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The Question is a collaborative learning podcast about Design Systems. Smart people like you sign up, answer a few niche questions about design systems for each episode, and then we all get together to unpack the data we've gathered. Each week, I'll invite a new co-host to help facilitate the conversation. After the deep dive, the co-host and I record a recap of what we learned. That means, for each episode, you can listen to the recap and the full deep dive!
If you're a design system practitioner, subscribe today (https://bencallahan.com/the-question) to receive an invitation to each episode. This only works if the community joins in!
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Ben Callahan (00:01)
Welcome to episode 67 of The Question. My name is Ben Callahan, and I am very excited to welcome my co-host this week, Yesenia Perez-Cruz We're gonna talk about design systems that differentiate. Let's get into it.
Ben Callahan (00:15)
you've been doing this a while and I want to, if you wouldn't mind, tell us sort of a little bit about your background and how you got into design systems in particular. Yeah. I mean, so I,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (00:15)
You've been doing this a while and I want to, if you wouldn't mind, tell us sort of a little bit about your background and how you got into design systems in particular. Yeah. I mean, so I,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (00:15)
you've been doing this a while and I want to, if you wouldn't mind, tell us sort of a little bit about your background and how you got into design systems in particular. Yeah. I mean, so I,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (00:24)
when I was ⁓ in college, I studied graphic design. Like it was primarily print design. had maybe some, my Lord, what were we using back then? Dreamweaver classes, like very like basic ⁓ web classes, but it was primarily like a graphic design background. So my first job, was working at an agency.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (00:24)
When I was ⁓ in college, I studied graphic design. It was primarily print design. had maybe some, my Lord, what were we using back then? Dreamweaver classes, like very like basic ⁓ web classes, but it was primarily like a graphic design background. So my first job, was working at an agency
Ben Callahan (00:24)
When I was ⁓ in college, I studied graphic design. It was primarily print design. had maybe some, my Lord, what were we using back then? Dreamweaver classes, like very like basic ⁓ web classes, but it was primarily like a graphic design background. So my first job, was working at an agency
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (00:44)
⁓
Ben Callahan (00:44)
⁓ called Happy Cog that did a lot of responsive websites. And because I had a print background, I wasn't used to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (00:45)
called Happy Cog that did a lot of responsive websites. And because I had a print background, I wasn't used to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (00:45)
called Happy Cog that did a lot of responsive websites. And because I had a print background, I wasn't used to
making decisions in a systematic way. Like, oh, I need to not have 10 different header styles as you're going across an entire site. I think the first article that I wrote about design systems was in 2011, but it was
Ben Callahan (00:54)
making decisions in a systematic way. Like, oh, I need to not have 10 different header styles as you're going across an entire site. I think the first article that I wrote about design systems was in 2011, but it was
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (00:54)
making decisions in a systematic way. Like, oh, I need to not have 10 different header styles as you're going across an entire site. I think the first article that I wrote about design systems was in 2011, but it was
just describing my process at the time. It was literally just describing how I make decisions in a systematic way. It was nowhere near how we see design systems today.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (01:13)
just describing my process at the time. It was literally just describing how I make decisions in a systematic way. It was nowhere near how we see design systems today.
Ben Callahan (01:13)
just describing my process at the time. It was literally just describing how I make decisions in a systematic way. It was nowhere near how we see design systems today.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (01:24)
But eventually with the agency work, ended up delivering, again, I think we were calling them style guides for clients. And as part of that work, I had done some projects that had like early theming. I did a
Ben Callahan (01:24)
But eventually with the agency work, ended up delivering, again, I think we were calling them style guides for clients. And as part of that work, I had done some projects that had like early theming. I did a
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (01:24)
But eventually with the agency work, we ended up delivering, again, I think we were calling them style guides for clients. And as part of that work, I had done some projects that had like early theming. I did a...
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (01:41)
series
Ben Callahan (01:41)
series of websites for Jose Garces, who's a like restaurateur in Philadelphia. And I think the restaurants had like six different.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (01:42)
series of websites for Jose Garces, who's a like restaurant tour in Philadelphia. And I think the restaurants had like six different,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (01:42)
of websites for Jose Garces, who's a like restaurateur in Philadelphia. And I think the restaurants had like six different.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (01:51)
six different restaurants with distinct branding. And so we had to make it feel distinct. And then I got into, how do you do brand expression ⁓ in a systematic way? And so from that experience, then I led the design system at Vox Media, which was eight different, very distinct editorial brands that were
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (01:51)
six different restaurants with distinct branding. And so we had to make it feel distinct. then I got into, how do you do brand expression in a systematic way? And so from that experience, then I led the design system at Vox Media, which was eight different, very distinct editorial brands that were
Ben Callahan (01:51)
six different restaurants with distinct branding. And so we had to make it feel distinct. And then I got into, how do you do brand expression in a systematic way? And so from that experience, then I led the design system at Vox Media, which was eight different, very distinct editorial brands that were
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (02:11)
in the process of moving from having individual development teams to a shared, a centralized team and needed to ⁓
Ben Callahan (02:11)
in the process of moving from having individual development teams to a shared, a centralized team and needed to ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (02:11)
in the process of moving from having individual development teams to a a centralized team and needed to
be on a shared platform. And ⁓ after that, I moved on to Shopify and I led the Polaris design system. And again, with the same lens, they had gotten to a point in time where the system had shipped, there was good adoption, but they had noticed the sameness creep in.
Ben Callahan (02:20)
be on a shared platform. And ⁓ after that, I moved on to Shopify and I led the Polaris design system. And again, with the same lens, they had gotten to a point in time where the system had shipped, there was good adoption, but they had noticed the sameness creep in
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (02:20)
on a shared platform. And ⁓ after that, I moved on to Shopify and I led the Polaris design system. And again, with the same lens, they had gotten to a point in time where the system had shipped, there was good adoption, but they had noticed the sameness creep in.
Ben Callahan (02:40)
and you know, the point of sale team had adopted the same design system as the Shopify admin. And it felt
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (02:40)
And the point of sale team had adopted the same design system as the Shopify admin. And it felt
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (02:40)
And the point of sale team had adopted the same design system as the Shopify admin. And it felt
way too similar. The mobile team adopted the same system. And so that was really what I worked on there was how do we actually get diverse expression within a huge platform? So yeah, I was there for about almost six years. And now in the past,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (02:48)
way too similar. The mobile team adopted the same system. And so that was really what I worked on there was how do we actually get diverse expression within a huge platform. So ⁓ yeah, I was there for about almost six years. And now in the past
Ben Callahan (02:48)
way too similar. The mobile team adopted the same system. And so that was really what I worked on there was how do we actually get diverse expression within a huge platform. ⁓ So yeah, I was there for about almost six years. And now in the past
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (03:05)
couple of months, I've branched out and I've been doing some independent design work and also consulting for teams. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (03:05)
couple of months, I've branched out and I've been doing some independent design work and also consulting for teams. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (03:06)
couple of months I've branched out and I've been doing some independent design work and also consulting for teams. Yeah,
amazing. Justinia, I'm so fascinated with your approach to systems because I think so many of us come into the space looking for consistency across the interface. And it's not that I think you're against that, but I think you have this sort of lens of expression that you believe systems can empower or enable that I think a lot of us
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (03:14)
Amazing. Justinia, I'm so fascinated with your approach to systems because I think so many of us come into the space looking for consistency across the interface. And it's not that I think you're against that, but I think you have this sort of lens of expression that you believe systems can empower or enable that I think a lot of us
Ben Callahan (03:14)
Amazing. Justinia, I'm so fascinated with your approach to systems because I think so many of us come into the space looking for consistency across the interface. And it's not that I think you're against that, but I think you have this sort of lens of expression that you believe systems can empower or enable that I think a lot of us
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (03:35)
maybe leave that behind when we come into systems work. Is that a fair assessment of your kind of Yeah.
Ben Callahan (03:35)
maybe leave that behind when we come into systems work. Is that a fair assessment of your kind of Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (03:35)
maybe leave that behind when we come into systems work. Is that a fair assessment of your kind of approach?
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I consistency is good to an extent. Yeah. And that extent, think, is over exaggerated sometimes. So there's some very clear inconsistencies that can break trust, especially in products where building trust is very important. So you don't want to get an email from your bank that looks like,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (03:42)
Yeah. I mean, I think consistency is good to an extent. Yeah. And that extent, think, is over exaggerated sometimes. So there's some very clear inconsistencies that can break trust, especially in products where building trust is very important. So you don't want to get an email from your bank that looks like
Ben Callahan (03:42)
Yeah. I mean, I think consistency is good to an extent. Yeah. And that extent, think, is over exaggerated sometimes. So there's some very clear inconsistencies that can break trust, especially in products where building trust is very important. So you don't want to get an email from your bank that looks like
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (04:03)
it's a phishing email. if it's inconsistent with the brand, then yes, that can break trust. But I also think that
Ben Callahan (04:03)
it's a phishing email. if it's inconsistent with the brand, then yes, that can break trust. But I also think that
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (04:03)
it's a phishing email and if it's inconsistent with the brand, then yes, that can break trust. But I also think that
consistency can delve into a space where suddenly it's not good anymore. Like the design solution isn't good because the, what it needs to convey has been flattened so much that it's not actually communicating information. Yeah, I love this. I think it's such an important part of what we do and
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (04:11)
consistency can delve into a space where suddenly it's not good anymore. Like the design solution isn't good because the, what it needs to convey has been flattened so much that it's not actually communicating information. Yeah, I love this. I think it's such an important part of what we do. And
Ben Callahan (04:11)
consistency can delve into a space where suddenly it's not good anymore. Like the design solution isn't good because the, what it needs to convey has been flattened so much that it's not actually communicating information. Yeah, I love this. I think it's such an important part of what we do. And
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (04:30)
a lot of the challenges that we face as systems practitioners maybe stem from pushing too hard towards consistency, you know, in some ways.
Ben Callahan (04:30)
a lot of the challenges that we face as systems practitioners maybe stem from pushing too hard towards consistency, you know, in some ways.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (04:30)
A lot of the challenges that we face as systems practitioners, maybe stem from pushing too hard towards consistency in some ways.
⁓ You wrote this article not too long ago called Beyond the Plateau of Sameness. And that's something that I read probably three or four times because I think it really, I was doing some coaching work at that time and a lot of what you were sharing in this article really sort of resonated with what I felt was relevant for the person I was working with.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (04:40)
You wrote this article not too long ago called Beyond the Plateau of Sameness. And that's something that I read probably three or four times because I think it really, I was doing some coaching work at that time and a lot of what you were sharing in this article really sort of resonated with what I felt was relevant for the person I was working with.
Ben Callahan (04:40)
You wrote this article not too long ago called Beyond the Plateau of Sameness. And that's something that I read probably three or four times because I think it really, I was doing some coaching work at that time and a lot of what you were sharing in this article really sort of resonated with what I felt was relevant for the person I was working with.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (04:59)
⁓ But all of this stuff kind of comes together. And as we were chatting last week or the week before about what we might discuss, this idea of sameness kind of came up again.
Ben Callahan (04:59)
⁓ But all of this stuff kind of comes together. And as we were chatting last week or the week before about what we might discuss, this idea of sameness kind of came up again.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (05:00)
but all of this stuff kind of comes together. And as we were chatting last week or the week before about what we might discuss, this idea of sameness kind of came up again. And so,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (05:10)
We asked three specific questions of y'all this round. We asked, where do you most notice sameness emerging in your consuming products as a result of your system? And we gave you, I think five or six options there to check and you could choose multiple.
Ben Callahan (05:10)
We asked three specific questions of y'all this round. We asked, where do you most notice sameness emerging in your consuming products as a result of your system? And we gave you, I think five or six options there to check and you could choose multiple.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (05:10)
⁓ we asked three specific questions of y'all, ⁓ this round we asked, where do you most notice sameness emerging in your consuming products as a result of your system? And we gave you, I think five or six options there to check and you could choose multiple.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (05:25)
And then we asked which of the following best describes the primary goal of your system today. And we gave you four options, three options with another there. And then we gave you kind of just an open text space to answer this one.
Ben Callahan (05:25)
And then we asked which of the following best describes the primary goal of your system today. And we gave you four options, three options with another there. And then we gave you kind of just an open text space to answer this one.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (05:25)
And then we asked which of the following best describes the primary goal of your system today. And we gave you four options, three options with another there. And then we gave you kind of just an open text space to answer this one.
If you had to identify one specific part of your system's architecture that currently acts as a bottleneck to product expression, what would it be and why? And so you gave us some amazing answers in this third question, especially it was really fun to read.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (05:37)
If you had to identify one specific part of your system's architecture that currently acts as a bottleneck to product expression, what would it be and why? And so you gave us some amazing answers in this third question, especially it was really fun to read.
Ben Callahan (05:37)
If you had to identify one specific part of your system's architecture that currently acts as a bottleneck to product expression, what would it be and why? And so you gave us some amazing answers in this third question, especially it was really fun to read.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (05:52)
We sent this out to 1027 design system practitioners. got 55 responses. As always, you can click this link to go see the raw data and unpack that data for yourself.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (05:52)
We sent this out to 1027 design system practitioners. We've got 55 responses. As always, you can click this link to go see the raw data and unpack that data for yourself.
