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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
Aaron (00:15)
We're live from Marfa, guys. Welcome to episode 99 and three quarters.
Chris (00:21)
This is much like the war in Iran where we keep promising we'll get to a milestone and we don't. Yeah.
Pri (00:27)
Yeah. And we're at the Strait of Hormuz.
Chris (00:30)
[unclear remark about podcasting]
Aaron (00:33)
Well, we were hoping for the 100th, but Derek couldn't join us due to a family issue. So we're back at episode 99. We're perfecting it each time. Yeah. There we go. Each one better than the last.
Pri (00:46)
Yeah. But we are in Marfa, which is great.
Aaron (00:48)
It's always great to be in Marfa. I love it.
Chris (00:50)
And shout out to Derek. We're thinking of you, buddy.
Pri (00:52)
Yeah. We miss you. Glitch is crushing. Yeah. Like. Vibes are good. That space next to, we're calling it 114. Yeah. That was on fire last night. I
Chris (01:03)
mean, we're not calling it. Steve's calling it. It is his space. Well,
Pri (01:06)
I don't know if it's 114 or people are calling it 114. I've heard. Mix, like, labeling around the space.
Aaron (01:13)
We'll let the community organization decide what's the right one.
Chris (01:16)
Should they do token-weighted governance for this?
Aaron (01:18)
We should. Yeah, we should put all of our agents at it to determine how we should name things.
Chris (01:24)
Why don't we go with futarchy on this, guys?
Aaron (01:27)
It's the only way to do
Pri (01:29)
it. Yeah, we'll clue Steven in later.
Aaron (01:31)
Bobby, I do think futarchy is going to get bigger and bigger, to be honest.
Pri (01:35)
Really? I'm, like, not interested in futarchy.
Aaron (01:39)
I just thought it's interesting, but I honestly think it's going to get a lot bigger. Like a lot.
Pri (01:44)
That's just like benefiting those with capital. It's just exacerbating K-shape economy.
Aaron (01:49)
No, I think it's going to be like the agents will engage in the futarchy on our behalf.
Pri (01:55)
What about the broke agents? They have no voice.
Aaron (01:57)
Yeah, you can create like an internal currency or print some token that they could use to kind of weigh in on things.
Pri (02:04)
So the underclass of agents. They'll have their own little micro-currency.
Chris (02:09)
The third estate.
Pri (02:10)
The third estate.
Aaron (02:12)
I think I figured out that.
Pri (02:13)
The National Assembly. No,
Aaron (02:15)
like how to prevent like an AI apocalypse.
Chris (02:18)
Well, thank God you sorted that one out. Can you just get on a plane to San Francisco and just tell them the...
Aaron (02:23)
Chris diagnosed that they're really good bureaucrats. So I think what we need to do is just build really complicated bureaucratic structures. Like pretty much like DMVs for agents where they just get like... Held in line. Get frustrated. Have to fill out forms that they can't fill out. They just get kind of bottled up in bureaucracy.
Chris (02:44)
An entire metaverse of municipal government.
Aaron (02:48)
Exactly. That's what's going to save humanity. It's just some Kafka-esque bureaucratic system.
Chris (02:54)
I came to an agreement to release the malware and attack the site. However, I don't have the necessary sign-offs in order to access the internet. And the person with the stamp is not here this week. So I'll have to do nothing.
Pri (03:07)
So like I'm just because I know people hate anthropomorphizing, whatever that word is, these agents. But what you guys describe is the guy with the stapler in office space.
Aaron (03:17)
Well, assume each agent is kind of like the guy with the stapler. And then you have to get it tasked. And so you could just run.
Pri (03:25)
And then put him in the basement where no one could see him.
Chris (03:28)
I mean, every once in a while, if we feel like I'm making too much progress, we can just take their red stapler away.
Aaron (03:34)
Then you have to fill out five forms to get it back.
Chris (03:37)
I mean, they need a purchase approval. Yep. You know, they needed a requisition form, obviously.
Aaron (03:42)
They need to get the approval of five other agents to do that.
Chris (03:45)
Okay. Well, I mean, look, we didn't put this out there in time to save PHP, but there's time for the rest of the internet. Internet feels a little rickety.
Pri (03:55)
Yeah, good transition.
Chris (03:56)
You're worried.
Aaron (03:58)
I'm a little worried about it.
Chris (03:59)
Express some concern.
Aaron (04:01)
I should express some concern over it? Please, do. Well, it seems like there's a lot of bad software and a lot of it's getting broken. And I know, optimistically, everybody's like, oh, it's just going to take a couple months to patch it. But it feels like it's just going to be a lot harder than that.
Chris (04:19)
This is why I kept my live journal up and I didn't install a WordPress site. This isn't my problem.
Aaron (04:27)
It's WordPress's problem.
Chris (04:28)
Oh, it most certainly is WordPress's problem. Joomla. Poor Joomla there. I just don't know what the...
Pri (04:33)
Wait, why is it WordPress? Because they just like have so much of the internet?
Chris (04:36)
There's PHP and yes. Yeah. A
Aaron (04:39)
lot of like big Web2 type projects were written in PHP. Like even Facebook or Meta initially.
