Futures of Listening with Radiophrenia

In the four and final episode of Futures of Listening Season 1, we travelled to Glasgow, Scotland, and met with Mark Vernon and Stevie Jones from Radiophrenia, a Glasgow art radio collective. We discussed the birth of Radiophrenia, its ever-growing audience, and how it helped examine and reshape how we listen.

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Mark Vernon is a Glasgow based sound artist who works with found tapes and acousmatic presence. His work explores themes of magnetic memory, audio archaeology, voyeurism and nostalgia. A rich collection of domestic tape recordings; audio letters, dictated notes, home sing-alongs, answer-phone messages and other lost voices often find their way into his unorthodox soundworlds. A keen advocate of radio as an art form, he is a founding member of Glasgow art radio collective, Radiophrenia. His solo music projects have been published through labels including Kye, Flaming Pines, Persistence of Sound, Entr’acte, Canti Magnetici and Gagarin records.

Stevie Jones is a musician, sound artist, engineer and researcher based in Glasgow. From a background in post-rock, DIY and free-improv music scenes, he has collaborated extensively in dance, theatre and experimental film with organisations such as Scottish Dance Theatre, LUX and National Theatre of Scotland. He tours internationally with Arab Strap and is a member of improvising ensemble The New String Collective. Stevie co-directs and curates radio-art festival Radiophrenia and has had work broadcast on Wavefarm, Kunst Radio, WORM FM and the BBC’s Late Junction. He has performed at sound art festivals such as Counterflows, Sonica, Jupiter Rising, Wysing Arts Festival and Tectonics and recent releases includes work on Café OTO’s Takuroku, Chemikal Underground and Glasgow University’s 4-M. Stevie is in his 2nd year of a practice-based PhD in sonic arts at Glasgow University, researching experimental radio documentary and improvisatory, site-responsive performance.

What is Futures of Listening?

In the midst of ever growing geopolitical and socioeconomic tensions both locally and internationally, is listening to the others ever possible? If we are hopeful that it is, how will our ways of listening need to change in the near future? In this new podcast series, join Professor Suk-Jun Kim and sound artist SHHE, as they bring together guests from across the globe to ask, ‘What can artists do to imagine and encourage such possible futures of listening?’ Futures of Listening is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen in collaboration with Sonica Glasgow.

Su [00:00:11] Welcome to Futures of Listening, a new podcast series brought to you by Professor Suk Jun Kim and sound artist, SHHE. In the midst of ever-growing geopolitical and socioeconomic tensions, both locally and internationally, is listening to the others ever possible? If we are hopeful that it is, how will our ways of listening need to change in the near future? In this new podcast series, join Jun and Su as they bring together guests from across the globe to ask, what can artists and creatives do to imagine and encourage such possible futures of listening? This podcast series is brought to you in partnership with Sonica Glasgow and University of Aberdeen. Thank you for joining us.

Jun [00:01:13] Welcome. My name is Suk Jun Kim. I'm a Professor of Electroacoustic Music and Sound Art at the University of Aberdeen. And on this occasion, I'm a co-host and co-producer for this podcast series called Futures of Listening. And I have a partner.

Su [00:01:30] I am Su. I am a sound artist, musician and producer based in Dundee in Scotland, and I create and make music under the alias SHHE.

Jun [00:01:38] For our episode we have invited Stevie and Mark from Radiophrenia, so I will hand over to you both so that you can quickly introduce yourself.

Mark [00:01:48] I'm Mark Vernon, I'm a sound artist, radio producer based in Glasgow, part of Radiophrenia, founding member.

Stevie [00:01:56] I'm Stevie Jones, I'm yeah, sort of co director and curator at Radiophrenia and also a sound artist and musician and improviser.

Su [00:02:05] For listeners who might not be aware, could you explain what Radiophrenia is?

Mark [00:02:11] Radiophrenia is a radio art collective and radio station and festival which has been going for ten years now, on a roughly annual basis, and it's usually a two-week long focused twenty-four hours a day broadcast, mostly made up from submissions to an international open call, but with newly commissioned productions and a series of live to air performances that are in front of a theatre audience, but also made with the idea of listeners at home tuning in as well.

