villain.
Speaker D: Abigail is just a little, tiny farmhouse pig. She just wants to roll around in the mud, and she's only having fun if other people are rolling around in the mud with her. And I think that's what we're kind of seeing because we've called it since the first time she was on the screen, she's an agent of chaos. All she does is try to sow chaos and make people kind of go crazy and I think we're seeing that firsthand now. It's now gone from just like spreading rumors to now actively manipulating somebody's life.
Speaker B: I also am realizing we know that Jen has never really had any meaningful female relationships and as far as we know, we haven't really seen Abby have any friendships. So I wonder if they both just don't know really how to have a friendship that feels genuine and supportive and this is just their way of having some type of friendship in their lives.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's smartly written in that way to talk about our social fabric being very misogynistic and patriarchal is that, ah, women are oftenly infighting and that's the way structures are set up to be. Like, well, women are constantly in competition whereas men are able to flourish without that kind of relationship model in mind. So I wonder if they're very much directly speaking to that with these two characters, um, reacting the way that they react. Because these are the only two women friends we see on the show except for when Joey and jen were like kind of having they're forming a little bit of a friendship near the end of season one, but without that, I can't think of any other women relationships that are strong bonds. Except for Gail. Ah and, uh, graham.
Speaker D: Yes, best friends.
Speaker B: Um, also I can't remember if this happens at the end of season sorry, not season one at the end of the act one or beginning of act two when we see Jen kind of come in and stand in the cafeteria doorway and Joey and her kind of look at each other.
Speaker D: End of act one of act one.
Speaker C: When Joey's complaining to Dawson about the project. Jen's there in the background.
Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know really what I have to say about that but I just thought that was kind of like an interesting them both kind of acknowledging each other's presence and this tense, awkwardness mhm.
Speaker D: Yeah, what I thought was interesting about that little shot in that moment was Abby and Jen enter together, they lock eyes with Joey and Dawson across the cafeteria hallway and then Abby leaves the frame and it's just Jen in the middle there. And I think that that's kind of an interesting little framing device or maybe a little bit of a foreshadowing that Abby is setting Jen up to fail. Right. She's really just going to leave her all by herself there for her to kind of flounder, which is what we see continually in this episode.
Speaker A: This is good, this is good.
Speaker D: Flounder like fish. Sorry.
Speaker C: Good one, good one.
Speaker A: Teaser, uh, with the tweezer. So I wonder if this is rich. I like this visual storytelling. So we have Jen who's framed by the doorway so she's been placed in a box, this is who her character is, she's stuck in it and she's not allowed to really leave that structure because she's not comfortable yet of being. Who she is versus in a fishbowl. She might be an official, uh, whereas Joey, uh, Joey is in the cafeteria. She's not framed by anything. She has like this open world that her uh, character has been set in within the image. And I wonder if this is playing to how we see Joey later kind of flourish from this project and learn that she does have agency in her life and she isn't just the small town hick who is going to be forced to stay there for the rest of her life.
Speaker D: Interesting.
Speaker A: Whereas Jen right now, since she is uh, playing this character, if she continues to play this character, she'll never move on and progress through her own life.
Speaker D: Totally.
Speaker A: I wonder if that's supposed to be the visual juxtaposition in these things.
Speaker C: Mhm.
Speaker D: Interesting. I like that idea.
Speaker C: Yeah. And speaking of Joey kind of getting out of her situation, we have her in the ice house talking to Bessie yes. In this act. Um, kind of trying to get out of that rut she's in. Not wanting Bessie's help.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker A: Super sad.
Speaker D: So sad. I just felt like I felt so bad for Bessie and specifically this scene. But really this whole episode, it's like I think what we see in that very first scene with Bessie and Joey is that their life is like falling apart. And what we find later on is that Bessie kind of wants to kick Joey out because she's worried she's ruining Joey's life. It's really sad.
Speaker C: Yeah, it is sad.
Speaker B: Essentially, we're given a new Bessie. This feels like 2.0. Yeah. One of my notes for this episode was that I just felt like Bessie was like a completely different character. Um, essentially introducing her as a single mom without any explanation.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker B: So there's that. And then later on I felt like Bessie had an accent, like a southern accent. I don't know if anyone knows that. Um, but yeah, I just thought this was, I was like is this what's happening right now? Are we being told that she is a single mom? Because she says virtually so I think.
Speaker C: And I think what she's trying to tell Joey is like I mean for whatever reason we don't know. That why, uh, Bodie is not around. She feels like a single mom because she has to take on so much with the baby and with the restaurant on her own because for whatever reason Bodie's not there. So she essentially feels like a single mom. That's kind of what I got from that. But it is very confusing because we don't know there's nothing else behind that.
Speaker A: Why all we know of this canon is that Bodie got a job at a French restaurant in a different town and that's why he's not around. So if she's virtually a single mother, it's like, well of course he's probably staying in a hotel or something because he has to stay at this job all the time.
Speaker D: I just wish that they would make.
Speaker C: A choice and mention something about Bodie.
Speaker D: Yeah. Because that was their opportunity. I'm virtually a single career mother with Bodie being gone all the time. Goddamn. M. Can we get some clarity here? Because it's just really fucking confusing. He was in the bathroom last season.
Speaker A: That's still shitting.
Speaker D: What's going on?
Speaker C: Very confusing.
Speaker B: Yeah. Um fucking Jack with his mop. Just like, what universe are people just putting dirty mop water back on the ground?
Speaker A: We all learn someplace.
Speaker D: Poor guy.
Speaker B: Which is so funny just because, like, in the last I can't remember if this is the last time I said when he's, like, locking up the whole story. He's like, yeah, I got this.
Speaker C: But then it crashes crashes in the background.
Speaker B: But now he doesn't know how to mop. Yeah.
Speaker D: Wants to try this.
Speaker A: Actually. It kind of reminds me of a good, uh what am I trying to say? There is, like a trope there of the rich character that assumes they know everything because their wealth offers them the ability to have that agency of being like, well, I'm successful, so everyone can be successful when in reality, they've never worked a day in their life. And we get to see that with Jack because from what we get, they had money at one point. Now it's gone. We don't really know the full story there, but I mean, this could be, for all we know, jack's first actual manual labor job or, like, customer service job or something like that. Thus him not knowing how to use them off in a bucket. It's a good learning experience for him.
Speaker C: Definitely.
Speaker D: I just like that he's willing to try. He's wanting to chip in. Can't say he's not a hard worker, which I appreciate. And I have been there. I didn't know how to use a mop at one point in time. And did I dump the water all over the floor thinking you're supposed to mop it up? Yes. So, Jack, you and me, bud, we are the same person. Except I've never been rich. Maybe one day we'll see. This podcast has got to make us all rich. We now move to Mali's Market, the coffee shop that's named a market. I don't quite understand this.
Speaker C: I love that it's becoming a fixture. There's three scenes in this episode where we're in Mali's Market.
Speaker B: Yeah, I really liked that because I definitely remember being in high school and just hanging out at coffee shops all the time. That was like, what we did. So, yeah, I liked that we got to see this place multiple times.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: I have some thoughts later on.
Speaker D: Yes. Uh, it comes alive at night, doesn't it? It's definitely the singles hangout popping. This is, uh, one of my favorite lines from this act and maybe even from this episode. I don't really need a Jacuzzi as.
Speaker A: Long as I get this Viper. Everything's okay?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker C: You are a bus driver and I.
Speaker B: Am a sales clerk. We're not getting any Viper.
Speaker D: I love that. You are a bus driver and I'm a sales clerk. Cody, back to your idea. Right. What are we supposed to think about? Everybody is kind of being given this version of a fantasy life for them to break out of, right? For Dawson, I think it's more for Jen than it is for Dawson here. Right. But Jen is being shown you don't really want this life. Joey is being shown you can break out of this life. What are Pacey and Andy supposed to get? Because I think they learn how to work together but I'm trying to think what's the metaphor for them getting paired up together?
Speaker A: I don't think it necessarily has to do uh, with the roles that they receive from the project. But we get mid up, uh, the conversation that I feel like Pacey has to do the exact same speech at least five times per season. Now, uh, where he is, I'm the black sheep of the family, I'm the black sheep of Ksi, blah blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the episode that gets subverted because Andy is the one who's like only did half of the project and then Hasty is the one who turns in like a really stellar project, it looks like coming to binder. You know, there's graphs in there. So I love that through this process of him being like, well, I'm the black sheep, nothing ever good happens with me. I'm an idiot, I'm a slacker. He challenges himself and actually shows that when you actually commit yourself to something, you do not have to be the person you think you are. Uh, you can actually break out of that if you pull yourself up by the booster. Stop eating avocado toast. He actually does it and it's great. And I feel like, uh, who knows what will happen in the future? But by him actually challenging the identity that he thinks he is, he becomes Pacey 2.0. Who knows where we can go from here?
Speaker D: Yeah. And on that note about challenging the role that he has, uh, Andy calls that out straight out. Let's listen.
Speaker B: Doesn't that sicken you? That you're living up to the most common and base of male stereotypes? You don't care about your wife and kids, all you care about is this overpriced, absurd piece of metal.
Speaker D: It's got passenger side airbags in the most Pacey way possible. Right. But I do think that it's interesting right, that he is kind of she's calling him out like you are just a male stereotype. Though I think he's a little bit more than that at this point. In Dawson's Creek, definitely at the beginning of the show he was just a horny teen but now he's slowly becoming more but he's also showing that if you just kind of want it, if you work for it, you can have it. It's not necessarily about what your circumstances are.
Speaker A: It's the self fulfilling prophecy that he's allowed himself find himself in. You always see that. It's like the neckbeard incel that's like, well, women don't want me. And it's like, well, maybe if you actually try to better your own life, then people would be interested in communicating with you instead of just like, reveling in your horseshit. So this feels like the first step to Pacey actually is self actualizing.
Speaker D: Yeah. Mhm. I like that. Speaking of self actualizing mitch and Gail.
Speaker C: Oh, my God.