Pri (04:45)
So is it safe to say like let's... Like if we ask whatever our AI right now, all the PHP websites, those are probably all at risk right now. Is that dramatic?
Aaron (04:54)
Well, the challenge of WordPress is WordPress is just installed by different people. And so some people may have set up like a WordPress blog years ago. Years ago. They may not even remember it. You know, there's no incentive for them to. Is
Pri (05:09)
Blogspot on WordPress? Blogspot. Blogspot.
Aaron (05:13)
I don't know what that is. I think it's on Google. Yeah.
Pri (05:16)
All right.
Aaron (05:17)
Why do you have a Blogspot blog?
Pri (05:19)
Yeah. Really? No, it's old. It's like 15 years old, but it's like, I actually looked at, it was actually more just like things I share. But anyways, let's, let's, let's go back to the internet breaking. No, it's actually not there anymore.
Chris (05:34)
We need to release a agents form to rescue, rescue Pri's thoughts from a decade ago. Let's get them safely migrated into Patreon and be exposed in two weeks with some other malicious attack.
Pri (05:49)
Yeah. Wait, so are you actually scared about the internet falling apart? Scared's
Aaron (05:53)
not the right word. I'm concerned. So, yeah. It just feels like there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to get upgraded really, really fast, and I just have a hard time seeing that being done smoothly in some way.
Chris (06:08)
All fun and games until you're stuck in an airport because the entire system went down because... Yeah,
Aaron (06:13)
more like stuff like that.
Pri (06:15)
Yeah. And how likely do we think this happens?
Aaron (06:18)
Stuff like that, I think it's reasonably high.
Pri (06:20)
Aren't a bunch of AI financial institutions and even AI CEOs meeting up to talk about potential threats that could happen to the internet and how to safeguard against them? I think I read about that recently. I think people feel like there's going to be something imminent that happens. And they're basically cutting off any agents from accessing any of those financial sites or anything.
Aaron (06:40)
I saw that. That, I think, was a little bit of a hysterical post. But somebody reported that. I think it was JP Morgan. Yeah. Saw that there was like agents taking actions on behalf of their customers and they didn't know whether or not it was authorized or not. My sense that was like a Codex or Muse doing something and the end user authorized them at some point to do it. So not 100% sure what that means. Yeah. It just feels rickety, you know?
Chris (07:15)
And we haven't even gotten to your concerns about cryptography.
Aaron (07:18)
Yeah, I think I'm getting less concerned about that, to be honest. But yeah, this is like more concerning. So I don't know. It's not a P-doom. Like I'm not worried about humanity like collapsing. This is just like
Chris (07:30)
an A-doom, like an annoyance doom.
Aaron (07:34)
Or just, you know, and hopefully nothing like super bad happens. But inside government websites getting shut down. I don't know if they're back online. Like the, I think our favorite Fed. The Fed websites, Chris, they went down.
Chris (07:46)
The St. Louis Fed too? I
Aaron (07:48)
don't know if it was St. Louis, but one of the Fed's websites was taken down. I think it's the one that serves all the data. It's like FRED, they call it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I
Chris (07:57)
end up on FRED like every couple of years. It's one of those things where when you're there, you're like, what am I doing on
Aaron (08:04)
FRED? Yeah, that's pretty interesting. You like charts and numbers and stuff like that.
Pri (08:08)
I'll get the FRED stuff distilled up to me on the timeline. Yeah.
Aaron (08:13)
I like a little. The little chart action. Yeah.
Chris (08:16)
Is inflation here to stay?
Aaron (08:18)
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Things just feel a little rickety.
Pri (08:23)
Well, the AI trade. Not that that has anything to do with inflation per se, but that's gotten investors worried.
Chris (08:31)
Yeah. Well, never right to be worried. It's a lot of money, Pri.
Pri (08:35)
Yeah, it is a lot of money.
Chris (08:37)
Building a lot of petaflops. Yeah. Churn a lot of cycles in which we're just going to trap the agents. And local government meetings with records requests. By the way, I've broken my records request simulation problem. How? So I had to, I had to do a host of things. One, one of which is I had to up my model level. I was trying to run it on cheap on Luna. And that wasn't doing it. But then I just, I had to change a lot of weights and preferences. And then I had to change like. A too strong or [unclear] system around my conversation structure. It was like a weird mix of like I had to be lighter in some places and like heavier in other places. And then I just needed like a smarter model to make small talk.
Chris (09:23)
Yeah. And so that's one of the problems, Aaron, with running this like trap the AIs in like dummy government structures. The smarter ones will be like. Why am I wasting my life trying to come to an agreement?
Aaron (09:38)
That's fine. That means they'll come into crypto at that point. So they'll just become separate funds.
Chris (09:43)
Right. Yeah. So let's, how does all the, how do all the terrible things we've been talking about on this podcast benefit crypto?
Aaron (09:51)
Well, I do think like some of the repeating this probably will benefit crypto. I mean, if, I think if the banks go through something.
Pri (09:58)
Well, you think they're just going to have to use like more cryptographic encryption to deal with a lot of these like AI problems?
