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Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.
Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.
Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.
To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.
DH - Ed Bakos
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Ed: [00:00:00] How many times have we gone into, it could be a hotel, it could be a house, or whatever. And the bathroom is laid out so that it looks like it was easy for the contractor to build, but it's, but it's almost impossible to turn on the water without getting soaked.
Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.
I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.
Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.
Dan: Today's guest is someone with over 30 years of worldwide hospitality experience. He's led teams realizing a broad range of project types, ranging from high end interiors to architecture and urban design. He's a true innovator who's [00:01:00] led the design of multiple new H Hotel brands and other signature projects that have moved the bar for our industry. He's currently the CEO at Champalimaud Design in New York City. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Ed Bakos. Welcome, ed.
Ed: Thanks, Dan. It's a pleasure to be on the podcast.
Dan: It is a wa it's so wonderful to have you on. And I know that in life we do so many different things. Like we obviously have our vocation, we have our family, and we have our outside passions. Um, and one of the things that I've been really, really interested in with you and I, I'm also curious how it ties into fuels your inspiration for your role as CEO at Champ Paul Ramon, but just, um. The historic preservation of airplanes. And I, I love that story and I want to get into that. 'cause I do think that there is a, a crossover only to just get inspiration and build a community and get the best out of [00:02:00] each other and a machine in this case, um, but also just paying homage to where we all come from in the past.
So I do wanna get there at some point here, but before we dive into all of that. How, what does hospitality mean to you and what's kept you in this game for so long?
Ed: Well, I think hospitality for me is really a mindset and it's about, um, sort of creating spaces, hospitality in, in the design world is about creating spaces that, uh, generate sort of great experiences, great memories. Um, and I think I discovered this idea that. Hospitality was about not just creating sort of exchange, You know, small exchanges.
It's about sort of emotional exchange. And that design has the ability to impact how we perceive things, how we, how we, um, long before we, we touch the first thing, we're looking at something [00:03:00] and you're having a visceral, emotional relation, You know, reaction to it. And design has. Has the opportunity to modulate the experiences that we create and create really interesting and wonderful experiences.
Um, done poorly. It can create really bad experiences too.
Dan: Yes.
Ed: it's all about, um, You know, thinking about the, You know, the ways in which the built environment can interact with the service environment to create unique experiences.
Dan: One of the things I was also fascinated to learn about you and I, I think the, the. The project list and the portfolio of Champ Palomo really speak for itself. The, the, the level projects and just the global impact that you guys have had working on projects everywhere are incredible. But I didn't realize that in your career you worked at Rockwell and you actually did the first hotel project that Rockwell did. And that, to me, that's so [00:04:00] surprising. 'cause I thought that that would've happened way before you were even there.
Ed: Yeah. You know, it's, it was interesting. Well, um, uh, maybe go backwards in my life story a little bit beyond, beyond that point or prior to that point. Um. I studied architecture, uh, at and have degrees from Cornell and Harvard. I'm sort of admittedly overeducated. Uh, I spent the first group of my, um, experience, my professional experience actually working in urban design.
We'd, uh, I worked for a firm in Boston called Dennis and Clark, where we had won a competition to redesign the Carnegie Mellon University campus. And somewhere along the line, I want a fellowship to go overseas where I studied the work of this really. Brilliant. Um, but obscure sort of Italian, uh, baroque, uh, architect Boarini who was creating these really.
Expressive spaces that were also kind of models of the universe. Like the guy was an interesting character. He was a, a priest and a [00:05:00] mathematician and an astronomer. Um, in a time when all those things were kind of linked together, knowledge was all one thing. And this was in the period right after, um. You know, they invited, um, uh, Galileo to a barbecue, uh, in Rome.
Um, And so what Gini did was he, he was, he came up with this theory that all the celestial observations could be reconciled if all the planets and all the things moving around the earth moved in undulating orbits. And so he built these. Uh, spaces that were all about undulation, uh, in all the different ways that you can imagine.
And he designed things like the, the chapel, the holy shroud and Turin and different things. And so it was this kind of interesting kind of oddity, this idea that someone could design. Architecture that was a model of not just the world, but of the scientific world. That was sort of inspiring to him. And [00:06:00] along the way, um, I was, uh, asked to teach at Cornell University's program in Rome.
I eventually, um, uh, went to work in Switzerland. I ended up teaching at the, uh, aha in Zurich under, uh, just really spectacular, uh, professor there, Verna Seligman, who had been the dean of the. School of architecture at Syracuse University. And there was a part of my life where I thought that this, You know, a room was the consequence of an idea of the city.
Um, and. It came from, You know, this kind of top down, kind of urban, You know, idea. And when I showed up in New York, a friend of mine introduced me to David Rockwell, a spectacular, uh, man. And um, uh, they offered me a position there. I think I was the 24th person in the office.
Dan: Wow.
Ed: and somewhere along the line, this guy came in.
Um. And offered us a project to design a hotel, and David was like, okay, you're kind of [00:07:00] architecture. You could, You know, there was, it required sort of an addition to the building and an interior renovation. And I think this was the, the i, the point in which my career where I discovered that as an architect you could, if you design a hotel, you could work on the building and everything in it.