Stevie [00:02:53] With an aim I suppose to promote radio art as you know, radio as an art form.

Jun [00:02:58] Yeah, so I have a bunch of questions about Radiohrenia. But before we get to that, I'm really interested in you as a person, as a sound art yourself and a musician yourself. And I know that you have lived in Glasgow for a long time, and along the way and through your journey as a human being, and of course within this one episode we cannot talk about all of those, but perhaps can you tell us a little bit about your journey as a sound artist? How did you become someone who will work with sound and music?

Stevie [00:03:36] Well I started really as a musician, playing in bands and kind of the local DIY music scene, and sort of around, I suppose, Avant folk and post rock and groups, and really part of that community. And putting on events and playing and would end up doing sound because the DIY scene, yeah, someone had to do it. So, we would end up doing sound, you know, recording ourselves and sort of building up those skills. And through doing that, I got involved with theatre and sort of doing sound for theatre, you know, as a way of actually making a living. So, working as a sound engineer in theatre and also as a sound designer. That kind of led me to the radio thing. I actually found quite a sort of dissatisfaction with the sort of hierarchies within a lot of theatre and film and things, and found audio and sound and music quite often sort of taking, you know, getting put on a sort of back burner while other aspects were foregrounded. So that's how I kind of found Radiophrenia, I think, is that kind of led me to the sort of radio and you know, the acousmatic. I remember I submitted work to Radiophrenia and it was playing around with unprescribed narratives and sort of trying to like, have a sort of entirely without text sonically driven narrative - which leaned into the sort of ambiguity of it. And they played it, they liked it.

Su [00:05:13] Phew. I didn't want to ask.

Stevie [00:05:17] And then invited us to come and work as a sound engineer. And I made myself indispensable. And here I am today.

Mark [00:05:22] That is very true.

Jun [00:05:23] Yeah, that's the way to do it, right? How about you, Mark?

Mark [00:05:30] Well my background is Fine Art. I came to Glasgow to study Fine Art on the Masters Fine Art course. And at the time I was working mostly with found objects. And some of those objects were amongst them were tapes that I would find at the flea markets. At Paddy's Market, which is no more, in the Barras. And I was just curious about what was on these tapes, like found recordings, people's home recordings, letters on tape and this kind of thing, and started using those as a basis for very naive early compositions. And then, after finishing the course, we set up a kind of pirate art radio station called Radio Tuesday, with two friends. It was specifically set up as a radio art station, and we just put out an open call to local artists and musicians to submit work and back then, we didn't even have a computer. We just compiled them on a mini disc and then we would go to locations. We were very wary of being caught, so we went to a different location each time we broadcast. And it's just very simple kind of kit, really, you know, it only costs a few hundred pounds.

Jun [00:06:56] Roughly when was it?

Mark [00:06:59] 1998 to early 2000.

Jun [00:07:03] Ok. Both of you, what do you think, has your listening changed over the years? And if so and in what way?

Stevie [00:07:13] Maybe more in a compartmentalised way. I feel like I wear a lot of, this is probably true with yourself, Mark, probably with all of us, wear quite a lot of different hats, whether it's for example, programming Radiophrenia. You know, recently we rebroadcast a lot of stuff and we had a Resonance takeover for a week, where we had a sort of Radiophrenia rewind. And I was in London and actually listening to it. We'd provided you know, a week's solid audio for them to play and was listening on the FM in a way to pieces that I'd listened to multiple times, but always previously I'd been listening to, you know, is the level right there? Is this, you know, or initially does this qualify as radio art or you know, should this be listened to in the evening or in the morning and you know, these kind of things. It was really great to be able to actually just sit and fully engage with it, with a sort of a different hat and as, you know, a listener. But yeah, I could be listening as a sort of an engineer or as a curator, as a musician, as a composer, or just the everyday listening, so I kind of feel like that's increased in my life.

