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You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
# Fiona Siseman
[00:00:00]
[00:00:28] **David:** Today we're talking about what it [00:00:30] actually takes to go from coaching inside a big brand, to building your own practice [00:00:35] and how to find your niche.
[00:00:36] When you're starting from scratch, you became a coach to help [00:00:40] people, but no one told you how to build the business behind it. Welcome to Coach As Entrepreneur, [00:00:45] the show for coaches building real businesses with the systems strategy and heart.
[00:00:49] [00:00:50] Fiona, thank you for joining us today. I'm curious how did you get into coaching? Because nobody [00:00:55] wakes up as a 7-year-old saying, I wanna be a coach. And, how did you go from [00:01:00] becoming a coach how did you get into Spotify and to start coaching there as well?
[00:01:04] I.
[00:01:04] **Fiona:** [00:01:05] I didn't wa I didn't wake up saying I wanna become a coach, but I did have somebody, [00:01:10] a mentor, like a skip level manager say to me one day, you are gonna make a great [00:01:15] Agile coach. I was kinda like, oh, okay. I guess I'm gonna make a great agile coach. This was back in [00:01:20] Australia maybe. 20 years ago now. and so I, I kind of learned coaching [00:01:25] on the job in, in that role back then, which was with Lonely Planet, as they [00:01:30] became an agile development, adopted agile, processes in their development.
[00:01:34] Uh, and [00:01:35] then a little bit later, the thing that I did say at some point to someone is, I just wanna get paid to talk to [00:01:40] people. That was what I wanted. And in that journey at Learning Planet, I did become an Agile [00:01:45] coach. And then, uh, someone I worked with had started a business in Melbourne and said, would you come [00:01:50] and, you know, be an Agile coach here and agile coaching is, how would I become an Agile coach here?
[00:01:54] And so I [00:01:55] left Learn Planet and I went and worked for him. I didn't. It was a great opportunity and I didn't [00:02:00] work very much and I earned a lot of money and I had a really great lifestyle then. And I was a totally freelancer, so [00:02:05] he didn't pay me if, we didn't have clients. And that suited me for a little while, but I found it really stressful. [00:02:10] And so I didn't want to consult, which is more what this
[00:02:14] **David:** Mm-hmm.[00:02:15]
[00:02:15] **Fiona:** agile coaches in. Uh, and I also did want to go overseas. [00:02:20] And so at that time, Spotify had been advertising, Spotify was really well known for its [00:02:25] agile adoption and the way it did things from, from 2012. and I had some [00:02:30] contacts over here, but I ended up winning a green card, longest story, but winning a green card to the [00:02:35] us. and so that was kind of the catalyst to come over and I came over and I was like, we'll [00:02:40] see my husband and I, we'll see if we can, um, make a go of it. There. I worked somewhere else, [00:02:45] freelancing again here for a few months and didn't love it. But I was going to meetups with some of the coaches [00:02:50] from Spotify and eventually one of the, coaches that came to that meetup [00:02:55] spoke to a friend of mine back in Australia. ' cause they were connected, an ex-colleague of mine and said, [00:03:00] do you know any coaches in, that would wanna work at Spotify in New York? And he, he was like, you know, [00:03:05] Fiona, who you're meeting with every week in that meetup would probably be a great [00:03:10] choice. And, and I kind of had in my mind, like Spotify's a bit of a cult.
[00:03:14] Like I [00:03:15] think a lot of the Agile coaches were like that it cannot be as good as the, um,
[00:03:19] **David:** Uh, yeah.[00:03:20]
[00:03:20] **Fiona:** about it was. So that was what drew me to the interview and
[00:03:23] I decided it would be fun [00:03:25] and they decided they would hire me. And there I was.
[00:03:27] **David:** So you said 2012, so Spotify was already [00:03:30] doing coaching internally.
[00:03:31] **Fiona:** Spotify. They were. So
[00:03:34] **David:** Okay.
[00:03:34] **Fiona:** [00:03:35] they published, uh, a white paper about coaching at Spotify and, or I think [00:03:40] they did, A couple of them did a, a talk in an Agile conference in
[00:03:43] **David:** Okay.
[00:03:44] **Fiona:** it was. [00:03:45] Um, and that kind of went viral with like, oh, this is how you do agile. And it was true and not true, [00:03:50] but it, it really generated a lot of interest.
[00:03:52] And at the time they were hiring coaches when I [00:03:55] joined, in 2016 they had, um, about 60 coaches [00:04:00] across
[00:04:00] **David:** Okay.
[00:04:00] **Fiona:** organization. don't know how big the organization was. It wasn't that big.
[00:04:04] **David:** [00:04:05] Yeah, I mean Spotify is, huge globally. I actually, I don't know how many people they have on their team now.
[00:04:09] **Fiona:** [00:04:10] Yeah,
[00:04:10] It's been two and a half years since I've been there, so I'm certainly gonna muck up the figures. But there was [00:04:15] something like 3000 people when I joined in 2016 and maybe 1500 of those [00:04:20] worked in, the engineering side, the
[00:04:22] **David:** mm-hmm.
[00:04:22] **Fiona:** and development side of the company as opposed to the more [00:04:25] commercial
[00:04:25] **David:** Right.
[00:04:26] **Fiona:** other functions. really quickly over the whole time I was there. By the time I [00:04:30] left, there was around 10,000, nine or 10,000 people. [00:04:35] so it, of a job of an agile coach is to help the organization scale, smoothly,
[00:04:39] **David:** [00:04:40] Yeah.
[00:04:40] **Fiona:** Um, you know, having, observers of the process and keepers of the, [00:04:45] uh, how we work, not just what we're building is really kind of, what the coaches focused on. [00:04:50] and so there was a lot of them for a while, and then as the business matured, they were less and less,
[00:04:54] **David:** I [00:04:55] see. And so, Spotify had agile coaches in the [00:05:00] company, then you kind of, got brought in as an agile coach and then [00:05:05] your work kind of, it evolved from just agile coaching though, as I understood, right?
[00:05:09] **Fiona:** [00:05:10] Yeah, that's right. I think, um, agile coaching is seen as like, what is the [00:05:15] process by which teams, um, on the ground, like of engineers and barrack managers. Like what is the process [00:05:20] that they, they use and how does that scale in the organization? And then different coaches [00:05:25] have different ways that they approach that.
[00:05:26] So some have been engineers before and so they, there's a lot of [00:05:30] technical processes, practices associated with that, and they coach in that way.
[00:05:33] **David:** Yeah.
[00:05:33] **Fiona:** then some, like me, I [00:05:35] didn't have an engineering background. I just worked a lot with, um, engineering teams and [00:05:40] building uh, the digital website for Lonely Planet.
[00:05:42] **David:** Yeah.
[00:05:42] **Fiona:** so my interest was much more [00:05:45] how do we make sure we're getting the most, we're all working towards the same thing and getting the most, input and [00:05:50] collaboration between the people that need to collaborate.
[00:05:52] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:05:52] **Fiona:** starts like at that team level, agile coaching [00:05:55] really like starts at that team level, but as soon as you kind of get that running, you've gotta like get the [00:06:00] next, the level above needs to be aligned.
[00:06:02] 'cause you know, if, if the engineer's [00:06:05] manager is saying something and the product managers, the product manager's manager is saying something and they don't [00:06:10] align, like the chaos is happening down lower. And
[00:06:12] **David:** Yeah.
[00:06:12] **Fiona:** kind of I [00:06:15] I do think naturally as coaches, agile coaches grow, they're really [00:06:20] competent ones.
[00:06:22] And Spotify was a very high [00:06:25] highly agile company
[00:06:27] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:06:28] **Fiona:** to maybe a bank that [00:06:30] needs to change from the way it used to work to become agile. And so there's a,
[00:06:33] **David:** Yeah.
[00:06:34] **Fiona:** flavor [00:06:35] of coaching that's needed there. So it, I just wanna say that because I think Agile coaching at [00:06:40] Spotify was a lot about. Influencing not having a prescribed method that they [00:06:45] had to do it, but continually asking them how what they were doing was, [00:06:50] achieving what they were aiming to achieve and is that the right thing? But, so it's kind of [00:06:55] this continual question and,
[00:06:56] **David:** Yeah.