And it was also that German idea of sort of g the total work of art. Um, and. I didn't really, I hadn't really known that there was a project type like that. And that's sort of where the hook was set. Um, anyway, the guy who came to us was, his name was Barry Sternlicht. Um, the hotel that we did was right behind the wall of Astoria.
It was what became the first W hotel. And it was a real sort of study in this idea that, um, differentiated design could actually lead to brand development and the relationship between. Um, unique ideas about experience that came out of sort of our approach to design. Um, could lead to a [00:08:00] whole other conversation about rebranding, um, and branded experience.
Dan: And, and what a pivotal project that was for our industry at the, in the context of the time. I, I, I just remember, and I talk about this a lot, how that whole Starwood kind of lay. I don't know. Laboratory of innovation just created such fun and incredible experiences as as it related to hospitality and really just, I think it just changed the direction of what hospitality is and has become.
Ed: Uh, great. You say that. Uh, but in, in truth, it was part of a wave. And so we were looking out, when we started that project, we were looking out at other interesting properties to us in New York. Um, and we were looking at some of the Schroer projects, remember the Paramount, for example, or the Royalton.
Those were two hotels that I think changed this idea about what a hotel might be in New York. Um, the irony is actually that when we started off, we, we, the design that we [00:09:00] came up with was really, um. Sort of set in opposition to that idea where we started looking at, um, those projects, kind of hotels, nightclub, if you would, and thinking that it was possible to design a different kind of attitude of something in the city.
And we came up with this idea of, uh, the hotel was a kind of urban oasis, and the goal was actually to try to attract, uh, discretionary female travelers, um, with who had. Access to larger sort of travel budgets and create a space that could be sort of kind of welcoming in a, in a different kind of way.
The irony is that we, You know, the project ended up being really successful and it kind of turned into another version of Hotel as, as nightclub, but it was youthful, it was fun, it was fresh, um, and. You know, it's, but our outlook for the project was really focused on notions of sort of developing a strategy and a differentiation strategy for what we thought it would [00:10:00] be in this kind of sphere of other interesting hotel projects that were happening at the time in the city.
Dan: Well, I think what was cool or so innovative about that one project, it was the, the seed of W and the that whatever, whenever came out of it. And I think all the things that Schrager did that perhaps you were emulating, but also trying to evolve. I think what W did was. figured out a way to scale that excitement through, uh, nationally by creating this, this brand, and to be a part of that and, I don't know, and just to go see all the projects that Rockwell has done since then.
It's like, it's, it's pretty mind blowing. I mean,
Ed: Yeah.
Dan: as, as a. mover in that whatever that type of of hotel is. Also, I just wanna give you a shout out because I talk, I have a lot of friends and, uh, many acquaintances who went to Harvard and when they say, when I asked them, or if someone asked them when we're, when we're out, where did you go to school?
They invariably say, oh, I went up to school somewhere in, up in Boston or Cambridge. And I just wanna say thank you for just [00:11:00] saying Harvard. Most so many people run away from that. So
Ed: Oh, thank you.
Dan: I app. I appreciate that.
Ed: Yeah, no, it's, it was interesting. So I, in a lot of ways I worked with David for 18 years, uh, principal at Rockwell Group, and I learned a heck of a lot from him in a variety of ways. But I think it, what was sort of fascinating for me and, and to work with someone like Barry sternly to, is, uh, just a brilliant, uh, person, um, while we were working on, on the w on Lex.
Um. One of the things that we discovered was that the rooms there were super tiny and we couldn't afford to sort of combine them. The ROI really didn't work out, but we came up with this idea that, that we would take the bed and we would rot do the last thing you would think about. We would rotate it and put it in the middle of the room, and there's this idea that.
That we had create this kind of, um, secret garden like element that you'd come around the headboard into the room and that everything would be about the bed. And to Barry's credit, while we were doing that project, he was [00:12:00] buying, You know, Sheraton, ITT Weston, and he came up with the idea that. He took that I, that notion about everything being about the bed and created the heavenly bed.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Ed: this kind of idea, that sort of experience that, that the, the everything could be about taking one aspect of the experience and, and making everything about that and why it took the hotel industry so long to think that everything could be about the bed is a really.
Dan: At that, that just blows my mind. And I know also from like as a, I just wanna give a shout out to a vendor that worked on that. Deborah Herman, I think she was one of the early, uh. People that helped concept all the bedding and everything. She just recently passed. It's very sad for all of us as an industry. Um, but it is shocking to me that that heavenly bed was probably one of the most innovative things in hotels up to that point. And I would say even maybe arguably between in the past 20 years [00:13:00] because, and it's also crazy because you go to a hotel to sleep, right?
Ed: Yeah, exactly. It, it seems so obvious today, but it wasn't, and I, I, You know, I have, You know, the credit belongs to Barry on this sort of, this to sort of recognize sort of that, that this was the differentiating sort of aspect of it. And so, You know, it's like as, as I sort of, it was really for me, this, this discovery that, um, one.