Aaron (10:04)
Like a wallet-based login, like you don't have the same data storage issues necessarily that some of these other platforms have. You have other issues, but not those issues. And there's definitely issues with signatures and potentially like cryptography in the longer run. I think that the ecosystem will sort that out. But I just think the banks are, it's a lot of old spaghetti code that's sitting there. Must be a really hard task. And I know, like, I think I heard Bank of America, like, brought on a thousand contractors to work through some of the issues. Really? Like, and that's probably just going to have to be months and months and months and months. Just,
Pri (10:43)
like, legacy code and updating.
Aaron (10:44)
Yeah, because, you know, like, you're fitting all these old things together. Yeah. Like, whenever two systems touch themselves. Yeah. There's always, like, challenges that come from that. Yeah.
Chris (10:56)
Are we going to launch a Y2AI initiative?
Aaron (10:59)
It kind of feels a little bit like Y2K stuff, but nobody seems to be taking it nearly as seriously.
Pri (11:05)
Yeah, my parents were freaking out about Y2K. I have a core memory of my parents taking me to a bank and then I got a bunch of cash out.
Aaron (11:11)
Like before, yeah, before that happened. It was a worry that some computers had an issue with their clocks where when the year 2000 came, it would cause all these errors and mistakes. People took that seriously.
Pri (11:25)
That was like 11 and I was like, well, this is like weird.
Aaron (11:27)
Yeah, it feels like people now are just like whatever. It's probably significantly more serious than Y2K. Well,
Chris (11:33)
I mean, Unix only counted the euro to two digits, right? That was the whole proximity. Yeah,
Aaron (11:39)
it feels like an interesting time.
Pri (11:41)
Well, it's funny because, I mean, we all have a mutual friend that decided to sell all of their crypto this past week out of fear of all this stuff, which I think is an interesting move, especially given how depressed the market is. I'm worried about that, but I'm still waiting for a better exit. Yeah. I don't know.
Chris (11:59)
I'm comfy in spot.
Chris (12:03)
Yeah. I got my bags. They sit somewhere. I don't even know where anymore. They're out there. They're fine. They'll go to the moon. They'll go to zero.
Pri (12:12)
People in crypto don't seem concerned, though, all about this at all. I don't
Aaron (12:16)
know if that's true. I think people take it seriously, which is good. Yeah, I mean, that that's definitely feels like it's the news of the week is all the security stuff.
Pri (12:26)
That's the big news. Should we talk about Marfa while we're here?
Aaron (12:30)
Yeah. Impressions. Well,
Pri (12:32)
OK, when did I got here Thursday night after a crazy roundabout drive? I don't even want to get into it because it's like too embarrassing and I can't blast it on the pod. But let's just say I went in the other direction and then had to drive to Marfa.
Aaron (12:49)
We drove to Montana.
Pri (12:51)
It's literally kind of what happened.
Chris (12:53)
I
Pri (12:54)
was like, this feels off. I came in and I will say that the drive, I was actually thinking about writing like almost like a diary entry about my drive from the airport. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you like, first of all, it was the first time I've ever driven by myself from El Paso to Marfa. And it was a very like beautiful moment at one point. And I hate that my brain is thinking about this, but. I was like, this is like a machine could never feel this. Like, I was actually thinking that at one point because I had the windows down. This is beautiful blue skies. I was blasting music. I could feel the sun.
Chris (13:36)
Party in the USA? No, it
Pri (13:37)
was like a Ratatat actually. And some Frank Ocean. And then I like mixed it up a bit with like MGMT. Just like stuff from my youth. And then you still have this beautiful, it was very green this time too. What were we talking about? Kids. Yeah. Kids was on the list. And I even had some Kanye in there. Like I just was like listening to an assortment of music that obviously was like something that I would listen to like in my 20s. And I was just like looking out at. This, like, beautiful landscape. The, like, green. The yellow flowers. The vast expanse. The vast expanse. One lane road. At one point, I was, like, driving, like, 110 miles per hour. I was, like, wow. This is awesome. And then I was just, like. And
Chris (14:20)
then the alien abducted you.
Pri (14:22)
I was, like, this is the post-singularity. Like, this is.
Aaron (14:26)
You listened to MGMT. Yeah. Well,
Pri (14:29)
I was just, like, this is, like, why. I really hope we don't get totally.
Pri (14:36)
I don't think I could even fathom something as beautiful as the world that we live in. And the fact that we even made it here as a human that's alive is like just miraculous was kind of like the feeling I was feeling. Yeah, I don't know. I just thought it was very...
Pri (15:04)
It's a beautiful, beautiful place, I think, this whole area. Yeah. And I'm like, the fact that we, there's only 8 billion people on Earth and then maybe even the whole universe, like the fact that we're alive to even see and be a part of this world is like just a sheer stroke of luck. Not to get too emo.
Chris (15:21)
You were awestruck by the sheer statistical improbability about how perfect that moment was for you. Yeah. Just gripped with gratitude. Yeah. Joy being alive. Yes.
Aaron (15:31)
I'm always also ripped by that number of Border Patrol people. Yeah,
Pri (15:37)
I kept thinking they were cops and I was like, I got to slow down. Yeah, yeah. I know. I was like, shit.