Speaker D: Self actualize. Their open marriage here in a weird way, confusing.
Speaker A: God, Mitch and his fucking Chris Hemsworth arms in this.
Speaker D: Yeah. So in this scene, Mitch is scraping a boat. Not sure. Uh, somebody who has a boat. Let me know because it looks like he's just got a wire brush and he's just scrubbing the shit out of this boat. I don't know what it's doing. I would imagine it's hurting the boat.
Speaker A: Is he angry at the boat?
Speaker D: I don't know, but he's doing that. And some dude drives his wife home. But we know they have a driveway instead of the driveway. They drive right up on the front lawn. She gets out, they have a kissy kiss on the lips, on the lippies, and then do like, little floaty fingers at each other as they're like, Bye. And Mitch is like and she's like.
Speaker C: I'll get those papers to you tomorrow.
Speaker D: Mitch sees this whole thing with a smile on his face and then is upset about it. And then Gail is confused about Mitch being confused about I don't fucking understand this scene.
Speaker C: But she's also acting as if, like, nothing happened. Like, that she didn't just kiss someone on the lips. I know, it's the was like, against the open. It's so confusing. It's so confusing.
Speaker D: I know it's the people did different things then than they do now. But I can't imagine that we're just like yeah, you can kiss coworkers on the lips after they give you a ride home, after you've been caught cheating. It's fine.
Speaker A: Not, uh, to sound like Jerry Central.
Speaker D: But the casual kiss.
Speaker A: I feel like the casual kiss used to be like a mainstay, true, uh, American culture, but on the cheek. No lip, baby.
Speaker D: What?
Speaker A: My parents I have memories of them, like, kissing their friends. Good.
Speaker D: That's actually a good part. I have similar I remember being at a Halloween party and watching both of my parents kiss their friends on the lips before leaving.
Speaker B: Yeah, it did. That was back, like COVID, wasn't it?
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: I definitely thought it was very strange, but to me, it did feel more like friendly instead of romantic.
Speaker D: I agree that it felt friendly, but I just can't, uh and maybe it's just because we live in the modern time where the friendly kiss is no longer a thing. We would never really think about doing that. But that said, I just couldn't place myself in the shoes of Gail and be like, what just happened? Yes, I was cheating on my husband. He wants an open marriage. I'm not so sure about it. I'm going to get a ride home from a coworker. He knows that there is some sensitivity there. I bet he's feeling insecure. You know what I'm going to do?
Speaker A: Kiss this dude.
Speaker B: Yeah. It's all fucking weird.
Speaker D: I don't know.
Speaker C: Yeah. I feel like either it has to be something where it's like, outdated now, or they took something out of the scene that would have explained it more. I don't know.
Speaker D: Well, I think we're supposed to draw the conclusion we did because Mitch has the response he has, which is no matter. He even says it. It's fine for you to get a ride home from your coworker, but I'm allowed to have the feelings I have from him because my trust has been broken. Right. So I think that, uh, we're supposed to draw this conclusion that, yes, this is a normal thing, but he can't see it as a normal thing anymore because their relationship has fundamentally changed. Mhm.
Speaker A: Yeah. It's hard for me to understand, really, Gail's perspective here, because she knows everything that's happened between them and taking it for granted. She's almost like, well, Mitch knows he should trust me, so I'm going to do these acts right in front of him.
Speaker D: He knows I'd only fuck Bob.
Speaker A: Yeah. And if he doesn't trust me, then that's, uh, him issue.
Speaker D: Yeah. So earlier I was saying that I thought that this plotline was the weakest plotline in the episode because it kind of.
Speaker B: Whiffle waffle wiffle waffle.
Speaker D: Yeah, let's play some waffle wiffle ball. Um, anyway, it goes back and forth. And this is an example of that. Right. So earlier in the episode, he was like, you know what? Let's drop it. I don't want it. I just want us to be happy. Then this happens. He gets upset and he says, Thursdays are date nights. But I have one fucking rule. Let's listen to his one rule.
Speaker C: Meaning?
Speaker A: Meaning from this moment on, thursday night is date night. We can go out with whomever we.
Speaker D: Want, do whatever we want, whenever we want.
Speaker A: And the only rule is we're honest about it. See, there's no need to lie. An open marriage allows us that.
Speaker D: So the one rule is that they don't lie that they're honest about what they whatever they do on a Thursday night. Right? Let's check back in whether or not they're honest, whether or not they both adhere to this one rule that they have set forth for their Thursday night date nights. I'm going to give you a spoiler. They don't fucking follow this rule. Neither one of them does. But this is why it's so confusing and so weak for me. Neither one of them is able to follow through at any point in time with what they want. Maybe that's intentional. Maybe we're supposed to get something from that, but it's fucking frustrating for me.
Speaker A: I think it's supposed to be frustrating. It seems like their character trajectories right now is like they do not know how to have open communication with each other. And they have constantly built up this facade. And so it seems as though just playing devil's advocate here, but Mitch has built up this. All of this is built on a pyramid of bullshit. Every single thing that has led to this moment is based in them lying to each other, thinking that they can get over it or everything is fine. This is the thing that I have to do for this to be successful. So it's the kid that lies, uh, so much about bullshit that it's just like, you're in too deep now. You can't go back.
Speaker D: Totally.
Speaker A: So Mitch is like, uh, yeah, I forced us into this situation, so I'm going to lie and say it was a lot of fun. Whereas Gail is like, well, I went along with this against my wishes and now I have to lie to make him feel jealous. It's like they'll do fucking anything as long as it's them not being honest with each other. They've built a house of lies.
Speaker D: Interesting. Almost like a house that changes its floor plan every couple of episodes.
Speaker A: Um, um.
Speaker D: All right, so they're in Jen's room and they're talking about they're just laughing and joking and they're having such a good time. And they talk about what they're going to do with their kids. And, um just want to know what you guys think about this. Let's take a listen.
Speaker C: Dawson, if we had kids, they'd be Ivy League material.
Speaker A: These prices are astronomical.
Speaker D: According to our tax bracket, we would have to earn $60,000 a year just to send one kid to one year of college.
Speaker A: Such a rip off.
Speaker D: How much do they have to earn to, uh, send a kid to college? Sixty k a year. You think we could send the kid to school on sixty k a year?
Speaker A: You can't even buy my grocery.
Speaker D: What the fuck? I know it's 1998, but that just made I laughed out loud when I saw that for the first. I was like, oh my God. Yeah, that's hilarious.
Speaker A: Again, they have that house on a single parent income.
Speaker D: Yeah, that's true. Did you guys notice that Jen's lamp shades matched her wallpaper? I don't know if we've talked about this before. That was the coolest fucking thing.
Speaker B: I liked it a lot.
Speaker D: I want to do that. We don't have wallpaper in our house, but I'm going to find wallpaper and then I'm going to plaster it on lampshades just so we can have this in our home. Sorry, Mel.
Speaker C: That was probably a courtesy of Graham's.
Speaker D: Oh, yeah, you know it.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker D: Interesting that Graham's wasn't in a single second of this episode.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker C: I didn't even think about that.
Speaker D: It's that old racist lady, but this scene is so fucking uncomfortable. It's the beginning of what I hope is a very short lived M phase in Jen's character arc, which is her being like borderline a predator. It's so fucking uncomfortable to watch her. Dawson says it later, throwing herself at Dawson and Dawson being very lukewarm at absolute best, I would say. How do you guys feel about these interactions though? Do you think Dawson is conflicted or do you think that he's just trying to figure out how to get through it?
Speaker C: I think he's trying to figure out how to get through it. It seems uncomfortable for him.
Speaker B: Yeah. And I think later he says this is embarrassing. Uh, so I feel like he feels embarrassed for her and is just trying to get through it and not make her feel more uncomfortable.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker D: I've had one situation similar to this in my life where I had a friend who was an alcoholic and she threw herself at me quite regularly and I just felt bad for her because she was a friend of mine who kind of like anyway, long story. So I didn't know how to be there for this friend and I just wanted to be there for this friend. So I kind of see a lot of that in Dawson's relationship with Jen here. He just wants to be there for her. And I think maybe he feels partly responsible for this downward spiral because he purported to be the person to always be there for her and help her, and now she's stuck like this. And I think he's just I want to believe he's just trying to figure out how to get through this and also help Jen. But I don't know, there are moments where I'm just like I'm not sure if you're conflicted or not or sorry if you are conflicted.
Speaker B: Mhm. I didn't get the vibe that he was, but I don't know which is kind of surprising because he was just like so into her before. But yeah, I wish someone would just like, I mean, later he's like, hey, what's going on with you? But I just wish someone would check in on her.
Speaker D: Yeah, really worried about her. I bet we'll get one of those in. I wonder if it'll be next episode or if it'll be by episode six, but I have a feeling that by the end of the first quarter of this season we're going to get that kind of like, um, for lack of a better term, come to Jesus moment for Jen. I know she's already had that once, but she's going to get another one, I think, where she realizes Grant, oh, Grant's ghost is going to come back.
Speaker C: And check in on her. I was just thinking like, who's it going to be that checks in on her? I wonder, is it going to be Graham's or a new character or I.
Speaker D: Don'T know, what if it's Billy back from the city forgot about him.
Speaker B: I just had um, a little memory of the show from when I was younger so I think I might know who okay, but I won't say anything. Um, Joey. Um, also though, it's interesting and very weird that Dawson has not addressed the drunken kiss that happened before.
Speaker D: Oh yeah, right, when she threw yourself. I totally forgot about that.
Speaker B: Yeah, or like does Joey know about that?
Speaker D: I don't think so.
Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think so either.
Speaker D: I think there's a disturbing trend here of Dawson just not telling Joey anything about what's happening. Which maybe is for the best because I think Joey would it seems like.
Speaker C: Joey kind of knows because she kind of sees it from Jen so maybe she's just like, eh, Joey knows but let it go.
Speaker D: Yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker D: Yeah, I think she would be livid if she knew that.