The hospitality, the idea of a hotel as a type would open up opportunities. You know, every architect wants to think, You know, that they, You know, you think sort of large scale and small scale. It's the idea of putting all those things together. For me, this was the discovery that there was a whole other world out there and that would lead, um, ultimately, You know, to the, um, to the career that I've been able to, to build here.
Dan: Well also just to have studied a visionary like Guarini, did I say his name right? Guarini. Guarini. And then [00:14:00] also I would consider Barry a visionary as far as like being uncompromising in his vision and getting there and kind of changing the way that industry operates and he continues to do so. David, similar. Now let's fast forward to Alexandra who. I've met her a few times. I've spoken to her a few times and what I can share about her, unlike many other people, You know, there's, there's these, there's very few people in my life that I've experienced where when they enter a room, it just changes the tenor of a room. It like quiets it, it, I don't know, it lights up. was it like first meeting Alexandra, and how have you carried on her vision?
Ed: Oh, that's a great question. Well, first, Alexander is one of the most amazing people I've ever come across in my life.
Dan: Agreed.
Ed: Uh, she has a, a kind of a natural instinct around design. And what I love about that in her is that [00:15:00] her instinct. Is very different from mine around the same aspect. And I think it's this idea that we come at problems seeking similar outcomes, meaning spaces that have the ability to impact people emotionally.
Uh, but we come at them from different sides and I, I think that there's a kind of, um, relationship between, um, what she does so well that's so different from what. My approach would be that make us both sort of better at what we do.
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: Um, and, uh, but I, I would, she's, Alexandra is just in intuitively uh, creative.
Um, but she also I think has an outlook that we talk a lot about in the studio, which is probably part of the thing that defines us as a group the most, our work the most. And I would describe that as just a point of view around. How one [00:16:00] lives. And, and You know, part of her, You know, I think what Alexandra brings so easily is a sense of kind of unpretentious refinement, kind of approachable luxury that, um.
That has an ease to it. And I think it's the unpretentiousness of the whole thing that made me sort of, um, think that, um, there's a, a way in which we can extend that vision into different kind of. Um, areas, uh, when I say like almost like different areas of the world where luxury is perceived very differently, like this idea that luxury can have a voice, um, that in Hong Kong is different from in London.
Um, but there are sort of underlining sort of attributes to it. There's, You know, the details matter. The, You know, the, the, um, the [00:17:00] small scale things matter and actually when it comes down to it, um. It does, You know, luxury has to be, um, kind of functional in a, in a way before it's actually, uh, You know, um, meaningful, I guess.
Um, sometimes I think, You know, the, the work, um, that maybe in the early part of my career was focused a a lot around what I would call kind of aspirational luxury, um, and. It's different that comes from a different place. You know, this idea about Well, I, I would like to sort of live like a king. That's a different kind of beginning point than to say what I really want to create is a luxurious space where I'm going to find a sense of, um, um, uh, inspiration.
That comes from a, it's not trying, I'm not trying to be like someone else. I'm trying to live in, I'm trying to recenter [00:18:00] myself around a different sort of series of ideals. And that is kind of the beautiful thing that, that, um, I have enjoyed, You know, in, in our, our work here at, at Champ Palomo and, um. You know, it's a royal we that is working on, on this.
You know, one of the things that I think has been sort of most amazing is this idea about, um, um, it takes an incredible team to try to, to, to, to do this.
Dan: Well, yeah, and I, I wanted to talk about that because from your experience and Alexandra's experience and specifically you, I would say as a, as a teacher or professor, right. Um, you described earlier as far as the studio. a mosaic of talent, right? So Alexander May approach something some way, you might as well, but none of that matters if you don't have this mosaic of talent in the studio.
And so I [00:19:00] was, I was wondering because of the, the projects and the team and I like, I don't know, I just feel always so welcome and at home whenever I'm there mostly just because it's such a great team. Um, how do you intentionally and how have you intentionally built that team or continue to build that team? Um. Over the years since you've been there, and what do you think has carried on, um, from before you were there till when you were there to, to even today?
Ed: Well, uh, first of all, this sort of, it, I think everyone has to have, everyone has to be motivated by the same sort of goal is, which is to create spaces that are, um. That are moving soulful. Um, and there's a kind of sense of common mission. Um. The, the, the mosaic of talent that we have in, in the studio requires people with incredible facility like, You know, there's no one person who can do all the things that it takes to do what is required to deliver the work that we deliver.
Um, You know, [00:20:00] we have, there are people here in the studio who bring incredible knowledge and talent into things like drapery, uh, into things like. You know, um, tailoring furniture, and I say that in the context of, um, really being able to think about and shape things down to the small degree, and those become the things that people touch.
Um, we have a textile designer, uh, within the studio, You know, as we think about sort of. Um, creating, um, those elements, again, those, all those sort of touch points, but it's about performance as, as well at the same time, things that, that have to be durable. Um, things that have to be comfortable. Uh, these are sort of elements that a.