Mark [00:08:25] I think the most significant change in listening for me, actually thinking about it now, was when I started recording sound myself. I mean, I think I'd always been more of a listener. I prefer listening to talking. But I think when I got my first like digital recorder and like a kind of tape four-track Porter Studio, then I started to listen to the world in a different way. I mean, as I found uses for sounds, I started to listen to them in a very different way. When it became material to use and not just something that was there. But also, I think that listening while recording hones your listening, even when you're not in the act of recording and makes you more aware of the environment around you. I mean, I can still zone out like anyone, but I'm very much more aware of sound than I used to be. And sometimes that's not always a good thing. I'm kind of bothered by noise much more. I can't shut my ears off and ignore sounds. So those things have changed, I guess.

Stevie [00:09:49] There's something interesting, for example, if there's some kind of distant drilling noise and then nearby someone slams a door that just happens to coincide with that drilling noise stopping, that's a little moment of joy for me that I think's probably come as being an improviser or someone that assembles, you know, radio pieces, just chancing upon something like that is a little moment of delight.

Su [00:10:13] Yeah, exactly. The world is sound. Actually, it was a question, aside from Radiophrenia as a platform, how listening still informs your practice today or does it inform your practice in another way, compared to when you started to work with sound some years ago?

Mark [00:10:27] I mean it changes all the time that I'm recording, listening, composing. It's all new information that expands your kind of knowledge and experience. So, I guess things change in that way. I mean, it's true when you record sound and work with sound as material, it's hard to kind of cut off from that and see the potential in it for something else, or how it could be used. But at the same time, there are times when I'm not in recording mode and will just listen and can just enjoy listening to particular sounds or a soundscape or an environment. But I don't think you can completely cut off from that. But it's also made me appreciate sounds in a different way. And I think the other thing is, it can get in the way of direct experience, is maybe partially what you're suggesting. Like when people go to a concert, and they spend the whole time looking at it through their mobile phone. But with sound, if you're listening with headphones and good microphones, that for me, it actually amplifies, literally amplifies the sound, but amplifies the experience. You feel more part of it, not less. It doesn't put distance, it..

Stevie [00:11:55] Encourages the kind of focused less thing.

Mark [00:11:57] Yeah.

Stevie [00:11:58] Yeah, I kind of feel like a lot of this proliferation of field recording nowadays maybe, is as much about someone going out and just spending an afternoon just listening, as much as coming away with the recordings. And maybe it doesn't matter so much, if they actually hit record, you know. But I suppose, talking about technology there's also obviously the potential for unearthing these kind of hidden, inaccessible sounds and non-human perspectives, using things like geophones and hydrophones and you know, the electromagnetic sensors and actually, so it does open up new listening possibilities, I suppose. There's definitely that sort of curious relationship with this sort of record button and where suddenly it doesn't seem so magical the second you hit record or something.

Jun [00:12:48] When we listen to sound amplified, what is being amplified? I guess it's not just loudness.

Stevie [00:12:57] I mean, I suppose for me with a lot of experience as recording, I can get excited about how a preamp’s coloured you know, you've got nice preamps here compared to, you know, maybe a zoom recorder or something might not quite have the same, so I can kind of hear that character of sound which I get excited about, which I know lots of people that I certainly spend time with wouldn't even occur to them. But I also get excited about artefacts. That's a big part of radio, isn't it? You know, that's broadcast rather than amplification, but I think it's the same, you know, certainly like valves and things, that kind of crackle and grain of those sounds I think are of those recordings and amplifications are really exciting. That slightly driven sound. So yeah, more than the source, there's also actually the device itself that can be really interesting and characterful.

Mark [00:13:55] Yeah, that's something that I really appreciate as well. Working with tape a lot and with found recordings. It's the grain of analogue sound magnetic tape that..

Stevie [00:14:07] And the sort of deterioration.

Mark [00:14:10] And particularly old recordings that have been weathered well and there's something about that. And, you know, different formats have different connotations and associations as well, historically.

Jun [00:14:27] What was listening to you, back then? Back then, twenty years or thirty years. What is listening to you now?