Speaker C: Jenny Hill.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: I could see an episode being like Jen putting him on blast and being like, does Joey know about our version?
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker D: Yeah, well, I'll get back to that. I have a thought on that later.
Speaker A: Uh, I don't think we're made to believe that Dawson is a very socially aware character but he's so hyper aware of the situation. Maybe I'm just like wondering if he recognizes this is not Jen. He obviously tells her that but he's like, this is so weird. It's not even worth mentioning to Joey because this is all such a facade and it would just create unnecessary drama because this isn't really Jen, this isn't who she is.
Speaker D: It's kind of like when you know somebody socially but then you see them at a party for the first time you're like, whoa, you are a totally different person. I didn't know this was the way you were. And it's because like, whatever, they're among their friends and you only know them in this one life. It's like Dawson knows this isn't who Jen is. To your point that she's like, I don't know, trying something else out. I don't know, I ah, just find it very alarming.
Speaker A: Alarming and sad.
Speaker D: Yeah, cautionary tale for all you people out there.
Speaker A: But you know what rules is this entire time I've been like begging Michelle Williams to get uh, something that isn't just her crying every episode. We finally got it.
Speaker D: Yes we did.
Speaker A: And she's killing it. She is such a sad performance and she's doing a really good job.
Speaker D: Yeah, it really is. Speaking of a sad performance, I was going to say something about going on break but I don't know how to tie that back in so we're going to go cry. Bye.
Speaker A: While Pacey and Andy take a tour of a dilapidated shithole apartment, they begin to argue over their project momentum which leads to Andy calling him a slacker and forcing Pacey to explain once again how he's the black sheep of Capeside and his family. He in turn says she'll never understand as she's rich and spoiled which hurts her feelings as, uh, she expresses that he really does not know her. Meanwhile, in a nice interior design office joey shadows Laura Weston for the Econ Project. Described as the embodiment of a successful career woman laura tells Joey her success story before picking Joey's brain for advice on a restaurant floor plan finding mutual benefit in their working relationship. Elsewhere, Abby implores Jen to up her seduction game with Dawson. And later that night at the Leary's when Joey is trying to take advantage of some alone time with Dawson to make out jen arrives all dolled up and interrupts them for their project. When Joey leaves, Jen suggests she and Dawson head to his room. Later, Joey arrives at the Ice House finding Bessie and Jack cleaning up after a busy night. When Joey tells Bessie about her experience with Laura bessie brushes it off having needed Joey that night to which Joey proclaims that she is not a slave to Bessie's needs. Concurrently, Gail had made dinner for Mitch but he tells her that he's going out because it's Thursday. And later, Gail takes his lead and goes out as well.
Speaker D: So this is back in the dilapidated department. This is where I will return sell. You can remove one of those thumbtacks out of your skull. Thank you. There's blood all over. I'm so sorry. Um, but this is where I want to return to my point about Pacey and Andy's relationship being a different relationship something new and fresh for Pacey and something that I think we're supposed to pick up on. So in this scene, like you're talking about he shares about how he is the black sheep of the family and everything. But I think what's interesting about that is instead, normally we see Pacey deflect with humor, right? He jokes. He makes jokes or he makes a joke out of his own situation or he just tries to laugh things off, right? That's what we kind of continually see between him and Joey, him and Jen, even him and Dawson. The only time we've ever really seen Dawson and Pacey be vulnerable with each other is at the end of that party episode where they drive off on the boat together finally having made up after a whole episode of dancing around each other. But in this one, Pacey is initially joking things off, right? Like the viper stuff. He's like making a joke out of everything. But then here, when he's challenged, he doesn't joke it off. He doesn't try to play it off like anything. He instead is immediately vulnerable. He bears himself. He tells his story to Andy to try to get her to, one, understand where he's at but also to recognize, um, maybe how good she has it unknowing to him. Right? But to me, this is a huge shift in how Pacey is. His first instinct isn't to joke and deflect with her. It's to be vulnerable and to be authentic, which is not something we typically see from him. So I don't know, I just think that we've been talking about their chemistry, how great they are, how much we kind of predict them at least getting somehow involved with each other. And I think that I'm seeing it more and more through this lens as well. There's a reason we're thinking that it's because Pacey is actually being a real person with Andy, where he's just being kind of a little horny, like, Jester, Boy with everybody else. Boy, that's my superhero name.
Speaker A: Uh, I feel like a little bit of it is that he recognizes the same thing in her. She uses the exact same tactics to deflect yeah, deflect and make light of their situation. And I, uh, think a bullshitter can smell bullshit on another. And it's just kind of like, well, I feel safe with you because we're cut from the same so he is willing to kind of talk about this, but at the same time, uh, the thing that he doesn't realize is obviously her wealth situation with her family. And so in a way, it's like we're cut from the same cloth, but I don't know. You got the part of the cloth that has, uh, some diamonds glued in.
Speaker D: Yeah. On that point, Andy does choose to kind of lean into humor.
Speaker A: I'm sorry.
Speaker B: I'm not the biggest slacker on the planet.
Speaker A: After all this, you still think I'm lazy?
Speaker B: No, Pacey. There's Lacey and then there's you.
Speaker D: There's you is what she says to kind of cut off there. But yeah, I mean, we get the point, right. She does like to joke around just as much as Pacey does. And she has that same kind of biting sense of humor that I think Pacey does. And maybe you're right. Maybe that is why he's kind of able to cut through that with her in a way that he can't cut through it with anybody else.
Speaker B: I don't know. I thought it was nice that she apologizes for kind of making these assumptions about him. Um, I thought it was interesting that he just kind of, like, immediately moves to insulting her.
Speaker D: Yeah. He immediately makes an assumption about her without even realizing it. This is what we're talking about. I want to know the reason that this assignment is so fascinating to you.
Speaker A: In reality, you've never had a problem in your entire life.
Speaker D: You drive. He just assumes that because she drives a sob. Yeah. Like, Sobs are, especially in the 90s, were like a kind of like a luxury vehicle. They're the car of the artist and the creative.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker D: You have to have a certain kind of wealth to have a sob. But at the same time, it's just a sob. You don't know anything else besides that.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker D: HM.
Speaker B: I wonder if you like yeah. If he's feeling defensive or I don't know.
Speaker D: I mean, I think he. Is feeling confused by the potential m my read is I think he's feeling confused by these feelings that he has for Andy and he doesn't know how to parse them. So just like he kind of does with everybody else he kind of like nags them. Right. Uh, just like any little kid does. You make fun of the people that you have a crush on.
Speaker C: As I'm listening to us talking about this, I thought this was an interesting setting for this to happen in. They're in this dilapidated apartment, viewing this dilapidated apartment which doesn't even make sense because you're like look at this place. This place isn't going to be actually rented to someone. It's completely dilapidated. So for them to kind of have this happen in this space it's very um symbolic.
Speaker D: Yeah this place is basically torn down to the studs except with drywall on top. Right. So it's not a livable home for them to be actually in yet. They're here kind of fantasizing about the life they could have together. In a way.
Speaker B: I love uh, the landlady smoking out the window being like oh, are you going to take the place?
Speaker C: No uh.
Speaker A: Good uh, writing you should make uh everything within the text should represent what's going on with the characters at all times. Uh nothing should ever be just random or for the sake of just like moving things along. And it seems like it's pointed that the apartment that they're viewing, besides the fact that they're viewing it because their financial situation for the project will only allow them to get a shithole. But that place also represents kind of the foundations of what their relationship right now is based on bullshit assumptions of one another. Right now they cannot like if they were truly honest with each other and they're vulnerable, but not vulnerable. Not as vulnerable as they need to be. Uh, and if they were it would not be a dilapidated shit whole apartment. It would be a good one.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: Because they looked at what? Twelve different apartments. That was the one that we saw. Yeah.
Speaker D: It's very confusing. I don't know why. I guess I kind of know why they're using this one. Like we're saying it's supposed to represent the uncertainty of their life and also it's supposed to reflect the circumstances they were given. But yeah, I kind of wish we got a montage of them looking at different apartments. They love to use a montage in Dawson's Creek. They use it to great effect. I think usually um, this would have been a great time to use a montage. We could have got a couple of funny little scenes of pacey like bowing for no reason. I don't know. Uh fast um, forward over to Weston and Associates, that cool design firm. And I love this patented uh, office talk that we get in the very beginning here. Let's take a listen.
Speaker C: Dale can you bring me the Farley portfolio? I need to look at it before the meeting.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker C: Must have always been pretty ambitious to be doing so well.
Speaker D: I love that she's like, Give me the Farley portfolio. And he's like, sure.
Speaker C: Love, though, that their secretary is a man and everyone else in office is a woman.
Speaker D: Hell yeah. Yet again, this show subverting expectations and showing us a little glimpse of potentially the future.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker D: I mean, that wouldn't be so out of place today, but back in 1998, I bet you that was glaring. And also, a woman of color is the owner and a man of color is her secretary. I mean, this show does not have very much representation or diversity, but it's good to see that. I guess there's our second and third characters of color in the whole show.
Speaker A: Again. It's a Mike White script. Uh, he wants to subvert every expectation in this episode about, like, roles and identities, and I feel like he has a really good way of representing that, too. For 1998.
Speaker D: Totally. So I have a question for you all. How long exactly do you think is a few years ago? Because Laura is talking about how just a few years ago, she was a stay at home mom with no job or any career aspirations. Then she sent herself back to school, started this firm, and now teaches halftime and designs half time. So a few years ago, in my mind is like two, three years ago, but I think she's using a different definition.
Speaker B: Or she has one of those things that hermione has in Harry Potter so.
Speaker C: She can take all those classes.
Speaker D: Ah.
Speaker B: Um, so she can do it all.
Speaker D: She talks about teaching halftime.
Speaker B: What if she teaches at Hogwarts?
Speaker D: Oh, my God. It comes full circle.
Speaker B: Damn.
Speaker C: Love though, in the scene that Joey, uh, is starting to feel empowered because she gets to offer advice and gets validated by a professional.