One doesn't learn about in architecture school, no one, um, no single person can, I think, bring together all those attributes to perform in the, in the way that they need to, which isn't, You know, the service of these kind of larger sort [00:21:00] of ideas about how one lives.
Dan: Hmm. And what do you think from your experience as a teacher, like how did you, how do you bring that into, is evolve that mosaic or create new mosaics? Like how, how do you as a, a teacher bring that into the studio?
Ed: Well, I think that, um, You know, I would define my, my own career as sort of one focus around continuous education. But, um, one of the things that I learned when I was teaching was this, um, idea that every semester you were dealt 20 students, You know? Uh, for in a design class. Um, and what was fascinating about it was that although you're teaching essentially the same thing, you would see vast differences that, You know, one group was capable of inspiring.
Uh. You know each other to produce really high level work, really. [00:22:00] And they would, you would see them advancing to a super high level, whereas other groups might not have developed that sort of same dynamic in a positive kind of way. And so one of the things that I learned, um, was that the group, um. Ethos, if you will, or this kind of the EQ of the group really matters.
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: Um, And so trying to, um, bring together people, uh, who are capable of working collaboratively together, who believe that, um, as a group we can produce something. You know, it's like that, that idea about the, uh, You know, the, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. This is sort of an important sort of aspect, um, in, in our, in our work.
And I really do believe that, um, this is part of our own secret sauce that sort of drives us to, um, um, to, to, to do what [00:23:00] we do. 'cause at the end of the day, Dan, You know, this, like, this is everything that we do is really hard. None of this is easy. Um, and. I try to talk about that a lot in the studio. 'cause we, we come up against things.
Um, you might come up with the most beautiful idea that you're really, everyone in the team is really passionate about and that something's going to happen. And aspects of that idea are not no longer going to be realizable most often for, for reasons that are not outside of our control. Something happened, this material's not available in the timeframe.
What does that sort of mean? And in the context of. Design. Like one, actually one of my mentors once told me, said, he goes, You know, design is an act of volition and it's a really kind of powerful statement, but it's, You know, it's about the relationship between things and what happens when those things start to change.
Um, And so, You know, I think [00:24:00] that the way in which we can most be successful is in developing a culture that that is. Not just resistant to change 'cause it is going to happen, but that it's willing to embrace change. And I think sometimes when you look at writers, like a writer will say, well I have this love hate relationship with my editor.
Right. They, 'cause sometimes I think that what we have to do is see those changes as an opportunity to introduce editing that might actually end up with a solution that is stronger than what we started off with. It may not be what we want. Right.
Dan: yeah, so I, I like the idea of the editor and I, I'm gonna, I might be taking some of my own words, but this is just kind of a feeling that I've gotten in speaking with you, um, over time. But, okay. So as far as. Alexandra, Alexandra, the founder. You CEO, you have your furniture, space planning, textile, drapery, all the different [00:25:00] specialists on the mosaic.
Right? But so I, when I hear founder, CEO, I think of like hierarchy, I also get the feeling from you, from the editing perspective, that you've also spent so much time trying to make your organization. As flat and free and self-correcting as possible. So it's kind of like at odds with each other when you think about that.
But I'm all, I don't know, I don't know if you said flat or if I'm making that up in my brain, but how do you, how do you build that so that you can kind of reshuffle or, um, play the mahjong with the mosaic tiles every time for every new project? So you're, you're self correcting and optimizing for that.
Ed: Well, sometimes it's the Mahjong is adjusting me and moving me around. I mean, it's, so, it's not, it's not really about, um, but flat is the goal.
Dan: Yeah.
Ed: rid of every title in the world, in, in our studio, um, I would, You know, it's sometimes, You know, the structure is required for client [00:26:00] relationships and other things, but we try to do our best to not let that get in the way.
Um, ultimately the thing that's most important to me is this idea that the. Best ideas go forward that we're, we all need to be capable of grabbing onto an idea that might not be ours and pushing it to develop it to its highest possible level. Like the, You know, this, this idea of the preciousness of an idea, the, the preciousness of pushing a design solution, um, that.
Tidying, You know, tightening up the relationship between those things. Um, even sometimes when we don't control, You know, what some of those variables are that are driving us in, in this, the last thing someone wants to do is walk into a project and go, well, yeah, that was because this didn't happen. Like, you can't have apologetic moments
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: the design.
Sponsor: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that [00:27:00] consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.
Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.
Dan: so give us an example of a, of a recent project or a, or a challenge on a project where that hierarchy to just be oxymoronic, um, really came to. To the, to the rescue in the sense that the best idea did come forward and you were able to delight all stakeholders.
Ed: I'll give you an example from today. We're, we're working on, uh, with a brand new client working on sketches for a sales center for a building that's not designed yet. Um, and as we're working through, um, You know, we're looking at very experiential ideas [00:28:00] about how someone would walk into a space and start to experience the attributes of a project that's not fully designed yet.