Stevie [00:14:35] I suppose the big shift would be that there's maybe an awareness, or I probably spend a lot more time thinking about it. So, there's maybe a self-consciousness and a self-awareness about it now. Whereas it would have been just a more, maybe authentic response, or you could say in a way. But now I suppose I think a lot about how we as a listener, it's a creative thing and we're actually in a way unpacking sounds and we're actually contributing with our memories. I suppose that's one thing that's changed. I've got a lot more memories than I did twenty years ago to contextualise, you know. But I suppose the idea that as a listener, we're sort of in a way rebuilding what we're hearing and sort of personalising it, and it's asserting or forcing our own sort of autonomy over what we're hearing. Which is something that I probably do now with a little more awareness that might be what I'm doing, whereas twenty years ago I would have just either delighted, or been appalled by a sound.

Su [00:15:46] There's something really interesting there about this idea of sound as archiving, as documentation. And I wonder if that's something that, as we're getting older and realising that actually, the power in sound becomes something that's even more important these days, in a way.

Mark [00:15:59] I mean, yeah, that was one of my formative experiences with sound really, inheriting an old reel-to-reel tape recorder from, well, it was actually my gran’s lodger who was sort of our granddad. And we had this, the first time we ever became aware of it, my dad had hidden it under the side table and recorded us having breakfast and played it back to us. And that was the first time that I ever heard my voice recorded, and that was quite an interesting thing. My brother at the time was far more interested in it than I was. But I eventually ended up inheriting this in my early twenties, I think, and discovered the tapes that we'd recorded and, you know, amongst them there's a lot of kind of chart recordings, recording off the radio, the top forty of our favourite songs, kind of stopping, rewinding and to cut out the commentary and some of my sister singing who's six years younger than me, like singing nursery rhymes and things. And then, at the end of one of these recordings of the chart show, there was John Pilipenko, my gran's lodger, who like I say was essentially our granddad as we saw him, singing and, you know, it had been recorded over partially, we'd completely wiped most of it. But you know, he'd passed away more than fifteen years before that and hearing that voice was an incredible moment really. I mean, kind of goosebumps and everything, and that that was really affecting and I think that is one of the reasons that I kind of seek out similar lost recordings and try and preserve them, reuse them, kind of give them a new significance in some way. And a new life, perhaps.

Jun [00:18:14] I think this is a really nice point where we can move to Radiophrenia, because when I first heard the name Radiophrenia, very interesting name. I'm sure that you came up with this this name - what was the idea behind?

Mark [00:18:31] I'm kind of responsible for it. I guess, I think even like post Radio Tuesday, I think I'd always had in mind to kind of, perhaps start up a new radio station. And I think I was very aware of other art radio stations and their names, like Radio Topia and Radio Qualia and things like this. And it kind of just popped into my head really, and I didn't really think about what it meant. And Barry, Barry Burns, who also started Radiophrenia with me. I mean he was saying, well, like literally, you know, from the Latin, phrenia would be head, radio head.

Stevie [00:19:18] Or minded, radio minded, yes.

Mark [00:19:22] Yes, that’s better, because I was going to say, we are not Radiohead fans at all.

Jun [00:19:26] It sounds like the phrenia is of course the schizophrenia, oh is it some kind of symptom or pathological condition. And that fits perfectly because radio is also longing for something that is up in the air and phrenia, it's some kind of pathological condition looking for something that is invisible. That's how I came up with this fascination with this word.

Mark [00:19:57] Yeah, we were in conversation with Hildegard Westerkamp recently and she was saying that she found the name hilarious in relation to schizophonia, which is a term that was coined many years ago. And Gregory Whitehead actually gave us a piece called Schizophonia as well, and he enjoyed the association.

Su [00:20:20] I wonder if you could share a little bit about the creation of Radiophrenia, and is it a platform that was created because you felt very much it was missing?