Speaker D: We're talking about this specific okay, hold on. We're talking about this here? I have something.
Speaker C: Listen, Joey, we're doing the designs for a chain of Mexican restaurants. Come take a look at these floor plans.
Speaker D: Sounds good to me.
Speaker C: No, look closer. Do you see any potential problems?
Speaker D: A chain of, um, Mexican restaurants, you say? Do we think that the kelp is spelled Q-U-E-L-P-I was going to say I.
Speaker B: Thought you were going to say something about, like, potential competition.
Speaker C: Uh, or for the ice house.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure the kelp.
Speaker D: Is a Mexican restaurant quilt.
Speaker B: Anyone know how to say kelp in Spanish?
Speaker D: No. Do you?
Speaker B: No. Uh, I wish I knew.
Speaker D: Listeners, write in. Just send us that single word. We will have no idea. But I love it.
Speaker A: We will read it on the show. Yes.
Speaker B: Oh, Celpo.
Speaker D: Wow. So I'm not too far off.
Speaker A: Never seen you so excited.
Speaker D: Love it.
Speaker B: Um, also okay, I don't know if this is worth talking about or not, but just like, what was the point of Laura being like, hey, take a look at these. Like, knowing that something was wrong, that the bar and the restaurant were further apart.
Speaker D: Yeah, I have some head cannon here that I'd like to present. So we see her, she calls her over. And there's another woman who's, like, standing awkward just for no reason, standing at this table.
Speaker B: I'm not sure.
Speaker D: I'm assuming she's the one who worked on these plans. And when Joey weighs in, we see her reaction and she's like, this fucking bitch. This fucking little kid coming in here. So I think that Laura was like, I think I hired the wrong person here. I don't think she knows what she's doing. Um, I need this 15 year old to look at these plans here and see because I don't know, she's a little bit of a bright spot. Maybe she could bring a spark to this organization. So I'm pretty sure that girl got canned as soon as this scene, um, ends. Uh, we even hear later. She's got an open invitation to come back whenever she wants.
Speaker A: I do like the idea of this is a white collar job. Uh, they're making this thing without consideration of the blue collar workers. They're going to be like the ones trapped in the environment of their creation. So it feels like for the first time, Laura is like, oh, I should actually ask someone that would be involved with this if it would work or not. And obviously that woman who looks so fucking pissed, uh, from Joey's advice is like, clearly someone that's rich that is like, oh, I've never even thought of what it might be to actually work in a restaurant. I just assumed. And I want to make it look cool based on my bullshit vision of what a restaurant is supposed to be.
Speaker B: We're back at the cafe again.
Speaker D: Molly.
Speaker B: Molly. Molly.
Speaker C: Um, can't wait till we actually hear them. Somebody hear someone say that.
Speaker D: It's got to be Molly.
Speaker A: Silent. Abby.
Speaker B: Um, yeah, we already kind of, like, talked about this, but just Jen laughing at Abby being very mean to Kenny. Kenny thank you. Which doesn't feel really genuine. Just feels like Jen's kind of putting on an act. And Abby just seems very obsessed with Jen getting to fuck Dawson.
Speaker D: Jocelyn yeah. I like, um, when Abby's like, after this whole episode, she's been treating Kenny like he's a little toad that just needs to be stepped on. And this time she's like, Kenny, what do you think about Joey and Kenny's? Like, she's hard. Fuck yeah. Kenny get some. I like it. Fuck yeah. I thought maybe cool as hell. Yeah. And then he's like, you know what, Abby? I think we should be working on our project.
Speaker C: Kenny and older.
Speaker D: Well, this is how Kenny sounded to me. Did I get a different version of the show than all of you? He didn't sound like that to you guys.
Speaker B: Um, really? Like, Abigail's shirt made me think of Delia's, too.
Speaker D: It was like, did you notice Jen's shirt? This reminded me heavily of the was like a red with, um, a very 90s thing to have transparent or semi opaque sleeves for no fucking reason. Yeah.
Speaker C: I feel like they're trying some interesting stuff with her outfits. And maybe it's part of that, uh, her trying to figure herself out.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker D: Gives me Spice Girls vibes every time.
Speaker C: I yeah, a little bit.
Speaker D: She's dressing. But then we go to the Leary kitchen and, um, both Mitch and Gail are getting ready for their well, sorry. Gail is getting ready for a romantic candle lit dinner. Does she know it's date night and she's just testing? That's my question.
Speaker C: I don't think so. Genuinely thought, like, I'm going to get dinner ready for but she does a.
Speaker D: Candle lit romantic dinner. That's like date night. You know what I mean?
Speaker C: I feel like she's testing. Initially going into the scene, I did think that she was getting ready for a date night because it came off yeah, it did come off as not like dinner for the evening, regular for family dinner.
Speaker D: And she's only setting the table for two.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker D: Did they forget that they have a son?
Speaker B: HM.
Speaker C: I think we're supposed to wonder that initially in that scene. Is she getting ready for the date night? Yeah. And then, of course, we find out that she didn't remember.
Speaker D: How cool would it have been if when Mitch came down, he's like, um, it's date night. And she's like, oh, no, I know Bob's coming over.
Speaker C: Yeah, totally.
Speaker B: Well, early in the episode, Gail accuses Mitch of being manipulative for bringing up the open marriage. And I was like, I think he's just trying to throw out ideas to try and help them. But in this scene where he's like, well, it's Thursday. It's date night. It felt like he's being very manipulative there. And it's like when she's really trying to put in some effort, and he's just like, no, got to go. I made plans. We clearly see later that he doesn't have plans. He's just hanging out at a bar by himself.
Speaker C: And she made a full like, there's a full plate of food there that he's just like, nah, sorry.
Speaker D: We also never see her confirm this. We see him propose Thursday as date night. And I got one fucking rule. But then we never see her say or confirm that. Yeah. Okay. So it just feels very authoritative and very confusing. But goddamn, I got to say, if I saw Mitch dressed like that, I would fuck the shit out of that man. Wearing a polo tee and some I don't know, khakis. Goddamn, he looks like a coach or maybe a Bible salesman.
Speaker B: But so fuckable so hot.
Speaker A: Those arms.
Speaker C: Oh, man. Yeah. Didn't make sense to me. I had the same thought. I was like, what? He's going out date night? It looked like more like Gail was getting ready for date night because she had a dress on.
Speaker D: And she did look like she was about to go bury her dog, though. It was like a floor length dress.
Speaker A: I just think they're both, like, really self destructive people, and they're just, like, just seeing how long can we stretch out this madness before we can finally come to terms with it? M. Seems like Mitch is willing to do everything it possibly takes other than admitting, like, you know what? This is a bad idea, and I just want you back. It's so hard for him to say it, but it also is so hard for Gail to do it too.
Speaker D: I know. It's like, why can't you just say, this hurt me? That's what he's really trying to say. This hurt me. But instead he's saying, I want to hurt you back. I mean, he doesn't even know what he's trying to say, even what Gail says, like, if you need to go sow your oats to get back at me, and he's like, no. And he drops it immediately. Right then. This is back in act one. It's confusing. He definitely doesn't know what he wants, but he knows that he wants I have no fucking idea.
Speaker B: Yeah. And I feel like we haven't I don't know, this seemed like Gail really making an effort, which I feel like we haven't seen too much of.
Speaker A: We've seen her making an effort sexually.
Speaker D: But not in other ways emotionally or romantically. Yeah.
Speaker B: So to me, it seemed really, um, strange that he would turn that down. But again, it seems like he's in this mindset of, like, okay, I got to get her back or make her feel jealous or something.
Speaker A: He knows it'll hurt her feelings. Absolutely. So I guess he is manipulative. Like, he knows that this will hurt her feelings. This is, like, his way of, uh, after, like, 18 layers of bullshit lying. This is the way that he feels. Like, he's like, I can get back at her and get what I want, even though I'm not getting what I want, but at least it'll make her feel something that she made me feel.
Speaker D: Yeah, I think you guys are really giving him the short end of the stick here because we've all been there, right? Like, we've got plans at Dukes. We got to go stand in a bar by ourselves for a couple of hours and stare at people. Stare at people. Yeah. Talk to one girl who's clearly got somebody else there that she's with. I mean, God, we've all been there. So I don't know what you guys are saying here. Dukes. Dukes. Do you guys want to go to Dukes after this?
Speaker B: Should we get one of those, like, neon signs custom made for Dukes?
Speaker D: Yes.
Speaker B: Put it on our wall posters?
Speaker D: Yes. The answer is yes. And then the other wall will be Kelp themed.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker D: I love it.
Speaker C: Get a Creek going in here.
Speaker D: Okay, that'll be interesting. Be very moldy water feature.
Speaker A: This is a good brainstorm for all of you listeners out there that are wondering, should we do a Dawson's Creek podcast as well? These are good podcast names. The kelp.
Speaker D: A creek runs through it. Um, so, yeah, while all of this is going on, dawson and Joey are like, finger banging on the porch. I don't I really I don't know. I I just feel bad for Dawson in this scene specifically as, you know, the Gail walks out and basically it's just like, hey, if your dad comes home, tell him I'm out fucking a stranger. Please make sure it hurts. And this is Dawson's response. I've given up trying to figure out my parents. I don't know. He's really weird right now. To your point, Cody, mike White is the king of show and tell because or show and not tell because. If this were a different writer for this episode, we would have gotten like 25 minutes straight about Dawson moping about how hard his life has been. And instead, this is the one moment we get and we feel it because we see it. Right? Um, like, I felt horrible for Dawson and when this is what's happening for him, I don't know, it's just really sad.
Speaker A: Uh, we already feel like we're an outside witness to whatever's going on with Mission Gail because it's confusing to us. I can't imagine how much more confusing it would be for him. He's not seeing the scenes the worst thing. So all he sees is just them by themselves, mission Gail and them being weird as fuck. And then doing this and then obviously communicating with your child, like, through your child is like the worst fucking thing you could possibly super healthy. Really healthy.