It's not even. You know, um, and, um, You know, one of my colleagues, um, were struggling with this one area came up with a really strong idea about, well, this needs to be this way, and then all these other things happen experientially,
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: You know, done. Let's, You know, that's the, that is the direction. And it was a moment of clarity.
Um, and, um, You know, kind of. Brilliance in the moment. And I think that's what's required sometimes to, to push things forward. It doesn't, um, honestly, if the postman walked in with a good idea, I would take that idea and the, the, and the group needs to be able to support that. I, You know, not that, um, it can't be so precious that it has to come from.
You know, from somebody, like if every idea had to come from me, our work would be considerably less [00:29:00] interesting. Um, than it can is when it comes, You know, through the, through the, the group that we have. That's our, yeah.
Dan: One of the things you also mentioned, um, in an earlier conversation we have is just that luxury, um, is really about anticipating needs. Right? And I think what you, what I think what you just shared there as far as coming up with this one concept for that sales center that kind of helped fixed everything else. How do you design for something? When you're trying to anticipate the needs, when the guest hasn't even like articulated yet, is that a, is that like a prime example or are there other, how, how do you talk? How do you design for anticipating a need?
Ed: Well at this, this is a sort of, one of those attributes of sort of luxury is, and I'll talk about sort of, You know, one of the places where one could, the best example of this is in a bathroom. How many times have we gone into, it could be a hotel, it could be a house, or whatever. [00:30:00] And the bathroom is laid out so that it looks like it was easy for the contractor to build, but it's, but it's almost impossible to turn on the water without getting soaked.
Or you can't find the place where your towel is after you come out of the shower or whatever it is. Those are all examples of the failure to anticipate need. Um, so those are all, You know, those are the things that we try to look towards. You know, it's like, um, um, I think, You know, sometimes it's the placement of a chair in front of a window with that provides a moment of comfort that that's the anticipated need.
This idea that, You know, design should be able to elevate, um, and. Trying to, You know, design is a relationship between different things. Why do certain combinations of things provide us with more satisfaction? You know, don't know. Right. But I do know that it, that certain combinations in certain settings are, um, You [00:31:00] know, are highly successful and can be highly successful.
And that's different almost for every different project that one works on. So it's the pursuit of those ideas. It's the pursuit of those. Relationships that start to sort of anticipate need. And at that point you start to set up the conversation for what can actually be real luxury, not just sort of the appearance of luxury.
Um, and, uh, You know, I mean, in a hotel, at the end of the day, service is the only real differentiator, right? Of luxury design can support that service. And a lot of times what we look to do is to. You know, figure out what service we want to create that would feel differentiated. And then design the entire room around that moment, this idea, You know, that, that the, You know, that the, the room design should fit the glove, You know, should be the glove on the hand of the sort of service idea.
Um, and those two, You know, when you get [00:32:00] to that point, then you start creating this sort of thing that everyone talks about. But very few people, very few deliver on, which is that authentic experience.
Dan: And perhaps that hearkens back to that first W project with the bed being an island in the middle of the room where you kind of have to walk around the headboard. I don't know if that would be luxury necessarily, but is there a, a, a small detail in a recent project that had an outsize a, a small, I guess, if you were looking to anticipate the guest's needs, was there a small detail that you focused in on that had like a asymmetric or, or outsize impact on what that guest experience would be?
Ed: Well, sometimes the, the, um, the strategy that is developed is a way of, um, taking something that would normally be, uh, perceived as a negative and turning it to your, to your greatest strength. So, I mean, the W bed, that one that we were talking [00:33:00] about was an example of taking super small room size and at least turning into a kind of memorable surprise, hopefully in a good way.
Um, uh, recently we worked on the renovation of the Armitage Hotel in Beverly Hills. Um, and it, it was a building that was a. Originally built as a residential building with very, very low floor to ceiling heights, like seven feet, four inches or something. It's probably not even legal today to make a ceiling that low.
Um, but it, so, and their lobby was never going to be the big, large sort of common experience that one finds in so many other spaces. It was really always going, You know it, but, but. It had the opportunity to become a different type of hotel focused around the idea of intimacy. And so as we started concepting out that as a space, the idea was to emphasize and play with the smallness and this idea about sort of crafting space that could cater [00:34:00] to their guests in a very different way by making them feel totally, um, at home in that small space.
Dan: I need to go there. When did it, when did that open post renovation?
Ed: It opened last year. Yeah.
Dan: I haven't, I haven't been in to check it. I've been meaning to look every time I'm back in
Ed: It turned out really nice. I mean, some, some of it had to do with creating, You know, visibility from space to space and sort of creating this idea of discovery. Um, and, You know, using that notion of sort of intimacy and discovery, uh, we crafted the restaurant turns out is really quite beautiful.
Uh, but we also created like this small service moment. This idea of taking their concierge was fantastic by the way, and crafting a room around that space. You know, and then, You know, as a kind of consequential idea of that, the furniture feels very residential and very, You know, um, You know, scaled in a different kind of way.
And, You know, the, the design, the small scale elements are all in support of this sort of idea.