[00:06:57] **Fiona:** of influencing and no, real mandate to tell [00:07:00] people how they should do things.
[00:07:01]
[00:07:01] **David:** I would say the last 20 years or [00:07:05] so of these new companies, startups, their systems and processes have been so [00:07:10] agile. Instead of being fixated on, this is just how we do it, because [00:07:15] this is our institution.
[00:07:15] We've done this for 50 to a hundred years, we're just gonna take [00:07:20] this whole new idea of agile, right? Because agile is still, like maybe 20 years. [00:07:25] Something like that, right?
[00:07:27] **Fiona:** manifesto, I think came out in 2001
[00:07:29] **David:** [00:07:30] Yeah.
[00:07:30] **Fiona:** if I'm not misquoting. So yeah, that's like 25 years. And I would argue that teams were, [00:07:35] there were things that, were still, you know, an agile mindset about how you do. Creative [00:07:40] project work.
[00:07:40] **David:** Yeah. And so the way Spotify was working [00:07:45] makes a lot of sense because instead of prescribing everybody to do, its one way. It's just, here's our [00:07:50] end goal. And then how do you make sure? ' cause very quickly it's, it can [00:07:55] become chaotic, in terms of what are you doing? How are you doing it? Why are you doing it?
[00:07:59] [00:08:00] And then if you have, like, 'cause I've seen it as well where you have, uh, engineers [00:08:05] and then you have product or marketing people and then everyone says, this is what we're doing, but [00:08:10] everyone interprets it completely differently.
[00:08:12] **Fiona:** Yeah. And are [00:08:15] incentivized in different ways, like, you know, sales and marketing are incentivized to make the [00:08:20] sale or to have this functionality or, that's always competing with, what the tech [00:08:25] teams wanna do often. And so, I mean, it shouldn't be competing is the point. It should be[00:08:30]
[00:08:30] **David:** Yeah.
[00:08:30] **Fiona:** the top.
[00:08:30] And as you get bigger and bigger, that gets more and more difficult. I mean, I guess they were one of the [00:08:35] first that started to scale that out. I'm not gonna say the first,
[00:08:38] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:08:38] **Fiona:** one of the first that started [00:08:40] to scale that up and this was happening. You gotta remember when this scaling was happening too, because I remember [00:08:45] starting at Spotify in 2016 and just going, wait, they're just [00:08:50] throwing up.
[00:08:50] They're having an idea for what to build, and we're throwing up another, spinning up another squad, another team. We're [00:08:55] just gonna hire people. But that was, that was the vibe back then. There was
[00:08:58] **David:** Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] Yeah.
[00:09:00] **Fiona:** was very willing, which I think was an asset to just build it and [00:09:05] learn and throw it away if it didn't work,
[00:09:07] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:09:07] **Fiona:** the people onto something else.
[00:09:08] Like there was enough going [00:09:10] on that they could do that because they had enough money. But it, it
[00:09:12] **David:** Yeah.
[00:09:13] **Fiona:** more and more chaos.
[00:09:14] **David:** [00:09:15] Yeah, I mean, I can imagine it, but at the same time, I can't imagine trying to manage it. So [00:09:20] for you that.
[00:09:20] **Fiona:** not my job either. I'm gonna say managing it. I, like, I was [00:09:25] in that system. I wasn't managing that system. There was a lot of other stuff that went on around, you
[00:09:28] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:09:29] **Fiona:** there's, [00:09:30] people are always surprised to know that there are program managers at Spotify because it was so big.
[00:09:34] And we [00:09:35] do need to coordinate across different, departments,
[00:09:37] **David:** Uhhuh.
[00:09:38] **Fiona:** or studios as they're called now. [00:09:40] Yeah, that was an ever ongoing challenge of trialing, like, how [00:09:45] do we, in this highly autonomous, fast moving, fast growing organization, stay aligned.[00:09:50]
[00:09:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:09:51] **Fiona:** if they've nailed it yet. I mean, they've nailed it enough.
[00:09:53] **David:** Yeah. So they [00:09:55] could, they're still moving forward and they're still growing. Right.
[00:09:57] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:09:58] **David:** so then in your [00:10:00] coaching, 'cause, so you, you kind of, you went from being very specifically agile coach [00:10:05] Right. How would you describe your,
[00:10:07] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:10:08] **David:** your evolution as a [00:10:10] coach within Spotify and where you are today?
[00:10:11] **Fiona:** As I said before, the [00:10:15] more you improve the teams at the bottom of a, if you think of the bottom of the, the stack, the ones [00:10:20] closest to the work, which is one of the premises of agile. They're the ones that know best. How do you [00:10:25] then keep it aligned up through the organization?
[00:10:27] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:10:28] **Fiona:** I spent about 18 months working, [00:10:30] um, in the Spotify for artists app area as they were launching that.
[00:10:34] **David:** Mm-hmm.[00:10:35]
[00:10:35] **Fiona:** and then. That was very driven by what the artists and their labels and the [00:10:40] creatives and you know, there was, uh, what they needed and what they wanted. and there was something there that I, [00:10:45] didn't work well with me and I ended up moving into the infrastructure side of, things and working [00:10:50] on the platform infrastructure teams, and straight away. I did 18 months in that [00:10:55] first organization, and then within about a year of moving into the next one, was starting to [00:11:00] like, oh, I can't coach the teams. Like, as I said, when I started there was 60 [00:11:05] coaches and that was because we used to have a coach per two or three teams. But [00:11:10] then slowly began to change. When I started, there was me and probably. [00:11:15] 15 teams and I can't coach 15 teams. Like I can't be close enough. So I, [00:11:20] I'm like,
[00:11:20] **David:** Yeah.
[00:11:20] **Fiona:** real conscious move to like, oh, okay, I have to coach and I had peers that I [00:11:25] was working with, but I have to coach the leaders of these teams,
[00:11:28] **David:** Yeah.
[00:11:28] **Fiona:** do I teach [00:11:30] them and then facilitate them to do it?
[00:11:32] So was kind of the beginning of what's the next level of [00:11:35] agile coaching when you can't, when you are not the one doing the facilitating
[00:11:38] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:11:39] **Fiona:** them groom a [00:11:40] backlog or something. The next, so I, I don't know, I spent a, a year or so focusing on [00:11:45] that, I would say. And then the next level is like the organization above that, where we've got those [00:11:50] 15 teams have ultimately three or or six, whatever the constellation is, of leaders [00:11:55] at the top who are leading the different functions within those teams. And so how do we, how do we align [00:12:00] together on what is the cadence for that? And
[00:12:02] **David:** Yeah.
[00:12:02] **Fiona:** whilst I was just called an agile coach [00:12:05] the whole time I was there, I was really doing team coaching, leadership coaching, kind of one-on-one [00:12:10] coaching.
[00:12:10] And 'cause a lot of it is interpersonal stuff. Like I am,
[00:12:13] **David:** Right.
[00:12:13] **Fiona:** power hierarchy is [00:12:15] preventing me saying, brave enough to bring something up or there isn't an opportunity [00:12:20] I to bring that up. And how, do I make that and how do I give people feedback and how do I, so it became a lot [00:12:25] of training in those things.
[00:12:27] But, also more, I didn't do a lot of [00:12:30] giving of training, other coaches did a lot of giving of training. I was, I was always much more, I [00:12:35] want to be there in the moment. Gorilla facilitating. I used to call it, I, I'd like to be in the [00:12:40] room and to ask the pertinent questions that no one else was asking
[00:12:43] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:12:44] **Fiona:** Coach [00:12:45] leaders around, you know, yeah.
[00:12:46] That seemed like a good interaction, but what was going on with that one? And how could we [00:12:50] make that better next time?
[00:12:51] **David:** Yeah. So from Agile, from [00:12:55] working within the system and making sure things were aligned and facilitating the development [00:13:00] teams, their plans, right to. The interpersonal relationships between the [00:13:05] teams, and leadership. What exactly does that framework entail and how does that, how [00:13:10] does that work? How did you go from that work that you did and that framework, and then [00:13:15] two, leaving Spotify to where you are today.