Ben Callahan (05:52)
We sent this out to 1027 design system practitioners. We've got 55 responses. As always, you can click this link to go see the raw data and unpack that data for yourself.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (06:03)
We've done some work to summarize what we read in those things here in this larger section, but let's start just by looking at the more quantitative questions that we asked. So the first one was, you know, asking you to choose where you see that sameness. And this was
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (06:03)
We've done some work to summarize what we read in those things here in this larger section, but let's start just by looking at the more quantitative ⁓ questions that we asked. So the first one was, you know, asking you to choose where you see that sameness. And this was,
Ben Callahan (06:03)
We've done some work to summarize what we read in those things here in this larger section, but let's start just by looking at the more quantitative ⁓ questions that we asked. So the first one was, you know, asking you to choose where you see that sameness. And this was,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (06:16)
I wasn't quite sure what to expect with these. It's always, you never really know, but this was a fairly even distribution. Justine, did you come to this question with any expectations or?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (06:16)
I wasn't quite sure what to expect with these. It's always, you never really know, but this was a fairly even distribution. Jacinda, did you come to this question with any expectations or?
Ben Callahan (06:16)
I wasn't quite sure what to expect with these. It's always, you never really know, but this was a fairly even distribution. Jacinda, did you come to this question with any expectations or?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (06:32)
I think I was expecting maybe more on the layout and page structure, just based on where I've seen, probably how I would answer. But I thought it was interesting that it was pretty even. The other thing that I loved was that there was a very small number of folks who said, I don't notice that. I don't see meaningful sameness in my products. think it was like, I don't know, five or six people who answered this way.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (06:32)
I think I was expecting maybe more on the layout and page structure, just based on where I've seen, probably how I would answer. But I thought it was interesting that it was pretty even. The other thing that I loved was that there was a very small number of folks who said, I don't notice that. I don't see meaningful sameness in my products. think it was like, I don't know, five or six people who answered this way.
Ben Callahan (06:32)
I think I was expecting maybe more on the layout and page structure, just based on where I've seen, probably how I would answer. But I thought it was interesting that it was pretty even. The other thing that I loved was that there was a very small number of folks who said, I don't notice that. I don't see meaningful sameness in my products. think it was like, I don't know, five or six people who answered this way.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (07:01)
I put a little question here while we're going through some of this stuff at the beginning. If you're one of the folks who answered that way, if you said, I don't notice meaningful sameness, I'd love for you to drop a sticky note just next to this answering this question. So what is unique about your architecture or your processes that removes that sameness? I just want to know. I think that's an interesting dynamic to the data here. So if you have a minute to do that, drop a drop a note, that would be fun. ⁓ And then the second question, you know, we had these sort of, we gave you kind of the list of
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (07:01)
I put a little question here while we're going through some of this stuff at the beginning. If you're one of the folks who answered that way, if you said, I don't notice meaningful sameness, I'd love for you to drop a sticky note just next to this answering this question. So what is unique about your architecture or your processes that removes that sameness? I just want to know. I think that's an interesting dynamic to the data here. So if you have a minute to do that, drop a drop a note, that would be fun. ⁓ And then the second question, you know, we had these sort of, we gave you kind of the list of
Ben Callahan (07:01)
I put a little question here while we're going through some of this stuff at the beginning. If you're one of the folks who answered that way, if you said, I don't notice meaningful sameness, I'd love for you to drop a sticky note just next to this answering this question. So what is unique about your architecture or your processes that removes that sameness? I just want to know. I think that's an interesting dynamic to the data here. So if you have a minute to do that, drop a drop a note, that would be fun. ⁓ And then the second question, you know, we had these sort of, we gave you kind of the list of
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (07:31)
you know, three options to describe your primary goal. A lot of folks here, about half were on the efficiency side. The other was cohesion and those two, you know, those are the big ones that everybody kind of talks about. Differentiation again was like, I don't know that I expected to see even this many answer that. is that what you, what was your expectation on this one, Justinia?
Ben Callahan (07:31)
you know, three options to describe your primary goal. A lot of folks here, about half were on the efficiency side. The other was cohesion and those two, you know, those are the big ones that everybody kind of talks about. Differentiation again was like, I don't know that I expected to see even this many answer that. ⁓ is that what you, what was your expectation on this one, Justinia?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (07:31)
you know, three options to describe your primary goal. A lot of folks here, about half, were on the efficiency side. The other was cohesion. And those two, you know, those are the big ones that everybody kind of talks about. Differentiation, again, was like, I don't know that I expected to see even this many answer that. is that what you, what was your expectation on this one, Justinia?
don't know if I came to it with expectations. was just curious. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I was curious about this question was because ⁓ something that I've noticed in my work is that sometimes in order to get that differentiation and reduce sameness, you have to make some things less efficient. Like, instead of being really easy to just toggle some things in Figma.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (07:56)
don't know if I came to it with expectations. was just curious. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I was curious about this question was because ⁓ something that I've noticed in my work is that sometimes in order to get that differentiation and reduce sameness, you have to make some things less efficient. Like, instead of being really easy to just toggle some things in Figma.
Ben Callahan (07:56)
don't know if I came to it with expectations. was just curious. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I was curious about this question was because ⁓ something that I've noticed in my work is that sometimes in order to get that differentiation and reduce sameness, you have to make some things less efficient. Like, instead of being really easy to just toggle some things in Figma.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (08:25)
within a card and get something out the door, you have to remove some of the convenience to get people to stop and reflect on the best visual display. that's why I was curious about the answer, but I didn't come with assumptions about how people answer that. Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's funny because a lot of the folks that I work with, they would tell me if I asked them why you have a system, they would
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (08:25)
within a card and get something out the door, you have to remove some of the convenience to get people to stop and reflect on the best visual display. So that's why I was curious about the answer, but I didn't come with assumptions about how people answer that. it's an interesting one. It's funny because a lot of the folks that I work with, they would tell me if I asked them why you have a system, they would
Ben Callahan (08:25)
within a card and get something out the door, you have to remove some of the convenience to get people to stop and reflect on the best visual display. that's why I was curious about the answer, but I didn't come with assumptions about how people answer that. Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's funny because a lot of the folks that I work with, they would tell me if I asked them why you have a system, they would
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (08:55)
probably give me both of these things, right? Like a lot, think a lot of times they come together. You know, we want to be faster and we want more cohesion. So I thought it was interesting that we kind of forced people to choose a primary. And that, that kind of definitely makes, you know, I'm sure that a lot of folks who are answering were like, Oh my gosh, I have to pick one. so yeah. Interesting. There's, there's a ton of places, a ton of directions that we could take this. One of the,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (08:55)
probably give me both of these things, right? Like a lot, think a lot of times they come together, you know, we want to be faster and we want more cohesion. So I thought it was interesting that we kind of forced people to choose a primary. And that, that kind of definitely makes, you know, I'm sure that a lot of folks who are answering were like, Oh my gosh, I have to pick one. so yeah. Interesting. There's, there's a ton of places, a ton of directions that we could take this. One of the,
Ben Callahan (08:55)
probably give me both of these things, right? Like a lot, think a lot of times they come together. You know, we want to be faster and we want more cohesion. So I thought it was interesting that we kind of forced people to choose a primary. And that, that kind of definitely makes, you know, I'm sure that a lot of folks who are answering were like, oh my gosh, I have to pick one. so yeah. Interesting. There's, there's a ton of places, a ton of directions that we could take this. One of the,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (09:24)
One of the areas that I was like, as we were digging into this a little bit, looking through the data last night and this morning, you and I were talking about, kind of just want to like dive deep here. So we were talking about some of this stuff around like, like one of the things we heard in the bottleneck answer was this idea of, ⁓ kind of summarize those here, like of course, of course, like the flexibility of the components, tokens, structures and things can sort of bottleneck you.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (09:24)
One of the areas that I was like, as we were digging into this a little bit, looking through the data last night and this morning, you and I were talking about, kind of just want to like dive deep here. So we were talking about some of this stuff around like, like one of the things we heard in the bottleneck answer was this idea of, ⁓ kind of summarize those here, like of course, of course, like the flexibility of the components, tokens, structures and things can sort of bottleneck you.
Ben Callahan (09:24)
One of the areas that I was like, as we were digging into this a little bit, looking through the data last night and this morning, you and I were talking about, kind of just want to like dive deep here. So we were talking about some of this stuff around like, like one of the things we heard in the bottleneck answer was this idea of, ⁓ kind of summarize those here, like of course, of course, like the flexibility of the components, tokens, structures, and things can sort of bottleneck you.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (09:48)
documentation was a big one, but this idea of decision paralysis was something that kind of emerged in the answers that I just was like, wow, I didn't, I wasn't thinking about it, going back, thinking back on my experience, that definitely is something that I think team consuming team struggle with. Like how does that sit with you, just any of that idea? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I try to think about the best way to approach the shape of a design system, I go back to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (09:48)
documentation was a big one, but this idea of decision paralysis was something that kind of emerged in the answers that I just was like, wow, I didn't, I wasn't thinking about it, going back, thinking back on my experience, that definitely is something that I think team consuming team struggle with. Like how does that sit with you, just any of that idea? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I try to think about the best way to approach the shape of a design system, I go back to
Ben Callahan (09:48)
documentation was a big one, but this idea of decision paralysis was something that kind of emerged in the answers that I just was like, wow, I didn't, I wasn't thinking about it, going back, like thinking back on my experience, that definitely is something that I think team consuming team struggle with. Like how does that sit with you, just any of that idea? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I try to think about the best way to approach the shape of a design system, I go back to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (10:18)
When I was a designer, when was I doing my best work? When was I in a flow state? When could I be the most creative? like, that's when I was relaxed, when I was having fun, when I could lean into my creativity. And when you don't know the bounds that you can work within. So if you're like, ⁓ I'm designing, but I don't know if I can put this line here.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (10:18)
When I was a designer, when was I doing my best work? When was I in a flow state? When could I be the most creative? like, that's when I was relaxed, when I was having fun, when I could lean into my creativity. And when you don't know the bounds that you can work within. So if you're like, ⁓ I'm designing, but I don't know if I can put this line here.
Ben Callahan (10:18)
When I was a designer, when was I doing my best work? When was I in a flow state? When could I be the most creative? like, that's when I was relaxed, when I was having fun, when I could lean into my creativity. And when you don't know the bounds that you can work within. So if you're like, ⁓ I'm designing, but I don't know if I can put this line here.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (10:46)
or I don't know if I can use this color background or, ⁓ am I going to get in trouble if I do this? Then that's, that's not going to lead to the best work because you, you know, you, you tense up. And I think, ⁓ that's how I see that, that decision paralysis leading to sameness, because what you're going to do is you're going to retreat to what feels safe, which is, which is just copying what is our, is already out there because you know that that has been approved already.
Ben Callahan (10:46)
or I don't know if I can use this color background or, ⁓ am I going to get in trouble if I do this? Then that's, that's not going to lead to the best work because you, you know, you, you tense up. And I think, ⁓ that's how I see that, that decision paralysis leading to sameness, because what you're going to do is you're going to retreat to what feels safe, which is, which is just copying what is our, is already out there because you know that that has been approved already.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (10:46)
or I don't know if I can use this color background or, ⁓ am I going to get in trouble if I do this? Then that's, that's not going to lead to the best work because you, you you, you tense up. And I think, ⁓ that's how I see that, that decision paralysis leading to sameness, because what you're going to do is you're going to retreat to what feels safe, which is, which is just copying what is our, is already out there because you know that that has been approved already.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (11:16)
Yeah. I don't think that's what we want. Right. Like I know that we want cohesion. We want consistency and all those things, but not at the cost of sacrificing like the brand expression, you know? And so we have to, we have to solve this. It's what I hear. What I hear you saying is like the lack of clarity in what I'm permitted to permitted to do takes away the safety of design. that? Yeah. Yeah. like I think
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (11:16)
Yeah. I don't think that's what we want. Right. Like I know that we want cohesion. We want consistency and all those things, but not at the cost of sacrificing like the brand expression, you know? And so we have to, we have to solve this. It's what I hear. What I hear you saying is like the lack of clarity in what I'm permitted to permitted to do takes away the safety of design. that? Yeah. Yeah. like I think
Ben Callahan (11:16)
Yeah. I don't think that's what we want. Right. Like I know that we want cohesion. We want consistency and all those things, but not at the cost of sacrificing like the brand expression, you know? And so we have to, we have to solve this. It's what I hear. What I hear you saying is like the lack of clarity in what I'm permitted to permitted to do takes away the safety of design. that? Yeah. Yeah. like I think
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (11:46)
knowing the bounds that you're that you can work within and how you actually solve design problems with the design language. Okay, this is this is awesome. This is we're we're diving deep folks. This is where you can raise your hand jump right in. Do you have something to add to the conversation a question an experience that's relevant? ⁓ And while you're getting ready for that, I'll just direct you over to to some of the discussion that just any and I have been having around this like
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (11:46)
knowing the bounds that you're that you can work within and how you actually solve design problems with the design language. Okay, this is this is awesome. This is we're we're diving deep folks. This is where you can raise your hand jump right in. Do you have something to add to the conversation a question an experience that's relevant? ⁓ And while you're getting ready for that, I'll just direct you over to to some of the discussion that just any and I have been having around this like
Ben Callahan (11:46)
knowing the bounds that you're that you can work within and how you actually solve design problems with the design language. Okay, this is this is awesome. This is we're we're diving deep folks. This is where you can raise your hand jump right in. Do you have something to add to the conversation a question an experience that's relevant? ⁓ And while you're getting ready for that, I'll just direct you over to to some of the discussion that just any and I have been having around this like
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (12:13)
and some things that she's used in the past to kind of encourage that, ⁓ that kind of creativity with systems work. Stephen, welcome buddy, what's up?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (12:13)
and some things that she's used in the past to kind of encourage that, ⁓ that kind of creativity with systems work. Stephen, welcome buddy, what's up?