Speaker D: It's definitely like one of those signs of a good functioning family. As if you use your 15 year old son as your communication tool. Words to all the parents out there.
Speaker B: Yeah. Makes me feel like a teenager again. Um, thought it was funny just like after all the precautions about at the beginning of making sure that they weren't joey and Dawson were live together. They were like, have the whole house to yourself.
Speaker C: Ah.
Speaker D: Guess date night goes to you guys too. Um, yeah, I do want to give Joey props for not taking the bait when Jen walks in all dolled up and Joey is like, no, I'm good, I was just leaving. She doesn't cause a scene and instead she gets one subtle dig as ah, she's walking by, she's like, Nice dress, Jen's. Like, I borrowed it. Yeah, I bet. Fuck yeah, Joey. Yeah. You know what's going on?
Speaker B: Didn't like the dress. Didn't think she looked good or comfortable in it. Like, I thought she looked really uncomfortable and stiff in this outfit. In the next couple of scenes, it.
Speaker D: Reminded me of those puppets that people have where it's like just a stick that goes up through the back and then a couple things to control the hands because she was just like stick straight, so stiff it looked like she had a big old stick up her butt.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: She looks like a straw.
Speaker C: I want to talk about Jack for second in this scene. Um, so this is the second or third time that Jack experiences a fight between Joey and another character. Um, he was there for the fight and experienced the fight between Dawson and Joey and now he's seeing Joey and Bessie fight and so far all we've seen Jack do is kind of cleaning up the ice house. So I'm kind of wondering will Jack play a role in cleaning up some part of Joey's life?
Speaker D: Oh yeah.
Speaker C: Down the line, yeah.
Speaker D: I think we are foreshadowing a return to Dawson and Jen and with that, just like you were saying right? Joey is still kind of a symbol of the past for Dawson. He wants to move forward. Jen is trying to embody this adult person. Dawson's going to flip, go to the adult. Joey's going to be left in the dirt and who's going to be there to pick him up? Her up?
Speaker B: Jack.
Speaker D: Jack. Yes. That's what I think. Yeah.
Speaker B: I want more Jack.
Speaker D: He's cool as hell. Yeah he's really empathetic and he's really wise and I like the way that he interacts with Joey. I mean we've only really seen him interact with Joey but I really like the way he interacts with her. It's really caring.
Speaker C: Yeah I feel like his interaction so what we've seen of him so far really pack a punch. It's like a little bit but a lot.
Speaker D: He's very insightful. I want to know if he's older or younger. Do we know if he's older or younger than Andy?
Speaker C: We don't know yet.
Speaker A: I don't know. We've uh, talked at length also about how would we recast this show if we were to reboot it and I honestly think like a really good actor or character that could play Jack is Tree Beard from Lord of the Rings. The giant uh, walking tree creature. Because he's wise beyond his years. He's extremely empathetic and insightful. He understands the uh, meaning to be in between transitional phases of power dynamics.
Speaker D: Right. I love that. I think that we really do need to open up casting for this teen drama into fantasy creatures because I think Pan uh, the creature from Pan's Labyrinth with the eyes in his palms, who would that be?
Speaker A: Dawson.
Speaker D: Dawson. Clearly he's naked all the time. I mean god it's like he's kind of wet. Kind of like et. Okay, there we go. We'll recast et. As the creature from Labyrinth.
Speaker A: A first fight always leads to uh, first makeup.
Speaker D: I love that.
Speaker B: Um, I know we're only like a few episodes into this season but I feel like um, in general, it's like we've seen very little of all the characters interacting together. It's very much like Joey and Dawson, jen and Abby, pacey and Andy. Um, which is interesting to see, kind of like the different dynamics, but I'm really wanting more of every we haven't even seen Andy interact with Jen, barely with Joey or Dawson.
Speaker D: I don't think we've even seen Andy interact with Dawson.
Speaker B: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker D: Yeah. The season so far has been so much more focused into their little bubbles, which is, I think, a refreshing change of Pace. But I think that's more towards the point about the better writing because in season one, we would have all these different disparate plot points that felt completely unrelated. Now we're getting season two where there's these disparate plot points, but they're all relating back to whatever the theme is at hand. But I would love to see which is interesting that we did have this big party, but I would love to see them all interacting together, um, either in a party or at the movie theater, wherever, somewhere, something.
Speaker C: We haven't even seen Andy and her brother interact.
Speaker A: I'm trying to think of the perspective of a writer's room because you always for a show like this, you want to have an A story and a B story. And it's like, okay, so if we put all the kids together in one thing, like they're at a house party or something, what is the B story going to be? And I feel like there's a little bit of self awareness whenever I see us going back to Mitch and Gale because it is stretched thin and we're really pushing something that is doesn't have a lot of legs to it. So I'm wondering if for them, they're just like, if we only did the A story as the kids and the B story is Mitch and Gail. That's not going to work. It's going to be so weak and everyone's going to be really bored during those sequences. So I wonder if that's why they keep breaking off into these little pockets because they don't have a strong enough B story to go back to. Um, because right now, when you have all these little different bubbles of our characters, when you hop around, it's fun because you get to see these total worlds and then the only weak point is the Mission Gale stuff. But thankfully, it's only a couple of scenes. Yeah, but I don't know. I want everything that you want, too. It's like, we just have to figure out a good B plot to keep that momentum going.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'm hoping we'll get there because I really, really loved that scene with, um, Pacey and Jen. I feel like there's just so much to explore within all these different relationships. Yeah, but we'll get there.
Speaker A: We'll get there, get there.
Speaker D: We still have 23 more episodes of.
Speaker A: This season, 100 plus.
Speaker B: Sorry, I have a random funny thing. I was talking with friend of the show mentioned earlier, Haley and she was like, yeah, I'm noticing. Like, so she's starting from the beginning from season one and that she was noticing. That how our takes are that like, yeah, I really feel like this is going to get better. We keep really having these high expectations and nothing happening.
Speaker D: It's got to get better.
Speaker A: Season two's jump in quality is so profound in comparison to season one. So who knows, maybe by season six this is like Sopranos level television. Must be oh man, must watch.
Speaker D: We'll see. Well, speaking of, um, little disparate pockets of fun, we're going to go take a little break to our own little desperate pocket of fun.
Speaker A: Bye bye. We're back. Later that night, Pacey shows up at the Ice House for some coffee and vents to Jack about his sister Andy being spoiled. Jack reveals that they've actually gone through quite a bit of financial hardship and to give Andy a break, back in Dawson's room, he and Jen finish the project which opens the door for Jen to make some, um, unsettle advances. Dawson rightfully calls her out but Jen says she doesn't respect his relationship with Joey and she'll always be an option. When Dawson asks what happened to the Jen he used to know she says she got bored and kisses him before leaving looking sad from her own actions. The next day, Bessie comes home after cleaning the Ice House all night and record scratch fires Joey. When Joey tries to apologize, Bessie tells her that she realized Joey was kind of right and having her work at the Ice House is robbing her of her life. Joey tells Bessie that she's proud of her for everything she has done and continues to do. At school, the kids turn in their projects. When it's Andy's turn and she's about to hand in a Pacey less report, pacey shows up and hands in a substantial project that encompasses both their efforts. After class, Dawson celebrates the project being over while Joey feels satisfied by what she learned. When they kiss, Abby and Jen walk by with Abby shouting Get a room and Dawson says he doesn't know what that's about. Elsewhere, Andy thanks Pacey for finishing the project and he apologizes to her for assuming things about her personal life. When they playfully bicker about the project's details, they walk by none other than Pacey's ex groomer, Miss Tamara Jacobs, thankfully avoiding her stairs. And lest we forget the b plot of Mitch and Gail whose Thursday night escapades turned out to be lonely. But when they came back to bed with one another they lied to each other about how much fun they had before going to sleep turned away from one another.
Speaker C: Okay, I want to talk about the B plot just for a second 1st because we're in Molly's market.
Speaker D: Molly, of course, with Gail mhm.
Speaker C: Mitch is at Duke's. Does anyone notice who else is in Molly's market.
Speaker D: You guys didn't notice?
Speaker C: Okay.
Speaker A: Was it Cole?
Speaker C: No, it was Mike White. And I don't know if James noticed this. James, we both saw Mike White, but he's sitting at a table writing, and he has crumples of paper all over the table. And you actually hear him crumple a piece of paper and throw it. And so this is Mitch inkale's plotline. This is him writing their plot.
Speaker D: Oh, interesting. I love that idea.
Speaker B: That is so fun.
Speaker D: Uh, we'll try scans by his table in the very first part of that scene after Gail gets her coffee and starts to walk away. They scan through the shot in the very first person. It's Mike White on a table by himself.
Speaker A: That's so rad.
Speaker B: Wow. Damn.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, that's really fun. I don't know if we should just talk about this right now, but that coffee shop is popping off.
Speaker D: It really is.
Speaker B: At first I was like, okay, maybe this is like, uh, what do you call it? Date.
Speaker D: Uh, like a speed dating thing.
Speaker B: But it seemed like not that to.
Speaker C: Me, it seemed like one of those, like, 24 hours cafes or the coffee shops that are open late for evening coffee cocktails.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker C: But initially, I wouldn't have thought of that market being that until Gail go there.
Speaker B: It's the most amount of people we've seen in one.
Speaker A: It's like lively people are hanging out. Recently, Stella and I were talking about how, um, there's not a lot of options, like, if you don't drink alcohol to have a fun place to hang out in Portland. And Stella, remind me there's like an alcohol less bar that has a pop up. But then I was like, well, it's not going to be the same environment because it's still going to be, like 11:00 at night and a bunch of sober people in booths not talking to each other. That's not going to change anything. But this place, it's like, people are they have their Americanos and they're losing their mind.
Speaker D: They're so happy.
Speaker C: They're like, it looked more exciting than what was happening at Dukes.
Speaker B: Yeah. My initial thought was, like, this kind of sucks and feels like a little bit unbelievable that they're both by themselves. I mean, I think that's supposed to be kind of like the point. They're just, like, sad and alone, though. But it's just like, really, like, Gail couldn't call up a friend to come meet up with her. And Mitch isn't, like, hanging out with Cole or I don't know. I didn't really like that.