[00:13:18] **Fiona:** There were enough [00:13:20] coaches at this point, there was probably 30 ish coaches when we started needing that framework in. [00:13:25] And the organization was big enough that those coaches were very separated in, in [00:13:30] terms and reported into a whole lot of different people. So in terms of cohesiveness for [00:13:35] what, how do I promote a coach?
[00:13:36] There were a couple of levels. Uh, at that time, but uh, [00:13:40] but the, what does it mean to be a senior versus not a senior? Like that wasn't written down or [00:13:45] codified anyway, so ala and I really like my now business partner, and I [00:13:50] took that on, to solve the problem of both. I, as a [00:13:55] coach don't know what I should be aiming for to grow and, you know, maybe a report into an engineering leader [00:14:00] who doesn't really know what it means to coach. They're not getting necessarily good [00:14:05] feedback from the, from the person that we're reporting into. And, and that person also doesn't [00:14:10] have anything to look at that tells 'em what makes someone an agile coach versus a senior agile coach, for [00:14:15] example. so they, we had these coaches that really wanted to grow and at the same time we had promotions going [00:14:20] on where. We were starting to get out of sync where, where what I could expect from a [00:14:25] senior Agile coach in one part of the organization maybe is different to what I could expect in the other part.
[00:14:29] And that [00:14:30] was a bit problematic and
[00:14:32] **David:** I see. Yeah.
[00:14:33] **Fiona:** And so, and there had been, [00:14:35] there had been some efforts to, to do this work before we didn't, we did start [00:14:40] from scratch actually, but we ha, you know, we had other artifacts to look at. But it was [00:14:45] really like, okay, what, what level of impact do we [00:14:50] expect an Agile coach to have versus we ended up with four levels uh, and [00:14:55] so it was really these rounds of like talking with these managers and people who did know what good agile coaching [00:15:00] looked like and had seen kind of the,
[00:15:01] **David:** Yeah.
[00:15:02] **Fiona:** Progression, and, and just capturing [00:15:05] that. And it, it was a lot about how much of what's going on around this team that I'm working [00:15:10] with?
[00:15:10] Am I taking into account and am I coaching on, am I having a good [00:15:15] impact? Am I able to influence, am I taking the resistance that, [00:15:20] um, it comes the social dynamics that come from leaders who have that competing [00:15:25] incentives, like I said before, like there's some
[00:15:26] **David:** Yeah.
[00:15:27] **Fiona:** you've gotta be really, uh. [00:15:30] and brave to wade into, and that, you know, more juniors won't.
[00:15:33] **David:** Yeah.
[00:15:34] **Fiona:** and [00:15:35] so really kind of articulating, uh, the, like, the differences in there so that when [00:15:40] we coaches were being promoted or wanting to know where they should grow,
[00:15:43] **David:** Mm.
[00:15:44] **Fiona:** they could see [00:15:45] that. And, and there's two things I wanna add.
[00:15:47] One is there are agile coach [00:15:50] external to Spotify. There's a few general ones, um, that again, that we did [00:15:55] draw on. Um, and that, but in terms of having it customized to like, [00:16:00] well, what does it mean at Spotify, it was kind of that interpretation that we were doing. So we weren't [00:16:05] wanting to replace some of the, the more general ones that were out there.
[00:16:07] But, they were often more, [00:16:10] more at these aimed at these coaches who were doing, agile transformation work as well. Uh,
[00:16:14] **David:** [00:16:15] Yeah.
[00:16:15] **Fiona:** and, and, and doing training and implementing processes. So some of them were not that, we didn't ever [00:16:20] do that. We certainly did do that in the areas that needed it, but as a holistic. Function. That [00:16:25] wasn't so much what we were there to do.
[00:16:26] **David:** Okay, so your time at Spotify [00:16:30] Agile coaching, kind of moving up, setting up that framework for agile coaches and [00:16:35] those different levels, and then you and your current partner were both working at [00:16:40] Spotify at for those years, and then you guys both decided to leave together, correct?
[00:16:44] **Fiona:** [00:16:45] Sort of correct.
[00:16:46] **David:** Sort of. Okay. So how did you guys, well, because you're [00:16:50] working together now, or how did you decide to, to step away from [00:16:55] Spotify and then go into, into this coaching that you're doing now, which is [00:17:00] much more leadership, organizational coaching, correct?
[00:17:03] **Fiona:** Yes, [00:17:05] it's probably not directly organizational,
[00:17:08] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:17:09] **Fiona:** but it is [00:17:10] in the way that we are coaching senior leaders and helping them think often, sometimes what we're doing is helping them think [00:17:15] through organizational stuff.
[00:17:16] **David:** Okay.
[00:17:16] **Fiona:** the, the, I guess the line I have there is am [00:17:20] I consulting and going in and helping them do the work on the ground?
[00:17:23] And I think [00:17:25] organizational coaching, there's a lot more of going in and being in the organization
[00:17:28] **David:** I see.
[00:17:29] **Fiona:** two of us [00:17:30] do.
[00:17:30] But yes, we're coaching, you know, directors, founders really anywhere up [00:17:35] to, it's hard to say now. When we first set out, we were like, we can coach people who run organizations of up [00:17:40] to 400 people. And I think that probably is still standing
[00:17:43] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:17:44] **Fiona:** what we [00:17:45] do, but I don't think we quite define ourselves the same way. anyway, we had been [00:17:50] working together in this framework. We knew we worked well.
[00:17:52] **David:** Yeah.
[00:17:53] **Fiona:** was getting sick of working [00:17:55] full-time.
[00:17:55] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:17:56] **Fiona:** I just did not want to anymore. I'd done it too long. I'm [00:18:00] 10 years older than my business partner.
[00:18:02] **David:** I see.
[00:18:03] **Fiona:** so that was the real driver for me. [00:18:05] also at the time, there was not anywhere to go with coaching. A lot of [00:18:10] coaches, at Spotify that did move to become engineering managers or product managers. And like, [00:18:15] you know, I reported in my, the organization I was in, my manager was an Exag agile coach, and his manager was an exag [00:18:20] agile coach. So there was definitely like that kind of path. But if you, what you wanted to do was stay [00:18:25] a coach. There wasn't really, even with our framework, like you hit the, the top of [00:18:30] that, the step into running an organization that was a difficult one to
[00:18:34] **David:** I [00:18:35] see.
[00:18:35] **Fiona:** Uh, you had to kind of step earlier, you know, if I had become an engineering manager, [00:18:40] then maybe I would have stayed and, and,
[00:18:42] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:18:42] **Fiona:** but I didn't want to. And at the same [00:18:45] time, there was a bit of a shift around like Spotify had grown so big and that [00:18:50] that, uh, difficulty of keeping things aligned was [00:18:55] swinging back away from like being less autonomous teams, less self-organizing [00:19:00] teams, and a and a bit more, there was more standardization coming down, I don't [00:19:05] think was a bad thing, but it wasn't a thing that gelled well with, with coaches who [00:19:10] want to, you know, help teams. They don't, coaches don't wanna be implementing the systems [00:19:15] onto teams. They wanna be working with teams coming up. And, and the flavor of that was starting to change. And also [00:19:20] different leaders come in and come and go and, you know, there were a lot of, in, in parts. There were, [00:19:25] there were leaders that, um, different ways of approaching because if your leader didn't understand [00:19:30] what a coach did and what value a coach brought, it was sometimes pretty hard to see it, even with our frameworks.
[00:19:34] **David:** [00:19:35] Yeah, I mean, 'cause there's a generally a lot of confusion around even with like, so [00:19:40] just the term coach in the business world, it's like what kind of coach are you? Um, but even [00:19:45] among, like when you talk about agile and those, that definition of agile, [00:19:50] if everyone assumes their definition, there's probably at least five to [00:19:55] 10 different variations of that, right?
[00:19:57] And so if you don't start from the [00:20:00] same base definition of agile coach or [00:20:05] if, if it's not aligned, even from that very beginning, you get a lot of misalignment further down [00:20:10] the line. And so, and then with every new leader comes in, they always have a different strategy and plan in [00:20:15] mind, right? And so what you started
[00:20:18] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:20:19] **David:** months ago when the new [00:20:20] leader comes in is like, no, we don't like that.
[00:20:21] We're just gonna throw it out and do something else. And so,
[00:20:23] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:20:24] **David:** [00:20:25] and.