Ben Callahan (12:13)
and some things that she's used in the past to kind of encourage that, ⁓ that kind of creativity with systems work. Stephen, welcome buddy, what's up?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (12:22)
Yo, hey guys. ⁓ You know, this reminds me of working with AI recently because it does whatever it can to not follow the rules. ⁓ You know, it's like it's trying to places where the design system documentation doesn't quite, you know, forbid something, but it explores that area anyway. But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. It feels very like we could have a similar conversation about AI.
Ben Callahan (12:22)
Yo, hey guys. ⁓ You know, this reminds me of working with AI recently because it does whatever it can to not follow the rules. ⁓ You know, it's like it's trying to places where the design system documentation doesn't quite, you know, forbid something, but it explores that area anyway. But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. It feels very like we could have a similar conversation about AI.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (12:22)
Yo, hey guys. ⁓ You know, this reminds me of working with AI recently because it does whatever it can to not follow the rules. ⁓ You know, it's like it's trying to places where the design system documentation doesn't quite, you know, forbid something, but it explores that area anyway. But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. feels very like we could have a similar conversation about AI.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (12:52)
related to this topic to you. Yeah. Yeah. Are you thinking of it specifically as like having it design things for you?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (12:52)
Related to this topic too. Yeah. Yeah. Are you thinking of it specifically as like having it design things for you?
Ben Callahan (12:52)
Related to this topic too. Yeah. Yeah. Are you thinking of it specifically as like having it design things for you?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (13:00)
Yeah, I mean the idea of like, want to have constraints, but we want to have like constraints that still sort of allow for creative freedom. it's interesting to see like that human can take that many different ways, but still kind of an AI. So it's kind of the same question. Like, where are the proper constraints? Where is there room for creative exploration and sort of, you know,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (13:00)
Yeah, I mean the idea of like, want to have constraints, but we want to have like constraints that still sort of allow for creative freedom. it's interesting to see like that human can take that many different ways, but still kind of an AI. So it's kind of the same question. Like, where are the proper constraints? Where is there room for creative exploration and sort of, you know,
Ben Callahan (13:00)
Yeah, I mean the idea of like, want to have constraints, but we want to have like constraints that still sort of allow for creative freedom. it's interesting to see like that human can take that many different ways, but still kind of an AI. So it's kind of the same question. where are the proper constraints? Where is there room for creative exploration and sort of, you know,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (13:29)
getting rid of the product sameness problem. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Go ahead, Justine. Yeah, no, I've definitely thought about that.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (13:29)
Getting rid of the product sameness problem. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Go ahead, just any. Yeah, no, I've definitely thought about that like.
Ben Callahan (13:29)
Getting rid of the product sameness problem. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Go ahead, just any. Yeah, no, I've definitely thought about that like.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (13:40)
Where, how, how are companies prioritizing the types of tasks that they give to an AI that is going to need more explicit, even more explicit boundaries versus a person, I think more defining the design language as a tool that they can use to have that creative freedom can be very liberating, but it does, I think there's that bit of judgment that a person can use to say like, but is this working well?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (13:40)
Where, how, how are companies prioritizing the types of tasks that they give to an AI that is going to need more explicit, even more explicit boundaries versus a person, I think more defining the design language as a tool that they can use to have that creative freedom can be very liberating, but it does, I think there's that bit of judgment that a person can use to say like, but is this working well?
Ben Callahan (13:40)
Where, how, how are companies prioritizing the types of tasks that they give to an AI that is going to need more explicit, even more explicit boundaries versus a person, I think more defining the design language as a tool that they can use to have that creative freedom can be very liberating, but it does, I think there's that bit of judgment that a person can use to say like, but is this working well?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (14:09)
So yeah, I think that there's definitely that interesting balance of how you meet both ends of the spectrum. And I'm looking at the chat here too, and I see Kaleigh's comment. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, buddy, but it says, everything looks too much the same, ⁓ maybe is a good problem to have, right? So this to me is like, okay, there's a fundamental disagreement maybe in like philosophy here, which I think is really interesting for us to unpack. So.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (14:09)
So yeah, I think that there's definitely that interesting balance of how you meet both ends of the spectrum. And I'm looking at the chat here too, and I see Kaleigh's comment. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, buddy, but it says, everything looks too much the same, ⁓ maybe is a good problem to have, right? So this to me is like, okay, there's a fundamental disagreement maybe in like philosophy here, which I think is really interesting for us to unpack. So.
Ben Callahan (14:09)
So yeah, I think that there's definitely that interesting balance of how you meet both ends of the spectrum. And I'm looking at the chat here too, and I see Kaelig's comment. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, buddy, but it says, everything looks too much the same, ⁓ maybe is a good problem to have, right? So this to me is like, okay, there's a fundamental disagreement maybe in like philosophy here, which I think is really interesting for us to unpack. So.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (14:36)
know, just sending out, would you respond to this idea that like it's what we want is everything to look the same? Well, I, I think that. There's phases to design systems, and so yeah, typically when you start out a design system, the reason that most teams do it is because they want that convergence they want. have too much and they're trying to reduce. So yeah, absolutely. And then it's like. Once you get there.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (14:36)
know, just sending out, would you respond to this idea that like it's what we want is everything to look the same? Well, I, I think that. There's phases to design systems, and so yeah, typically when you start out a design system, the reason that most teams do it is because they want that convergence they want. have too much and they're trying to reduce. So yeah, absolutely. And then it's like. Once you get there.
Ben Callahan (14:36)
know, just sending out, would you respond to this idea that like it's what we want is everything to look the same? Well, I, I think that. There's phases to design systems, and so yeah, typically when you start out a design system, the reason that most teams do it is because they want that convergence they want. have too much and they're trying to reduce. So yeah, absolutely. And then it's like. Once you get there.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (15:05)
The problem is convergence, how do you get to the convergence without getting stuck in place? And I think that's the problem, when I see sameness as a problem. Because if you created a design system five years ago, you're converging on the way that the product existed five years ago, but you need to be able to move from there. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (15:05)
The problem is convergence, how do you get to the convergence without getting stuck in place? And I think that's the problem, when I see sameness as a problem. Because if you created a design system five years ago, you're converging on the way that the product existed five years ago, but you need to be able to move from there. ⁓
Ben Callahan (15:05)
The problem is convergence, how do you get to the convergence without getting stuck in place? And I think that's the problem, when I see sameness as a problem. Because if you created a design system five years ago, you're converging on the way that the product existed five years ago, but you need to be able to move from there. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (15:32)
⁓ Yeah, that's a good point. ⁓ What do we mean by expression? To me, ⁓ expression doesn't necessarily have to mean like brand expression, like personality. When I say expression, mean, does the thing that you're using look like the action that you're taking? So if you have something that is a I use the Mac ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (15:32)
⁓ Yeah, that's a good point. ⁓ What do we mean by expression? To me, ⁓ expression doesn't necessarily have to mean like brand expression, like personality. When I say expression, mean, does the thing that you're using look like the action that you're taking? So if you have something that is a I use the Mac ⁓
Ben Callahan (15:32)
⁓ Yeah, that's a good point. ⁓ What do we mean by expression? To me, ⁓ expression doesn't necessarily have to mean like brand expression, like personality. When I say expression, mean, does the thing that you're using look like the action that you're taking? So if you have something that is a I use the Mac ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (16:02)
the, what do you call it? The control center versus the system settings as a good example of that, or like the control center, it has really big affordances. It is meant for that quick preview and quick action while system settings has very tiny, uh, controls at much more explanatory text. And so you get a spectrum of, uh, of a UI that's tailored for the tasks that you're doing. So that's what I mean for, for expression primarily. Yeah. Matt jump in.
Ben Callahan (16:02)
the, what do you call it? The control center versus the system settings as a good example of that, or like the control center, it has really big affordances. It is meant for that quick preview and quick action while system settings has very tiny, uh, controls at much more explanatory text. And so you get a spectrum of, uh, of a UI that's tailored for the tasks that you're doing. So that's what I mean for, for expression primarily. Yeah. Matt jump in.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (16:02)
the, what do you call it? The control center versus the system settings as a good example of that, or like the control center, it has really big affordances. It is meant for that quick preview and quick action while system settings has very tiny, ⁓ controls at much more explanatory text. And so you get a spectrum of, ⁓ of UI that's tailored for the tasks that you're doing. So that's what I mean for, for expression primarily. Yeah. Matt jump in.
Hey, I'm at I'm also a big fan, Yesenia and got to be in the script. My first time here. I had a question. I read your article too, and I've been thinking about. Well, I I work for the New York Times and our designers here can be very particular about typography, especially. And I was thinking about like we've had some design systems like come and go that were really strict on like this should be like text small text medium text large and then a stakeholder comes in and was in like.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (16:33)
Hey, I'm at I'm also a big fan, yesenia and got to be in this group. My first time here. I had a question. I read your article too, and I've been thinking about. ⁓ I work for the New York Times and our designers here can be very particular about typography, especially. And I was thinking about like we've had some design systems like come and go that were really strict on like this should be like text small text medium text large and then a stakeholder comes in and was in like.
Ben Callahan (16:33)
Hey, I'm at I'm also a big fan, yesenia and that'd be in the script. My first time here. I had a question. I read your article too, and I've been thinking about. Well, I I work for the New York Times and our designers here can be very particular about typography, especially. And I was thinking about like we've had some design systems like come and go that were really strict on like this should be like text small text medium text large and then a stakeholder comes in and was in like.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (17:03)
I want 15. And normally I'm like, oh no, but I'm trying to let it go. But one thing I was thinking about was kind of like the culture of like the places we work at too. when we let go of like the rigid rules, like I think a cool opportunity maybe is like the culture of like the design or can come out a little bit more too. But there's also like room for chaos in there too. So I was curious, like, have you experienced that? And like, I don't know, sort of like giving up design systems control and giving the control to like the customers, like.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (17:03)
I want 15. And normally I'm like, no, but I'm trying to let it go. But one thing I was thinking about was kind of like the culture of like the places we work at too. when we let go of like the rigid rules, like I think a cool opportunity maybe is like the culture of like the design or can come out a little bit more too. But there's also like room for chaos in there too. So I was curious, like, have you experienced that? And like, I don't know, sort of like giving up design systems control and giving the control to like the customers, like.
Ben Callahan (17:03)
I want 15. And normally I'm like, no, but I'm trying to let it go. But one thing I was thinking about was kind of like the culture of like the places we work at too. when we let go of like the rigid rules, like I think a cool opportunity maybe is like the culture of like the design or can come out a little bit more too. But there's also like room for chaos in there too. So I was curious, like, have you experienced that? And like, I don't know, sort of like giving up design systems control and giving the control to like the customers, like.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (17:31)
how do they sort of manage it themselves based off like the culture of the org? ⁓ yeah, that's a great question. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (17:31)
how do they sort of manage it themselves based off like the culture of the org? ⁓ yeah, that's a great question. ⁓
Ben Callahan (17:31)
how do they sort of manage it themselves based off like the culture of the org? ⁓ yeah, that's a great question. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (17:44)
⁓ The way that I have primarily thought about it is, know, design systems, you have layers. So you have your token layer, you have your components, you have ⁓ your compositions. So as much as possible, I try to get people to think how far can you push things at the compositional layer before we get to changing things at the token layer. But that's also because I think you can do something more powerful.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (17:44)
The way that I have primarily thought about it is, know, design systems, you have layers. So you have your token layer, you have your components, you have ⁓ your compositions. So as much as possible, I try to get people to think how far can you push things at the compositional layer before we get to changing things at the token layer. But that's also because I think you can do something more powerful.
Ben Callahan (17:44)
The way that I have primarily thought about it is, know, design systems, you have layers. So you have your token layer, you have your components, you have ⁓ your compositions. So as much as possible, I try to get people to think how far can you push things at the compositional layer before we get to changing things at the token layer. But that's also because I think you can do something more powerful.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (18:14)
at that layer than you can at the token layer. Just to give an example, you could have ⁓ a team that is trying to make a promo card component stand out in a feed on a home screen. And they're asking for, well, can we add a specific token for promo, ⁓ like a new color? And I would push back on that. I would say, what can you do that is actually more powerful to indicate that this is a promotion? So if you look at...
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (18:14)
at that layer than you can ⁓ at the token layer. Just to give an example, you could have ⁓ a team that is trying to make a promo card component stand out in a feed on a home screen. And they're asking for, well, can we add a specific token for promo, ⁓ like a new color? And I would push back on that. I would say, what can you do that is actually more powerful to indicate that this is a promotion? So if you look at...