Speaker D: I thought what I got from that was that we were supposed to see that, like, oh, they're so out of practice, they don't know how to talk to people. But then what doesn't quite work for me with that is like, we already know Gail can get it. You know what I mean? So the notion that she's just going to be awkwardly but. I guess at the same time she isn't really committed to this yet. Mhm right. I think she's just doing it to say she did it. Whereas I do think that Mitch M. Is actually trying because of both of these scenes, he's the only person we see actually try to approach somebody as casually and as weak as it was. He does try to say hi to that girl at Dukes as she is leaving with somebody else. Which made me laugh because I was like, dude, she's clearly leaving because we.
Speaker C: Know Gail did that at work. So that's a whole different environment that she was able to do something. But she's by herself sitting there and.
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't yeah, I still think they're both begrudgingly going through the motions. Even when Mitch is like, even if he's trying to ask her out or hit on or anything, he knows she's leaving.
Speaker D: He's just like, right? Mhm? He's like, say he did.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I don't think either of them were really expecting to hook up or go home with anyone that night. It's more like, well, I'm proving this to myself because we're fighting right now. If I do this, then that's what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker D: See, I could talk to anybody here, M. I could get any one of these girls.
Speaker A: Even if Mitch went home with someone, he would be miserable the entire time.
Speaker D: Oh yeah, mhm. Well, I mean, that polo shirt and those he's never going to find somebody who's going to appreciate him for the true man he is at Dukes. Let's M. Take a quick wind back to the very first scene in the act, which is Jack and Pacey walking into the Ice House and wanting a cup of coffee despite them being closed up. And what does Jack do? He gives Pacey the cup of coffee, he hears him out and then he even gives him the story. The lowdown on the McPhee family tragedy, I guess, except not really. All we know is that they used to be more wealthy than they are.
Speaker C: The last remains of a decaying dynasty.
Speaker A: Yes. Jack's role here as bartender, uh, as like a salmon Cheers kind of situation feels very strange. Especially I don't really give a fuck about realism and TV. Like, as long as it makes sense to the world that they're living in, it's fine. I'll let it fly. But it seems very strange that it's after hours and, uh, they just had like a fresh brew coffee going. What I assume is very late at night. Because if you're closing a restaurant, that restaurant is going to be open for at least until like ten. So let's say it's 11:00. Pacey just rolls into huh, a closed restaurant, asks for a cup of coffee. Very strange. Do you love the role of Jack being the all truistic, empathetic tree beard that he should be?
Speaker D: I bet that coffee was brewed this morning and he's just like, yeah, whatever you say, bud. Here you go.
Speaker A: Yeah, let me microwave that up for you real quick.
Speaker C: What do you all think about Pacey immediately jumping to the conclusion that Andy might be on medication?
Speaker D: I got this. I love this. Let's take a, uh, listen, is your sister on any medication? Because she just went completely ballistic on me. What did you do? Nothing. I just called her a spoiled princess. She goes psycho. I like that. He's like, Nothing, I didn't do anything. All I did was call her a spoiled princess and imply that because she's rich, she has no problems in her life. What's so wrong with that?
Speaker B: I do wonder if it's foreshadowing because, uh, I think we've talked about that. We've heard that mental health kind of comes up more in this show. So I wonder if interesting.
Speaker C: Yeah, I thought Jack was a good brother here for asking to give Andy a break.
Speaker D: Definitely. Good guy, Jack.
Speaker C: Yeah, he and Andy seems like they're close.
Speaker A: This is good too, because it's, uh, an opportunity for the show to show two men react in a way that isn't, uh, straight to anger or frustration. Like, clearly Jack is upset that Pacey was an asshole to his sister, but instead of directly yelling at him, he's like, oh, well, actually, this is our situation, so you should probably consider that the next time that you're with her. It's good representation for masculinity that is not toxic in a show that is filled with toxic masculinity.
Speaker D: I don't know what you mean. Well, let's go ahead and just jump into Dawson and Jen in their room. I think that this is, um, the worst part of the episode, but I think it's also the worst part of the episode by design. I think we're all supposed to feel as uncomfortable and, um, grossed out as we do in this moment when Jen is saying things like this.
Speaker C: God, I'm so beat. I don't think I can even make it next door. Do you mind if I just crush here for the night?
Speaker D: Actually, yeah, I do.
Speaker C: What.
Speaker D: Do you mean? What do you mean what I mean?
Speaker A: I think this too, is like a really good example of subverting our expectations because usually this role would be designed for a man to be like, all over a girl who's like, please leave me alone. M. And again, handled very well. Yeah, this is designed by design to make us extremely uncomfortable. Um, it reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bart has a crush on his babysitter and, um what the fuck is the bully's name in that show? Uh, like the older kid who wears like, this gold t shirt.
Speaker D: Randy?
Speaker A: Um, no, nelson. No, not Nelson. Randy. Try that one again right now. But he comes over and he's like, hey, is it cool if I take my pants off? They're really chafing me. It's like, clearly what she's doing is to dawson and he's not having any of it. And also just props to Dawson again for being strong in this, not reacting in a way that belittles her, but a way to be like, this is not you and this is embarrassing and I'm very sorry that this is happening right now.
Speaker B: Yeah, she's just straight up like gaslighting him.
Speaker D: Oh yeah, like hard quarter. Yeah, I think I capped that. Let's take a listen here because I thought the exact same thing. I was like, Jen, what the fuck are you doing?
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker C: Dawson, if you can't handle being in the same room with me, I think.
Speaker D: Okay, I can handle being in the same room with you. I just can't handle you throwing yourself.
Speaker A: At me every other second. I mean, don't you find it humiliating?
Speaker C: I'm not humiliating anybody, Dawson. And I know that you're with Joey and I accept that. I just don't respect it. And I don't mean this in a slutty, self degrading sort of way, but I want to let you know that.
Speaker B: You'Ve got options and I'm one of them.
Speaker D: That moment where she's like, if you can't handle being it's like, uh, what the fuck?
Speaker B: Yeah, that. And then I think before that when she says, can I stay the night? And he's like, Nah. And she's like, well, if you can't handle me sleeping over or something about.
Speaker D: Not nobody said anything about sleeping together. And she's like, uh, what else? You know what I mean? It's just like that's honestly, like scary to watch because that just is like Abby is getting into her head. Right? This has all been planted in Dawson, in Jen's head by Abby, and it's worrying because I think what we see is after this, Jen tells her that, right? Jen tells Dawson, I just want you to know you have options and I'm one of them. She kisses him and then she walks out and leaves. And we see she pauses in the hallway and she has this look on her face in that moment where she almost looks like disappointed in herself or something, I don't know.
Speaker C: So right before that, when Dawson asks what happened to her, he recognizes that this is not Jen. What happened? She refers to herself in the third person. She says she got bored and she decided to liven things up a bit. Which I thought was significant because she's not talking about herself. Mhm, she's talking about someone else. That's not her.
Speaker D: Yeah, it's interesting. Mhm.
Speaker A: Jimbo Jones. The simpsons character is jimbo Jones. Ah, yes. No mal 100%. I love that idea of her talking in the third person because it's, uh, that clash of identities. If this was a David Lynch project, halfway through this episode, they'd wake up and they would be the people that they're pretending to be and be like a new character named Jimbo.
Speaker D: Joe, Jenny or Jennifer? Jennifer. Um, have you guys noticed that this show has like, a weird I don't know if obsession is the right word, but often when there are these deep or impactful scenes happening, there's, like the use of industrial sounds in the background, like foghorns or train horns. In this scene, while Jen and Dawson are, like, arguing in their room, there's a couple of times where you hear this train horn in the background, which I think imparts this certain sense of loneliness or forlornness or whatever, being on the move. That that sound kind of because Twin Peaks is the same thing, though. That's because it's based around this aquatic, aquatic themed restaurant. Is Twin Peaks actually taking place in the kelp? Um, anyway, I just find that interesting, and I want to start tracking that because it comes in and out, and I feel like I notice it more in these moments where it's like a pivotal moment in the show or in a character's arc.
Speaker A: Well, I think trains are traditionally used as a symbol for progress. Like, if you think of Panther Panchali, um, the train is, like, often do.
Speaker D: Yeah. Thank you. You're right.
Speaker B: My go to exactly.
Speaker A: The Santiagoji ray movie. It's really good. Uh, the Apu trilogy. But a train is used to signify progress. And this idea of transitioning from one period to another, um, the world is changing. Right. And I think here that could also be the case. It's like we hear these sounds in the background. If it is a train, then it's like, well, this show is kind of railroaded towards progress. We're, uh, going forward, and we can't stop. We can never go back to what we once were before, which could go with Jen and Dawson being like, we can never have a relationship again because you're choosing to be this new person, and that's not the person that I was in love with before this all happened. But we can never go back. Now that I know that you're willing to put on this facade, I can never be in a relationship with you again because I know that there's, like, these two different identities that are constantly struggling.
Speaker D: Interesting. I like that read could also be something completely different.
Speaker A: I don't know. I mean, and I also do appreciate, just, like, the general sound design of the show to reinforce where they are at all times. Um, I know I've complained about it before, but all these Star Wars shows where they're just, like, shooting in a warehouse with the big Led panel. It's like airless, and there's nothing, and they're just in these tight rooms that have no exterior sounds. Uh, this feels so lived in. And I actually feel like I'm in Capeside when I watch these scenes and.
Speaker D: Smell that sea air.
Speaker A: Bo. Not enough cost.
Speaker D: I also think that potentially the train and foghorn could be a warning sound. Right. Because trains sound their horn as they're coming up to a crossing, and boats sound their fog horn when it's foggy or I don't know. There's probably some kind of warning tied in there, but yeah. Mhm mhm.