[00:20:25] **Fiona:** And so actually Alia had a lot of that going on in her side of the organization, and so that [00:20:30] was really burning her out. Um, but, and so she and I had started, we, [00:20:35] were quite good friends outside of work already at, and at [00:20:40] some point we had said, you know, wouldn't it be great if we did this for ourselves one [00:20:45] day?
[00:20:45] I, I think Alia tells this story as I, I said We could do [00:20:50] it. Alia said could we? And I said, yeah, of course we could. And so then she had to go, [00:20:55] she went, I had done one-on-one coaching training prior to this, and she had not.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:21:00] **Fiona:** actually started, um, leaning further into, into that kind of in preparation and we started [00:21:05] talking about it.
[00:21:05] Um, just slowly, like with a one day we'll do this, but [00:21:10] then, spotify laid, started layoffs the same time all the other big tech companies started layoffs [00:21:15] in 2021 ish
[00:21:17] **David:** Yeah.
[00:21:17] **Fiona:** 2022. And she was [00:21:20] one of the first rounds of layoffs. They laid off her organization, laid off all of the agile coaches [00:21:25] actually in their organization. And so all of a sudden, and she's like, okay. I mean, [00:21:30] she was like, okay, I'm gonna get another job, or we are gonna start with this business now. And so [00:21:35] she, then had to get up the I'm [00:21:40] gonna say, but like, you know, actually make the decision
[00:21:42] **David:** Hmm.
[00:21:43] **Fiona:** to leave. And uh, [00:21:45] so I she was laid off in November and then [00:21:50] I left the following June. So she did a lot of, I'm gonna say waiting [00:21:55] for me to, to leave, but also a lot of the pre-work, uh, know, we had a [00:22:00] website built by the time I left, for example, because she had time to do it.
[00:22:03] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:22:03] **Fiona:** she was doing kind of. [00:22:05] Slow background setup work and, and the two of us were meeting with other [00:22:10] coaches and she was finishing her co started the last segment of her coaching [00:22:15] and had some free clients that she needed, you know, as you do the training.
[00:22:18] Um, [00:22:20] so you know, she was doing a that stuff and I was working out how to leave.
[00:22:23] **David:** Okay. So [00:22:25] you left, you started working together so most coaches, they start off as [00:22:30] solo coaches, right? They set up their LLC, they just them
[00:22:33] **Fiona:** well, I dunno, but yes, I guess [00:22:35] so.
[00:22:36] **David:** in general. Yeah. Most coaches, they kind of, they finished their [00:22:40] career in whatever corporate world they were in, and then they start [00:22:45] coaching. You know, it, it's them and their families. But with the two of you guys, you had to [00:22:50] have more discussions 'cause you both have to be aligned, right?
[00:22:52] Like, as
[00:22:53] **Fiona:** Yes,
[00:22:54] **David:** I [00:22:55] would imagine being aligned. Very important for both of you as agile coaches. Um, [00:23:00] so then how, what does the conversation look like for the two of you when you say, okay, we're working [00:23:05] together, we need to make sure we're making money, and what was our, what's our, like a 90 [00:23:10] day launch plan? How does, what does that conversation like?
[00:23:14] **Fiona:** I mean, [00:23:15] very practically, there was the point where we made just a, [00:23:20] a Google talk list of what are all the questions and [00:23:25] fears and worries that we have. so we kind of got them all down on paper and [00:23:30] we were answering them together. what's my answer to this? What's her answer [00:23:35] to that? And, and know, a big piece for me is, I was the sole earner [00:23:40] at the time, and so if I, when I left, there was no more income [00:23:45] into, into my household. I is partner, um, still works for [00:23:50] Google. And so that was a d that was different for her. So we had to have that conversation and, [00:23:55] and for me there was a lot of work on getting comfortable with, okay, what will that look like with not [00:24:00] having a paycheck and how much is gonna be enough? And, and that was conversated with my husband and kind of sorting that [00:24:05] out. Weirdly we ended up with the same. One of the questions was, what's the minimum we [00:24:10] wanna make, like in terms of this business is viable?
[00:24:14] **David:** [00:24:15] Yeah.
[00:24:15] **Fiona:** we came to the same number by chance each, uh, which [00:24:20] I really dunno how happened, but, uh,
[00:24:22] **David:** I, I,
[00:24:23] **Fiona:** the thing.
[00:24:23] **David:** I'm curious what the number [00:24:25] was.
[00:24:25] **Fiona:** it was $75,000. Not big,
[00:24:28] **David:** Yeah.
[00:24:28] **Fiona:** but like, you know, [00:24:30] if we, will cover, for me that was like, that will cover living expenses[00:24:35]
[00:24:35] **David:** Right.
[00:24:35] **Fiona:** not be eating into savings.
[00:24:37] **David:** Yeah. So just,
[00:24:38] **Fiona:** and we can afford to [00:24:40] do that for years is what we said.
[00:24:43] **David:** okay.
[00:24:43] **Fiona:** those were two really big [00:24:45] things that we had to align together. And I've spoken with other coaches who have considered [00:24:50] partnerships and they haven't been able to do that because. If one needs a lot more money, [00:24:55] 'cause 75,000 not that much if you live in New York City.
[00:24:57] **David:** Yeah.
[00:24:57] **Fiona:** certainly not much if you've got a family, which [00:25:00] neither of us have kids. So that again, we were, we were a match from that perspective. And I've spoken to a, [00:25:05] you know, as I said, people who have kids don't have kids. They can't make that match sometimes. [00:25:10] That was the, that was the biggest thing. One of the things that we do with teams that, I mean, we [00:25:15] lived the things that we would coach teams to do, we had to do for ourselves. Like we [00:25:20] were making a product, here is how we approached it. And, and so what did we think [00:25:25] that would look like? Who did we think we're coaching? We did a, a lean canvas thing on like, [00:25:30] who is our customer and why would they buy us?
[00:25:32] And who are the competitors? And I think we [00:25:35] were, I mean, we were pretty spot on. Spot on. That sounds like we got it. All right. [00:25:40] It was enough to get us aligned at the beginning and to know that we were speaking mostly the same language. Uh, [00:25:45] you know, a year in, we were still discovering things where, where we didn't quite mean the [00:25:50] same thing,
[00:25:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:25:51] **Fiona:** did do a lot of the work.
[00:25:52] So we had conversations of like, oh, what if [00:25:55] of us finds out this is not enough money and needs to do something else? How are we gonna handle that? What if, [00:26:00] I think we had, what if someone dies? if, um, [00:26:05] what if one of us gets a really good offer from somewhere else and wants to go and work full time or
[00:26:09] **David:** [00:26:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:10] **Fiona:** more than coach and it, and it would be a different, um, thing.
[00:26:13] So [00:26:15] we had a lot of talk conversations about those and we, we wrote them down [00:26:20] and we revisit them every quarter. Still. We read through that original operating agreement [00:26:25] and, and talk about what's still relevant and what's not. Oh, and we did values as well.
[00:26:29] Like, what do we [00:26:30] want this co, what do we want this company to feel like? And in fact, the [00:26:35] guiding, we didn't have a dollar dollars as our guiding aim. so like, our, [00:26:40] our main thing, north Star if you like, was always like, [00:26:45] are we having fun? Are we delivering what we want to? And do we wanna work [00:26:50] with each other? we didn't want to get any of those things out of balance. [00:26:55] and the money, the money always for me was secondary, actually. That was partly [00:27:00] 'cause like I said, I was fed up of working for full-time and I didn't wanna work for other people and I just wanted [00:27:05] to do my own thing. And so that, that was
[00:27:06] **David:** Yeah.
[00:27:07] **Fiona:** piece for me.
[00:27:08] **David:** So are you guys having [00:27:10] fun?
[00:27:10] **Fiona:** Mostly. I mean, I mean, yeah, so what that looks like in [00:27:15] practice is if we're not, if one of us is not enjoying something, we [00:27:20] talk about it and we see if we need to rebalance something or if we need to say no to something. [00:27:25] you know, we're two and a half years in now and I'm finding, I, I still love, I [00:27:30] love the one-on-one coaching. I, I could do that on and only that, [00:27:35] and that doesn't earn enough money if we do that, [00:27:40] although we could redefine what enough is. But it, but it's, it's very hard to make a living just from doing that unless [00:27:45] you're charging a lot and we. We don't wanna charge a lot, really, because our, of our things [00:27:50] is we wanna serve mid-level managers and underrepresented, managers, and they're not [00:27:55] paying, you know, 10, $20,000 for a coaching program.