Ben Callahan (18:14)
at that layer than you can at the token layer. Just to give an example, you could have ⁓ a team that is trying to make a promo card component stand out in a feed on a home screen. And they're asking for, well, can we add a specific token for promo, ⁓ like a new color? And I would push back on that. I would say, what can you do that is actually more powerful to indicate that this is a promotion? So if you look at...
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (18:44)
Uber Eats has this promo card that literally looks like a coupon that's sitting at a different ZN decks that has like inset notches and it's a much stronger visual representation of a promotion. So I usually push back if the change is going to create some debt that we have to manage while also not solving the customer problem well. But if it solves the customer problem really well, then that's a better
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (18:44)
Uber Eats has this promo card that literally looks like a coupon that's sitting at a different Z index that has like inset notches and it's a much stronger visual representation of a promotion. So I usually push back if the change is going to create some debt that we have to manage while also not solving the customer problem well. But if it solves the customer problem really well, then that's a better
Ben Callahan (18:44)
Uber Eats has this promo card that literally looks like a coupon that's sitting at a different ZN decks that has like inset notches and it's a much stronger visual representation of a promotion. So I usually push back if the change is going to create some debt that we have to manage while also not solving the customer problem well. But if it solves the customer problem really well, that's a ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (19:12)
That's a better trade off
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (19:12)
That's a better trade off
Ben Callahan (19:12)
better trade-off.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (19:13)
for inferring, like taking on some debt, especially if it lives more at that composition level. Yeah. This idea of composition came up a few times. And I think I read, I feel that that is also a big part of your article, your recent article, just sending it. It's like this idea of like, when is it right to create more complexity inside of a component in terms of like configuring it versus separate that out and give that control, you know, to, folks to choose in a, in a
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (19:13)
for inferring, like taking on some debt, especially if it lives more at that composition level. Yeah. This idea of composition came up a few times and I think I read, I feel that that is also a big part of your article, your recent article, just sending it. It's like this idea of like, when is it right to create more complexity inside of a component in terms of like configuring it versus separate that out and give that control, you know, to, folks to choose in a, in a
Ben Callahan (19:13)
for like taking on some debt, especially if it lives more at that composition level. Yeah, this idea of composition came up a few times. And I think I read, I feel that that is also a big part of your article, your recent article, just sending it. It's like this idea of like, when is it right to create more complexity inside of a component in terms of like configuring it versus separate that out and give that control, you know, to folks to choose in a ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (19:42)
compositional way, how they build a thing. ⁓ So there's a lot of good folks reference that in their answers as well. ⁓ Stephen, what's up?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (19:42)
compositional way, how they build a thing. ⁓ So there's a lot of good folks reference that in their answers as well. ⁓ Stephen, what's up?
Ben Callahan (19:42)
compositional way, how they build a thing. ⁓ So there's a lot of good folks reference that in their answers as well. ⁓ Stephen, what's up?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (19:53)
think we're circling around a question of when. When is it appropriate for the responsibility or the decision rights to pass between the system and the individual designer? So Ysenia, do you have any thoughts on the when? What are the criteria where the responsibility or decision rights shift from the system to the individual?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (19:53)
think we're circling around a question of when. When is it appropriate for the responsibility or the decision rights to pass between the system and the individual designer? So Ysenia, do you have any thoughts on the when? What are the criteria where the responsibility or decision rights shift from the system to the individual?
Ben Callahan (19:53)
think we're circling around a question of when. When is it appropriate for the responsibility or the decision rights to pass between the system and the individual designer? So Ysenia, do you have any thoughts on the when? What are the criteria where the responsibility or decision rights shift from the system to the individual?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (20:13)
Do you mean in terms of creating something that is that's different? You're talking about it. Yeah, you're talking about expression and expression. The way I'm thinking about it is like specific product expression, specific designer expression. Like how does the designer solve this particular product differentiation problem? So when? Do you differentiate between the design system and this individual product?
Ben Callahan (20:13)
Do you mean in terms of creating something that is that's different? You're talking about it. Yeah, you're talking about expression and expression. The way I'm thinking about it is like specific product expression, specific designer expression. Like how does the designer solve this particular product ⁓ differentiation problem? So when? Do you differentiate between the design system and this individual product?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (20:13)
Do you mean in terms of creating something that is that's different? You're talking about it. Yeah, you're talking about expression and expression. The way I'm thinking about it is like specific product expression, specific designer expression. Like how does the designer solve this particular product ⁓ differentiation problem? So when? Do you differentiate between the design system and this individual product?
Ben Callahan (20:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think a good point in time is if you are creating a new product feature or product line that didn't exist at the time that the design system was created. So you're actually pushing the edges of what the design system has available to you. At that point in time, you're really redefining a whole new set of patterns. ⁓ I think other times,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (20:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think a good point in time is if you are creating a new product feature or product line that didn't exist at the time that the design system was created. So you're actually pushing the edges of what the design system has available to you. At that point in time, you're really redefining a whole new set of patterns. ⁓ I think other times,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (20:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think a good point in time is if you are creating a new product feature or product line that didn't exist at the time that the design system was created. So you're actually pushing the edges of what the design system has available to you. At that point in time, you're really redefining a whole new set of patterns. ⁓ I think other times,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (21:09)
Like, can I pan over? Will people see where I am in the big jam? I wanted to show that. I can follow you. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (21:09)
Like, can I pan over? Will people see where I am in the big jam? I wanted to show that. I can follow you. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (21:09)
Like, can I pan over? Will people see where I am in the big jam? I wanted to show that. I can follow you. Yeah. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (21:20)
Go for it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (21:20)
Go for it.
Ben Callahan (21:20)
Go for it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (21:24)
Again, another case was, you know, if you have something, this is against just speaking to composition. know, this is using both of these screens are using the exact same like tokens, but there the information is presented in a different way. So I think in the like the shaping of information is another time. Like, I think that design systems give you the basic building blocks, but there's so much that you can do within the
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (21:24)
Again, another case was, you know, if you have something, this is against just speaking to composition. know, this is using both of these screens are using the exact same like tokens, but there the information is presented in a different way. So I think in the like the shaping of information is another time. Like, I think that design systems give you the basic building blocks, but there's so much that you can do within the
Ben Callahan (21:24)
Again, another case was, you know, if you have something, this is against just speaking to composition. know, this is using both of these screens are using the exact same like tokens, but there the information is presented in a different way. So I think in the like the shaping of information is another time. Like, I think that design systems give you the basic building blocks, but there's so much that you can do within the
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (21:52)
information that lives inside the components where we should encourage people to flex there. This is so good. ⁓ just a little bit above this, there's this concept up above ⁓ sort of like decision and permission frameworks. I think this is getting at what you're asking about, Steven, you know, like, when is it okay for me to veer? Right. And, ⁓ you know, some of these exercises that Yesenia is sharing here, like
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (21:52)
information that lives inside the components where we should encourage people to flex there. This is so good. ⁓ just a little bit above this, there's this concept up above ⁓ sort of like decision and permission frameworks. I think this is getting at what you're asking about, Steven, you know, like, when is it okay for me to veer? Right. And, ⁓ you know, some of these exercises that Yesenia is sharing here, like
Ben Callahan (21:52)
information that lives inside the components where we should encourage people to flex there. This is so good. ⁓ just a little bit above this, there's this concept up above ⁓ sort of like decision and permission frameworks. I think this is getting at what you're asking about, Steven, you know, like, when is it okay for me to veer? Right. And, ⁓ you know, some of these exercises that Yesenia is sharing here, like
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (22:21)
start with a blank canvas, don't start with the system, right? Like that's like a message that I have not heard many system leaders say to product people, right? But I love the idea of like solve the problem in a real way. We can always refactor things into system usage if we need to, but let's explore and solve the real problem, you know? And if that requires veering from the system or extending it in some way, that's okay because we're serving our end users, right? And that's maybe our ultimate goal.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (22:21)
start with a blank canvas, don't start with the system, right? Like that's like a message that I have not heard many system leaders say to product people, right? But I love the idea of like solve the problem in a real way. We can always refactor things into system usage if we need to, but let's explore and solve the real problem, you know? And if that requires veering from the system or extending it in some way, that's okay because we're serving our end users, right? And that's maybe our ultimate goal.
Ben Callahan (22:21)
start with a blank canvas, don't start with the system, right? Like that's like a message that I have not heard many system leaders say to product people, right? But I love the idea of like solve the problem in a real way. We can always refactor things into system usage if we need to, but let's explore and solve the real problem, you know? And if that requires veering from the system or extending it in some way, that's okay because we're serving our end users, right? And that's maybe our ultimate goal.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (22:50)
Does that align with your thinking, Yesenia? Yeah, and that reminded me, I saw a really good talk. I'll see if I can find it, but it was from, I think his name was Cam, and it was like a config talk addressing sameness. And he had described this exactly that, tell the designer, start from the blank canvas. But then they had built a linting tool that would then, you could run the linting tool on what you had created, and it would tell you, okay, here's the token, like,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (22:50)
Does that align with your thinking, Yesenia? Yeah, and that reminded me, I saw a really good talk. I'll see if I can find it, but it was from, I think his name was Cam, and it was like a config talk addressing sameness. And he had described this exactly that, tell the designer start from the blank canvas. But then they had built a linting tool that would then, you could run the linting tool on what you had created. And it would tell you, okay, here's the token, like,
Ben Callahan (22:50)
Does that align with your thinking, Yesenia Yeah, and that reminded me, I saw a really good talk. I'll see if I can find it, but it was from, I think his name was Cam, and it was like a config talk addressing sameness. And he had described this exactly that, tell the designer start from the blank canvas. But then they had built a linting tool that would then, you could run the linting tool on what you had created. And it would tell you, okay, here's the token, like,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (23:19)
here's this token that actually matches to one that exists in the system. And so it would catch things like, all right, you have 15 pixel font here, but it should be 14 using this token. And so it found that balance of giving people a blank canvas, but then once they've diverged and found the best solution, they then can reel it back ⁓ to follow more closely with the system. Yeah, I love that. Guy, what's up, buddy? Good to see you.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (23:19)
here's this token that actually matches to one that exists in the system. And so it would catch things like, all right, you have 15 pixel font here, but it should be 14 using this token. And so it found that balance of giving people a blank canvas, but then once they've diverged and found the best solution, they then can reel it back ⁓ to follow more closely with the system. Yeah, I love that. Guy, what's up, buddy? Good to see you.
Ben Callahan (23:19)
here's this token that actually matches to one that exists in the system. And so it would catch things like, all right, you have 15 pixel font here, but it should be 14 using this token. And so it found that balance of giving people a blank canvas, but then once they've diverged and found the best solution, they then can reel it back ⁓ to follow more closely with the system. Yeah, I love that. Guy, what's up, buddy? Good to see you.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (23:50)
Hey, hey, ⁓ this conversation makes me realize that I have a completely different experience to what people are talking here because ⁓ I would never ⁓ tell designers what they need to use because ⁓ why would they listen to me? ⁓ Designers do whatever they want. I don't know if you noticed it. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (23:50)
Hey, hey, ⁓ this conversation makes me realize that I have a completely different experience to what people are talking here because ⁓ I would never ⁓ tell designers what they need to use because ⁓ why would they listen to me? ⁓ Designers do whatever they want. I don't know if you noticed it. ⁓
Ben Callahan (23:50)
Hey, hey, ⁓ this conversation makes me realize that I have a completely different experience to what people are talking here because ⁓ I would never ⁓ tell designers what they need to use because ⁓ why would they listen to me? ⁓ Designers do whatever they want. I don't know if you noticed it. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (24:19)
We have more than zero detaches in the system. I really want to start from designers know their designers and the product managers and all the people who working on the, I would call it the frontline of the product. They know what their users need. They know what the best experience is. And if it's something that we can find commonalities across different things, then perfect for standardizing within the design system.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (24:20)
We have more than zero detaches in the system. ⁓ I really want to start from designers know their designers and the product managers and all the people who are working on the, I would call it the frontline of the product. They know what their users need. They know what the best experience is. And if it's something that we can find commonalities across different things, then perfect for standardizing within the design system.
Ben Callahan (24:20)
We have more than zero detaches in the system. ⁓ I really want to start from designers know their designers and the product managers and all the people who are working on the, I would call it the frontline of the product. They know what their users need. They know what the best experience is. And if it's something that we can find commonalities across different things, then perfect for standardizing within the design system.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (24:47)
I'm not going to be the one who dictates for dictates for them. I can again say, Hey, do you really need to use ⁓ a circular button instead of the button that everyone else is using? But if they say, you know what, in this case we do then yeah, go ahead. ⁓ I don't want to be a police for that. I love that perspective guy. I think that like, if I was trying to sort of play the other side of that,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (24:47)
I'm not going to be the one who dictates for dictates for them. I can again say, Hey, do you really need to use ⁓ a circular button instead of the button that everyone else is using? But if they say, you know what, in this case we do then yeah, go ahead. ⁓ I don't want to be a police for that. I love that perspective guy. I think that like, if I was trying to sort of play the other side of that,
Ben Callahan (24:47)
I'm not going to be the one who dictates for dictates for them. I can again say, Hey, do you really need to use ⁓ a circular button instead of the button that everyone else is using? But if they say, you know what, in this case we do then yeah, go ahead. ⁓ I don't want to be a police for that. I love that perspective guy. I think that like, if I was trying to sort of play the other side of that,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (25:17)
I would say to you, okay, what promises did you make the organization that the system would deliver? And if the system's gonna deliver efficiency and you have enabled design teams, product teams to go and do, in this case, like they could sort of say they wanna do what they wanna do, are we giving up the metrics that we've promised? Are we not able to deliver on our promises because of decisions being made by other parts of the org, right? So how do you address that?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (25:18)
I would say to you, okay, what promises did you make the organization that the system would deliver? And if the system's gonna deliver efficiency and you have enabled design teams, product teams to go and do, in this case, like they could sort of say they wanna do what they wanna do, are we giving up the metrics that we've promised? Are we not able to deliver on our promises because of decisions being made by other parts of the org, right? So how do you address that?