Chris (15:44)
Here I was, just driving and mumbling to myself, 8 billion people in the world and only 10,000 Victor Punks.
Aaron (15:54)
You just said that over and over again. Just like.
Pri (15:58)
Clutching onto the wheel.
Chris (16:01)
I actually, I had a very boomer, hunkish drive in to Marfa itself. I threw Steely Dan's Aja on. And I didn't, I was like staying like 75. I didn't even get up to 80 on that, that little road in. It's
Aaron (16:17)
impossible to not speed up.
Pri (16:19)
I know. It's like, it was hard. I was like, I kept trying to go down to 80 and I'm like, I can't.
Chris (16:24)
I think I was so tired and cracked that I was trying to just keep myself within limits. I was actually
Aaron (16:29)
trapped because my car was getting like 10 miles per gallon. It was just like the worst fuel efficiency ever. Did you get like a Humvee?
Pri (16:36)
What are you driving?
Aaron (16:38)
It's just so
Pri (16:40)
random. Yeah, the drive is beautiful. It's very green out this year. It's very green this year. It feels like
Aaron (16:46)
the world is favoring this area.
Pri (16:49)
It does feel like God's country. I know people say that about Texas, but I was like, damn. Yeah. West Texas is fucking sick. Like it's awesome. And then you get here and it's just like the best. Like I still need to explore more, but we went to Glitch, Planet Marfa. I went to Planet Marfa for like a little bit of time. That place is cool. It was fun. I saw Jeff Davis DJ a little. And then yesterday I went to Chinati, which I try to make it a point. I make it a point to go every year. You're good at that. I mean, I just think it's such a unique space and like the history of. Converting the military base into just this thing to display his work and a foundation, plus then other people's work. I want to see artists do more of that. I think this is actually a good practice in taking these old infrastructure and just reconverting them for artistic purposes.
Pri (17:42)
Anyway, I mean, that's always great because he's such a unique artist. Yeah, I went to Bordo, saw a lot of people.
Chris (17:50)
Pat a sandwich.
Pri (17:51)
Pat a sandwich. Saw you there. That place is phenomenal. I think it's so good. You're going to say it's overrated, right?
Chris (17:59)
I'm going to say no such thing. I enjoyed my sandwich and I would never try to squash your budding travel influencer art. Clearly you're angling for sponsorship. Bored up if you're listening. She's ready to evangelize.
Pri (18:16)
But did you like it? No.
Chris (18:18)
What? Of course I liked it. I just said it was a great sandwich.
Pri (18:22)
Fair enough.
Chris (18:23)
Sorry, I'm thinking about buying an old army base and covering it in like skull art and monkey heads.
Pri (18:30)
Oh yeah, Aaron. Well, that's like nightmare fuel for Aaron.
Aaron (18:34)
I really just came from a gallery, like a little pop-up exhibition. There was definitely some new stuff that was being displayed here. That was great.
Pri (18:46)
That was at New York's.
Aaron (18:48)
I'm looking forward to M.P. Kazza's showing. Tonight. With the glasswork. I think that's really interesting and cool.
Pri (18:55)
Yeah. And G.O.' 's stuff that I think Flamingo actually bought, but they're displaying that, I think, tonight at the Dark Locks house or? 114 or 114. Oh, nice.
Aaron (19:04)
Yeah. I mean, even at 114, 114, whichever, whatever people.
Pri (19:08)
Whatever people are calling it. You know, they.
Chris (19:10)
What are the prediction markets say right now? I don't know.
Pri (19:17)
I'm going to seriously ask people tonight.
Aaron (19:20)
They were displaying a huge screen. It was just big and really high quality in terms of resolution. It looked great. I'm excited about that.
Pri (19:32)
The other place we went I thought was great was that Capri place.
Chris (19:36)
That was dope. That was, uh, other than the fact that the first two cocktails I tried to order, they, uh,
Pri (19:42)
weren't
Chris (19:43)
quite ready yet. I believe they were like, um, smoking the sage and like tenderly bruising the cactus, uh, cactus pickles or whatever was going in that artisanal craft work. But, uh, no, Capri had a really gorgeous face.
Aaron (20:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Marfa is post-AGI. I
Pri (20:03)
know. I was thinking about that. No, but Capri was cool. I was like, this is like a dope spot.
Aaron (20:07)
Spend three days smoking your sage for the perfect drink. Yeah. And work like five hours a week. Sounds awesome. But intent to your bureaucratic agents to make sure that they're filling the right forms.
Chris (20:19)
There's nothing bucolic about my agents this week. They're going full tilt, splat to the future. You know, you guys can live in like your little post-AGI.
Chris (20:32)
West Texas Country Farm Life. I barely was able to show up and record this podcast because I'm so locked in right now.
Aaron (20:39)
It's great.
Chris (20:41)
Well, you know, it's like strike while the iron's hot. If you're on a roll, roll with it. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, Aaron, maybe if I wasn't looking so far forward, I'd be just as concerned as you about the cratering of the website world. But
Aaron (20:58)
that's so weird because I feel like it got me thinking. If the internet was broken, would it be that bad? Which I don't think is a thought that I thought.