[00:27:57] So we're not aiming to do that.
[00:27:58] Because they probably [00:28:00] don't have budget or they have limited
[00:28:02] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:28:02] **Fiona:** paying themselves and their salary is [00:28:05] lower than the, the, you know, director or VP who A, but probably gets it provided and B [00:28:10] could afford to do it themselves often.
[00:28:11] **David:** Right.
[00:28:12] **Fiona:** So,
[00:28:13] yeah. So, but some of the, so [00:28:15] we also do facilitation and workshops for leadership teams, love the running of those [00:28:20] workshops, but the preparation for those workshops is like, that's a friction point for the, for both of us in terms [00:28:25] of our working styles. Save things till the last minute and Alia wants to [00:28:30] do things really early and have them all ready and ready to go, and I don't even have my best ideas until the [00:28:35] last minute sometimes.
[00:28:36] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:28:36] **Fiona:** been a lot of, how do we manage that and we [00:28:40] just keep trying different things. We pretty, I don't know, maybe six months in, [00:28:45] maybe a year in, we stopped. We said we don't work every second Monday. Like we just don't, we have a [00:28:50] three, we definitely have a three day weekend.
[00:28:51] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:28:52] **Fiona:** We definitely close over Christmas, [00:28:55] Year. Like I,
[00:28:56] **David:** Yeah.
[00:28:56] **Fiona:** would work, I would actually work.
[00:28:57] I've come from, um, I always used to like [00:29:00] to work that period because it was quiet when I was working in, in, uh, you know, businesses, you could [00:29:05] get stuff done in a different way. But Alia has always tried to, you know, leave. She goes and does her [00:29:10] family and leaves the week, the whatever, the Monday before Christmas, you know, and doesn't start back till the new year. [00:29:15] So
[00:29:15] **David:** Yeah.
[00:29:16] **Fiona:** a bit, she goes, so we kind of, we flex it backwards and forward.
[00:29:19] So it's ever [00:29:20] changing, but we're constantly talking about that and, and revisiting it. And, and we did [00:29:25] have a, a period last year where we weren't having fun actually,
[00:29:28] it, it was [00:29:30] because we were doing too, we had taken on too much work and too much travel at the [00:29:35] same time.
[00:29:36] **David:** Uh
[00:29:36] **Fiona:** September, um, we're still working out like what are the busy [00:29:40] periods of the year versus the quieter periods. um, and we hadn't had a chance to sit [00:29:45] down and properly talk through what's going on and, and have the conversation of asking, are you having [00:29:50] fun? And so stuff, if you don't talk about it, stuff just kind of
[00:29:53] **David:** Yeah.
[00:29:54] **Fiona:** south [00:29:55] quickly.
[00:29:55]
[00:30:21] **David:** I, it sounds like a, like a marriage a bit. Just [00:30:25] because, you know, you can e very easily get into to your, both of your modes of life and doing [00:30:30] your work and doing your, whatever it is that's going on, and then suddenly you're [00:30:35] not talking and then you're not communicating in aligning, and then you're just like, we're [00:30:40] not having anymore.
[00:30:41] A couple of things that came that I was thinking about was [00:30:45] one, like, because you you're both working. Like this is a equal [00:30:50] co-owned,
[00:30:50] **Fiona:** It's a par equal partnership. Yeah.
[00:30:53] **David:** so you both have to be aligned. So you [00:30:55] have to force yourselves to answer those questions of who, what's our service? [00:31:00] Who are our clients, how are we working?
[00:31:02] I think a lot of times when I, when I [00:31:05] talk with coaches, they. Don't necessarily have those [00:31:10] questions answered for themselves because they're just like, I'll just [00:31:15] figure it out as I go along. Which like to a certain degree is okay, but you should at least make [00:31:20] the attempt to understand what are you trying to do, what are you trying to achieve, and [00:31:25] what does that look like for you?
[00:31:27] And I love how you guys are every [00:31:30] quarter revisiting, you know, your initial document, right. To [00:31:35] say, alright, is this all still true? Do we need to make changes? And I think that's really fundamental to, [00:31:40] to the agile approach, right? Of, you know, iteration.
[00:31:44] **Fiona:** We learned that[00:31:45]
[00:31:45] **David:** Yeah,
[00:31:45] **Fiona:** eating our own medicine
[00:31:47] **David:** yeah. I think that like, [00:31:50] in some ways, doing it as a partnership is really good.
[00:31:52] And, and 'cause you guys have been [00:31:55] in business for about two and a half years now, right?
[00:31:57] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:31:58] **David:** It sounds like [00:32:00] things are going quite well, actually, where I've talked to a lot of coaches who have started [00:32:05] their businesses and two years in, they're still struggling to get [00:32:10] new clients, so something is working [00:32:15] well, and I'd love to kind of dive into like what do you think has been working well for you guys [00:32:20] as a new, you know, two and a half years is still fairly young.
[00:32:24] What has [00:32:25] been that kind of accelerator for you guys?
[00:32:28] **Fiona:** There's a few things. [00:32:30] One is because there's two of us,
[00:32:32] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:32:32] **Fiona:** got somebody to, [00:32:35] brainstorm with and, and bounce ideas off of. And if [00:32:40] I'm stuck on something, I can say to Alia, I'm stuck on this. And she will, she's a [00:32:45] coach too. So she'll ask a question or she will have an opinion or she'll have an idea. And [00:32:50] we're very willing to jump in and out of what each other needs.
[00:32:53] So even though we're a partnership, [00:32:55] we're often, like, my clients are my clients. So if we get a random, someone that we don't [00:33:00] know asking for coaching, we, it's often a discussion of like, oh, who wants to [00:33:05] be the first person to talk to this client and see if there's a fit? nine times out of [00:33:10] 10 there is a fit because we've been recommended by word of mouth is, is generally how we get [00:33:15] clients.
[00:33:15] And so it's not, um. I mean, we certainly have people that we don't end up landing as a client [00:33:20] because we, there isn't a fit. But, so there's a, there's a choice there straight away of like, if I speak with someone and they're [00:33:25] not sure, I'm like, oh, do you wanna speak to, to American straightaway we're refer to someone who's still gonna be earning me [00:33:30] money. So, so that's pretty nice. and we have a bigger network because there's two [00:33:35] of us. And so, of the benefits of course for anyone listening who is thinking about, [00:33:40] jumping ship from corporate life and, um, becoming consultant or a coach [00:33:45] with all the layoffs. Recently, all of a sudden, like until 2020, my network was at, in [00:33:50] New York, was at Spotify, basically.
[00:33:52] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:33:52] **Fiona:** And then by 2020, I mean [00:33:55] by now. Almost everyone I worked with, that's probably not true, but so many people that I worked with now [00:34:00] work somewhere else.
[00:34:01] **David:** Yeah.
[00:34:01] **Fiona:** they see a problem or they see they've, we've got the shared [00:34:05] experience of what it was like to be at Spotify, they're like, oh, wouldn't it be good if had this [00:34:10] kind of a conversation between our leadership teams?
[00:34:12] Or wouldn't it be good if, oh, I need a coach. And I know [00:34:15] that that coach at Spotify was great. Like that's how we get our business. And so there's a really big [00:34:20] network of people out there. And the other thing I think is we [00:34:25] had, we didn't have the financial pressure to earn so quickly. Like I, it is hard to [00:34:30] build the business.
[00:34:30] It is often a word of mouth business and that just takes time. So we [00:34:35] didn't, we weren't pushing ourselves to be profitable within, I mean, we [00:34:40] said two years and we, we managed to do that, not profit. We were profitable the first year, we don't have many [00:34:45] expenses. We weren't on a timeline from that perspective.