Ben Callahan (25:18)
I would say to you, okay, what promises did you make the organization that the system would deliver? And if the system's gonna deliver efficiency and you have enabled design teams, product teams to go and do, in this case, like they could sort of say they wanna do what they wanna do, are we giving up the metrics that we've promised? Are we not able to deliver on our promises because of decisions being made by other parts of the org, right? So how do you address that?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (25:46)
Yeah, and this is where the fact that we're part of a system, not the design system, but we're part of a system of people and organization comes into play because you would have an engineering team would ask, why do I need to now spend time coding something that already exists? would have researchers who go and test the products with customers and say, you know what?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (25:46)
Yeah, and this is where the fact that we're part of a system, not the design system, but we're part of a system of people and organization comes into play because you would have an engineering team would ask, why do I need to now spend time coding something that already exists? would have researchers who go and test the products with customers and say, you know what?
Ben Callahan (25:46)
Yeah, and this is where the fact that we're part of a system, not the design system, but we're part of a system of people and organization comes into play because you would have an engineering team would ask, why do I need to now spend time coding something that already exists? would have researchers who go and test the products with customers and say, you know what?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (26:09)
the fact that you're editing a document one way here and editing a document here, our customers have literally told us, feel like your products have been created. It feels like you're shipping the org structure. One of the customers said that to us. And then we can be there and say, hey, we have a way to mitigate that. But it's always a conversation. Until I would say,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (26:09)
the fact that you're editing a document one way here and editing a document here, our customers have literally told us, feel like your products have been created. It feels like you're shipping the org structure. One of the customers said that to us. And then we can be there and say, hey, we have a way to mitigate that. But it's always a conversation. Until I would say,
Ben Callahan (26:09)
the fact that you're editing a document one way here and editing a document here, our customers have literally told us, feel like your products have been created. It feels like you're shipping the org structure. One of the customers said that to us. And then we can be there and say, hey, we have a way to mitigate that. But it's always a conversation. Until I would say,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (26:35)
This year, I mean, our design system has been around for four years. This is the first year that the design org itself is becoming aware of, you know what, maybe we should have a bit more consistency in how we do things. And it's great. It doesn't matter how much I advocated for that before. Some people were listening and some people just didn't care because for them it's features, features, features. So it's not...
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (26:35)
This year, I mean, our design system has been around for four years. This is the first year that the design org itself is becoming aware of, you know what, maybe we should have a bit more consistency in how we do things. And it's great. it doesn't matter how much I advocated for that before. Some people were listening and some people just didn't care because for them it's features, features, features. So it's not.
Ben Callahan (26:35)
This year, I mean, our design system has been around for four years. This is the first year that the design org itself is becoming aware of, you know what, maybe we should have a bit more consistency in how we do things. And it's great. it doesn't matter how much I advocated for that before. Some people were listening and some people just didn't care because for them it's features, features, features. So it's not.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (27:03)
It's never an either or. It's really, really trying to find those places where it makes sense for me to push a bit more and other places where I say, you know what, do what you need. And I kind of know that eventually you're going to come to our side.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (27:03)
It's never an either or, it's really trying to find those places where it makes sense for me to push a bit more and other places where I say, you know what, do what you need. And I kind of know that eventually you're going to come to our side.
Ben Callahan (27:03)
It's never an either or, it's really trying to find those places where it makes sense for me to push a bit more and other places where I say, you know what, do what you need. And I kind of know that eventually you're going to come to our side.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (27:19)
is ⁓ getting at what I think maybe Stephen was hinting at earlier, which is like the culture of the org should drive the cohesion. You know, we should be making decisions in our interfaces across the organization that align with who we want to be and what we want to express. And the system can kind of come in and provide, look for the patterns that are consistent and systematize those and make them easy to use and all of those things. But, ⁓ there has to be that organizational wide agreement, you know,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (27:19)
this is ⁓ getting at what I think maybe Stephen was hinting at earlier, which is like the culture of the org should drive the cohesion. You know, we should be making decisions in our interfaces across the organization that align with who we want to be and what we want to express. And the system can kind of come in and provide, look for the patterns that are consistent and systematize those and make them easy to use and all of those things. But, ⁓ there has to be that organizational wide agreement, you know,
Ben Callahan (27:19)
this is ⁓ getting at what I think maybe Stephen was hinting at earlier, which is like the culture of the org should drive the cohesion. You know, we should be making decisions in our interfaces across the organization that align with who we want to be and what we want to express. And the system can kind of come in and provide, look for the patterns that are consistent and systematize those and make them easy to use and all of those things. But, ⁓ there has to be that organizational wide agreement, you know,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (27:49)
I just want to say reply to something that Sarah put in the chat because I think it's a really good point. Hey, Sarah, I hope you're okay in Minneapolis. I don't see it as a binary. I don't see it as either we police people or it's complete chaos. I think there's a lot of middle ground to find between, hey, here's our stance. Here's what we recommend. Here are the efficiencies you're going to get if you use this.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (27:49)
I just want to say reply to something that Sarah put in the chat because I think it's a really good point. Hey, Sarah, I hope you're okay in Minneapolis. ⁓ I don't see it as a binary. I don't see it as either we police people or it's complete chaos. I think there's a lot of middle ground to find between, hey, here's our stance. Here's what we recommend. Here are the efficiencies you're going to get if you use this.
Ben Callahan (27:49)
I just want to say reply to something that Sarah put in the chat because I think it's a really good point. Hey, Sarah, I hope you're okay in Minneapolis. ⁓ I don't see it as a binary. I don't see it as either we police people or it's complete chaos. I think there's a lot of middle ground to find between, hey, here's our stance. Here's what we recommend. Here are the efficiencies you're going to get if you use this.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (28:18)
However, if you see something that you see performs better with your users.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (28:18)
However, if you see something that you see performs better with your users.
Ben Callahan (28:18)
However, if you see something that you see performs better with your users.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (28:24)
Let's talk about it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (28:24)
Let's talk about it.
Ben Callahan (28:24)
Let's talk about it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (28:25)
no, I definitely agree. think it, I stated earlier, it's like a spectrum, right? There's, there's, there's the hard governance and rules and boundaries. And then there's the other, and it, for me, it's always up for, for a conversation. But in my org, I have so many enterprise tools that use our like hundreds. And so if we allowed everybody to do whatever and I have, you know, my user,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (28:25)
no, I definitely agree. think it, I stated earlier, it's like a spectrum, right? There's, there's, there's the hard governance and rules and boundaries. And then there's the other, and it, for me, it's always up for, for a conversation. But in my org, I have so many enterprise tools that use our like hundreds. And so if we allowed everybody to do whatever and I have, you know, my user.
Ben Callahan (28:25)
no, I definitely agree. think it, I stated earlier, it's like a spectrum, right? There's, there's, there's the hard governance and rules and boundaries. And then there's the other, and it, for me, it's always up for, for a conversation. But in my org, I have so many enterprise tools that use our like hundreds. And so if we allowed everybody to do whatever, and I have, you know, my user,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (28:54)
personas are also so broad, like from a entry level backend engineer managing an admin tool to, you know, a full front end team with UX design and everything. it, yeah, there's a
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (28:54)
personas are also so broad, like from a entry level backend engineer managing an admin tool to, you know, a full front end team with UX design and everything. it, yeah, there's a
Ben Callahan (28:54)
personas are also so broad, like from a entry level backend engineer managing an admin tool to, you know, a full front end team with UX design and everything. it, yeah, there's a
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (29:09)
Okay, we got a lot of hands. This is great. Diana, what's up? Hello. I was hearing all this conversation and thinking that I'm at a point where I, the point is to drive consistency, but at the same time we have a system that is kind of bad and we're doing a next gen design system. So people are straddling this consistency innovation boundary. And what
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (29:09)
Okay, we got a lot of hands. This is great. Diana, what's up? Hello. I was hearing all this conversation and thinking that I'm at a point where I, the point is to drive consistency, but at the same time we have a system that is kind of bad and we're doing a next gen design system. So people are straddling this consistency innovation boundary. And what
Ben Callahan (29:09)
Okay, we got a lot of hands. This is great. Diana, what's up? Hello. I was hearing all this conversation and thinking that I'm at a point where I, the point is to drive consistency, but at the same time we have a system that is kind of bad and we're doing a next gen design system. So people are straddling this consistency innovation boundary. And what
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (29:38)
I've done so far was with my team was to have a panel where we see what people design so we can find those moments to drive consistency. But I was curious what tools or methods everybody here is using to ensure that some of these pockets of innovation make it back into the wider system where I scaled back. And right now I have a database in my head
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (29:38)
I've done so far was with my team was to have a panel where we see what people design so we can find those moments to drive consistency. But I was curious what tools or methods everybody here is using to ensure that some of these pockets of innovation make it back into the wider system where I scaled back. And right now I have a database in my head
Ben Callahan (29:38)
I've done so far was with my team was to have a panel where we see what people design so we can find those moments to drive consistency. But I was curious what tools or methods everybody here is using to ensure that some of these pockets of innovation make it back into the wider system where I scaled back. And right now I have a database in my head
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (30:07)
⁓ We have GitHub, we have a table. We used to have like a Figma, drop all your snowflakes in here, just in case in the future we want to scale that to the system level and that it still doesn't feel like it works. So I'm just curious how you deal with that, like bringing the expressiveness back in when it makes sense.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (30:07)
⁓ We have GitHub, we have a table. We used to have like a Figma, drop all your snowflakes in here, just in case in the future we want to scale that to the system level and that it still doesn't feel like it works. So I'm just curious how you deal with that, like bringing the expressiveness back in when it makes sense.
Ben Callahan (30:07)
⁓ We have GitHub, we have a table. We used to have like a Figma, drop all your snowflakes in here, just in case in the future we want to scale that to the system level and that it still doesn't feel like it works. So I'm just curious how you deal with that, like bringing the expressiveness back in when it makes sense.
The best luck that we had was from specifically pairing with teams. like workshops or embedding with teams or doing reverse embeds. ⁓ We created all this contribution guidance, but the best contributions that we got, think, were just the easiest things. We were successful at getting new icons contributed. But when it came to actually shaping new patterns, ⁓ we tried this idea called players labs.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (30:28)
The best luck that we had was from specifically pairing with teams. like workshops or embedding with teams or doing reverse embeds. ⁓ We created all this contribution guidance, but the best contributions that we got, think, were just the easiest things. We were successful at getting new icons contributed. But when it came to actually shaping new patterns, ⁓ we tried this idea called players labs.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (30:28)
The best luck that we had was from specifically pairing with teams. like workshops or embedding with teams or doing reverse embeds. ⁓ We created all this contribution guidance, but the best contributions that we got, think, were just the easiest things. We were successful at getting new icons contributed. But when it came to actually shaping new patterns, ⁓ we tried this idea called players labs.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (30:58)
where it was like, hey team, are you doing something novel in your product and do you want us to run a workshop with you or a player's team member to embed with you? And so we actually got enough specificity and know-how about what problem that team was solving to then bring it back. we would, in some cases, a designer from a product team would lead that.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (30:58)
where it was like, hey team, are you doing something novel in your product and do you want us to run a workshop with you or a player's team member to embed with you? And so we actually got enough specificity and know-how about what problem that team was solving to then bring it back. we would, in some cases, a designer from a product team would lead that.
Ben Callahan (30:58)
where it was like, hey team, are you doing something novel in your product and do you want us to run a workshop with you or a player's team member to embed with you? And so we actually got enough specificity and know-how about what problem that team was solving to then bring it back. we would, in some cases, a designer from a product team would lead that.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (31:27)
Like he would say, hey, I'm really, I want to lead this ⁓ new location picker pattern project because I see it across a bunch of different teams. So it wasn't always just the system team leading those, but yeah, I found more like workshop, office hours, directly pairing with people to be the most successful for bringing those things back. ⁓ the issue is though, like getting that visibility.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (31:27)
Like he would say, I'm really, I want to lead this ⁓ new location picker pattern project because I see it across a bunch of different teams. So it wasn't always just the system team leading those, but yeah, I found more like workshop, office hours, directly pairing with people to be the most successful for bringing those things back. ⁓ And the issue is though, like getting that visibility.