Speaker A: Uh, I'm trying to think here. I love symbolism. I love talking about the shit. So pardon, uh, me, but the purpose of a foghorn is because you're driving blind, right? Like, it's to direct you. So, I mean, it is like all these characters right now are driving blind. They're hoping for the best right now, and there really isn't, like, a call into the port that they need.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker A: This is good. Mike White don't crumble this idea.
Speaker B: Well, back at, uh, Mr. Manmade's bedroom yeah. We see them both lie.
Speaker D: Yes.
Speaker C: Did you notice how many pillows I love this because they're lying to each other and they're sitting there and, uh, I counted the amount of pillows that they are removing from the bed. Ten pillows. And in fact, it's only Mitch. Gail's just standing there while they're, like, cryptically looking at each other. And he's removing pillow after pillow after pillow off the bed, and it's like, going on forever. And it made this seat and feel so awkward.
Speaker D: Some say he's still removing pillows from that bed.
Speaker C: Yeah, I just loved it because it was already so awkward. M. It's like, do they put all these pillows back on the bed every day?
Speaker B: And I don't know, people be doing that.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, who's? The person that did like Airplane and the Naked Gun. Uh, if it was them doing this, it would just be, like, endless. Like, they would never stop.
Speaker B: Um, yeah, so I think Mitch seems, like, happy with himself. Like, oh, well, I talked to some people. Um, it seems like he's, like, wanting to get a reaction out of Gail. And then she's like, well, I'm glad you had a nice time. And then just kind of, like, turns over, um, which, uh, feels passive aggressive. But also, I was kind of like, yeah, sister, sister friend. Uh, I wonder, what was he hoping to get out of her? What was the reaction he was wanting or a conversation he was wanting to have from that? I don't know.
Speaker A: He got what he wanted.
Speaker D: Mhm.
Speaker B: Yeah, but he looks kind of, like, surprised when she turns over.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: I don't know if he got what he wanted.
Speaker A: He got what he wanted. Begrudgingly. Like, he doesn't want this, but he wants it too. He's like, I want to hurt her feelings, but I don't want her to be mad at me. Yeah, you can't have your cake and.
Speaker B: Eat it too, right? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. He just didn't feel good after all of it. She's like, oh, well, this sucks.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker A: Like, I got her, but now I feel like shit. And it's like you can't disconnect those ideas.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker D: I think it just gets at their inability like, you so perfectly summarized earlier, Cody, that it just gets at their inability to actually be able to have real, honest communication because the one rule for this whole thing that they're going to be going on is that they can do and see whoever they want. They just can't lie about it. When they get back to it, they have to tell the truth and immediately they lie about it because they did not have fun. We know that they did not have fun because we saw it. Gail did not meet up with a friend. Though I do think it's interesting that what she says that she did was social. She went out to meet up with some friends for a drink and Mitch did not do what he said he did, which is talk to some people and do some dancing. He just stood there awkwardly by himself like a dork. And neither one of them had fun. Neither one of them actually got what they're doing. And, uh, both of them are instead lying to each other. So they cannot be truthful in this moment. And they have no idea what they're doing. I don't know.
Speaker B: I don't know. All of it just felt really unfulfilling and unhealthy. I don't really know what's going to happen next. I feel like they're kind of headed towards divorce, potentially, if this like yeah. I feel like their communication just is deteriorating more and more.
Speaker C: Like those pillows, one after another after another.
Speaker B: We have water porch. Yeah. Like a sweet moment between them, Joey and Bessie. Um I don't know. I don't really have much to say about this.
Speaker C: Uh, it was a heartwarming sister moment.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: I, um, mean, at first she's obviously she's like trying to fire Joey, but I don't think she really wants to fire Joey.
Speaker B: Yeah, um.
Speaker A: I mean, I think this moment kind of encompasses Mitch and Gill's relationship, but it is showing the other side of what that is. Like, Bessie doesn't want to fire Joey, but she's going through that motion because she's like, well, I want to hurt her in a way that she's hurt me. But then within the exact same scene, she realizes that's wrong, like I'm doing this to lash out. And she actually becomes honest with her and says, you know what, this hurt my feelings. But at the same time, you're right. They find kind of like a mutual understanding and it gets wrapped up nicely. Not even in an unrealistic way. It's like, oh, this is like how good communication happens between people that are even against one another in that moment is they can find some kind of understanding between where they're both coming from and they do find that. And it is like a genuinely sweet moment because Bessie is like, I'm projecting. Not that her life is shitty, but it's like, I'm forcing you to do my life and that's not fair to you. And the fact that she can even come to that realization is enormous. It shows that Bessie has a lot of emotional maturity and she can actually tell when she's doing something that is kind of gross. Uh, but also, Joey is smart enough and emotionally intelligent enough to be like, wow, I really appreciate you and everything that you've done. And I understand that. Even though sometimes I feel at odds with how you are kind of controlling me. I know you have my best interests and there's nothing wrong with that. I think the show Mike White, Dawson's Creek, it's showing us, like, oh, this is what Mitch and Gail could do if they were actually honest with each other and understood where each person was coming from. So, again, we're kind of, like, getting, like, a mirroring of what those kind of relationships could be like.
Speaker D: Yeah, I totally agree. Because both of them, Bessie and Joey, are coming from a place of hurt. Right. Bessie, I think, is obviously hurt because of multiple reasons. One, she feels guilty for putting Joey through this kind of life. And also because Joey is kind of, like, complaining about the life that she has. The fact that she has to take care of Alexander and work and go to school and all of these things. And I think Joey is hurt because she genuinely wants to help Bessie. She talked to Laura. She got these financial advice. Laura wants to help out with the menus and the redesign and all that stuff. And Bessie kind of threw it back in her face. Both of them are hurt, but instead of doing what Mitch and Gail did, which is let's burn this house down and try to rebuild it from the ashes without any kind of plan, they instead articulate how they are feeling. Not why they are feeling the way they are, but how they are feeling. And through that mutual communication, they end up deepening their bond and kind of finding a common ground for the two of them to move forward on. Right. Because the end of it is this beautiful moment where Joey says, like, you can't fire me. I won't be fired because I'm not going anywhere and I love you. It's, like, so touching to see as somebody who has an estranged relationship with their own sibling and wishes they could have had something like that. It's really nice.
Speaker B: Okay, well, here we are, the final.
Speaker C: Students turn in their projects.
Speaker B: Um, Pacey turning in the project was probably, like, the highlight of this episode for me. Um, I just feel like it's the most altruistic thing we've seen from him, um, and maybe anyone. It felt just, like, so thoughtful and really sweet and it made me feel, um, a little emotional. And it's like this potential of all these things that we could see from him, you know, like, he really is deep down, like, a really good person and cares about Andy. Um, yeah, I think it was a.
Speaker C: Nice follow up to his conversation that he had with Jack and showing that action of, like, he was listening to what Jack said and then feels bad. So that was another good show don't tell moment.
Speaker A: Yeah. It's the closing of his character arc, uh, be it from this entire series or even just this episode. But he steps, uh, up when it's needed. And he proves that he is not a slacker loser. Like, he does something that's not just for himself, but for somebody else. And it's really beautiful to actually see him pull through and do something.
Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, I thought that it was a really nice moment for him to come in. And I love that he looks like shit. You can just see that he stayed up all night working on this project. Right. He's bleary eyed. His hair is all messed up, his shirts all wrinkly. His clothes look bad.
Speaker C: Kind of rushes in at the end of class.
Speaker D: He's late. Exactly. And I thought that that was a really nice moment of what we can only assume happened is that he went there. He had that conversation with Jack. He has his whole vision kind of shaken. Right. And what does he do? Instead of being like, oh, well, whatever, I'll just kind of get by on a C or a D or whatever, he's like, actually, I'm going to make it up to Andy here because she needs some help. Now I'm finally thinking about everything that we've gone through today, whatever, for this project. And, uh, he just kind of like, rises above his circumstances, like the theme of this whole episode to deliver on something better than he could have expected. I just thought it was really nice.
Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And I'm looking forward to seeing his next interaction with Andy next episode, and to see how that progresses after her seeing him, like, do do that.
Speaker D: Yeah, agreed.
Speaker A: My only major disappointments from the sequence and the end of the episode, besides tomorrow, is, um, everything was so tightly written for these characters and the journeys that they go on. And then they learn a lesson to some extent. Uh, the only thing is, uh, other than Abby, and Kenny is like, Abby, we reinforce the idea. She knows who she is. Kenny at the end, she just makes fun of them and everyone kind of laughs. Kenny's story. I was expecting a little more. Not that it's okay for something to not meet your expectations. That doesn't mean something's bad. But it seems like there must have been a deleted scene where it's like, hey, Kenny, you just got prom king or something to be like, oh, he's not a loser. Or like, maybe it shows up at the end of the episode going to his Viper and he drives off. But we're just left at like, yes, Kenny is a fucking loser.
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker A: Just like, laughs at him.
Speaker B: Yeah, like, the teacher just kind of like dismissing what he says.
Speaker D: And the two jocks in the background are making fun of him as he's talking. They're like holding up their hands. Like the glasses thing, it just felt like, okay. Yeah, it's definitely still 1998. And yeah, we make fun of chubby people and nerds.
Speaker A: Cool.
Speaker D: Great. We're never going to get past that. Yeah, that's how I felt. I was like, okay, sick.
Speaker A: It's weird when so many other lessons are learned that is still left as like yeah, that's pretty funny.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: Where's Abby's lesson?
Speaker D: Uh, she'll get it eventually. I think maybe. We'll see.
Speaker B: Well, the final shot. Tam. Tam.
Speaker D: She's back, baby.
Speaker B: Um, I lowkey got chills. I was like, oh, shit. Things are about to get wild.
Speaker A: Is there a word for angry chills?
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, I want to know, did she come to the high school just to see him?
Speaker D: Right? Or were they like, hey, we need you to return a book.
Speaker C: Why is she back?
Speaker D: Yeah, I got the same response that I think Cody you did? From the sounds of it, I was just like, oh, great, she's fucking back. We didn't have enough of this last season. Sweet.