[00:34:47] And so that led us more easily do [00:34:50] things like the metrics we were tracking very early on was how many [00:34:55] contacts with people did I make? We still track these metrics and you know, we started off trying to [00:35:00] do, let's do like 20, and that was way too many. That was not fun and [00:35:05] stressful and, uh, I don't know. We tried cold, cold reach out at some points [00:35:10] that never got anything and so we really just had this opportunity to be like, okay, that didn't work. [00:35:15] Let's kind of step back and, and just try again. And we settled. In the end, it's only [00:35:20] four. We each make sure we have had four interactions with [00:35:25] either new. or new, um, opportunities [00:35:30] or reengaging with, you know, old people, clients maybe, and just saying, Hey, how you going? And [00:35:35] you know, by the way, if you'd know anyone, I'm still here. You know, that kind of network, you know, the
[00:35:39] **David:** Yeah.
[00:35:39] **Fiona:** the [00:35:40] standard, I'm gonna say networking, but,
[00:35:41] that's what we counted early on.
[00:35:42] So we weren't, there wasn't pressure from that [00:35:45] perspective we did realize really soon that we needed to get content out there as well for like, content marketing [00:35:50] I guess. But,
[00:35:50] we were thinking more about social proof of like just being seen, [00:35:55] I think people get hung up a lot on in terms of I have to have that.
[00:35:58] And I think you do have to have that, but [00:36:00] that's, a much longer play around getting clients. And
[00:36:04] **David:** Yeah.
[00:36:04] **Fiona:** I [00:36:05] look now and I look at all the content we have put out and that we've created for. Courses [00:36:10] that we've run and things we've facilitated, and I'm like, wow, know, [00:36:15] I like, we look real now. And I can remember back at the start and even the first six [00:36:20] months of just going, don't look real.
[00:36:22] And I hear people saying it like, just today I was [00:36:25] talking with a client who's like, I've gotta get my website up. And I was like, don't think you do have to get your website up. I [00:36:30] think you have to just do enough to apply for, he was talking about applying for a job [00:36:35] or like he's trying to, pivot and he's like, I've gotta have made it all beautiful.
[00:36:38] That shows why I'm now [00:36:40] this. And I'm like, no, you've gotta be able to talk to that and you've gotta find the right people to talk to. You don't need the other [00:36:45] thing. But it's very intimidating when you're starting out to see all that with other people.
[00:36:49] **David:** [00:36:50] Yeah. So like one is the, the whole agile [00:36:55] approach. Like when people start thinking about, like especially coaches, they think I need to [00:37:00] have a five page beautiful website, right? And in [00:37:05] truth, like the people who are visiting your website in the first month, there there's not gonna be that [00:37:10] many. So you really don't need that much.
[00:37:12] But there are just looking to see if [00:37:15] you are real and what do you do. And if you, there are coaches I've met [00:37:20] who they don't have websites, they've built their entire business off of LinkedIn. I [00:37:25] don't suggest doing that, but that just proves the point of you don't need a full website, [00:37:30] you just need to start with I, I like the agile approach, right?
[00:37:32] With, so what I suggest is for most [00:37:35] coaches, start with a one page profile site and just focus on the content [00:37:40] and making sure that. Who you are, what you do is very clear and that [00:37:45] you have clear ways for people, clear call to actions for people to start working with you. Right?
[00:37:49] And [00:37:50] then later on you develop that.
[00:37:51] **Fiona:** Yeah. And then when we, I said earlier, we had the website because [00:37:55] Alia had the time
[00:37:55] **David:** Mm.
[00:37:56] **Fiona:** and, but the, the value in that for us actually [00:38:00] was the, the having to put it down, I was gonna say on paper, but on a
[00:38:04] **David:** [00:38:05] Yeah.
[00:38:05] **Fiona:** and, and Align, have the same message and agree, yeah, this [00:38:10] says what we want it to say.
[00:38:11] We had a lot of time to do that. But, but the, the value was the doing [00:38:15] of it,
[00:38:15] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:38:15] **Fiona:** not the actual website at the
[00:38:17] **David:** Yeah.
[00:38:18] **Fiona:** And we did make a one pager [00:38:20] very early on 'cause we realized we needed to be able to email just a PF of, you know, [00:38:25] something
[00:38:25] **David:** Yeah.
[00:38:26] **Fiona:** than a whole website of content. I hardly think we used that.
[00:38:29] I, [00:38:30] and I think again, that was the activity of us distilling that onto that page made [00:38:35] us more able to talk about it
[00:38:37] **David:** Yeah.
[00:38:38] **Fiona:** or, you know, wherever we might be [00:38:40] meeting people. So, yeah, I think they, they're useful from getting the habit of being able [00:38:45] to succinctly stuff, but
[00:38:47] **David:** yeah,
[00:38:48] **Fiona:** them to network and
[00:38:49] **David:** [00:38:50] yeah. So also like, what kind of, what I'm hearing is, even your, so your [00:38:55] approach to networking is very systematic, right? You're not saying, maybe we'll do some networking [00:39:00] this week, or we'll try to do kind of like this much, but you, you guys [00:39:05] have set goals for each other and keep each other accountable.
[00:39:09] We're gonna [00:39:10] do at least four interactions. Is that a week or a month?
[00:39:12] **Fiona:** It's every two weeks. It used to be every [00:39:15] week. And then we, we changed our planning period and we, we didn't change the interactions.
[00:39:19] **David:** [00:39:20] Yeah.
[00:39:20] **Fiona:** would say we do. If I average that out. Yes. It's like we hit that [00:39:25] four. Four total for the, I guess it's two each a week if we're gonna do it by week
[00:39:29] **David:** Okay.
[00:39:29] **Fiona:** [00:39:30] for eight total per two weeks. Um, and so if I average that out, yes, we hit it. But [00:39:35] sometimes there are, you know, this week for example, I haven't done a lot of outreach yet [00:39:40] and I'll probably do some tomorrow, Friday, and then, but I might not, and then I'll do it [00:39:45] all next week. So it's, it's a little bit kind of
[00:39:47] **David:** Yeah.
[00:39:47] **Fiona:** fluid like that.
[00:39:49] **David:** Yeah.
[00:39:49] **Fiona:** have a [00:39:50] period, and when we came together for our like planning thing, we do look at like, what are the number of leads we [00:39:55] have in the,
[00:39:55] **David:** Hmm.
[00:39:56] **Fiona:** that, and the other. We track them, we don't necessarily target them,[00:40:00]
[00:40:00] **David:** Yeah,
[00:40:00] **Fiona:** at target numbers for them. But we do look and go, oh look, the leads are down.
[00:40:04] **David:** yeah,
[00:40:04] **Fiona:** [00:40:05] directly say, oh, that's 'cause we weren't holding each other accountable for doing that networking.
[00:40:09] Reach out. So we [00:40:10] can see
[00:40:10] **David:** yeah, yeah.
[00:40:12] **Fiona:** Well, we could see them after maybe. Three [00:40:15] quarters of doing that
[00:40:15] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:40:16] **Fiona:** but two and a half years, we still don't really know the patterns like that. It's [00:40:20] not still a short period of time
[00:40:21] to know, you know, how many, and some coaches can say, I have to do [00:40:25] calls a day in order to convert one or a week in order to [00:40:30] convert one client.
[00:40:30] Like some of them can quote that. I can't, I
[00:40:32] **David:** Yeah.
[00:40:33] **Fiona:** that, but, but the concept of [00:40:35] am I tracking it and thinking about it is important.
[00:40:37] **David:** Yeah, because I, I recently put out a, a [00:40:40] post, or actually it's a very long article about like for [00:40:45] coaches, how do you get new clients? And there's a very system like networking and [00:40:50] referrals can very often feel. You don't really know when they're coming in, and so your [00:40:55] process of trying to keep keeping account each other accountable and trying to do two to [00:41:00] four every two weeks, you know, that is a system that you guys have put in [00:41:05] place that helps to keep it consistent.
[00:41:07] It, it, it's not always gonna, [00:41:10] be the same every month, but can on an average. It's, it's pretty [00:41:15] consistent it sounds like. Right.
[00:41:16] **Fiona:** Yes. And on an average, [00:41:20] so going back to like the business sounds quite successful. Our accountant has [00:41:25] said, you know, I don't know, the first time we sat with him was after six months and he was, [00:41:30] and I think we had 50 K or something in the first six months, which was good 'cause we'd had some people pre-pay some stuff that [00:41:35] we were gonna do the next year.