Ben Callahan (31:27)
Like he would say, I'm really, I want to lead this ⁓ new location picker pattern project because I see it across a bunch of different teams. So it wasn't always just the system team leading those, but yeah, I found more like workshop, office hours, directly pairing with people to be the most successful for bringing those things back. ⁓ And the issue is though, like getting that visibility.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (31:55)
So I would need to be really connected with the managers of those teams to know and like to specifically ask them, what do you have coming up that could be bringing some interesting new solutions? Anybody else have an answer to that question from Diana? Was that Guy or Christine? Okay, go ahead.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (31:55)
So I would need to be really connected with the managers of those teams to know and like to specifically ask them, what do you have coming up that could be bringing some interesting new solutions? Anybody else have an answer to that question from Diana? Was that Guy or Christine? Okay, go ahead.
Ben Callahan (31:55)
So I would need to be really connected with the managers of those teams to know and like to specifically ask them, what do you have coming up that could be bringing some interesting new solutions? Anybody else have an answer to that question from Diana? Was that Guy or Christine? Okay, go ahead.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (32:17)
Hello. ⁓ Yeah, I just typed this in the chat as well. But what we started to do on ⁓ our team is to leverage our design ambassadors. This is one ⁓ design ambassador per like group of products currently. And
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (32:17)
Hello. I just typed this in the chat as well. But what we've started to do on our team is to leverage our design ambassadors. This is one ⁓ design ambassador per like group of products currently. And
Ben Callahan (32:17)
Hello. I just typed this in the chat as well. But what we started to do on our team is to leverage our design ambassadors. This is one ⁓ design ambassador per like group of products currently. And
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (32:39)
like starting next week, but they've done it a little bit previously. We will be reviewing all of our community support requests and enhancement requests with them. That way we can directly see, okay, who needs what, where are all the commonalities? And this will be at a really high level because it'll just be a little chunk of the meeting once a month. But once we get to that enhancement and need more details, we'll already know exactly who to reach out to.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (32:39)
like starting next week, but they've done it a little bit previously. We will be reviewing all of our community support requests and enhancement requests with them. That way we can directly see, okay, who needs what, where are all the commonalities? And this will be at a really high level because it'll just be a little chunk of the meeting once a month. But once we get to that enhancement and need more details, we'll already know exactly who to reach out to.
Ben Callahan (32:39)
like starting next week, but they've done it a little bit previously. We will be reviewing all of our community support requests and enhancement requests with them. That way we can directly see, okay, who needs what, where are all the commonalities? And this will be at a really high level because it'll just be a little chunk of the meeting once a month. But once we get to that enhancement and need more details, we'll already know exactly who to reach out to.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (33:08)
and things like that. yeah. Nice. That's super helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Isabel, what's up? I was going to say something on a very similar vein. Well, I will add to that is that I think what helps out of that is that it provides a framework for other designers to say, OK, hey, this is what innovating in the system looks like and can look like, which essentially is working together with the system.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (33:08)
and things like that. yeah. Nice. That's super helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Isabel, what's up? I was going to say something on a very similar vein. Well, I will add to that is that I think what helps out of that is that it provides a framework for other designers to say, OK, hey, this is what innovating in the system looks like and can look like, which essentially is working together with the system.
Ben Callahan (33:08)
and things like that. yeah. Nice. That's super helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Isabel, what's up? I was going to say something on a very similar vein. Well, I will add to that is that I think what helps out of that is that it provides a framework for other designers to say, OK, hey, this is what innovating in the system looks like and can look like, which essentially is working together with the system.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (33:36)
And yeah, it provides kind of that framework for them, which I think has been a bit of the problem is like, how do we interact, at least for me, how do we interact with the system and how do we like push the boundaries of it without seeing the system as the enforcer? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I love, I've always loved the idea of pushing other teams work that push the system in interesting ways or do something completely different and just like celebrating that. Yeah, that's great.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (33:36)
And yeah, it provides kind of that framework for them, which I think has been a bit of the problem is like, how do we interact, at least for me, how do we interact with the system and how do we like push the boundaries of it without seeing the system as the enforcer? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I love, I've always loved the idea of pushing other teams work that push the system in interesting ways or do something completely different and just like celebrating that. Yeah, that's great.
Ben Callahan (33:36)
And yeah, it provides kind of that framework for them, which I think has been a bit of the problem is like, how do we interact, at least for me, how do we interact with the system and how do we like push the boundaries of it without seeing the system as the enforcer? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I love, I've always loved the idea of pushing other teams work that push the system in interesting ways or do something completely different and just like celebrating that. Yeah, that's great.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (34:05)
Laura, what's up? Just sort of in the same vein of ⁓ this conversation around how you enforce, govern, and have these relationships, I think what I love about it and what I love the most about this job is the human aspect of it. Obviously, it's different across organizations how complex, big they are, but it's that relationship building. It's a relationship that you create with other designers.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (34:05)
Laura, what's up? Just sort of in the same vein of ⁓ this conversation around how you enforce, govern, and have these relationships, I think what I love about it and what I love the most about this job is the human aspect of it. Obviously, it's different across organizations how complex, big they are, but it's that relationship building. It's a relationship that you create with other designers.
Ben Callahan (34:05)
Laura, what's up? Just sort of in the same vein of ⁓ this conversation around how you enforce, govern, and have these relationships, I think what I love about it and what I love the most about this job is the human aspect of it. Obviously, it's different across organizations how complex, big they are, but it's that relationship building. It's a relationship that you create with other designers.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (34:32)
how they trust you in a lot of ways. And when you do have to enforce things and tell them like, sorry, like, you know, keep it this way. Like this is, you know, the guidelines are set for a reason or like, hey, you know, we hadn't thought of that. You're pushing, like we want to expand. Like, let's absolutely explore that. Let's work together. Could this be a contribution from your team? So yeah, I just love that, like, regardless of how like systematic and also like this AI space that we're all in, like you need people and you need humans and you need to like build relationships. So.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (34:32)
how they trust you in a lot of ways. And when you do have to enforce things and tell them like, sorry, like, you know, keep it this way. Like this is, you know, the guidelines are set for a reason or like, hey, you know, we hadn't thought of that. You're pushing, like we want to expand. Like, let's absolutely explore that. Let's work together. Could this be a contribution from your team? So yeah, I just love that, like, regardless of how like systematic and also like this AI space that we're all in, like you need people and you need humans and you need to like build relationships. So.
Ben Callahan (34:32)
how they trust you in a lot of ways. And when you do have to enforce things and tell them like, sorry, like, you know, keep it this way. Like this is, you know, the guidelines are set for a reason or like, hey, you know, we hadn't thought of that. You're pushing, like we want to expand. Like, let's absolutely explore that. Let's work together. Could this be a contribution from your team? So yeah, I just love that, like, regardless of how like systematic and also like this AI space that we're all in, like you need people and you need humans and you need to like build relationships. So.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (35:02)
⁓ Just wanted to say that. Yeah, love it. the challenge with that, I totally agree with that 100%. The challenge I think in a lot of these things is just the scalability of it, right? If you're working in a large org, like, like just any of you said, for that to have visibility, I needed to have relationships with the managers of these teams. Well, I mean, how many, how many people were you trying to maintain a relationship with, you know, like over 50? Yeah, like, how do we scale that? You know, like, yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (35:02)
I just wanted to say that. Yeah. Love it. the challenge with that, I totally agree with that 100%. The challenge I think in a lot of these things is just the scalability of it, right? If you're working in a large org, like, like just any of you said, for that to have visibility, I needed to have relationships with the managers of these teams. Well, I mean, how many, how many people were you trying to maintain a relationship with? know, like over 50. Yeah. Like how do we scale that? You know, like, yeah.
Ben Callahan (35:02)
I just wanted to say that. Yeah. Love it. the challenge with that, I totally agree with that 100%. The challenge I think in a lot of these things is just the scalability of it, right? If you're working in a large org, like, like just any of you said, for that to have visibility, I needed to have relationships with the managers of these teams. Well, I mean, how many, how many people were you trying to maintain a relationship with? You know, like over 50. Yeah. Like how do we scale that? You know, like, yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (35:30)
I always, I honestly, I, people have been able to find solutions that have scaled well, I would love to hear that too, because it has been a challenge. Yeah. Steven. I just remembered, have a note kind of on this topic that enablement is greater than restriction. Design systems are not creative handcuffs. Design systems should free teams from minutiae, affording greater creativity and solving unique product needs. So this, think.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (35:30)
I always, honestly, if people have been able to find solutions that have scaled well, I would love to hear that too, because it has been a challenge. Steven? I just remembered I have a note kind of on this topic that enablement is greater than restriction. Design systems are not creative handcuffs. Design systems should free teams from minutiae, affording greater creativity and solving unique product needs. So this, think,
Ben Callahan (35:30)
I always, honestly, if people have been able to find solutions that have scaled well, I would love to hear that too, because it has been a challenge. Steven? I just remembered I have a note kind of on this topic that enablement is greater than restriction. Design systems are not creative handcuffs. Design systems should free teams from minutiae, affording greater creativity and solving unique product needs. So this, think,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (35:58)
kind of drives it. My thoughts on design systems in general is that like the core of the consistency part should happen at sort of like a pretty fundamental level of the design system. You know, like what are the things that really like strike us as unique to the brand that we need to make sure are expressed across all of our products? Like let's get those right. Let's make those enforceable and sort of let's govern those things. But everything else is sort of up for grabs. And if your system does not provide
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (35:58)
Kind of drives it. My thoughts on design systems in general is that like the core of the consistency part should happen at sort of like a pretty fundamental level of the design system. You know, like what are the things that really like strike us as unique to the brand that we need to make sure are expressed across all of our products? Like let's get those right. Let's make those enforceable and sort of let's govern those things. But everything else is sort of up for grabs. And if your system does not provide
Ben Callahan (35:58)
Kind of drives it. My thoughts on design systems in general is that like the core of the consistency part should happen at sort of like a pretty fundamental level of the design system. You know, like what are the things that really like strike us as unique to the brand that we need to make sure are expressed across all of our products? Like let's get those right. Let's make those enforceable and sort of let's govern those things. But everything else is sort of up for grabs. And if your system does not provide
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (36:28)
the sort of building blocks for people to have creative freedom, then you're maybe going a little too far with your, you know, handcuffs. We'll say it that way. Or even, or even it's, it is your architecture. So then that was the problem. That's why I had written that article because we could say, oh no, it's the system is just the starting point. But if the reality is different, if the reality is that any time that you try to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (36:28)
the sort of building blocks for people to have creative freedom, then you're maybe going a little too far with your, you know, handcuffs. We'll say it that way. Or even, or even it's, is your architecture. So then that was the problem. That's why I had written that article because we could say, oh no, it's the system is just the starting point. But if the reality is different, if the reality is that any time that you try to
Ben Callahan (36:28)
the sort of building blocks for people to have creative freedom, then you're maybe going a little too far with your, you know, handcuffs. Yeah, that way. Or even or even it's it is your architecture. So then that was the problem. That's why I had written that article, because we could say, no, it's the system is just the starting point. But if the reality is different, if the reality is that any time that you try to
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (36:57)
create a custom layout using one of the, like a card component, you have to override things, then the shape of the tool isn't actually matching the thing that you're saying. ⁓ But I totally agree with the idea that actually being more opinionated about the design language ⁓ and how to show up as your product and as your brand, and then having more flexibility in the way that people compose.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (36:57)
create a custom layout using one of the, like a card component, you have to override things, then the shape of the tool isn't actually matching the thing that you're saying. ⁓ But I totally agree with the idea that actually being more opinionated about the design language ⁓ and how to show up as your product and as your brand, and then having more flexibility in the way that people compose.
Ben Callahan (36:57)
create a custom layout using one of the, like a card component, you have to override things, then the shape of the tool isn't actually matching the thing that you're saying. ⁓ But I totally agree with the idea that actually being more opinionated about the design language ⁓ and how to show up as your product and as your brand, and then having more flexibility in the way that people compose.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (37:26)
To me, it got us some better success with people being able to solve things in the best way. There's two things I want to hit on before we end. We're getting tight on time. These things always go so fast. one is, Sonia, thought, could you explain the concept of accelerators, diluters, and differentiators for folks who haven't read that article? And then the second thing I'd love to hit on is just this concept. This is just an idea that we saw kind of came out of the conversation around this idea of a differentiation budget.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (37:26)
To me, it got us some better success with people being able to solve things in the best way. There's two things I want to hit on before we end. We're getting tight on time. These things always go so fast. one is, Sonia, thought, could you explain the concept of accelerators, diluters, and differentiators for folks who haven't read that article? And then the second thing I'd love to hit on is just this concept. This is just an idea that we saw kind of came out of the conversation around this idea of a differentiation budget.
Ben Callahan (37:26)
To me, it got us some better success with people being able to solve things in the best way. There's two things I want to hit on before we end. We're getting tight on time. These things always go so fast. one is, Sonia, thought, could you explain the concept of accelerators, diluters, and differentiators for folks who haven't read that article? And then the second thing I'd love to hit on is just this concept. This is just an idea that we saw kind of came out of the conversation around this idea of a differentiation budget.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (37:56)
Let's start with your image from your article. Yeah. So I basically wrote that design system components can fall under these three categories. And so I'll start with diluters. Diluters are those components that have tons of props that are trying to be everything for everyone, solve all the problems that maybe started out clean, but then as different teams needed more things, you just kept adding props and they're just rigid to work with.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (37:56)
Let's start with your image from your article. Yeah. So I basically wrote that design system components can fall under these three categories. And so I'll start with diluters. Diluters are those components that have tons of props that are trying to be everything for everyone, solve all the problems that maybe started out clean, but then as different teams needed more things, you just kept adding props and they're just rigid to work with.