Speaker B: I do think it'll be interesting knowing that Pacey has comes a long way and seeing how he'll handle this. I'm excited for.
Speaker D: I bet. I'm going to make a prediction here that I almost feel like she is not even going to insert, uh, herself into the situation. Because I kind of got the feeling in that brief moment where we see her face in the rear view mirror. And then as the camera pulls further back, she gets up and looks over her shoulder at them. She looks like hurt. Kind of sad maybe. But I think she also is going to be happy. And she doesn't want to mess things up for Pacey. Because the whole thing at the end of their last arc was she didn't want to fuck things up for Pacey. So I kind of feel like we got almost like a red herring or a, um, macguffin here. She will come back this season. But I don't think she's going to come back quite yet. I think we just got a little reminder that Tamara tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow exists.
Speaker C: I always remember because it's like, tomorrow, tomorrow. We'll, um, be back tomorrow.
Speaker B: Funny coincidence. Last night, two nights ago, we were watching Jeopardy. And there was a Dawson's Creek clue, which we posted on our story. But someone playing Jeopardy. Was named Tamara.
Speaker D: Weird. Whoa. Weird. Yeah.
Speaker B: And then we were watching Party Down and there was a James Vanderbie reference, right?
Speaker A: Oh, yeah, there was. And, uh, there was that other reference to well, not like a reference, but Megan, um, Malali's character talked about how, uh, is it Megan Malali's character? That was like, I met, uh, my future husband at prom. They're like, oh, who was it? And she's like, oh, it's the coach.
Speaker D: Yeah, that's funny. Well, that brings us to the end of the episode and moves us on to our ratings. Who would like to go first.
Speaker B: You want uh, to go? Cody, I'm so curious to know why that you thought this was your favorite episode.
Speaker A: Yeah, I'll go. I'm, uh, giving it a 4.5. Uh, the reason being is, like I said earlier, this really feels like, uh, there was a theme to this episode. It was cleanly written. Um, there was a start, middle and end. I thought that everything made sense. Even when characters didn't make sense. It felt like it made sense for the purpose of the drama of the show. Uh, I just thought it was really strong. I mean, when I'm saying it's like a 4.5, I don't mean like, this was like the most engaging episode of TV. But I was like, I was like, oh, this is like the best version of what this can be. And I'm happy that none of it felt like fluff except for the Kenny thing. It was like, that was the only thing where I was like, this feels like it's, um, they're just like there's no real reason for this to happen except for him to be the butt of the joke for Abby. Just to reinforce that Abby is mean. Like it's like a totally secondary character kind of thing. Um, and also a uh, lower rating because there really wasn't uh, like it felt like there was deleted scenes. They would have like added a little more to like why Joey is suddenly hanging out with Laura or why Mission Gail are, um, so quick to take on Date, uh, Night mhm. I thought it was a very strong episode.
Speaker D: Yeah, fair.
Speaker C: I am going to give it a 4.5 as well. Um, loved the character development for Joey and Pacey specifically. Um, also I thought the class project was an interesting way to explore relationships between characters and mirroring of different relationships. Um, and I mean that's kind of I don't know other than that, just, same thing. Just like the structure of the episode was well done.
Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I'm going to say, uh, 4.25. Um, overall, I thought it was a really strong episode. Um, really just didn't like the Mitch and Gale plot.
Speaker D: Um.
Speaker B: I really liked the way that the project brought these people together. Um, and seeing the different dynamics. Really don't like this path we're on for Jen. Um, but overall, I mean, it feels like it will have a purpose and um, yeah, overall, loved, loved, loved the Pacey bit at the end. That was like a big highlight for me and yeah, that's all cool.
Speaker D: Well, I hate to be um, a contrarian here but I'm going to be giving this episode a 2.67. Um, whoa. Yeah, I actually do enjoy this episode quite a bit. I think it is pretty good. Um, but I also really didn't enjoy significantly did not enjoy several moments of this episode. I would be willing to bet that the moments of discomfort I felt were intentional. Um, and. I do give it its flowers for having a visceral reaction from me. But I, uh, just continue to go back to feeling like we're making progress on the types of plots and the way that we're weaving our plots together. Um, I just really did not understand the Mitch and Gail subplot. And I thought that it was kind of lazy and I wish it didn't happen. It made me laugh a lot of times, and it got me some good, uh, some good clips. And I guess on that note, I did take 43 clips for this episode. So I think that is a world record for me so far. So I don't know, maybe my experience watching it multiple times has impacted my rating. But yeah, so far, this is my least favorite episode of the season. Um, and I'm very excited to see where it goes. And I think we got some good things coming out of it. But that's the rating I gave it. And with that, we move on to recommendations. So I will go first. As is tradition, last will be first. Isn't there a biblical verse about that? I am God. Um, so on that note, I'm actually going to be recommending a video game that is yet to release. It will be releasing sometime in June. It is a video game by the name of Diablo Four, made by Bethesda, and I believe Activision is now involved in this somehow. However, with that said, Diablo is a video game franchise that I have been involved with literally since the very first game was released. I've played every version of this game, and I've long been awaiting the release of Diablo Four. It's an action RPG where you create a character in this crazy, gothic, demonic world where hell and humanity, uh, you're caught between this war between angels and demons, and you play a very large part in this war. The steps that they're taking forward are very impressive. And I think that we're going to see, just like we do with every time a Diablo game gets released, a huge resurgence in the action RPG genre. A lot of games are going to be benefiting from the things they're doing here. And I just really love the world. Like I said, this kind of angels and demons you're caught between them. It's very cool and very fun. Um, and seeing the world, um, of Hell kind of brought into our world really makes me think of this amazing song that I know called Hell by King Lizard and the Gizzard. King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. It's off of their album infest the Rats Nest from 2017. And I hope that you all will go and listen to it. It's amazing.
Speaker B: I will go. Um, I am going to recommend earlier mentioned Haley, friend of the show. She is, uh, an amazing person overall. Um, she is very talented. And a little bit over a year ago, she started, um, making stained glass. Um, she's taught herself, for the most part, is incredible. She does it all. She can do animals. She's done some UFOs. Uh, she made us a monstera leaf when she first started. That's very beautiful, hanging up in her house. Um, she's done some really, uh, sexy pieces. Um, she can do custom pieces for you. You should check her out. She has an instagram and an etsy. Glass, grass and ass. That is glass, grass, and ass. Um, yeah. Give her Insta a follow, and check out our Etsy.
Speaker D: Cool.
Speaker C: Will do. I'll go next. Um, I am sticking with my bird theme from last episode. I'm, um, going to recommend an IG account called Avian Behavior. It's an account run by bird behavior expert Hilary Hankey. Um, she posts educational videos about bird behavior with birds like parrots, owls, ravens, vultures, two cans, kind of bigger birds. Um, pretty cool stuff. She, uh, posts a lot about a white naped raven that she has. It's very cool. One of my favorites. Um, and just check it out.
Speaker D: It's good stuff. Do you know how behavior is spelled? Is it spelled the European way with.
Speaker C: A U, or is it no, I think it's B-E-H-A-V-I-O-R. That's why I believe it's. Well, okay. I'm, um, also going, uh, to give an update on the big bear bald eagle cam that I talked about last episode. Sadly, um, the eggs did not hatch, but Jackie and Shadow are still active at the nest. So you can still go and look at, um, the live feed. The, uh, eagle specialists are saying that they're still showing signs of being in nesting mode, which means Jackie may lay another clutch of eggs. So go check it out. There, um, are also, apparently two nocturnal flying squirrels that visit named Fiona and Fast Freddy that people have been enjoying watching. They live, uh, nearby, and they visit at night to scavenge for leftover food that the eagles have left.
Speaker D: Yeah, well, Fast Freddie, it's funny that you mentioned them, because those eagles have been making the rounds on the Internet, actually, this week because some news, like BuzzFeed type thing picked up a video of Shadow bringing Jackie a stick for the nest uh huh. As a gift. And then, uh, Jackie flying off and Shadow taking her place, which is an uncommon characteristic of male eagles, to kind of help take care of the eggs. This is what Mal talked about last.
Speaker C: Week or last episode. There's actually a separate web page where you can read they're writing, kind of educating people about what is going on at the nest.
Speaker D: Very cool.
Speaker C: Yeah, check it.
Speaker D: Out.
Speaker A: Uh, more of a personal request for this one, but old buddy of mine, Lou, was, uh, recently diagnosed with stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. And thankfully, his health team is really positive about his chances for a cure. But he's looking at six months of biweekly chemo and won't be able to work that entire time because of how awful the side effects are. And plus, his cancer isn't covered by Oregon's short term disability, which really puts his family in a tough spot financially. So we're going to put a link to his GoFundMe page in the podcast Show Notes. I know everyone says this, but every bit helps, even if it's just like $5. Uh, Lou really is like the sweetest guy and it really breaks my heart what him and his family are going through, so it would mean a lot if our listeners could throw some money his way.
Speaker D: He deserves it. Yeah. Everybody who is listening right now, go ahead and hit that little I button on your podcast player. It'll open up the Show Notes, find the link to the GoFundMe and at least just open it up and look at it. Share it with your friends if you can't donate, but please feel free to throw anything. Like Cody said, anything helps. Thank you.
Speaker B: Well, next time on Freaks and Creeks, we will be talking about season two, episode four, Tomorrow's Return. Tamara's Return dredges up unresolved feelings in pacey as Joey struggles for independence from Dawson.
Speaker D: Independence from Dawson can't, uh.
Speaker A: Wait.
Speaker D: I guess my whole prediction has to go out the window if the whole next episode is titled Tomorrow's Return. Wow, that did not last long. All right, well, on, um, that note, we are going to go ahead and leave so we can watch that episode. Thank you all so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, go ahead and subscribe to our show and join us as we continue to set sail through Dawson's Creek one episode at a time. If you want more Freaks content, please visit our website, freaksandcreeks.com and find us on Instagram at freaksandcreekspod. Or you could just write us an email show@freaksandcreeks.com. But until next time, bye bye.