[00:41:36] So it was, you know, all a bit, that was nerve wracking. Actually. We had gotten, [00:41:40] uh, I can't remember the numbers, but we had gotten probably half of that money. As a commitment [00:41:45] for like a, a series. We do a, a leadership learning lab series of once a month. [00:41:50] we had gotten that ahead of time and we hadn't built the thing and we hadn't ever run it before.
[00:41:54] **David:** [00:41:55] I realized, um, I didn't ask you about the name of [00:42:00] the company, Frank and Eddie, because you're Fiona and your partner is [00:42:05] Aliyah.
[00:42:05] And that's not Frank or Eddie. So
[00:42:08] **Fiona:** No,[00:42:10]
[00:42:10] **David:** how did you guys come up? Yeah.
[00:42:12] **Fiona:** right because when you look at coaching [00:42:15] websites or coaches, their, their business is their name. so there [00:42:20] was, we had quite a lot of angst about that at the beginning because all of the, a lot of the [00:42:25] advice was like, you know, you're selling you. And so there was this whole, oh, we're selling us.
[00:42:29] What is that? And [00:42:30] is it our names? And is it whatever? And we wanted. So we spent way too much time on a [00:42:35] name. Again, we had a lot of time before we were actually able to start. So it was like slow over the, [00:42:40] over those periods. we wanted something that was meaningful [00:42:45] in some way to both of us. And, and that was a bit fun and [00:42:50] quirky, kind of
[00:42:51] **David:** Hmm.
[00:42:51] **Fiona:** not, um, we didn't wanna sound corporate.
[00:42:53] We didn't, you know, we wanted it [00:42:55] to sound like, I don't think we said we wanted to sound like it's two people that just kind of happened.
[00:42:59] **David:** Mm-hmm.[00:43:00]
[00:43:00] **Fiona:** Um, and we ended up with, uh, I can't exactly remember [00:43:05] how we ended up with Frank and Eddie. But the reason that we [00:43:10] like it is because Frank is about being very direct and frank and, you [00:43:15] know,
[00:43:15] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:43:15] **Fiona:** objective and giving feedback in a, in a. [00:43:20] manner. Um, and then the Eddy is this. So Alia and I [00:43:25] both love the outdoors and we both love kayaking actually and canoeing. And [00:43:30] so an eddy is within a body of water that's flowing. You get these eddies
[00:43:34] **David:** [00:43:35] Yeah. [00:43:40] [00:43:45] [00:43:50] Mm-hmm.
[00:43:52] **Fiona:** that's like we are that space. So, [00:43:55] you know, we get the who's Frank and who's Eddie question kind of regularly. And the answer is we're both, [00:44:00] we're both frank and we're both an Eddie.
[00:44:02] **David:** I'm curious through this process [00:44:05] of, you know, kind of getting into this business with your partner, [00:44:10] um, doing this for like two and a half years, what have you learned about yourself [00:44:15] through building this partnership of a, coaching company?
[00:44:19] **Fiona:** I think [00:44:20] I've learned a lot about how to really say what [00:44:25] I think, which I think comes sounds odd coming from a coach. 'cause I would often be saying to people, have [00:44:30] you talked to them about that? But I say it from a, we often, [00:44:35] I have caught myself. We've got lots of examples of where I will agree to [00:44:40] something 'cause it sounds like a sensible idea, but it hasn't really been something that will work for me [00:44:45] and or I haven't. Um, I haven't said I can't do something or I [00:44:50] haven't said I like, it's really taught me to be more cognizant of what I can and [00:44:55] can't do and the, the impact on, for both of us, the impact on the other [00:45:00] person if we don't do that. So, in a weird way, I would say, well, well, in a way it has [00:45:05] taught me to value reliability in a different way than I valued it [00:45:10] before. Because what I do can affect, how Alia feels about the [00:45:15] business. And so whilst I could make a, you know, a decision for myself about how I might [00:45:20] prioritize my day. It might not be how she would do it. And, and so I've had to learn to [00:45:25] be very honest, upfront, I'm still learning to be very honest, upfront and, and not kid [00:45:30] myself and, and therefore commit to something or, and then the other thing is, and I knew I kind [00:45:35] of, I really knew this before we started, but it's kind of become more visceral and [00:45:40] more true to me, is that I am selling myself and that people will pay for it. Like
[00:45:44] there was a [00:45:45] lot of imposter syndrome I alluded to before. When you're starting out and you see all the other [00:45:50] stuff that other coaches seem to be doing,
[00:45:52] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:52] **Fiona:** know, they've had three years or they've [00:45:55] had, I don't know, or they've, all smoke and mirror, you know, whatever is going on. [00:46:00] And, and everyone says like you have to, and it's true. You have [00:46:05] to the connection with the client to be able to help 'em. And they have to have a connection with [00:46:10] you because that's the thing that will help you.
[00:46:12] **David:** Yeah.
[00:46:12] **Fiona:** That's the thing that helps most [00:46:15] is trusting the other person and being able to,
[00:46:17] **David:** Yeah.
[00:46:19] **Fiona:** share everything to them. [00:46:20] And so I knew that I was selling myself, but I didn't really that [00:46:25] people would buy me,
[00:46:26] **David:** Hmm.
[00:46:27] **Fiona:** sense. And so I
[00:46:28] **David:** Yeah.
[00:46:28] **Fiona:** that the fact of [00:46:30] that happening has made me really confident in a way that I wasn't before.
[00:46:33] **David:** Yeah. I [00:46:35] think there's for coaches, you, you know, you've learned and you [00:46:40] know the things to say, the questions to ask, and that people are very [00:46:45] capable. But at the same time, when we look at ourselves, even though we [00:46:50] know the right things, we can't coach ourselves very easily.
[00:46:53] **Fiona:** No,
[00:46:54] **David:** [00:46:55] Right.
[00:46:55] **Fiona:** no.
[00:46:56] **David:** and I, I do think that there are a lot of coaches and [00:47:00] people who have imposter syndrome and, you know, it, it is hard to do a business [00:47:05] right.
[00:47:05] Because there is that fear and we have to recognize and, [00:47:10] reconcile that we do have this. And I recognize that because of a lot of coaches, [00:47:15] there's actually a lot of,
[00:47:16] this, like for the idea of marketing. [00:47:20] Like they, they don't want to go like near marketing with a, you know, 10 foot [00:47:25] pole,
[00:47:25] **Fiona:** well because it's a rejection of myself, I've gotta put myself out there
[00:47:29] **David:** right.
[00:47:29] **Fiona:** [00:47:30] and get reject, feel rejected if I don't get much of a result from that marketing.
[00:47:34] **David:** [00:47:35] Right.
[00:47:35] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:47:35] **David:** So there's a, there is a lot of fear in that too, but it's also the, the other, the flip [00:47:40] side is if you don't do any marketing, if you don't talk about the work you do, the lives that you [00:47:45] change right then, who's gonna know what you're, what you're doing and [00:47:50] then gonna come to work with you?
[00:47:51] They can't because they don't know you exist. And [00:47:55] so it's something that any business owner needs to get comfortable with is [00:48:00] being vulnerable and putting yourself out there. But it's not [00:48:05] really like, opening up your emotions and your life. You, you're just kind of saying, Hey, I'm doing this thing [00:48:10] now, but we,
[00:48:11] **Fiona:** But it feels like it.
[00:48:13] **David:** yeah.
[00:48:13] **Fiona:** know,
[00:48:14] [00:48:15] coach a VP of a company? I know nothing about like that, that, that [00:48:20] was, that was mine at the beginning. Like I.
[00:48:21] The, the higher the label of VP would, [00:48:25] uh, intimidate me a little bit, but the reality is they're just people. And, and if they've got the [00:48:30] same amount of people in an organization, I really know what's going on in there or, and what [00:48:35] to ask about.
[00:48:35] **David:** Yeah.
[00:48:36] **Fiona:** So,
[00:48:37] **David:** I mean, I think we, we forget [00:48:40] we people and labels on pedestals and we forget these are just [00:48:45] people.
[00:48:45] I just realized 'cause you have been coaching for two and a [00:48:50] half years, um, outside of Spotify. I, I'm [00:48:55] curious because every coach I've talked to, there's always at least one or two, uh, [00:49:00] there's at least this one story of a life change from the coaching that they've done. And [00:49:05] I'm, I'm curious if you have any stories that you would like to share before we, you [00:49:10] know, wrap up.