Ben Callahan (37:56)
Let's start with your image from your article. Yeah. So I basically wrote that design systems components can fall under these three categories. And so I'll start with diluters. Diluters are those components that have tons of props that are trying to be everything for everyone, solve all the problems that maybe started out clean, but then as different teams needed more things, you just kept adding props and they're just rigid to work with.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (38:26)
So a table that has like 50 props, right? That would be a diluter. ⁓ And on the other end of the spectrum, you have your accelerators, which is, all right, break that down into even smaller pieces. You have a table header, you have a table cell, you have a table row. ⁓ And once you have those pieces, then consumers can build those into their differentiators.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (38:26)
So a table that has like 50 props, right? That would be a diluter. ⁓ And on the other end of the spectrum, you have your accelerators, is, all right, break that down into even smaller pieces. You have a table header, you have a table cell, you have a table row. ⁓ And once you have those pieces, then consumers can build those into their differentiators.
Ben Callahan (38:26)
So a table that has like 50 props, right? That would be a diluter. ⁓ And on the other end of the spectrum, you have your accelerators, which is, all right, break that down into even smaller pieces. You have a table header, you have a table cell, you have a table row. ⁓ And once you have those pieces, then consumers can build those into their differentiators.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (38:53)
So they can take those pieces and they can build an inventory table that has a different display of information than a reports table, perhaps. So that was basically the TLDR of that framework. I love this. I feel like it's such a smart way to sort of assess your existing components. Like that's the use case I really found to be compelling was like,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (38:53)
So they can take those pieces and they can build an inventory table that has a different display of information than a reports table, perhaps. So that was basically the TLDR of that framework. I love this. I feel like it's such a smart way to sort of assess your existing components. Like that's the use case I really found to be compelling was like,
Ben Callahan (38:53)
So they can take those pieces and they can build an inventory table that has a different display of information than a reports table, perhaps. So that was basically the TLDR of that framework. I love this. I feel like it's such a smart way to sort of assess your existing components. Like that's the use case I really found to be compelling was like,
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (39:20)
I could take this model and I could go look at every component I have that exists right now in my system and say, well, that's an accelerator, but that is definitely a deluder, you know? And then it also gives you a framework for breaking diluters down into things that can be more composable, you know? I think that's a really smart, thank you for sharing that with us. And then we've got 10 minutes here. So, ⁓ anything else on that? before we move beyond that concept, is that something that resonates with folks?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (39:20)
I could take this model and I could go look at every component I have that exists right now in my system and say, well, that's an accelerator, but that is definitely a deluder, you know? And then it also gives you a framework for breaking diluters down into things that can be more composable, you know? I think that's a really smart, thank you for sharing that with us. And then we've got 10 minutes here. So ⁓ anything else on that? before we move beyond that concept, is that something that resonates with folks?
Ben Callahan (39:20)
I could take this model and I could go look at every component I have that exists right now in my system and say, well, that's an accelerator, but that is definitely a deluder, you know? And then it also gives you a framework for breaking diluters down into things that can be more composable, you know? ⁓ I think that's a really smart, thank you for sharing that with us. And then we've got 10 minutes here. So ⁓ anything else on that? before we move beyond that concept, is that something that resonates with folks?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (39:50)
Yes, no. Go ahead, Matt. I was just going to ask if you're saying if you have any other examples or if the group has any other examples of diluters, I'm still trying to understand it. Yeah, one example that I had actually in my article was just a card. ⁓ So we had a card component that had too many props built into it. So it had like it has a card has a header. It has sections. It has.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (39:50)
Yes, no. Go ahead, Matt. I was just going to ask if you're saying if you have any other examples or if the group has any other examples of diluters, I'm still trying to understand it. Yeah, one example that I had actually in my article was just a card. ⁓ So we had a card component that had too many props built into it. So it had like it has a card has a header. It has sections. It has
Ben Callahan (39:50)
Yes, no. Go ahead, Matt. I was just going to ask if you're saying if you have any other examples or if the group has any other examples of diluters, I'm still trying to understand it. Yeah, one example that I had actually in my article was just a card. ⁓ So we had a card component that had too many props built into it. So it had like it has a card has a header. It has sections. It has
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (40:20)
I think if you added the footer, it automatically added a divider ⁓ above the footer. So it was making too many assumptions about layout and composition without knowing what you were displaying. turning the card into a card that... Yeah, card is a bad word on this. To just being a... It's literally just a container. And then you can lay out the information within that container however you want.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (40:20)
I think if you added the footer, it automatically added a divider above the footer. So it was making too many assumptions about layout and composition without knowing what you were displaying. turning the card into a card that... Yeah, card is a bad word on this. To just being a... It's literally just a container. And then you can lay out the information within that container however you want.
Ben Callahan (40:20)
I think if you added the footer, it automatically added a divider above the footer. So it was making too many assumptions about layout and composition without knowing what you were displaying. turning the card into a card that... Yeah, card is a bad word on this. To just being a... It's literally just a container. And then you can lay out the information within that container however you want.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (40:50)
So that was another example. Also, ⁓ text field. ⁓ If you could have a text field that has all of these different props, like text field that displays a number, text field that displays a password, but you could also break that out into password field, number field.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (40:50)
So that was another example. Also, ⁓ text field. ⁓ You could have a text field that has all of these different props, like text field that displays a number, text field that displays a password. But you could also break that out into password field, number field.
Ben Callahan (40:50)
So that was another example. Also, ⁓ text field. ⁓ You could have a text field that has all of these different props, like text field that displays a number, text field that displays a password. But you could also break that out into password field, number field.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (41:11)
And I wonder if like the, you know, like my head goes right away to like, okay, well you're, giving control to consuming teams, right? In terms of like, if it's just a container, I can put anything I want in there, but that's not what you're saying. It's not anything you want. It's like, Hey, there's a bunch of things that you can put in here. And these are all very sort of specifically designed as well. And so it's that sort of like, it's like building the smaller things so that people can build the bigger things. Is that a fair way?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (41:11)
And I wonder if like the, you know, like my head goes right away to like, okay, well you're, giving control to consuming teams, right? In terms of like, if it's just a container, I can put anything I want in there, but that's not what you're saying. It's not anything you want. It's like, Hey, there's a bunch of things that you can put in here. And these are all very sort of specifically designed as well. And so it's that sort of like, it's like building the smaller things so that people can build the bigger things. Is that a fair way?
Ben Callahan (41:11)
And I wonder if like the, you know, like my head goes right away to like, okay, well you're, giving control to consuming teams, right? In terms of like, if it's just a container, I can put anything I want in there, but that's not what you're saying. It's not anything you want. It's like, Hey, there's a bunch of things that you can put in here. And these are all very sort of specifically designed as well. And so it's that sort of like, it's like building the smaller things so that people can build the bigger things. Is that a fair way?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (41:39)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So if somebody needs ⁓ a container that actually displays a lot of, needs to display a lot of badges instead of just text. Yeah. Got it. Steven. Yacine, I kind of want to throw a wrench at you and see what you do with it. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (41:39)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So if somebody needs a container that actually displays a lot of, needs to display a lot of badges instead of just text. Yeah. Got it. Steven. Yacine, I kind of want to throw a wrench at you and see what you do with it. ⁓
Ben Callahan (41:39)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So if somebody needs a container that actually displays a lot of, needs to display a lot of badges instead of just text. Yeah. Got it. Steven. Yesenia I kind of want to throw a wrench at you and see what you do with it. ⁓
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (41:57)
I'll just put it this way. How do you account for these diluters in teams who couldn't build those things by themselves?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (41:58)
I'll just put it this way. How do you account for these diluters in teams who couldn't build those things by themselves?
Ben Callahan (41:58)
I'll just put it this way. How do you account for these diluters in teams who couldn't build those things by themselves?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (42:06)
So basically they're adding a prop because or they're adding a prop to an existing design system. the design system team is adding props to solve for, you know, teams who don't know how to build these things themselves. They require, you know, the expert development or design, you know, work that design system teams are going to afford a organization. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (42:06)
So basically they're adding a prop because or they're adding a prop to an existing design system. the design system team is adding props to solve for, you know, teams who don't know how to build these things themselves. They require, you know, the expert development or design, you know, work that design system teams are going to afford a organization. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (42:06)
So basically they're adding a prop because or they're adding a prop to an existing design system. the design system team is adding props to solve for, you know, teams who don't know how to build these things themselves. They require, you know, the expert development or design, you know, work that design system teams are going to afford a organization. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (42:35)
I don't know if this is the best solution, but we did have to, at one point, draw the line and say, adding additional props to the components, it isn't going to work. We're moving away from that. And in that case, we can offer to help that team. We can help, again, bring a developer, embed a developer with that team to help them ideally train them up and teach them. So again, it's not the best for scale.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (42:35)
I don't know if this is the best solution, but we did have to, at one point, draw the line and say, adding additional props to the components, it isn't going to work. We're moving away from that. And in that case, we can offer to help that team. We can help, again, bring a developer, embed a developer with that team to help them ideally train them up and teach them. So again, it's not the best for scale.
Ben Callahan (42:35)
I don't know if this is the best solution, but we did have to, at one point, draw the line and say, adding additional props to the components, it isn't going to work. We're moving away from that. And in that case, we can offer to help that team. We can help, again, bring a developer, embed a developer with that team to help them ideally train them up and teach them. So again, it's not the best for scale.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (43:05)
Yeah. And this is a, this is a problem we bump up against in almost every one of these sessions though, which is the skill of consuming teams, right? And whose job is it to level them up in the tooling, in the frameworks? mean, this is just an ongoing challenge that I think we're, have to face. And we have strong opinions on both sides. Like some of us, I think would say, it's not my job to teach you how to use Figma, you know, it's not my job to teach you how to compose things. Right. And some of us would say, heck yeah, it is like, I want to be.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (43:05)
Yeah. And this is a, this is a problem we bump up against in almost every one of these sessions though, which is the skill of consuming teams. Right. And whose job is it to level them up in the tooling in the frameworks? I mean, this is just an ongoing challenge that I think we're, have to face. And we have strong opinions on both sides. Like some of us, I think would say, it's not my job to teach you how to use Figma, you know, it's not my job to teach you how to compose things. Right. And some of us would say, heck yeah, it is like, I want to be.
Ben Callahan (43:05)
Yeah. And this is a, this is a problem we bump up against in almost every one of these sessions though, which is the skill of consuming teams. Right. And whose job is it to level them up in the tooling in the frameworks? I mean, this is just an ongoing challenge that I think we're, have to face. And we have strong opinions on both sides. Like some of us, I think would say, it's not my job to teach you how to use Figma, you know, it's not my job to teach you how to compose things. Right. And some of us would say, heck yeah, it is like, I want to be.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (43:33)
as helpful and sort of like educational as I can. And I think this is a culture decision in my mind. It's like, we have an organization where the expectation is high in terms of skill and we hire highly skilled people, then yeah, then maybe that's the expectation that they should know these things, right? But if we're an organization that has a learning culture where we hire folks who don't have as much experience and we train them up, then yeah, maybe that's everybody's job, you know?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (43:33)
as helpful and sort of like educational as I can. And I think this is a culture decision in my mind. It's like, we have an organization where the expectation is high in terms of skill and we hire highly skilled people, then yeah, then maybe that's the expectation that they should know these things, right? But if we're an organization that has a learning culture where we hire folks who don't have as much experience and we train them up, then yeah, maybe that's everybody's job, you know?
Ben Callahan (43:33)
as helpful and sort of like educational as I can. And I think this is a culture decision in my mind. It's like, we have an organization where the expectation is high in terms of skill and we hire highly skilled people, then yeah, then maybe that's the expectation that they should know these things, right? But if we're an organization that has a learning culture where we hire folks who don't have as much experience and we train them up, then yeah, maybe that's everybody's job, you know?