Dan: Hmm. [00:35:00] Um, one other thing I'll say about your team is you've. Had such an incredible team that had been there for, so like, just very tenured. Um,
Ed: Yeah.
Dan: some, I'm always amazed by the firms also where some people leave and come back. Um, but you seem to have this and also just keeping people engaged and growing over time. How do you do that? Like what's your secret sauce in there?
Ed: Well, um, first they're really, uh, I, I love, um. I love my teammates. Um, my colleagues are amazing. Um, I think that, um, we've really tried to focus around creating a creative culture in the studio, and I think it's, hopefully it's one that makes us each kind of feel. That we can be comfortable in, in this space.
Comfortable exchanging ideas. Um, [00:36:00] when it comes down to it, there's a lot of sort of creative anxieties. We're working through projects. We all feel it. Um, You know, is this gonna be good enough? Is this, You know, You know, is, is this what I want? You know, what I was hoping that this would be? Um, and we put a lot of pressure on each other and things happen.
Things pop up. Um, and how can we create, You know, part of it is having a group of great colleagues around each of us where we can say, Hey, listen, this is what I'm looking at. And they can say, well, let's look at what happened over here and here's how we, we looked at that. Maybe there's a clue here. Or talk to this person.
They have, You know, they helped me out, You know, to get through. Um. Or better understand what the underlying factors were, or here's just a great product and, and it helped us resolve this. So it's, it has to do with creating, with sharing, uh, creating a culture that is motivated around excellence in [00:37:00] design at all levels.
Dan: Yeah, I get that. And I like I thinking about the anxiety, I think everyone suffers from anxiety from minor. To major. Right. And throughout the course of their day life, whatever. And while that can be, um, I don't know, uh, crippling in many way in for many people, um, but I think it's, I found that that anxiety, whenever I do get that feeling, it's usually my body telling me something, right?
And I just have to learn how to listen and not fight it. How is that anxiety or feeling? you in your, in your career, or how have you helped people on your teams work through that anxiety?
Ed: Well, I mean, often that's the right feeling. Sometimes it's just sort of a question about sort of, um, is this good enough? Did this meet, You know, we, we have high expectations for the work that we're doing, And so when we set the bar for ourselves very, very high. [00:38:00] Um, sometimes I think we have to give each other a break around that to kind of understand that, um, as a group we're capable of doing work that is, You know, amazing.
Um, that the solution that we're likely, I think at some point and, and, and my life, I crossed a, a threshold where I said, okay, I don't know the answer to this, but that's totally okay. I'm gonna figure it out 'cause I've figured out lots of other things to get to this point. Um, And so there's this kind of a confidence that one develops knowing that you don't know all the answers, but we're capable of finding the answers.
So that's one way, You know, that that's one way of sort of putting aside another way, honestly, is just kind of recognizing that, um, You know, I'm not sure that this is the right answer. Um. And so let's go test out some other things, but do it with the [00:39:00] knowledge that, and the self-confidence that at the end of the day, it's gonna be better than what most others are capable of getting to be.
Dan: I think step one in that of what you just shared right there, is just that idea of vulnerability and just. Expressing that you're unsure. There's so many people that are, have a fear of expressing that, and I think as a teacher it's really important to foster that. maybe that's like what it is in that flat organization where you're creating those pathways of dialogue of just saying, it's okay if you don't know.
Like that's why we're all here. And
Ed: Yeah,
Dan: the value of a flat
Ed: I, I think part and parcel with that idea about the sort of the flatness is this idea that everyone should feel ownership in what we're doing,
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: right? So, um, You know, that's something, You know, that, that we try to share everyone working on. Projects here in the studio needs to feel, You know, a sense [00:40:00] of ownership around it.
There's another sort of aspect that people don't talk very much about in terms of, You know, what we do in terms of interior design. Uh, but that's the service component. You know, at the end of the day, ours is a service business. People are coming to us, You know, they, they, You know, if we don't know the answer to something.
Um, they're coming to us 'cause they think that we're capable of solving it and we usually are,
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: know, in terms of being able to put your head together to, to think through something. And things don't always go right sometimes. That's the moment, You know, at which the only thing that matters is what you do next.
You know, solve help, help solve the problem, help um, be a good listener.
Dan: So speaking of what comes next, and again, I, I, I don't know, nothing is as easy as it seems, but it would seem to me that with the team that you've built and the [00:41:00] portfolio that you have, um, you get a lot of incoming opportunities, like I would say the pick of the litter. You're working on some of the best projects consistently. the world. And that's the envy of many firms, um, to be a part of. Um, and to emulate the, the work that you've done. And it, it's pretty, I mean, it's impressive. So as you have all these inbounds and you're also out there looking for the right project as far as what comes next, what are those projects or clients or collaborations that know, really get you excited to work at and. Like, if you could, if you could get that, um, Harry Potter sorting hat to, to, to sort all the different opportunities out there. What's the, what are the best one? What are the ones that you're, you as a, as a firm, are most attracted to?