Mark [00:20:28] Yes. So, I mean, that's some of the reason. I mean, having had experience before with Radio Tuesday, I kind of knew that it was, I mean at that time, even sound art was kind of a relatively new term and I knew that just from having this platform, a lot of artists and musicians, well, particularly kind of visual artists were creating sound works for the first time because this platform presented itself. You know, so it's things that wouldn't have happened if that platform wasn't there. Which is, you know, kind of quite inspiring really to kind of keep on with that. So yeah, there was an awareness of that and I mean after that time I'd worked, created work for lots of radio art stations such as Resonance FM and Sound Art Radio in Devon and Wave Farm in America. And there are a lot of one-off radio art festivals or stations, and so I was already aware that there's this kind of global network of people who are interested. And I just thought that it was long overdue that Glasgow or Scotland even had something similar. And I think that longer term stations, like Resonance FM, it’s fantastic what they do, and the programming is brilliant. But I think out of necessity, it being a 365-days-a-year station that's run by volunteers, they all have their own interests, and a lot of the programme is more music oriented. And we really wanted a station that was more specifically for experimental radio art. So really, it's to create a home for this kind of work, the work that wouldn't be broadcast elsewhere, that wouldn't be heard elsewhere, and perhaps wouldn't be made if there wasn't the platform for it to be heard.

Su [00:22:46] There is a really lovely quote from Daniella Watson Hughes. She said ‘Radiophrenia is a collective experience of ephemeral encounters. There's no playback and no way to know who else is listening.’ And I guess I'm thinking about audiences, how do you think that Radiophrenia audiences do tune in?

Stevie [00:23:03] It's so dense that I would be surprised if any two listeners have the same experience. I mean, I certainly know people that listen, maybe in their studio, you know, artists or like in their office at maybe a fixed time, the same time every day. I know people that'll listen just maybe to the commissions at midday, and they'll have that pattern. And then I think there's obviously people that'll tune in a car or something, or while they're cooking, maybe without the same level of focus. But I also know there's people that will sit with a pair of Genelecs, you know, and a notebook and you know, like really focused. Yeah. So yeah, I think a lot of different ways. We've been talking about trying to direct people a little bit more to engage with the schedule and to try and actually pick out what they're going to listen to. But I think it's great that, you know, we talk a lot about sort of work that needs context, for anyone that does just tune in. There's stuff that maybe works better if you actually know what's happening here. But I'm also really excited about people stumbling across it. I love that. I saw Michael Clark, the dancer, was talking about, staging sort of public interventions and just excited that someone - I love the idea of someone just tuning in and stumbling across Radiophrenia. It's quite exciting to me.

Jun [00:24:31] I'm sure you also know that when radio was first invented in the early nineteenth early twentieth centuries, radio was considered to be a medium that is free for all. So, it's free information, free data, free everything. Just the only thing you need to do is tune in. That idea, that aesthetic, seems to be quite relevant with what you are doing. Do you think that Radiophrenia right now still keeps that anarchistic kind of, free information and that kind of freedom, that passion or that underpinning concept is still present in your programming, in your thought when you're working with artists?

Mark [00:25:15] I mean, we hope so. It's one of the reasons that we're attracted to radio because it is an egalitarian medium that anyone pretty much can access it with very basic means and with the stream, just with an internet connection. The accessibility is important and I do think there is still some quite radical experimental work that we broadcast and get sent. So hopefully it's keeping some of that spirit alive. But it's not, I wouldn't say it's as anarchistic as some radio. I mean one of my big earlier influences was Negative Land and their over-the-edge shows, which would be complete chaos. They would have people phoning in and just have open channels for people to contribute into this kind of radio soup collage mess. Which was fantastic. But so, it’s not to that level, but I still think yes, we're hopefully still kind of pushing boundaries of what radio art can be.

Jun [00:26:35] You've been working on Radiophrenia over ten years and usually after ten years or one decade, the people consider that to be okay - one chapter, it's done - and the next chapter is opening. What's the future for Radiophrenia? What kind of dream do you have when you sleep?

Mark [00:26:56] Well, I mean, plans for the future, we've discussed a few of them. More one-off live performances that we will stream as well out with the festival period. Some longer-term commissions, so there's a kind of longer lead-in for production time for more ambitious productions. And also something that we're we are trying to do is to reach out to other arts organisations outside of Glasgow, in the islands, highlands and elsewhere, and build relationships with them and work with them as partners to produce radio with audiences outside the central belt and possibly do broadcasts from there as well, partnership stations.