I don't know if there's right or wrong here, but yeah, the scale problem is real too with this stuff. Awesome folks. Good conversation. Okay. Last little bit here. ⁓ this idea of a differentiation budget. ⁓ I can't remember who it was that sort of came up with the concept of performance budgets, but that's what my mind kept drifting to, which was like, you know, the idea that we could say, Hey, there's a, there's a limited amount of bits and bytes that you're permitted to do to use up when you release this thing out into the production.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (44:01)
I don't know if there's right or wrong here, but yeah, the scale problem is real too with this stuff. Awesome folks. Good conversation. Okay. Last little bit here. ⁓ this idea of a differentiation budget. ⁓ I can't remember who it was that sort of came up with the concept of performance budgets, but that's what my mind kept drifting to, which was like, you know, the idea that we could say, Hey, there's a, there's a limited amount of bits and bytes that you're permitted to do to use up when you release this thing out into the production.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (44:01)
I don't know if there's right or wrong here, but yeah, the scale problem is real too with this stuff. Awesome folks. Good conversation. Okay. Last little bit here. ⁓ this idea of a differentiation budget. ⁓ I can't remember who it was that sort of came up with the concept of performance budgets, but that's what my mind kept drifting to, which was like, you know, the idea that we could say, Hey, there's a, there's a limited amount of bits and bytes that you're permitted to do to use up when you release this thing out into the production.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (44:31)
And so that concept of a performance budget is easy to track because it's like I can measure the weight of a thing before it goes over the wire, you and I can say the total package size is this. And if I cross that threshold, I can flag that, stop the build, ask people to come and make things smaller, you know. But the same thing could have we could do something like that with differentiation if we could measure how different is how different is this thing that you're trying to visually.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (44:31)
And so that concept of a performance budget is easy to track because it's like I can measure the weight of a thing before it goes over the wire, you and I can say the total package size is this. And if I cross that threshold, I can flag that, stop the build, ask people to come and make things smaller, you know. But the same thing could have we could do something like that with differentiation if we could measure how different is how different is this thing that you're trying to visually.
Ben Callahan (44:31)
And so that concept of a performance budget is easy to track because it's like I can measure the weight of a thing before it goes over the wire, you and I can say the total package size is this. And if I cross that threshold, I can flag that, stop the build, ask people to come and make things smaller, you know. But the same thing could have we could do something like that with differentiation if we could measure how different is how different is this thing that you're trying to visually.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (44:57)
then we could say, hey, there's a certain budget that you're allotted to differentiate. Now, I don't know if this would work or not, but it's just a concept and I just thought I would toss it out there. Has anybody thought about something like this? ⁓ Something you've seen or considered?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (44:57)
then we could say, hey, there's a certain budget that you're allotted to differentiate. Now, I don't know if this would work or not, but it's just a concept and I just thought I would toss it out there. Has anybody thought about something like this? ⁓ Something you've seen or considered?
Ben Callahan (44:57)
then we could say, hey, there's a certain budget that you're allotted to differentiate. Now, I don't know if this would work or not, but it's just a concept and I just thought I would toss it out there. Has anybody thought about something like this? ⁓ Something you've seen or considered?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (45:13)
Nobody.
Ben Callahan (45:13)
Nobody.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (45:13)
Nobody.
Go ahead. No, I haven't. No, I'm kidding. ⁓ mean, technically no, but I feel like I'm kind of ⁓ punk, kind of, or I want to like, we saying, am I still a designer, for example, if I on design systems? Pardon me is like, yeah, I'm still a designer. I can still maybe do this stuff. So I kind of like to pitch in every once in a while, just like, I call it my secret menu projects, like usually accessibility related, like I'll like kind of pitch it for like a team.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (45:17)
Go ahead. No, I haven't. No, I'm kidding. ⁓ mean, technically no, but I feel like I'm kind of ⁓ punk, kind of, or I want to like, we saying, like, am I still a designer, for example, if I on design systems? Pardon me is like, yeah, I'm still a designer. I could still maybe do this stuff. So I kind of like to pitch in every once in a while, just like, I call it my secret menu projects, like usually accessibility related, like I'll like kind of pitch it for like a team.
Ben Callahan (45:17)
Go ahead. No, I haven't. No, I'm kidding. ⁓ mean, technically no, but I feel like I'm kind of ⁓ punk, kind of, or I want to like, we saying, like, am I still a designer, for example, if I on design systems? Pardon me is like, yeah, I'm still a designer. I could still maybe do this stuff. So I kind of like to pitch in every once in a while, just like, I call it my secret menu projects, like usually accessibility related, like I'll like kind of pitch it for like a team.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (45:44)
but not really tell my boss sometimes. But she always finds out and she's always happy. But I kind of like, they'll ask me like, can I do this? And I'd be like, okay, just do it quietly. Cause I want to see what happens. Like I want to see it in production for myself and my own eyes. Like I know it's against the rules, but like, I want to see if it's cool. And then if it works, then I can bring it into the system. And if it doesn't work, I don't have to say I helped with it at all. I love it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (45:44)
but not really tell my boss sometimes. But she always finds out and she's always happy. But I kind of like, they'll ask me like, can I do this? And I'd be like, okay, just do it quietly. Cause I want to see what happens. Like I want to see it in production for myself and my own eyes. Like I know it's against the rules, but like, I want to see if it's cool. And then if it works, then I can bring it into the system. And if it doesn't work, I don't have to say I helped with it at all. I love it.
Ben Callahan (45:44)
but not really tell my boss sometimes. But she always finds out and she's always happy. But I kind of like, they'll ask me like, can I do this? And I'd be like, okay, just do it quietly. Cause I want to see what happens. Like I want to see it in production for myself and my own eyes. Like I know it's against the rules, but like, I want to see if it's cool. And then if it works, then I can bring it into the system. And if it doesn't work, I don't have to say I helped with it at all. I love it.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (46:12)
I love it. You're teaching us all your tricks. Isabelle, what's up? I have a bit of an informal way to do this, but we have a few teams who work specifically on AI in our product. that's been working with them really closely has been really good just for in general showing the org. But in regards to this, I kind of set a bit of a differentiation budget for them just because it's under the wing of innovation. Not to say that there aren't rules there, but yeah, for sure.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (46:12)
I love it. You're teaching us all your tricks. Isabelle, what's up? I have a bit of an informal way to do this, but we have a few teams who work specifically on AI in our product. that's been working with them really closely has been really good just for in general showing the org. But in regards to this, I kind of set a bit of a differentiation budget for them just because it's under the wing of innovation. Not to say that there aren't rules there, but yeah, for sure.
Ben Callahan (46:12)
I love it. You're teaching us all your tricks. Isabelle, what's up? I have a bit of an informal way to do this, but we have a few teams who work specifically on AI in our product. that's been working with them really closely has been really good just for in general showing the org. But in regards to this, I kind of set a bit of a differentiation budget for them just because it's under the wing of innovation. Not to say that there aren't rules there, but yeah, for sure.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (46:42)
something that goes a little bit tied to innovation where we're at. So it's more of like an instinctual thing than it is like a measured sort of metric in that case, right? And I wonder if that's just like, that's just how we, we probably operate kind of in this way, right? Like we're looking and we're saying, okay, how different is this? Is it different for good reasons? You know, so we're, making those judgments already, but I think, I guess something like this would be putting real numbers around it, you know, Brandon.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (46:42)
something that goes a little bit tied to innovation where we're at. So it's more of like an instinctual thing than it is like a measured sort of metric in that case, right? And I wonder if that's just like, that's just how we probably operate kind of in this way, right? Like we're looking and we're saying, okay, how different is this? Is it different for good reasons? So we're making those judgments already, but I guess something like this would be putting real numbers around it. Brandon.
Ben Callahan (46:42)
something that goes a little bit tied to innovation where we're at. So it's more of like an instinctual thing than it is like a measured sort of metric in that case, right? And I wonder if that's just like, that's just how we probably operate kind of in this way, right? Like we're looking and we're saying, okay, how different is this? Is it different for good reasons? So we're making those judgments already, but I guess something like this would be putting real numbers around it. Brandon.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (47:11)
⁓ I actually have a question and I'm sorry you said it. I may missed it. But are we drawing a line between what is differentiation and what we're calling drift?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (47:11)
⁓ I actually have a question and I'm sorry you said it, I may missed it. But are we drawing a line between what is differentiation and what we're calling drift?
Ben Callahan (47:11)
⁓ I actually have a question and I'm sorry you said it, I may missed it. But are we drawing a line between what is differentiation and what we're calling drift?
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (47:22)
Just any I'll you take that.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (47:22)
Just any I'll let you take that.
Ben Callahan (47:22)
Just send me out, I'll you take that.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (47:27)
So, well, okay, so it depends, right? So what I would call drift, like we created guidelines for how merchants should, how common action should appear inside the product. So if you have an ad action, what iconography do you use? What language do you use? If you're deleting, if you're removing. So there's things that would feel confusing.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (47:27)
So, well, okay, so it depends, right? So what I would call drift, like we created guidelines for how merchants should, how common action should appear inside the product. So if you have an ad action, what iconography do you use? What language do you use? If you're deleting, if you're removing. So there's things that would feel confusing.
Ben Callahan (47:27)
So, well, okay, so it depends, right? So what I would call drift, like we created guidelines for how merchants should, how common action should appear inside the product. So if you have an ad action, what iconography do you use? What language do you use? If you're deleting, if you're removing. So there's things that would feel confusing.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (47:55)
because immersion is doing the same thing and it's showing up in different ways. So that I would call drift. ⁓ When it comes to differentiation, it's the opposite. It's two different, two things that are actually different look the same. And so that's when you want to encourage the differentiation. You want it to look as accurate as possible to what it actually is. If that makes sense. That's great explanation. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (47:55)
because immersion is doing the same thing and it's showing up in different ways. So that I would call drift. ⁓ When it comes to differentiation, it's the opposite. It's two different, two things that are actually different look the same. And so that's when you want to encourage the differentiation. You want it to look as accurate as possible to what it actually is. If that makes sense. That's a great explanation. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (47:55)
because immersion is doing the same thing and it's showing up in different ways. So that I would call drift. ⁓ When it comes to differentiation, it's the opposite. It's two different, two things that are actually different look the same. And so that's when you want to encourage the differentiation. You want it to look as accurate as possible to what it actually is. If that makes sense. That's a great explanation. Yeah.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (48:25)
All right, folks, we did it again. We're at an hour and we could probably have another hour here. So thank you, Yesenia, for bringing this convo. Yeah, this is great. It really took so fast. It flies. Yeah. A couple of quick announcements. If you haven't connected with Yesenia, please do that. Her website, her LinkedIn, she's got articles coming out on Substack. So please go do that. I'm sure she would love to stay connected with all of you. Redwoods is open, as you know.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (48:25)
All right, folks, we did it again. We're at an hour and we could probably have another hour here. So thank you, Yesenia, for bringing this convo. Yeah, this is great. It really took so fast. It flies. Yeah. A couple of quick announcements. If you haven't connected with Yesenia, please do that. Her website, her LinkedIn, she's got articles coming out on Substack. So please go do that. I'm sure she would love to stay connected with all of you. Redwoods is open, as you know.
Ben Callahan (48:25)
All right, folks, we did it again. We're at an hour and we could probably have another hour here. So thank you, Yesenia, for bringing this convo. Yeah, this is great. It really took so fast. It flies. Yeah. A couple of quick announcements. If you haven't connected with Yesenia, please do that. Her website, her LinkedIn, she's got articles coming out on Substack. So please go do that. I'm sure she would love to stay connected with all of you. Redwoods is open, as you know.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (48:53)
If you like this kind of engagement, this is what we do. We try to do every day, every week. So jump in, join us. We would love to hear what's going on in your world. ⁓ There's a bunch of articles and things that folks in the Redwoods community have released. so thank you so much for folks who have ⁓ been sharing the things that they're learning. Jump in and check some of those things out.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (48:53)
If you like this kind of engagement, this is what we do. We try to do every day, every week. So jump in, join us. We would love to hear what's going on in your world. ⁓ There's a bunch of articles and things that folks in the Redwoods community have released. so thank you so much for folks who have ⁓ been sharing the things that they're learning. Jump in and check some of those things out.
Ben Callahan (48:53)
If you like this kind of engagement, this is what we do. We try to do every day, every week. So jump in, join us. We would love to hear what's going on in your world. ⁓ There's a bunch of articles and things that folks in the Redwoods community have released. so thank you so much for folks who have ⁓ been sharing the things that they're learning. Jump in and check some of those things out.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (49:15)
Again, these job postings are here and I'm going to take a look at all of your feedback. Thank you so much for dropping that. If you joined late, if you have a minute, I would love for you to answer these two questions. Why do you come to the question and what could we be doing better in 2026? So take a minute and drop an answer in there for me. ⁓ I'll be announcing the release of the podcast of this episode, recap, deep dive, all of it in the next few days. So thank you all so much for being here. Yesenia, you rock. I'm so glad that we got to do this with you. Thank you. Yes, so much fun.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (49:15)
Again, these job postings are here and I'm going to take a look at all of your feedback. Thank you so much for dropping that. If you joined late, if you have a minute, I would love for you to answer these two questions. Why do you come to the question and what could we be doing better in 2026? So take a minute and drop an answer in there for me. ⁓ I'll be announcing the release of the podcast of this episode, recap, deep dive, all of it in the next few days. So thank you all so much for being here. Yesenia, you rock. I'm so glad that we got to do this with you. Thank you. Yes, so much fun.
Ben Callahan (49:15)
Again, these job postings are here and I'm going to take a look at all of your feedback. Thank you so much for dropping that. If you joined late, if you have a minute, I would love for you to answer these two questions. Why do you come to the question and what could we be doing better in 2026? So take a minute and drop an answer in there for me. ⁓ I'll be announcing the release of the podcast of this episode, recap, deep dive, all of it in the next few days. So thank you all so much for being here. Yesenia you rock. I'm so glad that we got to do this with you. Thank you. Yes, so much fun.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording avo 1280x720 (49:45)
see you all soon.
GMT20260129 164443 Recording gvo 1280x720 (49:45)
see you all soon.
Ben Callahan (49:45)
see you all soon.