Ed: Well, the first thing to say is that it's, um, You know, this is totally a group effort, right? You gotta, you have to circle back to that. So, um, I think one of [00:42:00] the things that we set out for, You know, is kind of a, a mantra in the studio is that we're not about, we're not after world domination, right? I don't wanna design everything in the world.
I would like for us to be able to design a small number of really interesting things. And they don't have to be big projects. They can be small projects, but they, but the, um, what we look for is, um, um, we, our ideal client might not know exactly what it is that they want something to become. Right. The, um, they, um, they know that they want to function at a high level, um, and they're, they're committed to, You know, sort of ideas about experience.
You know, ultimately if it's a hospitality project, definitely. But I mean, sometimes the work, the [00:43:00] projects that we're doing are oriented towards, You know. Residents or sort of club members, people who have, um, an expectation of delivering a high level of service to a group of client, to their clients that mean a lot to them.
They're not just trying to collect anybody from, You know, to come and spend a dime in the space. They're looking to leave people with strong. Memories and impressions about something. And I, it's, it's, it always feels like it works out better when someone doesn't have too strong of an idea. In other words, we're gonna go on a journey together and neither of us have a a totally lockdown preconception of what the outcome's going to be.
Um, those are amazing projects.
Dan: Yeah. I, I tried to keep hash marks on my notebook here of how many times you said group and team and just everyone working together, [00:44:00] and that idea of the, um, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. And really, if you're doing everything the right way. The whole should be greater than the sum of the parts.
It's a, every individual is accretive to
Ed: Yeah.
Dan: total organization. And while designing luxury residences and, and hospitality projects and other things around the world, in theory, you're not saving lives. But you're making lives better. You're creating memories, and you're putting a stamp on that. But one thing that I am intrigued by, and I talked about this at the top of the show, was your dedication to the preservation of these 80 plus year old aircraft, the C four.
C 47 was it?
Ed: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: And in your profession. You're not necessarily saving lives, but flying around in these 80 plus year old, 90-year-old aircraft that [00:45:00] you're part of a team and you better hope that that team is better than the sum of its parts. So how did you find your way into that? What is like, what is the draw and how has your experience in preserving these amazing pieces of history helped inform your, your vocation?
Ed: Well, um, so I have to say like two of the very kind of oldest passions that I've had in my life were sort of architecture and design and aviation. Uh, and it, and I don't know why, uh, it dates back to just kind of, um. My youngest days, I was always making things, um, always very interested in airplanes and flying things.
I built models, I mean, made leg, You know, built Lego and, You know, erector sets and everything that, You know, it was always a part of my life. But this idea about sort of aviation was always kind of, uh, um, an important sort of passion and. [00:46:00] None of us really know what, You know, what drives those things. So, um, I started flying when I was in college and I would, You know, take up a work study job and as soon as I had enough money, I'd go take a flight lesson.
Uh, I learned to fly, um, in Ithaca, New York and, uh, over the Finger Lakes, which is just a really incredibly and beautiful area, and sort of later in life, um, You know, as I, I worked in different parts of the world. I had to set the aviation side. Aside. Um, and eventually it, You know, came back and, um, I had a flight instructor who introduced me to a group called the Tuni and Foundation that has a, uh, a C 47, which was a twin engine airplane.
Um, that was a, the military version of a DC three. It was a really. Beautiful design airplane, beautiful lines. Uh, but this plane pulled gliders on D-Day and it was, uh, it participated in all the major invasions in, in [00:47:00] Europe. And, um, last year I, I, uh, actually got type rated and, and now fly it as a co-pilot, um, for the foundation.
And, um, I. It's kind of an amazing experience. I mean, for me, I look back at the sacrifices that this generation, uh, who, who fought in World War II made for the rest of us, and that this idea of the freedoms that we enjoy, the sacrifices came at the expense of, um, a lot of very selfless people. Um, so for me it was also a time when, I mean, I look back at it now and I say it was a time when it, it certainly appeared that, um.
There was a kind of cohesion around doing the right thing. And so I'm, I found myself a little bit nostalgic, You know, uh, for that. But, um, You know, I also had, um, the, the couple who lived across the street from where I grew up [00:48:00] were sort of our grandparents and the two of them, uh, fought in the war. Um, And so there's, I think I, You know, there's an aspect of this that is the, a me, You know, in, in their memory.
And, You know, she was. A sergeant in the army who taught soldiers how to swim so they could survive the liberty ships that were going overseas and eventually ended up touring as, um, an Agitant and with Eisenhower. Uh, and they saw probably some of the most horrific parts of, You know, uh, You know, what happened during the, the war.
Her husband was an infantryman who fought in the Battle of the Bulge and ended up as an interpreter at the Nuremberg Trials. Um. So while I was living overseas, when I would come home, they'd ask me, You know, so like, is it, You know, have they got it back together yet? What's, You know, they saw, they witnessed what I saw with amazement, they saw in utter destruction.
Dan: Hmm.
Ed: And so, You know, these are sort of part of the fundamental memories that I had sort of [00:49:00] growing up of, um, just this kind of reverence for history, uh, and the people behind it. And, um, so I, I had the pleasure of, um, uh, in the summer of 2024, the foundation took the aircraft back, flew it back across the Atlantic for the 80th, um, anniversary of the D-Day invasion, um, and the 75th anniversary of the Berlin Airlift.