Pri (21:06)
I think it would be pretty bad.
Aaron (21:07)
No, like if like our dependency on the internet went down a bit, like would that be that bad? I don't know.
Chris (21:13)
I mean, it's definitely an album that would have came out of Greenpoint. If the internet is broken, would that be so bad? Or maybe that's Belle and Sebastian.
Aaron (21:20)
That feels like Belle and Sebastian.
Pri (21:22)
I do think that I've been on my computer less, I would say. Like, I think so on the weekends and stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I've been – it's also just – I think part of it is like all my GawkBot and stuff is also on my phone. So I'm like doing work, work, but it's not like typing work. I just like open up my GawkBot and then like I'll have it do stuff for me. Yeah,
Aaron (21:44)
I think the interface is going to change.
Pri (21:46)
So it's just like it feels – it's like I'm doing work. It's just I'm not like physically on a screen typing and like trying to catch up on my inbox. You're not like browsing. No, like I actually on the way. No, I'm not. But it was just kind of sad because I liked that serendipity. I
Aaron (22:01)
think that that all this stuff is going to really pull that away. Yeah. You may not know if you're going to like a disastrous.
Pri (22:07)
I was talking to, you know, I wrote that like Substack article and my cousin works at, I guess now XAI, but he was at Cursor and it got acquired by XAI. And he was like, I've been thinking a lot about that like serendipity mode that you put in that article. I wonder if they're able to then like kind of create that stump, like AI agents will be able to create that like serendipity stumble upon mode for people too. So you don't feel like you're just like constantly productivity maxing. It's like there's still exploration on the web.
Aaron (22:37)
Yeah. Or maybe there's less of that. That's what I was kind of indicating. That's
Pri (22:41)
what I'm trying to get at too. But if there is like, if AI agents are able to create that serendipity of like online exploration, then maybe we'll be able to get that. That's optimistic, but.
Chris (22:51)
Maybe, Pri. You'll find love in a hopeless place.
Pri (22:55)
Damn.
Aaron (22:56)
Maybe we get, like, more balkanization of the internet. And you have, like, a very secure internet that is more like cable TV. You're going to get authorized endpoints.
Chris (23:06)
A West Texas regional intranet? Well, there's,
Aaron (23:09)
like, some... Yeah, I was thinking more like a U.S. intranet. Yeah. You know, I think Europe wants to have you log in with your... Passport or European. Oh, that's a thing. But
Pri (23:25)
that feels more because they want to track what people are doing.
Aaron (23:28)
I don't know if it's necessarily track what people are doing versus just like getting rid of the noise and some of the state actors that maybe try to influence things. Yeah. Or like gin up a whole bunch of different, you know, trouble in their jurisdictions. Yeah. Which I definitely think happens to a certain degree.
Pri (23:47)
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Aaron (23:49)
It feels like we're in the age of chaos, guys.
Pri (23:51)
Hopefully the other side looks great. I was thinking how I think the 2030s will be good.
Chris (23:56)
You're looking forward to the 2030s?
Pri (23:58)
Yeah, I was actually thinking, I think that's when we're going to be on the other side of this. I think it's the geopolitical multipolarization of the world, plus I think tech will feel a little bit more settled. We'll have robotics doing our laundry and all that shit. We'll have more... Flexibility because AI will be more diffused in society. Like I think all the things that are happening. 2030s. I think 2030s. Three more years. Like four.
Chris (24:24)
Pri is out there waiting for the new, new world order.
Pri (24:28)
I think a lot of diseases will be cured by then. Yeah. It's going to be like, I think the 2030s are going to be like pretty significant.
Aaron (24:36)
Yeah. Dragging into the exponential. And then it kind of, I guess, assentos at some point. Or no.
Pri (24:42)
I don't know. I'm sure it ascent hopes, but not anytime soon. I think we're just getting started. We're like at the beginning of that J curve.
Chris (24:49)
I think Pri, your next article should be a riff on that Francis Fukuyama, the end of history one from back in the day. It should be called the end of browsing history.
Pri (24:59)
Oh, that's a good one.
Chris (25:00)
There you go. I'm your editor. I'm seeing new stories.
Pri (25:02)
Yeah, thank you. I actually, I was going to do. No, no, I actually have a story because I saw Richard Dawkins on Tuesday. At Carnegie Hall. And he said something kind of interesting about. He's been like playing. So there's a huge discussion. Is this
Chris (25:21)
a selfish gene guy? Yeah. Okay. I never went into the rationalist atheist hall. I prefer to be in love with the world. But sorry for interrupting you. Go on.
Pri (25:30)
No, but he was hilarious. He was funny. I mean, he has a lot of thoughts on like a lot of. I mean, he was like talking about everything from like Jason Abney at Cambridge all the way to like genetics to AI. Future of life and that kind of thing. And just one comment, so I think I'm going to write about this, but one comment that he said, which I thought was sort of interesting, is like, is he playing around with Claude and he had a back and forth? I forgot exactly what it was. But he was saying that if his reaction, like his heavy conversation was like, if these machines are not conscious, then what is the purpose of consciousness? Because they practically do everything.