Stevie [00:27:49] Yeah, where there’s existing stations, FM sort of infrastructures, like Skye FM and places like this.

Mark [00:27:55] Yeah, so it's early days but that is our ambition and what we're working towards now.

Stevie [00:28:03] There's also something that is exciting, because such a big part of Radiophrenia is the open call that, you know, if you ask what does Radiophrenia sound like in the future, we don't quite know. That's gonna be determined by the listeners and the contributors.

Mark [00:28:21] That's the amazing thing about being sent all this work from all around the world. There are always so many surprises and extraordinary pieces that we come across. So it's quite a privilege really, to be in that position, to be listening to that work and being sent it and yeah, having those contributions.

Su [00:28:41] That's perhaps one of my favourite things about Radiophrenia, as a listener. It feels like such an education; you tune in and you never know what you're going to hear, but actually, in the span of a few hours, you could be travelling all across the globe. I love that you can also tune into Radiophrenia no matter where you are around the world. And in terms of that approach to programming, without sharing all of your secrets, how do you approach actually pulling together a daily programme? Is it open to chance as well? Or are there certain things that you feel it would be really nice for people to get a bit of an insight into this particular country, or this particular project, or this particular theme? I'm really curious.

Mark [00:29:18] There is a degree of chance, but it's all quite carefully considered. I mean, sometimes we get praised for curating decisions of putting pieces together that we actually had no intention of really having any relation. And we just say, Oh that yes, totally intentional. But no, I mean it is carefully considered. A lot of it is intuitive, really, I guess, thinking about our own sensibilities and listening habits. Some of it is guided by content, so certain things have to be after a watershed.

Stevie [00:29:58] You're quite right, that watershed's different in lots of other places.

Mark [00:30:03] But also we get sent very long form experimental works that we could broadcast in the day, but mostly we kind of set aside kind of night listening for those. I guess just to give as much time as possible to as many different artists in the prime-time slots. But of course, as we said, in different parts of the world, in Australia they're listening to our night programming for breakfast. Which people do kind of respond to us and tell us how much they've been enjoying that as well. Because that's the thing, it's not about any kind of a hierarchy of the work, it's kind of what fits certain periods mood wise and content wise.

Stevie [00:30:57] Was it Verónica Cerrotta who sent six-hour long recordings from the Amazon and specified when they were recorded. So we were always gonna play them at that time, but then do we play it, at the Brazilian or Argentinian time, or do we play it at – who’s time zone?

Su [00:31:17] I think there's something really wonderful as well about the decision not to archive and to really encourage people to just be present in that moment – and, I mean, so many radio stations and television programmes you can listen back or watch back so easily these days, there's something that's quite true to the form of radio about yeah, tuning in and just staying with that piece.

Stevie [00:31:37] I suppose leaning into the ephemerality of it, isn't it? It's about encouraging this simultaneous listening that we were talking about.

Mark [00:31:45] Well yeah, you kind of hit the nail on the head, really. It is about that, that we're swamped with so much on demand content. Catch-up-listen-again. You know, you can download hard drives full of content that you never get around to watching or listening to. It's about the immediacy of it, it's about it being a shared experience, the communal listening, the community aspect that's there. And yeah, I think that's the key thing really. I know from my own listening habits that, you know, if you can listen anytime, it so often means you don't listen ever. And so, it creates that kind of excitement. It's an event rather than it just being content to be consumed whenever you wish.

Stevie [00:32:40] I remember the impact of certainly one of my first big radio experiences, was the John Peel show in the nineties. People would come into school the next day and go, ‘Did you hear that?’, which just wouldn't have happened if it was catch again. ‘Oh, you need to, you know, you should listen back to this that's on the iPlayer and people probably wouldn't, but you know, there's that real excitement and awareness that people phoning each other immediately after a show. There's that excitement. But it's so exhausting, this constantly available, everything always, you know, a click away.

Su [00:33:18] And then it becomes an incredible archive going back over the ten years as well, just in terms of, what's been included in those programmes over all those years. It'd be so interesting to go back to the first sort of Radiophrenia festival and sort of compare, in a way, and who was tuning in then, who's tuning in now.