[00:49:10] **Fiona:** So one thing that is true about [00:49:15] coaching is the client knows what's in their best interest.
[00:49:18] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:49:18] **Fiona:** as a coach, I shouldn't [00:49:20] have an opinion and I don't really have an opinion. Like I don't have skin in the game of what happens to [00:49:25] them. Uh, beyond that they get a satisfying result and want to, uh, recommend [00:49:30] me further. But at the same time, the niche that we [00:49:35] have, because I am very familiar with the, I'm coaching people in tech, in corporation, startup.[00:49:40]
[00:49:40] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:49:40] **Fiona:** Ecosystems that I've been in for 20 years that are now changing with ai. [00:49:45] So how long will that be? True? I don't know. I have, I do have suspicions, I'm gonna say [00:49:50] not opinions, but I have suspicions. And so I'm thinking of one particular client that [00:49:55] I had, I coached her for two, I coached them for two [00:50:00] years. I coached them for two years and and off [00:50:05] at the beginning they were maybe a senior [00:50:10] engineering manager and by the end they were a director of engineering.
[00:50:13] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:50:14] **Fiona:** Uh, so a, [00:50:15] that was very satisfying because uh, were able to [00:50:20] their way up in this organization. And at the time when I started coaching them, they were really [00:50:25] like, I can't do this. I can't, A lot of imposter syndrome, but.
[00:50:28] **David:** Hmm.[00:50:30]
[00:50:30] **Fiona:** I also, through this whole journey with them, could see that [00:50:35] actually they should probably leave, they should probably leave this, this was not the place [00:50:40] for them.
[00:50:40] It was like a giant boulder up a hill, [00:50:45] and they didn't need to be there doing that. And so there was a [00:50:50] part of me that was like, and then by the end of our, our coaching relationship presented because they left, [00:50:55] and they don't need me there anymore. And that is [00:51:00] really satisfying to, I have always said that the coach's job is to be not needed anymore.
[00:51:04] **David:** [00:51:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:51:05] **Fiona:** that's in very small, small ways. Um, but I really can see how I [00:51:10] was such a, a support them throughout those, [00:51:15] um, struggle within that organization,
[00:51:18] and that they had an [00:51:20] entirely different view of themselves by the end. So they, they, if they had have left early [00:51:25] on, like they, they could have entertained leaving, but it would've been because they're not good enough. [00:51:30] But, but actually that journey that, um, they went on and they were leaving like on a, oh [00:51:35] no, I've done everything I can here and I've left a lot of legacy and I've learned a lot [00:51:40] and I'm, and yeah, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't have to do this. There's no
[00:51:44] **David:** Yeah.
[00:51:44] **Fiona:** I should do [00:51:45] this anymore. always true, as I said, to some small extent with whatever it is you're [00:51:50] coaching people on,
[00:51:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:51:51] **Fiona:** always have a version of people who can't stand their managers, and, and [00:51:55] sometimes that's because the managers are terrible sometimes because the communication, they don't know what it means to manage [00:52:00] up or the communication is breaking down.
[00:52:01] And the manager may or may not be an [00:52:05] effort, but you can, they can often learn a different way of being and of caring about that. [00:52:10] And managing that in a way that lets them have a really satisfying job despite what [00:52:15] they would describe as city leadership. So those are always really satisfying as [00:52:20] well.
[00:52:20] **David:** Before I close, uh, the, one of the last questions I like to [00:52:25] ask is, um, what is one piece of advice you'd give to someone just [00:52:30] beginning their coaching journey?
[00:52:31] **Fiona:** It's probably like how you run your [00:52:35] business or what your business ends up looking like isn't gonna look like. What you think it [00:52:40] will at the beginning, or you think it should at the beginning or what others look like. And so [00:52:45] there's something about brave enough to just start because those things [00:52:50] will come over time. And so yes, all the offerings [00:52:55] and content and market different things and try all those different things, but [00:53:00] it's, you're just trying until you find the thing that sticks and that's what all those other people have done [00:53:05] before you, or it hasn't stuck, like I said earlier, for them. And it's actually,
[00:53:08] **David:** Yeah.
[00:53:09] **Fiona:** [00:53:10] shadows and mirrors.
[00:53:10] So yeah, it's not gonna look like what you think it will look like or maybe it's, you [00:53:15] can't predict what it's going to look like, so don't stress about it.
[00:53:18] **David:** Yeah. I [00:53:20] think, I mean, that's, that's very true. We always, I often imagine a [00:53:25] future or an outcome that is far from reality. [00:53:30] Very often, like
[00:53:32] **Fiona:** And yet the, the reality [00:53:35] is often just as satisfying as you thought that other outcome.
[00:53:39] **David:** yes.[00:53:40]
[00:53:40] **Fiona:** And so I think the important thing is having something that you'll think you're gonna try to get to [00:53:45] and then being, I don't wanna say being content with, but, but accepting that the, the [00:53:50] point of having that goal is to keep you moving to the next thing.
[00:53:53] **David:** Yeah.
[00:53:54] **Fiona:** that that thing [00:53:55] you thought is the next thing
[00:53:57] **David:** Yeah. That outcome is not the end goal. [00:54:00] That outcome is just a,
[00:54:01] **Fiona:** Yeah.
[00:54:01] **David:** is a marker in the stand for you to, work [00:54:05] towards. Right. And being open to change. And, you know, the agile [00:54:10] philosophy, you know, you know, iterate and iterate. Iterate. Right? I think that's very important [00:54:15] because what we think will work might, may, maybe it works, but if it doesn't, then we [00:54:20] just pivot and we try something else and we keep,
[00:54:22] **Fiona:** Yeah,
[00:54:23] **David:** we're building a business, right?
[00:54:24] [00:54:25] So you need to keep moving and seeing what works until you hit on something that [00:54:30] resonates.
[00:54:30] **Fiona:** Right. And while you're still, in our case, [00:54:35] having fun doing what we wanna do and still wanting to work with each other. [00:54:40] Right. And that, I mean, that the possibility is, therefore for what we do, we joke sometimes that we could like start [00:54:45] a secondhand art supply store we would still be hitting those three things, [00:54:50] which we find is helpful.
[00:54:51] Some people would find not helpful 'cause sometimes goals should be [00:54:55] narrower than that. But yeah.
[00:54:56] **David:** No, but I, I, I think that is very important. [00:55:00] We only have one life, right? If, if we only have one life, you should be [00:55:05] doing the majority of that with having fun [00:55:10] and enjoying what you're doing. If you hate what you do, not a great life.[00:55:15]
[00:55:15] **Fiona:** No, it's, and you know, everyone hates it for a little while, but like, you don't wanna, don't wanna [00:55:20] slog. 'cause I do wanna acknowledge that people are, and expectations are [00:55:25] very much, it feels like it's very much you choose the career. You [00:55:30] that career you like, that's what we learn.
[00:55:32] That's, that's what, a lot of corporate, [00:55:35] definitely corporate, capitalistic, side of, the world. [00:55:40] Drives us to,
[00:55:41] **David:** mm-hmm.
[00:55:42] **Fiona:** and we can get now in little bubbles and not see the, [00:55:45] the possibilities outside of that and have, you know, real financial obligations,
[00:55:49] [00:55:50] that create constraints on what we feel like we can do. You are creating those yourself and so you can change them [00:55:55] as well
[00:55:56] **David:** Yeah.
[00:55:56] **Fiona:** reason.
[00:55:57] **David:** Yeah. Fiona, I thank you so much [00:56:00] for being on the podcast. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Uh, if [00:56:05] anyone wanted to get to, uh, get connected with you, how can they do [00:56:10] that?
[00:56:10] **Fiona:** They can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, that's always a good way. [00:56:15] and our website is frank and eddie.com and there's a contact phone [00:56:20] there.
[00:56:20] **David:** Okay, perfect. And we'll include links to those in the show descriptions as [00:56:25] well. And Fiona, thank you so much again. Have a wonderful day.
[00:56:29] **Fiona:** [00:56:30] Thank you. You too.
[00:56:31]