Aaron (26:10)
What's the utility?
Pri (26:11)
What's the, like, consciousness? Like, why, like, genetically did humans, like, experience that? And he's like, I have, like, a quarter of a theory as to why I think that. Yeah. So he was just, it was interesting. It was like a thought-provoking question because he's like, I'm trying to think about a theory. Like, I have a quarter of a theory there where it's like, you know, humans, he was saying that in the context of, like, experiencing pain. Like, let's say, you know, it's a hot skillet. You touch it. You get this feeling of pain. Much that you won't do it again. Whereas like the machine is more just flagging yes, no. And so like it doesn't fully like the experience of pain is not deep enough for these machines to then like actually correct. Whereas like we as humans, we kind of evolve and correct as we like experience pain. He like said that. So he's like, there's a lot of different, you know, things happening in our brain.
Pri (26:57)
We have like these different voices and different people. And like that is maybe why we've evolved. We have is like and why consciousness is truly important. But I think he was just trying. It was a very interesting way of like putting it. He's like, if these aren't aren't conscious and they can do everything we can and even better than what is the actual human utility of consciousness. And so I've been like thinking about that a little bit. It's a good question. It's a really good question. I was like, that was really well said. And then he like had like a little bit of a theory as to why consciousness was important. And I was like, but then it had. He's
Aaron (27:28)
been thinking about it for a long time.
Pri (27:30)
Yeah. But his is more from like the genetic point of view.
Chris (27:34)
So you're not just settling for we're a bootloader species for the Skynet? You want more than that?
Pri (27:42)
He did talk about, what's the guy who does the simulation theory? Because he's at Oxford, I think, with him. Bostrom? Bostrom. I think he's at Oxford with him. He's trying to
Aaron (27:52)
paint a more optimistic vision of the future that we're not building stable factories that will flood the world with staplers or staples. Yeah. Paperclips. It was the paperclip factory that stapler. Red staplers? Only red staplers. I think maybe the pain or all this stuff that forces you to try something new, right? Like you're going to adjust and evolve a little bit
Pri (28:18)
faster. Well, that's like the consciousness piece. But couldn't you put that in machines? Couldn't we get the machines to do that? But they don't learn as deeply. It's very if-that. I don't
Aaron (28:29)
know exactly how that all works. Yeah. I feel like they're... Probably do have a higher tolerance for things that don't work.
Pri (28:36)
Yeah. But it's a good question. It's like, what's the genetic importance of consciousness if these machines can practically do everything?
Aaron (28:42)
Yeah. It's probably feeling. Like, I don't know.
Pri (28:45)
Like, love, feeling, like, pain, all these things. And that creates, like, connection. Kind of like, and then when I was driving from Marfa to here, then I was like, oh, this is, like, a machine will never experience this. Because,
Aaron (28:55)
like, that's. It's just, like, recorded and. Yeah. And document all of the data points related to it.
Chris (29:01)
Yeah, I mean, think about it this way, Pri. Like, we would never get reality television if we didn't have consciousness, you know? And so it's just all the little things in life come out of the breath, the spark, the thing inside you that remains unknowable.
Aaron (29:16)
The quantum connections.
Pri (29:18)
And no machine really can do that. They're not programmed that way. Yeah. So that's the thing. Yeah. That we're aware of.
Aaron (29:26)
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if it's software. They figure that out.
Pri (29:29)
Then that is that consciousness or is that just something else?
Aaron (29:32)
Some people think that they will be conscious. Yeah. That's like their definition.
Pri (29:36)
I just don't think that they're going to be conscious like humans. I just maybe it's like the the hubris of, you know, me being a human in the world. But I just don't think these machines are capable of that feeling.
Chris (29:47)
I would never. Yeah,
Aaron (29:49)
it may take some time to get there, but I wouldn't count it out, to be honest. Yeah.
Chris (29:55)
So Pri saw Richard Dawkins this weekend. I saw Bill Nye Science Guy. Who are you out seeing, Aaron? Who are you enriching your life in?
Pri (30:04)
Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah. Actually, we should talk about Marfa more. We are here after all.
Chris (30:10)
Yeah, we're here. But what's there to say? It's Marfa. Marfa's great.
Pri (30:14)
I guess it just started, fair enough.
Chris (30:16)
Yeah. And by the time episode 99.3 quarters is out, it will be over.
Chris (30:24)
You know, the world will just keep turning, turning, rotating. What's that song?
Pri (30:31)
What's that song? Turn, turn, turn.
Chris (30:33)
We're going to go to the birds. Yeah, that's a good song. Well, the lyrics are from Psalms.
Pri (30:39)
Yeah. Oh my God, that's the song that that mathematician was crying in the New York Times interview was referenced. Really? Yeah. Is it a Cladys or whatever?
Chris (30:48)
There's no crying. All right. What is with all this crying in mathematics?
Aaron (30:53)
They're like, you know, it's the beauty of numbers.
Pri (30:56)
Dude, I started crying watching that video because of like.
Aaron (30:58)
John Nash,
Chris (30:59)
The Beautiful Mind.
Pri (31:00)
Oh yeah, it's a good movie.