And I had the pleasure of being part of the flight crew that flew the plane back across the Atlantic. And so we're talking about a twin engine. Very slow airplane. It took us three days, 28 hours over three days to make our journey back across. And I did it with, uh, um, there were five of us in the, in the aircraft at that time.
Really wonderful team of people. Um, and it's the same sort of picture. We all worked together to make this happen. Um, and working in unison. And it takes, um, You know, aspects of [00:50:00] precision. Um, and, um. Aspects of sort passions, right? For what it means and a certain amount of determination. But it was a total adventure.
It was, um, it was frigid. We crossed the Northern Atlantic, um, through Prestwick, Scotland to Iceland and then to Goose Bay and Canada. Um, and, um. This is, You know, I think it was the 26th of June, so Right. You know, some of the longest days of the year. Um, but it was minus 20 degrees Celsius inside the aircraft as we, You know, made our way very slowly across the North Atlantic.
Dan: Oh
Ed: Um, and it made me realize, again, just the, the level of sacrifice that the people who came before us have, have, You know, what they went through is small glimpse of what they went through to, to secure the freedoms that, You know. Sometimes we seem to take for granted.
Dan: A hundred percent. I remember sharing this with you a couple years [00:51:00] ago, but taken my kids to Normandy and just walked the beaches and seen everything and taken tours around there. Uh, my, and also having grown up in a home with my mom, my dad, my sister, my grandmother, my great-grandmother and her boyfriend, um, who fought in World War ii, and they all lived through the depression in World War ii. I would always hear stories. I loved it. And when I had history class and I had to write a paper, I could just go into their part of the house and ask them. Hey, what happened? And then I, I, I didn't have to go to the library, I could just hear it from them, but I also get the feeling that, and I'm so happy that you're preserving this and keeping this memory alive.
'cause with my kids, when I left Normandy, I just got the feeling that, after 80 years we collectively forget all those horrors. And it's really important. I think that, um. We keep those alive and we keep telling those stories because that was, [00:52:00] that was a pretty crazy time of just like full on mechanized adversaries going up against each other with
Ed: Yeah.
Dan: supply chains behind all of them
Ed: yeah, when we were in, in, in Viesbaden for the 75th anniversary of the Berlin Airlift, I, there was a speech that was given by the Lord Mayor of Viesbaden, and he talked about how there was a moment, You know, just a few years after the war had ended, where two peoples who had been at each other's throats, uh, in a vicious war, um, how the, how.
The allies came together to support Berlin at a time when the Soviets were trying to choke it off, and he, he talked about how that kind of altruistic act, um, was something that, that. Defined, kind of an [00:53:00] enduring friendship were his words, You know, from that moment. And it made me think that, You know, we all, You know, it's easy to be cynical about the world today, but all it takes is doing the right thing to turn the tide of this entire relationship.
Um, and it was a really heartwarming message and I wish, um, that. More Americans could hear this and hear, You know, and, and hear the, the, the, the deep, You know, the, the appreciation and, and, and that kind of, this idea about enduring friendship, uh, that would stem, You know, from, You know, adversaries, vicious adversaries.
Um, and how doing the right things can can change.
Dan: Yeah.
Ed: can be an agent of change and what a beautiful idea, You know, that is in the world today. And You know, here we are, You know, it's like I think about what we're doing, You know, in the studio today, this idea about sort of, You know, just focusing around beauty and experience and sort of [00:54:00] defining, You know, trying to control the things around immediately around us and think sometimes it'd be really nice to try to, You know, You know, again, this idea about, You know, uh, leadership sometimes involves, um.
Being the bigger person, You know, in the relationship and, and giving, You know, back in some ways through, You know, inspiring other people to do the right thing.
Dan: Yeah. yeah. And I, I'm just grateful you're doing that. Um, I'm grateful that you're, um. At the helm of your flat organization, um, and helping build this mosaic because I just appreciate all the work that you are doing have done. The team that you've built and the projects that you've worked on are fantastic.
And anyone wanted to learn more about you or Champ Palomo, um, what's a good way for them to connect?
Ed: Well, our website, champ palomo [00:55:00] design.com is always a good place to start. And I'm on LinkedIn, um, and, uh. Yeah. Thanks Dan. Just great conversation today and I've enjoyed, uh, being on the podcast with you today.
Dan: I've enjoyed having you as well, so thank you, ed, and also to all of our listeners, if you guys weren't turning in, uh, tuning in every time, we wouldn't be at almost episode 250. So I appreciate you and it allows me to, You know, get the energy from all these amazing guests that I speak with and, and share their life experience and knowledge with all of you.
If You know anyone that could benefit from this conversation or might be inspired by it. Please pass it along. We grow a lot by word of mouth. And don't forget to smash that subscribe button and like, and leave comments. We appreciate it. It helps with all the growth, uh, and thank you and we'll catch you next time.
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