Stevie [00:33:33] Forty-five minutes to an hour behind. Almost the whole time. Probably a little slicker now.

Jun [00:33:40] Oh and who else is in the team?

Mark [00:33:45] Yeah. So, there's Stevie Jones, myself, Mark Vernon, Timothea Armour, Elina Bry and Steve Urquhart, who heads up our public engagement programme. But also we have lots of volunteers, workshop leaders, that kind of change on an annual basis.

Stevie [00:34:13] I mean Velta's very involved with the sort of archiving of the sort of filming. We're never quite sure what to do with filming events.

Jun [00:34:21] If you are able to remember the first couple of years, and then now, ninth year or tenth year of submissions, do you find some subtle or drastic differences in the submissions?

Mark [00:34:34] There have been a huge amount of changes. So really, I mean, advertising ourselves as a home for radio and sound art that wouldn't get broadcast elsewhere.

Jun [00:34:46] I'm just curiously have you received any submission these days where it's completely AI generated?

Stevie [00:34:55] Yes. So we are now seeing those. Not lots, because we were expecting lots.

Mark [00:35:03] ..like the choir ones, it was an AI score, but it was humans.

Stevie [00:35:08] Reproduced.

Mark [00:35:10] We've also had an AI radio play which contained AI elements.

Stevie [00:35:17] Aspects of, yeah.

Mark [00:35:18] But yeah, oh well, we have had some completely AI generated music that was so amusical that we broadcast it as well, a good few years ago. But actually, not as much. I mean you were asking about the kind of works that we get sent and changes. There are often themes that kind of emerge, it seems like we get a lot of work on one particular subject, often with no real reason. I guess the only thing is, when you're asking about what listening means to you at the very beginning, really listening, I mean we're hearing all the time, and we can't close our ears. The sounds come in whether we want them to or not. But listening to me, is hearing with attention. Attention is what makes it listening and not just hearing.

Jun [00:36:16] So what's going to happen to our listening? So here, our is not just the individual, on the personal level. So, if we are able to imagine for the society, people in Glasgow or in the UK, even in the biggest scale, whole of humanity if you will, what's going to happen to our listening? If it is going to change, in what way?

Su [00:36:44] Just a small question to end there.

Mark [00:36:47] Well, nobody knows, but I mean there's so much.

Jun [00:36:51] Yeah, it's just speculative, a speculative question.

Mark [00:36:52] There’s so much overload of sound and general content that I think, at some point, there will be a backlash against that.

Stevie [00:37:03] Yeah, digital fatigue. We've kind of talked on that a little bit, haven't we? In the way that..

Mark [00:37:09] And that things that people will seek out, things that are much more minimal and perhaps sounds that are more embedded in their environment in some way. So, creating their own audio environment. And maybe I'm just talking about myself, really. I think that I want to live in a soundproof box where I can decide what sounds happen in it.

Stevie [00:37:36] Well, I kind of agree that there's this kind of digital this streaming culture, you know, that we were s talking about earlier, which I think is related to the way that our listening is, in a way beginning to like train AI, like you're talking about with the whether it's Spotify or even am I right, that WeTransfer now are using things that are being sent via WeTransfer to train AI. So, I kind of feel like there's kind of like we're talking about like field recording coming about the sort of process rather than the creation of the work. I kinda feel like that's something that that people are starting to move or arrive at. I was thinking of this at Glasgow Zine Fest. This sort of, zines have got this renewed significance. I kind of feel like radio and sound, you know, that's offline, the way that our listening is traceable, and you know, could end up, we could find ourselves rejected from getting into visiting like the United States or something, or these border control and policing and monitoring of listening.

Su [00:38:37] Mm-hmm.

Stevie [00:38:37] I think sort of maybe pushing people to back to their Walkmans.

Su [00:38:44] Thank you very much, Mark and Stevie from Radiophrenia for joining us on this episode of Futures of Listening.

Mark [00:38:50] Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us.

Jun [00:38:52] Thank you so much.