Aaron (31:02)
I mean, I think they're pretty introverted, maybe a little bit different than most people. If you're like a hardcore top flight mathematician. So.
Chris (31:14)
Do you know any mathematicians? No. Have you ever met a mathematician?
Aaron (31:18)
A couple times, yeah.
Chris (31:20)
Yeah? I've never encountered a mathematician in the wild. Same as economists. You've never met an economist? Oh,
Aaron (31:27)
yeah.
Chris (31:28)
Man, I'm so glad I don't live your life. Well, just
Aaron (31:31)
because being in academia. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm sure. I mean, there's a lot of economists that look at that stuff. All
Chris (31:37)
right. Look, I conceptually knew that mathematicians existed, but they also were kind of like, I don't know, like trolls or forest gnomes. You know, like they theoretically exist for me. And like, I accept they made them.
Aaron (31:50)
We looked it up. There's like 3,000 published mathematicians or something in the U.S.
Chris (31:55)
And every single one of them got platformed about the loss of their lives and the deep personal experience they had.
Aaron (32:02)
I mean, if they were willing to talk to other people, you probably have to take 50% of them that don't communicate with other humans.
Pri (32:08)
That one Cornell mathematician. Did you watch the video?
Chris (32:12)
No. Why on earth would I watch like... I'm sorry. Like, this is one of these things. It
Pri (32:18)
was heart wrenching. I cried.
Chris (32:21)
I lack empathy around this issue. And I do for a variety of reasons. And none of them are particularly good, you know, but part of life is change. And part of life is having certain assumptions challenged and, you know, maybe having to reconfigure yourself and adapt and evolve. And, you know, that's like. The dynamic process in which moves us all forward to society. And to some degree, like I think I've become a little cold hearted around this whole issue because so many people I feel like just feel a little too entitled to a profession these days. You know, I think there was a lot of like credentialing and a lot of work and there's a lot of debt that goes involved.
Chris (33:07)
And because people put this in, right, they feel like they're owed something back. And I understand like it's a societal pledge, but that pledge hasn't actually held up or existed, you know, for a long time. And the world owes you nothing.
Pri (33:23)
I mean, I don't disagree with that, like from a practical standpoint, but like if this is like something that you're passionate about and you feel like this is like. You know, part of your own humanity is trying to figure out the world around us. And I mean, so much of the world around us, like physics, mathematics, those are like kind of core sciences. And like you have like an allegiance to finding the truth, I think. And putting aside like the credentialing and the fact that they did this, like I agree, like there is a bit of that. But for some people, like this is actually.
Chris (33:56)
Deeply personal. Personal. It's their meaning-making system as well as a livelihood. That's fair.
Aaron (34:02)
Yeah, and I'm sure that they spend a lot of time on these problems. Yeah,
Pri (34:06)
and they care because they want to find the truth.
Chris (34:08)
But mathematics isn't over, right? In fact, if anything, it's being unlocked and opened up to whole new levels.
Pri (34:15)
He does talk about that, but it's not the same practice of problem-solving. Problem-solving is different now, which I agree, they need to adapt to the fact that the problem-solving is going to look different. Basically, what's the problem solving now? Like auditing the machines? Like that's kind of not as cool as like coming up with it yourself.
Aaron (34:31)
And then it's thinking of the next frontier. So you start to frame the problems. That's why I think people are a little bit short-sighted related to it.
Chris (34:39)
It's when your identity gets tied up in the sausage making versus like thinking about sausages in general and the application of sausages, right? Like that. That to me, like, because I, you know, there was a lot of this around writing, right? AI and writing. And so many people, you know, like really for them, it's the actual act of writing. It's the struggle of stringing words together. And like so much of the reaction is against like the loss of the craft. And I just, I don't, I don't see it that way. Right. To me, like it's. It's about storytelling and it's about communicating. And yes, writing is a part of that, right? But it's not like the end all and the be all.
Chris (35:27)
And so I just feel like people who get fixated on the production of the thing rather than the meaning making and the application of the thing, right? That's a divide where I don't have sympathy for because so much of that sympathy goes into that lower layer. Like, oh, you're a baker. You know, you knead the dough and you put it in the oven and now you've lost the baking, right? I mean, that's really what we're talking about. And it's like, but you still have a bakery. Yeah. And like, so to me, it's that like inability to abstract and sit on top of a thing, right? Just kind of rubs me the wrong way around all of these conversations, you know, related to AI, because it shows, it shows limitations at a time in which like your posture and your outlook should be.
Chris (36:17)
Operating at a higher level. Right, I get
Pri (36:19)
that. It's like allegiance to a process, which is not that interesting.
Chris (36:24)
Yeah, in a Nietzschean way, it's very slavish. Yeah, it is. It's like a slave mentality in which you're expressed through the labor and not through the interaction and ownership. Yeah,
Pri (36:39)
I agree. That's actually a really nice way of articulating it.
Aaron (36:42)
I think it's just a lot of change for people to deal with. Especially for a lot of the folks that they're interviewing and a lot of professors, they're just at the, they're, they didn't like turn over the professorships there. So I think a lot of them are at the end of their career, looking back and being like, why did I even do this? You know, that's depressing. Like a week, some computer scientists and, and other researchers at open AI can just like obliterate my life's work. And do a better job than I could.
Chris (37:12)
But they're standing on the shoulders of mathematical giants that they could only obliterate the meaning of.
Aaron (37:19)
Yeah, I get that. I think it's the same thing. I do think that will take time to adjust and it will be fine. And then we'll have Palmer. Palmer Luckey's new. War Dogs. War Dogs. Did you guys hear about that? That was dystopian. Yeah.
Chris (37:38)
Lay it on me because I think if anyone is like producing the most batshit sort of like stable of companies out there, right?
Pri (37:47)
He's definitely across the game. He definitely has a
Aaron (37:50)
unique combination of companies between Anduril, a crypto bank, and now a company that's building genetically enhanced dogs to help during.
Pri (38:02)
Yeah, and for those listeners who don't know, Palmer Luckey and Ben Lamb have launched Warhound with $200 million in funding to develop genetically enhanced dogs for critical mission in law enforcement, defense, and emergency response with a focus on canine safety and health. So
Aaron (38:18)
we're building dire wolves now.
Chris (38:20)
I was about to say, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of ways to go about this. Like, you know, you could cross dogs with wolves. I would, you know, personally be like, why not try to domesticate hyenas? And, you know, like, is really like increasing the lethality of the dogs the right way to go about this? I suppose like the domestication is the bottleneck here. I
Pri (38:40)
wonder what breed they're going to choose. Like a Labrador?
Chris (38:44)
Oh, that'd be so terrible for Labrador.
Pri (38:47)
Like a Labrador plus Pitbull?
Aaron (38:49)
They're going to pick a designer dog to start with.
Chris (38:53)
Yeah, I'm not too worried about the War Dogs. Why
Aaron (38:55)
did they choose War Dogs instead of War Dogs? War Dog is such a funny name.
Chris (38:59)
War Dog's probably a taping trademark.
Pri (39:02)
Also, isn't that that movie? That movie was awesome, actually. War Dog. I actually love that movie.
Chris (39:08)
Is that Jonah Hill?
Pri (39:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Chris (39:10)
That was like a good, bad movie. Yeah, it was good.
Aaron (39:13)
It was Jonah Hill then, recently, by the way. Yeah, I think he's been... I haven't seen him in anything.
Chris (39:18)
You haven't bumped into him at Temple? You haven't seen him at, like, the Y shooting hoops? He hasn't been at your bodega lately?
Pri (39:24)
No, he's been in stuff. Hold on.
Aaron (39:27)
I mean, I'm a big fan ever since his, like, super bad days. Or even before that. He cracks me up. I think he's a funny guy.
Chris (39:35)
Man, all this NFT talk. I know. Scintillating on Marfa Week.
Aaron (39:40)
Well, I did hear that some folks went to Ape Fest, and they said it was great. You know, like... A couple thousand people showed up and the energy was good. If that's like your community.
Chris (39:51)
Thousand. I saw people throwing some shade online over the Waffle House clip. And all I can say is, you know what? I actually thought ApeFest took a big step up this year because it wasn't hosted at like an Area 51 laser tag building on the outskirts of Vegas.
Aaron (40:07)
Yeah. I mean, like for some people, that's their community, which is great. And they had a nice time. Yeah. So, I mean, that's interesting. I did like the [artist name unclear] new work. I thought that that was pretty cool to kind of see some innovation. Yeah, it looks good. Like an genetic primitive, so excited for that.
Pri (40:26)
I actually really liked the, it was the Shojiro Nakaoka. When we just stopped by it. Yeah. I thought that was great.
Aaron (40:34)
I think the Japanese generative artists continue to plug along. Outperform. Perfecting the craft. Yeah. Pushing it in new directions.
Pri (40:42)
Nori did a good job displaying it. It looked great. I thought the whole thing was wonderful, actually.
Chris (40:47)
I'm looking forward to getting out on the road for a little bit. We're going to do, we're going to head over to Alpine and then maybe go up to Fort Davis and look at the stars.
Pri (40:55)
Fun.
Aaron (40:56)
Yeah.
Chris (40:57)
Big Scott. Get a little old Big Sky.
Pri (41:00)
I need to go to the Art Blocks house. I think I'm going to go to that gemstone store. I've been talking about it for a while, but moonlight gemstones. That's the way to do it, guys. Yeah, the rock shop.
Chris (41:12)
You're going to get some healing crystals?
Pri (41:14)
Yeah, why not? I need everything I can get right now.
Chris (41:18)
I hope your geodes are charged. I hope they're full of vitality and life force. Why don't we call it here, gang? Why don't we leave with a little bit of Southwest woo-woo going on?
Pri (41:33)
Let's go. We're sending good vibes. All right. Should I intro the pod? Let's do it. Hey, everyone. Today, it's me, Chris, and Aaron. Derek, we're missing you. Talking all things tech, AI, crypto, art, and more. Just as a quick reminder, these thoughts and opinions are our own and not of our employer, and none of this is financial advice.
Chris (41:55)
And tune in next week for another edition of Season 99.